If this is even half-true...

[Andre Jute]

If this is even half-true, big pharma bosses will be swinging from lampposts:

If the Vaccine Is So Great, Why Are So Many People Dropping Dead?
https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2021/12/12/if-the-vaccine-is-so-great-why-are-so-many-people-dropping-dead-heart-attacks-skyrocket-young-children-suffer-heart-problems-soccer-players-drop-on-fields-icus-overwhelmed-from-coast-to-coast-n2600456

Andre Jute
A la lanterne!

[Jeff Liebermann]

Too bad the article didn't provide any sources for its heart attack
data, which is useful for substantiating the authors claims.

Perhaps it's because the data just shows a trend toward increased
heart attacks?
"Heart Disease and Stroke Statistics 2021 (American Heart Assoc)"
<https://www.heart.org/-/media/phd-files-2/science-news/2/2021-heart-and-stroke-stat-update/2021_heart_disease_and_stroke_statistics_update_whats_new.pdf>
Note that the data and graphs do NOT include 2020 and 2021, but do
show a trend towards increased heart related fatalities.

Here's another possibility:
"US Deaths From Heart Disease and Diabetes Climbed Amid COVID"
<https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-06-09/us-deaths-from-heart-disease-and-diabetes-climbed-amid-covid>
The U.S. saw remarkable increases in the death rates
for heart disease, diabetes and some other common
killers in 2020, and experts believe a big reason may
be that many people with dangerous symptoms made the
lethal mistake of staying away from the hospital for
fear of catching the coronavirus.

However, for purposes of this discussion, I'll assume that the likely
cause of an increase in heart attack deaths is the most politically
expedient explanation and which sells the most books for the author.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tom Kunich]

Last month more deaths were attributed to the boosters than covid even discounting that covid is a hoax.

Here us my usual discussion: I show them the CDC data that shows NO elevated respiratory deaths for the last two years. Then I show them that this is the CDC data and not some flat earth society. Their reaction? "What do you know?" These are the people who have been completely hypnotized by the left. These are the people willing to throw away everything they worked their entire lives for to support people who mean them the worst lives possible. https://humansarefree.com/2021/12/this-is-how-we-win.html

[Tom Kunich]

It doesn't seem the least bit odd that the increased heart attacks are in the most vaccinated areas does it? https://www.fastrope.com/excess-deaths-exploding-despite-mass-vaccination/

[AMuzi]

The Return Of Lysenko.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:44:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>It doesn't seem the least bit odd that the increased heart attacks are in the most vaccinated areas does it? https://www.fastrope.com/excess-deaths-exploding-despite-mass-vaccination/

The fastrope.com article cites VAERS as it's source of data:
<https://www.fastrope.com/jab-data/>
<https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html>
VAERS is a crowd sources database, where anyone can contribute their
"information" without verification. From the above page:
The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)
database contains information on unverified reports
of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or
symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed
vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyone and can
be submitted electronically at www.vaers.hhs.gov.

From the disclaimer on the same page:
VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if
a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event
or illness. The reports may contain information that
is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable.

Garbage in. Amazing revelations out. To make sure that what you read
is garbage, the disclaimer warns that the public only gets to see the
crowd sourced data:
VAERS data available to the public include only the
initial report data to VAERS. Updated data which
contains data from medical records and corrections
reported during follow up are used by the government
for analysis. However, for numerous reasons including
data consistency, these amended data are not available
to the public.

Take a look at the Covid-19 Vaccine Deaths graph at the top of the
page:
<https://www.fastrope.com/jab-data/>
Notice the almost perfect straight line increase. Ever see data
that's so perfect? I have, but only in dry lab type of experiments
and fabricated data. Real data is never so perfect. My guess(tm) is
someone is contriving a fixed number of deaths and submitting the same
number of deaths to the VAERS database every week.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 2:09:19 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/12/2021 1:12 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > If this is even half-true, big pharma bosses will be swinging from lampposts:
> >
> > If the Vaccine Is So Great, Why Are So Many People Dropping Dead?
> > https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2021/12/12/if-the-vaccine-is-so-great-why-are-so-many-people-dropping-dead-heart-attacks-skyrocket-young-children-suffer-heart-problems-soccer-players-drop-on-fields-icus-overwhelmed-from-coast-to-coast-n2600456
> >
> > Andre Jute
> > A la lanterne!
> >
> The Return Of Lysenko.

When you can see that the most heavily vaccinated areas have the most "covbid-19" deaths and the least vaccinated have the least you would think that the Congress who has been bringing Fauci before them would ask questions about this. But for some reason I am beginning to wonder if both sides don't see this as a means of controlling a populace through fear.

