Cycling in NYC

[AMuzi]

https://nypost.com/2021/09/20/keith-wright-allegedly-fled-after-opening-door-into-nyc-cyclist/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 9:39:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> https://nypost.com/2021/09/20/keith-wright-allegedly-fled-after-opening-door-into-nyc-cyclist/

You really have no defense against this sort of thing except to ride in the traffic lane and we know the result of that,

[AMuzi]

Result?
Arriving on time or not getting doored or both?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/20/2021 1:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/20/2021 11:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 9:39:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://nypost.com/2021/09/20/keith-wright-allegedly-fled-after-opening-door-into-nyc-cyclist/
>>>
>>
>> You really have no defense against this sort of thing except to ride
>> in the traffic lane and we know the result of that,
>>
>
> Result?
> Arriving on time or not getting doored or both?

In my long experience, both. I've had doors pop open that would have
caught me if I were not riding lane center.

Don't ride in the door zone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 10:06:55 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/20/2021 11:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 9:39:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> https://nypost.com/2021/09/20/keith-wright-allegedly-fled-after-opening-door-into-nyc-cyclist/
> >
> > You really have no defense against this sort of thing except to ride in the traffic lane and we know the result of that,
> >
> Result?
> Arriving on time or not getting doored or both?

How about getting run down rather than doored. Take your choice.

[Roger Merriman]

One of the reasons *good* cycle lanes work, had a friend who was doored in
traffic as they opened the door into the slip road into said friend which
mashed up his arm.

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

One pretty prominent bike advocate in the U.S. has said "99% of bike
lanes give the rest a bad name." I think doorings are one of the reasons
he has in mind.

Where on-street parking is permitted, it's very rare to see a bike lane
that would not increase the hazard from a suddenly opening car door. Any
sort of stripe between the general purpose traffic lane and a bike lane
influences bicyclists to ride closer to the parked car or the curb. It
also influences motorists to ride closer to the cyclist, because they
assume the cyclist will never cross that white line.

This means the cyclist is less likely to ride clear of the door zone;
and staying out of the door zone is the only reliable way of avoiding
getting doored.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

+1

[Tom Kunich]

I have nearly been doored ONCE since I returned to the living. I then knew to watch for them. Being hit from behind is FAR more dangerous and the statistics show that. Why would you be so afraid of something that you have the ability to watch for in favor of something you don't?

[Frank Krygowski]

I have been nearly doored zero times in my life, because I don't ride in
the door zone. I have had car doors pop open next to me, though, that
would have caught me if I rode as you seem to claim.

The statistics on dooring are pretty faulty, for the following reason:
It's normal for doorings to not be officially recorded. Ohio is typical
in that it deliberately does not keep records of them. Why? Because Ohio
(like most states) counts car-bike collisions only if they are between
"vehicles in transport," and the car whose door just opened in front of
a cyclist is parked, not "in transport." I know a competent and
effective cycling advocate who has tried mightily to get that rule
changed, but so far has failed.

And your personal ability to avoid doorings by "watching" is probably as
exaggerated as your other purported abilities. How fast do you ride past
parked cars? Human reaction time and the risk of pitchover put severe
limits on yourstopping distance. Even if you were going just 15 mph
you'd need to spot the door opening when you're about 30 feet back.

As for being run down from behind: Well, I've been riding as an avid
adult for nearly 50 years. So far that hasn't happened. Should I start
getting worried now? Really?

Grow a pair, Tom. Take the lane.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, grow a brain. IN the lane someone opening the door of a Chevy Camaro could door you since the door is almost twice the normal length. I don't believe that you ride in the middle of the car lane. That would end in your early demise which certainly wouldn't cause any melancholy here.

[Frank Krygowski]

I ride in the general purpose lane. (It's not a "car lane," Tom.) I
usually ride near the center, because almost all lanes are too narrow to
safely share.

