7005 vs 6061 aluminum
a&b
7's were not as "good" as the 6061.
Thanks
bg
Phil Holman
properties and can make a lighter frame. 7005 is questionable in the heat
affected zone because I'm pretty sure they don't get heat treated after
welding. Maybe this is allowed for in the design.
Phil Holman
a&b wrote in message <38C1A9EC...@uab.edu>...
Jon Isaacs
>properties and can make a lighter frame. 7005 is questionable in the heat
>affected zone because I'm pretty sure they don't get heat treated after
>welding. Maybe this is allowed for in the design.
I believe that aluminum bicycle frames are heat treated after they are welded.
Jon Isaacs
Roger
>
> Anyone know the difference in these two? Seems I read somewhere that the
> 7's were not as "good" as the 6061.
> Thanks
> bg
7005 doesn't require post-weld heat treatment so is cheaper to use.
I've heard that 6061 has better fatigue qualities.
--
Roger
Web: http://freespace.virgin.net/roger.cantwell
ICQ: 40038278
*** Please watch the spam trap ***
Phil Holman
realligning an aluminum frame if you heat treat it. Unless they have a
special process that I'm not aware of, there will be some post heat treat
distortion.
Phil Holman
Jon Isaacs wrote in message
<20000305081023...@ng-bh1.aol.com>...
Webster :-)
> >properties and can make a lighter frame. 7005 is questionable in the heat
> >affected zone because I'm pretty sure they don't get heat treated after
> >welding. Maybe this is allowed for in the design.
>
> I believe that aluminum bicycle frames are heat treated after they are
welded.
>
I was under the impression that 7000 series aluminium work hardens whereas
6000 series needs to be heat treated I think the T6 commonly seen after the
6061 on bike frames is the type of heat treating it has had.
--
-Tom Webster.. t.h.web...@student.lboro.ac.uk
Mike Jacoubowsky
7xxx...enough so that frames built out of 7xxx tubing have to be
considerably heavier (thicker) if they're to hold up for awhile. The *big*
advantage to a frame builder is that 7xxx tubing doesn't require heat
treatment, so you can build a very cheap frame from the stuff (it's not the
tubing cost that make a frame expensive, it's the fabrication).
I'm not a fan of 7xxx stuff. Actually, I'm not much of a fan of any
aluminum alloy much outside the 6061 family. 6061, properly used (heat
treated), has a great track record. It works. I see and hear of lots of
problems with various other "cutting edge" aluminum alloys. Ever notice how
few of the "bleeding edge" aluminum frames from a few years ago are still on
the market?
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Roger" <roger.c...@removethis.virgin.net> wrote in message
news:38C24F46...@removethis.virgin.net...
Dave Korzekwa
> I was under the impression that 7000 series aluminium work hardens whereas
> 6000 series needs to be heat treated I think the T6 commonly seen after the
> 6061 on bike frames is the type of heat treating it has had.
7000 series aluminum alloys are hardened by heat treatment. Maximum
strength is achieved by T6 temper (quenching from a high temperature
and then reheating to age). That doesn't necessarily mean that the
frames are heat treated after welding. This alloy should still have
reasonably good properties after welding. I doubt that my wife's Kona
7005 frame was reheated and quenched after welding, just based on the
price. I would be more specific, but I don't see 7005 tubing listed
in my Aluminum Association specs, so I have to guess at the likely
fabrication process.
I would have to hunt for toughness and fatigue properties, but 7005
might be less tough than 6061 at equivalent strength levels. This
could account for the claims that 7005 frames are heavier or otherwise
inferior.
Dave Korzekwa
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Speaking only for myself.
Glenn
>
> Anyone know the difference in these two? Seems I read somewhere that the
> 7's were not as "good" as the 6061.
> Thanks
> bg
7005 is about 10% stronger, but 6061 is a little more elastic. Both
materials loose about 75% of their strength in the annealed state.
Welding causes annealing in the area next to the weld.
--
Glenn Loafing along on a Windcheetah @\_,o
Manteca, California, USA
Jon Isaacs
>could account for the claims that 7005 frames are heavier or otherwise
>inferior.
I have done a web search on 7005 and found several frames that are clearly high
end that use 7005. One such frame was the Ellsworth Sub 3 hard tail MTB frame
which was made with 7005.
