Lithium vs Normal grease
Matt O'Toole
On 13 Dec 1996 18:52:34 GMT, jac...@replicant.csci.unt.edu (Bruce
Jackson) wrote:
>In article <markwood-131...@scz-ca19-20.ix.netcom.com>,
>Mark Woodhead <mark...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Lithium grease is a lot lighter than regular grease, and would be
>> good on things like bearings.
>
>Grease is just an oil thickened with soap or other thickeners.
>Lithium is one type of grease and is available in different grades
>like any type of grease; it isn't necessarily lighter than other
>types. Lithium greases in general are good general purpose greases
>but are not good for high temperature applications (which don't occur
>on bicycles). Bicycles are not particularly demanding of lubricants
>so for the most part any grease you have laying around the house will
>work just as well as the "Boutique" greases marketed especially for
>bicycles. Automotive wheel bearing grease works great on bicycles and
>a few dollars will buy a lifetime supply. I personally use engine
>assembly grease on cables, threads, and various sliding parts on
>bicycles and I use a heavy marine grease on hubs, bottom brackets, and
>headsets. My reasoning is that the light motor assembly grease will
>be fine on light-duty applications like cables and threads and a
>heavy marine grease is especially water resistant so it should not
>wash out of bearings as easily. I don't like having to overhaul my
>bicycles more often than necessary.
All good advice. I like to oil my cables with heavy oil, though,
because most of the grease gets wiped off as the cable slides back
into the cable housing. One can "wet out" the strands of the cable
with oil. Using very light grease might be better than heavy grease
for this. Heavy grease doesn't stick to the cables as well, and won't
replenish dry areas as the cable is moved back and forth. Most of it
will probably be wiped off as the cable goes back into the housing
anyway. Anyway, I've noticed that oil works better, and lasts longer
than grease on cables.
>Since I do not get good service
>from headsets I've been wondering if using a grease with EP (extreme
>pressure) additives would help prevent false brinelling. If False
>brinelling is caused by lubrication failure like Mr. Brandt says than
>a grease with extreme film strength may be more appropriate.
Probably not. The false brinelling occurs because the lubricant has
been squeezed out from between the bearing and race, and since the
bearing and race (and grease) are not turning, new lubricant isn't
being introduced. An additive in a lubricant won't help if the
problem is that the lubricant itself is missing.
"EP" additives don't increase film strength, they just have something
in them (like sulfur) that prevents the metal parts from welding
themselves together. Though that sounds like a possible solution, I
still don't think it would work in this case.
>> However, you should NEVER using lithium grease on any coating
>> bushing surfaces. The main thing that comes to mind is the Garlock
>> bushings in RockShox and some other suspension forks. Lithium will
>> break down the coatings on these bushings and cause way premature
>> failure. As a general rule, if it looks like it's got a coating,
>> stay away from lithium grease.
>
>Greases that come in contact with polymers have special considerations
>and you should be especially cautious and follow the manufacturers
>recommendations but otherwise grease is grease when it comes to bikes.
Do follow the manufacturers' recommendations in not using lithium
grease in your suspension fork However, there are many greases
available cheaply in auto parts stores that don't contain lithium.
Any high temperature grease, like automotive wheel bearing grease, the
plainest plain old grease that there is, is probably a good bet. There
is no reason to spend $6 for an ounce of Judy Butter.
A good fork lube tip is to add a *few* drops of heavy oil (90wt-ish)
to the seal area of your fork, and bounce on the fork a few times to
work it in. This will mix with the grease, and help it to re-flow to
where the stanchions have become dry. It will greatly help in
reducing stiction, and keep stiction at bay for much longer. Don't
overdo it, 3 or 4 drops for each leg is all it takes.
Matt O.
James Carroll
Hey,
Does anyone know what performance differences there are between
lithium grease and regular grease? What parts of a bike would I
NOT want to use regular grease and use lithium grease instead?
It seems that most of the places that I'm using Li grease would
work just fine with regular grease.
James
Mark Woodhead
Lithium grease is a lot lighter than regular grease, and would be good on
things like bearings. However, you should NEVER using lithium grease on
any coating bushing surfaces. The main thing that comes to mind is the
Garlock bushings in RockShox and some other suspension forks. Lithium will
break down the coatings on these bushings and cause way premature failure.
As a general rule, if it looks like it's got a coating, stay away from
lithium grease.
Mark
--
ｳThat's the great thing about crayons...they can take you more places than starshipsｲ 給季uiynan, Starship Enterprise
Bruce Jackson
> Lithium grease is a lot lighter than regular grease, and would be
> good on things like bearings.
Grease is just an oil thickened with soap or other thickeners.
