Chain gears vs internal in winter

[Dieter Britz]

Do derailleur (chain-) gears get stiff in cold weather?
Or is it just a matter of keeping the system well oiled?
I don't want sluggish gear changes on a bike I might be
buying, although I would prefer chain gears to internal,
which are tricky to maintain.
--
Dieter Britz

[John B.]

There isn't much there to get stiff. A couple of pivot points that
after a year or so probably have a minimal amount of oil on them.

But I do read here folks who talk about riding about on studded tires
so someone who rides in sub-zero weather will probably have a
definitive answer for you.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I ride all year and am often out and about when it's very cold well below zero C or F and have no problem with stiff or sluggish shifting on my external geared bike.

[datakoll]

A first winter with a friction shifter 10 speed lubed with auto grease for 110 degrees road temps was a no go at 40 degrees: walk.

Light silicone waxes on cables solved the problem. Synthetic transmission oils, Valvoline esp bearing a very low odor level, are made for low temps, function on the deray pivots. Synth marine wheel bearing grease with synth trans oil added in a drop work on pulley wheel bearing surfaces.

Equipment use age IN the petro industry on frozen ground is waaay up.

You may ask the Fairbanks bicycle club for advice. Or The Yellow Jersey !

[datakoll]

************

vALVO SELLS A zero weight synthetic

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/5

the synth gear oil formukates with a no throw off element is non very sticky-friction producing. the motor oil gives a very high flow value compared with shell oils but at COLD temps a ZERO W may not throw off.

low odor.

Mobil One may have a minus weight use able in blimp motors

[Jay Beattie]

I have problems in really cold weather, but it is because my knees are
sticking. Actually, the only problem I have had in really cold
weather is sluggish STI performance, but even that is rare. No
problems with chains. My chain problems are worse in slightly warmer
and wet weather when all the lubricant is washed off.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

The only such problem I've had has been when dense, wet, slushy snow
has managed to foul my rear cogs. IIRC, the cog I was using was fine,
but others became too clogged to use, making rear shifting impossible
until I scraped the cogs clean.

But that's been very rare - perhaps only once or twice in my life.

- Frank Krygowski

[David Scheidt]

John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com> wrote:
:On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:01:48 +0000 (UTC), Dieter Britz

I've had the derailuer get jammed with ice. I've had the cluster of
gears get jammed with snow, much more often. Either keeps you from
shifting, but the current gear is fine. I also have had indexing
problems in cold weather, solved by using friction mode on the
barends. my new all-weather bike is an alfine 8 w/ disks.

Reminds me, whatever happened to Chalo?

--
sig 80

[Andre Jute]

I don't know about a comparison, Dieter, because in the ten or twelve years I rode on derailleurs we had warm weather, but during another ten or twelve years on internal hubs in colder winters (but nowhere near as cold as some other RBTers experience) I have not noticed that internal hubs are stiffer during winter or than derailleurs.

However, I want to take issue with your statement that internal gears are tricky to maintain.

The best internal gears, Rohloff, have two official maintenance cycles: the gearbox oil is changed once a year or every 5000km/3000m; and the EXT external click box (which I recommend as leading to a smoother cable run) theoretically is to be greased every 500km. That's the entire service schedule, and you can ignore the click box interval in the manual and do it twice a year or even once with the main oil change. The grease inside my EXT click box is clean at the end of every year.

The Shimano Nexus/Alfine hub gears also has a theoretical service interval, possibly 5000km (long time since I checked it). If you want to know how many observe it, try to find a stockist of the service kit for the Shimano hub gear, a sort of oil bath. Most just ride those into the ground at 40 or 50,000km plus.

What remains to service about internal gears? Well, the chain. But I'm currently running a KMC X8-99 inside a Chainglider only on its factory lube, no extra lube, and after about 2000km, which in my derailleur days was about as long as my chains lasted, there is zero wear on anything, so I'm carrying on with the experiment to see if maybe the factory lube is good fro the entire expected life of the chain (the last X8, lubed every three months, made 4506km). Your chainring and sprocket will last longer on a hub gear installation, though I don't know quite how much longer since I used cheap Nexus gears and sprockets on my Shimano internal gears, which wore out with the Nexus chain, disgracefully fast, expensive in the long term, and now with my Rohloff use stainless Surly chaingrings and of course the known long-wearing Rohloff sprocket at the back. My bike currently has 6200km on the sprocket, and I have no reason to believe it won't make 10k/6200m easily, possibly much more, before the sprocket is turned and does the same on the other side.

