Bianchi Press Release

[AMuzi]

https://cyclingindustry.news/bianchi-launches-new-oltre-rc-an-active-aero-hyperbike/

https://www.bianchi.com/bikes/bikes/road/racing-road/oltre-rc/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Bianchi has not been doing well in the pro racing circuit but it isn't the bikes. Building super expensive bikes that can add 1% to the speed of a top end Pro isn't going to help if they don't have one of the 6 top end Pro's to ride for them.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/19/2022 12:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
https://cyclingindustry.news/bianchi-launches-new-oltre-rc-an-active-aero-hyperbike/
>
> https://www.bianchi.com/bikes/bikes/road/racing-road/oltre-rc/

Very pretty video. I've always had an interest in aerodynamics, and I
like the bright blue lines showing where the airstream is supposed to go.

But I'm reminded of something I read long, long ago about the design of
passive solar houses, i.e. the ones that relied heavily on natural
convection for energy efficiency and comfort: "The trouble is, the air
doesn't know it's supposed to follow those arrows."

Also, I know that my racing days are over. (Well, I guess I could enter
what one friend calls "the geezer olympics" ...) Bike modifications that
save 0.2% of the travel time for a guy riding 25 mph don't mean much to me.

And I think that's one of the problems with "bike tech" in general.
Bikes are a very mature technology. Most changes are chasing diminishing
returns, returns that are so diminished they make no difference except
to racers. These days, I'm more interested in practical benefits for
non-racers.

Others' MMV, of course.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I'm wondering how much influence getting bounced out of the world tour teams has to do with them investing (or reinvesting) in the Reparto Corse program. Beyond that, the UCI generally takes a pretty dim view of features that exist strictly for aerodynamic benefit. It will be interesting to see if they shoot down those 'gills' on the head tube. Or, they may be loosening up on that since they allowed the ribs on Gannas world-hour-record breaking TT track bike.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/19/2022 5:44 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ... the UCI generally takes a pretty dim view of features that exist strictly for aerodynamic benefit. It will be interesting to see if they shoot down those 'gills' on the head tube.

I wondered about that too.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I winder about the actual benefit of a streamlined bicycle as
undoubtedly the major source of "drag" is the big fat slob sitting on
the bike.

I use the term "fat" as I read that "Percent of adults aged 20 and
over with overweight, including obesity: 73.6% "
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
https://tinyurl.com/2p962zkm
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Watching/reading cycling technology and wind tunnels and so on, that the
rider is the biggest drag hence clothing having such a effect and one’s
body position and so on.

Not sure that folks weight unless massively so is hugely important, for
aero anyway beyond making very aero postures more uncomfortable/harder to
hold.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Right. As I've said, bike technology is chasing ever diminishing
returns. And as I've said, I recall a scientific article discussing the
potential for improvements. The ultimate bike - a bike with zero weight
and zero drag - would not cause a huge improvement because the bulk of
the weight and drag problem comes from the rider's body.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 19:45:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Recumbents, the two wheel kind, are banned because they're too fast.
They're also too comfortable.

[John B.]

Granted I was being sarcastic but the major source of "drag", i.e.
wind resistance, is the rider. Thus improving the streamlining of the
bicycle, while it may be a valid marketing device really effects the
speed of the cyclist only minutely, if at all.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

It would be interesting to see what a completely non-UCI compliant set of
aero cycling clothing could do.

[John B.]

Or the ultimate in body streamlining (:-)
https://www.shutterstock.com/th/search/world-naked-bike-ride
https://wnbrlondon.uk/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/75/d5/a1/75d5a19902d8df3749155c4e575ed3f3.jpg

That's not clothing, but it might represent some sort of unreasonable
ultimate.

I'm not convinced that such tapering of frontal area would help much,
whether applied to torso, arms or legs. I'd expect flow would detach
before any tapering occurred, and I doubt turbulent flow would do well
at following the shape.

But I don't know. Aerodynamics is very tricky. If it were not, nobody
would pay for wind tunnel time.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

Olympic swimmers have proven that properly designed clothes are more
aero(hydro)dynamic than no clothes.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 01:01:05 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ra...@invalid.com> wrote:

No, bicycle racers look ridiculous enough as it is...

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Not nearly as ridiculous as an adult on a tricycle.

[Roger Merriman]

Clearly the rider has a massive effect tough this is effected by the bike
and what position your in, just hoods vs drops gives a noticeable effect.

In terms of the bike it’s self so deep wheels, or internal cables and so
on, certainly at least one GCN video the road bike (new) was able to equal
a (older) time trial bike as technology has improved if slowly over the
years.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Last I know the only thing the UCI ever banned were types of materials that had been formed to create smooth airflow. Endura's Drag2Zero and Castelli's 4.o come to mind. Or were you tinking of some custom designs not-yet tested?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

This frame as well as the 3d printed frame for Ganna's world-hour effort both boast that the frames are designed to compliment the most optimal aerodynamic position of the rider. As others have pointed out, such changes - even if custom fitted you your own personal physique - would hardly affect our performance, This kind of stuff really only affects those looking for every incremental improvement possible. For people like us, the bike design makes an insignificant difference.

[Catrike Rider]

I'll actually defend your right to have that opinion just as I will
defend your right to wear padded pants.

[Catrike Rider]

No padded pants required...

https://tinyurl.com/26f8jv9e

[AMuzi]

For you.
Until you can't balance a bicycle, at which point a tricycle
is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Catrike Rider]

Or even when you decide you want to ride more comfortably. Nowdays,
most rides involve at least one quick pee-stop, but back "in the day"
I could and did ride 80+ miles without ever "unclipping..." or
whatever the term for releasing clipless. I rode a mountain bike for
many years after suffering ear damage and never had a any real
trouble, but when I saw my first recumbent trike I immediately rushed
home, looked them up, and voila, no more sore butt, wrists and
shoulders and my regular rides began getting longer. Today, when I see
big guys on diamond frame bikes, I kind of feel sorry for them. My
balance problems are much worse now, with occasional bouts of Vertigo,
and I suspect I'd have trouble on a two wheeler. But I still ride.

[Ralph Barone]

I was thinking of that as well as using the clothing to modify the shape of
the rider (round off the chest area, direct airflow around shoulders and
elbows, and perhaps even add the “tail” that Frank(?) had posted). It
would look stupid and be perfectly impractical, but it would draw a line in
the sand on how aero you could get (but a fully faired recumbent would
still be better).

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2022 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/20/2022 4:57 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 4:58:02 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>

>>> ... bicycle racers look ridiculous enough as it is...

>>
>> Not nearly as ridiculous as an adult on a tricycle.
>>
>
> For you.
> Until you can't balance a bicycle, at which point a tricycle is the best
> thing since sliced bread.

I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is fine. But I see
no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being oh so tough.

Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

+1

And some of the bike changes can have practical negative consequences.
One guy in our club sprung for deep rim aero wheels. After a while I
asked him how they were doing in crosswinds. He said "They're terrible.
The bike blows all over the place." He's since abandoned them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/20/2022 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 4:57 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 4:58:02 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ... bicycle racers look ridiculous enough as it is...
>>>
>>> Not nearly as ridiculous as an adult on a tricycle.
>>>
>>
>> For you.
>> Until you can't balance a bicycle, at which point a tricycle is the best
>> thing since sliced bread.
>
> I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is fine. But I see
> no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being oh so tough.

Indeed the gun is due to feeling vulnerable.

>
> Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
> local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.
>

I guess for the social aspect? One of my riding buddies has a E-MTB so he
can keep up or faster on the longer MTB type rides I do when back in wales.

Even with MTB it’s rather hard to mix the two, on road I’d assume it’s
harder? As faster folks ride closer/faster in a group. Even with a higher
speed limiter in USA doesn’t sound terribly good idea!

