Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
87 views
Skip to first unread message
sms
Feb 26, 2022, 7:10:40 PM2/26/22
to
For on-bike chain lubrication that penetrates into the pins and rollers
(rather than remaining mainly on the outside), the only lubricant that
works properly is a foaming chain lubricant where the thin carrier
evaporates after carrying the thicker oil into the inside of the chain.
I'd been using PJ1 Black Label (for non-O ring chains) but it's become
increasingly hard to find because motorcycle shops typically carry only
the PJ1 Blue Label for O ring chains.
I was in a local hardware store a few weeks ago and I saw that there's
another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
as good as the PJ1. See
<https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.
For off-bike chain lubrication there are other options, such as soaking
the chain in warmed 30W bar & chain oil, but often you don't want to go
through the trouble of removing the chain to soak it.
(rather than remaining mainly on the outside), the only lubricant that
works properly is a foaming chain lubricant where the thin carrier
evaporates after carrying the thicker oil into the inside of the chain.
I'd been using PJ1 Black Label (for non-O ring chains) but it's become
increasingly hard to find because motorcycle shops typically carry only
the PJ1 Blue Label for O ring chains.
I was in a local hardware store a few weeks ago and I saw that there's
another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
as good as the PJ1. See
<https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.
For off-bike chain lubrication there are other options, such as soaking
the chain in warmed 30W bar & chain oil, but often you don't want to go
through the trouble of removing the chain to soak it.
Jeff Liebermann
Feb 26, 2022, 10:04:31 PM2/26/22
to
On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:10:37 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
<https://assets.unilogcorp.com/187/ITEM/DOC/Permatex_100060443_SDS.pdf>
Chemical Name CAS No Weight-%
DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-53-6 30 - 60
HYDROTREATED LIGHT NAPHTHENIC
DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-52-5 10 - 30
HYDROTREATED HEAVY NAPHTHENIC
PETROLEUM GASES, LIQUEFIED, 68476-86-8 10 - 30
SWEETENED
Light oil flows and evaporates easily, while heavy old is more like
grease, which doesn't flow and evaporates slowly.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthenic_oil>
The SDS data sheet does not specify which naphthenic oils are used
because the product is a trade secret. I couldn't find anything
definitive from the CAS numbers. So, it's a mix of two mystery oils.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
wrote:
>I was in a local hardware store a few weeks ago and I saw that there's
>another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
>as good as the PJ1. See
><https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
>About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.
SDS data sheet:
>another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
>as good as the PJ1. See
><https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
>About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.
<https://assets.unilogcorp.com/187/ITEM/DOC/Permatex_100060443_SDS.pdf>
Chemical Name CAS No Weight-%
DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-53-6 30 - 60
HYDROTREATED LIGHT NAPHTHENIC
DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-52-5 10 - 30
HYDROTREATED HEAVY NAPHTHENIC
PETROLEUM GASES, LIQUEFIED, 68476-86-8 10 - 30
SWEETENED
Light oil flows and evaporates easily, while heavy old is more like
grease, which doesn't flow and evaporates slowly.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthenic_oil>
The SDS data sheet does not specify which naphthenic oils are used
because the product is a trade secret. I couldn't find anything
definitive from the CAS numbers. So, it's a mix of two mystery oils.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
sms
Feb 27, 2022, 3:57:20 AM2/27/22
to
On 2/26/2022 7:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:10:37 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>> I was in a local hardware store a few weeks ago and I saw that there's
>> another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
>> as good as the PJ1. See
>> <https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
>> About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.
>
> SDS data sheet:
> <https://assets.unilogcorp.com/187/ITEM/DOC/Permatex_100060443_SDS.pdf>
> Chemical Name CAS No Weight-%
> DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-53-6 30 - 60
> HYDROTREATED LIGHT NAPHTHENIC
>
> DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-52-5 10 - 30
> HYDROTREATED HEAVY NAPHTHENIC
>
> PETROLEUM GASES, LIQUEFIED, 68476-86-8 10 - 30
> SWEETENED
>
> Light oil flows and evaporates easily, while heavy old is more like
> grease, which doesn't flow and evaporates slowly.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthenic_oil>
> The SDS data sheet does not specify which naphthenic oils are used
> because the product is a trade secret. I couldn't find anything
> definitive from the CAS numbers. So, it's a mix of two mystery oils.
I also see the "WD-40 SPECIALIST® ROLLER CHAIN LUBE"chain lubricant
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:10:37 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>> I was in a local hardware store a few weeks ago and I saw that there's
>> another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
>> as good as the PJ1. See
>> <https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
>> About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.
>
> SDS data sheet:
> <https://assets.unilogcorp.com/187/ITEM/DOC/Permatex_100060443_SDS.pdf>
> Chemical Name CAS No Weight-%
> DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-53-6 30 - 60
> HYDROTREATED LIGHT NAPHTHENIC
>
> DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-52-5 10 - 30
> HYDROTREATED HEAVY NAPHTHENIC
>
> PETROLEUM GASES, LIQUEFIED, 68476-86-8 10 - 30
> SWEETENED
>
> Light oil flows and evaporates easily, while heavy old is more like
> grease, which doesn't flow and evaporates slowly.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthenic_oil>
> The SDS data sheet does not specify which naphthenic oils are used
> because the product is a trade secret. I couldn't find anything
> definitive from the CAS numbers. So, it's a mix of two mystery oils.
which states "sprays on thin to penetrate deep into roller chains, inner
chain links, pins and bushings, and then thickens to provide
long-lasting lubrication." They have one labeled "WD-40 SPECIALIST® BIKE
CHAIN LUBE" as well. The MSDS are very different between the two:
Roller Chain Lube:
<https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/specialist/wd-40-specialist-roller-chain-lube-us-ghs-sds.pdf>.