[John B.]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:44:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

But Tommy, Thailand has no increased heart attacks and Singapore has
no increased heart attacks and while Thailand is only about 62%
vaccinated, Singapore, I read yesterday is about, 85% vaccinated.

So if your story has any basis in fact then why not here?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 7:32:58 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:12:04 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >If this is even half-true, big pharma bosses will be swinging from lampposts:
> >
> >If the Vaccine Is So Great, Why Are So Many People Dropping Dead?
> >https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2021/12/12/if-the-vaccine-is-so-great-why-are-so-many-people-dropping-dead-heart-attacks-skyrocket-young-children-suffer-heart-problems-soccer-players-drop-on-fields-icus-overwhelmed-from-coast-to-coast-n2600456
> Too bad the article didn't provide any sources for its heart attack
> data, which is useful for substantiating the authors claims.
>

> However, for purposes of this discussion, I'll assume that the likely
> cause of an increase in heart attack deaths is the most politically
> expedient explanation and which sells the most books for the author.
>

Damn right too. I wouldn't expect anything less from my friends, editors, publishers, publicists and other horny-handed sons of toil.

[John B.]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 14:26:18 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Ah, but you see, as Will Rogers once said, "It isn't what we don't
know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so."

(one assumes that he knew Tommy :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

As I previously posted:

"But Tommy, Thailand has no increased heart attacks and Singapore has
no increased heart attacks and while Thailand is only about 62%
vaccinated, Singapore, I read yesterday is about, 85% vaccinated.

So if your story has any basis in fact then why not here? "

So tell us Tommy, if your theory is correct how is it that us Asian
"Wogs" ain't dropping like fruit flies and you 'mericans are?

You don't suppose it is because y'all just ain't healthy?
https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/coronary-heart-disease/by-country/
Coronary Heart Disease
Death Rate Per 100,000
USA - 79.21

Thailand - 63.1
Singapore - 54.6
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

Ah, you poor wee man, that's been Tom's argument all along, that people are dying from the normal diseases -- obesity, heart disease, old age, typhoid, mad cow disease, black death, Spanish flu, being an asshole like Frank Krygowski, and it is all written down as from the Chinese Virus. I thought your job in the gang of slime, trying to leave a mark on Tom and failing ignominiously, was to grind his face in the facts, and now we discover that all along you've been secretly -- except the secret is out now -- been agreeing with Tom 101 percent.

Congratulations, Slow Johnny, on coming to your senses. It's taken you long enough.

Andre Jute
it's a great feeling bringing peace and cooperation to this world, especially in this season of goodwill to all except the enemies of society

[Frank Krygowski]

Right, Tom. Damn that Trump character for "fast tracking" this deadly vaccine! Damn him for getting vaccinated himself!
What sort of example was he setting for the maniacal right wing???

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

There's been a lot of disinformation but eventually serious
people do serious analyses:

https://denvergazette.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-colorado-s-costly-attempts-to-curb-covid/article_1747741e-440f-11ec-8ee6-2b35a9477e33.html

https://i2i.org/how-covid-lockdowns-destroy-small-businesses-and-aggravate-inequality/

The lack of correlation is blatant. However, I'm not sure
that, in a nation where most people rely on walk-around
telephone 'news', future policy makers will note these
disasters with a little humility, as they ought.

[sms]

On 12/12/2021 11:32 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:12:04 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> If this is even half-true, big pharma bosses will be swinging from lampposts:
>>
>> If the Vaccine Is So Great, Why Are So Many People Dropping Dead?
>> https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2021/12/12/if-the-vaccine-is-so-great-why-are-so-many-people-dropping-dead-heart-attacks-skyrocket-young-children-suffer-heart-problems-soccer-players-drop-on-fields-icus-overwhelmed-from-coast-to-coast-n2600456
>
> Too bad the article didn't provide any sources for its heart attack
> data, which is useful for substantiating the authors claims.

Bottom line is that it's not even half true, one-third true, one-quarter
true, ad infinitum.

Andre may be interested in A&W's new 3/9ths pound burger. It was
launched after the epic failure of A&W's 1/3 pound burger because too
many customers said they wouldn't buy an A&W 1/3 pound burger because
McDonald's offered a 1/4 pound burger at the same price and that 1/4 was
more than 1/3 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNqJQaf08E>.

