Thursday Ride

[Tom Kunich]

I wore my new heart rate monitor for the 25 miles ride with 2000 feet of climbing.

I rode out to Pleasanton and back with a friend and he is a couple of years older than me., I watched him disappear up the climbs and if I tried to keep up with him I maxed out. So I would slow up to keep my heart rate 5 or so beats below maximum.

One of the things that I noticed is that traffic significantly kicked my heart rate up. My rest heart rate is 84 or so but coasting down a hill on Dublin grade with traffic flying past, it was 99.

Max heart rate is supposed to be 220 minus your age. But at 140 I didn't feel all that stressed and my breathing wasn't all that hard but I eased up at 140 anyway. I can still climb anything but I just do it slower.

[Lou Holtman]

220 minus your age is just crap. For me it would mean that my max HR would be 154 bpm. Pfff, I just back from a week in the Dolomites. I easily hit 175 bpm in the climbs. It is after season and I take it easy from now on until February next year.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

I'm your age... I don't have to push very hard to push my heart rate
over 140, but I try to keep it under 130 as per doctor recommendation.
My resting heart rate is usually around 140, but my Garmin watch
occasionally shows it dropping down in the mid to low 130s as I sleep.
Doctor says "no problem."

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 08:38:32 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was easily hitting 180 as recently as 2015 when I was 70/71 years
old. My doctor thought I ought to back it off a bit.

[Tom Kunich]

No need to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about - leave it in a letter to your heirs. https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/fitness/fitness-basics/target-heart-rates

[Lou Holtman]

Why do you start a subject if you get upset when someone responds?

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you talk about things you know so little about? If you over-rev your heart you do not make it stronger - you wear it out faster. I would just as soon see you around here for a long time and not laying in a hospital ward. You're a real bike rider. But it isn't good to believe that you're still strong at retirement age.

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 12:05:39 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 8:18:55?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 8:38:34?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> > On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 5:25:04?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > I wore my new heart rate monitor for the 25 miles ride with 2000 feet of climbing.
>> > >
>> > > I rode out to Pleasanton and back with a friend and he is a couple of years older than me., I watched him disappear up the climbs and if I tried to keep up with him I maxed out. So I would slow up to keep my heart rate 5 or so beats below maximum.
>> > >
>> > > One of the things that I noticed is that traffic significantly kicked my heart rate up. My rest heart rate is 84 or so but coasting down a hill on Dublin grade with traffic flying past, it was 99.
>> > >
>> > > Max heart rate is supposed to be 220 minus your age. But at 140 I didn't feel all that stressed and my breathing wasn't all that hard but I eased up at 140 anyway. I can still climb anything but I just do it slower.
>> > 220 minus your age is just crap. For me it would mean that my max HR would be 154 bpm. Pfff, I just back from a week in the Dolomites. I easily hit 175 bpm in the climbs. It is after season and I take it easy from now on until February next year.
>> >
>> > Lou
>> No need to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about - leave it in a letter to your heirs. https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/fitness/fitness-basics/target-heart-rates
>
>Why do you start a subject if you get upset when someone responds?
>
>Lou

Tommy strikes again (:-)

Reality is that exercise and training can increase the maximum heart
rate.
https://www.cycling-inform.com/how-does-your-max-heart-rate-increase
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Can_maximal_heart_rate_increase_with_exercise_training
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 8:38:34?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

Yup. But Tommy we have
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://www.roadbikerider.com/tips-for-keeping-your-maximum-heart-rate-up-as-you-age/

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 08:38:32 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Even a casual look on the Internet shows that the 220 - age is only an
approximation of safe maximum heart rate as actual maximum depends on
a number of factors such as age, heredity, health, strength and so on.

Runners talk about "the anaerobic threshold" which is the maximum that
the runner can sustain for a prolonged period.