Lithium is one type of grease and is available in different grades
like any type of grease; it isn't necessarily lighter than other
types. Lithium greases in general are good general purpose greases
but are not good for high temperature applications (which don't occur
on bicycles). Bicycles are not particularly demanding of lubricants
so for the most part any grease you have laying around the house will
work just as well as the "Boutique" greases marketed especially for
bicycles. Automotive wheel bearing grease works great on bicycles and
a few dollars will buy a lifetime supply. I personally use engine
assembly grease on cables, threads, and various sliding parts on
bicycles and I use a heavy marine grease on hubs, bottom brackets, and
headsets. My reasoning is that the light motor assembly grease will
be fine on light-duty applications like cables and threads and a
heavy marine grease is especially water resistant so it should not
wash out of bearings as easily. I don't like having to overhaul my
bicycles more often than necessary. Since I do not get good service
from headsets I've been wondering if using a grease with EP (extreme
pressure) additives would help prevent false brinelling. If False
brinelling is caused by lubrication failure like Mr. Brandt says than
a grease with extreme film strength may be more appropriate.
> However, you should NEVER using lithium grease on any coating
> bushing surfaces. The main thing that comes to mind is the Garlock
> bushings in RockShox and some other suspension forks. Lithium will
> break down the coatings on these bushings and cause way premature
> failure. As a general rule, if it looks like it's got a coating,
> stay away from lithium grease.
Greases that come in contact with polymers have special considerations
and you should be especially cautious and follow the manufacturers
recommendations but otherwise grease is grease when it comes to bikes.
--
Bruce Jackson | P. O. Box 13886-NT | GAB 550E
UNIX Systems Admin. | Denton TX 76203-3886 | (817)565-2279
Computer Sciences | b.a.j...@ieee.org | FAX (817)565-2799
Univ. of North Texas | http://replicant.csci.unt.edu/~jackson/
Jobst Brandt
James Carroll writes:
> Does anyone know what performance differences there are between
> lithium grease and regular grease? What parts of a bike would I NOT
> want to use regular grease and use lithium grease instead? It seems
> that most of the places that I'm using Li grease would work just
> fine with regular grease.
Lithium is number three on the periodic table of the elements, is
about half as heavy as water, is a highly active metal and has a white
oxide that makes grease opaque white to tan in color, depending on the
base oil and soap matrix. A bicycle has not thermal or environmental
conditions that lithium grease performs better than greenish brown
automotive grease. Typically wheel bearing grease has a convenient
viscosity and body for most bicycle applications and it costs about
1/10 of exotic greases if you buy a one pound can that will probably
outlast the lifetime of the bicycle.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Jobst Brandt
James Carroll writes:
> Does anyone know what performance differences there are between
> lithium grease and regular grease? What parts of a bike would I NOT
> want to use regular grease and use lithium grease instead? It seems
> that most of the places that I'm using Li grease would work just
> fine with regular grease.
Lithium is number three on the periodic table of the elements, is
about half as heavy as water, is a highly active metal and has a white
oxide that makes grease opaque white to tan in color, depending on the
base oil and soap matrix. A bicycle has no thermal or environmental
conditions that lithium grease performs better than greenish brown
automotive grease. Typically wheel bearing grease has a convenient
viscosity and body for most bicycle applications, and it costs about
1/10 of exotic greases. If you buy a one pound can that will probably
Melissa & Jim
jac...@replicant.csci.unt.edu (Bruce Jackson) wrote:
>In article <markwood-131...@scz-ca19-20.ix.netcom.com>,
>Mark Woodhead <mark...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Lithium grease is a lot lighter than regular grease, and would be
>> good on things like bearings.
>Grease is just an oil thickened with soap or other thickeners.
>Lithium is one type of grease and is available in different grades
>like any type of grease; it isn't necessarily lighter than other
>types. Lithium greases in general are good general purpose greases
>but are not good for high temperature applications (which don't occur
>on bicycles). Bicycles are not particularly demanding of lubricants
>so for the most part any grease you have laying around the house will
>work just as well as the "Boutique" greases marketed especially for
>bicycles.
These days, lithium grease IS normal grease.
Bruce's post was close, but backwards. Lithium greases were developed
for their improved high temp performance over their predecessors,
sodium and calcium based greases, which are almost impossible to find
any more. The performance of lithium greases at room temps is the
same as any other grease. Lithium greases consist of oil mixed with a
lithium-based soap and are available in any consistency you can
imagine. The lithium portion has nothing to do with anything that you
need to worry about on a bicycle.
The comment about "coatings" is complete nonsense; far too general to
have any chance whatsoever of having any basis in fact. What kind of
coatings are meant here: paint, plating, anodizing? You might as well
suggest that it will not work on any bike that is painted red.
However it is true that some elastomers react poorly with petroleum
products (that would be the OTHER part of the grease) and should not
be lubricated with any petroleum based grease, whether based on a
lithium soap or otherwise.