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2022 11:08 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2022 4:57 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 4:58:02 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ... bicycle racers look ridiculous enough as it is...
>>>>
>>>> Not nearly as ridiculous as an adult on a tricycle.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For you.
>>> Until you can't balance a bicycle, at which point a tricycle is the best
>>> thing since sliced bread.
>>
>> I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is fine. But I see
>> no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being oh so tough.
>
> Indeed the gun is due to feeling vulnerable.

Right. Also known as being timid and feeling paranoid.

>> Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
>> local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.
>>
> I guess for the social aspect?

Sort of. I know the guy, and I know the guys he was attempting to ride
with. The latter are really nice guys, quite a bit younger than I am,
who train rigorously and continuously. They enjoy pushing themselves and
each other. Their rides are really friendly competitions.

The guy with the ebike is also a nice guy, but I'd say with bad judgment
at least regarding this issue. He's years older than I am, inches
shorter yet probably 30 pounds heavier, and that's not muscle weight. He
really had no business going on that ride - and in fact, his ebike
battery was exhausted something like 20 miles from the finish. One of
the fast riders volunteered to switch bikes with him at that point, and
pedaled his 45 pound (?) wonder back to the finish for him.

But even if that had not been the case, why show up with an electrically
powered advantage for what's really a friendly competitive event?

Bicycling has many aspects, and bicyclists have widely varied
capabilities and objectives. That can make group rides complicated if
someone with incompatible characteristics shows up. Really, a person
should make an effort to ascertain a group ride's character before
joining it. One should make sure it fits one's abilities and preferences.

BTW, this problem is not limited to cycling. I've seen similar problems
crop up when hiking, kayaking, playing music, etc. etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

For some reason, during my concussion the hair on my legs grew very long. So when I came to, I shaved it off and was amazed at the difference in speed. I don't believe that "aero" clothing could improve on that enough to be worthwhile.

[Tom Kunich]

The drag of a man on a bike is almost entirely frontal area. Any aero improvements are so small as to be imperceptible. But you might like to try.

[Lou Holtman]

My average speed is 1 to 1.5 km/hr faster in on my aero bike. For some this may be insignificant but it is certainly not imperceptible.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Not convinced by that to be honest, modern faster bikes well are faster, as
wind tunnels have got cheaper folks ie magazines / YouTube folks have been
able to use them for articles etc, and often use more sane speeds than
manufacturers who use Pro speeds and so on.

Possibly non pros with less power could benefit more? Certainly notice the
difference between bikes (I occasionally hire bikes in places) I personally
feel my gravel bike with it’s reasonably more upright position I catch the
wind more than a pure road bike, this said really doesn’t matter to me as
that’s not my focus! I’ll push on, up a steep technical gravel climb or
possibly a road if it’s interesting but rarely fast on flat open roads
which I find dull.

I’d personally say it’s not a huge difference but it is more than marginal
between some bikes at least.

>
>>
>> In terms of the bike it’s self so deep wheels, or internal cables and so
>> on, certainly at least one GCN video the road bike (new) was able to equal
>> a (older) time trial bike as technology has improved if slowly over the
>> years.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 15:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2022 4:57 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 4:58:02 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ... bicycle racers look ridiculous enough as it is...
>>>>
>>>> Not nearly as ridiculous as an adult on a tricycle.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For you.
>>> Until you can't balance a bicycle, at which point a tricycle is the best
>>> thing since sliced bread.
>>
>> I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is fine. But I see
>> no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being oh so tough.
>
>Indeed the gun is due to feeling vulnerable.

Not always: That lady doesn't look very vulnerable.

https://tinyurl.com/nhk7ev5t

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 10:44:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/20/2022 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 4:57 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 4:58:02 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ... bicycle racers look ridiculous enough as it is...
>>>
>>> Not nearly as ridiculous as an adult on a tricycle.
>>>
>>
>> For you.
>> Until you can't balance a bicycle, at which point a tricycle is the best
>> thing since sliced bread.
>
>I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is fine. But I see
>no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being oh so tough.

Bragging about being "oh so tough?" I don't even remember claiming I
was tough, let alone brag about it. I'm 78 years old. Tough is a
channel I can hardly even tune in anymore, and when I do, it's all
snowy....

But if I said anything that frightened you, I'm sorry. I didn't mean
to.. I'll try not to act so tough from now on....

Of course "tough" is a relative thing.. For instance, I'm pretty sure
I'm tougher than you, you seem like sort of a panty waist, but I'm
sure I'm not as tough as... say Ronda Rousey.. I'm sure that gal
could kick both our butts together.. That's why I need a gun. You see
if I come along and catch her kicking your butt, I'd need a gun to
make her stop. I would, too. Us old guy gotta stick together.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2022 4:23 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
> My average speed is 1 to 1.5 km/hr faster in on my aero bike. For some this may be insignificant but it is certainly not imperceptible.

That seems like a surprising improvement. I'm curious.

Are you talking about two road bikes with identical riding position,
clothing, tires, etc?

Also, what average speeds are we talking about? Aero benefit are greater
at higher speeds, generally negligible at low (relative wind) speeds.

A good test would be coasting each bike down a moderate hill and noting
differences.

But then, you're in Netherlands. Can you import a hill?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 10/20/2022 4:41 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 5:57:24 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 23:22:40 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:49:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/19/2022 5:44 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> ... the UCI generally takes a pretty dim view of features that exist
>>>>>>>> strictly for aerodynamic benefit. It will be interesting to see if they
>>>>>>>> shoot down those 'gills' on the head tube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wondered about that too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I winder about the actual benefit of a streamlined bicycle as
>>>>>> undoubtedly the major source of "drag" is the big fat slob sitting on
>>>>>> the bike.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use the term "fat" as I read that "Percent of adults aged 20 and
>>>>>> over with overweight, including obesity: 73.6% "
>>>>>> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
>>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/2p962zkm
>>>>>
>>>>> Watching/reading cycling technology and wind tunnels and so on, that the

>>>>> rider is the biggest drag hence clothing having such a effect and one’s

>>>>> body position and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure that folks weight unless massively so is hugely important, for
>>>>> aero anyway beyond making very aero postures more uncomfortable/harder to
>>>>> hold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> Granted I was being sarcastic but the major source of "drag", i.e.
>>>> wind resistance, is the rider. Thus improving the streamlining of the
>>>> bicycle, while it may be a valid marketing device really effects the
>>>> speed of the cyclist only minutely, if at all.
>>> Clearly the rider has a massive effect tough this is effected by the bike
>>> and what position your in, just hoods vs drops gives a noticeable effect.
>>
>> This frame as well as the 3d printed frame for Ganna's world-hour effort
>> both boast that the frames are designed to compliment the most optimal
>> aerodynamic position of the rider. As others have pointed out, such
>> changes - even if custom fitted you your own personal physique - would
>> hardly affect our performance, This kind of stuff really only affects
>> those looking for every incremental improvement possible. For people like
>> us, the bike design makes an insignificant difference.
>
> Not convinced by that to be honest, modern faster bikes well are faster, as
> wind tunnels have got cheaper folks ie magazines / YouTube folks have been
> able to use them for articles etc, and often use more sane speeds than
> manufacturers who use Pro speeds and so on.
>
> Possibly non pros with less power could benefit more? Certainly notice the
> difference between bikes (I occasionally hire bikes in places) I personally

> feel my gravel bike with it’s reasonably more upright position I catch the
> wind more than a pure road bike, this said really doesn’t matter to me as
> that’s not my focus! I’ll push on, up a steep technical gravel climb or
> possibly a road if it’s interesting but rarely fast on flat open roads
> which I find dull.
>
> I’d personally say it’s not a huge difference but it is more than marginal

> between some bikes at least.
>>
>>>

>>> In terms of the bike it’s self so deep wheels, or internal cables and so

>>> on, certainly at least one GCN video the road bike (new) was able to equal
>>> a (older) time trial bike as technology has improved if slowly over the
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> Roger Merriman
>

First off, I don't know.