Then too, distance runners and other sports that demand high effort
over a long period of time normally have a lower resting heart rate so
that has to be taken into consideration when talking about maximum
effort. If for example your rating heart range is in the high end of
the "normal heart rate" - 60 - 100 BPM, say 100 BPM then your 175 BPM
is an increase of 1.75%. If your resting heart rate in on the lower
end, say 60 BPM then your 175 BPM is an increase of 2.9% evidence of a
greater power output.

Top Marathon runners have a resting heart rate in the range of as low
as 33 BPM to a high of 49 BPM.

It is not quite as simple as just 220 - age (:-)


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Yeah everyone with a little experience knows that. If you point that out to a certain person you get the answer 'Why do you talk about things you know so little about? '. What a f*cking idioit. One might think that someone who is riding with a HRM for over 30 years knows best how his body reacts to a ride with a certain intensity.

Lou

[John B.]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 03:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Re "Why do you talk about things you know so little about? '.

I assume that it is the effort of an individual with an Inferiority
Complex to prove to the world that he really is somebody.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

So you're actually agreeing with a 90 year old fool that doesn't actually ride bikes rather than the American Heart Association? I hate to tell you this but the heart is a muscle that doesn't get stronger if you overtax it - it gets weaker. While you're at early retirement age you probably think that you can ride like you did when you were younger. Ignore the actual heart experts and destroy your heart. In the group I used to ride with, they have done exactly that.

[Lou Holtman]

Who said I overtax my heart Einstein. I was only saying that max heartrate is personal and mainly genetically determined. I have a high rev engine and my max HR is around 185 bpm now at my age. I can’t help it. I can’t climb a 10% climb with a HR of 140 bpm.

Lou

[Roger Meriman]

Even last century sports science noted that the 220 was a guide and a rough
one at that!

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

Yeah, but Tom did not get the memo.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 13:40:16 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:13:17?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 3:07:19?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

I don't remember ever asking the American Heart Association for health
advice.. or the CDC, or the WHO, or anybody else... other than my
own doctor. He says, "my hard riding is why my heart is in such good
shape."

[John B.]

See there, you don't know nothing! Don't you realize that you must
listed to our resident expert Tommy to learn the facts?

After all Tom is an expert, Can you imagine, he even installed the
seat post in a bicycle frame.... after some problems.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

If your rest heart rate is actually 130 as you wrote I would question my doctor very closely. Lou is correct that there are variations but not more than 10%. Your heart is nothing to play games with. The American Heart Association is NOT a government entity - it is a privately funded organization that initially was almost entirely funded by doctors. I imagine that by now they were unable to refuse the dollars donated by Uncle Sam but with no strings attached.

Even the WHO lists the top two causes of death related to the heart - Ischemic Heart Disease and Stroke (high blood pressure). In the last 20 years the rates of heart disease has risen 31% This growth has been almost entirely from heart disease

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 06:06:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Indeed, I don't claim to know much of anything.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 16:53:49 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I said my resting heart rate was usually in the mid 40s, but
occasionally showed up, according to Garmin, in the mid to low 30s. My
doctor is not concerned about that.

> Lou is correct that there are variations but not more than 10%. Your heart is nothing to play games with. The American Heart Association is NOT a government entity - it is a privately funded organization that initially was almost entirely funded by doctors. I imagine that by now they were unable to refuse the dollars donated by Uncle Sam but with no strings attached.

I don't give a rats ass who/what/where the American Heart Association
is. I go by what my doctor says.

>Even the WHO lists the top two causes of death related to the heart - Ischemic Heart Disease and Stroke (high blood pressure). In the last 20 years the rates of heart disease has risen 31% This growth has been almost entirely from heart disease

The WHO (World Health Organization) can kiss my ass, along with all
the rest of the "United Nation."

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/23/2023 7:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> If your rest heart rate is actually 130 as you wrote I would question my doctor very closely. Lou is correct that there are variations but not more than 10%.