There have been previous posts that have suggested that some
suspension parts require special non-petroleum lubricants. I have no
idea if this is true or not, but if it is, my first impression is that
it is an engineering mistake probably done in the name of cost
cutting. There are many excellent petroleum tolerant elastomers
available out there; the cost diffference is minor. Why choose a
material that is incompatable with a lubricant that the seal is likely
to encounter in any bike shop.
Jim
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Melissa Kepner Jim Adney
mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu jim....@mpcug.com
Laura Kepner-Adney
Madison, Wisconsin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Thompson
>Lithium is number three on the periodic table of the elements, is
>about half as heavy as water, is a highly active metal and has a white
>oxide that makes grease opaque white to tan in color, depending on the
>base oil and soap matrix. A bicycle has no thermal or environmental
>conditions that lithium grease performs better than greenish brown
>automotive grease.
Lithium has one advantage that I've found: it's easier to see
when it is contaminated.
>Typically wheel bearing grease has a convenient
>viscosity and body for most bicycle applications, and it costs about
>1/10 of exotic greases. If you buy a one pound can that will probably
>outlast the lifetime of the bicycle.
True enough, but I bought a one pound container of Penzoil #705
lithium grease for about $5 ten years ago and it's only now
running out...
-John (John.T...@ibm.net)
Jane Selin
James Carroll (james....@bpainc.com) wrote:
: Hey,
: Does anyone know what performance differences there are between
: lithium grease and regular grease? What parts of a bike would I
: NOT want to use regular grease and use lithium grease instead?
: It seems that most of the places that I'm using Li grease would
: work just fine with regular grease.
James, I don't think it makes much of a difference unless your riding
you bike underwater, in which case I would recommend the pretty blue
marine grease. I like using the white lithium grease because it shows
wear and or dirt infiltration by it's color change. But that expensive
blue grease sure looks swell. Soooooooo, now after reading this thread I
shall mix the white and blue grease to produce a new product which I will
name "Ajax Titanium baby blue bike and boob lube" . Be a rube and buy a
tube for only $7.49
Ajax Titanium
David Greene
Jane Selin wrote:
> "Ajax Titanium baby blue bike and boob lube" . Be a rube and buy a
> tube for only $7.49
ooh, ooh -- I'll take three... where do I order?!?
(being a practical consumer, I'd like to by the "economy" size tubes
tho')
-David
PCC Bit
:::buzzzzz:::
<<There have been previous posts that have suggested that some
suspension parts require special non-petroleum lubricants. I have no
idea if this is true or not, but if it is, my first impression is that
it is an engineering mistake probably done in the name of cost
cutting>>>
Sorry Jim but you almost had it right too... too bad :)
Rock Shock is VERY specific about NOT using lith based greases in their
shocks. Now, whether thats a engineering mistake or not is open to debate
but if you do use lith grease, you will ruin the seals and MCU's. Another
specific case is with GripShift from SRAM. You MUST use a grease designed
for plastics.. not metals. With all the push for new materials, lightness
and ease of use, there will be more specific greases and oils coming down
the pipe as parts become specialized. The days of using whatever is handy
will be gone.. right or wrong. It's happened to cars, planes, even
lawnmowers. Such is the price of "progress"
Just my 2 cents
Mike
Joshua_Putnam
>Rock Shock is VERY specific about NOT using lith based greases in their
>shocks. Now, whether thats a engineering mistake or not is open to debate
>but if you do use lith grease, you will ruin the seals and MCU's.
Suntour's GreaseGuard instructions also used to specify
non-lithium grease but not non-petroleum grease, saying that
other greases would shrink and harden the seals. The seals don't
seem to mind aluminum-complex grease, or at least mine seem just
fine five years on.
--
Jo...@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh
Melissa & Jim
pcc...@aol.com (PCC Bit) wrote:
>:::buzzzzz:::
><<There have been previous posts that have suggested that some
>suspension parts require special non-petroleum lubricants. I have no
>idea if this is true or not, but if it is, my first impression is that
>it is an engineering mistake probably done in the name of cost
>cutting>>>
>Sorry Jim but you almost had it right too... too bad :)
>Rock Shock is VERY specific about NOT using lith based greases in their
>shocks. Now, whether thats a engineering mistake or not is open to debate
>but if you do use lith grease, you will ruin the seals and MCU's. Another
>specific case is with GripShift from SRAM. You MUST use a grease designed
>for plastics.. not metals. With all the push for new materials, lightness
>and ease of use, there will be more specific greases and oils coming down
>the pipe as parts become specialized. The days of using whatever is handy
>will be gone.. right or wrong. It's happened to cars, planes, even
>lawnmowers. Such is the price of "progress"
>Just my 2 cents
Let me guess; you don't know anything about lubricants, do you?