But I could see some fraction of 1% being achievable.

That's plenty enough to separate 1st place from everyone
else in a pro race. For riders less measured, the same may
well be lost in the noise.

[Lou Holtman]

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:59:04 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/20/2022 4:23 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> >
> > My average speed is 1 to 1.5 km/hr faster in on my aero bike. For some this may be insignificant but it is certainly not imperceptible.
> That seems like a surprising improvement. I'm curious.
>
> Are you talking about two road bikes with identical riding position,

Yes.

> clothing, tires, etc?

Yes.

> Also, what average speeds are we talking about? Aero benefit are greater
> at higher speeds, generally negligible at low (relative wind) speeds.

I’m in the 30-33 km/hr range over 70-100 km.

>
> A good test would be coasting each bike down a moderate hill and noting
> differences.
>

No hills. My claim is based on 4 seasons of riding the two bikes. I’m not interested in analysing this difference in depth. First I thought it was the new bike effect but it wasn’t when I payed more attention to it over time. According to the measurements by TOUR magazine the aerobike should give me a 10-15 W advantage and riding with a power meter for a couple of years now 10-15 Watt is significant. It is all not that important, but if one say that an aerobike or clothes are imperceptible than I say that this is not true.

> But then, you're in Netherlands. Can you import a hill?

No hills here and like I said I am not interested in analysing this in depth I just ride the two bikes. They are both great bikes.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

What is your average speed on a ride? 35 kph? With a speed like this the small differences in aero drag become perceptible. But at 20 kph there is simply no improvement. Some American pros tell me that Dutch amateurs are faster than they are under practically all conditions. I assume that the difference shows up in very long races and steep climbs.

[Tom Kunich]

This is what irritates me about these guys. They don't ride but they are 4 square criticizing those who do as if you don't know what you're doing.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2022 5:41 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
>
> Possibly non pros with less power could benefit more? Certainly notice the
> difference between bikes (I occasionally hire bikes in places) I personally
> feel my gravel bike with it’s reasonably more upright position I catch the
> wind more than a pure road bike, this said really doesn’t matter to me as
> that’s not my focus! I’ll push on, up a steep technical gravel climb or
> possibly a road if it’s interesting but rarely fast on flat open roads
> which I find dull.
>
> I’d personally say it’s not a huge difference but it is more than marginal
> between some bikes at least.

Offhand, I don't see how slower riders could benefit more from aero
improvement. Drag force is basically a constant*Cd*A*V^2 where V is the
relative airspeed. Power lost to air drag is a constant*Cd*A*V^3

If a rider's V is low, improvements in force or power due to better Cd*A
will be lower.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2022 5:53 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 15:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is fine. But I see
>>> no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being oh so tough.

Which is what Mr. Tricycle has been trying to do, claiming he can ride
so much farther and faster than I can.

>> Indeed the gun is due to feeling vulnerable.
>
> Not always: That lady doesn't look very vulnerable.

<sigh> If she didn't feel vulnerable without the gun, she'd have no
need for the gun. And if you didn't feel vulnerable riding your tricycle
on an empty bike path, you wouldn't carry your gun while riding.

You specifically justified your gun because you said one guy bothered
you, and you said you can't get up out of your tricycle quickly plus you
get dizzy.

Your gun is like that cartoon character's "security blanket" or a little
kid's Teddy Bear. You're scared without it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

A) I _do_ ride. I just don't brag about it.

B) I don't remember you yelling at Sheldon Brown for posting outstanding
technical information here after he could no longer ride.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Not all fears are unreasonable:

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/this-is-a-very-sick-person-mother-has-no-hatred-for-homeless-man-who-stabbed-daughter-in-north-hollywood/

Even attempted subway bombers are no longer safe!

https://nypost.com/2022/10/20/straphanger-hit-with-sword-sheath-on-nyc-subway/

Nice old ladies riding the bus in DC are not safe either:

https://nypost.com/2022/10/20/woman-viciously-attacked-by-teens-on-washington-dc-bus/

[items from current news only]

It's no wonder personal firearm sales are setting records.
That's a rational logical response. Mr Cat is just ahead of
the curve. He's not alone.

[Roger Merriman]

I would assume it’s the same as with most vehicles in that to go faster,
the power demands start to rapidly curve up, ie more power has
progressively less effect. Hence a older 30hp car can get to 60Mph.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Right, the current UCI rules prevent "any clothing which changes the morphology of the rider". They define that even further by limiting 'features' of the clothing to no more than 1mm deviation. The two skinsuits I mentioned both had ridges formed into the fabric that exceeded the 1mm rule. I guess if you were going to go that far, just use a faring.

[Roger Merriman]

Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:59:04 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 4:23 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> My average speed is 1 to 1.5 km/hr faster in on my aero bike. For some
>>> this may be insignificant but it is certainly not imperceptible.
>> That seems like a surprising improvement. I'm curious.
>>
>> Are you talking about two road bikes with identical riding position,
>
> Yes.
>
>> clothing, tires, etc?
>
> Yes.
>
>
>> Also, what average speeds are we talking about? Aero benefit are greater
>> at higher speeds, generally negligible at low (relative wind) speeds.
>
> I’m in the 30-33 km/hr range over 70-100 km.
>>
>> A good test would be coasting each bike down a moderate hill and noting
>> differences.
>>
> No hills. My claim is based on 4 seasons of riding the two bikes. I’m not
> interested in analysing this difference in depth. First I thought it was
> the new bike effect but it wasn’t when I payed more attention to it over
> time. According to the measurements by TOUR magazine the aerobike should
> give me a 10-15 W advantage and riding with a power meter for a couple of
> years now 10-15 Watt is significant. It is all not that important, but if
> one say that an aerobike or clothes are imperceptible than I say that this is not true.
>

Yup that has been my experience either directly or from others be that club
mates or even stuff on you tube and wind tunnel tests, or on the road
tests.

>> But then, you're in Netherlands. Can you import a hill?
>
> No hills here and like I said I am not interested in analysing this in
> depth I just ride the two bikes. They are both great bikes.
>
> Lou
>
>

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Funny how you're criticizing me for stating my opinion that adults on tricycles look ridiculous in _response_ to kitty stating his opinion that racing cyclist look ridiculous, yet you offer no criticism for the tricycle rider for him stating racing cyclist look ridiculous.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I actually don't think _any_ cyclist looks ridiculous. My statement was merely to show how (not) usefull your subjective aesthetic opinion is, and how (not)helpful it is in a group (supposedly) dedicated to productive discussions on bicycles. It was very clearly over both your and Andrews heads. I support any person getting out on a human powered vehicle and generally offer no criticism unless they're riding like an asshole, or criticizing them for their preferred riding style. In otherwords, your opinion is duly noted and summarily dismissed as whining by someone who could never quite get the hang of cycling and is jealous of everyone else that does.

> Nowdays,
> most rides involve at least one quick pee-stop, but back "in the day"
> I could and did ride 80+ miles without ever "unclipping..." or
> whatever the term for releasing clipless. I rode a mountain bike for
> many years after suffering ear damage and never had a any real
> trouble, but when I saw my first recumbent trike I immediately rushed
> home, looked them up, and voila, no more sore butt, wrists and
> shoulders and my regular rides began getting longer. Today, when I see
> big guys on diamond frame bikes, I kind of feel sorry for them.

If I'm ever in the situation where I'm forced to ride a barcalounger with wheels, I won't feel sorry for the guys on racing bikes in full team kits. I'll wax poetically. i'll miss those days and remember them fondly. I feel sorry for you that you feel the need to criticize people for your inability to ride on the bumper of an SUV doing 40 or mix it up in a full elbow-to-elbow sprint at the end of a race with 25 of your closest friends (you know, those people that like to hang around with you? oh, right, I forgot, you don't have any).