Can you please link your sources for that information?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

The Heart Association, and everyone else, list heart problems as the
major cause of death. But that simply means that the heart is a weak
point in the system. But if you don't die of heart problems that
doesn't mean that you will live forever. It is a fact that you WILL
die, of something.

And the same organizations that list heart problems as the major cause
of death also recommend exercise as a means of strengthening the heart
and, perhaps, preventing the heart problems that might cause death.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

You had a typo then since your posting was "My resting heart rate is usually around 140, but my Garmin watch

occasionally shows it dropping down in the mid to low 130s as I sleep.
Doctor says "no problem."

Last year mine would get as low as 20 but that inconceivable fool Lieberman told us all that that wasn't possible because the last hint he had of any sort of knowledge was when he got employed as an engineer and was fired the next day for his big mouth. But we won't have to worry about him for long. As soon as I advised everyone to not take that covid-19 vaccine he rushed down and got it. Now the micro-particles from the mRNA have been found in every organ in the body and with his health record it won't be too long before this shows up as cancer.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 07:08:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

"mid to low 130s"

[Tom Kunich]

Do you understand that that would be your heart racing? 30 to 40 is a normal resting heart rate. Standing and walking about 60 to 80. Max heart rate is 220 minus your age. This may not be precise but it is very close.

The heart is a muscle that does not repair itself well. Damage to it usually leaves permanent injuries. Could I exceed 140? Of course I could but it is smart not to. A doctor saying that you have a good heart means that he is comparing you to someone your age. Most of them have build up in the veins and through a stethoscope he can hear the whooshing. Constant exercise caused the good cholesterol to wash most of the bad out of the main heart arteries and this sound which is in most people is not present.

Exceeding you maximum recommended heart rate for more than a couple of seconds causes damage to the heart which is also supplied with oxygen by the pumping action. Exceeding your recommended heart rate means that your lungs cannot properly oxygenate your blood and your entire body becomes starved for O2. This is especially important for the heart.

Remember I had to study this carefully since I designed and programmed the first practical heart/lung machine. (This is where Liebermann tells everyone he could have done it better with vacuum tubes. So why did they hire me and not him? Or that ass Krygowski will tell you that going from research and development of one important product to another means that I wasn't important to companies who needed their product of interest. Of course he doesn't even know what R&D is. He was too busy being one of those who can't. )

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I'd wanted your advice, I'd have asked for it... I didn't... My
heart health is really none of your business.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm not advising you about anything - I'm pointing out that you made a false claim about your resting heart rate twice and a more likely statement between them. No big deal but if your doctor told you that a rest heart rate of 130 was good I would rapidly find a new doctor.

[Lou Holtman]

I would consult my or a doctor when my resting HR would be 130 or 20 bpm.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

If you have a strong heart and are in good condition 20, while not particularly healthy is OK if you're totally relaxed in a lounge chair. The important rest rate is when you're standing. And that should be around 70 or 80. Catrike's 130 was nothing more than a typo and his 30 bbm while sleeping isn't particularly bad for a healthy person.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 09:05:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:19:51?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

My usual resting heart as recorded by my Garmin watch runs 140/145.
I've seen it show as low as 132, but the Garmin watch is not the best
at discerning heart rate. More often, while I was being professionally
monitored, (I've been hospitalized a few times.. not for heart
issues) it would drift below 140. I've been asked "is that normal?" I
reply that it is and they say no more about it. My father had a
similar low heart rate and we both registered very low blood pressure.
He lived well into his 90s, as did his father, and my mother. My only
concern about this is that I might live beyond my ability to be self
sufficient or that I will live longer than my wife, who is younger
than me but has health issues.

[Catrike Rider]

Make that 40/45 BPM, 32 BPM... not 140... etc...

[Lou Holtman]

That makes quite a difference in this discussion.

Lou

[Roger Meriman]

True but fairly obvious to be fair.

