12 speed Campagnolo

[Tom Kunich]

I thought that 11 speed was such an improvement on the 10 speed that it couldn't be improved on.

But after riding the 12 speed I find it even better, Also I am assuming that the latest manual Record group uses all of the parts that the Electric Shifting Super Record Group uses so that I could get a 48.32 crank with a 10-29 all steel cassette. This would give me the same climbing gears I have with my present 12 speed 50-34 with the 11-34 cassette.

After about 800 miles on the 12 speed I have to say that it shifts so much better than the 11 that I now would like to sell one of the complete 11 speed bikes and get a new 12 speed group to install on the Land Shark. Also, the Land Shark and the Tommasini are so good that I could sell off the Fondriest Status X and not worry about it. The Alaverti is an old fashion lugged steel bike that looks so good that I will keep that forever. So not I will put the Trek Alpha 1.5, the Cannondale Optimum gravel bike and the Fondriest Status up for sale and the loss of those bikes would give me more room than I need.

And it appears that since the time I was first using tubeless tires, they improved them a great deal so while they are still a real pain in the butt to get the tires on, the fact that flats are so rare is a positive and I don't have to carry tubes. (I do have a phone and a wife that can take care of extreme troubles.) But my riding has improved a lot inasmuch as watching for possible flat causing problems such as large broken beer or whisky bottles. People that drink wine dispose of their bottles properly. At least around there.

[AMuzi]

+1

I told you that at the start.
Campagnolo 12 is a wonderful system, not just "one more
sprocket".

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Well the 11's work but you're constantly readjusting them. But the 12 is rock solid after you get it correct.

[Roger Meriman]

Apparently they need to, as they are loosing market share ie very few if
any Pro teams using them plus consumers.

Which is one reason for the removal of the thumb shifter and smaller chain
sets.

At least that’s what the reviews have said not seen a modern bike with any
that’s all Shimano or SRAM systems or occasionally Microshift.

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 07:01:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>as watching for possible flat causing problems such as large broken
>beer or whisky bottles. People that drink wine dispose of their
>bottles properly. At least around there.

Wine bottles are thicker and heavier than whisky bottles. Thick
bottles are required for sparkling wines and champagne in order to
withstand the internal pressure. For ordinary wines, the thicker and
heavier bottle is to give the impression of quality.

"What Does Your Bottle Really Say About the Wine?"
<https://www.winemag.com/2018/03/01/what-does-your-bottle-really-say-about-the-wine/>

Oddly, the thickness of most (not all) drinking glassware is the
opposite, where thick heavy glass is needed to survive the dish
washing machinery and occasional drops. The thinner and lighter
glassware is what gives the impression of luxury.

If you're considering assembling a Molotov Cocktail, medium wall
thickness bottles are the best:
<https://zaborona.com/en/bandera-smoothies-for-putins-friends-how-to-make-a-molotov-cocktail-basic-recipes-and-life-hacks/>
"The bottle must be thick-walled and tough enough to stay intact while
you’re handling it, though at the same time, it must be fragile enough
to immediately break when it hits a target. So, it’s better to use
beer or vodka bottles. On the other hand, wine or champagne bottles
are usually too thick and sturdy and may not break."

With these simple forensic bottle guidelines, you can identify whether
the culprit is an imbiber, boozer, wino, or anarchist from the broken
glass on the road. Also, be sure to leave the broken glass in the
road so that the cyclists that follow can practice their panic stops,
obstacle avoidance and tire patching skills.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/2/2023 10:14 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Campagnolo 12 is a wonderful system, not just "one more sprocket".

So: Details?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

They are very liable to be sued by Shimano for the way that their levers are simply too similar to Di2. Did you look at them? It appeared that the two shift buttons are built into the lever.

[Tom Kunich]

On closer inspection they are built into the lever head just like the Shimano Di2. Even worse from the user view - Campagnolo is making electronic BRAKES. Now ain't that just the time to have a battery go dead? They are rim brakes designed to be used on TT bikes and they are also wireless.

[Roger Meriman]

No the only patent to be swerved is apparently SRAM and batteries in the
derailleurs.

The shifters are wireless and electronic, with coin batteries like others.

But the brakes are hydraulic and disk only.

Both these are what sells ie disks and electronic at least at the high end.

All of the big three have noted that’s what the market wants.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

https://bikerumor.com/campagnolo-super-record-eps-wireless-teaser/

[Roger Meriman]

That article is a year old now, ie the new group-set has been released, and
they are talking about wireless shifting not brakes.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

If you look at the pictures in that article, you can see the entire front end of that fork is a rim brake and GCN mentioned electronic rim brakes on TT bikes.

It seems unlikely to me as well but who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men.

[Roger Meriman]

The only Rim brake bike is running the older 11s groupset as that’s what
was what was available for TT bikes or bar end shifters then ie year ago
when the article was published.

>
> It seems unlikely to me as well but who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men.
>

There is at least one Patent though it seems to be a idea than proof of
concept.

https://bikerumor.com/patent-patrol-shimano-wires-up-electric-bicycle-brakes-but-why/

As article say’s probably more likely for bikes and folks who want/need
brake levers in non standard positions.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 02 Jun 2023 18:43:11 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:16:52?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 9:04:05?AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

Nothing wrong with good old fashioned cable shifting and brakes, in
fact, their most likely more reliable than the wireless stuff. I
changed out my rear deraileur cable just recently, and today I
changed out the front.

[Mark Clark]

I wholeheartedly agree. Last year I took a frame building class and made myself a custom steel frame—lugged, fillet brazed Columbus Zona tubing (rim brake). I built it with Campagnolo 12 speed Record (mechanical), 11-32 Chorus cassette, and Ritchey carbon fork. Whole build weighs just over 19 lbs. The Record is fantastic and trouble free so far.