(If your tires are one foot from the edge, your left shoulder is about
two feet from the edge. Three feet passing clearance means the right
mirror of the car starts at five feet. Typical small cars are 6.5 feet
wide, so even a 12 foot lane can barely contain even a small car. That
makes my lane position specifically legal under the laws of my state and
many others.)

The door zone is much wider than most people think. See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPA-ZcYGT94

You may not believe I ride where I do, but you claim to believe Trump
won the election, COVID isn't real and the moon is made of green cheese.
Your beliefs have little to do with reality.

Grow a pair, Tom. Use your legal right to the road.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I don't know what situation you're imagining, but riding lane center on downtown streets is SOP for me, with some exceptions. Coming into work this morning, I was lane center in the center lane. https://tinyurl.com/fz64kfdt I also got into the lane on this part of the commute because it was wet and slippery in the bike lane, and I was travelling the speed of traffic. https://tinyurl.com/62bdcv3z Commuting home over the hills means you're riding lane center because just being in the lane puts you in the center. https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/547ca261e4b06290cab8231a/1433127056026-3K1TRKZH17E6EDJ46YM0/ronde-pdx
That hill is pretty open, its more like this for much of the West Hills. https://tinyurl.com/2v5jvd84 It's driveway size roads, and I don't know where one could be but in the lane. I encountered two Amazon trucks trying to pass each other right here: https://tinyurl.com/r4w6rh29 They had to do a lot of backing-up, and it took me forever to get to work. That's a goat-road option for the hilly commute.

There are UVC rules that generally work -- AFRAP is the rule, and the exceptions are when you're traveling the speed of traffic or it is unsafe to be AFRAP, or passing in the lane would be unsafe (subject to the impeding statute). Riding lane center should not be a prescription for every situation, but it is the safer option in many situations.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, neither you nor the mouth would ride with me in the San Francisco bay area. If you take a lane that you do not need to take you are giving up your life. One out of twenty people will run you down with the claim that "he came out of nowhere". If there is a bike lane you haven't the slightest legal response to that.

[jbeattie]

I was born and raised in the south Bay Area and commuted by bike to work and/or school starting in the fifth grade up to age 27 when I moved to PDX. I didn't even own a car until age 25. I commuted all over, and because of shoulder widths, I generally rode AFRAP, but I would get in the lane if there was a potential for dooring -- or to be seen if necessary, or if there were hazards, etc. I was hit a half-dozen times, mostly minor but a couple more serious (stitches and ambulance rides). All involved cars entering and exiting traffic and none was getting mowed down from behind.

A few decades ago, I rode many of the same roads as you -- at least the weekend-ride roads (and not usually as far north). I was the first finisher (and not the first starter) on the Mt Hamilton challenge in '82(?) and did all the same centuries, road races around you, e.g. Tassajara RR, etc. I raced for years with the SJBC and trained all over mostly the SCV. I've ridden from the GG Bridge to SJ on the El Camino (too lazy to go the coast, finishing up a tour). Downtown SF is pretty crazy, but the SF Bay Area is like a lot of other urban areas. I admit, though, that there are some areas in Oakland and south SF that made me scared to be on a bike -- but I was more worried about getting shot than hit.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/28/2021 1:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 9:42:17 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 9:20:02 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 8:09:08 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 6:32:35 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Grow a pair, Tom. Take the lane.
>>>> Frank, grow a brain. IN the lane someone opening the door of a Chevy Camaro could door you since the door is almost twice the normal length. I don't believe that you ride in the middle of the car lane. That would end in your early demise which certainly wouldn't cause any melancholy here.

>>> I don't know what situation you're imagining, but riding lane center on downtown streets is SOP for me, with some exceptions. ...

>>>
>>> There are UVC rules that generally work -- AFRAP is the rule, and the exceptions are when you're traveling the speed of traffic or it is unsafe to be AFRAP, or passing in the lane would be unsafe (subject to the impeding statute). Riding lane center should not be a prescription for every situation, but it is the safer option in many situations.

