Suntour experts: Replacement for Accushift cable?
bcdrums
Suntour 6sp indexed shifting. I took the cable down to the LBS, they
didn't have one.
The original cable has a disc end measuring 5mm in diameter, smaller
than the current disc cable ends. Anyone know where I can get a
replacement?
The LBS gave me an old Shimano cable from a three-speed shifter to try.
Its disc end was a bit smaller but it looked like it would work, but it
was just a couple of inches too short.
Yikes!
BC
obsolete
ru4linux2
With all due respect here, you're obviously not 'handy'.
Just find a friend who is and this will be a slam dunk.
Lewis.
*****
Chalo
Universal double-ended shift cables (usually individually packaged
rather than bulk boxed) have one axial cylinder end and one transverse
cylinder (lollipop) end. Get one of those and cut off the end you
don't need.
Chalo
bcdrums
I forgot about those. I just found one in the parts box, an Ejac
Universal shift cable from France. I quickly popped it into the lever,
and the diameter is right, but the depth is wrong and it fell through
the hole. The Ejac is only 3mm tall vs. the Suntour which is 6mm. tall.
Will check it again in the morning to see if there is a workaround.
Thanks.
BC
bcdrums
I did not know that!
>
> Just find a friend who is and this will be a slam dunk.
Well, that's why I came here, to my friends on RBT.
Pretend for a moment that you are my friend. What would you do? The shop
suggested that I could grind down the head of a modern cable until it
fit. I also thought that perhaps I could enlarge the hole in the shifter
and use modern cables.
But- and I am surprised you did not deduce this as quickly as you
discovered my lack of hand- I am lazy, too. I was looking for the
easiest solution, rather than the cleverest one.
BC
shiftless
Hachiroku ハチロク
LOL! My experience lends that the 'easiest' solution is oftem the most
expensive, and the most time-consuming!
AMuzi
For an X=Press shifter the original wires aren't around now.
The Shimano Twist Grip 3 wire is a good substitute. Try a
'universal fit' cable, those are longish (yet maybe not
enough for a tall frame size or with hi-rise bars). You may
be able to use a regular derailleur gear wire if you
scrunch the plate inside the shifter slightly.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
someone
> I forgot about those. I just found one in the parts box, an Ejac
> Universal shift cable from France. I quickly popped it into the lever,
> and the diameter is right, but the depth is wrong and it fell through
> the hole. The Ejac is only 3mm tall vs. the Suntour which is 6mm. tall.
So 5mm DIA and 6mm tall, definitely a barrel, not a disc. Use the
barrel off the old cable and thread it onto the new, peen the end of
the cable and soft solder it. In fact you will probably get away with
soldering without peening the cable end. If you cant/wont solder, get
a tack or glazing sprag and wedge the cable in the barrel.
bcdrums
No, really, it is a transverse cylinder (lollipop/disc).
BC
ru4linux2
Great response, thanks.
I have a small lathe at the house and I sometimes make 'special'
cables by machining a piece of brass rod to the appropriate size and
soldering it onto the wire.
Also, I'm old, retired and have time to dick around with stuff like
this. :-)
Lewis.
*****
jim beam
don't even solder it - make it reusable. besides, if you solder with a
gas flame, you run the risk of overheating the cable and weakening it.
bcdrums
Lewis, you are way out of my league on the handy scale! Fortunately, the
universal cable suggested by Chalo and AMuzi does the trick, and I had
one in the old parts box.
Thanks to all who responded.
BC
shifting
AMuzi
It's tedious but certainly doable.
Consider counterboring the back side of the head and flaring
the wire behind the head before soldering if you're
committing to the project anyway.
someone
Bullshit. Use of approptriate sized flame contains the heat to the
barrel. Working on the barrel not on the working cable. A spirit
lamp with a mouth blowpipe is suitable for this. Spirit burns cold,
risk of overheating for a clot is negligible. If the barrel and cable
end is pre-tinned then the shine shows adequate temperature has been
reached. Flux will generally brown or smoke when the correct
temperature is reached.
someone
>
> I have a small lathe at the house and I sometimes make 'special'
> cables by machining a piece of brass rod to the appropriate size and
> soldering it onto the wire.
A hacksaw, a vice, a file and a drilling machine will do this work.
Can't see the use for a lathe. Excessive waste of time.
jim beam
eh?
> risk of overheating for a clot is negligible. If the barrel and cable
> end is pre-tinned then the shine shows adequate temperature has been
> reached. Flux will generally brown or smoke when the correct
> temperature is reached.
>
trev, go get some help. please?
Tom Sherman °_°
> On 12 Sep, 12:38, ru4linux2 <limey...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a small lathe at the house and I sometimes make 'special'
>> cables by machining a piece of brass rod to the appropriate size and
>> soldering it onto the wire.
>
^^^^
Dude, too much information about your personal life.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
Chalo
>
> someone wrote:
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >>
> >> ru4linux2 wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have a small lathe at the house and I sometimes make 'special'
> >>> cables by machining a piece of brass rod to the appropriate size and
> >>> soldering it onto the wire.
> >>
> >> don't even solder it - make it reusable. besides, if you solder with a
> >> gas flame, you run the risk of overheating the cable and weakening it.
> >
> > Bullshit. Use of approptriate sized flame contains the heat to the
> > barrel. Working on the barrel not on the working cable. A spirit
> > lamp with a mouth blowpipe is suitable for this. Spirit burns cold,
>
> eh?
He means "methylated spirit", which is limey for denatured alcohol.
It does have a low-temperature flame, as flames go. You'd have to be
pretty insensitive and/or inept to anneal steel while trying to tin-
solder over an alcohol lamp. For one thing, the solder would be
running like water long before that point, and for another, the flux
would have caught fire and burned out before the steel overheated.
> > risk of overheating for a clot is negligible. If the barrel and cable
> > end is pre-tinned then the shine shows adequate temperature has been
> > reached. Flux will generally brown or smoke when the correct
> > temperature is reached.