[Lou Holtman]

Our government is looking for the right balance. It is difficult. We here don't want healthcare to get overloaded so that we can get in a situation that we have to choose who we will be treated in case of an emergency. We tried to loosen the measurements twice this year and yet again we are in a partial lock down because of an overloaded healthcare.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, I know that like all far left extremists you have no taste of facing reality but New York and Florida are approximately the same population

Here are numbers of ACTUAL body counts from these states.

New York ages 65-74

2019 = 17849
2020 = 22993
2021 = 21564 (last 5 weeks averaged)

29% increase 2019 to 2020
6.7% decrease between 2020 and 2021

Florida

2019 52256 Florida is the retirement state.
2020 62465
2021 66340

19% increase from 2019 to 2020 in the reportedly most dangerous age group.
6% increase from 2020 to 2021

What this shows for the totally brain dead is that NOTHING made one bit of difference. There was NO statistical difference between New York and Florida. There was a FLU outbreak that didn't kill a lot of people in 2020 in the from the 7th week and was gone by the 14th week. Otherwise ALL of the excess deaths were from circulatory diseases.

Why don't you tell me how much you know about medical R&D because you're so experienced with it?

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 4:35:54 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 7:32:58 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:12:04 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >If this is even half-true, big pharma bosses will be swinging from lampposts:
> > >
> > >If the Vaccine Is So Great, Why Are So Many People Dropping Dead?
> > >https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2021/12/12/if-the-vaccine-is-so-great-why-are-so-many-people-dropping-dead-heart-attacks-skyrocket-young-children-suffer-heart-problems-soccer-players-drop-on-fields-icus-overwhelmed-from-coast-to-coast-n2600456
> > Too bad the article didn't provide any sources for its heart attack
> > data, which is useful for substantiating the authors claims.
> >
> > However, for purposes of this discussion, I'll assume that the likely
> > cause of an increase in heart attack deaths is the most politically
> > expedient explanation and which sells the most books for the author.
> >
> Damn right too. I wouldn't expect anything less from my friends, editors, publishers, publicists and other horny-handed sons of toil.

Dumbshit Lieberman thinks that sitting on his sofa he can tell that the largest number of deaths which are clearly marked by the CDC are lies because he wills them so.

[Tom Kunich]

More clever misinformation from Frank. Is that any surprise? Why is it that the initial vaccines didn't cause blood clots which were mediated by impurities in the vaccines such as GRAPHENE? A one dimensional material that seeks itself and forms blockages in veins and arteries?

[Tom Kunich]

I have to agree with President Reagan that the government RARELY does anyone any good. They simply make a lot of noise. If you look at these long term studies of masks, you can see that as I said, there is no REAL statistical help from N95 surgeons masks and no detectable help from a regular paper or cloth mask. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFCYv0X4kf4 So for any government to demand people wear these things, is to do nothing but attempt to control their populace through fear.

Australia has become nothing more than a dictatorship in which absolute tyranny reins. You can expect this from ANY country that is give but half a chance. The numbers I showed to Leiberman shows that there has been no help from any of the vaccines that the elevated levels appearing in 2021 Florida were not from a lack of vaccinations but from the mass exodus of older people from New York to Florida.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/13/2021 8:58 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/12/2021 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Right, Tom. Damn that Trump character for "fast tracking" this deadly
>> vaccine! Damn him for getting vaccinated himself!
>> What sort of example was he setting for the maniacal right wing???
>

> There's been a lot of disinformation but eventually serious people do
> serious analyses:
>
> https://denvergazette.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-colorado-s-costly-attempts-to-curb-covid/article_1747741e-440f-11ec-8ee6-2b35a9477e33.html

Executive summary: We knew COVID responses were going to have some
negative consequences. They did. And poor people were impacted more than
wealthy people. IOW, the quantification provides no real surprises.

But questions arise:

Should the government have done nothing? Just let the disease run its
course? Places that dabbled in that strategy did no better.

In many places, health care was close to collapse even with the measures
taken. What would the health care system have looked like without any
government response?

For a rough analogy, think of Britain in, oh, 1940. There was a real
problem occurring. People were certainly suffering, and the suffering
was greater for some than for others. Should the government have taken
no action at all? There were some few pacifists who believed that, but
it was never a very popular opinion.


Back to the present: Since the wealthy suffered relatively little
impact* from this virus, should they not be taxed at a higher rate to
help those with lower income and more bad consequences?


* (I'm sure there was some suffering. "Buffy dearest! We can't possibly
be out of Brie! How will we get by??")

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom]

Thailand has very few mRNA vaccines. AIUI mRNA are the vaccines
implicated in heart issues such as myocarditis, pericarditis.

