real bike technical situation

[Mark Cleary]

I had a parishioner buy a Jamis Renegade bike bout 18 months ago. Great bike for road and gravel it is 65o wheel she is short. She brought it to me for tune but it really does not need much. My question is about the 105 shimano hydraulic brakes. I don't have them and just 2 days ago built up a bike that had mechanical disk and that was fine. However hydraulic are different. Do the brakes automatically adjust as the pad wear? She does not have really any pad wear and the brakes work fine but to me I wish at the lever they would bite quicker. They are not spongey as such but I would like the contact point to be that that lever does not need to be pull up as far to brake. Is there a way to do this?

Finally it seems these brakes are great compared the Tecto mechanical I just adjusted. These much smoother and easier to ride and they have zero rub issues. I just want the brake lever to pull up with less travel.

I have to say this is 631 Steel with 105 Shimano and a really nice bike. She got this at a shop in Springfield and I think because of the small size a good great deal. They wanted to move the think and it was middle of COVID. I assume this is a tubeless set up. The rims say it can be set for tubeless. I let out some air and seems no tube to push up but frankly I don't use tubeless, so not sure. The value stem did look like it was sealed at least on the inside but not outside indication other than not the typical Presti hole with tube poking through. I put are back in but should I put some sealant in the tire too? Help the deacon and take a break from ROE VS WADE.
Thanks
Deacon Mark

[Roger Merriman]

Mark Cleary <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a parishioner buy a Jamis Renegade bike bout 18 months ago. Great
> bike for road and gravel it is 65o wheel she is short. She brought it to
> me for tune but it really does not need much. My question is about the
> 105 shimano hydraulic brakes. I don't have them and just 2 days ago
> built up a bike that had mechanical disk and that was fine. However
> hydraulic are different. Do the brakes automatically adjust as the pad
> wear? She does not have really any pad wear and the brakes work fine but
> to me I wish at the lever they would bite quicker. They are not spongey
> as such but I would like the contact point to be that that lever does not
> need to be pull up as far to brake. Is there a way to do this?
>

Hydraulic self adjust ie like car brakes!

Some do have adjustable bite point, but I’ve not used 105 hydraulics, do
you have the model number?

> Finally it seems these brakes are great compared the Tecto mechanical I
> just adjusted. These much smoother and easier to ride and they have zero
> rub issues. I just want the brake lever to pull up with less travel.
>
> I have to say this is 631 Steel with 105 Shimano and a really nice bike.
> She got this at a shop in Springfield and I think because of the small
> size a good great deal. They wanted to move the think and it was middle
> of COVID. I assume this is a tubeless set up. The rims say it can be set
> for tubeless. I let out some air and seems no tube to push up but frankly
> I don't use tubeless, so not sure. The value stem did look like it was
> sealed at least on the inside but not outside indication other than not
> the typical Presti hole with tube poking through. I put are back in but
> should I put some sealant in the tire too? Help the deacon and take a
> break from ROE VS WADE.
> Thanks
> Deacon Mark
>

Sounds a cracking bike, generally with hydraulics you change pads and
that’s it, maybe service every few years ie change the oil.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Manual disks pull on only one side. Set up carefully this isn't much of a problem but as you note, there is more or less continuous adjusting to keep them from rubbing. Hydraulic brakes have dual pistons and squeeze about equally from both sides, They can still rub if not set up properly but Shimano is a breeze to bleed and adjust whereas other makes have various problems. (TRP are very difficult to bleed) Because the pressure on the disks are equal on both sides the Shimano pads tend to wear less than manual that aren't being continually adjusted.

It is rather easy to see if a bike is tubeless, the tubeless valve stems stand out rather well,
(https://www.ebay.com/itm/174806515741?hash=item28b347c01d:g:B8cAAOSw-2JhySoB&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4LT7hcbggyGKTJ5RjOnjgutC5D4zEzV%2B3bQ3kgQM%2FQkZqzyCOQq%2Bm384gnKdZ6x4Gb2vz7kpWwKv%2FZPy%2BVHLiHEYNhAx25dwej18TqwiOKuEfBDBTbUqxVQbbN2dTsnwN6IxxX%2BKMFV7tCQ00moaqJMNEh6GApWQaLUhm7p47AU%2F0Ow9IejmAgILViokuQGVVKiA615aMoxspAzENHY6a0QImqcLSHGWSpPpH1TLXpNJv6GrC4BP9PvmXsvYbDg97ypVCpPLNwCZCSZr5Qpt%2B9LsqAcH5HuyA237XT45zrwa%7Ctkp%3ABFBMwI_u3rhg)

If you loosen the locking nut and push the valve stem in there is a WHOOSH of the air leaking out. There are some slight advantages of tubeless but they are not flat free but rather flat rare. The problem, especially with 650b wheels is that it is very difficult to get tubeless tires onto the rims. And because tubeless tires are heavier than normal clinchers and you have to squirt sealant into them they are heavier than a clincher with an innertube though they do have somewhat lower rolling resistance,

But rolling resistance is somewhat over-rated.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 2:17:33 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Mark Cleary <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I had a parishioner buy a Jamis Renegade bike bout 18 months ago. Great
> > bike for road and gravel it is 65o wheel she is short. She brought it to
> > me for tune but it really does not need much. My question is about the
> > 105 shimano hydraulic brakes. I don't have them and just 2 days ago
> > built up a bike that had mechanical disk and that was fine. However
> > hydraulic are different. Do the brakes automatically adjust as the pad
> > wear? She does not have really any pad wear and the brakes work fine but
> > to me I wish at the lever they would bite quicker. They are not spongey
> > as such but I would like the contact point to be that that lever does not
> > need to be pull up as far to brake. Is there a way to do this?
> >
> Hydraulic self adjust ie like car brakes!

Only while the reservoir is full. With pad wear the reservoir can run low and it will not self adjust.

[AMuzi]

The current Shimano road hydraulic lever needs some special
reservoirs/adapters to properly work on their fluid system.
My advice to you is read the mind-numbingly-long technical
documents and get the Shimano service kit before even
thinking about doing anything to the system beyond new shoes.

Nice system by the way, but one cannot just 'jump in' and
wing it. RTFM.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Roger Merriman]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 2:17:33 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Mark Cleary <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I had a parishioner buy a Jamis Renegade bike bout 18 months ago. Great
>>> bike for road and gravel it is 65o wheel she is short. She brought it to
>>> me for tune but it really does not need much. My question is about the
>>> 105 shimano hydraulic brakes. I don't have them and just 2 days ago
>>> built up a bike that had mechanical disk and that was fine. However
>>> hydraulic are different. Do the brakes automatically adjust as the pad
>>> wear? She does not have really any pad wear and the brakes work fine but
>>> to me I wish at the lever they would bite quicker. They are not spongey
>>> as such but I would like the contact point to be that that lever does not
>>> need to be pull up as far to brake. Is there a way to do this?
>>>
>> Hydraulic self adjust ie like car brakes!
>
> Only while the reservoir is full. With pad wear the reservoir can run low
> and it will not self adjust.

Not ever experienced that, with any of my bikes over last few decades,
always adjusted, eventually they do get spongy but will keep adjusting.

>
>> Some do have adjustable bite point, but I’ve not used 105 hydraulics, do
>> you have the model number?
>>> Finally it seems these brakes are great compared the Tecto mechanical I
>>> just adjusted. These much smoother and easier to ride and they have zero
>>> rub issues. I just want the brake lever to pull up with less travel.
>>>

Snips

Roger Merriman

[Mark Cleary]

Thanks Andrew good point. Spent the afternoon looking over them and watching various videos and they system. Pretty much answers the questions that I had but of course experience from the forum can always help. It seems a lot less complicated than I thought pretty straightforward. Still need to research on is I need to add stuff to these tubeless tires. The lady was been riding around with a patch kit the past 1.5 years and tools that would do her absolutely no good. But to her credit she like to go up to Wisconsin to some long trail and ride for a few days. Seems it is hard packed not paved all the way but in places.
Deacon Mark

[Tom Kunich]

\We all used to take rather long rides on unpaved paths with older road bikes. I'm not sure that I would recommend it with carbon fiber but steel bikes are so forgiving of everything that I'm returning to it.

[Lou Holtman]

Youtube is your friend. Full of good stuff about Shimano hydraulic disk brakes. Paper manuals are something from the past.



Lou

[Tom Kunich]

That Youtube video on how to bleed their brakes allowed me to do the entire job in 20 minutes.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 10:36:35 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Youtube is your friend. Full of good stuff about Shimano hydraulic disk brakes. Paper manuals are something from the past.
>Lou

Agreed. YouTube is a good source for how-to information.
Unfortunately, there is also quite a bit of misinformation on YouTube.