Bike Chain Lube:
<https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/bike/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-chain-lube-us-ghs-ca.pdf>.
According to <https://www.machinerylubrication.com/>, "A chain lubricant
should have low enough viscosity to penetrate into critical internal
surfaces and high enough viscosity, or necessary additives, to maintain
an effective film at the prevailing temperature and pressure."
Jeff Liebermann
Feb 27, 2022, 4:23:10 PM2/27/22
to
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 00:57:16 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
Looking at the SDS data sheets, the bicycle chain mix contains:
Ingredient CAS # Weight Percent
Heptane 64742-49-0 70-80%
142-82-5
Propane Propellant 74-98-6 10-20%
Petroleum Solvent 64741-66-8 5-10%
64742-47-8
Mineral Oil Proprietary 1-5%
Basically, all the various chain lubes in spray cans contain:
1. A solvent carrier that later evaporates.
2. A lubricant payload.
3. A gas propellant.
As usual, the ingredients are obfuscated to prevent reverse
engineering. Looking at the list, the heptane solvent and "petroleum
solvents" are both solvent carriers that will eventually evaporate.
The only part that looks like a lubricant is the mineral oil, which
only consists of 1% to 5% of the mix. If you happen to have a can of
this WD-40 chain lube spray, try spraying a little on a microscope
slide, plate glass or tiny test tube. When the solvents eventualy
evaporate, what is left should be the mineral oil, which does all the
lubricating. For a 6 fluid oz (177 ml) spray can, that's 1.8ml to
8.9ml of actual lubricant. Not much, methinks.
When in doubt, check the CAS number. CAS# 64742-49-0 (heptane) is a
popular designation name for a light refinery solvent mix, which can
include a wide variety of chemicals and go by a wide variety of names:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_benzine>
"Petroleum benzine is a hydrocarbon-based solvent mixture that is
classified by its physical properties (e.g. boiling point, vapor
pressure) rather than a specific chemical composition, often
obfuscating distinction within the long list of petroleum distillate
solvent mixtures: mineral spirits, naphtha, white spirits, petroleum
spirits, turps substitute, mineral turpentine, petroleum benzine,
petroleum ether, ligroin, and Stoddard Solvent."
I could probably make this chain lube from Coleman camp fuel and
mineral oil.
>According to <https://www.machinerylubrication.com/>, "A chain lubricant
>should have low enough viscosity to penetrate into critical internal
>surfaces and high enough viscosity, or necessary additives, to maintain
>an effective film at the prevailing temperature and pressure."
The lube only needs to have a low viscosity when you're applying the
lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
the pin/bushing and bushing/roller. After the carrier solvent
evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
keep the oil from dripping or running. Note that this assumes that
the pins, bushings and rollers are clean and not packed with dirt.
wrote:
Looking at the SDS data sheets, the bicycle chain mix contains:
Ingredient CAS # Weight Percent
Heptane 64742-49-0 70-80%
142-82-5
Propane Propellant 74-98-6 10-20%
Petroleum Solvent 64741-66-8 5-10%
64742-47-8
Mineral Oil Proprietary 1-5%
Basically, all the various chain lubes in spray cans contain:
1. A solvent carrier that later evaporates.
2. A lubricant payload.
3. A gas propellant.
As usual, the ingredients are obfuscated to prevent reverse
engineering. Looking at the list, the heptane solvent and "petroleum
solvents" are both solvent carriers that will eventually evaporate.
The only part that looks like a lubricant is the mineral oil, which
only consists of 1% to 5% of the mix. If you happen to have a can of
this WD-40 chain lube spray, try spraying a little on a microscope
slide, plate glass or tiny test tube. When the solvents eventualy
evaporate, what is left should be the mineral oil, which does all the
lubricating. For a 6 fluid oz (177 ml) spray can, that's 1.8ml to
8.9ml of actual lubricant. Not much, methinks.
When in doubt, check the CAS number. CAS# 64742-49-0 (heptane) is a
popular designation name for a light refinery solvent mix, which can
include a wide variety of chemicals and go by a wide variety of names:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_benzine>
"Petroleum benzine is a hydrocarbon-based solvent mixture that is
classified by its physical properties (e.g. boiling point, vapor
pressure) rather than a specific chemical composition, often
obfuscating distinction within the long list of petroleum distillate
solvent mixtures: mineral spirits, naphtha, white spirits, petroleum
spirits, turps substitute, mineral turpentine, petroleum benzine,
petroleum ether, ligroin, and Stoddard Solvent."
I could probably make this chain lube from Coleman camp fuel and
mineral oil.
>According to <https://www.machinerylubrication.com/>, "A chain lubricant
>should have low enough viscosity to penetrate into critical internal
>surfaces and high enough viscosity, or necessary additives, to maintain
>an effective film at the prevailing temperature and pressure."
lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
the pin/bushing and bushing/roller. After the carrier solvent
evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
keep the oil from dripping or running. Note that this assumes that
the pins, bushings and rollers are clean and not packed with dirt.
sms
Feb 27, 2022, 5:09:35 PM2/27/22
to
On 2/27/2022 1:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
<snip>
> The lube only needs to have a low viscosity when you're applying the
> lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
> the pin/bushing and bushing/roller. After the carrier solvent
> evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
> keep the oil from dripping or running.
True, but a great many "drip-on" chain lubricants don't have a solvent
that evaporates. They go on thick and never penetrate into the pins and
rollers.