I can confirm I've had: AstraZeneca vaccine, Pfizer vaccine and Covid.
For me, the symptoms were pretty much the same for all 3. A day or two
flu like symptoms.

No heart attacks, blood clots or lasting effect on my health. I can
report that my knee has started playing up a bit, and I've had a
surprising number of punctures, I hold Covid responsible.

[AMuzi]

That last part is satire? or what?
You can't really advocate policy based on envy over equality
before the law. Or did you?

[Tom Kunich]

The greatest cost of this is going to be the end of the Democrat Party. They delighted in tyranny and now it is going to blow up in their faces.

[Frank Krygowski]

Wow.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Say Frank, time to get another booster. There is a new variant. It is Kragowski and is sure to kill you without the government stealing all of the money left in the USA.

[Frank Krygowski]

I advocate strongly progressive taxation, enough to pay for civilization
with much less disparity. It works better than our U.S. policies, in
dozens of other countries.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

In other words, you're nothing but the communist I've been saying all along - "I believe that everyone else but me should pay for a bigger government to commit yet more tyranny".

[AMuzi]

We already have the most upward-sloping rates of taxation of
any industrialized country ( some say 'progress'. meh.) and
you want to make it worse? Really?

I've linked the actual Treasury data in granular detail and
yet you persist. What's 'enough'? All?

[Tom Kunich]

Those who support communism think that they will somehow come out the winner no matter that every single case of communism has failed. That all of those successful countries were plunged into abject poverty. But you have to remember that without doubt, Frank exposed most of his students to this sort of twisted propaganda. Luckily, if they were successful they simply forgot every word he ever said and if they were unsuccessful, rather than blame an incompetent professor of engineering, they blamed capitalism. But with Frank having screamed communism at all of these successful people who the Democrats are now threatening to take everything from, we have a pretty good idea of why Frank is so afraid of guns.

[sms]

On 12/12/2021 5:34 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

In the U.S., on the surface it seems short-sighted for Republicans to be
lying about vaccinations at such a large scale.

Covid death rates are much higher in Republican areas of the U.S. due to
much lower vaccination rates. This may not matter much in areas that are
heavily Republican but it _will_ matter in places where elections can be
very close. Republicans now make up the largest share of unvaccinated
people in America, and unvaccinated people are 14 times as likely to die
from Covid.

Even Republican legislators that really do know the facts feel compelled
to suck up to low-information voters and promote a false narrative of
“natural immunity” as well as fake cures like ivermectin,
hydrochloroquine ,chloroquine, and alkaline structured silver. There are
even some people that have gotten Covid and recovered that _still_
refuse to get vaccinated, falsely believing that they now have immunity.

One reason I read, for the actions of people like Ted Cruz and Ron
DeSantis, is that even though they are well aware that they’re spreading
falsehoods, they’ve run the data and found that to have a chance in the
2024 Republican presidential primaries they must appeal to the
far-right, QAnon, racist, nut-case voters. Losing some of those
low-information voters to Covid is not a big concern to them.

[Frank Krygowski]

Enough to get American income and wealth disparity down to, say, the
level of Canada. Or perhaps to the average of western Europe. In most
ways, those places are doing much better than the U.S.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/13/2021 12:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Those who support communism think that they will somehow come out the winner no matter that every single case of communism has failed. That all of those successful countries were plunged into abject poverty. But you have to remember that without doubt, Frank exposed most of his students to this sort of twisted propaganda.

No, Tom, I taught principles and practices of engineering. Forces,
accelerations, work, power, stress, strain, mechanical devices, some
programming, manufacturing, sensors, robotics. Stuff like that.

The only societal discussions I remember occurred in Robotics Technology
class. I had the students address the problem of workers displaced by
robots. I frequently assigned a paper where the students would state
their position regarding that, and grading was based entirely on logic
and writing, not on political views.

I'll note, though, that in one robotics class, when I returned the
papers and made some comments, I said something like "I do believe that
good jobs are good for society. If there's less unemployment, there's
probably less crime."