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 20:46:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/20/2022 5:53 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 15:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is fine. But I see
>>>> no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being oh so tough.
>
>Which is what Mr. Tricycle has been trying to do, claiming he can ride
>so much farther and faster than I can.
>
>>> Indeed the gun is due to feeling vulnerable.
>>
>> Not always: That lady doesn't look very vulnerable.
>
><sigh> If she didn't feel vulnerable without the gun, she'd have no
>need for the gun.

But she certainly doesn't appear to be vulnerable, does she? Neither
do I.

>And if you didn't feel vulnerable riding your tricycle
>on an empty bike path, you wouldn't carry your gun while riding.

Ok, fair enough. But obviously, if I could be sure the trail was
always going to be empty, I wouldn't feel vulnerable. Past experience
tells me otherwise, as did the park ranger who nodded approval of my
self protection efforts. You apparently feel that where you ride, you
do still ride, don't you, is going to be "empty" of anyone that might
attack you or that somebody else will protect you if they do. The hard
cold fact is that if someone does attack you, the societal members
around at the time will most likely simply begin video recording the
situation.

>You specifically justified your gun because you said one guy bothered

Bothered? No actually, he attacked me to the extent that I would have
been completely justified in shooting him.

>you, and you said you can't get up out of your tricycle quickly plus you
>get dizzy.

Indeed, age alone increases one's vulnersbility. But everybody with
half a wit will take action to mitigate their vulnerability. I ride
alone in more dangerous areas with a gun, you ride with a companion in
less dangerous areas with potentially a lot of people around because
you foolishly rely on others to make you feel safe. I'll never
understand why some folks (you) are so afraid of being self reliant
and hate those of us who are.

>Your gun is like that cartoon character's "security blanket" or a little
>kid's Teddy Bear. You're scared without it.

Actually, security blankets, unlike a gun, are purely non-defensive
items that offer no real protection. The only real protection a little
kid has, hopefully, comes from the people around him/her. It's pretty
much the same with you. You assume, like most children in lilly-white
neighborhoods like yours, will be kept safe by the societal structure
consisting, most likely of men in blue uniforms, who probably vote
Republican, by the way.

Your security blanket, the societal establishment, is as false as a
child's teddy bear.

I don't know about your police, but the LEOs in my area and several of
the counties around me recommend that people be armed. They know that
whereas they do their best to prevent crime, much of their duty
involves finding and arresting the people after they have committed a
crime on the innocent.

Unlike your childish hopes and dreams that society will keep you safe,
or that you will always be able to avoid any danger, many others like
myself, take positive defensive action and proceed pretty much as we
have always done. I have since ridden many times past the location
where I was attacked.

I understand that my positive defensive actions bother you, but I
don't understand why.

[Catrike Rider]

The irony bell rings again.....

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:13:55 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

Ok, Perhaps I should have said "discordant," instead of "ridiculous,"

But you must understand that wearing a skin tight outfit with big pads
on your butt is, indeed a discordant look. Adding a helmet that sits
well atop your head doesn't help, either and then there's the fetal
positioning of the body on the bike. Actually, the women racers in
their skin tight suits and their butts in the air look kind of cute
from every angle other than from behind, but not so much guys.

Many activities use specific clothing and require specific body
positioning, but bike racing, and perhaps wrestling are, IMHO, the
most "discordant."

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 21.10.2022 um 10:29 schrieb Roger Merriman:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 5:41 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Possibly non pros with less power could benefit more? Certainly notice the
>>> difference between bikes (I occasionally hire bikes in places) I personally
>>> feel my gravel bike with it’s reasonably more upright position I catch the
>>> wind more than a pure road bike, this said really doesn’t matter to me as
>>> that’s not my focus! I’ll push on, up a steep technical gravel climb or
>>> possibly a road if it’s interesting but rarely fast on flat open roads
>>> which I find dull.
>>>
>>> I’d personally say it’s not a huge difference but it is more than marginal
>>> between some bikes at least.
>>
>> Offhand, I don't see how slower riders could benefit more from aero
>> improvement. Drag force is basically a constant*Cd*A*V^2 where V is the
>> relative airspeed. Power lost to air drag is a constant*Cd*A*V^3
>>
>> If a rider's V is low, improvements in force or power due to better Cd*A
>> will be lower.
>>

> I would assume it’s the same as with most vehicles in that to go faster,
> the power demands start to rapidly curve up, ie more power has
> progressively less effect. Hence a older 30hp car can get to 60Mph.

Make that 75 to 80, both for cars (Citroen 2CV) and for motor bikes.
But in a 2CV with 4 people, going uphill on the motorway forced you to
firmly stay tucked in the 'crawling lane' in between under-powered trucks.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:28:56 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

Having over 36000 bicycling miles in the dozen years is not likely a
person who does not get the hang of it.

>> Nowdays,
>> most rides involve at least one quick pee-stop, but back "in the day"
>> I could and did ride 80+ miles without ever "unclipping..." or
>> whatever the term for releasing clipless. I rode a mountain bike for
>> many years after suffering ear damage and never had a any real
>> trouble, but when I saw my first recumbent trike I immediately rushed
>> home, looked them up, and voila, no more sore butt, wrists and
>> shoulders and my regular rides began getting longer. Today, when I see
>> big guys on diamond frame bikes, I kind of feel sorry for them.
>
>If I'm ever in the situation where I'm forced to ride a barcalounger with wheels, I won't feel sorry for the guys on racing bikes in full team kits.

.. following each other like a herd of cattle in matching, brightly
colored outfits.

> I'll wax poetically. i'll miss those days and remember them fondly. I feel sorry for you that you feel the need to criticize people for your inability to ride on the bumper of an SUV doing 40

Not so much criticizing, but certainly questioning the sanity of such
a thing...

> or mix it up in a full elbow-to-elbow sprint at the end of a race with 25 of your closest friends (you know, those people that like to hang around with you? oh, right, I forgot, you don't have any).
>

Actually, I have all the friends I need. On the other hand, I'd pay
good money not to have to ride with any of them. They're all really
fine people, but they all talk too much for my tastes.

If the only riding I could do was in a group, I'd sell the bike and
find something else to do.

If the only riding I could do required bight colored outfits, I'd sell
the bike and find something else to do.

If the only riding I could do required always being on the alert for
speeding cars and trucks, I'd sell the bike and find something else to
do.

My rides are for satisfying my desire for solitude. Others, you
perhaps, enjoy, perhaps need??? the frantic exuberance of group
activities. I don't, and although I can and do tolerate it when I
must, I prefer peace and quiet. Others, you perhaps, dislike, perhaps
fear??? being alone. I not only don't fear it, I seek it out.

Group activities bore me to tears. Mindless chatter about
insignificant nonsense and endless group thinking and follow the
leader head nodding.

[AMuzi]

Oh I'm not disputing that tricycles look ridiculous. They
just solve a problem which we do not have.

[Catrike Rider]

As do padded pants solve a problem I do not have....

[Catrike Rider]

By the way, I notice two Catrike dealers in Madison, so you probably
have a few of them wandering around there. One appears to be pretty
close to the "commuter path, which I agree, not anyplace I'd want to
ride." At any rate, different spokes for different folks.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 8:59:08 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:28:56 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I actually don't think _any_ cyclist looks ridiculous. My statement was merely to show how (not) usefull your subjective aesthetic opinion is, and how (not)helpful it is in a group (supposedly) dedicated to productive discussions on bicycles. It was very clearly over both your and Andrews heads. I support any person getting out on a human powered vehicle and generally offer no criticism unless they're riding like an asshole, or criticizing them for their preferred riding style. In otherwords, your opinion is duly noted and summarily dismissed as whining by someone who could never quite get the hang of cycling and is jealous of everyone else that does.
> Having over 36000 bicycling miles in the dozen years is not likely a
> person who does not get the hang of it.