As Sheldon wrote "The problem with lubricating conventional chains is
that thick lubricants can't penetrate into the inaccessible crannies
where they are really needed, but thin lubricants don't last long
enough. There is a family of popular chain lubricants that deal with
this by mixing a thick oil-type lubricant with a volatile solvent. The
resulting mix is thin enough to get some penetration by capillary
action, then the solvent evaporates and leaves the thick oil behind.
This type of lube is easy to apply, and is very popular for that reason."
Soaking in warm 30 weight, non-detergent, oil (bar and chain oil) is
great if you want to take off the chain to do this. As Jobst wrote
"Chain saw lube is about as close as you can get to an ideal chain
lubricant for an exposed chain." You just better have a chain with a
quick-link of some sort if you want to do this, and not keep using a
chain-breaker tool.
<snip>
> The lube only needs to have a low viscosity when you're applying the
> lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
> the pin/bushing and bushing/roller. After the carrier solvent
> evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
> keep the oil from dripping or running.
that evaporates. They go on thick and never penetrate into the pins and
rollers.
As Sheldon wrote "The problem with lubricating conventional chains is
that thick lubricants can't penetrate into the inaccessible crannies
where they are really needed, but thin lubricants don't last long
enough. There is a family of popular chain lubricants that deal with
this by mixing a thick oil-type lubricant with a volatile solvent. The
resulting mix is thin enough to get some penetration by capillary
action, then the solvent evaporates and leaves the thick oil behind.
This type of lube is easy to apply, and is very popular for that reason."
Soaking in warm 30 weight, non-detergent, oil (bar and chain oil) is
great if you want to take off the chain to do this. As Jobst wrote
"Chain saw lube is about as close as you can get to an ideal chain
lubricant for an exposed chain." You just better have a chain with a
quick-link of some sort if you want to do this, and not keep using a
chain-breaker tool.
Frank Krygowski
Feb 28, 2022, 11:52:37 AM2/28/22
to
alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
tests of chain lubricants. For example:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
--
- Frank Krygowski
Jeff Liebermann
Feb 28, 2022, 2:01:20 PM2/28/22
to
On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
<https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
<https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
Jeff Liebermann
Feb 28, 2022, 2:22:16 PM2/28/22
to
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 14:09:31 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
>On 2/27/2022 1:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> The lube only needs to have a low viscosity when you're applying the
>> lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
>> the pin/bushing and bushing/roller. After the carrier solvent
>> evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
>> keep the oil from dripping or running.
>True, but a great many "drip-on" chain lubricants don't have a solvent
>that evaporates. They go on thick and never penetrate into the pins and
>rollers.
Or, in the case of wax lubes, are thinned by heating, which allegedly
penetrates the chain.
>As Sheldon wrote "The problem with lubricating conventional chains is
>that thick lubricants can't penetrate into the inaccessible crannies
>where they are really needed, but thin lubricants don't last long
>enough. There is a family of popular chain lubricants that deal with
>this by mixing a thick oil-type lubricant with a volatile solvent. The
>resulting mix is thin enough to get some penetration by capillary
>action, then the solvent evaporates and leaves the thick oil behind.
>This type of lube is easy to apply, and is very popular for that reason."
Yep. However, ease of application is not a major factor if you
prepare your chains in advance. What I would guess(tm) make a bigger
difference is how well and how long the lube keeps dirt and crud out
of the moving parts, and how long the lube stays in place. I vaguely
recall that Friction Facts ran tests with dirty and rusty chains and
found there was a substantial deterioration with all the various
lubes.
>Soaking in warm 30 weight, non-detergent, oil (bar and chain oil) is
>great if you want to take off the chain to do this.
Minor quibble. Nobody except dangerous beginners ever use 30wt engine
oil to lubricate a chain saw bar (or mix with the gasoline). Motor
oil does not stay attached to the bar and is slung off the chain,
which is moving at about 90 ft/sec. Chain saw bar oil is formulated
with a "tackifier" that makes it sticky. However, that won't work on
a bicycle because it's also a dirt magnet and will soon turn the lube
into a sticky and abrasive mess. Using 30wt motor oil in place of 2
cycle oil doesn't work very well on todays chain saws. However, for
bicycle chain lube, 30wt might work, but I've never tried it.
>As Jobst wrote
>"Chain saw lube is about as close as you can get to an ideal chain
>lubricant for an exposed chain." You just better have a chain with a
>quick-link of some sort if you want to do this, and not keep using a
>chain-breaker tool.
Maybe the chain gang should take a hint from belt driven bicycles,
which usually have a right seat stay splitter to allow for belt
changes?
wrote:
>On 2/27/2022 1:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> The lube only needs to have a low viscosity when you're applying the
>> lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
>> the pin/bushing and bushing/roller. After the carrier solvent
>> evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
>> keep the oil from dripping or running.
>True, but a great many "drip-on" chain lubricants don't have a solvent
>that evaporates. They go on thick and never penetrate into the pins and
>rollers.
penetrates the chain.
>As Sheldon wrote "The problem with lubricating conventional chains is
>that thick lubricants can't penetrate into the inaccessible crannies
>where they are really needed, but thin lubricants don't last long
>enough. There is a family of popular chain lubricants that deal with
>this by mixing a thick oil-type lubricant with a volatile solvent. The
>resulting mix is thin enough to get some penetration by capillary
>action, then the solvent evaporates and leaves the thick oil behind.
>This type of lube is easy to apply, and is very popular for that reason."
prepare your chains in advance. What I would guess(tm) make a bigger
difference is how well and how long the lube keeps dirt and crud out
of the moving parts, and how long the lube stays in place. I vaguely
recall that Friction Facts ran tests with dirty and rusty chains and
found there was a substantial deterioration with all the various
lubes.
