opinions of Alex AT400 32H rims?
cjcra...@idcomm.com
reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels, and
opinions were all over the place. Am I safe having these built up by
a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? I'm 175 lbs and not that
aggressive of a rider. Thanks in advance.
Chris
Lou Holtman
What do you mean by save?
They are just rims you know and you got them for free. At 175 lbs any
rim will be 'save'.
Lou
landotter
wrote:
Those are pretty light rims in the same family as a lot of "racing"
rims. A basic box eyeletted rim. Built up with proper tension they
should work marvelously. Do 3x lacing, nothing weird.
Alex recommends tensions of 90-110kgf front, and 110-130kgf rear drive
side. Make sure your builder gets that right. Have them show you the
tension with the meter.
someone
wrote:
Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
be useful for 25mm tyres and over. Those rims are single wall nipple
support, which usefully saves some weight. Problems may occur when a
'builder' uses excessive spoke tension in an attempt to create a
tougher wheel. Instead, he creates a wheel which will self destruct,
splitting the rim between the nipple holes. Spoke tension must be
minimised to provide the longest life from the rim. I use a test load
equivalent to twice the rider weight on a new wheel. This load will
just make the bottom spoke slack. This is more than enough tension in
the spokes for riding. Use some sort of threadlock on the nipples to
prevent unwinding (linseed oil is sufficient). There are more
sophisticated (expensive commercial) threadlocks. Feel free to spend,
its good for everyone.
someone
where did you find these tensions? I dont seem to be able to locate
them now.
landotter
> On 4 Aug, 22:15, "cjcrawf...@idcomm.com" <cjcrawf...@idcomm.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi - Friends just gave me 4 of these rims - new. Looked at some
> > reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels, and
> > opinions were all over the place. Am I safe having these built up by
> > a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? I'm 175 lbs and not that
> > aggressive of a rider. Thanks in advance.
>
> Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
> rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
> be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
Bullshit. People ride cross on OPs. Not the best tire to rim ratio,
but it's not the end of the world. They'd be just fine for 28s, which
are what just about everyone riding a road bike should be riding,
unless they're actually competitive.
[nomex underbritches]
> Those rims are single wall nipple
> support, which usefully saves some weight. Problems may occur when a
> 'builder' uses excessive spoke tension in an attempt to create a
> tougher wheel. Instead, he creates a wheel which will self destruct,
> splitting the rim between the nipple holes.
More bullshit. You have provided no evidence. Yes, in theory a
socketed rim is a great idea, Alex makes one (R350?), but if you've
been paying attention, you'd see that the rims getting cracked are of
either a brand, Mavic MA3, or a company that eschews even eyelets,
Velocity.
> Spoke tension must be
> minimised to provide the longest life from the rim.
Bullshit and a lie. I don't build enough wheels to claim I can counter
Jobst's "break it and back off a quarter turn" method, but a rim at
good tension stays true.
>I use a test load
> equivalent to twice the rider weight on a new wheel. This load will
> just make the bottom spoke slack. This is more than enough tension in
> the spokes for riding. Use some sort of threadlock on the nipples to
> prevent unwinding (linseed oil is sufficient). There are more
> sophisticated (expensive commercial) threadlocks. Feel free to spend,
> its good for everyone.
3X normal wheels don't really need threadlock in my experience. Seems
to be useful stuff for lower spoke wheels. Doesn't really hurt, but I
find oil to be messy. Probably because I don't build as many wheels as
Mr. Muzi.
landotter
They are on the Alex site in a question and answer format. They
recommended those numbers for all of the rims queried, so I'm guessing
that's what their "test kitchen" swears by. Or their lawyers. My daily
rider has Alex rims and 115kgf front and rear drive. As I mentioned in
another post, that's the wheelset that ate a storm drain and needed
only 1mm of truing.
someone
> > Those rims are single wall nipple
> > support, which usefully saves some weight. Problems may occur when a
> > 'builder' uses excessive spoke tension in an attempt to create a
> > tougher wheel. Instead, he creates a wheel which will self destruct,
> > splitting the rim between the nipple holes.