Mountain Bike Review has a web page which explains the differences. BOth
materials must be heat treated after welding. It appears that the difference
between 6061 and 7005 is that 7005 can be heat treated more easily if partially
heat treated tubes are used for fabrication.
I suspect that cheaper frames are made from 7005 because it is cheaper to
fabricate with because it can require a much simpler heat treatment after
welding. I suspect that the thicker, heavier tubes make for easier fabrication
by machine or whatever technique is used. Thicker tubes are less likely to
suffer joint damage also.
I suspect that high end frames such as the Ellsworth probably use 7005 because
if handled properly it is stronger than 6061.
The following is a quote from MTBR web page:
(http://www.mtbr.com/files/data/250.html)
Welding cuts down on your choice of alloy, and in the bike world, the two most
commonly used are 6061, and 7005. When you weld a frame, you will have to heat
treat the result, without it, the joints are quite fragile.
Both alloys get equivalent heat treatments, the exact amounts differ. As a
result, you can't mix the two in the same welded frame. (you could bond them
however). 7000 series has an advantage that it is hard to anneal, and thus
degrades less with welding. The result: If you start from heat treated and aged
tube, you can often avoid having to solution heat treat the whole frame after
welding. The tube is delivered with heat treatment, and half of the artifical
aging already done, and if treated with care, will only require some additional
artifical aging after the frame is finish joined. 6061, with its greater
sensitivity (its a lot easier to anneal, it only needs 2.5 hours of heating to
anneal, 7005 needs 11), will require that the whole frame be heat treated after
welding.
Avoiding the heat treat phase is a good thing, as it requires much higher
temperatures. Artifical age can be done in a pizza oven, heat treating requres
purpose built ovens.
Tho X. Bui
Lloyd wrote:
> 7005 T6 does not require 'post-weld' heattreatment to achieve a higher
> temper as it is welded at its highest, T6, however it does require post-weld
> treatment to reduce the crystallization of the alloy structure in the weld
> zone, this is generally a two part treatment one part being to "settle" the
> material from the stresses of welding and is around 90deg C, the second
> stage is to artificially age the material and is at a higher temperature and
> for a short period. 6061 tubing as commonly used for bicycle manufacture
> requires Solution heattreatment whereby the frame is heated to a point just
> below the 'melting' point of the alloy and then Quenched in a water/glycol
> mix to achieve the T6 temper. This process can distort the frame resulting
> in the alignment being preformed after heattreatment placing further
> stresses on the frame. 7005 T6 frames are aligned prior to post weld
> treatment placing less direct stress on the finished heattreated structure.
Umm....
Are you sure what you describe for T6 is correct? While solid solution
treatment of 6061 does increase its strength (this treatment results in
a drop of strength for most of the other alloys), it certainly doesn't
give it the highest strength. Age hardening treatment after SS heat
treatment will increase 6061 strength above that of the SS heat treatment.
Additionally, I doubt if the heat treatment stresses make much of a
difference in the life of the frame, esp. after it has been properly
aligned so that there is no preload during use.
Most manufacturers, for obvious reasons, do not give details of their
heat treatment procedure. Most of the stuff I've read in this thread so
far seems to be more conjecture than anything else. Just as steel can be
used in many form (annealed, quench and tempered, cold worked, etc.),
aluminum alloys can be used in many forms from O (annealed) to H19
(coldworked and fully heat treated for strength). The choice is up to
the designer and his bean-counter. Can any of you folks really vouch for
your source of info?
Tho
Tho X. Bui
Dave Korzekwa wrote:
>
> > Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > news:38C300F7...@prodigy.net...
> > > Are you sure what you describe for T6 is correct? While solid solution
> > > treatment of 6061 does increase its strength (this treatment results in
> > > a drop of strength for most of the other alloys), it certainly doesn't
> > > give it the highest strength. Age hardening treatment after SS heat
> > > treatment will increase 6061 strength above that of the SS heat treatment.
>
> quenching. Also, I don't think 6061 and 7005 differ significantly in
> elastic modulus.
According to the standards (a quick check with Metals Handbook will
verify this), 6061 should have decent strength immediately after
quenching, about 35 ksi. Aging at 345F for 6-10 hours should give you
T6 and about 45 ksi. A marginal but real increase. Most of these alloys
have similar young's mod, except for, of course, the Al-Li series. But
even those (I think) only increase it by 15% max, pretty small.