I'm seeing a disturbing trend in product documentation. Initially,
the paper printed manuals became PDF's and HTML web pages. If
necessary, these can be printed. Now, I'm beginning to see an
increasing number of manuals that include imbedded videos, animations,
dials, knobs, Javascript slide rule calculators and such, all of which
are difficult or impossible to print. These manuals are intended to
be read on a computer, probably online, and with a large screen.
Reading online manuals on a tiny smartphone screen is quite difficult.
I've setup a few smartphone to large screen connections (USB-C,
mirror, screen cast, etc), so that the smartphone owner can view
documentation on a reasonable size screen. Large screen ePaper
tablets don't work with videos and animations. One reaction to this
trend seems to be an increasing number of printable "cheat sheets",
which contain most of the important information.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 11:29:53 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 10:36:35 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Youtube is your friend. Full of good stuff about Shimano hydraulic disk brakes. Paper manuals are something from the past.
> >Lou
> Agreed. YouTube is a good source for how-to information.
> Unfortunately, there is also quite a bit of misinformation on YouTube.
>
> I'm seeing a disturbing trend in product documentation. Initially,
> the paper printed manuals became PDF's and HTML web pages. If
> necessary, these can be printed. Now, I'm beginning to see an
> increasing number of manuals that include imbedded videos, animations,
> dials, knobs, Javascript slide rule calculators and such, all of which
> are difficult or impossible to print. These manuals are intended to
> be read on a computer, probably online, and with a large screen.
> Reading online manuals on a tiny smartphone screen is quite difficult.
> I've setup a few smartphone to large screen connections (USB-C,
> mirror, screen cast, etc), so that the smartphone owner can view
> documentation on a reasonable size screen. Large screen ePaper
> tablets don't work with videos and animations. One reaction to this
> trend seems to be an increasing number of printable "cheat sheets",
> which contain most of the important information.

Jeff, you don't ride a bike and never had an upper end sport bike. Why are you commenting about this?

[AMuzi]

Because the degradation of technical manuals is across the
culture, not only bicycles and equipment.

Shimano and Campagnolo deserve some credit for good clear
manuals with helpful drawings.

[Mark Cleary]

Well I feel pretty confident now. I have been through all the park tool and GCN videos on some hydraulic brake stuff. One even on some good hacks and they make perfectly good sense. Now I guess I have to get myself a disk brake road bike. Well maybe but I sort of would like one. Habanero will get me one for the best price and a customer already. Lynskey has also been in my mind but they don't have Shimano in just yet. Possible even a good steel road bike. I know for sure I what to stay away for Specialized and Trek nothing of the ordinary. What is the hot ticket road disk bike for someone with a complete old school road background? I just don't know. Canyon was getting some good reviews but really as expensive as Ti.
Deacon Mark

[Tom Kunich]

I have or had 5 different disk bikes and liked none of them. You can watch the Tour de France mechanics now taking a minute or more to change wheels. This says something about the difficulty in dealing the Disk wheels. Through axles are a particular pain in the butt. You have to use the ones designed specifically for your bike and they all have different widths. The newest bikes have fairings around the flat mounted actuators and that makes aligning the disk even more difficult. Despite claims otherwise they are ALL heavier than rim brakes. If they are using alloy disk mounts they can have very bad fade or even worse - the overheated disk can burn the pads off of their mounts leaving you with no brakes.

I very much doubt that you would ride that hard but it is a possibility and why the pros do not like disks.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Every single solitary pro bike racer in this year's Tour de France is riding a bike with disk brakes, and electronic shifting.

[Mark Cleary]

Really it is already happened and rim brakes are going fast. The question is when will they be obsolete and no longer in use? I do think that is a few years off for sure but my guess is they will not be going strong at all in 5 years. I personally have no real need for them in the flatlands. Rim brakes are fine and easy to deal with so it is not like they will disappear. But in a generation they will be gone. I would not want to ride bike with downtube shifters, and less than 10 speeds in the rear. Naturally I could manage fine and there are some very cool looking and riding bike with these vintage designs. I really like those cool steel bikes with straight top tubes, and lugged tubing and look, but really not something to ride everyday. Sort of like taking out your 1965 Pontiac Bonneville that is mint and driving it around.

What is the guess on when rim brakes are rarely seen on road rides?
Deacon Mark

[AMuzi]

While I do not always agree with Mr Krygowski, he has a very
good point about fashion. When I was new to nicer bicycles,
everything up from a Raleigh Record had centerpull brakes.
And then one day Eddy Merckx rode Campagnolo sidepulls and
the entire world changed. Poof!

Same with high flange hubs. They were cool until Eddy rode
small flange and that was that.

Now, one might parse Mafac Competition CP versus Campagnolo
Record SP all day long - weight, response, lever shape, peak
braking power, aerodynamics - and people did, passionately.
But they both stop the bike adequately and dependably.

[Tom Kunich]

Pro riders ride what their sponsors provide them with and sponsors WANT pros riding disk brakes because that means that all of the minions will be riding them and think that they are wonderful because they don't ride in the same speed regime. To get disks you have to have a specially built frame and component set. So WHAT is not for sponsors to like about disks? And people can always say with accuracy that everyone in the pro peloton is riding disk brakes. And the people who say that simply ignore the pros who complain about how bad they are. After enough people are injured because they do not know how bad disks really are, there will be a return to rim brakes and again what would be the negative on the part of sponsors? Everyone would be buying new frames and components all over again.

I have actually had many disk brakes and know their faults and having some idiot like Russell talk about them when he knows nothing about it just shows the sort of thinking that sells new bikes.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 14:57:23 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Every single solitary pro bike racer in this year's Tour de France is riding a bike with disk brakes, and electronic shifting.

As I vaguely recall, the demise of rim brakes has been announced
several times in the last few years. This is the oldest I could find:
"Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes and no one cares"
(Feb 19, 2020)
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/opinion/disc-brakes-default-no-one-cares/>

Disk brakes are the defacto standard for eBikes. These heavy weights
need all the stopping power they can get. Skim through these eBike
photos and see if you can find any eBike that uses rim brakes:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=ebike&tbm=isch>
I couldn't find any.

Skimming photos of Trek road and mountain bikes, they all have disk
brakes:
<https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/c/B200/>
(4 pages)
<https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/mountain-bikes/c/B300/>
(5 pages)
I did find a few rim brakes on Trek kids bikes:
<https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/c/B100/?q=:relevance&page=4&pageSize=24>
(7 pages)

Giant Bicycles (US) has 25 road bike models with disk brakes and 13
models with rim brakes:
<https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes/road-bikes>

Specialized road bikes show 73 models with disk brakes and 5 with rim
brakes:
<https://www.specialized.com/us/en/shop/bikes/road-bikes/c/road#/perpage:500>

I think the message is fairly clear. Disk brakes are the future and
rim brakes will soon be a tiny minority. It might take a few years
for the newer bicycles to displace the older models, and for older
inventory to be depleted, but once the trend has been established,
inertia will finish the job.

[Ralph Barone]

And also because paper and catchable PDFs can live on long after the
manufacturer has shuttered their web site.

[Ralph Barone]

Damned autocorrect. “Cacheable”

[Sir Ridesalot]

Rim brakes might just go the way of rod brakes = a niche market.

I've also noticed that rim brake pads are getting pretty expensive. A few years ago I went to buy some Shimano brake shoes and found that the price of a decent quality complete brake caliper with pads was only a dollar or so more than the Shimano brake pads.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 6:28:35 PM UTC-4, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> I would not want to ride bike with downtube shifters, and less than 10 speeds in the rear. Naturally I could manage fine and there are some very cool looking and riding bike with these vintage designs. I really like those cool steel bikes with straight top tubes, and lugged tubing and look, but really not something to ride everyday. Sort of like taking out your 1965 Pontiac Bonneville that is mint and driving it around.

Your statement on not wanting "less than 10 speeds in the rear" really surprises me. You say you live in the flatlands. What sort of gear r
ange do you really use on your bikes?

I think my riding territory is fairly lumpy, especially when I venture more than ten miles south or east, to the spots the glaciers never
scoured flat. It's easy for me to find 10% gradients. But even at my age, assuming no heavy luggage on the bike, my gears run from 35 gear inches to 100 gear inches. I get that using just five cogs and two chainrings on my favorite bike. Shifting isn't as instantaneous as more
modern systems, but that's never bothered me. Maximum rear cogs count on any bike here is 9.

- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Tommy boy, you being uneducated, you do not understand how the world works. Yes sponsors give bikes to racing teams. And for some teams like Trek, even name the team. Yes the bike companies want the potential customers to see the disk bikes and then buy the disk bikes for themselves. Increasing the profit of the bike companies by selling new bikes and new components. All true. But dimwitted you miss one key very important point. The team has to win!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the disk brake bikes don't win, then none of the sales will result. You got to win first. If the bike companies and teams they sponsor would win more with rim brakes, they would use rim brakes. Winning is the most important part. Winning is first. No matter what you use, if you win, then you can say it helped you win. But you got to win first. Apparently all the teams and bike companies think disk brakes help, or at least do not hinder, winning.

As I wrote above, EVERY single team racing the Tour de France this year is using disk brakes and electronic shifting. They all want to win the Tour de France. Winning the Tour is the most important objective for these teams.

[AMuzi]

https://bikes.fan/reid-classic-vintage-ebike-2022/

At the bottom end, price matters. For a race bikr it doesn't

[Roger Merriman]

To be fair racing (road) is one of the few areas that disks are not
terribly beneficial, in that they don’t use much wider tires, so dual
pivots would cope anyway.

And the mechanics seem to struggle with wheel changes.

The push for disks (road) has definitely been from the ground up and if
anything from the more causal side, or rather away from the racing snakes.