As you can see, maintenance doesn't feature high on hub gear installations if you take up all the opportunities they offer, including a fully enclosed chaincase. There are several focussed discussions on these matters on the Thorn Rohloff sub-board, also in English, and in Germany there is a Rohloff board with a high reputation for good information in German.

I hope this helps in your decision.

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

Some of these guys commute in conditions that out in Malaysia I don't think you can even imagine. I imagine that rather than stuck derailleurs, they must worry about snow and ice buildup jamming against fork and frame clearances. Certainly they make Ireland, where I live, seem even in winter a balmy place! Sensibly, I come back inside when I see ice on the road... Hard men on RBT.

Andre Jute

[datakoll]

'COMMON SENSE' WOULD DIRECT ONE TO AN INTERNAL HUB BUT ????

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw&q=Search%20for%20topics#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=aLFINE+HUB+SUBZERO+COLD+WINTER+WEATHER&oq=aLFINE+HUB+SUBZERO+COLD+WINTER+WEATHER&gs_l=hp.12...5097.30150.0.34124.54.45.0.3.3.8.1890.16512.0j17j10j11j0j1j3j2j1.45.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.2.hp.-SRvlJg2YZA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42261806,d.eWU&fp=7b390c4dfcfadd05&biw=1152&bih=610

[John B.]

I don't know about that. Here we are just into February and at (lets
see) 13.01 it is 31.9 C. Cool today :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 3:40:42 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:01:48 AM UTC, Dieter Britz wrote: > Do derailleur (chain-) gears get stiff in cold weather? > > Or is it just a matter of keeping the system well oiled? > > I don't want sluggish gear changes on a bike I might be > > buying, although I would prefer chain gears to internal, > > which are tricky to maintain. I don't know about a comparison, Dieter, because in the ten or twelve years I rode on derailleurs we had warm weather, but during another ten or twelve years on internal hubs in colder winters (but nowhere near as cold as some other RBTers experience) I have not noticed that internal hubs are stiffer during winter or than derailleurs. However, I want to take issue with your statement that internal gears are tricky to maintain. The best internal gears, Rohloff, have two official maintenance cycles: the gearbox oil is changed once a year or every 5000km/3000m; and the EXT external click box (which I recommend as leading to a smoother cable run) theoretically is to be greased every 500km. That's the entire service schedule, and you can ignore the click box interval in the manual and do it twice a year or even once with the main oil change. The grease inside my EXT click box is clean at the end of every year. The Shimano Nexus/Alfine hub gears also has a theoretical service interval, possibly 5000km (long time since I checked it). If you want to know how many observe it, try to find a stockist of the service kit for the Shimano hub gear, a sort of oil bath. Most just ride those into the ground at 40 or 50,000km plus. What remains to service about internal gears? Well, the chain. But I'm currently running a KMC X8-99 inside a Chainglider only on its factory lube, no extra lube, and after about 2000km, which in my derailleur days was about as long as my chains lasted, there is zero wear on anything, so I'm carrying on with the experiment to see if maybe the factory lube is good fro the entire expected life of the chain (the last X8, lubed every three months, made 4506km). Your chainring and sprocket will last longer on a hub gear installation, though I don't know quite how much longer since I used cheap Nexus gears and sprockets on my Shimano internal gears, which wore out with the Nexus chain, disgracefully fast, expensive in the long term, and now with my Rohloff use stainless Surly chaingrings and of course the known long-wearing Rohloff sprocket at the back. My bike currently has 6200km on the sprocket, and I have no reason to believe it won't make 10k/6200m easily, possibly much more, before the sprocket is turned and does the same on the other side. As you can see, maintenance doesn't feature high on hub gear installations if you take up all the opportunities they offer, including a fully enclosed chaincase. There are several focussed discussions on these matters on the Thorn Rohloff sub-board, also in English, and in Germany there is a Rohloff board with a high reputation for good information in German. I hope this helps in your decision.

I put on a new chain at the beginning of my ATB season on my Rohloff equipped ATB and it made an awful noise. It appeared that the Rohloff sprocked caused it after only 3500 km. I was a little disappointed. Flipped the sprocked and the noise was gone. Expected lifetime 7000 km used in the worst conditions.

