Upgrading Campy 6 speed to 7 speed
Jason Spaceman
drivetrain on it, with old school friction shifters, etc. He asked me
whether it was possible to upgrade to a 7 speed Campy drivetrain. Not
knowing much about Campagnolo, and older equipment in general, I turn
to you, the learned folks of rbt.
Would it just be a matter of putting a 7 speed cassette on the rear
wheel and adjusting the rear derailleur so that it "sees" the extra
cog? Would he also have to upgrade to a narrower chain?
Thanks.
J. Spaceman
thirty-six
I think it will be more likely a freewheel not a cassette unit. If it
is a 'standard width' freewheel, he will need a compact5 spaced 7speed
to fit and there should be little if any trouble. It's a simple
matter of removing the old freewheel and installing the new with the
correct tools. If it is a compact 6 speed freewheel then the axle
will need lengthening on the right (may require new axle if a quick
release model but some can be 'stretched') and fitting of a compact
7. The axle slots will require parting to allow for the slightly
longer axle and can be done so as to be permanent.
Narrower chains are not an upgrade. It is unlikely that the new chain
will be any different to the one in use.
Chalo
It would be a simple, comparatively brainless operation (just as you
describe) if his hub has enough drive side spacing to accommodate a 7-
speed freewheel.
But it may not be so simple. Some axle spacing might have to be
transferred from the left to the right, or added to the right and the
frame widened to fit the new spacing. (If his existing spacing is
120mm, he should widen the frame. If it's at least 126mm, then
rearranging the axle will do the job.) In either case, the rear wheel
must be redished to center the rim over the axle locknuts.
If your friend's chain is the original one, or of the flat-sided old
style of bushed chain, then it might not work with a 7-speed cluster.
But if his chain has been replaced within the last 20 years, chances
are the replacement is compatible with 7-speed. Any shaping on the
outside or beveling on the inside of the chain sideplates is an
indication that his chain should work fine with 7-speed.
Chalo
AMuzi
pointless.
If he wants seven, get a seven freewheel and chain with
possibly a slight change in axle spacing. (n.b. he will not
be 7/6 faster for having 'more speeds') His present changer
will shift it as well as it shifts six now.
If he wants modern Ten gearing, it's a hub, cassette, rear
wheel build, rear changer, shifters with cable set and 10 chain.
Unless he has a lot of obsolete equipment handy at little or
no cost or unless it's a 'hang on the wall' restoration,
there's no defense for building a new seven or eight machine
today. Even Nine are not much cheaper than Ten at this
point. Save $10 on a chain, everything else costs the same.
A friction seven Shimano cassette may be an interim solution
but again more suffering than you might expect (frame align,
build wheel, new chain) for so little difference (similar
friction shift performance)
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
dusto...@mac.com
wrote:
Some older bikes had something of a domed inner chainstay end proximal
to the RH dropout such that Ultra 6 or 7 outer cogs didn't have enough
clearance to turn when the QR was tightened.
To tell the truth, I don't remember particulars of the problem I had
(120mm OLD, or 126) but if there's a little bit of RH axle end
sticking out past the outer face of the last (smallest) cog once the
freewheel is tightened on, you should be good to go as far as the
wheel itself goes.
The experts here can tell you how much more room you might need for a
seventh cog; a quick look will show you if you're already about out of
room.
BTW, you say "Campagnolo drivetrain" but what actual brand of
freewheel-- or cassette?-- is planned for the switch?
--D-y
AMuzi
>> I have a co-worker who rides an older bike with a Campagnolo 6 speed
>> drivetrain on it, with old school friction shifters, etc. He asked me
>> whether it was possible to upgrade to a 7 speed Campy drivetrain. Not
>> knowing much about Campagnolo, and older equipment in general, I turn
>> to you, the learned folks of rbt.
>> Would it just be a matter of putting a 7 speed cassette on the rear
>> wheel and adjusting the rear derailleur so that it "sees" the extra
>> cog? Would he also have to upgrade to a narrower chain?
dusto...@mac.com wrote:
> Some older bikes had something of a domed inner chainstay end proximal
> to the RH dropout such that Ultra 6 or 7 outer cogs didn't have enough
> clearance to turn when the QR was tightened.