Is changing as rim brakes frames new are getting hard to find, at least on
the middle/high end.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

Disks are benificial in any cycling with using CF rims especialy in the wet downhill.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/5/2022 2:30 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Yes the bike companies want the potential customers to see the disk bikes and then buy the disk bikes for themselves. Increasing the profit of the bike companies by selling new bikes and new components. All true. But dimwitted you miss one key very important point. The team has to win!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the disk brake bikes don't win, then none of the sales will result. You got to win first. If the bike companies and teams they sponsor would win more with rim brakes, they would use rim brakes. Winning is the most important part.

I don't dispute that winning is paramount in bike racing. But I'm very
skeptical about disc brakes having anything significant to do with
winning a road race, let alone an extended stage race like the Tour.

Can anyone quantify the supposed benefit?

ISTM the eventual winner will be one of the very fastest guys. He will
have excellent team support. He will probably gain significant time
against his rivals on the toughest climbs. He may gain some time in time
trials. He generally doesn't need to out-sprint his top rivals, and he
certainly doesn't need to out-brake them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Charly Gaul in the Alps, no discs:
https://cycling-passion.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charly-Gaul.jpg


Andy Hampsten's spectacular Gavia descent - no discs:
http://www.cyclinglocations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/gavia-pass-andy-hampsten-giro-1988.jpg

[Jeff Liebermann]

That's not fair. That's a vintage bicycle, which means it's frozen in
time in the era when it was popular. It wouldn't be a classic,
vintage, or antique bicycle if someone adds modern brakes.

I'm afraid to look, but I haven't seen any Penny Farthing bicycles
with disk brakes, but have seen a few with rim brakes. Ok, I'll look:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=penny+farthing+bicycle&tbm=isch>
No disk brakes, but I found this kit:
<https://www.unicycle.co.uk/penny-farthing/penny-farthing-brake-kit.html>

Then, there's the Flying Pigeon:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=flying+pigeon+bicycle&tbm=isch>
which have probably been melted down to make mini-electric cars in
China.

Maybe vintage bicycles with coaster brakes:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=coaster+brake+bicycle&tbm=isch>
Hmmm... Coaster brake on the rear, and rim brake on the front:
<https://www.santafixie.com/en/coaster-brake-santafixie-30mm-rear-wheel-white.html>
There's probably someone riding a bicycle with disk brakes on the
rear, and rim brakes on the front, to make room for a front hub motor.
I was driving around in a borrowed car with drum brakes on the rear,
and disk brakes on the front. Indecision is the key to flexibility.

All we have demonstrated here is that old bicycle technology doesn't
completely disappear and there is a market for anachronisms. The
future is still in disk brakes.

[Lou Holtman]

The question is what Charlie and Andy would ride when they had the choice riders have now. Every time this silly posts says nothing. Eddy explained in a Belgium TV program that he would ride Di2 12 speed and disk brakes.

Lou

[AMuzi]

The model is called 'Vintage'. It's a current 2022 product

[AMuzi]

> The question is what Charlie and Andy would ride when they had the choice riders have now. Every time this silly posts says nothing. Eddy explained in a Belgium TV program that he would ride Di2 12 speed and disk brakes.
>
> Lou
>

I agree.
They would ride the best current equipment.

As Mr Krygowski notes here from time to time, and I agree
with him on this point, 'best' and 'adequate' are different.
Each has it place.

My front rim brake fixed bicycle is cutting edge technology
- for 1910. And yet it's a pleasant bike to ride.

[Lou Holtman]

Does anyone here disagrees with this?

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

The title says "Classic Vintage eBike 2022". I would call it a modern
reproduction or reconstruction.

You are correct that it's currently in production, which is the basic
criteria for disk brakes taking over the market. Of course, that begs
the question whether any ancient bicycle design from some bygone era
is magically transformed into a "classic vintage" by simply bolting on
an eBike motor and accessories. If I add an eBike motor to a Penny
Farthing, I could probably also sell it as a "classic vintage eBike
2022". Curses, they exist:
<https://www.standard.co.uk/tech/electric-penny-farthing-cyclopic-a4110151.html>
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2480952/A-modern-day-penny-farthing-Engineers-create-light-weight-puncture-proof-electric-version-Victorian-bicycle.html>
The first one seems to have rim brakes. Sigh. It's becoming
difficult to draw the line around "the market".

Gone to help a friend clean the mass airflow sensor, replace the
thermostat and "fix" the temp sensor on his Mercedes ML350. He tore
it apart, mixed everything up, and now wants me to put Humpty Dumpty
back together and clear the error codes. That's so a tow truck can
drag it to the dealer to replace some brake parts under the latest
recall notice.
<https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/mercedes-benz-says-to-stop-driving-these-recalled-suvs-a6346785543/>
Just what I didn't want to do today.

[Tom Kunich]

You don't suppose that major manufacturers are going to deny manual information to their users do you?

[Tom Kunich]

I was passed on a long climb by a couple of e-bikes today. They had motors in the bottom bracket. I don't see this as going away any time soon now. So you were right.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

My response was in reply to our Tommy boy claiming sponsors make all the pros ride disks so they can sell new bikes. And his previous claim that all the pros and their mechanics hate disk brakes.

As for benefits of disk brakes in races. Lou mentioned that with carbon deep aero wheels, disks are the only good way to stop them. And unlike all of us, pros do ride fast enough to gain significant time from using deep aero carbon wheels. So disk brakes help the pros compete and win the Tour de France. And all the other races too. Disk brakes are also faster, better at braking than rim brakes. Especially in the wet and descending long steep mountains. So pros can brake later going into a corner, slow quicker, and ultimately gain time going down a mountain. And if its raining, which it does in some pro races, they will have better braking and get to the bottom faster. If a pro gets to the bottom 1 minute faster and the finish line is 5 km away, he wins.

Another reason for disk brakes is uniformity. Everyone has disks now, so everyone brakes at the same pace now. No more dangerous mixing of rim and disk brakes. Raining. Going into a corner. Disk brake bikes will brake later because they have fast secure braking even in the rain. Rim brake bikes will have to brake earlier because they have slow poor braking. Hard to mix fast and slow bikes touching shoulders at every corner. Crashes will result. Kind of like the Indy 500 race cars. Every car goes about 200 mph. Plus or minus 1% or so. All pretty much the same speed. Imagine if 25% of the cars went 250 mph. 50% went 200 mph. 25% went 150 mph. There would be crashed every lap mixing speeds like that. Same thing with mixing different rates of braking with bicycles.

[Tom Kunich]

I completely agree with you and assume that disks were adapted because rim brakes wear out expensive carbon wheels. But carbon wheels are now falling rapidly in price so perhaps the disks which have entirely different problems of their own aren't the answer anymore.

[Tom Kunich]

There will never be another win like Andy's since the UCI decided to cancel races where conditions are difficult. While there is something to be said for that, it shuts out the toughest of the toughest.

[Tom Kunich]

And Eddy is selling bicycles. So I don't know just how far that goes.

Electric shifting on a pro bike is easily understood - there is absolutely NO shifting like Di2. While all of my bikes are manual except on one I have up for sale I admit the shifting is head and shoulders above manual. But manual is more than good enough So a pro should be using Di2 or the likes.

But disks are another matter. If you descend as fast as a pro they are a clear danger and we've seen several accidents caused by disk failure. Also because race bikes run a minimum UCI weight limit because disks are an extra pound and a half, they get this back by building the race bikes thinner and lighter. And they are breaking more and more often now.

[Roger Merriman]

Doesn’t seem to have panned out that way! In that it’s much more probable
that you’ll loose x seconds on a slow wheel change than, descend any
faster, not that doesn’t happen such as Matej Mohorič down the Poggio which
he claims was the dropper that helped!

Disks are great but road race doesn’t seem to play to their strengths. Ie
the bikes still are focused on aero gains, ie the tires are still fairly
narrow, and so on.

I believe that does for CX for obvious reasons and I’d suspect for Gravel
though that possibly is more the tire clearance vs braking performance as
such.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

I talked to a pro mechanic on another discussion site and he had no respect for disk brakes at all. While I doubt some of his claims, he said that because the disk brakes are so sudden riders are forced to go deeper into a turn than they would like. This cause a lot of overheating of the disk and problems like the oil in the lines to turn to steam so that the brakes disappear completely. Also diving into corners like that burns the pads off and it the cause of crashes. We know there are crashes, we see them all the time and pros are lining up to complain about disks.

I am completely with you about the very slow wheel changes. This CANNOT be helped. Not only do you have to line the disk up but you have to line the through axle up, wind the thing in and lock it down. Not a good idea.

[Roger Merriman]

Again this is something that is only something to worry about in a road
race.

For consumers etc, not much in it, I have QR/bolted/through axels across my
bikes, no difference for myself though given the choice I like though axel
and the way it works.

I’d put the Pro Mechanic along with Chris Froome ie some folks dislike
disks which is fine and dandy.

Folks have their preferences and all that, but the attempts to justify
aren’t believable.