We're of course are well beyond the useful part of this discussion :-)
My favorite bicycle material is metallic-flake red with 2 layers of
clear coat and very thin decals.
Tho
Lloyd
alluminium alloy. 7005 has approximately a 5-10% greater Tensile and yield
strength however it has a lower modules of elasticity which might lead
people to think it is an inferior alloy to 6061 which is not the case.
7005 T6 does not require 'post-weld' heattreatment to achieve a higher
temper as it is welded at its highest, T6, however it does require post-weld
treatment to reduce the crystallization of the alloy structure in the weld
zone, this is generally a two part treatment one part being to "settle" the
material from the stresses of welding and is around 90deg C, the second
stage is to artificially age the material and is at a higher temperature and
for a short period. 6061 tubing as commonly used for bicycle manufacture
requires Solution heattreatment whereby the frame is heated to a point just
below the 'melting' point of the alloy and then Quenched in a water/glycol
mix to achieve the T6 temper. This process can distort the frame resulting
in the alignment being preformed after heattreatment placing further
stresses on the frame. 7005 T6 frames are aligned prior to post weld
treatment placing less direct stress on the finished heattreated structure.
6061 is in all aspects a "lesser" alloy to 7005. 6061 is far easier to weld
than 7005 resulting in cleaner, neater welds.
6083 (6351) has properties very similar to 7005 however due to its higher
tensile strength is harder to extrude and suffers from post weld
precipitation of the alloy with weld zone failures common even if all
heattreatment steps are followed correctly.
Most problems associated with 7005 frames failing are related to poor
manufacturing standards not the material. 7005 is not as "forgiving" as
6061. As far as claims of "bleeding edge" bikes not being around has very
little to so with the quality of the product and more to do with the
companies rushing to produce lightweight frames using very high grade
materials and believing they could cut corners in manufacturing. I still
know of Easton Elite 7005 frames around that were built and used by the
Australian team at the 1996 Olympics and are still alive and kicking because
they were build correctly in the first place.
Generalization:
Easy to build frames, good strength to weight very low cost 6061
Extremely lightweight, strong performance frames 7005
Lloyd
--
Deewal Pty Ltd.
email: ll...@deewal.com
web: http://www.deewal.com
Mike Jacoubowsky <Mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9_xw4.3340$im1....@news.pacbell.net...
> This is true...6061's fatigue properties are greatly superior to that of
> 7xxx...enough so that frames built out of 7xxx tubing have to be
> considerably heavier (thicker) if they're to hold up for awhile. The
*big*
> advantage to a frame builder is that 7xxx tubing doesn't require heat
> treatment, so you can build a very cheap frame from the stuff (it's not
the
> tubing cost that make a frame expensive, it's the fabrication).
>
> I'm not a fan of 7xxx stuff. Actually, I'm not much of a fan of any
> aluminum alloy much outside the 6061 family. 6061, properly used (heat
> treated), has a great track record. It works. I see and hear of lots of
> problems with various other "cutting edge" aluminum alloys. Ever notice
how
> few of the "bleeding edge" aluminum frames from a few years ago are still
on
> the market?
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
>
>
> "Roger" <roger.c...@removethis.virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:38C24F46...@removethis.virgin.net...
> > a&b wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone know the difference in these two? Seems I read somewhere that
the
> > > 7's were not as "good" as the 6061.
> > > Thanks
> > > bg
> >
MAC
What is Giant's CU92 aluminum, if you know? Just curious.
"Lloyd" <ll...@deewal.com> wrote in message
news:38c4...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Lloyd
source of the info is 100% acurate. For details on solution heattreatment of
6061 T6 tubesets sold by Easton you can simply cantact them and request the
details, it is in the rear of their product brochure.
I have also used 6061, 6083, 6351, 6063 and 7003 materials in T4 temper.
Lloyd
--
Deewal Pty Ltd.
email: ll...@deewal.com
web: http://www.deewal.com
Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:38C300F7...@prodigy.net...
>
> Lloyd wrote:
>
> > 7005 T6 does not require 'post-weld' heattreatment to achieve a higher
> > temper as it is welded at its highest, T6, however it does require
post-weld
> > treatment to reduce the crystallization of the alloy structure in the
weld
> > zone, this is generally a two part treatment one part being to "settle"
the
> > material from the stresses of welding and is around 90deg C, the second
> > stage is to artificially age the material and is at a higher temperature
and
> > for a short period. 6061 tubing as commonly used for bicycle manufacture
> > requires Solution heattreatment whereby the frame is heated to a point
just
> > below the 'melting' point of the alloy and then Quenched in a
water/glycol
> > mix to achieve the T6 temper. This process can distort the frame
resulting
> > in the alignment being preformed after heattreatment placing further
> > stresses on the frame. 7005 T6 frames are aligned prior to post weld
> > treatment placing less direct stress on the finished heattreated
structure.