> To tell the truth, I don't remember particulars of the problem I had
> (120mm OLD, or 126) but if there's a little bit of RH axle end
> sticking out past the outer face of the last (smallest) cog once the
> freewheel is tightened on, you should be good to go as far as the
> wheel itself goes.
>
> The experts here can tell you how much more room you might need for a
> seventh cog; a quick look will show you if you're already about out of
> room.
>
> BTW, you say "Campagnolo drivetrain" but what actual brand of
> freewheel-- or cassette?-- is planned for the switch?
Good points but there are subtleties such as chainstay/
seatstay diameter and finish, frame end length and style,
brand/model of freewheel and whether the last cog is 13, 14
or 15 teeth. Aside from effective axle (OLD) length, small
impediments may arise when swapping a seven freewheel into a
six system.
Ideally (Japanese not too high end late seventies bike) just
screw on the seven and go. With a 1982 Colnago or Bianchi,
not so much.
Chalo
>
> Unless he has a lot of obsolete equipment handy at little or
> no cost or unless it's a 'hang on the wall' restoration,
> there's no defense for building a new seven or eight machine
> today. Even Nine are not much cheaper than Ten at this
> point. Save $10 on a chain, everything else costs the same.
Ten-speed seriously limits range of gearing for those who are
unwilling to build their own sprocket stacks from nine-speed parts.
And ten-speed shifters for normal handlebars are very uncommon. This
sort of pricing is irrational and unacceptable just to fulfill what
should be the main purpose-- widening overall range-- of adding gears
to the cluster:
http://www.ebikestop.com/sram_xx_11_36_10_speed_cassette-FW6110.php
$328 for a stack of sprockets. What could they be thinking?
Seven-speed is still warranted because generally available eight- and
nine-speed freewheels are pretty bad. ($15 for a Shimano freewheel at
the LBS is a pretty good reason, too.) Eight-speed is probably the
most economical, well-supported and cost-effective kind of cassette
system, and it's noticeably more fault-tolerant than nine or ten.
(How's that for hyphen-laden?)
I think it's nine- and ten- and eleven-speed systems that are
difficult to justify on their merits and costs. Even six-speed makes
more sense within my understanding of good sense.
> A friction seven Shimano cassette may be an interim solution
> but again more suffering than you might expect (frame align,
> build wheel, new chain) for so little difference (similar
> friction shift performance)
In my experience at work, just installing a Hyperglide freewheel and
indexable chain on a bike that previously had a square tooth freewheel
and flat plate chain makes a big improvement in shifting. The old
stuff makes more satisfying clunks upon falling into gear, but it's
harder and slower to shift and requires more overshoot and
correction.
Chalo
AMuzi
We shifted terms somewhere but I don't disagree.
OP suggested Campagnolo, where 8 cassette hubs and cassettes
are painful to support (Campagnolo didn't do CS-7). I did
suggest converting to a Shimano Seven cassette system as an
alternate but, in Campagnolo, Ten is ubiquitous, not all
that expensive and quite standard for ten years now. And a
selection of reasonably priced aftermarket cassettes, odd
items as you note notwithstanding.
thirty-six
The Shimano chain and long lay derailler cable housing make the
difference, straight teeth and clunky mechanisms will then work
quickly with the satisfying clunk without needing to overshift. Any
paralellogram type mechanism will work well as long as the chainring
difference is not too large.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > AMuzi wrote:
> >>
> >> Unless he has a lot of obsolete equipment handy at little or
> >> no cost or unless it's a 'hang on the wall' restoration,
> >> there's no defense for building a new seven or eight machine
> >> today. Even Nine are not much cheaper than Ten at this
> >> point. Save $10 on a chain, everything else costs the same.
> >
> > Ten-speed seriously limits range of gearing for those who are
> > unwilling to build their own sprocket stacks from nine-speed parts.
> > And ten-speed shifters for normal handlebars are very uncommon.