One student expressed shock at that. He said "You're a damned liberal!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

How about envy rates on the top bracket of income tax of 98 per cent? Britain had those in the sixties, plus death duties that added up to more than 100 per cen. If the destroyers in the Donkey Party knew any history, they'd slaver at the jaw at such tax rates on the "rich". The Brain Drain was discussed in Parliament and the Cabinet Room, as the rest of us gleefully conducted staff raids in London because in New York there was over-employment in our industry. -- AJ

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 6:38:53 PM UTC, sms wrote:
>
> One reason I read, for the actions of people like Ted Cruz and Ron
> DeSantis, is that even though they are well aware that they’re spreading
> falsehoods, they’ve run the data and found that to have a chance in the
> 2024 Republican presidential primaries they must appeal to the
> far-right, QAnon, racist, nut-case voters. Losing some of those
> low-information voters to Covid is not a big concern to them.
>

You're crazier than Siamese loons tied together at the umbilical, Scharfie. -- AJ

[AMuzi]

You do not want to live where 'equality' means chopping the
heads off the tall ones.

You must have some passing familiarity with numbers, I assume.
https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/

High values among the top few skew averages even when we at
the other end are living better than elsewhere. Else why
would anyone immigrate? If it's so bad one might expect to
see swimmers braving sharks to travel from Miami to Cuba,
right? Or sneaking south across the Rio Grande.

https://www.axios.com/immigration-united-states-salary-education-445cabb8-51d0-478b-9e36-0e5dd6b1de3f.html

I'm also ready for anyone with a 'racism' argument. See link
above.

[Tom Kunich]

Don't worry Scharf - everyone knows you for the stupid fool you are.

[Tom Kunich]

On a good day Scharf can tell 20 absolutely preposterous lies without even blinking. He is like Fauci in that he is entirely incompetent but believes himself only barely less smart than Biden.

[Tom Kunich]

What is somewhat hilarious is that Frank lives and dies by the strength of a college degree. 78% of Indians have a degree and Frank looks down his nose at them like they were a skin disease.

[Radey Shouman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 12/13/2021 8:58 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 12/12/2021 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Right, Tom. Damn that Trump character for "fast tracking" this
>>> deadly vaccine! Damn him for getting vaccinated himself!
>>> What sort of example was he setting for the maniacal right wing???
>>
>> There's been a lot of disinformation but eventually serious people
>> do serious analyses:
>>
>> https://denvergazette.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-colorado-s-costly-attempts-to-curb-covid/article_1747741e-440f-11ec-8ee6-2b35a9477e33.html
>
> Executive summary: We knew COVID responses were going to have some
> negative consequences. They did. And poor people were impacted more
> than wealthy people. IOW, the quantification provides no real
> surprises.
>
> But questions arise:
>
> Should the government have done nothing? Just let the disease run its
> course? Places that dabbled in that strategy did no better.

Maybe they should have followed the plans they had in place for managing
a respiratory illness pandemic. Those plans never included lockdowns,
masks, nor vaccine mandates. Like Anders Tegnell, for example.

According to the UK Office of National Statistics, Sweden had a
cumulative age-standardized excess mortality rate of -2.3% from January
2020 to June 2021. Norway was the winner at -12.1%.

Look for table 2:

ttps://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/comparisonsofallcausemortalitybetweeneuropeancountriesandregions/datauptoweekending3september2021#relative-age-standardised-mortality-rates

> In many places, health care was close to collapse even with the
> measures taken. What would the health care system have looked like
> without any government response?

Two weeks to flatten the curve?

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 07:58:22 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 12/12/2021 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 2:48:35 PM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 2:09:19 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/2021 1:12 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> If this is even half-true, big pharma bosses will be swinging from lampposts:
>>>>>
>>>>> If the Vaccine Is So Great, Why Are So Many People Dropping Dead?
>>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2021/12/12/if-the-vaccine-is-so-great-why-are-so-many-people-dropping-dead-heart-attacks-skyrocket-young-children-suffer-heart-problems-soccer-players-drop-on-fields-icus-overwhelmed-from-coast-to-coast-n2600456
>>>>>
>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>> A la lanterne!
>>>>>
>>>> The Return Of Lysenko.
>>> When you can see that the most heavily vaccinated areas have the most "covbid-19" deaths and the least vaccinated have the least you would think that the Congress who has been bringing Fauci before them would ask questions about this. But for some reason I am beginning to wonder if both sides don't see this as a means of controlling a populace through fear.
>>

>> Right, Tom. Damn that Trump character for "fast tracking" this deadly vaccine! Damn him for getting vaccinated himself!
>> What sort of example was he setting for the maniacal right wing???
>>

>> - Frank Krygowski

>>
>
>There's been a lot of disinformation but eventually serious
>people do serious analyses:
>
>https://denvergazette.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-colorado-s-costly-attempts-to-curb-covid/article_1747741e-440f-11ec-8ee6-2b35a9477e33.html
>

>https://i2i.org/how-covid-lockdowns-destroy-small-businesses-and-aggravate-inequality/
>
>The lack of correlation is blatant. However, I'm not sure
>that, in a nation where most people rely on walk-around
>telephone 'news', future policy makers will note these
>disasters with a little humility, as they ought.