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, that's _a_ question, but not necessarily _the_ question. Again, can anyone quantify the time or speed benefit
of disc brakes in a stage race on roads, like the Tour? I suspect it's zero. But I'm willing to listen,

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 7:52:18 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I am completely with you about the very slow wheel changes. This CANNOT
> > be helped. Not only do you have to line the disk up but you have to line
> > the through axle up, wind the thing in and lock it down. Not a good idea.
> >
> Again this is something that is only something to worry about in a road
> race.
>

> For consumers etc, not much in it...

I think there's a lot of cutting edge bike tech that, for consumers, there's not much in it.
I ride with some people that have done over 10,000 miles in recent years. They have no need for
instantaneous shifting (one of them shifts very rarely, and would probably do better with more
shifting). They have never had a braking problem that I've heard of, so don't need discs. And so on.

- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Yes. And people who follow the Mennonite faith, there is no reason for them to learn how to drive a vehicle. Or to know anything about electricity. Even how to plug into an outlet. But for most people, being able to drive is considered good. And knowing how to plug in a refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is beneficial. And how to cook food with an electric or gas stove. And use electric lights at night. Not kerosene burning lamps. Mennonites seem to prosper and live just fine around my area. So therefore, we should ban and outlaw and eliminate electricity. People don't need it. Mennonites live without it. So should you!!!!!!!!

[John B.]

Gee I hate to agree with Frank but I do suggest that you have it a
bit, well, cockeyed.

I've got three steel frame bikes all with rim breaking. Why should I
replace them? After all, they work perfectly well, no mechanical
problems. Will throwing them in the trash and spending as much as
$10,000 for a super duper fancy plastic bike with 'lectric shifting
improve my bicycleing? Make me faster? Able to climb hills like a
speeding jet plane?

So how better?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Op woensdag 6 juli 2022 om 06:44:49 UTC+2 schreef John B.:

Nobody is saying you or anyone else should replace bikes you are perfectly happy with.

Lou

[John B.]

I was responding to the "You gotta have electricity" post just above
and pointing out that while you probably need electricity in this day
and age you it doesn't necessarily correlate that the same logic
applies to bicycles. Or, if you would have it, that what applies to
electricity doesn't necessarily apply to bicycles (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

No used electronic gears, though have used E bikes! So no idea if it would
be the best thing since sliced bread. I suspect not since I’m happy with
mechanical, I suspect that it could be better but we at the marginal gains
here.

For disks, even on road since I’ve used disks for decades being the old
MTBer I am I knew it could be better.

And fro my use case ie steep and often dirty lanes rim brakes never did
great, yes absolutely I didn’t die from lack of brakes but I always wanted
better!

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving cars, cook stoves
etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.

I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic shifting,
carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal riders.

But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is supposed to be
a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!

So: Got numbers?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Luns Tee]

I can't speak for what Andy would choose to ride, but we can see what he sells.

https://www.hampsten.com/bikes

I see disk brakes only on the gravel bike. Rim brakes for everything else.

-Luns

[Tom Kunich]

This morning on the Tour one of their asides was of the Tour wheel vehicle. They have replacement bikes and wheels, Because of the weight of the quick release they are using ALLAN wrench fittings and each of those are different for different types of wheelsets. So it they have to provide wheels for a leader, it takes FOREVER to change wheels.

I agree that its no big deal for a normal road rider, but this is going the end with pressure from the riders and they will return to rim brakes. That will knock a pound and a half off of the bikes and allow them to make the framesets stronger.

I wonder if any bikes broke on the cobbles today?

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 11:54:22 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/6/2022 12:32 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 10:46:55 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I think there's a lot of cutting edge bike tech that, for consumers, there's not much in it.
> >> I ride with some people that have done over 10,000 miles in recent years. They have no need for
> >> instantaneous shifting (one of them shifts very rarely, and would probably do better with more
> >> shifting). They have never had a braking problem that I've heard of, so don't need discs. And so on.
> >>
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > Yes. And people who follow the Mennonite faith, there is no reason for them to learn how to drive a vehicle. Or to know anything about electricity. Even how to plug into an outlet. But for most people, being able to drive is considered good. And knowing how to plug in a refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is beneficial. And how to cook food with an electric or gas stove. And use electric lights at night. Not kerosene burning lamps. Mennonites seem to prosper and live just fine around my area. So therefore, we should ban and outlaw and eliminate electricity. People don't need it. Mennonites live without it. So should you!!!!!!!!
> I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving cars, cook stoves
> etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.

But I mentioned that the Mennonite (actually it may be Amish) people around me get along just fine without the advantages and complexities of electricity and cars and computers. So shouldn't we use them as an example and go backwards and not use this so called fictitious advancement of disc brakes?

>
> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic shifting,
> carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal riders.

I used Google with the following search "difference in braking distances for drums and discs". This is what came up:
"Disc brakes enhance safety by providing shorter stopping distances than drum brakes and improving trailer in-line braking stability. The stopping distance for disc brakes can be 25 to 30 feet less than drum brakes, depending on tires, speed, conditions and the braking system on the tractor."

So for cars, disc brakes make stopping faster, and safer. Same logic should apply to bicycles too. Unless you think stopping faster on a bicycle is not an improvement? Should bicycles take 100 yards to stop from 10 mph? Is that better than only needing 100 feet to stop?

And just in case you argue that disc brakes on cars and bicycles is not related. An analogy. Antibiotics are used in human medicine to reduce infections. Veterinarians also use antibiotics when treating animals. Same logic works. Just as it does for cars and bicycles and disc brakes and lesser rim/drum brakes.

>
> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is supposed to be
> a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!

My quote above does have "stopping distance for disc brakes can be 25 to 30 feet less than drum brakes". So those should be good enough for numbers.

[AMuzi]

I don't like or dislike disc brakes for bicycles; I have no
argument either way generally.

But your argument isn't right. Bicycles skid well before
peak braking power can be reached in most cases.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/6/2022 6:25 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 11:54:22 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/6/2022 12:32 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 10:46:55 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think there's a lot of cutting edge bike tech that, for consumers, there's not much in it.
>>>> I ride with some people that have done over 10,000 miles in recent years. They have no need for
>>>> instantaneous shifting (one of them shifts very rarely, and would probably do better with more
>>>> shifting). They have never had a braking problem that I've heard of, so don't need discs. And so on.
>>>>
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Yes. And people who follow the Mennonite faith, there is no reason for them to learn how to drive a vehicle. Or to know anything about electricity. Even how to plug into an outlet. But for most people, being able to drive is considered good. And knowing how to plug in a refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is beneficial. And how to cook food with an electric or gas stove. And use electric lights at night. Not kerosene burning lamps. Mennonites seem to prosper and live just fine around my area. So therefore, we should ban and outlaw and eliminate electricity. People don't need it. Mennonites live without it. So should you!!!!!!!!
>> I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving cars, cook stoves
>> etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.
>
> But I mentioned that the Mennonite (actually it may be Amish) people around me get along just fine without the advantages and complexities of electricity and cars and computers. So shouldn't we use them as an example and go backwards and not use this so called fictitious advancement of disc brakes?

Not if we're trying to demonstrate technical or logical competence. The
concept of "Advantages vs. disadvantages" or "benefits vs. detriments"
is not binary. It's best applied quantitatively, with actual (gasp!)
numbers.

>> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic shifting,
>> carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal riders.
>
> I used Google with the following search "difference in braking distances for drums and discs". This is what came up:
> "Disc brakes enhance safety by providing shorter stopping distances than drum brakes and improving trailer in-line braking stability. The stopping distance for disc brakes can be 25 to 30 feet less than drum brakes, depending on tires, speed, conditions and the braking system on the tractor."
>
> So for cars, disc brakes make stopping faster, and safer. Same logic should apply to bicycles too. Unless you think stopping faster on a bicycle is not an improvement? Should bicycles take 100 yards to stop from 10 mph? Is that better than only needing 100 feet to stop?
>
> And just in case you argue that disc brakes on cars and bicycles is not related. An analogy. Antibiotics are used in human medicine to reduce infections. Veterinarians also use antibiotics when treating animals. Same logic works. Just as it does for cars and bicycles and disc brakes and lesser rim/drum brakes.
>
>
>>
>> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is supposed to be
>> a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!
>
> My quote above does have "stopping distance for disc brakes can be 25 to 30 feet less than drum brakes". So those should be good enough for numbers.

Sorry, that's a failure. You provided no details or context, but you
appear to have found something regarding brakes for a motor vehicle plus
trailer combination. That's a very different physics problem than a
bicycle.

Some (very few) cars can achieve braking decelerations over one "gee" -
that is, greater than the acceleration of gravity. The top Porsche in
this site https://www.brembo.com/en/company/news/50-special is achieving
over 1.28 g. (Some other references yield bigger decelerations for more
radical cars.)

But that > 1g deceleration is absolutely not possible with a
conventional bicycle. Bike decelerations are limited to maybe 0.7g by
pitchover, due to the relatively high center of mass of the bike+rider.
That means differences in stopping distance between a disc bike and
(say) my cantilever bike would be minimal under typical conditions. IOW,
once you're in a nose wheelie you can't stop any faster.

And as I've mentioned many times, I've never heard of any of the
hundreds of members of our club, or any other cyclist I've known,
getting in a crash because of a lack of stopping power. The only time I
personally got sort of, kind of, vaguely close was in my very earliest
days, riding dimpled chrome steel rims with Balilla center pulls on a
steep downhill in a pouring rainstorm. Scary, but still, no crash.