>Soaking in warm 30 weight, non-detergent, oil (bar and chain oil) is
>great if you want to take off the chain to do this.
oil to lubricate a chain saw bar (or mix with the gasoline). Motor
oil does not stay attached to the bar and is slung off the chain,
which is moving at about 90 ft/sec. Chain saw bar oil is formulated
with a "tackifier" that makes it sticky. However, that won't work on
a bicycle because it's also a dirt magnet and will soon turn the lube
into a sticky and abrasive mess. Using 30wt motor oil in place of 2
cycle oil doesn't work very well on todays chain saws. However, for
bicycle chain lube, 30wt might work, but I've never tried it.
>As Jobst wrote
>"Chain saw lube is about as close as you can get to an ideal chain
>lubricant for an exposed chain." You just better have a chain with a
>quick-link of some sort if you want to do this, and not keep using a
>chain-breaker tool.
which usually have a right seat stay splitter to allow for belt
changes?
sms
Feb 28, 2022, 4:30:33 PM2/28/22
to
On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>
> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>
> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>
> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>
> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
not surprising.
I saw one video of someone showing how to do paraffin properly, using
solid paraffin was combined with liquid paraffin oil. Of course most
people using solid paraffin are adding some kind of liquid lubricant in
the mix since paraffin by itself is not going to last very long.
What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:
"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.
"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel
"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.
"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown
sms
Feb 28, 2022, 4:43:53 PM2/28/22
to
On 2/28/2022 11:22 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
<snip>
Olive oil is very cheap when purchased in bulk, so I can see bicycle
service departments heading to the Business Costco:
<https://bulkbycho.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Costco_business_center_drums.jpg>.
> Minor quibble. Nobody except dangerous beginners ever use 30wt engine
> oil to lubricate a chain saw bar (or mix with the gasoline).
I was referring to 30W Bar and Chain Oil:
<https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-SAE-30-Bar-and-Chain-Oil-1-Quart-Bottle/16913789>.
Yes, it's tacky, but you wipe the oil off the outside of the chain once
the chain is lubricated.
> Maybe the chain gang should take a hint from belt driven bicycles,
> which usually have a right seat stay splitter to allow for belt
> changes?
That would be nice but I think that it probably affects the structural
integrity of the frame.
Two weeks ago I did a ride with my niece and sister-in-law. I looked at
their bikes and asked "when was the last time you oiled your chain?"
knowing that the answer would be "not since the last time you worked on
our bikes two years ago." You know that the typical occasional rider is
not going to remove their chain to soak it in warm oil, or heat up wax
and dip it. But you might convince them to spray some foaming chain lube
on the chain instead of WD-40, or instead of using 3 in 1 oil.
<snip>
Olive oil is very cheap when purchased in bulk, so I can see bicycle
service departments heading to the Business Costco:
<https://bulkbycho.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Costco_business_center_drums.jpg>.
> Minor quibble. Nobody except dangerous beginners ever use 30wt engine
> oil to lubricate a chain saw bar (or mix with the gasoline).
<https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-SAE-30-Bar-and-Chain-Oil-1-Quart-Bottle/16913789>.
Yes, it's tacky, but you wipe the oil off the outside of the chain once
the chain is lubricated.
> Maybe the chain gang should take a hint from belt driven bicycles,
> which usually have a right seat stay splitter to allow for belt
> changes?
integrity of the frame.
Two weeks ago I did a ride with my niece and sister-in-law. I looked at
their bikes and asked "when was the last time you oiled your chain?"
knowing that the answer would be "not since the last time you worked on
our bikes two years ago." You know that the typical occasional rider is
not going to remove their chain to soak it in warm oil, or heat up wax
and dip it. But you might convince them to spray some foaming chain lube
on the chain instead of WD-40, or instead of using 3 in 1 oil.
Jeff Liebermann
Feb 28, 2022, 5:58:20 PM2/28/22
to
On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:30:30 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
>On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>>
>> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>>
>> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
>> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
>> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
>> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
>
>LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>not surprising.
I'm not sure what Friction Facts meant by "WD-40 Aerosol". I could
have been the original water displacement formulation, or one of the
growing collection of special purpose formulations:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/?category=bike>
This would be my best guess(tm) except that it was released in 2018,
while the Friction Facts tests were in 2013:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
Yech. 1 to 5% mineral oil. Lacking alternatives, it must be the
original water displacement formulation:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/handy-can/>
Hmmm... Aug 2021. "Petroleum base oil". Five different possible
classes of base oil:
<https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/understanding-types-of-lubricants-base-oil-groups/>
Maybe I should give up now while I'm still sane?
>I saw one video of someone showing how to do paraffin properly, using
>solid paraffin was combined with liquid paraffin oil. Of course most
>people using solid paraffin are adding some kind of liquid lubricant in
>the mix since paraffin by itself is not going to last very long.
Before one can apply the magic wax anti-friction elixir to the chain,
the chain must be thoroughly cleaned and degreased. Anything worth
doing is also worth over-doing, which this video is a good example:
"Chain Cleaning Goes Ultrasonic! How Does It Work?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHFZyr7BMEo> (7:06)
Notice that there are two ultrasonic cleaners and four cleaning
potions involved.
I'm a fan of drip brush chain oilers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=drip+bruch+chain+oiler&tbm=isch>
They do a mediocre job of getting oil into the moving parts of the
chain. Instead, they do a tolerable job of washing off the dirt and
crud before it can stick to the moving parts. Such a system would
probably be more popular were it not for the complaints by nearby
riders of the resulting dirty oil spray.
>What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:
>
>"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
>complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
>lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
>Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.