My point was, and remains, that the lithium has nothing to do with it.
If Rock Shock is specific about not using lithium grease then they
really have no idea what they are talking about. It is likely that
their problem is with the petroleum oil which would also be found in
calcium or sodium based greases. If they were serious about helping
their customers they would suggest that one not use a petroleum grease
(assuming that is the problem), or just engineer their product from
better materials.
I'm willing to go out on a limb here and guess that the statement you
have read is a product of Rock Shock's marketing people and that their
engineering people actually know better. Perhaps someone from Rock
Shock would care to respond.
In spite of your statement above, there are still very few types of
grease--with a nearly infinite variety in each type. If you want a
non-petroleum based grease you might try Dow Corning 33 (which is
lithium based) or Dow Corning 111 (which is not.) Either will be fine
with any plastic or elastomer. These are not good lubricants for
metal to metal, however, and contain no oxidation inhibitors, so they
have drawbacks of their own.
The lithium base is, however, not a problem.
Robert Perkins
In article <5949qf$j...@ratty.wolfe.net>, jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) writes:
|> Suntour's GreaseGuard instructions also used to specify
|> non-lithium grease but not non-petroleum grease, saying that
|> other greases would shrink and harden the seals. The seals don't
|> seem to mind aluminum-complex grease, or at least mine seem just
|> fine five years on.
|>
Duh, any hazards as to a guess as to the composition of
teflon-reinforced :)> marine grease? Lithium, petroleum,
whizzium?
--
Rob Perkins rper...@nortel.ca
PCC Bit
:::snip:::
<<
In spite of your statement above, there are still very few types of
grease--with a nearly infinite variety in each type. If you want a
non-petroleum based grease you might try Dow Corning 33 (which is
lithium based) or Dow Corning 111 (which is not.) Either will be fine
with any plastic or elastomer. These are not good lubricants for
metal to metal, however, and contain no oxidation inhibitors, so they
have drawbacks of their own.
>>>
While I am not a chemist, alchemist or other atom twiddler I do
understand the basic of lubrication. Grease( oil or whatever you wish to
call it) can be and are designed for specific applications or for general
purpose applications. Unless you know exactly what it is designed for and
what it will be used for , you can make a costly mistake. The putting of
synthetic oil into a older used engine is a prime example. The chemicals
will cause the older seals to swell and/or shrink causing massive leaks.
Not a good thing. I wont debate who is right about using lithium in a Rock
Shock or even if lith is the "problem" but the real question is am I
willing to gamble a 400.00 shock on a 1.50 tub of grease that is an
unknown as far as reactions? or should I just plunk the 3 dollars down
for a small( admittedly overpriced) tub of "official" RockShock Judy
Butter that will not cause me grief in either operation or any warrenty
work? After spending 400 on a shock another 3 bucks isn't going to break
me. The same goes for the SRAM plastic fantasic GripShift.. the chain..
the bearings etc. You want to put any old grease in a bearing.. cool..
I'll be the first to agree.. except I might recommend a Marine grease. You
wanna stuff any old grease in my R/S or GripShift, stay away from my bike.
Reality is most of us ride and are NOT chemists or even want to
understand all the differences between greases and oils. If peace of mind
is 3 bucks for the "correct" grease then so be it.
FYI-- The official R/S statement is use anything in the shock that you
like as long as it IS NOT lithium based. They would "prefer" you to use
Judy Butter but it's not a requirement. So R/S's "problem" is with the
Lithium.. And unlike your burger, alot of grease doesnt say what base they
are made with or what additives are in it. So we are back to "peace of
mind"
Mike
Mark Woodhead
In article <594ogp$q...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu
(Melissa & Jim) wrote:
> Let me guess; you don't know anything about lubricants, do you?
>
> My point was, and remains, that the lithium has nothing to do with it.
> If Rock Shock is specific about not using lithium grease then they
> really have no idea what they are talking about. It is likely that
> their problem is with the petroleum oil which would also be found in
> calcium or sodium based greases. If they were serious about helping
> their customers they would suggest that one not use a petroleum grease
> (assuming that is the problem), or just engineer their product from
> better materials.
>
> I'm willing to go out on a limb here and guess that the statement you
> have read is a product of Rock Shock's marketing people and that their
> engineering people actually know better. Perhaps someone from Rock
> Shock would care to respond.
>
The point that was mentioned by the first poster was that the lithium in
the grease would react with the seals or the MCUs. According to the
Owner's manual for the Judy, Lithium reacts with the coating on the
bushings, not the seals or MCUs. I don't pretend to know a lot about the
chemistry involved, but you're pretty far out on that limb, making gross
generalizations without having the facts. Do you know what the coating on
the Garloc bushings is made of? Are you *sure* it doesn't react with
lithium? Maybe if I was a chemist, I'd have that kind of blind faith, too.