Well, as I have asked before, "What is the solution?"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 07:12:22 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>

>Our government is looking for the right balance. It is difficult. We here don't want healthcare to get overloaded so that we can get in a situation that we have to choose who we will be treated in case of an emergency. We tried to loosen the measurements twice this year and yet again we are in a partial lock down because of an overloaded healthcare.
>

>Lou

Condemning those who are attempting to solve a problem is easy.
However it is noticeable that these folks who are so apt at condemning
are strangely quiet when asked for the correct solution.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

I have a state by state and age group by age group fatality printout from the CDC. In the age group from 24-44 in California, during the 2018 SARS epidemic that was supposed to be so deadly, fewer people died than the following year which had a MILD flu season. 2019 which had a mild flu season and some of the best health ever had 75% of the deaths of 2020. More people were killed in traffic accidents in California than the death rate increase supposedly from covid-19 that somehow never showed on the respiratory deaths charts.

These people in the prime of their lives with basically ONE health problem - overweight - have had their lives torn out from under them by the Democrats and Fauci all of which in my book should be tried for Grand Treason.

[AMuzi]

A chinese bioweapon attack is one thing but ineffective
further punishments of one's own population are 'piling on'
in the best sense of Mayor Shortfinger, 'A crisis is a
terrible thing to waste'. I wrote here nearly two years ago
that the draconian protocols were about power, not
mitigation of disease. I have not changed my mind.

I take attacks on liberty very seriously but the economic
destruction is at least as large and serious and continues
to damage:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/04/cramer-the-pandemic-led-to-a-great-wealth-transfer.html

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/sen-blackburn-they-slapped-covid-relief-label-largest-transfer-wealth-ever

If you want a more targeted direct answer, consult the
Sverige government, an outlier of sanity in a world gone mad.

[Lou Holtman]

I’m so tired of all the people that in hindsight know what the government should have done. It was and still is complicated.

Lou

[John B.]

I have no idea what vaccine we were admonished but contrary to Tommy's
assertions the heart problems here have been negligible although it
might be fair to note that Thailand has fewer heart problems normally
then the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, I don't know what the Government of Holland is like nor your own personal political beliefs. But here in the USA the government has NO RIGHT to force anyone to do anything except be hospitalized in the case of a pandemic. They have NO right to force you yo become vaccinated and it is a criminal offense to lie to you to drive you to take vaccinations. They have NO rights to force private business to fire you if you haven't been vaccinated. And they haven't the SLIGHTEST right to demand that you wear a mask.

This isn't what the government should have done but what in fact they should be prosecuted for doing.

[Lou Holtman]

Don’t you think that the difference in mentality and behavior of the swedish people compared to those of other countries and cultures is a factor. The problem with the Dutch the last two years is that we could not handle the ‘freedom’ in the given situation. Every time we got some freedom back we misbehaved and look where we are now. Everyone is complaining and pointing fingers at each other.

Lou

[John B.]

I've asked you before to define "communism" and you don't seem able to
do so.

But no, every case of communism has not failed. Think The Peoples
Republic of China, a communist country that is doing very well, thank
you.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

> I’m so tired of all the people that in hindsight know what the government should have done. It was and still is complicated.
>
> Lou
>

And even if one implies 'best effort', results do not match
the theory.

[AMuzi]

heh heh. Just ask any Tibetan. Or Falun Gong. Or Christian.
Or Uigher...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9?op=1

I have my issues with our current regime, but they're not
china. Yet, anyway.

[John B.]

Some years ago I did a survey of various industries for a company in
the U.S. and one auto factory had just installed a fully automated
welding robot. I remarked, "Oh save a bit on salaries?" and the chap
showing us around said something like, "No, not at all. It makes
better welds, every time".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, not racism but realism, Asians have, since time began view the
educated man as a superior being and thus I suspect that the average
Asian immigrant may well be far better educated then the average S.
American and thus able to command a higher salary.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

Government, in my humble opinion, should take a page from the book of
Hippocrates and at first do no harm. Generally speaking a solution that
prevents all harm is just not available, sometimes no solution that does
any good is available, in which case the right thing is to do nothing.

[AMuzi]

So, more effort reaps more reward? That's now racist!

[John B.]