>
> Umm....
>
> Are you sure what you describe for T6 is correct? While solid solution
> treatment of 6061 does increase its strength (this treatment results in
> a drop of strength for most of the other alloys), it certainly doesn't
> give it the highest strength. Age hardening treatment after SS heat
> treatment will increase 6061 strength above that of the SS heat treatment.
>
Lloyd
A very good allow only there are some troubles with heattreatment as details
however Goaint seem to have this under control. The main difference between
6061 and 6351 is the slightly higher Titanium and Silicon content.
Lloyd
--
Deewal Pty Ltd.
email: ll...@deewal.com
web: http://www.deewal.com
MAC <moh...@home.com> wrote in message
news:eL%w4.20979$bm.1...@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com...
> Lloyd,
> What is Giant's CU92 aluminum, if you know? Just curious.
>
> "Lloyd" <ll...@deewal.com> wrote in message
> news:38c4...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > 6061 is a Silicon based alluminium alloy, 7005 is primarily a Zinc based
> > alluminium alloy. 7005 has approximately a 5-10% greater Tensile and
yield
> > strength however it has a lower modules of elasticity which might lead
> > people to think it is an inferior alloy to 6061 which is not the case.
> >
> > 7005 T6 does not require 'post-weld' heattreatment to achieve a higher
> > temper as it is welded at its highest, T6, however it does require
> post-weld
> > treatment to reduce the crystallization of the alloy structure in the
weld
> > zone, this is generally a two part treatment one part being to "settle"
> the
> > material from the stresses of welding and is around 90deg C, the second
> > stage is to artificially age the material and is at a higher temperature
> and
> > for a short period. 6061 tubing as commonly used for bicycle manufacture
> > requires Solution heattreatment whereby the frame is heated to a point
> just
> > below the 'melting' point of the alloy and then Quenched in a
water/glycol
> > mix to achieve the T6 temper. This process can distort the frame
resulting
> > in the alignment being preformed after heattreatment placing further
> > stresses on the frame. 7005 T6 frames are aligned prior to post weld
> > treatment placing less direct stress on the finished heattreated
> structure.
> >
> > 6061 is in all aspects a "lesser" alloy to 7005. 6061 is far easier to
> weld
> > than 7005 resulting in cleaner, neater welds.
> >
> > 6083 (6351) has properties very similar to 7005 however due to its
higher
> > tensile strength is harder to extrude and suffers from post weld
> > precipitation of the alloy with weld zone failures common even if all
> > heattreatment steps are followed correctly.
> >
> > Most problems associated with 7005 frames failing are related to poor
> > manufacturing standards not the material. 7005 is not as "forgiving" as
> > 6061. As far as claims of "bleeding edge" bikes not being around has
very
> > little to so with the quality of the product and more to do with the
> > companies rushing to produce lightweight frames using very high grade
> > materials and believing they could cut corners in manufacturing. I still
> > know of Easton Elite 7005 frames around that were built and used by the
> > Australian team at the 1996 Olympics and are still alive and kicking
> because
> > they were build correctly in the first place.
> >
> > Generalization:
> > Easy to build frames, good strength to weight very low cost 6061
> > Extremely lightweight, strong performance frames 7005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lloyd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Deewal Pty Ltd.
> > email: ll...@deewal.com
> > web: http://www.deewal.com
> >
Mark Schadler
Since you seem to be very knowledgeable on bicycle frames, may I ask what
aluminum is used on the 2000 Klein QUANTUMS? How is Kleins "gradient" tubing
better (or in their words, "aerospace grade" than other bicycle aluminum?
Thanks
Mark
><}}'> ><}}'> ><}}'> ><}}'> ><}}'> ><}}'> ><}}'>
>>>Mark Schadler<<<
www.enter.net/~lehighwheelmen/
Dave Korzekwa
> I manufacture 1000 or more 7005 T6 and 6061 T6 framesets per year. The
> source of the info is 100% acurate. For details on solution heattreatment of
> 6061 T6 tubesets sold by Easton you can simply cantact them and request the
> details, it is in the rear of their product brochure.