One slight quibble: Your "... when it is unsafe to be AFRAP ..." (that
is, As Far Right As Practicable) is a bit redundant. If it's not safe to
be at far right, it's by definition not "practicable." That's when the
law says you can move farther left.

>> Jay, neither you nor the mouth would ride with me in the San Francisco bay area.

Tom is so manly! (But still too timid to take the lane.)

> I was born and raised in the south Bay Area and commuted by bike to work and/or school starting in the fifth grade up to age 27 when I moved to PDX. I didn't even own a car until age 25. I commuted all over, and because of shoulder widths, I generally rode AFRAP, but I would get in the lane if there was a potential for dooring -- or to be seen if necessary, or if there were hazards, etc. I was hit a half-dozen times, mostly minor but a couple more serious (stitches and ambulance rides). All involved cars entering and exiting traffic and none was getting mowed down from behind.

That's a key point. People riding at the lane's edge are far less
visible to many motorists, especially those preparing to travel across
your path by pulling out, turning left, etc.

As I've mentioned, my nearest car-bike crash miss was from a left cross.
The motorist obviously didn't see me, and I decided then that it was
because I had been riding too far right. I stopped riding that way and
haven't had a problem since.

Tom's "fear from the rear" is greatly exaggerated.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Will you stop with the bull shite Jay? When you were living here as a kid the south bay was almost empty. Even Silicon Valley was barely starting. It was safe to go anywhere by bike. Just try that now, I dare you. Many of the surface roads are now 5 lanes in both directions and with 55 mph speed limits that are entirely ignored.

[jbeattie]

Nobody is telling you to ride lane center on a highway. This is not rocket science. There are rules that apply to every road, like avoid riding in the door zone. And when I left permanently, Silicon Valley was well established, and traffic was already bad.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank just did. I'm not manly enough to take the lane according to him. Someone that rides on farm roads with two cars per hour passing him is telling other people how to ride in a busy city, The man is reality challenged.

[Roger Merriman]

The 3rd way is route choices, ie using parks and cut though roads/paths and
what not.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, you can see what Frank writes. Not only does he think 5 speed freewheels and bar end shifters are as good as you should ever want. He rides a touring bike with bags on it out in the middle of nowhere and is telling ME, who rides 10 times as much as he does, how I should ride in busy city traffic. There is clearly something really wrong with this guy.

[Roger Merriman]

I’m not going there you both need to get a room frankly!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

I often take the lane when riding on the 40,000 vehicle per day four
lane that my residential street intersects.

I share a lane when it's safe to do so. But when I find myself in a 10
foot lane with 55 mph traffic, do you expect me to ride the fog line
while trucks skim by inches from my elbow? How is that sensible?

Years ago, our best friends related this: They were on a vacation in New
York's Finger Lakes region. They were on their tandem on a narrow 55 mph
road, riding right at the road's edge, and they were terrified. Cars
were skimming by literally inches away, but there were no alternate
routes they could use.

Our friend in the captain seat said to his wife, the stoker, "Frank says
we should take the lane. Do you want me to try it?" His wife said yes,
they had to; so when he had a chance he moved to lane center.

He said the ride was absolutely transformed. Motorists behind them
slowed down and waited until there was clear space for passing. Nobody
honked their horns, everybody gave several feet of passing clearance,
and our friends felt tremendously safer.

You are not required to risk your life to avoid delaying a motorist.
Quit whining, quit being timid. If a lane is too narrow to safely share,
grow a pair and take the lane.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

That can sometimes work. And I've always been fond of finding
cut-through paths, shortcuts, more pleasant roads and the like.

But there are many places where those alternatives simply don't exist,
and many destinations one can reach only by normal roads. For those, it
pays to learn to ride competently on the road.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Yes, Frank, and you inflate pink balloons while you're at it.

[Roger Merriman]

I find surprising amount of this stuff, sometimes it’s well hidden in plain
sight!

This said I’m not a fan of the gutter, assertive but calm seems to cope
well with most stuff, though I do filter do so with caution!

Roger Merriman