If non-disc brakes were really a problem for typical riders, we'd have
heard a lot about that problem in the ~50 years I've been avidly riding.
The problems are mythical marketing tales, joyfully spread by the usual
cohort of hand wringing "Bicycling is DANGEROUS!" bicyclists.

The same thinking applies to instantaneous electronic shifting (because
taking half a second to shift is terrible?), carbon fiber (to lose five
pounds from a 230 pound bike+overweight rider?), aero wheels (when 80%
of the drag is the rider's body and most people ride slowly?) and more.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/6/2022 7:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
> If non-disc brakes were really a problem for typical riders, we'd have
> heard a lot about that problem in the ~50 years I've been avidly riding.
> The problems are mythical marketing tales, joyfully spread by the usual
> cohort of hand wringing "Bicycling is DANGEROUS!" bicyclists.

Hey, this just in! Electrons hot off the press!

It's a quiet evening here. My wife and I are relaxing at home, and we
just heard a long piercing "SCREECH! SCREECH! SCREEEEEETCH ... SCREECH!"
My wife asked "What's THAT??" and I saw a roadie bike rider in full
mating plumage pull into our neighbor's driveway.

I thought it was my neighbor, who has frequently asked me for bike
mechanical help, so I texted "Were those your brakes squeaking? Do you
want me to take a look?"

She responded "LOL! Those were my friend's disc brakes. That's why I
like my rim brakes."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Sloppy setup and poor maintenance are not unique to one
brake format or another. I speak from a very great deal of
experience here.

[Tom Kunich]

And at what point did drum brakes which are on cars related to disk brakes on bicycles which as you say are limited by traction and not braking power.

[Frank Krygowski]

Oh, I've heard plenty of squeals from caliper brakes of various types.
But honestly, I don't recall hearing one as loud as tonight's.

My personal worst experience with squeal was maybe six years ago. A very
good riding friend of mine passed away due to cancer. The following year
his widow organized a memorial ride for the club, visiting sites that
were important to him as well as his grave. Of course I attended.

Well, that was when my previously silent rear cantilevers decided to
begin squeaking whenever I used them. Most embarrassing! But I quickly
fixed them during the cemetery stop by adding a smidgen of toe-in.

From what I've heard, the problem with the discs is most likely
contamination of disc and/or shoes. But the guy in the next house over
is a former bike mechanic. I'll let him take care of it.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

That clearly is a choice by manufacturers, as while top 3 tiers of Shimano
groupset are electronic only can still get rim brakes. But for bike
manufacturers high end rim brake bikes is going to be such a narrow edge
case. Hence though you can get the groupset, getting a high end bike is a
fairly short list now.

>
> I wonder if any bikes broke on the cobbles today?

None that I’m aware of, but most carbon snaps is crashing rather than the
riding over cobbles and what not.

Roger Merriman.
>

[Roger Merriman]

All braking systems can lock tires, but good hydraulics will allow you to
modulate right on the edge of locking.

The idea that it’s good because I can lock my wheels up is flawed at best.

And it’s not apples to apples, with disks, tire clearances have improved,
ie more rubber on the ground and thus better braking.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Disks and I’ve noted a few times, was something driven by consumers.

Note how long before they reached racing or high end bikes, even though
they had been used by folks on the commute/hacking about the woods ie early
gravel bikes/CX.

If anything manufacturers where rather slow off the mark, considering the
desire to have better brakes.

Roger Merriman.

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 07.07.2022 um 00:25 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
> On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 11:54:22 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski
> wrote:
>> On 7/6/2022 12:32 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:

>> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic
>> shifting, carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal
>> riders.
>
> I used Google with the following search "difference in braking
> distances for drums and discs". This is what came up: "Disc brakes
> enhance safety by providing shorter stopping distances than drum
> brakes and improving trailer in-line braking stability. The stopping
> distance for disc brakes can be 25 to 30 feet less than drum brakes,
> depending on tires, speed, conditions and the braking system on the
> tractor."
>
> So for cars, disc brakes make stopping faster, and safer. Same logic
> should apply to bicycles too.

Please re-formulate: After a root-cause analysis for this difference,
you might or might not find that disc brakes make stopping faster for
bicycles.

I happen to remember a little of bit the discussion concerning motor bikes:
a) The tire - road interface has my aroud 1, so you'd expect a maximum
bkaking performance on the order of 10m/s°2. Any brake that is too weak
to lock a tire at low speed (when anti-lock measures are deactivated) is
unacceptably bad.

b) at high speed, brake mechanisms head up, reducing performance.
(called 'brake fade'). Disc brakes have a better cooling performance
than drum brakes (rim brakes count as disc brakes for that matter).

For motor bikes with a top speed of 80 mph, a drum brake was perfectly
fine up till around 1980.

At times when cars had drum brakes, you had to shift into a low gear
going downhill to prevent brake heat-up. With modern disc brakes
capable to stop from 130 mph on a German highway, going downhill does
not require you to switch into low gear unless you pull a heavy trailer.

> Unless you think stopping faster on a
> bicycle is not an improvement? Should bicycles take 100 yards to
> stop from 10 mph? Is that better than only needing 100 feet to
> stop?

One is as cr*p as the other. A service brake must be able to bring a
realistic stopping decelertation of at least 5m/s^2 bringing you to a
stop in 2.5m (I'm guessing 7 or 8 feet, not doing exact calculations in
imperal measures); typical bicycle brakes should deliver 6 or 7 m/s^2
before the rear hweel lifts. This limit is reached for disc brakes, for
most drum brakes and for rim brakes.

>> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is supposed
>> to be a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!
>
> My quote above does have "stopping distance for disc brakes can be 25
> to 30 feet less than drum brakes". So those should be good enough
> for numbers.

Politicians may take any random number out of the internet, engineers
should analyze.

Rolf

[Tom Kunich]

I've had 5 or six disk brake bikes and that has absolutely NOT been my experience. They ALL locked too easily.

[Tom Kunich]

Rim brakes are NOT drum brakes - they are large disk brakes,. The only reason for disks was to protect your expensive carbon wheels from rim wear. They have no other purpose. And the smaller diameter of the disk means that it is MORE sensitive to locking.

Quite frankly, I have no idea of why riders who actually used them would say otherwise.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/7/2022 7:24 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>
>
> At times when cars had drum brakes, you had to shift into a low gear
> going downhill to prevent brake heat-up.  With modern disc brakes
> capable to stop from 130 mph on a German highway, going downhill does
> not require you to switch into low gear unless you pull a heavy trailer.

Vaguely related anecdote time:

My wife and I were on vacation, leaving Yellowstone National Park,
towing a ~850 lb camping trailer behind our little car. As we began a
long, long mountain descent I felt something weird in the brakes and
heard terrible scraping noises each time I touched the pedal. I still
had brakes, at least to some degree, but it was obvious we were suddenly
in a metal on metal situation. That didn't give me confidence.

The territory was very remote. I didn't want to scare my wife, so I said
nothing. Over something like 20 miles of steep downhill, I made use of
heavy downshifting plus the rear wheel parking brake to control the
car's speed. I used the brake pedal only when absolutely necessary.

We eventually limped into a small town, and I told my wife "Our brakes
are noisy. I think we need a pad replacement." At a repair shop, I found
that a disc pad had sheared off its metal base, probably somehow caused
by gravel on one of Yellowstone's roads.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

You've made that claim, but I don't buy it.

Again, _none_ of my road riding friends ever mentioned any problems with
their brakes before road discs became the fashion. Mountain bikes? Sure,
those guys benefited from discs. But road bikers had no rim failures, no
significant wet weather braking loss, no other problems. Almost all are
still happily riding rim brakes, and when the question (rarely) comes
up, they say "My brakes are fine!"

Those few who have bought bikes in the past year or two have mostly
gotten discs. I think that's because of two factors: 1) That's what the
manufacturer put on the bike they were looking at; and 2) the shop guy
told them "Disc brakes are better."

FWIW, I haven't discussed this in detail with any of those folks. I've
felt sorry for the friend whose new bike's discs required a couple trips
back to the shop to stop weird intermittent noises; and for the bike
tourist who ran out of disc pad material during a hilly tour; and for
the bike tourist who needed me to fix his rear rack but said he'd
continue putting up with his discs scraping as he rode; and for the
friend of our neighbor whose discs were screaming like a banshee last
night. But I haven't asked any "Why the heck did you get discs?"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

>> Disks and I’ve noted a few times, was something driven

In fairness, Mr Merriman has a point.

For both offroad (his area of cycling expertise) as well as
for people new to bicycles, discs are requested if not
demanded. No other feature will make up for no discs.

Tourists, club riders, commuters, not-top-level race bike
riders go both ways. And plenty of those bikes are offered
with and without.

[Roger Merriman]

Then you needed to ask out of your bubble. Two groups where and are
resistant to change even for the road market, are the racers and touring
types.

places like Regents/Richmond park which are racing/club centric full of
lots of shiny carbon rim braked bikes, even now.