Until then, I'll just have to wait for an explanation that appeals a
little better to my common sense.
Mark
--
³That's the great thing about crayons...they can take you more places than starships² ‹‹‹Guiynan, Starship Enterprise
David Blake
Brad Anders wrote:
...
>
> I have a container of automotive wheel bearing grease that I bought 15 years
> ago that I'm still using for bike applications. I have also used Campy
> grease, but both seem to work equally well.
I hope for your sake (and others that use one container of grease
for long periods of time) that the container is sealed and
contaminant-free. If water or grit is introduced into the
container, then the grease doesn't work quite the same. In order
to protect their grease, most machinists keep a grease injection
gun loaded with their several year's supply of grease, although
they commonly apply it first onto their fingers, and then onto
the part to be lubed.
--
Dave Blake
dbl...@phy.ucsf.edu
http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake
Jobst Brandt
David Blake writes:
> I hope for your sake (and others that use one container of grease
> for long periods of time) that the container is sealed and
> contaminant-free. If water or grit is introduced into the container,
> then the grease doesn't work quite the same.
You don't need to take the can of grease along on bike rides, mine sits
on the shelf at home and not much "water or grit" gets into it there.
My roof doesn't leak. What sort of contaminants did you have in mind?
> In order to protect their grease, most machinists keep a grease
> injection gun loaded with their several year's supply of grease,
> although they commonly apply it first onto their fingers, and then
> onto the part to be lubed.
I hope you don't believe in these incantations and rites for putting
grease on parts of a bicycle. This is the cloth bicycling thrives on.
Keep up the good work.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Melissa & Jim
pcc...@aol.com (PCC Bit) wrote:
>FYI-- The official R/S statement is use anything in the shock that you
>like as long as it IS NOT lithium based. They would "prefer" you to use
>Judy Butter but it's not a requirement. So R/S's "problem" is with the
>Lithium.. And unlike your burger, alot of grease doesnt say what base they
>are made with or what additives are in it. So we are back to "peace of
>mind"
It is clear that in this day and age many people will choose to grant
themselves "The Indusrial Expmption" and just gather all the knowledge
they think they might need from the manufacturer's sales literature
without trying to back it up with any real understanding. The peace
of mind argument is a good one in general, but I really don't think it
applies here because this newsgroup is rec.bicycles.TECH, so I don't
think that I'm going out on a limb by claiming that those who read
here are seeking more fundamental truths. I AM willing to go out on
this limb and state that if you want to contribute to a thread here
you ought to have something more than someone's marketing blurb to
back you up.
The question here has to do with the nature of grease. Those who have
been most defensive of RockShock's position betray a total lack of
understanding of what grease really is. If you would like independent
confirmation of this go to the library and find a copy of "The
Machinerys Handbook."
Grease is a mixture of two components. The active ingredient is some
kind of oil whose composition, additives and viscosity may be chosen
to suit the intended application. The remainder is a soap which
serves as a carrier, or dispenser, for the grease. Chemically, a soap
is the reaction product of an alkali and a particular kind of organic
molecule. Alkalais are hydroxides of an alkali metal--sodium,
calcium, or lithium.
Now the alkali metals are probably the most reactive of all the
elements, and their hydroxides are pretty reactive also, but by the
time you react the hydroxide with the organic molecule you have a
compound that is pretty inert because the alkali metal in it is
strongly bound to the rest of the molecule.
The soaps that are used in lubricating greases are chosen for their
viscosity and their melting point. The viscosity determines how
quickly the resulting grease will flow away from the point of use, and
the melting point determines how hot the application can get before
the room temperature viscosity becomes irrelevant. Lithium greases,
because of their greater binding energy tend to have higher melting
points. Since grease is chosen over oil for its ability to stay put,
a grease that melts at operating temperatures will usually flow away
from where it is needed and is considered to have failed.
Note that we now have three families of soaps that are chemically
identical except for the substitution of a different member of the one
column of the periodic table. Since soaps made from different alkali
metals will be chemically very similar, it only remains to ask which
might be more reactive. The answer is that while all of them are
rather inert (that's part of the reason they were chosen for the
task,) the lithium soaps will be less reactive because of their
greater binding energy in the soap molecule.
The earliest greases were made from CaOH and NaOH and so were calcium
or sodium based. Later, during and after WW II, greases for higher
operating temperatures were needed and LiOH was used to make lithium
based greases. While the high melting point of lithium grease is
never necessary for bicycle applications, they have become the most
commonly available family.
In use, a grease lubricates by slowly allowing a small amount of oil
to separate from the soap base; it is this oil portion alone which
provides the lubrication. The soap portion of the mixture is only a
dispenser for the oil.
The oil you choose to mix in with your soap can be any kind you need.