See kitty, that right there is an example of an anecdote. You've offered no proof, only an unsubstantiated claim, which your rhetoric in this forum indicates is likely false.

> >
> >If I'm ever in the situation where I'm forced to ride a barcalounger with wheels, I won't feel sorry for the guys on racing bikes in full team kits.
> .. following each other like a herd of cattle in matching, brightly
> colored outfits.

For some people teamwork isn't a problem, it's a solution, and for many other people, wearing brightly colored outfits is a safety issue.

> > I'll wax poetically. i'll miss those days and remember them fondly. I feel sorry for you that you feel the need to criticize people for your inability to ride on the bumper of an SUV doing 40
> Not so much criticizing, but certainly questioning the sanity of such
> a thing...
> > or mix it up in a full elbow-to-elbow sprint at the end of a race with 25 of your closest friends (you know, those people that like to hang around with you? oh, right, I forgot, you don't have any).
> >
> Actually, I have all the friends I need. On the other hand, I'd pay
> good money not to have to ride with any of them. They're all really
> fine people, but they all talk too much for my tastes.

Someone who you would pay money to keep away from you is a pretty interesting definition of a friend.

>
> If the only riding I could do was in a group, I'd sell the bike and
> find something else to do.
>
> If the only riding I could do required bight colored outfits, I'd sell
> the bike and find something else to do.
>
> If the only riding I could do required always being on the alert for
> speeding cars and trucks, I'd sell the bike and find something else to
> do.

If the only way I could find enjoyment for an activity was through such a narrow set of parameters, I'd find something else to do.

>
> My rides are for satisfying my desire for solitude. Others, you
> perhaps, enjoy, perhaps need??? the frantic exuberance of group
> activities. I don't, and although I can and do tolerate it when I
> must, I prefer peace and quiet. Others, you perhaps, dislike, perhaps
> fear??? being alone. I not only don't fear it, I seek it out.

I have no fear of being alone. The vast majority of my riding is solo, and there have been a number of times I've broken away from a group ride. Last year I raced unattached.

> Group activities bore me to tears.

You've never tried criterium racing.

> Mindless chatter about
> insignificant nonsense and endless group thinking and follow the
> leader head nodding.

I wondering how your 'friends' would feel if the knew you would pay to keep them away from you.

[Tom Kunich]

According to Krygowski who lives in an entirely white area, there isn't any dangers in the US.

[Tom Kunich]

"We" meaning you or I. Krygowski and Flunky remain an unknown.

[Tom Kunich]

Also according to Krygowski, if you have to live around minorities, you live in a "hell hole" and should move away. I can't think of any time that Krygowski hasn't been voicing racism at the top of his lungs and then calling people who do not want illegal border crossings, "racist". I can't think of why that SOB is on this group. He has nothing to add to it. He doesn't ride. And the only thing he seems adept at is calling names.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 07:08:24 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 8:59:08 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:28:56 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I actually don't think _any_ cyclist looks ridiculous. My statement was merely to show how (not) usefull your subjective aesthetic opinion is, and how (not)helpful it is in a group (supposedly) dedicated to productive discussions on bicycles. It was very clearly over both your and Andrews heads. I support any person getting out on a human powered vehicle and generally offer no criticism unless they're riding like an asshole, or criticizing them for their preferred riding style. In otherwords, your opinion is duly noted and summarily dismissed as whining by someone who could never quite get the hang of cycling and is jealous of everyone else that does.
>> Having over 36000 bicycling miles in the dozen years is not likely a
>> person who does not get the hang of it.
>
>See kitty, that right there is an example of an anecdote.

Indeed... <shrug>

> You've offered no proof, only an unsubstantiated claim, which your rhetoric in this forum indicates is likely false.

You get to believe whatever you want. It doesn't change the facts.

<LOL> I'm pretty sure they do. My family and friends are well aware,
and in approval of me being an introvert. I have quite a collection
of shirts, almost all gifts from friends and family, that addess my
personality.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=introvert+shirts&t=i&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

[AMuzi]

> According to Krygowski who lives in an entirely white area, there isn't any dangers in the US.
>

Weirdos and deviants come in all flavors:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/sword-wielding-clown-robs-convenience-store/ar-AA13crjM

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/21/2022 10:09 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> According to Krygowski who lives in an entirely white area, there isn't any dangers in the US.

Tom, for decades I commuted by bike through neighborhoods that were
either ~100% Black, or had a heavy mix of races and ethnicities. Even
though I'm now retired, I still ride through some of those neighborhoods.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

What, are you insinuating that black or mixed race areas are
dangerous. What a ricist thing to say.

[Catrike Rider]

**racist***

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2022 9:16 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/20/2022 7:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 5:53 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 15:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is
>>>>> fine. But I see
>>>>> no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being
>>>>> oh so tough.
>>
>> Which is what Mr. Tricycle has been trying to do, claiming
>> he can ride so much farther and faster than I can.
>>
>>>> Indeed the gun is due to feeling vulnerable.
>>>
>>> Not always: That lady doesn't look very vulnerable.
>>
>> <sigh>  If she didn't feel vulnerable without the gun, she'd
>> have no need for the gun. And if you didn't feel vulnerable
>> riding your tricycle on an empty bike path, you wouldn't
>> carry your gun while riding.
>>
>> You specifically justified your gun because you said one guy
>> bothered you, and you said you can't get up out of your
>> tricycle quickly plus you get dizzy.
>>
>> Your gun is like that cartoon character's "security blanket"
>> or a little kid's Teddy Bear. You're scared without it.
>>
>
>

> Not all fears are unreasonable:...

[more weird and unlikely tales snipped]

As I've said, you scan for the worst and weirdest tail of the normal
curve. Yes, in a country as large as ours, there are strange bad things
that occasionally happen. Perhaps there are more such incidents per
capita here than, say, in Canada or Britain or Germany, but those events
are still rare in the practical sense. (And obviously, out nation's
"armed to the teeth" philosophy is _not_ curing the problem.)

It is _extremely_ unlikely that the average American bicyclist will
_ever_ be physically attacked while riding. Of the tiny percentage who
will be someday attacked, the attack is most likely going to be using a
motor vehicle. Carrying a gun is no practical defense against that.

Seriously, what would a cyclist do if a car sideswiped him and ran him
off the road? Snap his handgun out of its holster and shoot out a rear
tire that's 200 yards away?

> It's no wonder personal firearm sales are setting records. That's a
> rational logical response.

It's no wonder specifically because the gun industry and its political
minions are purposely stoking fear, purposely exaggerating minuscule
dangers. And no, the "gotta get me a gun" response is far from logical.
It's caving into propaganda and destructive fashion.

> Mr Cat is just ahead of the curve. He's not alone.

Mr. Tricycle may not be alone, but he's way out on an extreme fringe. I
doubt very much that even Tom, miserable as he is, carries a handgun
while riding. In over 50 years of riding, I've never met anyone who did
so, including a handful of cops with whom I did many, many miles.

I wonder what people in Canada, Britain, Netherlands, etc. think about
this American craziness: "I need a gun to ride my bike."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

There are quite a lot of things that remain unknown to you, Tom.

If anyone wanted to scan through the history of this group, they'd find
posts describing a super-low tadpole tricycle that I was once given. It
had once belonged to a friend of mine who passed away. It was an
expensive toy, bought sort of on a whim (if you can call a custom build
a whim) back when these things first appeared. He rode it very little,
because he found he preferred his uprights.

After he died at a surprisingly young age, his family gave it to a
friend who eventually passed it on to me. I rode it only on test rides,
determined it was very impractical, and soon gave it away to another
friend who was interested in it. Last I heard, he too rode it very
little and probably has it in storage in his basement.