Lou

[datakoll]

*************

gee we're seeing OUTRAGEOUS CLAMS...keep in mind - wear is progressive worser nit better.

We wonder what a Rolloff with fiber gears ? is good for. One guess is sweet gears are chosen then refiber used but golly geeeeeeee how to find them....or here how to at 10 degrees in slipperyness.

'ahhhh rolling along today on a thin crust...nice sound....sun feels good over blue snow light coming thru fragrant aspens...here's hill 7....I'll select gear 84....'

oh yeah. click click click nirvana

but to the point....light very low temp silicone lubes for aircraft...try the Boing lube....jus keep it away from your batts and composites....and synth trans oils for very low applications...

petro tech is here to save the day if not the civ.

[Dan O]

Define "cold".

The most likely (cheaper) approach is to try derailer first. If it
gives problems, you could consider internal gear hub, but I wonder
what you'd do when *it* freezes up (at least w/ everything out in the
open you could probably still ride it home somehow).

[thirty-six]

On Feb 12, 10:01 am, Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do derailleur (chain-) gears get stiff in cold weather?
> Or is it just a matter of keeping the system well oiled?

Yes, a low-viscocity (thin) oil should be used to keep the chain
rolling easy. If you can spin the cranks with a 90deg swing from the
hand then it's good to go.

[thirty-six]

On Feb 12, 8:09 pm, David Scheidt <dsche...@panix.com> wrote:

> John B. <johnbsloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:01:48 +0000 (UTC), Dieter Britz
>

> :<dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :>Do derailleur (chain-) gears get stiff in cold weather?
> :>Or is it just a matter of keeping the system well oiled?
> :>I don't want sluggish gear changes on a bike I might be
> :>buying, although I would prefer chain gears to internal,
> :>which are tricky to maintain.
>
> :There isn't much there to get stiff. A couple of pivot points that
> :after a year or so probably have a minimal amount of oil on them.
>
> :But I do read here folks who talk about riding about on studded tires
> :so someone who rides in sub-zero weather will probably have a
> :definitive answer for you.
>
> I've had the derailuer get jammed with ice.  I've had the cluster of
> gears get jammed with snow, much more often.  Either keeps you from

Huret Svelto (all steel) derailleur with a 5-speed freewheel (at least
2 teeth jump between sprockets) and 1/8" chain works where other
systems frequently break down.

[thirty-six]

On Feb 13, 2:45 am, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:53:50 AM UTC, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:01:48 +0000 (UTC), Dieter Britz
>

> > <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >Do derailleur (chain-) gears get stiff in cold weather?
>
> > >Or is it just a matter of keeping the system well oiled?
>
> > >I don't want sluggish gear changes on a bike I might be
>
> > >buying, although I would prefer chain gears to internal,
>
> > >which are tricky to maintain.
>
> > There isn't much there to get stiff. A couple of pivot points that
>
> > after a year or so probably have a minimal amount of oil on them.
>
> > But I do read here folks who talk about riding about on studded tires
>
> > so someone who rides in sub-zero weather will probably have a
>
> > definitive answer for you.
>
> > --
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > John B.
>
> Some of these guys commute in conditions that out in Malaysia I don't think you can even imagine. I imagine that rather than stuck derailleurs, they must worry about snow and ice buildup jamming against fork and frame clearances. Certainly they make Ireland, where I live, seem even in winter a balmy place! Sensibly, I come back inside when I see ice on the road... Hard men on RBT.
>
> Andre Jute

-18degC, once upon a time. Goggles required, otherwise my eyes would
stream..

[thirty-six]

On Feb 12, 3:12 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 3:30 am, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pat...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:01:48 AM UTC-5, Dieter Britz wrote:
> > > Do derailleur (chain-) gears get stiff in cold weather?
>
> > > Or is it just a matter of keeping the system well oiled?
>
> > > I don't want sluggish gear changes on a bike I might be
>
> > > buying, although I would prefer chain gears to internal,
>
> > > which are tricky to maintain.
>
> > > --
>
> > > Dieter Britz
>
> > I ride all year and am often out and about when it's very cold well below zero C or F and have no problem with stiff or sluggish shifting on my external geared bike.
>
> I have problems in really cold weather, but it is because my knees are
> sticking.