>
>"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
>been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
>of The Bicycle Wheel
>
>"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
>In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
>quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
>Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.
>
>"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
>of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
>grease." Sheldon Brown
The Friction Facts data shows that wax is a somewhat better lubricant
than oil.
I think the experts are ignoring the real problem. Claims and tests
of lubrication performance seem to always be based on what is required
to lubricate a nice new chain. That's fine for racers and big
spenders, but useless for casual riders who are likely to be riding
with a worn, rusted, or stretched chain. For those all too common
situations, the gap between the pin to bushing and bushing to roller
are likely to have expanded (or elongated) to the point where neither
wax or oil will survive for long in the gap. A little chain flex
during shifting, and the wax or oil is squeezed out. In mid 2019, I
was inspecting carefully disassembled old but clean chains where I had
doped the chain lube with UV dye tracer:
<https://www.amazon.com/Interdynamics-Certified-Fuel-Systems-Ounce/dp/B002M4G24U>
There were a few specks of oil left after a short ride on my trainer.
However, a fairly new and not very worn chain showed plenty of dye
marker. Note that I did not test any waxes.
In other words, methinks that getting the oil into the moving chain
parts is not the problem. It's keeping the oil there. My guess(tm)
is that wax, being a solid, does a better job of plugging the gaps and
sealing what little clean wax is left inside the bushings and keeping
the accumulated outside crud from getting inside.
wrote:
>On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>>
>> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>>
>> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
>> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
>> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
>> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
>
>LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>not surprising.
have been the original water displacement formulation, or one of the
growing collection of special purpose formulations:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/?category=bike>
This would be my best guess(tm) except that it was released in 2018,
while the Friction Facts tests were in 2013:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
Yech. 1 to 5% mineral oil. Lacking alternatives, it must be the
original water displacement formulation:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/handy-can/>
Hmmm... Aug 2021. "Petroleum base oil". Five different possible
classes of base oil:
<https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/understanding-types-of-lubricants-base-oil-groups/>
Maybe I should give up now while I'm still sane?
>I saw one video of someone showing how to do paraffin properly, using
>solid paraffin was combined with liquid paraffin oil. Of course most
>people using solid paraffin are adding some kind of liquid lubricant in
>the mix since paraffin by itself is not going to last very long.
the chain must be thoroughly cleaned and degreased. Anything worth
doing is also worth over-doing, which this video is a good example:
"Chain Cleaning Goes Ultrasonic! How Does It Work?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHFZyr7BMEo> (7:06)
Notice that there are two ultrasonic cleaners and four cleaning
potions involved.
I'm a fan of drip brush chain oilers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=drip+bruch+chain+oiler&tbm=isch>
They do a mediocre job of getting oil into the moving parts of the
chain. Instead, they do a tolerable job of washing off the dirt and
crud before it can stick to the moving parts. Such a system would
probably be more popular were it not for the complaints by nearby
riders of the resulting dirty oil spray.
>What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:
>
>"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
>complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
>lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
>Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.
>
>"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
>been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
>of The Bicycle Wheel
>
>"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
>In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
>quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
>Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.
>
>"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
>of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
>grease." Sheldon Brown
than oil.
I think the experts are ignoring the real problem. Claims and tests
of lubrication performance seem to always be based on what is required
to lubricate a nice new chain. That's fine for racers and big
spenders, but useless for casual riders who are likely to be riding
with a worn, rusted, or stretched chain. For those all too common
situations, the gap between the pin to bushing and bushing to roller
are likely to have expanded (or elongated) to the point where neither
wax or oil will survive for long in the gap. A little chain flex
during shifting, and the wax or oil is squeezed out. In mid 2019, I
was inspecting carefully disassembled old but clean chains where I had
doped the chain lube with UV dye tracer:
<https://www.amazon.com/Interdynamics-Certified-Fuel-Systems-Ounce/dp/B002M4G24U>
There were a few specks of oil left after a short ride on my trainer.
However, a fairly new and not very worn chain showed plenty of dye
marker. Note that I did not test any waxes.
In other words, methinks that getting the oil into the moving chain
parts is not the problem. It's keeping the oil there. My guess(tm)
is that wax, being a solid, does a better job of plugging the gaps and
sealing what little clean wax is left inside the bushings and keeping
the accumulated outside crud from getting inside.
Jeff Liebermann
Feb 28, 2022, 6:46:24 PM2/28/22
to
On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:43:51 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
>On 2/28/2022 11:22 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>Olive oil is very cheap when purchased in bulk, so I can see bicycle
>service departments heading to the Business Costco:
><https://bulkbycho.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Costco_business_center_drums.jpg>.
>
>> Minor quibble. Nobody except dangerous beginners ever use 30wt engine
>> oil to lubricate a chain saw bar (or mix with the gasoline).
>
>I was referring to 30W Bar and Chain Oil:
><https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-SAE-30-Bar-and-Chain-Oil-1-Quart-Bottle/16913789>.
>Yes, it's tacky, but you wipe the oil off the outside of the chain once
>the chain is lubricated.
I do the same with my chainsaw. The tackifier makes the oil very
sticky and messy. The stuff doesn't flow and doubt that any of it
ends up inside the moving chain parts. Also, this is the first time
I've seen bar and chain oil referred to as 30wt. Nothing on Stihl or
Husqvarna oils:
<https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/oils-and-lubricants/wdcttroil/>
<https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/x-guard-bar-and-chain-oil/>
However Echo lists it as 30wt in their specs:
<https://www.echo-usa.com/Products/Accessories/Fuel-Oils-Lubricants/PowerBlend/Bar-Chain-Oil>
"What Oil Can You Use on a Bike Chain?"