I had another friend (who once rode self-contained across Ohio in four
days with me) who eventually lost his balance and continued by riding a
low tricycle only on bike paths; and I have a third friend with bad
health who now does the same, but he's feeble enough that his needs a
motor assist. I've met only one other guy with such a machine, also
motor assisted, and I've known him to ride on normal roads only once.

What these last three people all had or have in common is physical
weakness and riding (almost) only on bike paths. If that's what it takes
to keep a person moving, that's fine. But none of them have ever tried
to impress others by claiming they are great riders.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/21/2022 8:59 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:

> Others, you perhaps, dislike, perhaps
> fear??? being alone. I not only don't fear it, I seek it out.

You do fear it, Mr. Tricycle. You do it only while carrying a gun.
That's a practical definition of fear.

I ride solo, I ride with my wife, I ride with other family members, I
ride with one or two friends, I ride on club bike rides with up to 20
people. I ride on country roads, city or suburban streets, highways with
daily traffic counts in the tens of thousands, on paths in our forest
preserve, and yes, rarely on a bike trail if it happens to be on my
route. I ride day and night, sometimes in snow and occasionally in rain
if I can't help it. I ride for recreation, exercise, sociability and
utility.

And I never ride while carrying a gun. I've never needed to be that
fearful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Hopefully, where you ride anyway.

>Of the tiny percentage who
>will be someday attacked, the attack is most likely going to be using a
>motor vehicle.

Not where I ride...

>Carrying a gun is no practical defense against that.

I'm obviously not concerned about that. Are you?

>Seriously, what would a cyclist do if a car sideswiped him and ran him
>off the road? Snap his handgun out of its holster and shoot out a rear
>tire that's 200 yards away?

Why are apparently so concerned about being attacked by a car on your
bike rides, while it never even crosss my mind?

>> It's no wonder personal firearm sales are setting records. That's a
>> rational logical response.
>
>It's no wonder specifically because the gun industry and its political
>minions are purposely stoking fear, purposely exaggerating minuscule
>dangers. And no, the "gotta get me a gun" response is far from logical.

In your opinion anyway, but then you apparently have a positive
opinion of politicians who argue that men should be allowed to
participate in women's sporting events and share their rest rooms and
shower rooms.

>It's caving into propaganda and destructive fashion.
>
>> Mr Cat is just ahead of the curve. He's not alone.
>
>Mr. Tricycle may not be alone, but he's way out on an extreme fringe. I
>doubt very much that even Tom, miserable as he is, carries a handgun
>while riding. In over 50 years of riding, I've never met anyone who did
>so, including a handful of cops with whom I did many, many miles.

Perhaps they did have a gun and didn't tell you about it, you being so
afraid of guns. For a long time I carried my gun fully concealed.
There are many small guns that'd fit nicely in one of those under or
over top bar bags. Some of them are also way more powerful than the
.308 I carry on the bike.

https://ruger.com/products/lcrx/specSheets/5460.html

Fact is that I doubt anyone who passes my on my rides has any idea I
have a gun.

>I wonder what people in Canada, Britain, Netherlands, etc. think about
>this American craziness: "I need a gun to ride my bike."

I wonder why anybody would so wonder. Well, I understand that you
would, of course... You seem to be upset about anybody and everybody
that doesn't do exactly like you do. Such insecurity...

[Catrike Rider]

Who claimed that? I only claim to outperform you and that certainly
wouldn't require a "great rider." You really should dispell your
notion that I'm a great rider. I'm really not.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank started out here denying the very necessity and even existence of the 2nd Amendment. Apparently anything that resembles an AK-47 should be seized and the people who posses them should be throne without trial into prison. Handguns also throw him into a fit of denial of the right to own and carry arms. He has a bitter hatred of the Supreme Court for backing up what the Constitution says.

[Tom Kunich]

After watching Frank admit that he can't ride anymore we again have him lying about riding over hill and dale.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 12:34:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/21/2022 8:59 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
>> Others, you perhaps, dislike, perhaps
>> fear??? being alone. I not only don't fear it, I seek it out.
>
>You do fear it, Mr. Tricycle. You do it only while carrying a gun.
>That's a practical definition of fear.

There are many practical definitions of fear. In my opinion, your fear
of black pickups and bike lanes is a practical definition of your
fear. You also, apparently, have an irrational fear of guns. I take it
that you fear having Trump as your President and you probably take
protective actions against the things you fear. You fear having cars
and trucks pass close to you, so you ride in such a way that they
cannnot pass you. A practical definition of your fear. Whether or not
your protective actions are jutifiable is unknown to me, as are mine
unknown to me.

>I ride solo, I ride with my wife, I ride with other family members, I
>ride with one or two friends, I ride on club bike rides with up to 20
>people. I ride on country roads, city or suburban streets, highways with
>daily traffic counts in the tens of thousands, on paths in our forest
>preserve, and yes, rarely on a bike trail if it happens to be on my
>route. I ride day and night, sometimes in snow and occasionally in rain
>if I can't help it. I ride for recreation, exercise, sociability and
>utility.

Good for you... <shrug>

>And I never ride while carrying a gun.

Of course not. You fear guns and it's good that you do. You'd probably
shoot yourself or some other innocent person if you had to use one.
For people like you, you're better off depending on others for your
protection.

> I've never needed to be that
>fearful.

It's good then, that you don't ride where it's dangerous, IOW, the
high crime areas in the bigger cities around you. I suspect that it's
your fear of such places that makes you avoid them.

There is, according to the stats below, a violent crime is commited in
youngston more often than once a day and a property crime almost 5
time a day. Now obviously, there are some less dangerous areas there,
so the high crime stats in the more dangerous areas are worse than
what's stated.

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/oh/youngstown/crime

[Tom Kunich]

Krygowski's irrational fears are what lead him to strongly believe that communism is the only correct government system. It simply doesn't matter how many times it has failed nor how many lives it cost, he still believes in it so strongly that he would be perfectly willing to trade YOUR life or MINE but not his own for it.

[Ralph Barone]

If I need a gun to ride my bike, I don’t need to ride my bike.

[AMuzi]

On 10/21/2022 2:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 9:16 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2022 7:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/20/2022 5:53 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 15:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose whatever it takes to keep a person moving is
>>>>>>> fine. But I see
>>>>>>> no sense in such a tricycle rider bragging about being
>>>>>>> oh so tough.
>>>>
>>>> Which is what Mr. Tricycle has been trying to do, claiming
>>>> he can ride so much farther and faster than I can.
>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed the gun is due to feeling vulnerable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not always: That lady doesn't look very vulnerable.
>>>>

>>>> <sigh>Â If she didn't feel vulnerable without the gun, she'd

> If I need a gun to ride my bike, I don’t need to ride my bike.
>


In this regard, cycling is no different from walking:
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/woman-brutally-attacked-raped-in-torrance-while-walking-her-dogs/

or driving an auto:
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/shootout-ensues-after-suspects-attempt-robbery-carjacking-on-off-duty-cpd-officer/2973754/

Second place can be fatal or quite painful (see photo in 1st
link)and you just never know...

[current links from this morning's news]

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 10:44:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
> local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

When Mom lived in a Florida trailer park where all the social life
took place on tricyles going round and round, she was full of praise
for the thoughtfulness of the man who bought his crippled mother a
golf cart so that she could hang out with her friends.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 1:45:12 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 10:44:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
> > local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.
>
> Makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> When Mom lived in a Florida trailer park where all the social life
> took place on tricyles going round and round, she was full of praise
> for the thoughtfulness of the man who bought his crippled mother a
> golf cart so that she could hang out with her friends.