Just for fun I tried an Ultegra 11-30 cassette on it (chain is KMC 12), and with only some minor tweaking of the RD, shifting is just as good. Very happy with it and so glad I went that route.

Mark

[Roger Meriman]

Cable disks I found muck got inside the calliper and trashed it, vs
Hydraulic systems where you wash off the sheep poo and good to go
essentially.

I find cables can be prone to water ingress and tend to fail at that point
ie become sticky. My MTB has a hack? In that it’s supposed to be run
internally but it’s run external with full outers to keep water out! And
has worked well for year or so? Though the outer casing is slightly damaged
at one point so will need to replace it by winter!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 02 Jun 2023 20:15:53 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>>>>>>> At least that?s what the reviews have said not seen a modern bike with any
>>>>>>>> that?s all Shimano or SRAM systems or occasionally Microshift.

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> They are very liable to be sued by Shimano for the way that their levers
>>>>>>> are simply too similar to Di2. Did you look at them? It appeared that
>>>>>>> the two shift buttons are built into the lever.
>>>>>> On closer inspection they are built into the lever head just like the
>>>>>> Shimano Di2. Even worse from the user view - Campagnolo is making
>>>>>> electronic BRAKES. Now ain't that just the time to have a battery go
>>>>>> dead? They are rim brakes designed to be used on TT bikes and they are also wireless.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No the only patent to be swerved is apparently SRAM and batteries in the
>>>>> derailleurs.
>>>>>
>>>>> The shifters are wireless and electronic, with coin batteries like others.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the brakes are hydraulic and disk only.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both these are what sells ie disks and electronic at least at the high end.
>>>>>

>>>>> All of the big three have noted that?s what the market wants.

>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>> https://bikerumor.com/campagnolo-super-record-eps-wireless-teaser/
>>>>
>>>
>>> That article is a year old now, ie the new group-set has been released, and
>>> they are talking about wireless shifting not brakes.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Nothing wrong with good old fashioned cable shifting and brakes, in
>> fact, their most likely more reliable than the wireless stuff. I
>> changed out my rear deraileur cable just recently, and today I
>> changed out the front.
>>
>Cable disks I found muck got inside the calliper and trashed it, vs
>Hydraulic systems where you wash off the sheep poo and good to go
>essentially.
>
>I find cables can be prone to water ingress and tend to fail at that point
>ie become sticky. My MTB has a hack? In that it’s supposed to be run
>internally but it’s run external with full outers to keep water out! And
>has worked well for year or so? Though the outer casing is slightly damaged
>at one point so will need to replace it by winter!
>
>Roger Merriman

I've used cable operated disks (Avid BB7s) ever since I bought the
Catrike in 2009. I've never had any problems with them even though
they're on 20 inch wheels and thus closer to the ground... Granted,
of course, I don't go off road.

[Roger Meriman]

It’s less the water, or rain I believe Florida is quite humid. Though more
dry/wet season and more thunderstorms than london which tends to just
drizzle.

But yes either way it’s not the water as such but the mud etc that grinds
cable disk callipers. Generally the adjustment in my experience.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 02 Jun 2023 21:53:26 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> ie become sticky. My MTB has a hack? In that it?s supposed to be run
>>> internally but it?s run external with full outers to keep water out! And

>>> has worked well for year or so? Though the outer casing is slightly damaged
>>> at one point so will need to replace it by winter!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>> I've used cable operated disks (Avid BB7s) ever since I bought the
>> Catrike in 2009. I've never had any problems with them even though
>> they're on 20 inch wheels and thus closer to the ground... Granted,
>> of course, I don't go off road.
>>
>It’s less the water, or rain I believe Florida is quite humid. Though more
>dry/wet season and more thunderstorms than london which tends to just
>drizzle.
>
>But yes either way it’s not the water as such but the mud etc that grinds
>cable disk callipers. Generally the adjustment in my experience.
>
>Roger Merriman

I'll make a note to stay out of the mud. Actually, the Catrike would
be horrible off road. Pushing two front wheels with a single power
wheel...

[John B.]

As I wrote in another post, I'm a believer in the "did it work"
evaluation of solutions and so far cable brakes and shifting have
worked well for me. Why change.

The answer "Well, it's better" elicits the question "Better? How?"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 08:29:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/2/2023 12:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/2/2023 10:14 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Campagnolo 12 is a wonderful system, not just "one more sprocket".
>
> So: Details?

That was a serious question, Andrew. I'm curious about what specific
features raises Campy 12 above just "one more sprocket."

What are the advantages and disadvantages?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

We've discussed this.

Very light weight, improved lever shape, quick setup*, very
wide gear range with short changer, very crisp shift
response, choice of wire or hydraulic brake lever.

Tooth profiles and both changers' springs and cage shapes
are radically improved. If you liked 9-10-11 you'll love 12.

*exclusive feature only for those who read the manuals

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/3/2023 12:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/3/2023 10:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/2/2023 12:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 6/2/2023 10:14 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Campagnolo 12 is a wonderful system, not just "one more
>>>> sprocket".
>>>
>>> So: Details?
>>
>> That was a serious question, Andrew. I'm curious about what
>> specific features raises Campy 12 above just "one more
>> sprocket."
>>
>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>>
>
> We've discussed this.

I probably wasn't paying much attention.

> Very light weight, improved lever shape, quick setup*, very wide gear
> range with short changer, very crisp shift response, choice of wire or
> hydraulic brake lever.
>
> Tooth profiles and both changers' springs and cage shapes are radically
> improved. If you liked 9-10-11 you'll love 12.
>
> *exclusive feature only for those who read the manuals

OK, thanks for the info.

--
- Frank Krygowski