>
> trev, go get some help. please?
His advice is valid for structural soft soldering. A regular electric
soldering gun or even a soldering iron of >30W would be a lot easier,
but it can also be done over an alcohol lamp or bunsen burner like
Trevor describes.
I wouldn't bother with soldering up a bike shift cable that I could
buy somewhere, but I have soldered custom double-ended cables, for
instance to replace a broken motorcycle choke knob with a
thumbshifter.
I have even used .999 fine silver for cable end buttons, because I had
small scraps of the easily worked material.
Chalo
someone
5mm diameter and 6mm tall is a barrel. Or are the dimensions
different?
someone
and jb is that clot.
someone
wrote:
yank
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>>
>> someone wrote:
>>>
>>> jim beam�wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ru4linux2 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a small lathe at the house and I sometimes make 'special'
>>>>> cables by machining a piece of brass rod to the appropriate size and
>>>>> soldering it onto the wire.
>>>>
>>>> don't even solder it - make it reusable. besides, if you solder with a
>>>> gas flame, you run the risk of overheating the cable and weakening it.
>>>
>>> Bullshit. �Use of approptriate sized flame contains the heat to the
>>> barrel. �Working on the barrel not on the working cable. �A spirit
>>> lamp with a mouth blowpipe is suitable for this. �Spirit burns cold,
>>
>> eh?
>
> He means "methylated spirit", which is limey for denatured alcohol.
> It does have a low-temperature flame, as flames go. You'd have to be
> pretty insensitive and/or inept to anneal steel while trying to tin-
> solder over an alcohol lamp.
martensitic steels soften long before they anneal chalo. as a materials
expert, you already knew that, but were just testing, right?
> For one thing, the solder would be
> running like water long before that point, and for another, the flux
> would have caught fire and burned out before the steel overheated.
it's not the big thick bit with the solder on it that's the problem,
it's the skinny bit sticking out of it that's getting the flame spill.
>
>>> risk of overheating for a clot is negligible. �If the barrel and cable
>>> end is pre-tinned then the shine shows adequate temperature has been
>>> reached. �Flux will generally brown or smoke when the correct
>>> temperature is reached.
>>
>> trev, go get some help. �please?
>
> His advice is valid for structural soft soldering. A regular electric
> soldering gun or even a soldering iron of>30W would be a lot easier,
> but it can also be done over an alcohol lamp or bunsen burner like
> Trevor describes.
electric, yes. flame, ridiculous.
>
> I wouldn't bother with soldering up a bike shift cable that I could
> buy somewhere, but I have soldered custom double-ended cables, for
> instance to replace a broken motorcycle choke knob with a
> thumbshifter.
applause?
>
> I have even used .999 fine silver for cable end buttons, because I had
> small scraps of the easily worked material.
of course you had.
someone
> it's not the big thick bit with the solder on it that's the problem,
> it's the skinny bit sticking out of it that's getting the flame spill.
Why blow so hard. Using a spirit burner with blowpipe means that the
flame can be located and sized precisely. The job is instant without
waste.
> electric, yes. flame, ridiculous.
You are ridiculous.
So what you're saying is you've never encountered a small burner with
blowpipe for small work.
bcdrums
Those dimensions are correct. And golly, it does look like a little
barrel. But the cable enters this little barrel on the round cylindrical
side, rather than one of the two flat ends. Does that not make it, in
shifter cable terms, a disc?
If the cable enters the flat end, then it's a barrel, yes? Or is it a
barrel, regardless of where the cable enters?
By the way, I replaced it with a cable with a disc end, and it shifts.
BC
appearing without counsel
someone
It's called a barrel in this configuration, although you used
'lollipop' which is apt for the shorter barrels, I like it. When the
cable and barrel is co-axial it is usually called a nipple, the cable
end for drop handlebar brake levers is a pear nipple.
>
> By the way, I replaced it with a cable with a disc end, and it shifts.
As long as it stays good then no worries. Remember not to lick that
lollipop.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > He means "methylated spirit", which is limey for denatured alcohol.
> > It does have a low-temperature flame, as flames go. You'd have to be
> > pretty insensitive and/or inept to anneal steel while trying to tin-
> > solder over an alcohol lamp.
>
> martensitic steels soften long before they anneal chalo. as a materials
> expert, you already knew that, but were just testing, right?
Bike cables wouldn't operate close to their yield stress even if they
were dead soft, professor. Some of us have silver brazed them many
times without later problems.
You don't know a thing about actually making stuff, do you? You read
about materials and imagine what you will, but you don't try it and
see what happens. You should consider giving it a go sometime. If you
survive the first stage of that process, I'll consider sending over a
19 year old hippie who has been present in my shop while I'm working,
to teach you a few things.
Chalo
bcdrums
> On 13 Sep, 01:21, bcdrums <bcdr...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> someone wrote:
>
>>> 5mm diameter and 6mm tall is a barrel. Or are the dimensions
>>> different?
>> Those dimensions are correct. And golly, it does look like a little
>> barrel. But the cable enters this little barrel on the round cylindrical
>> side, rather than one of the two flat ends. Does that not make it, in
>> shifter cable terms, a disc?
>>
>> If the cable enters the flat end, then it's a barrel, yes? Or is it a
>> barrel, regardless of where the cable enters?
>
> It's called a barrel in this configuration, although you used
> 'lollipop' which is apt for the shorter barrels, I like it.
Credit for lollipop goes to Chalo.
When the
> cable and barrel is co-axial it is usually called a nipple, the cable
> end for drop handlebar brake levers is a pear nipple.
>
>> By the way, I replaced it with a cable with a disc end, and it shifts.
>
> As long as it stays good then no worries. Remember not to lick that
> lollipop.
Nipples, barrels, lollipops and pears...isn't bicycling great?