>
> More bullshit. You have provided no evidence. Yes, in theory a
> socketed rim is a great idea, Alex makes one (R350?), but if you've
> been paying attention, you'd see that the rims getting cracked are of
> either a brand, Mavic MA3, or a company that eschews even eyelets,
> Velocity.
That same rim is also offered with ferrules. I'm not really a fan of
ferrules because a proper nipple washer on the inner wall will serve
the purpose better at a lower weight penalty. Ferrules are there for
production speed as are eyelets. The wall does not look excessively
thin, but then I limit my spoke tension to what is required.
> > Spoke tension must be
> > minimised to provide the longest life from the rim.
>
> Bullshit and a lie. I don't build enough wheels to claim I can counter
> Jobst's "break it and back off a quarter turn" method, but a rim at
> good tension stays true.
It's "buckle the rim and back off 1/2 a turn". This is too high a
tension. A rim at good tension and stiffness stays true no matter how
hard you whack it. If you're still on the bike the rim should be
straight.
>
> >I use a test load
> > equivalent to twice the rider weight on a new wheel. This load will
> > just make the bottom spoke slack. This is more than enough tension in
> > the spokes for riding. Use some sort of threadlock on the nipples to
> > prevent unwinding (linseed oil is sufficient). There are more
> > sophisticated (expensive commercial) threadlocks. Feel free to spend,
> > its good for everyone.
>
> 3X normal wheels don't really need threadlock in my experience. Seems
> to be useful stuff for lower spoke wheels. Doesn't really hurt, but I
> find oil to be messy. Probably because I don't build as many wheels as
> Mr. Muzi.
The neat way to do it is to add a drop to the spoke thread (use a
blunt pencil point dipped into an eggcup) when you engage the nipple,
before spinning it on with the driver.
Norman
wrote:
They might be super deadly, you can never tell with
these sortsof things. Your best bet is to box them
up and send them to me. I'll build 'em up and (care-
fully) test them for 8 or 26 years on the pot-hole laced
roads of philly (thanks city street dpt! govt works and
all that!) and let you know.
No need to thank me, all in a day's work.
RonSonic
>On 4 Aug, 22:15, "cjcrawf...@idcomm.com" <cjcrawf...@idcomm.com>
>wrote:
>> Hi - Friends just gave me 4 of these rims - new. �Looked at some
>> reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels, and
>> opinions were all over the place. �Am I safe having these built up by
>> a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? �I'm 175 lbs and not that
>> aggressive of a rider. �Thanks in advance.
>
>Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
>rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
>be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
I was going to reply "Bullshit, BULLshit, BULLSHIT!!" Then I saw the landotter
beat me to it. Doesn't change a thing. Bullshit.
There is not a bicycle rim made that is too narrow to be used with a 25mm tire
in complete safety and comfort.
--
Oh damn. There's that annoying blog. Again. http://dumbbikeblog.blogspot.com
P. Chisholm
> On 4 Aug, 22:15, "cjcrawf...@idcomm.com" <cjcrawf...@idcomm.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi - Friends just gave me 4 of these rims - new. Looked at some
> > reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels, and
> > opinions were all over the place. Am I safe having these built up by
> > a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? I'm 175 lbs and not that
> > aggressive of a rider. Thanks in advance.
>
> Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
> rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
> be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
Poppycock. 25 and 28mm tires would be no problem with these and many
other similar rims.
Those rims are single wall nipple
> support, which usefully saves some weight. Problems may occur when a
> 'builder' uses excessive spoke tension in an attempt to create a
> tougher wheel. Instead, he creates a wheel which will self destruct,
> splitting the rim between the nipple holes. Spoke tension must be
> minimised to provide the longest life from the rim.
Or just use 100 kgf for the right side rear and I would do the same
for the front. double butted spokes, brass nipps, laced 3 cross, that
would wrk fine. No reason to overthink this.
landotter
> On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 15:26:34 -0700 (PDT), someone <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 4 Aug, 22:15, "cjcrawf...@idcomm.com" <cjcrawf...@idcomm.com>
> >wrote:
> >> Hi - Friends just gave me 4 of these rims - new. Looked at some
> >> reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels, and
> >> opinions were all over the place. Am I safe having these built up by
> >> a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? I'm 175 lbs and not that
> >> aggressive of a rider. Thanks in advance.