<https://www.pedalstreet.com/what-oil-can-you-use-on-a-bike-chain/>
"The thick oil creates too much of a hassle for frequent use. It can
easily collect dust and debris, making it a challenge to keep your
chain and gears clean."
"How good or bad would chainsaw bar lubricant be as a bicycle chain
lube?"
<https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/37399/how-good-or-bad-would-chainsaw-bar-lubricant-be-as-a-bicycle-chain-lube>
"Bar lube would perform horrible on a bicycle chain.
Well, bar lube must be fully bio-degradable, which chain lube is not
required to be. As such, bar lube is basically a vegetable oil, and
performs as such. It lubes all-right, but it's also rather sticky, and
it oxidizes over time."
The consensus is that bar oil is not suitable or not the best, but
might be useful during winter.
>> Maybe the chain gang should take a hint from belt driven bicycles,
>> which usually have a right seat stay splitter to allow for belt
>> changes?
>That would be nice but I think that it probably affects the structural
>integrity of the frame.
I don't think so, but I'm not sure. It's common for e-bike
conversions. Plenty to choose from:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=seat+stay+splitter+adapter&tbm=isch>
<https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/belt-drive-couplers>
>Two weeks ago I did a ride with my niece and sister-in-law. I looked at
>their bikes and asked "when was the last time you oiled your chain?"
>knowing that the answer would be "not since the last time you worked on
>our bikes two years ago." You know that the typical occasional rider is
>not going to remove their chain to soak it in warm oil, or heat up wax
>and dip it. But you might convince them to spray some foaming chain lube
>on the chain instead of WD-40, or instead of using 3 in 1 oil.
That's much like me asking my customers "When did you last backup your
computah?" Same answer. When I last did it for them.
I think you just proved one of my points. The issue is not getting
the oil or wax into the bushing. Rather it's keeping the lube in
there until maintenance can be performed. So, which lasts longer?
Wax, grease, or oil? I would be tempted to use a pressure cooker to
inject the wax, but I still like the brush oiler idea.
wrote:
>On 2/28/2022 11:22 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>Olive oil is very cheap when purchased in bulk, so I can see bicycle
>service departments heading to the Business Costco:
><https://bulkbycho.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Costco_business_center_drums.jpg>.
>
>> Minor quibble. Nobody except dangerous beginners ever use 30wt engine
>> oil to lubricate a chain saw bar (or mix with the gasoline).
>
>I was referring to 30W Bar and Chain Oil:
><https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-SAE-30-Bar-and-Chain-Oil-1-Quart-Bottle/16913789>.
>Yes, it's tacky, but you wipe the oil off the outside of the chain once
>the chain is lubricated.
sticky and messy. The stuff doesn't flow and doubt that any of it
ends up inside the moving chain parts. Also, this is the first time
I've seen bar and chain oil referred to as 30wt. Nothing on Stihl or
Husqvarna oils:
<https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/oils-and-lubricants/wdcttroil/>
<https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/x-guard-bar-and-chain-oil/>
However Echo lists it as 30wt in their specs:
<https://www.echo-usa.com/Products/Accessories/Fuel-Oils-Lubricants/PowerBlend/Bar-Chain-Oil>
"What Oil Can You Use on a Bike Chain?"
<https://www.pedalstreet.com/what-oil-can-you-use-on-a-bike-chain/>
"The thick oil creates too much of a hassle for frequent use. It can
easily collect dust and debris, making it a challenge to keep your
chain and gears clean."
"How good or bad would chainsaw bar lubricant be as a bicycle chain
lube?"
<https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/37399/how-good-or-bad-would-chainsaw-bar-lubricant-be-as-a-bicycle-chain-lube>
"Bar lube would perform horrible on a bicycle chain.
Well, bar lube must be fully bio-degradable, which chain lube is not
required to be. As such, bar lube is basically a vegetable oil, and
performs as such. It lubes all-right, but it's also rather sticky, and
it oxidizes over time."
The consensus is that bar oil is not suitable or not the best, but
might be useful during winter.
>> Maybe the chain gang should take a hint from belt driven bicycles,
>> which usually have a right seat stay splitter to allow for belt
>> changes?
>That would be nice but I think that it probably affects the structural
>integrity of the frame.
conversions. Plenty to choose from:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=seat+stay+splitter+adapter&tbm=isch>
<https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/belt-drive-couplers>
>Two weeks ago I did a ride with my niece and sister-in-law. I looked at
>their bikes and asked "when was the last time you oiled your chain?"
>knowing that the answer would be "not since the last time you worked on
>our bikes two years ago." You know that the typical occasional rider is
>not going to remove their chain to soak it in warm oil, or heat up wax
>and dip it. But you might convince them to spray some foaming chain lube
>on the chain instead of WD-40, or instead of using 3 in 1 oil.
computah?" Same answer. When I last did it for them.
I think you just proved one of my points. The issue is not getting
the oil or wax into the bushing. Rather it's keeping the lube in
there until maintenance can be performed. So, which lasts longer?
Wax, grease, or oil? I would be tempted to use a pressure cooker to
inject the wax, but I still like the brush oiler idea.
sms
Feb 28, 2022, 9:54:32 PM2/28/22
to
solvent changes before the chain runs clean, but it works really well to
have the links in motion through the solvent. I've seen a complaint
about how the chain is in dirty solvent but that's from people that
don't realize that it takes several solvent changes to get the chain
clean. You can also use those devices to oil the chain, but it's best to
have two separate units. The chain is at least submerged in the
lubricant. I also suppose you could heat the lubricant before pouring it
in. The key thing is to have a way to clean and lubricate the chain
without pushing out a pin (unless your chain has a link that can be
disconnected).