BC
jim beam
for an unfunny circus clown, you're not very comical when it comes to
materials. as you evidently don't know, martensitic steels soften with
heat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering
150°C-260°C is not exactly a high temperature. [i'll let /you/ bullshit
about the temperatures you think your cables reach when you're
soldering.] softer means lower yield. lower yield means lower fatigue
strength. with principles this basic, even a retarded circus clown
should be able to get a clue.
Brian Huntley
Wasn't that a Leslie Gore song?
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >>
> >> Chalo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> He means "methylated spirit", which is limey for denatured alcohol.
> >>> It does have a low-temperature flame, as flames go. You'd have to be
> >>> pretty insensitive and/or inept to anneal steel while trying to tin-
> >>> solder over an alcohol lamp.
> >>
> >> martensitic steels soften long before they anneal chalo. as a materials
> >> expert, you already knew that, but were just testing, right?
> >
> > Bike cables wouldn't operate close to their yield stress even if they
> > were dead soft, professor. Some of us have silver brazed them many
> > times without later problems.
>
> materials. as you evidently don't know, martensitic steels soften with
> heat.
We've been through this before. 300-series stainless steels like
those used in bike cables, spokes, and fasteners are AUSTENITIC
steels. They don't get significantly weaker at the roughly 500 degree
temps used to tin-solder stuff. Zinc plated normal steel cables are
easier to solder, but they are not dead soft after soldering either.
And control cables are under such low stress that it doesn't matter,
which is why silver brazing them works too. You gonna dispute that?
'Cause those of use who actually have any brazed cables will know with
empirical certainty that you're full of crap.
Chalo
Frank Krygowski
> ...you evidently don't know, martensitic steels soften with
> heat.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering
> 150°C-260°C is not exactly a high temperature. [i'll let /you/ bullshit
> about the temperatures you think your cables reach when you're
> soldering.] softer means lower yield. lower yield means lower fatigue
> strength.
Just out of curiosity, jim beam, how do you suppose the manufacturers
get those cable fittings fastened onto the OEM cables? Do you think
they use Super Glue?
Hint: Die casting alloys melt at temperatures far higher than your
"260°C".
I agree with the statement someone made earlier. You seem to know
very little about how things are actually made.
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>>
>> Chalo wrote:
>>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Chalo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> He means "methylated spirit", which is limey for denatured alcohol.
>>>>> It does have a low-temperature flame, as flames go. You'd have to be
>>>>> pretty insensitive and/or inept to anneal steel while trying to tin-
>>>>> solder over an alcohol lamp.
>>>>
>>>> martensitic steels soften long before they anneal chalo. as a materials
>>>> expert, you already knew that, but were just testing, right?
>>>
>>> Bike cables wouldn't operate close to their yield stress even if they
>>> were dead soft, professor. �Some of us have silver brazed them many
>>> times without later problems.
>>
>> for an unfunny circus clown, you're not very comical when it comes to
>> materials. �as you evidently don't know, martensitic steels soften with
>> heat.
>
> We've been through this before. 300-series stainless steels like
> those used in bike cables, spokes, and fasteners are AUSTENITIC
> steels.
1. you don't even know what austenitic is!
2. it transforms to martensitic on deformation as it's drawn!
it's amazing how someone who has "been through this before" is unable to
learn or retain. but perhaps not if you're an idiot circus clown.
> They don't get significantly weaker at the roughly 500 degree
> temps used to tin-solder stuff.
'cos you've tested and are going to publish your results!
> Zinc plated normal steel cables are
> easier to solder, but they are not dead soft after soldering either.
ah, there's the fat fuck idiot circus clown putting false words in my
mouth - "dead soft". i never said that, nor implied it. get your act
together circus clown.
>
> And control cables are under such low stress that it doesn't matter,
> which is why silver brazing them works too. You gonna dispute that?
control cables are not as critical and don't have much load. but
bullshitting about cables in general, as you are doing, leaves the door
open for brake cables which are critical and do have load. being stupid
about this might make for fun in the circus ring chalo, but not as a
principle of public safety.
> 'Cause those of use who actually have any brazed cables will know with
> empirical certainty that you're full of crap.
can you braze cable? yes. can you braze it safely? no.
next time you're in an elevator big guy, just ask your dumb-ass self why
none of the cables are brazed. next time you're in a plane, ask your
dumb-ass self why none of the cables are brazed. next time you operate
a crane, ask your dumb-ass self why none of the cable are brazed. the
answer? some people know more than the idiot circus clown.
jim beam
how hot do you think the cable gets krygowski? you know, when the metal
is injected into the metal die which conducts the heat away for
solidification and all...
and while your expert brain is working on that one, try figuring out why
race cars have wide tires too.
fucking idiot.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > And control cables are under such low stress that it doesn't matter,
> > which is why silver brazing them works too. You gonna dispute that?
>
> control cables are not as critical and don't have much load.
Brake cables are control cables, at least for the purposes of what I
was saying.
Chalo
Frank Krygowski
> On 09/13/2009 09:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 13, 9:20 am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> ...you evidently don't know, martensitic steels soften with
> >> heat.
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering
> >> 150 C-260 C is not exactly a high temperature. [i'll let /you/ bullshit
> >> about the temperatures you think your cables reach when you're
> >> soldering.] softer means lower yield. lower yield means lower fatigue
> >> strength.
>
> > Just out of curiosity, jim beam, how do you suppose the manufacturers
> > get those cable fittings fastened onto the OEM cables? Do you think
> > they use Super Glue?
>
> > Hint: Die casting alloys melt at temperatures far higher than your
> > "260 C".
>
> > I agree with the statement someone made earlier. You seem to know
> > very little about how things are actually made.
>
> how hot do you think the cable gets krygowski? you know, when the metal
> is injected into the metal die which conducts the heat away for
> solidification and all...
Hmm. You mean a piece of cable inside a die, whose mass and heat
capacity are much less than the mass and heat capacity of the molten
metal which is injected all around it? When that molten metal is
solidified by the walls of the die that are in contact with the outer
surface of the cast cable end? While the cable end sits in the
hottest part, the dead center?