It can be petroleum, silicone, or synthetic. It can have any additive
package that is compatable with the oil; remember, for all practical
purposes, the soap base, lithium or otherwise, is inert. Oils in
general are not inert and need to be chosen carefully to fit the
application.
In the end we have the conclusion that the soap base of a grease is
almost completely inert; if it has any propensity to react with other
materials then the lithium based soaps will be less reactive than the
sodium or calciums. This means if the lithium based soaps are a
problem, the alternatives are worse.
So, there you have it. That's about 80% of what I know about greases.
Perhaps now most of you can see why I get so irritated when I hear
someone quoting RockShock's admonition not to use lithium grease; the
statement is just patently absurd. Maybe RockShock has some kind of
compatibility problem with some kinds of lubricants, maybe not; I have
no way of really knowing. But their statement lacks credibility so I
suspect that their real motive is just one of sales.
For furthur reading I recommend "The Parker O-Ring Handbook." This
contains many pages of information on the properties of the numerous
elastomers used for seals and O-rings. There are also twenty pages of
fluid compatibility data where you can look up almost any fluid and
see what kinds of elastomers are recommended for use with it. It is
notable that petroleum and silicone greases both appear in the chart,
but lithium, sodium, and calcium greases do not.
I hope some of you have learned something. I would like to think that
I could encourage a few people to think critically about some of the
claims made in the name of marketing. I REALLY hope I can find this
post again when this same question comes up again in 6 months--because
it always does, and I'm tired of typing;-)
Thomas Watt
Melissa & Jim wrote:
> It is clear that in this day and age many people will choose to grant
> themselves "The Indusrial Expmption" and just gather all the knowledge
> they think they might need from the manufacturer's sales literature
> without trying to back it up with any real understanding.
>
don't know what I'm talking about because it says so right on the
container. :)
Thomas
and another addition to the lack of bandwidth.
David Blake
Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> David Blake writes:
>
> > I hope for your sake (and others that use one container of grease
> > for long periods of time) that the container is sealed and
> > contaminant-free. If water or grit is introduced into the container,
> > then the grease doesn't work quite the same.
>
> You don't need to take the can of grease along on bike rides, mine sits
> on the shelf at home and not much "water or grit" gets into it there.
> My roof doesn't leak. What sort of contaminants did you have in mind?
Well, I have seen open grease cans in several bike shops,
exposed to all the dirt and dust 24 hours a day. You can
literally see dirt in the grease. I threw away a tub of
grease after I repacked everything at a race and left the
tub in the rain. I threw it away only after I noticed it
didn't work for squat anymore. I don't think I am the only
one that has had his grease 'exposed'. By the looks of
most bike workstations, there is grit a plenty just waiting
to stick in the grease tub. It is not obvious from looking
at the grease (especially the green grease) that it is
contaminated. In a grease gun there is no possibility
of contamination.
> > In order to protect their grease, most machinists keep a grease
> > injection gun loaded with their several year's supply of grease,
> > although they commonly apply it first onto their fingers, and then
> > onto the part to be lubed.
>
> I hope you don't believe in these incantations and rites for putting
> grease on parts of a bicycle. This is the cloth bicycling thrives on.
> Keep up the good work.
I generally sacrifice several female sheep before I lube each bearing
to appease the gods - only after a 24 hour fast and a blood-letting.
Sheldon Brown
David Blake wrote:
>
> Well, I have seen open grease cans in several bike shops,
> exposed to all the dirt and dust 24 hours a day. You can
> most bike workstations, there is grit a plenty just waiting
> to stick in the grease tub. It is not obvious from looking
> at the grease (especially the green grease) that it is
> contaminated. In a grease gun there is no possibility
> of contamination.
I keep an open container of white grease attached to my workstand.
(It is a cut-down water bottle, in a cage held to the stand by a
toast wrap.) You might get the wrong idea from seeing this. This
grease is used for lubricating screw threads, steerers and seat-
posts.
When I repack ball bearings, I use nice clean Phil Wood grease from
a tube, or, in the case of injection-type systems, white grease from
a Dualco greas gun.
>
> I generally sacrifice several female sheep before I lube each bearing
> to appease the gods - only after a 24 hour fast and a blood-letting.
No animals are harmed in the course of normal service operations at
Harris Cyclery, though there are rumours of mice supping on Pawabas,
which can't be good for them...
Sheldon "I Spent The Summer Swimming In Grease" Brown
Newtonville, Massachusetts
+--------------------------------------------+
| And the end of all our exploring |
| Will be to arrive where we started |
| And know the place for the first time. |
| --T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets |
+--------------------------------------------+
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/biz/hub/
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
(617) 244-1040 FAX 244-1041
Wan Andrew Jeyin
I went to my local automotive store and bought a 1kg tub of Molybdenum
sulphide grease. I think this grease has the same base as any other
grease but has a different additive. The shop guy said that it is safe
on RS Judys. So, I went home put it on and worked it into the fork. By
golly geez! NO STICTION! I think this stuff works better than the Judy
butter. Stuff is as cheap as anything out there.