Castor oil, sesame oil, mustard oil, capsicum, thyme, cinnamon take
your pick.
and that yellow spice used in curries which name I forget, apparently
that is best used with sesame oil. You can also use a commercial
muscle rum or a decongestant, but they may contain all manner of
unwanted chemicals and mineral derived products which are best avoided
in the long term.

[John B.]

Yes..... Some humans do exhibit masochistic traits. Oddly enough few
animals do :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:07:09 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:

>On Feb 12, 3:12�pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 12, 3:30�am, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pat...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:01:48 AM UTC-5, Dieter Britz wrote:
>> > > Do derailleur (chain-) gears get stiff in cold weather?
>>
>> > > Or is it just a matter of keeping the system well oiled?
>>
>> > > I don't want sluggish gear changes on a bike I might be
>>
>> > > buying, although I would prefer chain gears to internal,
>>
>> > > which are tricky to maintain.
>>
>> > > --
>>
>> > > Dieter Britz
>>
>> > I ride all year and am often out and about when it's very cold well below zero C or F and have no problem with stiff or sluggish shifting on my external geared bike.
>>
>> I have problems in really cold weather, but it is because my knees are
>> sticking.
>
>Castor oil, sesame oil, mustard oil, capsicum, thyme, cinnamon take
>your pick.
>and that yellow spice used in curries which name I forget, apparently
>that is best used with sesame oil. You can also use a commercial
>muscle rum or a decongestant, but they may contain all manner of
>unwanted chemicals and mineral derived products which are best avoided
>in the long term.

Hmmmm..... used externally, or internally?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[roz...@gmail.com]

From the published photographs of the bike and the conditions, and the knowledge that you have a range bikes so that it is likely that the ATB bike is kept only for similar conditions, I would say that's not quite a surprise, but not acceptable either. Around 5K per side would be better, in the sense of more acceptable. After all, it isn't as if you neglect maintenance.

Andre Jute

[thirty-six]

The first three (oils) to be used externally, the others to be used
from both directions.

Turmeric is the one I forget.

These are aids to boost circulation in the area concerned and warm
compresses on top of the oil rubs will further help by encouraging
penetration of the relaxing oils and spices. The thick castor oil is
particularly beneficial as the last application because not only does
it improve circulation, it also waterproofs the skin and is thick
enough to avert windchill. Make the applications also to the feet.
Magic socks are washed in magnesium chloride.

[datakoll]

RIGHT, what is read is non prep.

lube for conditions eg

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw&q=Search%20for%20topics#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=2&gs_ri=hp&gs_mss=LOW%20TEMPERATURESILICONE%20LUBRICANT&tok=zRbh7bz4phQh2sUdH6fRRg&pq=boeshield%20low%20temperatires&cp=16&gs_id=9q&xhr=t&q=LOW%20TEMPERATURE%20SILICONE%20LUBRICANT&es_nrs=true&pf=p&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&oq=LOW+TEMPERATURE+SILICONE+LUBRICANT&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42261806,bs.1,d.eWU&fp=71676fc4944a5700&biw=960&bih=504

for cables n joints then on to low temp and low working temp oil for the internal hub...a low temp trans oil.

I posted a Goolink to 'SWEDEN WINTER BIKING' Swedes would know but again nmay not use the 'indicated' lubes.

I had thought Boesheild as an 'aircraft lubricant but not....

[datakoll]

try this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-30314

ask Redline or Summit's Dr Knowitall

[datakoll]

****************

add the magic search word MARINE and woolah

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=low+temperature+marine+grade+silicone+grease&oq=low+temperature+marine+grade+silicone+grease&gs_l=hp.12...5259.17973.1.29687.44.37.0.7.7.0.728.8913.0j22j8j4j0j2j1.37.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.3.hp.n1gnVnQr1BU&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42452523,d.eWU&fp=7b390c4dfcfadd05&biw=960&bih=508

urcup doth not.