I think it gets really close to the temperature of the molten metal,
which is probably over 400 degrees Celsius. You seem to think it
doesn't get up to even 150 C, but that's pretty silly.
You need to drop your fantasies and connect with real life. Try
making a cable end, like many of us have successfully done. I don't
want to overestimate your competence, but I bet even you could do it
without causing the cable to fail by fatigue.
> and while your expert brain is working on that one, try figuring out why
> race cars have wide tires too.
I have no idea why you append that when you respond to my posts.
Another beamian fantasy, I guess.
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
> On Sep 13, 12:17�pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 09/13/2009 09:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 13, 9:20 am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> �wrote:
>>>> ...you evidently don't know, martensitic steels soften with
>>>> heat.
>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering
>>>> 150 C-260 C is not exactly a high temperature. [i'll let /you/ bullshit
>>>> about the temperatures you think your cables reach when you're
>>>> soldering.] softer means lower yield. lower yield means lower fatigue
>>>> strength.
>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, jim beam, how do you suppose the manufacturers
>>> get those cable fittings fastened onto the OEM cables? �Do you think
>>> they use Super Glue?
>>
>>> Hint: �Die casting alloys melt at temperatures far higher than your
>>> "260 C".
>>
>>> I agree with the statement someone made earlier. �You seem to know
>>> very little about how things are actually made.
>>
>> how hot do you think the cable gets krygowski? �you know, when the metal
>> is injected into the metal die which conducts the heat away for
>> solidification and all...
>
> Hmm. You mean a piece of cable inside a die, whose mass and heat
> capacity are much less than the mass and heat capacity of the molten
> metal which is injected all around it?
seems you don't know much about die casting krygowski. oh, but you've
proven that already.
> When that molten metal is
> solidified by the walls of the die that are in contact with the outer
> surface of the cast cable end? While the cable end sits in the
> hottest part, the dead center?
what is the heat capacity krygowski? what id the solidus temperature
krygowski? what is the chill rate krygowski? why are you such an
ignorant posing as an engineering professor krygowski?
>
> I think it gets really close to the temperature of the molten metal,
> which is probably over 400 degrees Celsius. You seem to think it
> doesn't get up to even 150 C, but that's pretty silly.
don't put false words in my mouth krygowski.
>
> You need to drop your fantasies and connect with real life. Try
> making a cable end, like many of us have successfully done. I don't
> want to overestimate your competence, but I bet even you could do it
> without causing the cable to fail by fatigue.
go try do elevator, aerospace or lifting gear work krygowski. you're an
"engineering professor" aren't you? i can't wait to see the boot prints
on your dumb ass.
>
>> and while your expert brain is working on that one, try figuring out why
>> race cars have wide tires too.
>
> I have no idea why you append that when you respond to my posts.
> Another beamian fantasy, I guess.
er, it's just one of your many fuck-ups you fraud. you don't know shit
about real basic stuff like friction. but you show up and collect
"engineering professor". that's fraud. not to mention the social
impact of you fucking up so many people's careers.
jim beam
he said, conveniently snipping all the other facts that show you as an
ignorant circus clown.
Frank Krygowski
> On 09/13/2009 11:51 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 13, 12:17 pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>
>
> >> is injected into the metal die which conducts the heat away for
> >> solidification and all...
>
> > Hmm. You mean a piece of cable inside a die, whose mass and heat
> > capacity are much less than the mass and heat capacity of the molten
> > metal which is injected all around it?
>
> seems you don't know much about die casting krygowski. oh, but you've
> proven that already.
How odd! Another fact-free insult from jim beam!
>
> > When that molten metal is
> > solidified by the walls of the die that are in contact with the outer
> > surface of the cast cable end? While the cable end sits in the
> > hottest part, the dead center?
>
> what is the heat capacity krygowski? what id the solidus temperature
> krygowski? what is the chill rate krygowski? why are you such an
> ignorant posing as an engineering professor krygowski?
Another familiar "beam" tactic: When backed into a corner, shoot out
a barrage of barely related questions to imply that you may possibly
know something your opponent does not. But it's transparent, jim.
You claimed 150C can soften steel, which is true in the sense that
it's detectable under certain conditions. If you want to stand by the
false idea that the degree of softening (or weakening) is critical for
a cable, why not show us your numbers for the cable's temperature when
the factory button is cast into place?
If you want to double check the casting temperature, do so, and tell
us what you find. But for zinc alloys, it's usually significantly
above 450C.
> > I think it gets really close to the temperature of the molten metal,
> > which is probably over 400 degrees Celsius. You seem to think it
> > doesn't get up to even 150 C, but that's pretty silly.
>
> don't put false words in my mouth krygowski.
Were you not talking about cables softening at 150C? If not, why were
you quoting that temperature? What was that about?
> > You need to drop your fantasies and connect with real life. Try
> > making a cable end, like many of us have successfully done. I don't
> > want to overestimate your competence, but I bet even you could do it
> > without causing the cable to fail by fatigue.
>
> go try do elevator, aerospace or lifting gear work krygowski.
"Go try do"?
jim, this is a bicycle discussion group. The elevator discussion
group is entirely different - although I doubt you'd be welcome there
either.
Anyway, if take your "unsubstantiated insult" time and devote it to
fabricating skills, you can probably learn to put ends on cables. My
first was a motorcycle clutch cable in 1973. It worked at _least_
until I donated the bike to a friend in about 1990, and it's probably
still doing fine. I've also done a tandem shift cable and a single
bike brake cable when standard ones wouldn't do. Never a failure.
Despite your fearmongering, it's just not that hard.
> >> and while your expert brain is working on that one, try figuring out why
> >> race cars have wide tires too.
>
> > I have no idea why you append that when you respond to my posts.
> > Another beamian fantasy, I guess.
>
> er, it's just one of your many fuck-ups you fraud.
Oh bullshit. I've understood that since I was a 15-year-old
interested in motor racing. Quit fantasizing. Get out a cable and a
torch and learn how to do something practical.