Joy, I'm quite sure that I am looked at, at as a pain in the butt because I harp on the small group here of super negative propagandists. But I see bicycling as a social spot. Not necessarily group riding as most people do it, but even as Catrike does it - all alone but loving it. Most of my rides are now all alone, not because I like it that way but because the group that I used to ride with have to race each other to the point that the three fastest guys have given themselves heart attacks. There is still a group and they are slower but they still race against each other so I ride with two other guys when they're doing the same rides I am.

[John B.]

But from reading your first reference a gun, club or knife wouldn't
have helped the victim a bit as from she testimony she was apparently
tackled and beaten severely initially, "before she knew what was
happening" so to speak.

“I was tackled from behind, I heard nothing,”
Before she could defend herself or run away, Young was suddenly pushed
to the ground by a man who attacked her from behind and raped her.

“This person punched me in the face, closed-fisted, 15 to 20 times at
least,” Young said of the vicious attack. “My nose is broken in four
different places and this bone was shattered here [she points to her
upper cheek area.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

So much imaginative blathering!

I may be irritated by some pickup drivers' behavior, but I don't fear
them. I may scorn gun fetishists but I don't fear guns; I occasionally
shoot with friends for fun. I don't fear crime; I've ridden solo and/or
with family members in every area of Youngstown shown on that map. I've
also ridden solo or with others in many areas of Pittsburgh and
Cleveland, in bona fide ghetto areas of Philadelphia and Baltimore, and
many neighborhoods of all shades in Washington DC, and in countless
other cities.

You pretend I'm afraid of things I have done and still do routinely.
You're fantasizing trying to save face.

But you do _not_ ride on roads because you're afraid of inconveniencing
motorists; and you do _not_ even ride on a bike path without carrying
your security blanket - sorry, your security handgun.

It's clear who's fearful and who is not.


- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

What is the lesson, Andrew? Never walk anywhere without carrying a gun?
Never drive anywhere without carrying a gun?

Sheesh. Talk about paranoia!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Your choice. <shrug> I'm not interested in changing your mind.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/21/2022 4:45 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 10:44:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
>> local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.
>
> Makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> When Mom lived in a Florida trailer park where all the social life
> took place on tricyles going round and round, she was full of praise
> for the thoughtfulness of the man who bought his crippled mother a
> golf cart so that she could hang out with her friends.

As I've said, I have no objection to ebikes for social rides. I suspect
we're all going to get to that point eventually.

But cycling athletes' "A" level rides are a different kind of event.
They are competitions, although informal ones. Participants are testing
their abilities against each other, and training hard to improve.
They're pushing themselves hard, which is why some of those rides are
called "sufferfests."

I was once one of those guys in our club. But I've gotten older and
slower, so I can't keep up with the guys that are a generation behind
me. Showing up on an ebike for such a ride smacks of cheating. It
violates the spirit of the event. It would be not much different than me
showing up for such a ride on my BMW motorcycle.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 16:45:06 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 10:44:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
>> local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.
>
>Makes a lot of sense to me.
>
>When Mom lived in a Florida trailer park where all the social life
>took place on tricyles going round and round, she was full of praise
>for the thoughtfulness of the man who bought his crippled mother a
>golf cart so that she could hang out with her friends.

Trailer park trikes are very different from my Catrike. Just like
balloon tire comfort bikes are very different from a racing bike. I've
yet to ever see one on the trails I ride, or even out on the road.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2022 05:43:31 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

But she could have been saved by someone else who had a gun and an
inclination to help. I generally assume some responsibility toward
helping others. A gun might come in handy in such a situation.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:01:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Actually, the facts above don't need to be imagined.

>I may be irritated by some pickup drivers' behavior, but I don't fear
>them. I may scorn gun fetishists but I don't fear guns; I occasionally
>shoot with friends for fun.

Really, <LOL> where would you get a gun?

>I don't fear crime; I've ridden solo and/or
>with family members in every area of Youngstown shown on that map. I've
>also ridden solo or with others in many areas of Pittsburgh and
>Cleveland, in bona fide ghetto areas of Philadelphia and Baltimore, and

I don't believe you. Why would you go to the ghettos? <hint> I'm told
that you can pick up diseases there if you're not careful.

>many neighborhoods of all shades in Washington DC, and in countless
>other cities.

And as I stated, I used to walk the streets of near northside Chicago.
The question is, do you still ride solo in the high crime areas of
Youngston? You remember saying that you mostly ride a tandem for
"longer" rides? Now you're back to pretending to be a "great rider."

>You pretend I'm afraid of things I have done and still do routinely.

Nonsense... I remember all to well your obviously made up story about
a gated community in Florida.

>You're fantasizing trying to save face.

<LOL> More irony..

>But you do _not_ ride on roads because you're afraid of inconveniencing
>motorists; and you do _not_ even ride on a bike path without carrying
>your security blanket - sorry, your security handgun.

<shrug> I'm very proud of what I do. Very happy doing it too. I'm also
happy that it irritates you that I do it.

>It's clear who's fearful and who is not.

Indeed... Everybody fears something. My wife fears poisonous snakes.

I learned through experience, to fear the bends. It can be very
painful. I learned to be very careful, not only when diving, but after
the dive too. It takes a while to clear all the nitrogen out.

I fear blood clots and I always take my blood thinner. Luckily I was
in the hospital for pneumonia when the doctors discovered them in my
lungs. So I guess I fear pneumonia, too.

I used to fear heights. It took a parachute adventure with my daughter
to cure it, but it still bothers me a little to stand on the edge of a
cliff or a tall building. Funny that airplanes don't bother me a bit.
I used to ride (bicycle) to a nearby small airfield and pay to go on
airplane rides. Flying upside down in an open airplane is a thrill.

My daughter and granddaughters fear breast cancer because their mother
and grandmother (great grandmother) had it. They get regular checkups.

I'm also afraid of flash floods and having your home burn down , I've
been caught in both at various times. Fire was when I was a kid.

I'm a little afraid of bulls, having been attacked by one as a kid.

I'm afraid of inattentive drunk drivers too, having had my wife killed
by one.

...and yeah, having several physical limitations, I'd be afraid of
being attacked while riding in certain areas if it wasn't for my gun.
Learned that through experience, too.



>- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:15:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/21/2022 4:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/21/2022 2:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>
>>>

>>> If I need a gun to ride my bike, I don’t need to ride my bike.

>>>
>>
>>
>> In this regard, cycling is no different from walking:
>> https://ktla.com/news/local-news/woman-brutally-attacked-raped-in-torrance-while-walking-her-dogs/
>>
>> or driving an auto:
>> https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/shootout-ensues-after-suspects-attempt-robbery-carjacking-on-off-duty-cpd-officer/2973754/
>>
>> Second place can be fatal or quite painful (see photo in 1st link)and
>> you just never know...
>>
>> [current links from this morning's news]
>
>What is the lesson, Andrew? Never walk anywhere without carrying a gun?
>Never drive anywhere without carrying a gun?
>
>Sheesh. Talk about paranoia!

Actually, the lesson is that you're never really safe.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:25:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/21/2022 4:45 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 10:44:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Similarly, one guy I know bought an ebike so he could keep up with the
>>> local athletes on their "A" level rides. That makes no sense to me either.
>>
>> Makes a lot of sense to me.
>>
>> When Mom lived in a Florida trailer park where all the social life
>> took place on tricyles going round and round, she was full of praise
>> for the thoughtfulness of the man who bought his crippled mother a
>> golf cart so that she could hang out with her friends.
>
>As I've said, I have no objection to ebikes for social rides.

I do. I can tolerate an ebike going under 10 MPH by a person with
limited abilities, but anything above and beyond that is despicable.
It's called bicycling, not motoring.

I suspect
>we're all going to get to that point eventually.

Not me. If and when I can no longer pedal a few miles at a few miles
an hour, the rides will end.