> > Seven-speed is still warranted because generally available eight- and
> > nine-speed freewheels are pretty bad. ($15 for a Shimano freewheel at
> > the LBS is a pretty good reason, too.) Eight-speed is probably the
> > most economical, well-supported and cost-effective kind of cassette
> > system, and it's noticeably more fault-tolerant than nine or ten.
> > (How's that for hyphen-laden?)
> >
> > I think it's nine- and ten- and eleven-speed systems that are
> > difficult to justify on their merits and costs. Even six-speed makes
> > more sense within my understanding of good sense.
>
> We shifted terms somewhere but I don't disagree.
>
> OP suggested Campagnolo, where 8 cassette hubs and cassettes
> are painful to support (Campagnolo didn't do CS-7).
I assumed that the OP's stated conditions of 6-speed and friction
shifting meant the bike has a freewheel, which turn means not being
married to proprietary Campagnolo parts. So why would you stay? It's
an abusive marriage anyway.
> I did
> suggest converting to a Shimano Seven cassette system as an
> alternate but, in Campagnolo, Ten is ubiquitous, not all
> that expensive and quite standard for ten years now.
I was under the impression that ten-speed cassettes topped out at
something silly like 27 teeth. I just now learned that IRD makes
bigger ten-speed clusters, but at $160 retail those are not economical
even if they're half what SRAM's cost. I still haven't found any
Campagnolo ten-speed cassettes in non-sporting sizes.
Given that the single best reason for more sprockets in the stack is
to widen overall range, I don't understand why it took so long for
touring sized ten-speed clusters to appear, nor why the existing wide
range ten-speed options are so overpriced.
> And a
> selection of reasonably priced aftermarket cassettes, odd
> items as you note notwithstanding.
Even the most aggressive online discounters think ten-speed Campy
cassettes start at $60, seven-speed Shimano cassettes from $15. To me
that sounds like 43% more sprockets for 300% more money. I've bought
some nice bike parts in my day, but I've never spent more than $60 on
one bike's worth of sprockets (full retail price on current model 9-
speed at that time).
It's probably fair to call that "reasonably priced" in Campy Land, but
that's one of the reasons I've never lived there.
Chalo
semi-ambivalent
> (n.b. he will not be 7/6 faster for having 'more speeds')
But the Schwinn guy told me...
sa
Mark J.
My experience back in the 80's swapping a 6-speed ATOM for a 7-speed
SunTour "ultra" freewheel was that while SunTour advertised their
ultra-7 as having the same width as a regular-6, it was not /quite/
true. I had to move one washer to the drive side to get the extra space
needed.
Amid the discussion, the cheap point has /almost/ been submerged here -
just get a 7-speed freewheel and give it a try. Ebay is your friend.
Derailleur should work, shift levers should work - my Campy Nuovo Record
did. As someone said, if the chain is less than 20 years old, it should
work (or a cheap purchase). If the spacing is a problem, it's an
afternoon's work (and cheating by not re-dishing the rear wheel for a
1mm spacing change probably won't hurt either). If the freewheel has
ramps cut in it, shifting will improve dramatically.
PS - Andy, did you mean to say that Campy didn't have 7-speed cassettes?
I see Campy 7-sp stuff on Ebay, thought it was cassette, but I haven't
looked closely.
Chalo - Campy 10s cassettes go to 29. The price is annoying, true.
When I converted my tandem to cassette/index last spring, it didn't seem
worthwhile to stop at 9, though.
Mark J.
Dan O
> Jason Spaceman wrote:
> > I have a co-worker who rides an older bike with a Campagnolo 6 speed
> > drivetrain on it, with old school friction shifters, etc. He asked me
> > whether it was possible to upgrade to a 7 speed Campy drivetrain. Not
> > knowing much about Campagnolo, and older equipment in general, I turn
> > to you, the learned folks of rbt.
>
> > Would it just be a matter of putting a 7 speed cassette on the rear
> > wheel and adjusting the rear derailleur so that it "sees" the extra
> > cog? Would he also have to upgrade to a narrower chain?
>
> pointless.