Any thoughts on Molybdenum sulphide grease?
--
"Now that's pretty weak! I mean for Pete's sake, that's weaker
than a teabag in an OCEAN for crying out loud!!!"
From !-DAVE RANDORF on CKNW commenting on
ANDREW JEYIN WAN ! the play of the Vancouver Canucks
Melissa & Jim
Thomas Watt <wa...@mpr.ca> wrote:
>Melissa & Jim wrote:
>> It is clear that in this day and age many people will choose to grant
>> themselves "The Indusrial Expmption" and just gather all the knowledge
>> they think they might need from the manufacturer's sales literature
>> without trying to back it up with any real understanding.
>>
>My Syncros grease is made from range fed dinosaurs. Don't tell me I
>don't know what I'm talking about because it says so right on the
>container. :)
>Thomas
>and another addition to the lack of bandwidth.
Thanks for the good humor; I think we all needed it. Now if I could
just find a couple of tubes of Jane's Baby blue bike and boob lube....
Peter Crighton
James Carroll <james....@bpainc.com> wrote:
>Hey,
> Does anyone know what performance differences there are between
>lithium grease and regular grease? What parts of a bike would I
>NOT want to use regular grease and use lithium grease instead?
>It seems that most of the places that I'm using Li grease would
>work just fine with regular grease.
I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
(readily available from car parts shops)
---
Peter Crighton
Melissa & Jim
je...@unixg.ubc.ca (Wan Andrew Jeyin) wrote:
>I went to my local automotive store and bought a 1kg tub of Molybdenum
>sulphide grease. I think this grease has the same base as any other
>grease but has a different additive. The shop guy said that it is safe
>on RS Judys. So, I went home put it on and worked it into the fork. By
>golly geez! NO STICTION! I think this stuff works better than the Judy
>butter. Stuff is as cheap as anything out there.
>Any thoughts on Molybdenum sulphide grease?
Molybdenum disulfide is a solid lubricant that is excellent for
sliding friction. It is grey/black in color and the greases it is
found in are usually lithium-based petroleum greases. It is an
excellent additive and I am aware of no compatability problems between
it and any other material.
I hope your experience continues to be positive. Please report back
to us in a couple of weeks.
Melissa & Jim
Pe...@p-cright.demon.co.uk (Peter Crighton) wrote:
>I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
>together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
>post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
>(readily available from car parts shops)
Oxidation inhibitors are additives to oils and greases. Most have
them, some much more than others. Greases specially intended for wet
service tend to have large amounts of oxidation inhibitors; Phil Wood
grease is an example.
I never heard of a copper-based grease. Is this possibly some kind of
anti-seize that has bits of ground up copper in it? If it is copper
colored that would be the case. That would make it some kind of
grease, possibly lithium based, that had metallic copper as part of
the additive package. Most anti-seize products use lead, tin, silver,
or nickel for this purpose.
How about giving us a more complete description of this product.
Andy Dingley
The moving finger of mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Melissa & Jim) having
written:
>I never heard of a copper-based grease.
Polybutylcuprysil is the magic incantation you're looking for.
Lousy lubricant, brilliant at anti-corrosion and nothing short of a
hurricane will shift it.
--
Do whales have krillfiles ?
Joshua_Putnam
>I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
>together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
>post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
>(readily available from car parts shops)
Lithium grease is fine for seatposts, and does not promote
corrosion. Many very good marine anti-corrosion greases are
lithium based.
Peter Crighton
mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Melissa & Jim) wrote:
>Pe...@p-cright.demon.co.uk (Peter Crighton) wrote:
>
>>I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
>>together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
>>post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
>>(readily available from car parts shops)
>
>I never heard of a copper-based grease. Is this possibly some kind of
>anti-seize that has bits of ground up copper in it? If it is copper
>colored that would be the case. That would make it some kind of
>grease, possibly lithium based, that had metallic copper as part of
>the additive package. Most anti-seize products use lead, tin, silver,
>or nickel for this purpose.
>
The grease is indeed copper coloured so I would presume that there are
small balls of copper within the grease.
>How about giving us a more complete description of this product.
>
I'm no expert on greases so the following info comes from my tube
(made by Automotive Chemicals Limited, Bury, Lancashire, England and
marketed as Carlube multi-purpose copper grease). I've seen and used
other similar greases from other companies.
"Carlube Multi-Purpose Copper Grease is a high melting point,
anti-seize, lead free, copper based assembly compound designed to form
a dense protective coating that will not wash or burn off. The
anti-seize grease properties are particularly useful for work where
assembly abd dismantling occurs.