Less racy clubs and areas much more disks. And this has been for years, I
can remember years if not decades back conversations with club or otherwise
cyclists re why on earth isn’t there hydraulic road disk

>
> Those few who have bought bikes in the past year or two have mostly
> gotten discs. I think that's because of two factors: 1) That's what the
> manufacturer put on the bike they were looking at; and 2) the shop guy
> told them "Disc brakes are better."
>
> FWIW, I haven't discussed this in detail with any of those folks. I've
> felt sorry for the friend whose new bike's discs required a couple trips
> back to the shop to stop weird intermittent noises; and for the bike
> tourist who ran out of disc pad material during a hilly tour; and for
> the bike tourist who needed me to fix his rear rack but said he'd
> continue putting up with his discs scraping as he rode; and for the
> friend of our neighbor whose discs were screaming like a banshee last
> night. But I haven't asked any "Why the heck did you get discs?"
>

Mistreatment or ignorance of a device doesn’t make it bad, after all still
see plenty of V brakes with the straddle wire un clipped, or folks that
blew their tire wall out and so on.

Living on a wet island even if the driest part, I can assure you that rims
really do loose a lot of power in the wet, and that’s just on flat commute
across london let alone into the hills.

Does that matter for the Sunday best bike? No which has been my point that
cycling even road isn’t homogeneous.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Well, while MTB's can benefit from disks because their tires can slide, I am quite sure that it is a passing fad on road bicycles. The idea that a disk which is much smaller than the rim of a bike can be better modulated is a dream which will eventually be understood to be wrong.

[Roger Merriman]

That is though the general experience of folks, realistically it’s only
roadies who have been so resistant to it.

Been enthusiastic taken up by leisure/commuters on hybrids and so on.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

Cars benefit from disks for two reasons - drums can and do fade and cars have more traction than necessary for braking.

[Roger Merriman]

Road tires even old school 20c as long as it’s a smooth dry road loads of
grip.

Do Gravel and more modern road wider tires have better grip? Yes but on
good smooth roads it’s not a big leap, I can see my times down stuff like
Mt Teide 20+ miles of flowing roads are all nicely bracket together.

Being sensible and leaving the hotel early plus feeding myself properly
made a much bigger difference up!

On a wet gritty potholed decent, I’d take the gravel bike every time. On a
nice summer day rolling down a lovely smooth decent rim brakes would be
absolutely fine.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

If you believe for one second that a 20 mm tire has "plenty of grip" I invite you to do a ride with me on our roads here in California. Tuesday's final descent included large and dangerous humps from tree roots all the way out to past the half way mark in the road and several with no trees anywhere near them. Then the road was broken up so much that potholes were on either side of dead center in the road as heavy trucks continuously take the "No Trucks Allowed" routes and it is too much for the thinner asphalt. One block from me the road is broken almost into gravel with large potholes in the sections that still have pavement.

Completely aside from this 23 mm tires which became the standard for so long did not have particularly good traction and dust on the roads would slide the tire out from under you on even mild turns. I am very surprised after riding 28's that didn't become the standard far earlier because they HAD to have tire engineers that knew that wider tires had less rolling resistance.

[Roger Merriman]

Hence I said as long as it’s smooth dry roads, which is not what your
describing!

On such roads wider tires would be wise.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

Even wider tires do not give sufficient traction on crumby roads. That's why you watch all the crashes in Paris-Roubaix

[Frank Krygowski]

I've never questioned the benefits of discs for mountain biking or
off-road. But anywhere around here, typical bicycling is not mountain
biking nor even gravel riding. Yet many are pushed toward discs.

People new to bicycling may demand discs, but that's a reaction to
marketing, undefended by background knowledge. It's similar to cheap,
heavy front suspension for a MUP bike. I've guided more than one newbie
away from that choice.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 7/7/2022 4:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/7/2022 12:24 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/7/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/7/2022 7:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 7/6/2022 12:32 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 10:46:55 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>> frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there's a lot of cutting edge bike tech that,
>>>>>>> for consumers,
>>>>>>> there's not much in it.
>>>>>>> I ride with some people that have done over 10,000
>>>>>>> miles in recent
>>>>>>> years. They have no need for
>>>>>>> instantaneous shifting (one of them shifts very rarely,
>>>>>>> and would
>>>>>>> probably do better with more
>>>>>>> shifting). They have never had a braking problem that
>>>>>>> I've heard of, so
>>>>>>> don't need discs. And so on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Yes. And people who follow the Mennonite faith, there
>>>>>> is no reason for
>>>>>> them to learn how to drive a vehicle. Or to know
>>>>>> anything about
>>>>>> electricity. Even how to plug into an outlet. But for
>>>>>> most people,
>>>>>> being able to drive is considered good. And knowing how

>>>>>> to plug in a
>>>>>> refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is

>>>>>> beneficial. And
>>>>>> how to cook food with an electric or gas stove. And use
>>>>>> electric lights
>>>>>> at night. Not kerosene burning lamps. Mennonites seem
>>>>>> to prosper and
>>>>>> live just fine around my area. So therefore, we should
>>>>>> ban and outlaw
>>>>>> and eliminate electricity. People don't need it.
>>>>>> Mennonites live
>>>>>> without it. So should you!!!!!!!!

>>>>>
>>>>> I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving
>>>>> cars, cook stoves
>>>>> etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic
>>>>> shifting,
>>>>> carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal
>>>>> riders.
>>>>>
>>>>> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is
>>>>> supposed to be
>>>>> a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!
>>>>>
>>>>> So: Got numbers?
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> Disks and I’ve noted a few times, was something

There's not enough bicycle industry marketing to convince
anyone of anything. Your average non cyclist knows that cars
are disc at least in front and they're 'better'. Thus ends
the extent of your average consumer's knowledge

[Frank Krygowski]

Of course - those who never learn much about cycling, and who are most
vulnerable to marketing. As I replied to Andrew, the same crew that
accepts cheap suspended forks for riding on their bike paths.

In their defense, they probably won't have serious problems with their
discs, assuming they learn quickly enough to squeeze the brake lever
with only one or two fingers. It will be many years before they
accumulate enough miles to wear out the first set of pads. With
reasonable luck the replacement pads won't be unobtainable until the
second set has worn out.

By then the salesman will convince them that their terribly old
fashioned discs are dangerous, and that they need a bike with
brake-by-wire and built in anti-skid, or whatever the next marketing
"churn" is.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, there is _Buycycling_ magazine, for those who are just getting
interested. There used to be in-shop brochures, but I suppose those have
been supplanted by websites.

But to influence the choice of disc brakes on a bicycle, the industry
doesn't have to saturate prime time television. They can simply supply
far more disc brake models than rim brake models. The sales person can
easily do the rest: "This model has disc brakes!" vs. "Well, that model
lacks disc brakes." If there's a question about that, the only necessary
response is "Discs are safer. They stop better."

As we probably understand by now, everything must become safer every year.

BTW, for an off-topic parallel, I now know quite a few people who have
sprung for four wheel (or all wheel) drive on their latest car. The
logic is much the same: It's advertised as a "feature" so it must be
better. Nobody bothers to think about the fact that they've never needed
it in their past 30+ years of driving. "It's better!"

One friend bought the same model we used to have, but in an automatic
AWD version. She's getting about 25 mpg. We were frequently breaking 40
mpg, which admittedly is way more than expected.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 7/7/2022 5:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/7/2022 6:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/7/2022 4:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/7/2022 12:24 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/7/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 7/7/2022 7:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/6/2022 12:32 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 10:46:55 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think there's a lot of cutting edge bike tech that,
>>>>>>>>> for consumers,
>>>>>>>>> there's not much in it.
>>>>>>>>> I ride with some people that have done over 10,000
>>>>>>>>> miles in recent
>>>>>>>>> years. They have no need for
>>>>>>>>> instantaneous shifting (one of them shifts very
>>>>>>>>> rarely,
>>>>>>>>> and would
>>>>>>>>> probably do better with more
>>>>>>>>> shifting). They have never had a braking problem that
>>>>>>>>> I've heard of, so
>>>>>>>>> don't need discs. And so on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Yes. And people who follow the Mennonite faith,

>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is no reason for

>>>>>>>> them to learn how to drive a vehicle. Or to know
>>>>>>>> anything about
>>>>>>>> electricity. Even how to plug into an
>>>>>>>> outlet. But for
>>>>>>>> most people,
>>>>>>>> being able to drive is considered good. And

>>>>>>>> knowing how
>>>>>>>> to plug in a
>>>>>>>> refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is

>>>>>>>> beneficial. And
>>>>>>>> how to cook food with an electric or gas stove.ÂÂ
>>>>>>>> And use
>>>>>>>> electric lights
>>>>>>>> at night. Not kerosene burning lamps.ÂÂ

>>>>>>>> Mennonites seem
>>>>>>>> to prosper and

>>>>>>>> live just fine around my area. So therefore, we
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> ban and outlaw
>>>>>>>> and eliminate electricity. People don't need it.
>>>>>>>> Mennonites live
>>>>>>>> without it. So should you!!!!!!!!

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving
>>>>>>> cars, cook stoves
>>>>>>> etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes,
>>>>>>> electronic
>>>>>>> shifting,
>>>>>>> carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal
>>>>>>> riders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is
>>>>>>> supposed to be
>>>>>>> a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So: Got numbers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Disks and I’ve noted a few times, was

Right, this has turned toward psychological trends and
information exposure and retention by The Great Unwashed
rather than 'tech'.