>
> I have also used 6061, 6083, 6351, 6063 and 7003 materials in T4 temper.
Good credentials.
> Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:38C300F7...@prodigy.net...
> > Are you sure what you describe for T6 is correct? While solid solution
> > treatment of 6061 does increase its strength (this treatment results in
> > a drop of strength for most of the other alloys), it certainly doesn't
> > give it the highest strength. Age hardening treatment after SS heat
> > treatment will increase 6061 strength above that of the SS heat treatment.
You are right about this, Tho. T6 requires an aging treatment after
quenching. Also, I don't think 6061 and 7005 differ significantly in
elastic modulus.
> >
> > Additionally, I doubt if the heat treatment stresses make much of a
> > difference in the life of the frame, esp. after it has been properly
> > aligned so that there is no preload during use.
> >
> > Most manufacturers, for obvious reasons, do not give details of their
> > heat treatment procedure. Most of the stuff I've read in this thread so
> > far seems to be more conjecture than anything else. Just as steel can be
> > used in many form (annealed, quench and tempered, cold worked, etc.),
> > aluminum alloys can be used in many forms from O (annealed) to H19
> > (coldworked and fully heat treated for strength). The choice is up to
> > the designer and his bean-counter. Can any of you folks really vouch for
> > your source of info?
I have no direct info about frame manufacture, but I know a fair
amount about aluminum metallurgy and I have access to published
standards and people in the industry. Lloyd's processing descriptions
ring very true to me, even though his metallurgical terminology isn't
always accurate. In my experience, aluminum producers are very good
at working out processing schedules for their customers' products.
Lloyd sounds like a good source of first hand info about this.
Mark Hickey
><br>email: ll...@deewal.com
><br>web: <a href="http://www.deewal.com">http://www.deewal.com</a>
><p>Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
Kind of a shame that anyone posting in html format gets ignored by so
many of us (it's just impossible to read). We might be missing some
good input.
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/
Home of the $695 ti frame
Sheldon Brown
>
> Kristian Slot <Kli...@sporty.dk> wrote:
>
> ><br>email: ll...@deewal.com
> ><br>web: <a href="http://www.deewal.com">http://www.deewal.com</a>
> ><p>Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
> Kind of a shame that anyone posting in html format gets ignored by so
> many of us (it's just impossible to read).
It's actually quite readable if you have modern software. I use the
excellen Netscape newsreader (it's FREE!) and it works fine.
Back in the olden days, the insistence on ascii made good sense due to
the limited bandwidth available.
Given the current state of technology, it's a much less clear call
today.
I'd imagine that these arguments will seem very quaint in a couple of
years as the technology and bandwidth capability advance, but that there
will always be an ever-shrinking minority of ascii True Believers.
> We might be missing some good input.
Yes, the site referred to looks pretty informative...I never knew this
manufacturer's frames were "shot peed."
Sheldon "Not Bothered By HTML" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| In order to understand recursion, |
| first, you have to understand recursion. |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772, 617-244-1040 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
Mark Chandler
> Mark Hickey wrote:
> >
> > Kristian Slot <Kli...@sporty.dk> wrote:
> >
> > ><br>email: ll...@deewal.com
> > ><br>web: <a href="http://www.deewal.com">http://www.deewal.com</a>
> > ><p>Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >
> > Kind of a shame that anyone posting in html format gets ignored by so
> > many of us (it's just impossible to read).
>
> It's actually quite readable if you have modern software. I use the
> excellen Netscape newsreader (it's FREE!) and it works fine.
"Fine" is relative.
> Back in the olden days, the insistence on ascii made good sense due to
> the limited bandwidth available.
>
> Given the current state of technology, it's a much less clear call
> today.
Not everyone is on 56K modems, etc. Not everyone has unlimited hours
provided by their ISPs. Non-PC "toasters" shouldn't be burdened with
html when plain text gets the message across load and clear.
--m "I'll give up pine when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers" c
==============================================
Mark Chandler Concord, CA ve...@value.net
http://value.net/~velo
==============================================
Matt O'Toole
"Sheldon Brown" <capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
news:38C5969D...@sheldonbrown.com...
> Back in the olden days, the insistence on ascii made good sense due to
> the limited bandwidth available.