(You do know how to solder, don't you? Or is "solidus" just a word
you learned from a book?)
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
> On Sep 13, 3:32�pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 09/13/2009 11:51 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 13, 12:17 pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> �wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>> how hot do you think the cable gets krygowski? you know, when the metal
>>>> is injected into the metal die which conducts the heat away for
>>>> solidification and all...
>>
>>> Hmm. �You mean a piece of cable inside a die, whose mass and heat
>>> capacity are much less than the mass and heat capacity of the molten
>>> metal which is injected all around it?
>>
>> seems you don't know much about die casting krygowski. �oh, but you've
>> proven that already.
>
> How odd! Another fact-free insult from jim beam!
even "fucking idiot" isn't an insult for you krygowski, it's a statement
of fact. as is your not knowing the difference between casting, die
casting, thixoforming and forging.
>
>>
>>> When that molten metal is
>>> solidified by the walls of the die that are in contact with the outer
>>> surface of the cast cable end? �While the cable end sits in the
>>> hottest part, the dead center?
>>
>> what is the heat capacity krygowski? �what id the solidus temperature
>> krygowski? �what is the chill rate krygowski? �why are you such an
>> ignorant posing as an engineering professor krygowski?
>
> Another familiar "beam" tactic: When backed into a corner, shoot out
> a barrage of barely related questions to imply that you may possibly
> know something your opponent does not. But it's transparent, jim.
like you lack of knowledge on simple engineering principles is
"transparent" krygowski?
>
> You claimed 150C can soften steel, which is true in the sense that
> it's detectable under certain conditions. If you want to stand by the
> false idea that the degree of softening (or weakening) is critical for
> a cable, why not show us your numbers for the cable's temperature when
> the factory button is cast into place?
you're [pathetically] avoiding the question krygowski - what temperature
does the cable reach?
>
> If you want to double check the casting temperature, do so, and tell
> us what you find. But for zinc alloys, it's usually significantly
> above 450C.
see above. fucking idiot.
>
>>> I think it gets really close to the temperature of the molten metal,
>>> which is probably over 400 degrees Celsius. �You seem to think it
>>> doesn't get up to even 150 C, but that's pretty silly.
>>
>> don't put false words in my mouth krygowski.
>
> Were you not talking about cables softening at 150C? If not, why were
> you quoting that temperature? What was that about?
what temperature does the cable reach krygowski? fucking idiot.
>
>>> You need to drop your fantasies and connect with real life. �Try
>>> making a cable end, like many of us have successfully done. �I don't
>>> want to overestimate your competence, but I bet even you could do it
>>> without causing the cable to fail by fatigue.
>>
>> go try do elevator, aerospace or lifting gear work krygowski. �
>
> "Go try do"?
>
> jim, this is a bicycle discussion group. The elevator discussion
> group is entirely different - although I doubt you'd be welcome there
> either.
fucking idiot.
>
> Anyway, if take your "unsubstantiated insult" time and devote it to
> fabricating skills, you can probably learn to put ends on cables. My
> first was a motorcycle clutch cable in 1973. It worked at _least_
> until I donated the bike to a friend in about 1990, and it's probably
> still doing fine. I've also done a tandem shift cable and a single
> bike brake cable when standard ones wouldn't do. Never a failure.
> Despite your fearmongering, it's just not that hard.
so why is it NEVER used in production or any application with
certification krygowski? is it possible that you don't know something
here??? [rhetorical]
>
>>>> and while your expert brain is working on that one, try figuring out why
>>>> race cars have wide tires too.
>>
>>> I have no idea why you append that when you respond to my posts.
>>> Another beamian fantasy, I guess.
>>
>> er, it's just one of your many fuck-ups you fraud. �
>
> Oh bullshit. I've understood that since I was a 15-year-old
> interested in motor racing.
so state what you think you know!!! all your previous blatherings on
the topic of friction have been utter bullshit.
> Quit fantasizing. Get out a cable and a
> torch and learn how to do something practical.
unlike you krygowski, i have used good old-fashioned testing on things
like this. shamefully for you, considering the fact that you have
access to both libraries and the equipment, you have not. you're a
fucking disgrace..
>
> (You do know how to solder, don't you? Or is "solidus" just a word
> you learned from a book?)
word you learned from a book"??? something you've NOT done you mean???
"solidus" you fucking idiot, is the word used when describing one
component of a phase transition. you know, what you're taking about
inflicting on your cable end. just like the word for posing as an
engineering professor when you don't know what the fuck you're talking
about is "fraud". resign krygowski.
jim beam
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> considered Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:40:20 -0700
> the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 09/13/2009 07:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> Anyway, if take your "unsubstantiated insult" time and devote it to
>>> fabricating skills, you can probably learn to put ends on cables. My
>>> first was a motorcycle clutch cable in 1973. It worked at _least_
>>> until I donated the bike to a friend in about 1990, and it's probably
>>> still doing fine. I've also done a tandem shift cable and a single
>>> bike brake cable when standard ones wouldn't do. Never a failure.
>>> Despite your fearmongering, it's just not that hard.
>>
>> so why is it NEVER used in production or any application with
>> certification krygowski? is it possible that you don't know something
>> here??? [rhetorical]
>>
> I've seen (and checked) flight control cables with soldered ends on
> certified aircraft.
one common method of wire rope termination is to splice a lead pig into
it. i think that's what you're looking at - it's not soldering.
> I've also soldered cable ends myself for cable operated motorcycle
> front brakes.
that doesn't make it commercially accepted practice, it simply means
you've bodged it.
>
> Is your experience of cables similar to your experience of 2 stroke
> diesels?
perhaps you should read this?
Frank Krygowski
> .. your not knowing the difference between casting, die
> casting, thixoforming and forging.
More "jim beam" fantasy, I'm afraid. My, you do get imaginative when
you know you've been shown to be wrong, don't you?