Carlube Multi-Purpose Copper Grease is ideal for protecting all metal
parts againt: seizure, leakage of oil and water, rust and corrosion."
Perhaps someone who works in the field of grease design/manufacture
could provide further information
---
Peter Crighton
Peter Crighton
jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>In <85120557...@p-cright.demon.co.uk> Pe...@p-cright.demon.co.uk (Peter Crighton) writes:
>
>>I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
>>together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
>>post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
>>(readily available from car parts shops)
>
>Lithium grease is fine for seatposts, and does not promote
>corrosion. Many very good marine anti-corrosion greases are
>lithium based.
>
Well, my seat-post was stuck fast after using lithium grease on it.
The new one has copper grease on it and has not got stuck after one
year. Maybe the lithium grease did not promote corrosion but did not
inhibit it.
---
Peter Crighton
Peter Crighton
mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Melissa & Jim) wrote:
>Pe...@p-cright.demon.co.uk (Peter Crighton) wrote:
>
>>I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
>>together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
>>post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
>>(readily available from car parts shops)
>
Peter Crighton
jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>In <85120557...@p-cright.demon.co.uk> Pe...@p-cright.demon.co.uk (Peter Crighton) writes:
>
>>I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
>>together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
>>post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
>>(readily available from car parts shops)
>
Joshua_Putnam
>mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Melissa & Jim) wrote:
>>Pe...@p-cright.demon.co.uk (Peter Crighton) wrote:
>>
>>>I've been told not to use lithium grease for preventing parts seizing
>>>together as it actually PROMOTES corrosion in this case (e.g. seat
>>>post). The best grease I've found to use here is a copper based grease
>>>(readily available from car parts shops)
>>
>>I never heard of a copper-based grease. Is this possibly some kind of
>>anti-seize that has bits of ground up copper in it? If it is copper
>>colored that would be the case. That would make it some kind of
>>grease, possibly lithium based, that had metallic copper as part of
>>the additive package. Most anti-seize products use lead, tin, silver,
>>or nickel for this purpose.
>>
>The grease is indeed copper coloured so I would presume that there are
>small balls of copper within the grease.
In the U.S. at least, copper-based anti-seize seems to be most
common in marine applications. I don't know what its specific
advantages there are, but I would guess that electrolysis is a
concern, and metals other than copper might be more likely to
promote electrolysis with brass fittings. (I use copper based
anti seize on my bikes because I have it around from working on
my boats; I have it on my boats because that's what all the
marine suppliers said to use, but I'm far from an expert on
anti-seize.)
tbg...@aol.com
In article <5abc0d$1...@ratty.wolfe.net>, jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam)
writes:
>In the U.S. at least, copper-based anti-seize seems to be most
>common in marine applications. I don't know what its specific
>advantages there are, but I would guess that electrolysis is a
>concern, and metals other than copper might be more likely to
>promote electrolysis with brass fittings. (I use copper based
>anti seize on my bikes because I have it around from working on
>my boats; I have it on my boats because that's what all the
>marine suppliers said to use, but I'm far from an expert on
>anti-seize.)
Having worked on boats in the salt water I think you can trust marine
suppliers on that issue, not because they are experts in the chemistry and
physics of it but because they have some hard experience behind them.
Tom Gibb <TBG...@aol.com>
Melissa & Jim
Pe...@p-cright.demon.co.uk (Peter Crighton) wrote:
>Well, my seat-post was stuck fast after using lithium grease on it.
>The new one has copper grease on it and has not got stuck after one
>year. Maybe the lithium grease did not promote corrosion but did not
>inhibit it.
Based on all the posts, plus one personal email I received, it appears
that this copper stuff is not a lubricating grease, but rather an
anti-seize compound. It is probably very good at that task, but
should not be used in an application where you expect lubrication.
While I usually just use grease in anti-seize applications because it
is handy, it is reasonable to use something more appropriate where the
situation is more difficult. If you cannot find this marine copper
stuff (which I agree sounds excellent) readily available, I find that
the Permatex "silver goop" anti-seize is widely available and also
works pretty well.
I would also like to reiterate that the ability of any grease to
inhibit corrosion is a function of the oxidation inhibitors that are
added to the grease. Greases of all bases (potassium, sodium,
lithium) vary widely in this regard, and there is no correlation
between the base and the degree of oxidation protection.
Peter Crighton
mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Melissa & Jim) wrote:
>While I usually just use grease in anti-seize applications because it
>is handy, it is reasonable to use something more appropriate where the
>situation is more difficult. If you cannot find this marine copper
>stuff (which I agree sounds excellent) readily available, I find that
>the Permatex "silver goop" anti-seize is widely available and also
>works pretty well.
>
The copper grease I use came from a car accessory shop so that's
another place to look.
---
Peter Crighton