>
No I hablo Campy, and absolutely defer to better knowledge in the
spectrum of possibilities, but my own Shimano upgrade from 6-speed,
14-28, to 7-speed, 13-24, gave me a tremendously more useful gear
complement. (YMMV)
Tom Sherman °_°
> [...] Eight-speed is probably the
> most economical, well-supported and cost-effective kind of cassette
Indeed, 8-speed is best for MTBs for this reason.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
8-Speed 1999 Trek 6000
russell...@yahoo.com
Campagnolo makes a 13-29 10 speed cassette. With 9 speed Campagnolo
make/made a 13-28 and 14-28.
Complaining about Campagnolo not making cassettes with 34 teeth or
some such silly thing is pointless. People who ride those things are
not the market for Campagnolo. Campagnolo serves the racer, wanna be
racer, racer poser market. Not the mountain bike, hybrid bike,
grandma ride to the store bike markets. Others sell products to those
people. If you complained about Ferrari and Porsche not making a
pickup truck it would be just as irrelevant.
$28 for a Campagnolo Mirage 10 speed cassette. Finding Campagnolo 10
speed cassettes for less than $60 is very easy.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26075
>
> Given that the single best reason for more sprockets in the stack is
> to widen overall range, I don't understand why it took so long for
> touring sized ten-speed clusters to appear, nor why the existing wide
> range ten-speed options are so overpriced.
>
> > And a
> > selection of reasonably priced aftermarket cassettes, odd
> > items as you note notwithstanding.
>
> Even the most aggressive online discounters think ten-speed Campy
> cassettes start at $60, seven-speed Shimano cassettes from $15. To me
> that sounds like 43% more sprockets for 300% more money. I've bought
> some nice bike parts in my day, but I've never spent more than $60 on
> one bike's worth of sprockets (full retail price on current model 9-
> speed at that time).
>
> It's probably fair to call that "reasonably priced" in Campy Land, but
> that's one of the reasons I've never lived there.
>
> Chalo- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
JG
on a road bike is low enough for pretty much everyone...
Aside from durability and precision issues, 10's, because of the
limited overlap even a compact crank can give, really only add single
gears at the low end.
AMuzi
"if you complained about Ferrari and Porsche not making a
pickup truck ..."
Humans are endlessly creative:
http://jalopnik.com/5172534/custom-1969-ferrari-micro-kei-pickup-could-fit-in-your-pocket
http://993c4s.com/cars/porsche-928/porsche-928-gts-pickup-truck/
Tom Sherman °_°
> [...]
> http://993c4s.com/cars/porsche-928/porsche-928-gts-pickup-truck/
>
I saw a Porsche Nine-Two-Eight with the roof cut off in Madison [1]. Not
a convertible conversion, but a plain hacking.
[1] Probably about 1995 or 1996.
Chalo
>
> Actually, Campy does make road triples, and a 30x29 gives a 28" which
> on a road bike is low enough for pretty much everyone...
You may or may not keep it in mind, but I do: Front derailleurs are
janky pieces of crap and make chainguards and chain cases tough to
implement. If you can get the overall range you need from just the
rear cluster, you're immeasurably better off. This assumes chainstays
long enough to provide acceptable chainline across the width of the
cluster.
> Aside from durability and precision issues, 10's, because of the
> limited overlap even a compact crank can give, really only add single
> gears at the low end.
If it didn't cost $328, SRAM's new 11-36 ten-speed cluster would
represent an unprecedented new tool for practical bicycles. (And if
there were an affordable shifter for normal handlebars, and if chains
didn't cost 2.5 times as much because they're 1mm narrower, and
if....)
But it does cost $328, and anyway there isn't an affordable shifter
for normal handlebars to shift it, and 10sp chains cost too much,
and....
Chalo
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > I was under the impression that ten-speed cassettes topped out at
> > something silly like 27 teeth. I just now learned that IRD makes
> > bigger ten-speed clusters, but at $160 retail those are not economical
> > even if they're half what SRAM's cost. I still haven't found any
> > Campagnolo ten-speed cassettes in non-sporting sizes.