"78% of Indians have a degree"??? More feces?
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/education/news/only-10-of-students-have-access-to-higher-education-in-country/articleshow/28420175.cms

The Times of India, is a newspaper published in Mumbai, Ahmadabad, and
Delhi all of which are (strangely) in India.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Nice idea but it implies humility, a factor in short supply.

[AMuzi]

You have to allow for Mr Kunich's composition.
My link shows that for legal US immigrants from India.

[John B.]

Well I asked for a solution and you post results.

By "Sverige" I assume that is what us unlettered folks call Sweden,
well
https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/the-public-health-agency-of-sweden/communicable-disease-control/covid-19/protect-yourself-and-others-from-spread-of-infection/
has it:
Take responsibility for preventing the spread of infection
Get vaccinated to protect yourself and others
Stay at home and get tested when you have symptoms
Stay home if someone in your household falls ill with COVID-19
Keep a distance from others in public settings
Follow instructions when visiting events and places where many people
gather
Avoid crowding in public transport
Get tested if you have stayed in a country outside the Nordic
countries
If you are unvaccinated, keep a distance from others

I'm guessing from the comments posted here that most, if not all, of
the Swedish recommendations would not be acceptable in the U.S.

Take responsibility? Wear a mask? Who me? It's my right...
Get vaccinated? NO! NO! NO! It's poison...

I could go on.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Wrong again. Or don't all states still require vaccination before a
child can attend public schools? They certainly did when I went to
school. And the military vaccinates everyone who serves, sometimes
frequently, in fact this dates back to the first Continental Army when
in 1777 General George Washington ordered all members of the army to
be vaccinated.

Tommy, I know we have universal suffrage age but do we have universal
lieage?


--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yes, there is a substantial difference between the citizens of
different countries. In the U.S., for example, I read, people
hollering and screaming about wearing a mask. Here, Thailand, mask
wearing is, for all practical purposes, universal, in fact I have had
people admonish me for being on the street, although not close to
anyone, and not wearing a mask.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

>> I’m so tired of all the people that in hindsight know what the government should have done. It was and still is complicated.

>>
>> Lou
>>
>
>And even if one implies 'best effort', results do not match
>the theory.

Well, no, reality seldom meets expectations. For example, here mask
wearing is nearly universal, I believe a recent survey showed that
nearly 100% of Bangkok people are wearing masks,
https://thethaiger.com/news/bangkok/study-shows-99-7-of-bangkok-wearing-masks-properly
Did it eliminate Covid, no it didn't, but it did have the had a side
effect of just about eliminating the "normal" flu and colds associated
with the rainy season... at least according to my Cardiologist.
Did it help prevent Covid? Well possibly, at least the rate in
Thailand is noticeably lower then the U.S., for example.
Thailand - cases 31,006/1M deaths 303/1M
U.S. - 152,396 2,452
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well... try Panama, Hawaii, and of course the Philippines. Iraq, and
Korea and Vietnam, and what's the latest? Afghanistan and Syria? And
less we forget, a large portion of the North American continent.

Those that throw the first stone, and all that...
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I believe that Hippocrates was referring solely to the practice of
medicine (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well yes, but "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal
than others".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Composition? Or Comprehension?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

As I recall, that's sort of what happened in France during its most
famous revolution. And it happened largely because of extreme income and
wealth inequality.

So if that's your motto, reduce the inequality before frustration rises
to the point of revolution.

> You must have some passing familiarity with numbers, I assume.
> https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/

Explain, please. That page seems to be making my argument, not yours.

> High values among the top few skew averages even when we at the other
> end are living better than elsewhere. Else why would anyone immigrate?
> If it's so bad one might expect to see swimmers braving sharks to travel
> from Miami to Cuba, right? Or sneaking south across the Rio Grande.

I'm not lobbying for the U.S. to become more like Cuba, Mexico, El
Salvador, etc. I'm lobbying for the U.S. to become more like Canada,
Sweden, Netherlands, France, etc. People from those countries are not
sneaking into the U.S. IME, they are more likely to wonder why we put
up with what we do.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I certainly haven't heard that nor said that.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/13/2021 6:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/13/2021 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Well, as I have asked before, "What is the solution?"
>>
>
> A chinese bioweapon attack is one thing but ineffective further
> punishments of one's own population are 'piling on' in the best sense of
> Mayor Shortfinger, 'A crisis is a terrible thing to waste'. I wrote here
> nearly two years ago that the draconian protocols were about power, not
> mitigation of disease. I have not changed my mind.

And I don't see that you've convinced many that you're right. You
certainly haven't convinced me. Repeating "It's all about power" doesn't
make it true.