Buycycling has a pathetically small circulation compared to
the actual world as we find it. Influential among some
cyclists but not to the population generally.

You mention boinger forks. No one has ever asked me to
discuss them conceptually. Ever. Riders who ride seriously
offroad ask for a specific fork, a specific modification, a
specific remote lock. Sometimes ask for advice about those
subjects. New bike customers for 'that offroad look' bicycle
gravitate to springy forks where the price increment seems
reasonable to them over a rigid fork model. But there's
never a discussion of 'do I want this?'. Motorcycles as a
product are well known[1] and cost more and have shock forks
so a facsimile or mockery of an actual shock fork seems de
rigeur for an inexpensive offroad bicycle.

Disc brakes fall more into that sort of thought process for
most entry level riders.

[1] Knowing absolutely nothing of actual motorcycles,
everyone 'knows' all they need to know. Motorcycles have
boinger forks. They are a good thing to have. Q.E.D.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On a touring bike I prefer V-type brakes over cantilever brakes. That's because there's less chance of the brake calipers interfering with where I want to place my panniers and I imaging that disc brakes would be even better for that reason.

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

I suspect that you're 100% correct. I don't think that they have that large an audience for the Tour de France considering that they moved it off of NBC sports and put it on USA and Peacock so that they could put the US Open golf on NBC Sports. This suggests that the audience for any sort of bicycle marketing is pretty small. Trek has a policy of "buy our bikes and we'll decide for you."

But I think that will be future trouble for them since people are NOT going to service their pads on time.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 18:12:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>By then the salesman will convince them that their terribly old
>fashioned discs are dangerous, and that they need a bike with
>brake-by-wire and built in anti-skid, or whatever the next marketing
>"churn" is.

Think different and compromise.
Rim brakes on the rear, disc brakes on the front:
"Converting Your Bike to a Hybrid Disc/Rim Brake Setup" (May 2017)
<https://i0.wp.com/www.roadbikerider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/ColnagoC59leftside.WEB.jpg>
<https://www.roadbikerider.com/converting-your-bike-to-a-hybrid-disc-rim-brake-setup-part-1-d2/>
<https://www.roadbikerider.com/converting-your-bike-to-a-hybrid-disc-rim-brake-setup-part-2-d3/>
a) disc brakes are better brakes, possessing greater
stopping power with less force applied,
b) rim brakes on carbon fiber wheels just don’t
have the same modulation (rider-adjusted input) as
discs and
c) rim brakes on carbon fiber wheels are less reliable
than discs, especially in wet conditions.
Notice that the front disc brake is a cable brake, not hydraulic, to
make the front and rear brakes feel similar.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Roger Merriman]

With all brakes, they feel different and would need different levels of
pull force. All of my bikes (all hydraulic) have different levels of bite.
Though less differences that used to be as I upgraded the MTB and moved its
set to the commute beastie and so on.

Flat bars are designed to be two/one finger braking, road levels two I
believe.

I’d not be patronising about commuters personally, they generally rack up
large miles and in all weather, generally stuff has to work, and to be
fairly maintenance free.

Disk pads unless I’ve never had a problem getting hold of, I generally just
get from my local bike shop, I have brand spanking new sets and sets that
are old, remember on the MTB side disks have been around over 30 years by
now! Yes it’s new but only on the road side.

And realistically the only part I’ve not been able to get in a timely
fashion was a hanger, the derailleur was fine but the hanger I had to order
from eBay of all places!

Roger Merriman.

[Roger Merriman]

Crumby roads are fine, I ride all sorts of roads, which my Gravel bike
copes with fine.

Crashes on Races on cobbles is often due to folks fighting for the line, or
attempting to ride the gully etc, and either hitting a spectator or object,
and so on.

And since it’s a long race and lot is road, need to survive that, GCN and
others have tested road bikes/Gravel bikes/XC MTB and if the cobbles are
rough enough the MTB is faster by some margin which makes sense as it’s not
being kicked about.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Vaguely reminds me of Chris Broadman and others who have noted that MTB are
for a lot of folks overkill, and would arguably be better off with well
then CX bike or at least a less racy one, ie a pro Gravel bike.

Ie what folks think they want might be different from what they really
need, or possibly want.

Roger Merriman.

[Roger Merriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 18:12:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> By then the salesman will convince them that their terribly old
>> fashioned discs are dangerous, and that they need a bike with
>> brake-by-wire and built in anti-skid, or whatever the next marketing
>> "churn" is.
>
> Think different and compromise.
> Rim brakes on the rear, disc brakes on the front:
> "Converting Your Bike to a Hybrid Disc/Rim Brake Setup" (May 2017)
> <https://i0.wp.com/www.roadbikerider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/ColnagoC59leftside.WEB.jpg>
> <https://www.roadbikerider.com/converting-your-bike-to-a-hybrid-disc-rim-brake-setup-part-1-d2/>
> <https://www.roadbikerider.com/converting-your-bike-to-a-hybrid-disc-rim-brake-setup-part-2-d3/>
> a) disc brakes are better brakes, possessing greater
> stopping power with less force applied,
> b) rim brakes on carbon fiber wheels just don’t
> have the same modulation (rider-adjusted input) as
> discs and
> c) rim brakes on carbon fiber wheels are less reliable
> than discs, especially in wet conditions.
> Notice that the front disc brake is a cable brake, not hydraulic, to
> make the front and rear brakes feel similar.
>
>

I’d take most rim brakes over cable disks which are the worse of both
worlds!

No more powerful, fairly on/off as cable tends to be. Fair enough doesn’t
reduce in wet, like rims.

Need to be adjusted frequently and generally fiddled with. Only advantage
is they can be upgraded to hydraulics really.

But realistically if folks are happy with the kit, my commute bike is 17
years old now, the brakes are new to it, though are still 8 years old
themselves coming from the MTB!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I have a set of those hydraulic cable brakes on my Cannondale and it sort of the worst of both worlds. The brakes are either on or off with nothing in between. I can't get them to partially engage at all. So I can only ride it on the gravel where the wheels can slide when locked. I guess I will have to take it out again because I don't remember a problem as I left home for the first two miles. But maybe I had green lights the whole way. I did have a badly sprained back after that ride. I'm pretty sure that was from the brakes but Cannondale's are super stiff even with 32 knobbies on.

[John B.]

On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 18:33:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/7/2022 6:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/7/2022 4:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/7/2022 12:24 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/7/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 7/7/2022 7:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/6/2022 12:32 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 10:46:55 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think there's a lot of cutting edge bike tech that,
>>>>>>>>> for consumers,
>>>>>>>>> there's not much in it.
>>>>>>>>> I ride with some people that have done over 10,000
>>>>>>>>> miles in recent
>>>>>>>>> years. They have no need for
>>>>>>>>> instantaneous shifting (one of them shifts very rarely,
>>>>>>>>> and would
>>>>>>>>> probably do better with more
>>>>>>>>> shifting). They have never had a braking problem that
>>>>>>>>> I've heard of, so
>>>>>>>>> don't need discs. And so on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Yes.  And people who follow the Mennonite faith, there
>>>>>>>> is no reason for
>>>>>>>> them to learn how to drive a vehicle.  Or to know
>>>>>>>> anything about
>>>>>>>> electricity.  Even how to plug into an outlet.  But for
>>>>>>>> most people,
>>>>>>>> being able to drive is considered good.  And knowing how

>>>>>>>> to plug in a
>>>>>>>> refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is

>>>>>>>> beneficial.  And
>>>>>>>> how to cook food with an electric or gas stove.  And use
>>>>>>>> electric lights
>>>>>>>> at night.  Not kerosene burning lamps.  Mennonites seem
>>>>>>>> to prosper and
>>>>>>>> live just fine around my area.  So therefore, we should
>>>>>>>> ban and outlaw
>>>>>>>> and eliminate electricity.  People don't need it.
>>>>>>>> Mennonites live
>>>>>>>> without it.  So should you!!!!!!!!

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving
>>>>>>> cars, cook stoves
>>>>>>> etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic
>>>>>>> shifting,
>>>>>>> carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal
>>>>>>> riders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is
>>>>>>> supposed to be
>>>>>>> a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So: Got numbers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Disks and I’ve noted a few times, was something

It might be interesting, for those who argue that discs are better, to
note that ALL of the cheap - about $85 - $115 -bikes I saw in the
super market, as of yesterday, had disc brakes. One might speculate
whether cost of manufacturer might enter into the equation a tiny bit
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 00:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 18:12:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> By then the salesman will convince them that their terribly old
>>> fashioned discs are dangerous, and that they need a bike with
>>> brake-by-wire and built in anti-skid, or whatever the next marketing
>>> "churn" is.
>>
>> Think different and compromise.
>> Rim brakes on the rear, disc brakes on the front:
>> "Converting Your Bike to a Hybrid Disc/Rim Brake Setup" (May 2017)
>> <https://i0.wp.com/www.roadbikerider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/ColnagoC59leftside.WEB.jpg>
>> <https://www.roadbikerider.com/converting-your-bike-to-a-hybrid-disc-rim-brake-setup-part-1-d2/>
>> <https://www.roadbikerider.com/converting-your-bike-to-a-hybrid-disc-rim-brake-setup-part-2-d3/>
>> a) disc brakes are better brakes, possessing greater
>> stopping power with less force applied,

>> b) rim brakes on carbon fiber wheels just don?t

>> have the same modulation (rider-adjusted input) as
>> discs and
>> c) rim brakes on carbon fiber wheels are less reliable
>> than discs, especially in wet conditions.
>> Notice that the front disc brake is a cable brake, not hydraulic, to
>> make the front and rear brakes feel similar.