>
> >Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
> >rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
> >be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
>
> I was going to reply "Bullshit, BULLshit, BULLSHIT!!" Then I saw the landotter
> beat me to it. Doesn't change a thing. Bullshit.
>
> There is not a bicycle rim made that is too narrow to be used with a 25mm tire
> in complete safety and comfort.
Jesus could make a rim so narrow that you couldn't even mount a Pasela
on it. He could also make a sandwich so huge that even he couldn't eat
it.
RonSonic
Yeah, but he was a carpenter and wooden rims have been out of fashion for
decades. We're talking current production.
>He could also make a sandwich so huge that even he couldn't eat
>it.
As I heard it, he wasn't a big eater.
someone
Single wall or single wall support? I forget which rim etc it was.
x-sect, weight, material, # spokes, ga, other considerations. Wheel
details are important. Two wheels make a bicycle, other parts merely
allow you to use them.
someone
> On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 15:26:34 -0700 (PDT), someone <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 4 Aug, 22:15, "cjcrawf...@idcomm.com" <cjcrawf...@idcomm.com>
> >wrote:
> >> Hi - Friends just gave me 4 of these rims - new. Looked at some
> >> reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels, and
> >> opinions were all over the place. Am I safe having these built up by
> >> a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? I'm 175 lbs and not that
> >> aggressive of a rider. Thanks in advance.
>
> >Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
> >rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
> >be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
>
> I was going to reply "Bullshit, BULLshit, BULLSHIT!!" Then I saw the landotter
> beat me to it. Doesn't change a thing. Bullshit.
Self criticism is the only way to understanding.
>
> There is not a bicycle rim made that is too narrow to be used with a 25mm tire
> in complete safety and comfort.
I do not like the vague feeling when performing a forced turn so I do
not now use tyres too big for the rim, an internal dimensu=ion of 13mm
prevents the tyre (of 25mm)from tracking accurately. A wider rim
support the inner wall of the tyre better in the corner and reduces
the risk of tyre lift which is most frequent following a downhill
corner. The real answer is to use tub's.
someone
>
> > Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
> > rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
> > be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
>
> Poppycock. 25 and 28mm tires would be no problem with these and many
> other similar rims.
The rider does when the tyre peels off.
>
> Those rims are single wall nipple
>
> > support, which usefully saves some weight. Problems may occur when a
> > 'builder' uses excessive spoke tension in an attempt to create a
> > tougher wheel. Instead, he creates a wheel which will self destruct,
> > splitting the rim between the nipple holes. Spoke tension must be
> > minimised to provide the longest life from the rim.
>
> Or just use 100 kgf for the right side rear and I would do the same
> for the front. double butted spokes, brass nipps, laced 3 cross, that
> would wrk fine. No reason to overthink this.
>
I have come across rim manufacturers recommended spoke tensions as low
as "50kgf". This is clearly well away from "100kgf". Using a catch
all figure does not work, a 16 spoke wheel will require more than your
"100kgf", I may have seen "200kgf" somewhere.
P. Chisholm
> On 5 Aug, 13:30, "P. Chisholm" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
> > > rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
> > > be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
>
> > Poppycock. 25 and 28mm tires would be no problem with these and many
> > other similar rims.
>
> The rider does when the tyre peels off.
I install many 25/28/32 tires on many just everyday road rims with the
Alex dimensions and I have never had a customer have one 'peel off. If
you can't do this you are doing something wrong.
>
>
>
> > Those rims are single wall nipple
>
> > > support, which usefully saves some weight. Problems may occur when a
> > > 'builder' uses excessive spoke tension in an attempt to create a
> > > tougher wheel. Instead, he creates a wheel which will self destruct,
> > > splitting the rim between the nipple holes. Spoke tension must be
> > > minimised to provide the longest life from the rim.
>
> > Or just use 100 kgf for the right side rear and I would do the same
> > for the front. double butted spokes, brass nipps, laced 3 cross, that
> > would wrk fine. No reason to overthink this.
>
> I have come across rim manufacturers recommended spoke tensions as low
> as "50kgf". This is clearly well away from "100kgf". Using a catch
> all figure does not work, a 16 spoke wheel will require more than your
> "100kgf", I may have seen "200kgf" somewhere.