>
> Campagnolo makes a 13-29 10 speed cassette. With 9 speed Campagnolo
> make/made a 13-28 and 14-28.
>
> Complaining about Campagnolo not making cassettes with 34 teeth or
> some such silly thing is pointless. People who ride those things are
> not the market for Campagnolo. Campagnolo serves the racer, wanna be
> racer, racer poser market. Not the mountain bike, hybrid bike,
> grandma ride to the store bike markets. Others sell products to those
> people.
Shimano serves non-poseur markets, but they still don't make 10sp
cassettes that match, let alone improve upon, the gearing range of
their 7-, 8-, and 9-speed cassettes.
Campagnolo has repeatedly entered the touring and MTB markets, and
they've repeatedly had their asses handed to them in those markets
because they seemingly can't figure out how to make tough, practical
products that don't suck.
Record hubs were OK, and you still see them in use on real non-racing,
non-poseur bikes. Headsets too, sometimes. I put a Campy Euclid U-
brake on my wife's chopper, because it was just the right thing for a
chopper. Other than that? Not much.
Chalo
Tom Sherman °_°
> [...]I put a Campy Euclid U-
> brake on my wife's chopper, because it was just the right thing for a
But will the Euclid brake stop one of these
<http://www.thetractorcompany.com/offhighway/1995%20R65/R65C-75207-05.jpg>?
AMuzi
> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> [...]
>> http://993c4s.com/cars/porsche-928/porsche-928-gts-pickup-truck/
>>
>
> I saw a Porsche Nine-Two-Eight with the roof cut off in Madison [1]. Not
> a convertible conversion, but a plain hacking.
>
> [1] Probably about 1995 or 1996.
>
Oh, like YOU never made a one-summer convertible with a sawzall?
dusto...@mac.com
> Ideally (Japanese not too high end late seventies bike) just
> screw on the seven and go. With a 1982 Colnago or Bianchi,
> not so much.
I'm pretty sure my problem was indeed with a late-60's/early 70's (I
bought it used in '72) "Capri" bike that was Italian and Columbus-
stickered, and 120mm OLD, or it might have been with a mid-70's
Maserati that was probably 120mm.
I still have a late 70's Holdsworth Super Mistral touring frame, also
120 OLD, that looks like it would have plenty of room for a 7sp cogset
if it were re-spaced, as the "dome" on the inner stay ends well short
of where a cog would live, at least by eyeball.
--D-y
AMuzi
Yep, too bad it can't be done:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/ERGOHOL2.JPG
http://www.yellowjersey.org/TREKRBLD.JPG
http://www.yellowjersey.org/JEUNET.JPG
http://www.yellowjersey.org/ERGOTOUR.JPG
Even on your size bike
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd_kw2.jpg
AMuzi
> Chalo Colina wrote:
>> [...]I put a Campy Euclid U-
>> brake on my wife's chopper, because it was just the right thing for a
>> chopper.[...]
>
> But will the Euclid brake stop one of these
> <http://www.thetractorcompany.com/offhighway/1995%20R65/R65C-75207-05.jpg>?
>
Nice, but the tire color doesn't match
Tom Sherman °_°
> Tom Sherman �_� wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> http://993c4s.com/cars/porsche-928/porsche-928-gts-pickup-truck/
>>>
>>
>> I saw a Porsche Nine-Two-Eight with the roof cut off in Madison [1].
>> Not a convertible conversion, but a plain hacking.
>>
>> [1] Probably about 1995 or 1996.
>>
>
> Oh, like YOU never made a one-summer convertible with a sawzall?
>
Said cropped 928 was spotted outside the Watts Road Woodman's liquor store.
Tom Sherman °_°
> Tom Sherman �_� wrote:
>> Chalo Colina wrote:
>>> [...]I put a Campy Euclid U-
>>> brake on my wife's chopper, because it was just the right thing for a
>>> chopper.[...]
>>
>> But will the Euclid brake stop one of these
>> <http://www.thetractorcompany.com/offhighway/1995%20R65/R65C-75207-05.jpg>?
>>
>>
>
> Nice, but the tire color doesn't match
>