Frank Krygowski
Feb 28, 2022, 11:01:48 PM2/28/22
to
On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>>>
>>
>> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
>>
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>>
>>
>> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
>> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
>> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
>> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
>
> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
> not surprising.
"WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
> On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>>>
>>
>> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
>>
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>>
>>
>> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
>> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
>> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
>> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
>
> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
> not surprising.
scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.
I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
(apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
that way.
> What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:
>
> "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
> complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
> lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
> Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.
>
> "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
> been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
> of The Bicycle Wheel
>
> "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
> In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
> quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
> Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.
>
> "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
> of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
> grease." Sheldon Brown
discussion:
It's much more accurate to say "What the experts USED to say about chain
waxing." Again, I think that if Jobst and Sheldon had read the test
results linked above
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests
they would have said "Oh. I guess wax-based lubes do work best."
And really, data on comparative chain life was available long ago, even
if it was obscure. These images are from tests decades old, comparing a
wide variety of lubes then available in real world, on-road testing. Wax
gave the longest chain life by a large margin.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/8101576421/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/8101591380/in/dateposted-public/
Yes, hot dipping a chain is more trouble than spraying on some goop,
whether or not it foams. The benefits of wax-based lubes are less
friction loss, longer chain life and a much, much cleaner bike. And I
and some others I know do the wax application with the chain on the
bike. Performance-wise, it may not be quite as good as a hot wax bath,
but it takes much less time and trouble and works very well.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
Feb 28, 2022, 11:08:02 PM2/28/22
to
On 2/28/2022 5:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> Before one can apply the magic wax anti-friction elixir to the chain,
> the chain must be thoroughly cleaned and degreased.
I don't bother. I just add the wax-oil mix (maybe 5% to 10% oil, I never
>
> Before one can apply the magic wax anti-friction elixir to the chain,
> the chain must be thoroughly cleaned and degreased.
measured) with the chain on the bike. I do it by warming the chain
slightly, about a foot at a time, with a low flame propane torch; crayon
the wax-oil on, then reheat until the wax melts and flows in. Backpedal
a foot or so and repeat until the chain is all done.
> In other words, methinks that getting the oil into the moving chain
> parts is not the problem. It's keeping the oil there. My guess(tm)
> is that wax, being a solid, does a better job of plugging the gaps and
> sealing what little clean wax is left inside the bushings and keeping
> the accumulated outside crud from getting inside.
Perhaps. For whatever reason, it works better than liquid lubes, as
> parts is not the problem. It's keeping the oil there. My guess(tm)
> is that wax, being a solid, does a better job of plugging the gaps and
> sealing what little clean wax is left inside the bushings and keeping
> the accumulated outside crud from getting inside.
shown by Ceramicspeed and Bike World magazine data. And it's far, far
cleaner.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Jeff Liebermann
Mar 1, 2022, 1:58:45 PM3/1/22
to
On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:01:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
>> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>> not surprising.
>
>"WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
>scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
>reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.
>
>I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
>(apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
>it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
>applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
>that way.
I don't really care about the original intentions, when the major
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
>> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>> not surprising.
>
>"WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
>scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
>reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.
>
>I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
>(apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
>it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
>applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
>that way.
ingredients in WD-40 are the same components found in common chain oil
lubricants. Note the article title:
"What's Inside WD-40? Superlube's Secret Sauce"
<https://www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/>
Basically, it's mineral oil lube and some decane solvent.
Doctors endorse mineral oil as a lubricant:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil>
"It is recommended by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine
for use as a fertility-preserving vaginal lubrication."
If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.
sms
Mar 1, 2022, 2:03:42 PM3/1/22
to
But the bottom line is neither is very good at it.
From <https://clevercreations.org/can-wd-40-be-used-as-lubricant/>:
"While WD-40 does have some lubricating properties, it is not a good
lubricant and should not be used for this purpose. Using it on anything
that needs proper lubrication (bike chains, treadmills, garage doors,
etc.) will not give you the results you want.
The main reason for this is that only a fraction of WD-40 is made up of
lubricants. And these are only light mineral lubricants, unsuitable for
any serious friction or heat."
Jeff Liebermann
Mar 1, 2022, 5:07:01 PM3/1/22
to
On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
>On 3/1/2022 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.
>
>Water is both a solvent and a lubricant too.
I didn't mention anything about it being a solvent. The two choices
are a lubricant (it moves) or an adhesive (it doesn't move). Solvent
is something else.
>But the bottom line is neither is very good at it.
True. That's because when the solvents in WD-40 evaporate, what
remains is a sticky, jelly-like, goo. I haven't tried it with pure
mineral oil, but as I recall, it doesn't evaporate or leave any
residue. It's much like comparing pure (white) gasoline and modern
E10 gasoline. It's not the gasoline that causes problems. It's the
additives.
> From <https://clevercreations.org/can-wd-40-be-used-as-lubricant/>:
>"While WD-40 does have some lubricating properties, it is not a good
>lubricant and should not be used for this purpose. Using it on anything
>that needs proper lubrication (bike chains, treadmills, garage doors,
>etc.) will not give you the results you want.
>
>The main reason for this is that only a fraction of WD-40 is made up of
>lubricants. And these are only light mineral lubricants, unsuitable for
>any serious friction or heat."
True. However, the "real" chain lube also contains only a small
amount of actual lubricant, which happens to be mineral oil:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
<https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/bike/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-chain-lube-us-ghs-ca.pdf>
1 to 5% mineral oil. However, that's fine because the rest of the
concoction is a volatile solvent carrier which allows capillary action
to suck the dissolved mineral oil into the moving chain parts. The
volume of oil that can fit between the pin/sleeve, and sleeve/roller
is quite small. Want me to calculate the volume of oil required?