And as ever heart rates do differ, I have no idea what my resting is as I
don’t measure it.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

The real rest HR is during sleep and for a healthy normal person with a good condition lies aroud 45 to 55 bpm. Just sitting on the couch doing nothing around 65 bpm. Walking around 70 to 85 bpm. As already mentioned in can vary.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 11:11:01 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:40:11?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's not one size fits all....

[Tom Kunich]

That is nothing like my experience at all. Now the AHA says that your position without any stress should make no difference in your "resting heart rate" but my experience has always been that your heart rate when standing or AWAKE and sitting (not lounging) is always higher. And Catrike's experience seems to be the same. (30-40 while asleep as recorded by his Gamin watch.

The time in which my heart rate was dropping to 20 bpm I had just recovered from my concussion and was riding almost every day and training hard. When I stood up from the couch I would feel light headed until my heart rate increased to about 70 or so. Now that I am just riding when I return from a ride and leave the heart rate monitor connected, it stays around 80. When I first go out on a ride my heart rate will stay around 80 or 90 until I warm up and start riding faster when it goes up into the 110's. I don't get into the 130's up to 140 until I'm doing heavy climbing.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

None of that is true.

>
> The heart is a muscle that does not repair itself well. Damage to it usually leaves permanent injuries. Could I exceed 140? Of course I could but it is smart not to. A doctor saying that you have a good heart means that he is comparing you to someone your age. Most of them have build up in the veins and through a stethoscope he can hear the whooshing. Constant exercise caused the good cholesterol to wash most of the bad out of the main heart arteries and this sound which is in most people is not present.
>
> Exceeding you maximum recommended heart rate for more than a couple of seconds causes damage to the heart which is also supplied with oxygen by the pumping action. Exceeding your recommended heart rate means that your lungs cannot properly oxygenate your blood and your entire body becomes starved for O2. This is especially important for the heart.

It's called oxygen debt, and it's a regular training target. https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20815819/interval-sessions-increasing-your-v02-max/

>
> Remember I had to study this carefully since I designed and programmed the first practical heart/lung machine.

None of that is true either.

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 11:11:01 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:40:11?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

True. Heart rate, blood oxygen and blood pressure are all the lowest
when you are asleep but apparently this isn't what doctor' are
interested in as when I've been hospitalized, they don't sneak around
in the middle of the night taking measurements.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 14:18:39 -0400, Catrike Rider

Normal heart rate is in the 60 - 100 BPM range
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/expert-answers/heart-rate/faq-20057979
but notice that they also state that:

"Keep in mind that many factors can influence heart rate, including:

Age
Fitness and activity levels
Being a smoker
Having cardiovascular disease, high cholesterol or diabetes
Air temperature
Body position (standing up or lying down, for example)
Emotions
Body size
Medications
"

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 09:13:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:05:42?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:19:51?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

And just where do you get that information? From your vivid
imagination?

Resting heart beat and resting blood pressure are taken while sitting
in a chair, not standing, in fact the blood pressure measuring
machines used in hospitals all are built so that you are sitting more
or less upright in a chair with your arm more or less horizontal in
front of you.

I say "more or less" as the machines are all the same height but
people vary in height.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 05:43:03 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I never claimed to be normal.

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 10:51:10?AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:

"The first truly commercial heart-lung machine was the Mayo-Gibbon
device, which was the most widely used heart-lung machine of the 1950s
and early 1960s and was developed by Kirklin and coworkers at the Mayo
Clinic after the design of Dr Gibbon."

Given that Tommy was born in the mid 1940's he must have designed the
first machine when he was about 10 years old.

Tommy boy, the more effective liars think before they open their
mouth.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

More lies. 'since I designed and programmed the first practical
heart/lung machine'

"In 1953 John Gibbon realized his 20-year vision and performed the
first successful operation on a human using the heart-lung machine."

So, you were, what? 10 years old when you developed the first
practical heart/lung machine?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/24/2023 10:51 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Remember I had to study this carefully since I designed and programmed the first practical heart/lung machine.

No you didn't. Nobody believes that.

--
- Frank Krygowski