In Florida warm but columnar thunderstorms POURING WARM FRESH WATER ROOOOOAAAAAARRRRRRR marine grade synth lubes for pulley wheels and exposed joints is the way togo....the stuff does wash off but slowly... over miles/hours not a brief ride in one storm

[AMuzi]

True. An amazingly well designed little thing. Light too.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[datakoll]

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:06:36 PM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:54:54 PM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:
>
> > try this:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-30314
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ask Redline or Summit's Dr Knowitall
>
>
>
> ****************

CASTROL MARINE has a glycol line

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9030229&contentId=7064153

[James]

> True. An amazingly well designed little thing. Light too.
>

You obviously weren't responding to the comment about Chalo.

--
JS.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Feb 13, 9:28 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 2/13/2013 3:56 PM, thirty-six wrote:
>
>
> > Huret Svelto (all steel) derailleur with a 5-speed freewheel (at least
> > 2 teeth jump between sprockets) and 1/8" chain works where other
> > systems frequently break down.
>

> True. An amazingly well designed little thing. Light too.

That's what came on my first ten speed. Still got it down in the
parts box.

I recall reading a review in a 1970s bike publication that it was a
fine derailleur, but that the 90 degree bend in the body would make it
weak at that point. That's when I knew for sure that you can't
necessarily believe what you read in a bike part review.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Strange, I have the distinct memory of being dosed with Caster Oil
when I was a youngster. Internally :-)

>Turmeric is the one I forget.
>
>These are aids to boost circulation in the area concerned and warm
>compresses on top of the oil rubs will further help by encouraging
>penetration of the relaxing oils and spices. The thick castor oil is
>particularly beneficial as the last application because not only does
>it improve circulation, it also waterproofs the skin and is thick
>enough to avert windchill. Make the applications also to the feet.
>Magic socks are washed in magnesium chloride.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Weak? Compared to what? Tough for a gear changer especially
as compared to modern models.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/amsvelto.jpg

[thirty-six]

On Feb 14, 5:10 am, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 9:28 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> > On 2/13/2013 3:56 PM, thirty-six wrote:
>
> > > Huret Svelto (all steel) derailleur with a 5-speed freewheel (at least
> > > 2 teeth jump between sprockets) and 1/8" chain works where other
> > > systems frequently break down.
>
> > True. An amazingly well designed little thing. Light too.
>
> That's what came on my first ten speed.  Still got it down in the
> parts box.
>

It'll shift over a compact 7 too.

> I recall reading a review in a 1970s bike publication that it was a
> fine derailleur, but that the 90 degree bend in the body would make it
> weak at that point.

Huh? I remember considering filing it back to make it lighter than
the Jubilee but decided against attempting it because of the chrome.

> That's when I knew for sure that you can't
> necessarily believe what you read in a bike part review.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

believe no-one, especially if they are wearing a costume or collar and
tie..

[thirty-six]

Yep, it pulls on the lymph, clearing out your crap. Just did a
freezer test with sesame seed oil, it was jelled at -15degC, not quite
as stiff as Vaseline at 25degC.

>
> >Turmeric is the one I forget.
>
> >These are aids to boost circulation in the area concerned and warm
> >compresses on top of the oil rubs will further help by encouraging
> >penetration of the relaxing oils and spices.   The thick castor oil is
> >particularly beneficial as the last application because not only does
> >it improve circulation, it also waterproofs the skin and is thick
> >enough to avert windchill.  Make the applications also to the feet.
> >Magic socks are washed in magnesium chloride.
>

Sesame oil only seems to activate after eating sweet fruit.

[datakoll]

>
> Weak? Compared to what? Tough for a gear changer especially
>
> as compared to modern models.
>
>
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/amsvelto.jpg
>
>
>
> --
>
> Andrew Muzi
>
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

is the u bracket steel ? I recog the cage as Suntour type metal ? Infinitely malleable from pretzlness ?

cudbe the writer was in backhand compliment not error.

[datakoll]

AHA ! the Deore 530 ad nauseum used here weigh ten more grams than the Huret S

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=weight%20weenies%20rear%20derailleurs&psj=1&biw=1152&bih=610&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&wrapid=tlif136088538926610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=i3YdUcKyEYrm8QS5lYDoBw#um=1&hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=huret+svelto+rear+derailleur&oq=huret+svelto&gs_l=img.1.1.0i24l2.3926.17717.0.22020.43.31.1.4.4.7.162.2183.20j10.30.0...0.0...1c.1.3.img.cRpxebV3KoI&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42553238,d.eWU&fp=6cf8af1b6e344260&biw=1152&bih=610