Incidentally, chain stretch is not due to lubrication failure. You
can lube the chain with clean water and it won't wear. The problem is
that dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc that mixes with the lube. If it
enters the moving parts (pin/sleeve/roller), it acts like an abrasive
and grinds away the metal. If I mount an electric water pump and
sprayer onto the bicycle, and apply a continuous spray rinse (with
some soap or detergent) to clean off the dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc,
I'm fairly sure that there will be little or no chain wear or stretch.
The only reason it's not done is because oil and wax are better and
such a pump and sprayer contraption is impractical for anything better
than a stationary bicycle. Too bad Friction Facts didn't test water
spray as a lubricant.
Drivel: I do knife sharpening on the side. I have some Japanese
water stones, and some Arkansas oil stones. Dry stones don't work. I
find that water stones and flowing water to be better at removing the
waste grit than oil.
wrote:
>On 3/1/2022 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.
>
>Water is both a solvent and a lubricant too.
are a lubricant (it moves) or an adhesive (it doesn't move). Solvent
is something else.
>But the bottom line is neither is very good at it.
remains is a sticky, jelly-like, goo. I haven't tried it with pure
mineral oil, but as I recall, it doesn't evaporate or leave any
residue. It's much like comparing pure (white) gasoline and modern
E10 gasoline. It's not the gasoline that causes problems. It's the
additives.
> From <https://clevercreations.org/can-wd-40-be-used-as-lubricant/>:
>"While WD-40 does have some lubricating properties, it is not a good
>lubricant and should not be used for this purpose. Using it on anything
>that needs proper lubrication (bike chains, treadmills, garage doors,
>etc.) will not give you the results you want.
>
>The main reason for this is that only a fraction of WD-40 is made up of
>lubricants. And these are only light mineral lubricants, unsuitable for
>any serious friction or heat."
amount of actual lubricant, which happens to be mineral oil:
<https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
<https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/bike/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-chain-lube-us-ghs-ca.pdf>
1 to 5% mineral oil. However, that's fine because the rest of the
concoction is a volatile solvent carrier which allows capillary action
to suck the dissolved mineral oil into the moving chain parts. The
volume of oil that can fit between the pin/sleeve, and sleeve/roller
is quite small. Want me to calculate the volume of oil required?
Incidentally, chain stretch is not due to lubrication failure. You
can lube the chain with clean water and it won't wear. The problem is
that dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc that mixes with the lube. If it
enters the moving parts (pin/sleeve/roller), it acts like an abrasive
and grinds away the metal. If I mount an electric water pump and
sprayer onto the bicycle, and apply a continuous spray rinse (with
some soap or detergent) to clean off the dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc,
I'm fairly sure that there will be little or no chain wear or stretch.
The only reason it's not done is because oil and wax are better and
such a pump and sprayer contraption is impractical for anything better
than a stationary bicycle. Too bad Friction Facts didn't test water
spray as a lubricant.
Drivel: I do knife sharpening on the side. I have some Japanese
water stones, and some Arkansas oil stones. Dry stones don't work. I
find that water stones and flowing water to be better at removing the
waste grit than oil.
John B.
Mar 1, 2022, 5:25:24 PM3/1/22
to
On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 10:58:36 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:01:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
>>> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>>> not surprising.
>>
>>"WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
>>scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
>>reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.
>>
>>I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
>>(apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
>>it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
>>applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
>>that way.
>
>I don't really care about the original intentions, when the major
>ingredients in WD-40 are the same components found in common chain oil
>lubricants. Note the article title:
>"What's Inside WD-40? Superlube's Secret Sauce"
><https://www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/>
>Basically, it's mineral oil lube and some decane solvent.
>
>Doctors endorse mineral oil as a lubricant:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil>
>"It is recommended by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine
>for use as a fertility-preserving vaginal lubrication."
>
>If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.
Try
https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/mup/wd-40-multi-use-product-aerosol-low-voc-sds-us-ghs.pdf
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:01:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
>>> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>>> not surprising.
>>
>>"WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
>>scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
>>reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.
>>
>>I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
>>(apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
>>it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
>>applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
>>that way.
>
>I don't really care about the original intentions, when the major
>ingredients in WD-40 are the same components found in common chain oil
>lubricants. Note the article title:
>"What's Inside WD-40? Superlube's Secret Sauce"
><https://www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/>
>Basically, it's mineral oil lube and some decane solvent.
>
>Doctors endorse mineral oil as a lubricant:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil>
>"It is recommended by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine
>for use as a fertility-preserving vaginal lubrication."
>
>If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.
https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/mup/wd-40-multi-use-product-aerosol-low-voc-sds-us-ghs.pdf
--
Cheers,
John B.
John B.
Mar 1, 2022, 5:54:05 PM3/1/22
to
On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:06:53 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
Youse guys is getten all carried away (:-)
Based on your arguments air is a lubricant (:-)
Look up "air lubricated bearings"
And your sharpening stones will, if formed into a circle and spun at
the correct speed, work perfectly well, as far as their sharpening
ability, dry (:-)
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
Based on your arguments air is a lubricant (:-)
Look up "air lubricated bearings"
And your sharpening stones will, if formed into a circle and spun at
the correct speed, work perfectly well, as far as their sharpening
ability, dry (:-)
--
Cheers,
John B.
Frank Krygowski
Mar 1, 2022, 8:35:15 PM3/1/22
to
Works fine for me.
--
- Frank Krygowski
0 new messages