> > [FK:]You claimed 150C can soften steel, which is true in the sense that
> > it's detectable under certain conditions. If you want to stand by the
> > false idea that the degree of softening (or weakening) is critical for
> > a cable, why not show us your numbers for the cable's temperature when
> you're [pathetically] avoiding the question krygowski - what temperature
> does the cable reach?
jim, I've already stated the only important estimate for this
discussion. Here it is again: If the casting temperature is above
400C (as it is for almost all zinc die casting alloys) then the cable
in the neighborhood of the end button is going to get _way_ above the
150C you claimed as the onset of softening. It will be damned close
to 400C.
You apparently disagree. So what temperature do _you_ think it will
reach?
Disclaimer: It's been quite a few years since I did a serious
calculation on non-steady state heat transfer like this - not that
precise calculations are needed here. OTOH, I doubt you've ever done
one. But please do give us your best guess! Are you going to
seriously say the temperature's less than 150C?
> > [FK:] Anyway, if take your "unsubstantiated insult" time and devote it to
> > fabricating skills, you can probably learn to put ends on cables. My
> > first was a motorcycle clutch cable in 1973. It worked at _least_
> > until I donated the bike to a friend in about 1990, and it's probably
> > still doing fine. I've also done a tandem shift cable and a single
> > bike brake cable when standard ones wouldn't do. Never a failure.
> > Despite your fearmongering, it's just not that hard.
>
> so why is it NEVER used in production or any application with
> certification krygowski?
You mean like elevators? For the same reason elevators aren't made of
carbon fiber, jim. For the same reason that their cable pulleys don't
have 18 spokes and aero rims. For the same reason that their controls
aren't made by Shimano. Because elevators are not bicycles.
But they do have certain things in common. Both frequently feature
cast components _and_ welds in tension, both of which successfully
resist fatigue. It may astound some ex-metallurgists, but there it is!
;-)
> > Quit fantasizing. Get out a cable and a
> > torch and learn how to do something practical.
>
> unlike you krygowski, i have used good old-fashioned testing on things
> like this.
:-) Like fabricating your own cable end and riding with it? No, of
course not. Your prissy plastic playthings must have all their
components taken directly out of their factory-sealed plastic bags.
And you'd never ride anything so unfashionable as to require a custom
cable.
> > (You do know how to solder, don't you? Or is "solidus" just a word
> > you learned from a book?)
>
> word you learned from a book"??? something you've NOT done you mean???
> "solidus" you fucking idiot, is the word used when describing one
> component of a phase transition.
I know exactly, precisely what solidus means. And unlike you, I've
made practical use of that knowledge.
Go ride your plastic toy. You're wasting our time.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
> On 09/13/2009 08:58 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>
> > jim beam<m...@privacy.net> considered Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:40:20 -0700
> > the perfect time to write:
>
> >> so why is it NEVER used in production or any application with
> >> certification krygowski? is it possible that you don't know something
> >> here??? [rhetorical]
>
> > Utter cobblers.
> > I've seen (and checked) flight control cables with soldered ends on
> > certified aircraft.
>
> one common method of wire rope termination is to splice a lead pig into
> it. i think that's what you're looking at - it's not soldering.
A jim beam wild guess, desperately hoping to save face.
>
> > Is your experience of cables similar to your experience of 2 stroke
> > diesels?
>
> perhaps you should read this?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_rope#Terminations
One benefit of these discussions is that jim does tend to go scurrying
around the internet, hoping to find some justification for the weird
things he's said. In the process, maybe he learns a little bit!
OTOH, I'm now waiting for him to claim that all bicycle cables are
terminated with clamps and thimbles. ;-)
But wait - what did they say there about molten zinc??? And isn't the
melting point of zinc higher than 150C???
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
> On Sep 13, 10:40�pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> .. your not knowing the difference between casting, die
>> casting, thixoforming and forging.
>
> More "jim beam" fantasy, I'm afraid. My, you do get imaginative when
> you know you've been shown to be wrong, don't you?
>
>>> [FK:]You claimed 150C can soften steel, which is true in the sense that
>>> it's detectable under certain conditions. �If you want to stand by the
>>> false idea that the degree of softening (or weakening) is critical for
>>> a cable, why not show us your numbers for the cable's temperature when
>
>
>> you're [pathetically] avoiding the question krygowski - what temperature
>> does the cable reach?
>
> jim, I've already stated the only important estimate for this
> discussion. Here it is again: If the casting temperature is above
> 400C (as it is for almost all zinc die casting alloys) then the cable
> in the neighborhood of the end button is going to get _way_ above the
> 150C you claimed as the onset of softening. It will be damned close
> to 400C.
you're just guessing - and clutching at straws. evidently you've never
studied heat transfer or solidification.
>
> You apparently disagree. So what temperature do _you_ think it will
> reach?
does that help you avoid the question?
>
> Disclaimer: It's been quite a few years since I did a serious
> calculation on non-steady state heat transfer like this - not that
> precise calculations are needed here.
no, they might get in the way of presumption!
> OTOH, I doubt you've ever done
> one. But please do give us your best guess! Are you going to
> seriously say the temperature's less than 150C?
er, you're the one asserting high temps krygowski - or should i say,
guessing.
>
>
>>> [FK:] Anyway, if take your "unsubstantiated insult" time and devote it to
>>> fabricating skills, you can probably learn to put ends on cables. �My
>>> first was a motorcycle clutch cable in 1973. �It worked at _least_
>>> until I donated the bike to a friend in about 1990, and it's probably
>>> still doing fine. �I've also done a tandem shift cable and a single
>>> bike brake cable when standard ones wouldn't do. �Never a failure.
>>> Despite your fearmongering, it's just not that hard.
>>
>> so why is it NEVER used in production or any application with
>> certification krygowski?
>
> You mean like elevators? For the same reason elevators aren't made of
> carbon fiber, jim. For the same reason that their cable pulleys don't
> have 18 spokes and aero rims. For the same reason that their controls
> aren't made by Shimano. Because elevators are not bicycles.
idiot.