>
> Given the current state of technology, it's a much less clear call
> today.
It's still a pretty clear call, and it has nothing to do with bandwidth.
First, HTML news programs aren't reliable in generating good HTML. Even if
they succeed in generating a readable message the first time, they're
guranteed to screw up a reply. So, more often than not, an HTML post winds
up as a pile of ASCII gobbledygook by the second or third reply.
Considering most people can't even edit out their extra ">>," or use line
breaks properly, what we wind up with is a great big mess.
Second, I have my newsreader configured so that I can sit back in my chair
and read the text easily and quickly without squinting. It's annoying when
someone throws a monkey wrench into my setup by getting "creative" with
dinky, faint fonts and dark backgrounds. Nothing reads as well as clear
black text on a white background, which is why virtually all books are still
printed that way.
> I'd imagine that these arguments will seem very quaint in a couple of
> years as the technology and bandwidth capability advance,
I hope so, but...
> but that there
> will always be an ever-shrinking minority of ascii True Believers.
This isn't a religious issue. There has been much experimentation in
several hundred years of publishing. We know what works, whether in print,
or on a computer screen.
Matt O.
Lloyd
"soft-age" at 160 deg C. for 4 1/2 hours. Because it is so close to the
Easton 7005 T6 treatment I simply missed this part when responding, last
6061 frame I did was August 99. We have manufactured frames out of 6351 in
T4 and not quenched the frames simply conducted the "soft-age" process.
If anyone out there had a Living-X Mtb that was ex-Australia these frames
were built in this manner and mostly failed as I previous stated about this
grade of alloy. I did manufacture a small quantity of these frames however
we refused to continue down this path after our consulting metallurgists
advised there would continue to be failures.
Lloyd
--
Deewal Pty Ltd.
email: ll...@deewal.com
web: http://www.deewal.com
Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:38C3A44D...@prodigy.net...
>
> Dave Korzekwa wrote:
> >
> > > Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:38C300F7...@prodigy.net...
> > > > Are you sure what you describe for T6 is correct? While solid
solution
> > > > treatment of 6061 does increase its strength (this treatment results
in
> > > > a drop of strength for most of the other alloys), it certainly
doesn't
> > > > give it the highest strength. Age hardening treatment after SS heat
> > > > treatment will increase 6061 strength above that of the SS heat
treatment.
> >
> > You are right about this, Tho. T6 requires an aging treatment after
> > quenching. Also, I don't think 6061 and 7005 differ significantly in
> > elastic modulus.
>
Lloyd
Kristian Slot <Kli...@sporty.dk> wrote in message news:38C56290...@sporty.dk...Why not use 7020? Some claim that is the best alu for bikeframes.
see: http://www.principia.dk/Technical.htmlKristian
Lloyd wrote:
I manufacture 1000 or more 7005 T6 and 6061 T6 framesets per year. The
source of the info is 100% acurate. For details on solution heattreatment of
6061 T6 tubesets sold by Easton you can simply cantact them and request the
details, it is in the rear of their product brochure.
I have also used 6061, 6083, 6351, 6063 and 7003 materials in T4 temper.
Lloyd
--
Deewal Pty Ltd.
email: ll...@deewal.com
web: http://www.deewal.com
Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
> Lloyd wrote:
>
> > 7005 T6 does not require 'post-weld' heattreatment to achieve a higher
> > temper as it is welded at its highest, T6, however it does require
post-weld
> > treatment to reduce the crystallization of the alloy structure in the
weld
> > zone, this is generally a two part treatment one part being to "settle"
the
> > material from the stresses of welding and is around 90deg C, the second
> > stage is to artificially age the material and is at a higher temperature
and
> > for a short period. 6061 tubing as commonly used for bicycle manufacture
> > requires Solution heattreatment whereby the frame is heated to a point
just
> > below the 'melting' point of the alloy and then Quenched in a
water/glycol
> > mix to achieve the T6 temper. This process can distort the frame
resulting
> > in the alignment being preformed after heattreatment placing further
> > stresses on the frame. 7005 T6 frames are aligned prior to post weld
> > treatment placing less direct stress on the finished heattreated
structure.
>
> Umm....
>
> Are you sure what you describe for T6 is correct? While solid solution
> treatment of 6061 does increase its strength (this treatment results in
> a drop of strength for most of the other alloys), it certainly doesn't
> give it the highest strength. Age hardening treatment after SS heat
> treatment will increase 6061 strength above that of the SS heat treatment.