NO rim maker in existence today recommends tension that low. None.
I have built many 16 hole front wheels on 16 hole rims and I have
never used more than 100-110 kgf. None have failed, few go outta
true.
After 4000-5000 wheels, using the 'catch all figure' of 100-110 kgf
right side rear and front does work. Picking appropriate components
for the job works also.
Martin Borsje
> Lou
Putting quotes around 'save' while meaning safe? ;-)
How many spokes are we talking about?
I would say: the lesse the # of spokes, the less safe.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> Hi - Friends just gave me 4 of these rims - new. Looked at some
>>> reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels,
>>> and opinions were all over the place. Am I safe having these
>>> built up by a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? I'm 175 lbs and
>>> not that aggressive of a rider. Thanks in advance.
Just "Thanks, Chris Crawford" is customary in written communication.
Just leave off the clumsy "in advance" and you won't appear to be
unaccustomed to writing requests. Most readers and repliers don't
expect to wait for a return engagement in which you give thanks,
although you could do that when citing your success in the matter.
>> What do you mean by save? They are just rims you know and you got
>> them for free. At 175 lbs any rim will be 'save'.
> Putting quotes around 'save' while meaning safe? ;-)
> How many spokes are we talking about?
> I would say: the lesse the # of spokes, the less safe.
English not being your first language, you might not be familiar with
its peculiarities, such as less and fewer, like and as, that are some
of the most frequent misuses 'Americans' practice. For instance:
"As I said", rather than "Like I said" or "Whom should I ask?" instead
of "Who should I ask" and using "impact", not knowing whether "effect"
or "affect" is appropriate.
"I would say: the fewer the # of spokes, the less safe."
Whereas 'Brits' are at a loss for appropriate comparators, using
"rather", "quite", and "very" as though they were quantified amounts.
Awkward writing abounds in wreck.bike!
Jobst Brandt
Martin Borsje
>> Putting quotes around 'save' while meaning safe? ;-)
>> How many spokes are we talking about?
>> I would say: the lesse the # of spokes, the less safe.
> English not being your first language, you might not be familiar with
> its peculiarities, such as less and fewer, like and as, that are some
> of the most frequent misuses 'Americans' practice. For instance:
> "As I said", rather than "Like I said" or "Whom should I ask?" instead
> of "Who should I ask" and using "impact", not knowing whether "effect"
> or "affect" is appropriate.
> "I would say: the fewer the # of spokes, the less safe."
> Whereas 'Brits' are at a loss for appropriate comparators, using
> "rather", "quite", and "very" as though they were quantified amounts.
> Awkward writing abounds in wreck.bike!
> Jobst Brandt
Of course, we keep on learning :-)
'Save' triggered me just because of the quotes and the fact I once made
the same mistake (about): "Safe trees, don't print this'
As well Lou, no native English speaker as well, is robust enough to
cope with comments like these, as you might deduct from his many
comments ;-)
Cheers!
Martin
Ben C
[...]
>> I would say: the lesse the # of spokes, the less safe.
>
> English not being your first language, you might not be familiar with
> its peculiarities, such as less and fewer, like and as, that are some
> of the most frequent misuses 'Americans' practice.
>
> For instance:
>
> "As I said", rather than "Like I said" or "Whom should I ask?" instead
> of "Who should I ask" and using "impact", not knowing whether "effect"
> or "affect" is appropriate.
>
> "I would say: the fewer the # of spokes, the less safe."
Shouldn't it be the "the lower the # of spokes", or "the fewer the
spokes"? Can you have a fewer number?
Lou Holtman
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote on 06.08.09 :
Yes it was a mistake. Yes English is not my native language. Yes I can
handle your comment. No problem. What I want to say was, 'use those
rims you got for free and ride the shit out of them, instead of
starting another discussion here about rims, spokes, spokecount, tire
width etc. etc.'.
Lou
Tom Sherman °_°
> [...]
> Yes it was a mistake. Yes English is not my native language. Yes I can
> handle your comment. No problem. What I want to say was, 'use those
> rims you got for free and ride the shit out of them, instead of
> starting another discussion here about rims, spokes, spokecount, tire
> width etc. etc.'.