>
> But they do have certain things in common. Both frequently feature
> cast components _and_ welds in tension, both of which successfully
> resist fatigue. It may astound some ex-metallurgists, but there it is!
> ;-)
see above.
>
>>> Quit fantasizing. �Get out a cable and a
>>> torch and learn how to do something practical.
>>
>> unlike you krygowski, i have used good old-fashioned testing on things
>> like this. �
>
> :-) Like fabricating your own cable end and riding with it? No, of
> course not. Your prissy plastic playthings must have all their
> components taken directly out of their factory-sealed plastic bags.
> And you'd never ride anything so unfashionable as to require a custom
> cable.
red herring bullshit.
>
>>> (You do know how to solder, don't you? �Or is "solidus" just a word
>>> you learned from a book?)
>>
>> word you learned from a book"??? �something you've NOT done you mean???
>> � "solidus" you fucking idiot, is the word used when describing one
>> component of a phase transition. �
>
> I know exactly, precisely what solidus means. And unlike you, I've
> made practical use of that knowledge.
yeah, like it helped you differentiate a forging from a thixoforming???
fucking idiot.
>
> Go ride your plastic toy. You're wasting our time.
you're avoiding the point krygowski. and you're a fraud. resign.
jim beam
for the last time, what temperature does the cable reach? jeepers
krygowski, for a fucking idiot fraud, you're surpassing even your usual
level of utter fucking idiocy.
Frank Krygowski
>
> for the last time, what temperature does the cable reach?
I gave my estimate. Are you too drunk to read it?
Where's _your_ estimate? Are you too drunk to give one?
And are you _really_ going to claim the temperature will be below the
ones you already quoted for softening the steel cable?
All those are rhetorical questions, of course. Even you know you're
now in a position where you can say nothing without blatantly
contradicting yourself. Hence the usual descent into drunken
obscenities.
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> considered Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:24:55 -0700
> the perfect time to write:
>
>> perhaps you should read this?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_rope#Terminations
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowden_cable#Ends
> More appropriate.
that must have been written by someone ignorant of the details like
krygowski - the ends are cast in place, not soldered.
look, here's the explanation as to why you don't solder, and you don't
find it in any critical applications.
1. heat can weaken the cable. it depends on the the type of cable, the
temperature attained and how long for, but it can. second-guessing by
laypersons as to the tolerance of the material is a foolish game.
2. by definition, solder flame heats the cable - it has to for wetting
to be achieved. a quick injection casting onto a cool cable otoh, heats
it, but not as much and not for as long because the cable starts cool,
and the mold is cool relative to the casting which conducts most of the
heat away. furthermore, a cast end doesn't wet the cable - the majority
of the "grip" is achieved by friction and the shrinkage crimping as the
casting cools.
3. the wetting action of solder partially dissolves the surface of the
cable. this may not be extensive, but towards the limit of the fatigue
spectrum, this can be a factor in shortening cable life.
4. soft soldering of bike cable to avoid heat problems is not secure -
the solder is weak. hard soldering is definitely too hot, regardless of
cable type.
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> look, here's the explanation as to why you don't solder, and you don't
> find it in any critical applications.
Rather, here's some supposition and bullshit.
>
> 1. heat can weaken the cable. it depends on the the type of cable, the
> temperature attained and how long for, but it can.
IOW, you have not even a wild guess as to how much you think it
_might_ weaken the cable. But the mere possibility - "it can" - means
people should not do what many people have successfully done.
>
> 2. by definition, solder flame heats the cable ...
Let me pause here to congratulate jim beam on getting _something_
correct!
> - it has to for wetting
> to be achieved. a quick injection casting onto a cool cable otoh, heats
> it, but not as much and not for as long ...
jim, you've somehow _still_ forgotten to give your estimate of the
temperature of the cable when the end is cast in place at over 400C!
Come on, I've given mine! Give yours, and relate it to your claims of
steel softening at 150C, please.
> furthermore, a cast end doesn't wet the cable - the majority
> of the "grip" is achieved by friction and the shrinkage crimping as the
> casting cools.
Hmm. The liquid zinc alloy doesn't wet the steel cable that's
immersed in it? Is it also true that commercially pure molten zinc
doesn't wet the steel that passes through it in a hot galvanizing
process? If so, there are lots of galvanizers you need to contact!
They're producing tons upon tons of product every day, in violation of
your prediction.
> 3. the wetting action of solder partially dissolves the surface of the
> cable. this may not be extensive, but towards the limit of the fatigue
> spectrum, this can be a factor in shortening cable life.
"May be, can be, might possibly be, I guess"? Got _any_ evidence,
_any_ numbers?
> 4. soft soldering of bike cable to avoid heat problems is not secure -
> the solder is weak.
Which is why the one unusual bike with the custom brake cable I made
many years ago is still using that same cable, ridden nearly every day
in Pittsburgh's hills?
You really need to get into a shop and do practical things with
metal. You're decades behind some of us.
- Frank Krygowski
Nate Nagel
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:00:41 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> 1. heat can weaken the cable. it depends on the the type of cable, the
>> temperature attained and how long for, but it can. second-guessing by
>> laypersons as to the tolerance of the material is a foolish game.
>
>
> and it's going to cause a problem? What problem would that be? The
> derailleur itself acts as a heat sink, bolted to another giant heat
> sink, to stop any heat flow to the operational part of the cable.
>
> I think we can file this under "more bullshit from jim beam".
>
I just ASSumed that the soldering would be done with the cable removed
from the housing... I see what you're saying about a heat sink, but I'd
still be worried about softening the cable housing liner. I mean, it
gets a little gooey just squaring it up on the bench grinder. Plus most
rear ders have little plastic bits in them.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
someone
No need to remove housing because the wire is best clamped a couple of
inches away with locking forceps which provides the sink so as to
protect the plastic liner. The small flame is directed at the nipple
and the nipple heats the wire cable through the flux, if you use rosin
flux then if the temp goes high it is ruined and the work will not
appear satisfactory. Using rosin flux is advisable. Using an acid
flux may cause premature failure because cleaning it all out is nigh
impossible.
jim beam
> On Sep 14, 11:00�pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> look, here's the explanation as to why you don't solder, and you don't
>> find it in any critical applications.
>
> Rather, here's some supposition and bullshit.
oh, the irony of the fraudulent impostor!
>
>
>>
>> 1. heat can weaken the cable. �it depends on the the type of cable, the
>> temperature attained and how long for, but it can.
>
> IOW, you have not even a wild guess as to how much you think it
> _might_ weaken the cable. But the mere possibility - "it can" - means
> people should not do what many people have successfully done.
wha??? what kind of a fucking idiot are you krygowski? apart from one
with no brain and no integrity that is.
>
>
>>
>> 2. by definition, solder flame heats the cable ...
>
> Let me pause here to congratulate jim beam on getting _something_
> correct!
er, see above for self-contradiction.
>
>> - it has to for wetting
>> to be achieved. �a quick injection casting onto a cool cable otoh, heats
>> it, but not as much and not for as long ...
>
> jim, you've somehow _still_ forgotten to give your estimate of the
> temperature of the cable when the end is cast in place at over 400C!
> Come on, I've given mine! Give yours, and relate it to your claims of
> steel softening at 150C, please.
idiot. depends on the system. your "guess" didn't even set out
principles, let alone attempt any accuracy.
>
>
>> �furthermore, a cast end doesn't wet the cable - the majority
>> of the "grip" is achieved by friction and the shrinkage crimping as the
>> casting cools.
>
> Hmm. The liquid zinc alloy doesn't wet the steel cable that's
> immersed in it?
krygowski fails a basic observation test.
> Is it also true that commercially pure molten zinc
> doesn't wet the steel that passes through it in a hot galvanizing
> process? If so, there are lots of galvanizers you need to contact!
> They're producing tons upon tons of product every day, in violation of
> your prediction.
krygowski fails a basic observation test. no attempt at theory either.
ever heard of "surface prep"? ever heard of "phase diagrams"?
>
>
>> 3. the wetting action of solder partially dissolves the surface of the
>> cable. �this may not be extensive, but towards the limit of the fatigue
>> spectrum, this can be a factor in shortening cable life.
>
> "May be, can be, might possibly be, I guess"? Got _any_ evidence,
> _any_ numbers?
er, i've analyzed failed cables and i've done metallography on solder
erosion. it doesn't take much of an engineering professor to connect
the dots. unless they're a fraud of course.
>
>> 4. soft soldering of bike cable to avoid heat problems is not secure -
>> the solder is weak. �
>
> Which is why the one unusual bike with the custom brake cable I made
> many years ago is still using that same cable, ridden nearly every day
> in Pittsburgh's hills?
ah, here we get back to the bottom line with you krygowski - you're a
fucking idiot!
>
> You really need to get into a shop and do practical things with
> metal. You're decades behind some of us.
i can do something practical with metal krygowski. would you like me to
swing by your place of fraud and imposture and show you some time?
jim beam
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:00:41 -0700, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> temperature attained and how long for, but it can. second-guessing by
>> laypersons as to the tolerance of the material is a foolish game.
>
>
> and it's going to cause a problem? What problem would that be? The
> derailleur itself acts as a heat sink, bolted to another giant heat
> sink, to stop any heat flow to the operational part of the cable.
>
> I think we can file this under "more bullshit from jim beam".
>
>
that's not what i said idiot. even i solder cable ends to stop fraying
because they're not loaded. i do NOT solder loaded nipple ends for the
reasons stated. and neither should you.
someone
> er, i've analyzed failed cables and i've done metallography on solder
> erosion. it doesn't take much of an engineering professor to connect
> the dots. unless they're a fraud of course.
Solder contamination of metals subjected to temperatures above which
soft soldering occurs is irrelevant.
At such temperatures the solder joint would have already failed and
the nipple would be retained by the taper pin used in a critical
control.
In a bicycle it is likely the operater would already be dead before
the solder melted in the control wire, hence the failure of the cable
after the incineration of the rider and bicycle would only interest a
most peculiar individual.
Bicycle cables fail whether soldered or not. An active flux may
increase failures because it is impossible to be certain of its
removal from within a multistrand cable. Successful soft soldering
with an inert flux never reduces longevity of a bicycle control wire.
jim beam
> On 16 Sep, 04:27, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> er, i've analyzed failed cables and i've done metallography on solder
>> erosion. �it doesn't take much of an engineering professor to connect
>> the dots. �unless they're a fraud of course.
>
> Solder contamination of metals subjected to temperatures above which
> soft soldering occurs is irrelevant.
fail.
> At such temperatures the solder joint would have already failed and
> the nipple would be retained by the taper pin used in a critical
> control.
nope. see above.
>
> In a bicycle it is likely the operater would already be dead before
> the solder melted in the control wire, hence the failure of the cable
> after the incineration of the rider and bicycle would only interest a
> most peculiar individual.
eh?
>
> Bicycle cables fail whether soldered or not. An active flux may
> increase failures because it is impossible to be certain of its
> removal from within a multistrand cable. Successful soft soldering
> with an inert flux never reduces longevity of a bicycle control wire.
fail.
Boyle M. Owl
> In a bicycle it is likely the operater would already be dead before
> the solder melted in the control wire, hence the failure of the cable
> after the incineration of the rider and bicycle would only interest a
> most peculiar individual.
Shall I crosspost this thread to alt.tasteless?
--
BMO
someone
> fail.
wrong and irrelevant.
> nope. see above.
wrong and irrelevant.
>
> > In a bicycle it is likely the operater would already be dead before
> > the solder melted in the control wire, hence the failure of the cable
> > after the incineration of the rider and bicycle would only interest a
> > most peculiar individual.
>
> eh?
ARRRGGHH!!!!
> fail.
wrong and irrelevant.
FAIL!
Comprehension seems to be sadly lacking this term. Must make more
effort.