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:15:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/21/2022 4:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/21/2022 2:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>
>>>

>>> If I need a gun to ride my bike, I don’t need to ride my bike.

>>>
>>
>>
>> In this regard, cycling is no different from walking:
>> https://ktla.com/news/local-news/woman-brutally-attacked-raped-in-torrance-while-walking-her-dogs/
>>
>> or driving an auto:
>> https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/shootout-ensues-after-suspects-attempt-robbery-carjacking-on-off-duty-cpd-officer/2973754/
>>
>> Second place can be fatal or quite painful (see photo in 1st link)and
>> you just never know...
>>
>> [current links from this morning's news]
>
>What is the lesson, Andrew? Never walk anywhere without carrying a gun?
>Never drive anywhere without carrying a gun?
>
>Sheesh. Talk about paranoia!

The problem with carrying a gun to protect yourself is that it assumes
a sort of "High Noon" situation but, I suspect, that in most cases it
is quite different. In the example that Andrew gives the woman was
walking down the street and a bloke leaped out of nowhere, knocked her
down, hit her 15 or 20 times and broke her nose and cheek bones.

One reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty_in_the_United_States#Other_nations
shows that 40 to 50 police officers are killed annually with
firearms... and they all had guns.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:25:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Well, in essence, an e-bike is a motorcycle, isn't it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2022 08:10:02 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Further to the above, the Hi Power Cycles Revolution XX, e-bike, is
capable of 70 mph speeds
https://www.makeuseof.com/fastest-ebikes-for-sale/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2022 08:08:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:15:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 10/21/2022 4:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/21/2022 2:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I need a gun to ride my bike, I don’t need to ride my bike.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In this regard, cycling is no different from walking:
>>> https://ktla.com/news/local-news/woman-brutally-attacked-raped-in-torrance-while-walking-her-dogs/
>>>
>>> or driving an auto:
>>> https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/shootout-ensues-after-suspects-attempt-robbery-carjacking-on-off-duty-cpd-officer/2973754/
>>>
>>> Second place can be fatal or quite painful (see photo in 1st link)and
>>> you just never know...
>>>
>>> [current links from this morning's news]
>>
>>What is the lesson, Andrew? Never walk anywhere without carrying a gun?
>>Never drive anywhere without carrying a gun?
>>
>>Sheesh. Talk about paranoia!
>
>The problem with carrying a gun to protect yourself is that it assumes

No, the only problem with carrying guns is that it scares the liberal
fools....

>a sort of "High Noon" situation but, I suspect, that in most cases it
>is quite different. In the example that Andrew gives the woman was
>walking down the street and a bloke leaped out of nowhere, knocked her
>down, hit her 15 or 20 times and broke her nose and cheek bones.
>
>One reference
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty_in_the_United_States#Other_nations
>shows that 40 to 50 police officers are killed annually with
>firearms... and they all had guns.

OtOH, police with guns take down lots of bad guys... even in leftist
run cities.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2022 08:18:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Generally, simply a slow moving motor vehicle.

>Further to the above, the Hi Power Cycles Revolution XX, e-bike, is
>capable of 70 mph speeds
>https://www.makeuseof.com/fastest-ebikes-for-sale/

...and, in most places in the USA, requires the same licences and
insurance as Yamahas, Triumphs, and Harleys.

[Roger Merriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> https://cyclingindustry.news/bianchi-launches-new-oltre-rc-an-active-aero-hyperbike/
>
> https://www.bianchi.com/bikes/bikes/road/racing-road/oltre-rc/

In news that will shock no one, it’s banned or rather it’s not UCI legal
with the fairings fitted.

<https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/bianchi-oltre-rcs-air-deflectors-deemed-illegal-in-races-by-uci>

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Yep. No surprise.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 10/27/2022 5:49 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> https://cyclingindustry.news/bianchi-launches-new-oltre-rc-an-active-aero-hyperbike/
>>
>> https://www.bianchi.com/bikes/bikes/road/racing-road/oltre-rc/
>

> In news that will shock no one, it’s banned or rather it’s not UCI legal

> with the fairings fitted.
>
> <https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/bianchi-oltre-rcs-air-deflectors-deemed-illegal-in-races-by-uci>
>
> Roger Merriman
>

Damn.

And I've been thinking about getting a racing license one
day. For about 52 tears now.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:20:49 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2022 08:08:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:15:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> ><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >>On 10/21/2022 4:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 10/21/2022 2:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If I need a gun to ride my bike, I don’t need to ride my bike.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In this regard, cycling is no different from walking:
> >>> https://ktla.com/news/local-news/woman-brutally-attacked-raped-in-torrance-while-walking-her-dogs/
> >>>
> >>> or driving an auto:
> >>> https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/shootout-ensues-after-suspects-attempt-robbery-carjacking-on-off-duty-cpd-officer/2973754/
> >>>
> >>> Second place can be fatal or quite painful (see photo in 1st link)and
> >>> you just never know...
> >>>
> >>> [current links from this morning's news]
> >>
> >>What is the lesson, Andrew? Never walk anywhere without carrying a gun?
> >>Never drive anywhere without carrying a gun?
> >>
> >>Sheesh. Talk about paranoia!
> >
> >The problem with carrying a gun to protect yourself is that it assumes
> No, the only problem with carrying guns is that it scares the liberal
> fools....

Liberals aren't afraid people with guns. We mock you for claiming to be tough while needing a gun to prove it.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2022 05:48:33 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:20:49 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Oct 2022 08:08:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 19:15:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> ><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On 10/21/2022 4:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> On 10/21/2022 2:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If I need a gun to ride my bike, I don’t need to ride my bike.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> In this regard, cycling is no different from walking:
>> >>> https://ktla.com/news/local-news/woman-brutally-attacked-raped-in-torrance-while-walking-her-dogs/
>> >>>
>> >>> or driving an auto:
>> >>> https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/shootout-ensues-after-suspects-attempt-robbery-carjacking-on-off-duty-cpd-officer/2973754/
>> >>>
>> >>> Second place can be fatal or quite painful (see photo in 1st link)and
>> >>> you just never know...
>> >>>
>> >>> [current links from this morning's news]
>> >>
>> >>What is the lesson, Andrew? Never walk anywhere without carrying a gun?
>> >>Never drive anywhere without carrying a gun?
>> >>
>> >>Sheesh. Talk about paranoia!
>> >
>> >The problem with carrying a gun to protect yourself is that it assumes
>> No, the only problem with carrying guns is that it scares the liberal
>> fools....
>
>Liberals aren't afraid people with guns.

Perhaps you should rethink that given that so many liberal politicians
are actively trying to prevent people from having guns....

> We mock you for claiming to be tough while needing a gun to prove it.

<LOL> I don't claim to be "tough," you silly fool.

[Tom Kunich]

Yeh, I've been crying about that too.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

That's because certain people shouldn't be allowed to have guns. People that leave loaded firearms with arms reach of small children, for example. Regardless of what you might think, there is no general consensus in the liberal political establishment to ban all guns, nor to prevent them from being carried by responsible citizens. There has never been any serious effort to make any changes to the 2nd amendment within the Democratic party.There are most certainly some groups whose position is exactly that of banning guns, but they aren't the majority of those with left leaning tendencies by any stretch of the imagination. The issue is that there are enough irresponsible people with unrestricted access that it makes the general populace inherently unsafe. This is the issue that left-leaning politicians wish to address which is also grossly mis-characterized by the fear-mongers in the NRA. Contrast that with the GOP/NRA position that a few dozen dead kids every year is a price worth paying for them to keep their toys (yes, a gross mis-characterization).

> > We mock you for claiming to be tough while needing a gun to prove it.
> <LOL> I don't claim to be "tough," you silly fool.

Yet you posted a picture of a woman holding a weapon admiring how tough she looked.