>
> Additionally, I doubt if the heat treatment stresses make much of a
> difference in the life of the frame, esp. after it has been properly
> aligned so that there is no preload during use.
>
> Most manufacturers, for obvious reasons, do not give details of their
> heat treatment procedure. Most of the stuff I've read in this thread so
> far seems to be more conjecture than anything else. Just as steel can be
> used in many form (annealed, quench and tempered, cold worked, etc.),
> aluminum alloys can be used in many forms from O (annealed) to H19
> (coldworked and fully heat treated for strength). The choice is up to
> the designer and his bean-counter. Can any of you folks really vouch for
> your source of info?
>
> Tho
Mark Hickey
>Mark Hickey wrote:
>>
>> Kristian Slot <Kli...@sporty.dk> wrote:
>>
>> ><br>email: ll...@deewal.com
>> ><br>web: <a href="http://www.deewal.com">http://www.deewal.com</a>
>> ><p>Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Kind of a shame that anyone posting in html format gets ignored by so
>> many of us (it's just impossible to read).
>
>It's actually quite readable if you have modern software. I use the
>excellen Netscape newsreader (it's FREE!) and it works fine.
Ick! I use NS for my mail tool and browser, but Free Agent is light
years ahead in terms of handling the volume of messages on the
wreck.bike newsgroups (it's FREE too!). I tried to use NS newsreader
on a laptop during a recent trip and gave up - just too slow to
navigate through the virtual reams of data.
>Back in the olden days, the insistence on ascii made good sense due to
>the limited bandwidth available.
>
>Given the current state of technology, it's a much less clear call
>today.
I guess maybe someday. But not today. ;-)
> I'd imagine that these arguments will seem very quaint in a couple of
>years as the technology and bandwidth capability advance, but that there
>will always be an ever-shrinking minority of ascii True Believers.
Well, it DID take until the Pentium for navigating around my Windoze
spreadsheets to get as quick as my old 10mhz 8088 ascii-based version.
I think the applications often outrun the hardware that's supposed to
run 'em.
>> We might be missing some good input.
>
>Yes, the site referred to looks pretty informative...I never knew this
>manufacturer's frames were "shot peed."
Is that a type of post-heat treatment quenching?
Mark Hickey
>
>"Sheldon Brown" <capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
>news:38C5969D...@sheldonbrown.com...
>> but that there
>> will always be an ever-shrinking minority of ascii True Believers.
>
>This isn't a religious issue. There has been much experimentation in
>several hundred years of publishing. We know what works, whether in print,
>or on a computer screen.
HTML newsreaders... the biopace rings of the computer industry.
;-)
Alex Abbas
less a crock? How well do they stand up against other frames?
Alex
Lloyd wrote:
>6061 is in all aspects a "lesser" alloy to 7005.
and later,
> CU92 is nearly exactly 6351.
>
Lloyd
In a materials point of veiw the 6061 tubeset would for the same strength
have thicker walls and therefore harsher to ride. If Fisher is using the
Easton 6061 tubeset it is nearly identical to the 7005 in all aspects of
wall thickness, you still have the 10-15% difference in inherent mechanical
properties of the alloys to overcome.
Personally i believe it would be a great bike going from their past frames,
ITS MORE THE DESIGN THAN THE MATERIALS USED !
Lloyd
--
Deewal Pty Ltd.
email: ll...@deewal.com
web: http://www.deewal.com
Alex Abbas <aab...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:38C6C137...@uclink4.berkeley.edu...
Webster :-)
more or
> less a crock? How well do they stand up against other frames?
>
Manufactures are always going to say that their top of the line frames are
the best. You just have to take it as fact that there is alot of BS in the
bike industry and that just about all of the bike manufactures do it.
You can get better than the Fisher frame. Not to say that there is anything
wrong with it, infact I own a supercaliber 2000 frame. It is light and felt
nice and stiff and resposive.
It is a *light* frame though, unfortunatly I found it a bit too light for me
:(
I've broken two fishers now just under the downtube gusset (first was an old
big sur). I'm not saying that this is a particularly bad thing though, I
break quite a bit of stuff.
--
-Tom Webster.. t.h.web...@student.lboro.ac.uk
Lloyd
Kristian Slot <Kli...@sporty.dk> wrote in message news:38C7E8F3...@sporty.dk...One more time: