Alfine 11 hub skipping under hard pedaling

[dstamat]

Dear All,

The Alfine 11 SG-S700 hub of my commuting bicycle has started to skip when I pedal standing up. Mostly around the middle of the range (5, 6 and 7). I hear a very loud noise and I have to stop pedaling. It does not happen when pedaling seated. When in 6 gear the two small yellow lines are aligned so I guess it is not because of bad adjustment.


I have had this bike for ~5 years but it has only been ridden for ~1000 mi. The oil of the hub has not been changed yet.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance

Dimitris

[AMuzi]

#1 problem is bent/rusted/damaged control cable so check
that first. If the wire is kinked, your initial adjustment
(line up dots) will be off in other gear selections.

If that all looks good and your chain is not obviously
worn/damaged you may have internal wear for which the only
replacement part is complete internal assembly. Quick to
change, not cheap.

If this bike has seen much salt water use, it will look like
this inside:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/nx7brokn.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/failnx16.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/alf8rust.jpg

If on opening there are not obvious rust/crud/broken small
gear bits then, cleaning and oiling makes sense. We grease
ends and bearing assemblies well and fill with 90W gear oil
as we do SA and SRAM gearboxes. The 'permanent' lubrication
so popular now doesn't seem to slow water penetration across
the seals very well. Note King and Parliamentthis is not
recommended by the manufacturer, YMMV.


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/26/2017 10:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> We grease ends and bearing
> assemblies well and fill with 90W gear oil as we do SA and SRAM
> gearboxes.

Are you including old classic Sturmey-Archer AW hubs in the above? I
always thought "light" or low viscosity oil was recommended for them.

Lately I've been using a few drops of automatic transmission oil every
few weeks. That's because I bought a quart a few years ago for another
application, and have enough left to will to my great-grandchildren. So
I use it to refill my pinpoint lubricator.

I suspect none of this is critical as long as the insides are moist, but
I thought I'd ask.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[dave]

Change the oil. Which will be very dirty by now probably as the parts
wear in together leaving some small metallic particles.

Run for a while then change again.

Failing this strip down clean out the inside and re-grease the bearings.


Handy pics.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/91563859@N07/albums/72157640605430014

Remove all children or those easily offended from the working area.
Gather up as many swear words in your memory as you can and thoroughly
prepare to use them all in a constant stream of profanity whilst
refitting the circlip (pingfuckit) that holds the cog on.:)

As for oil. Shimano oil is holy fuck expensive and also unavailable in
Turkey where I am. Any yellow metal safe manual transmission fluid should
do. NOT GL5 as the sulphur content is corrosive to yellow metals, of
which there are quite a few contained in the hub. GL4 should be fine but
may be difficult to find. ATF is not quite viscous enough and caused
skipping on mine.

Good luck.
--
davethedave

[Dennis Davis]

In article <oqfjf6$hc2$1...@dont-email.me>, dave <daved...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

>Remove all children or those easily offended from the working
>area. Gather up as many swear words in your memory as you can
>and thoroughly prepare to use them all in a constant stream of
>profanity whilst refitting the circlip (pingfuckit) that holds the
>cog on.:)

I have no real knowledge of these matters. But it might be possible
to remove/refit the circlip with the wheel/hub inside a large,
transparent plastic bag. With as small an opening as possible for
your hands. Might help prevent the errant circlip disappearing off
at light speed to join the Cassini probe in its demise on the planet
Saturn.
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

[cycl...@gmail.com]

OK - three points. Or a 92 on a wine tasting scale.

[dst...@ymail.com]

Dear All,

Thank you for your comments and advice. I investigated a little more and I have isolated the skipping to the 8th gear. It only happens after pedaling for a while so it is hard to replicate on a stand. Now, every time it happens, I change the adjustment a little and experiment with the frequency of the skips.

Also, as you suggested, I need to change the oil. The Shimano or Rohloff oils are ridiculously expensive, so I have found this alternative at a reasonable price:

Liqui Moly 1401 GL4 SAE 80 W Transmission Oil

For about $10 per quart it will allow me to rinse the hub more than once and change the oil more often. What do you think? Is this oil appropriate?

Many thanks again

Dimitris

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B004FPQYW4/

[Tosspot]

On 10/11/17 14:50, dst...@ymail.com wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Thank you for your comments and advice. I investigated a little more
> and I have isolated the skipping to the 8th gear. It only happens
> after pedaling for a while so it is hard to replicate on a stand.
> Now, every time it happens, I change the adjustment a little and
> experiment with the frequency of the skips.

Then I would say it's the cable. Alfine 11s are finicky sods for cable
runs an a nice free cable. Check it.

> Also, as you suggested, I need to change the oil. The Shimano or
> Rohloff oils are ridiculously expensive, so I have found this
> alternative at a reasonable price:
>
> Liqui Moly 1401 GL4 SAE 80 W Transmission Oil
>
> For about $10 per quart it will allow me to rinse the hub more than

> once and more change the oil. What do you think?

I use the green Shimano oil as I scored it at a good price for a litre.
In weight/feel/smell, it seems very close to ATF fluid, but a bit
thinner. Imho, it'd probably work fine, but I ain't paying for the
replacement!

[mike.pho...@gmail.com]

With so few miles, and single gear chain, it is very unlikely, but check the teeth on the hub for wear or rust build up.

[dave]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 05:50:34 -0800, dstamat wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Thank you for your comments and advice. I investigated a little more and
> I have isolated the skipping to the 8th gear. It only happens after
> pedaling for a while so it is hard to replicate on a stand. Now, every
> time it happens, I change the adjustment a little and experiment with
> the frequency of the skips.
>

> Also, as you suggested, I need to change the oil. The Shimano or Rohloff
> oils are ridiculously expensive, so I have found this alternative at a
> reasonable price:
>
> Liqui Moly 1401 GL4 SAE 80 W Transmission Oil
>
> For about $10 per quart it will allow me to rinse the hub more than once
> and more change the oil. What do you think?
>

> Many thanks again
>
> Dimitris
>

Should work fine if the viscosity is similar to the shimano oil.

Good luck.
--
davethedave

[JQ]

On 11/10/2017 8:50 AM, dst...@ymail.com wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Thank you for your comments and advice. I investigated a little more and I have isolated the skipping to the 8th gear. It only happens after pedaling for a while so it is hard to replicate on a stand. Now, every time it happens, I change the adjustment a little and experiment with the frequency of the skips.
>
> Also, as you suggested, I need to change the oil. The Shimano or Rohloff oils are ridiculously expensive, so I have found this alternative at a reasonable price:
>
> Liqui Moly 1401 GL4 SAE 80 W Transmission Oil
>
> For about $10 per quart it will allow me to rinse the hub more than once and more change the oil. What do you think?
>
> Many thanks again
>
> Dimitris
>

> https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B004FPQYW4/
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 3:22:34 PM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:

I would think the gear that is skipping is the one you ride in mostly,
right? If it is the case the chain has stretched and the gear teeth has
also stretched, so when it is under heavy load the instead of the chain
sitting in the chain groove it is slipping up and out.  causing the hops
or skips. Start saving up your money to replace both the chain and
cassette. You will be able to get many more miles but you will need to
start avoiding the gear that is slipping. Keep the chain clean and lubed
and the cassette clean to get the most out of it. A new or newish chain
may give you better performance but I would not put a new chain on there
until you switch out everything. Get a decent chain and cassette and
definitely don't go with the lightest one around as they will not last
as long. Good luck and safe riding...

--
Ride fast, ride hard, ride for health and enjoyment... Coach JQ Dancing
on the edge

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[John B.]

Does a Alfine hub use a cassette? And what sort of chain fits them? I
read somewhere that they run a 1/8" chain, but other sites mention
using a 9 speed chain?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

A 3/32" sprocket is supplied and riders run just about every
chain format on them. 1/8" chain runs fine on 3/32" teeth
and lasts longer. Incidentally 3/32" chain and sprockets all
have compatible chain-to-tooth dimensions. It's the outside
overall width which changes from 4/5 speed up to 11/12 speed
format.

[Frank Krygowski]

The Shimano Alfine 11 is an internal gear hub. It has only one sprocket.
The problem must be internal. And it's a pretty complicated beast.
See https://www.sheldonbrown.com/alfine-11.html

That article has some discussion of slipping problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[dave]

It doesn't have a cassette. It's an internally geared hub. The cog is
built like a brick shit house and 1000 miles is not going to trouble it
at all.

The hubs are very pernickity about lubrication and need regular oil
changes or they sulk. Our man, as he himself correctly says, needs to
change the oil. Ride it for a bit and then change the oil again and all
should be shiny and maybe even better than new as the parts will have
worn in together.

Mine has about 11000 on it now. It gets an oil change in winter and a
strip down clean and rebuild in spring. Still going OK.
--
davethedave

[Tosspot]

On 13/11/17 20:41, dave wrote:

<snip>

> The hubs are very pernickity about lubrication and need regular oil
> changes or they sulk. Our man, as he himself correctly says, needs to
> change the oil. Ride it for a bit and then change the oil again and all
> should be shiny and maybe even better than new as the parts will have
> worn in together.
>
> Mine has about 11000 on it now. It gets an oil change in winter and a
> strip down clean and rebuild in spring. Still going OK.

That's getting there. Are they tricksy to strip? Any links?

Mines got about 8k km on it, with one oil change, plan to do the next in
the spring. Is it really worth a strip?