>
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
Celebrity culture is an opposite of community, informing us
that these few nonsense-heads matter but that the rest of
us do not. - Jay Griffiths
someone
not usual with a given rim. Best to fill up all the holes the
manufacturer made.
someone
It all depends on what surface you are riding and how much springing
you desire. The tyre tread is a good place to start for it is here
that the work is done, unless you use slick tyres on imperfect or
debris strewn or smooth surface in which case you fal on your arse.
With a given rim, there are a few choices to be made. What spoke
gauge, lacing and tension and choice of tyre/tube. The variations are
open for discussion.
RonSonic
>Martin Borsje wrote:
>
>>>> Hi - Friends just gave me 4 of these rims - new. Looked at some
>>>> reviews on the internet, which where mostly for built up wheels,
>>>> and opinions were all over the place. Am I safe having these
>>>> built up by a wheel builder with 14/15 spokes? I'm 175 lbs and
>>>> not that aggressive of a rider. Thanks in advance.
>
>Just "Thanks, Chris Crawford" is customary in written communication.
>Just leave off the clumsy "in advance" and you won't appear to be
>unaccustomed to writing requests. Most readers and repliers don't
>expect to wait for a return engagement in which you give thanks,
>although you could do that when citing your success in the matter.
The "in advance" has the benefit of making the "thanks" conditional. If someone
thanks me "in advance" and I fail to do the thing for which I was thanked in
advance then there are no thanks extended, since the thanks were in advance of
the thing being thanked for. So this way one can restrict his thanks to people
who have actually done him a service rather than waste those thankes on people
who were unsuccessful. Nice and lawyerly.
Ron
AMuzi
>> [...]
>> Yes it was a mistake. Yes English is not my native language. Yes I can
>> handle your comment. No problem. What I want to say was, 'use those
>> rims you got for free and ride the shit out of them, instead of
>> starting another discussion here about rims, spokes, spokecount, tire
>> width etc. etc.'.
Tom Sherman �_� wrote:
> You forgot ERD. ;)
Oh, back to religion. I learned from Gene that, in Florida
at least, ERD is Three but also One. It's a Mystery.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
landotter
> > Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> Yes it was a mistake. Yes English is not my native language. Yes I can
> >> handle your comment. No problem. What I want to say was, 'use those
> >> rims you got for free and ride the shit out of them, instead of
> >> starting another discussion here about rims, spokes, spokecount, tire
> >> width etc. etc.'.
> Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
> > You forgot ERD. ;)
>
> Oh, back to religion. I learned from Gene that, in Florida
> at least, ERD is Three but also One. It's a Mystery.
>
You've never seen my Nashville Meat & 3 t-shirt. It's Jesus, the Holy
Spirit, Daddy, and a turkey leg!
someone
> On Aug 5, 10:35 am, someone <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 5 Aug, 13:30, "P. Chisholm" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Depends on your definition of "wheel builder". They are rather narrow
> > > > rims, so it also depends on your choice of tyre, dont expect them to
> > > > be useful for 25mm tyres and over.
>
> > > Poppycock. 25 and 28mm tires would be no problem with these and many
> > > other similar rims.
>
> > The rider does when the tyre peels off.
>
> I install many 25/28/32 tires on many just everyday road rims with the
> Alex dimensions and I have never had a customer have one 'peel off. If
> you can't do this you are doing something wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Those rims are single wall nipple
>
> > > > support, which usefully saves some weight. Problems may occur when a
> > > > 'builder' uses excessive spoke tension in an attempt to create a
> > > > tougher wheel. Instead, he creates a wheel which will self destruct,
> > > > minimised to provide the longest life from therim.
>
> > > Or just use 100 kgf for the right side rear and I would do the same
> > > for the front. double butted spokes, brass nipps, laced 3 cross, that
> > > would wrk fine. No reason to overthink this.
>
> > as "50kgf". This is clearly well away from "100kgf". Using a catch
> > all figure does not work, a 16 spoke wheel will require more than your
> > "100kgf", I may have seen "200kgf" somewhere.
>
%%% There is! Just where? %%%