I think I have a marketing slogan for hybrid disk brakes.
"Optimized for all types of rides". Never mind that it's an oxymorn.
It should sell some conversion, upgrade and retrofit kits. If people
can ride on wheels with different number of spokes, different types of
brakes shouldn't be a problem.

>I’d take most rim brakes over cable disks which are the worse of both
>worlds!

I was afraid of that. I've helped a neighbor clean his disc brakes
because it was squealing. Alcohol and 400 grit sandpaper to remove
the glaze from the pads. No adjustments were needed. Other than
borrowing bicycles for a test ride, that's my sum total experience
with disc brakes. I was seriously tempted to try just one disc brake
and compare. However, I'm just now getting back into riding and don't
need a distraction. Ride first, then tinker. Thanks the advice.

>No more powerful, fairly on/off as cable tends to be. Fair enough doesn’t
>reduce in wet, like rims.

I don't ride in the rain, so that's not much of a benefit to me.

>Need to be adjusted frequently and generally fiddled with. Only advantage
>is they can be upgraded to hydraulics really.
>
>But realistically if folks are happy with the kit, my commute bike is 17
>years old now, the brakes are new to it, though are still 8 years old
>themselves coming from the MTB!

<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Gary-Fisher-Tassajara.JPG>
Not sure of the age. I think it's mid 1980's. I would look up the
date now, but I'm operating on borrowed time. The power just died
with a loud bang. Probably a transformer explosion. I'm running on
generator with 1 hr on, 1 hr off, mostly to keep the fridge going.

[Frank Krygowski]

>>>>>>>>> Yes.  And people who follow the Mennonite faith, there
>>>>>>>>> is no reason for
>>>>>>>>> them to learn how to drive a vehicle.  Or to know
>>>>>>>>> anything about
>>>>>>>>> electricity.  Even how to plug into an outlet.  But for
>>>>>>>>> most people,
>>>>>>>>> being able to drive is considered good.  And knowing how

>>>>>>>>> to plug in a
>>>>>>>>> refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is

>>>>>>>>> beneficial.  And
>>>>>>>>> how to cook food with an electric or gas stove.  And use
>>>>>>>>> electric lights
>>>>>>>>> at night.  Not kerosene burning lamps.  Mennonites seem
>>>>>>>>> to prosper and
>>>>>>>>> live just fine around my area.  So therefore, we should
>>>>>>>>> ban and outlaw
>>>>>>>>> and eliminate electricity.  People don't need it.
>>>>>>>>> Mennonites live
>>>>>>>>> without it.  So should you!!!!!!!!

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving
>>>>>>>> cars, cook stoves
>>>>>>>> etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic
>>>>>>>> shifting,
>>>>>>>> carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal
>>>>>>>> riders.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is
>>>>>>>> supposed to be
>>>>>>>> a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So: Got numbers?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Disks and I’ve noted a few times, was something

I wonder if cost of installation is the real difference. When hundreds
of bikes need to be assembled, that could influence design choices.

I'm wondering how the various flavors of brakes rank for installation
ease - assuming a low-end bike, so "good enough to go out the door."

My guess: Dual pivots might be easiest. Direct pull cantilevers
(V-brakes) somewhere in the middle. Classic cantilevers definitely the
most difficult.

I'd expect discs would be toward the easy end, depending on mounting
details. Probably something like this: With the wheel in place, slide
the disc caliper over the disc, run mounting bolts down just finger
tight, apply the brake with the brake lever, tighten the bolts and call
it done. If you want to be extra diligent, spin the wheel to make sure
it's not scraping really badly.

Comments?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I agree that the disc brake itself won't likely interfere with panniers,
but there have been some really kludgy solutions for routing the bottom
end of the pannier racks around discs.

My touring bike came with classic L-shaped cantis. I switched to low
profile cantis because of problems with pannier interference.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 22:30:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski

>>>>>>>>>> Yes.  And people who follow the Mennonite faith, there
>>>>>>>>>> is no reason for
>>>>>>>>>> them to learn how to drive a vehicle.  Or to know
>>>>>>>>>> anything about
>>>>>>>>>> electricity.  Even how to plug into an outlet.  But for
>>>>>>>>>> most people,
>>>>>>>>>> being able to drive is considered good.  And knowing how

>>>>>>>>>> to plug in a
>>>>>>>>>> refrigerator or fan or clock radio into the outlet is

>>>>>>>>>> beneficial.  And
>>>>>>>>>> how to cook food with an electric or gas stove.  And use
>>>>>>>>>> electric lights
>>>>>>>>>> at night.  Not kerosene burning lamps.  Mennonites seem
>>>>>>>>>> to prosper and
>>>>>>>>>> live just fine around my area.  So therefore, we should
>>>>>>>>>> ban and outlaw
>>>>>>>>>> and eliminate electricity.  People don't need it.
>>>>>>>>>> Mennonites live
>>>>>>>>>> without it.  So should you!!!!!!!!

>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can easily list advantages for electricity, driving
>>>>>>>>> cars, cook stoves
>>>>>>>>> etc. that greatly outweigh any disadvantages.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I doubt you can do that for (say) disc brakes, electronic
>>>>>>>>> shifting,
>>>>>>>>> carbon fiber frames, aero rims etc. as applied to normal
>>>>>>>>> riders.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But hey, feel free to try, using actual numbers. This is
>>>>>>>>> supposed to be
>>>>>>>>> a bicycle _technical_ discussion group, after all!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So: Got numbers?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Disks and I’ve noted a few times, was something

I wouldn't think it was assembly, per se, as from what I see the bike
is sold in a box and the retail outlet assembles it, but it might be a
matter of manufacture with a single "anchor" point requiring little or
no alignment and two, or four, which could requiring a bit of
"fiddling".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

As I've said before, I've seen someone go over the bars by clamping down
too hard on unfamiliar dual pivot caliper brakes. And many "comfort
bikes" came with limiting springs added to the front brake to prevent
that problem. For road work, I think a person should have to squeeze
fairly hard to brake fairly hard. (Extreme mountain biking may be
different, although back in the day I did MTB descents that required
lowering the saddle, and used cantis with no problems.)

> I’d not be patronising about commuters personally, they generally rack up
> large miles and in all weather, generally stuff has to work, and to be
> fairly maintenance free.

Yes, and I still miss Jay Beattie, who was doubtlessly our most
committed commuter.

In my neck of the woods, there are very few commuters. That's largely
because U.S. commuting distances tend to be outside of typical bike
range. I suspect most bike commuters here are very low on the economic
ladder and using bike shaped objects.

BTW, local bike commuting is rare enough that I had not one, but two
major articles about my biking to work in the local paper. Each nearly
full page, with photos. Five minutes (total) of fame!

> Disk pads unless I’ve never had a problem getting hold of, I generally just

> get from my local bike shop...

I'm thinking ahead. The current situation has dozens of incompatible
styles. Some will certainly go out of style. I suppose some small shops
will sell them on Ebay, but to me that sounds like a bad supply chain
for an essential part. That's why I advise carrying spares.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/7/2022 8:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, July 7, 2022 at 5:20:45 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Notice that the front disc brake is a cable brake, not hydraulic, to
>>> make the front and rear brakes feel similar.
>>>
>>>
>> I’d take most rim brakes over cable disks which are the worse of both
>> worlds!
>>
>> No more powerful, fairly on/off as cable tends to be. Fair enough doesn’t

>> reduce in wet, like rims....

>
> I have a set of those hydraulic cable brakes on my Cannondale and it sort of the worst of both worlds. The brakes are either on or off with nothing in between. I can't get them to partially engage at all.

I've wondered about the concept of brake modulation. ISTM that the
definition must be braking force varying continuously with lever force;
and ISTM that failures in modulation must be due to friction (and its
subset, static friction or stiction) in the mechanism.

Teflon, IIRC, has very low stiction. I'd think teflon-lined cables would
not be a significant source of that problem, nor would properly
lubricated pivots or other mechanisms if properly designed.

I recognize that hydraulic actuation does away with most of the problem,
but I guess I'm asking for details on the sources of modulation problems
in mechanical brakes.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

4 wheel drive is very dependent on where you live. From a logical point of view. I realize there is a huge amount of status aspect to it. As in why do soccer moms and office workers in Texas need 4 wheel drive? It rarely, rarely snows down there. Unless you actually drive off pavement, 4 wheel drive is a 100% status symbol in Texas. But in Madison, Andy's town, 4 wheel drive is probably the most common feature. In Iowa, it is essential about 5 days a year due to snow. Is 5/365 a worthwhile ratio? I'm not sure where in Ohio you are Frank. But up north along the lake, they might get enough snow to make 4 wheel drive almost needed. Down south in Cincinnati, probably not. Cleveland in the middle?