[JQ]

On 11/13/2017 4:04 AM, JQ wrote:

i just realized that the bike in question is a hub system and not th
standard drive system. That's what happens when you pull and all nighter
with only a few hours sleep the few nights before. I have not worked on
a hub system so my advice may not be correct, sorry!

[JQ]

While giving it some more thought and think someone else mentioned it
too. I would still check the chain for stretch and the rear sprocket for
stretched teeth deformation. The same theory would apply. It is the gear
you have enough power to cause the chain to hop, the next bigger gear is
too much or you haven't given it enough power to hop and the easier gear
you may not be able to make it skip if had not pounced on it hard enough
before it would start to spin out. The internal hub is like a automobile
automatic transmission working off oil friction plates. If the oil is
contaminated or you are running two different oil types or there was a
manufacturing defect the hub should not skip only in one gear. If you
bought it new and it is still under warranty take it back to the shop.

[dave]

Worth it? I don't know. Personally, I like to check and re-grease the
bearings. Also there will be a bit of a build up of particulate laden
goop in the body of the hub that didn't come out with the oil change
which is nice to get rid of.

It is not an overly complex job for the averagely mechanically competent
person to do.

It is about a couple of hours work. Tools required; 15 and 17 mm cone
spanners, Shimano tool to remove the brake disc, Ping-fuckit pliers to
get the cog off. Small screw driver for prying the non drive side bearing
dust cover open. There's a specialised Shimano tool for the hub dust
cover but you can live without that. The dust cover is clockwise to
loosen.

There are a shit ton of small parts which may get confusing on reassembly
so I like to line them up in the correct order for reassembling in the
workshop (kitchen). Parts from the outside cog side to the middle and
parts from the other side to the middle.

1 remove nuts and lock washers.
2 Non Drive side: Remove disc.
3 Drive side: unclip the shifter attachment and strip for cleaning
4 Drive side: remove the dust seal
5 Drive Side: undo the cir-clip holding on the cog
6 Drive side: pop off the cog
7 Drive side: remove the main body dust seal (clockwise loosens).
8 Flip the wheel over a big jar. It WILL drip oil.
9 Non Drive side: remove the retaining nut and cone.
10 drop out the internals.
11 Non Drive side: pop the dust cover off the bearings.
12 Non Drive side: get your balls out.
13 clean and de-grease the hub body and ancillary parts.
14 re-assemble with fresh grease where necessary.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/91563859@N07/albums/72157640605430014



--
davethedave

[Tosspot]

On 14/11/17 06:36, dave wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:19:41 +0100, Tosspot wrote:

<snip>

>> Mines got about 8k km on it, with one oil change, plan to do the next in
>> the spring. Is it really worth a strip?
>
> Worth it? I don't know. Personally, I like to check and re-grease the
> bearings. Also there will be a bit of a build up of particulate laden
> goop in the body of the hub that didn't come out with the oil change
> which is nice to get rid of.

Sounds like a positive move.

> It is not an overly complex job for the averagely mechanically competent
> person to do.

I'm beginning to see the problem...

> It is about a couple of hours work. Tools required; 15 and 17 mm cone
> spanners, Shimano tool to remove the brake disc, Ping-fuckit pliers to
> get the cog off. Small screw driver for prying the non drive side bearing
> dust cover open. There's a specialised Shimano tool for the hub dust
> cover but you can live without that. The dust cover is clockwise to
> loosen.

Hmmm...I have all that including the dust cover spanner!

> There are a shit ton of small parts which may get confusing on reassembly
> so I like to line them up in the correct order for reassembling in the
> workshop (kitchen). Parts from the outside cog side to the middle and
> parts from the other side to the middle.
>
> 1 remove nuts and lock washers.
> 2 Non Drive side: Remove disc.
> 3 Drive side: unclip the shifter attachment and strip for cleaning
> 4 Drive side: remove the dust seal
> 5 Drive Side: undo the cir-clip holding on the cog
> 6 Drive side: pop off the cog
> 7 Drive side: remove the main body dust seal (clockwise loosens).
> 8 Flip the wheel over a big jar. It WILL drip oil.
> 9 Non Drive side: remove the retaining nut and cone.
> 10 drop out the internals.
> 11 Non Drive side: pop the dust cover off the bearings.
> 12 Non Drive side: get your balls out.
> 13 clean and de-grease the hub body and ancillary parts.
> 14 re-assemble with fresh grease where necessary.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/91563859@N07/albums/72157640605430014

That looks quite doable. Thanks for the link.

[dave]

No worries. Good luck getting the circlip back on. ;)
--
davethedave

[Tosspot]

On 15/11/17 07:55, dave wrote:

<snip>

> No worries. Good luck getting the circlip back on. ;)

Been there, done that, *ALL* the toys out the pram :-(