Again: The friend of mine who is my family doctor founded the practice
that now has something like six physicians and probably 20 or more
nurses, receptionists, etc. From day one of this pandemic, they have
absolutely required masks (and for a long time, temperature tests) on
anyone entering.

How could that be about power? If anything, it would have turned away
business. It was about precautions - ones judged reasonable and
necessary by professionals in the field.

And as an aside, you might like the guy. As he told me in one of our
many long conversations, "I'm a social liberal but a fiscal conservative."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

+1

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Prove you're correct, Tom. Use some of your immense fortune to mount
some lawsuits. I'm sure there are some lawyers who would be willing to
work for you, for a suitable fee.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

It also implies extremely precise knowledge about an antigen never seen
before.

ISTM that you, Andrew, are saying the government should have done
essentially nothing in response to COVID. At least, I don't recall any
specific recommendations you made.

If the government had done nothing, it seems clear that deaths and
economic consequences would have been through the roof (as if 800,000
dead were not through the roof). And the howling from the political
right would have been even louder.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 3:05:16 PM UTC, sms wrote:
> On 12/12/2021 11:32 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> > On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:12:04 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If this is even half-true, big pharma bosses will be swinging from lampposts:
> >>
> >> If the Vaccine Is So Great, Why Are So Many People Dropping Dead?
> >> https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2021/12/12/if-the-vaccine-is-so-great-why-are-so-many-people-dropping-dead-heart-attacks-skyrocket-young-children-suffer-heart-problems-soccer-players-drop-on-fields-icus-overwhelmed-from-coast-to-coast-n2600456
> >

> > Too bad the article didn't provide any sources for its heart attack
> > data, which is useful for substantiating the authors claims.
> Bottom line is that it's not even half true, one-third true, one-quarter
> true, ad infinitum.
>
> Andre may be interested in A&W's new 3/9ths pound burger. It was
> launched after the epic failure of A&W's 1/3 pound burger because too
> many customers said they wouldn't buy an A&W 1/3 pound burger because
> McDonald's offered a 1/4 pound burger at the same price and that 1/4 was
> more than 1/3 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNqJQaf08E>.
?
See, Tom, Scharfie tells the truth at least once every year, though this year he was fast running out of time and got in just under the wire.
>
Yo, Scharfie, I believe that finding. It's a predictable outcome of the ignorant crap the teachers' unions have been teaching the nation's children. And who are the teachers' unions biggest booster, why it's the Donkey Party, of whom you are the most prominent supporter on RBT, in fact recently an office-holder.
>
You're guilty from your own mouth, Steven M Scarf.
.
Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for the enemies of society.

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 11:01:43 PM UTC, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I’m so tired of all the people that in hindsight know what the government should have done. It was and still is complicated.
>
> Lou
>

That's nonsense, Lou, at least on RBT. Tom Munich and Andrew Muzi said from the beginning that the response to ChicCom019 was overblown. Tom has been proved right about excess deaths being mostly missing, proving that the ChiCom pandemic is at the very least inflated or rather small. the numbers just don't add up to a pandemic. Andrew has been proved right about the terrible economic damage the rolling panics have caused.

Andre Jute
Foci could have been a real doctor -- and quietly buried his mistakes and errors of judgement..

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 12:57:58 AM UTC, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >
> > Condemning those who are attempting to solve a problem is easy.
> > However it is noticeable that these folks who are so apt at condemning
> > are strangely quiet when asked for the correct solution.
> Government, in my humble opinion, should take a page from the book of
> Hippocrates and at first do no harm. Generally speaking a solution that
> prevents all harm is just not available, sometimes no solution that does
> any good is available, in which case the right thing is to do nothing.
>

Chance would be a fine thing.

The most successful President of the US in the 29th century wasn't Roosevelt (either) or Eisenhower or Nixon, or Reagan, it was the one to whom I bet most people on RBT would respond, "Who?" It was Calvin Coolidge, an accountant who did nothing that wasn't absolutely necessary, and held no press conferences unless he had something to say. He was known as "Silent Cal" because he was silent, and so was his administration, on the whole, and because they did very little, 99 percent of what they did wouldn't later be seen as erroneous, as is the case with just about every other administration. -- AJ

[Lou Holtman]

What is nonsense? Andrew and Tom proved nothing IMHO. Are they saying that we would have been better of when we had let it go his course?

Lou

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 4:17:07 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>On 12/13/2021 3:24 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> > You do not want to live where 'equality' means chopping the heads off
> > the tall ones.
>
> As I recall, that's sort of what happened in France during its most
> famous revolution. And it happened largely because of extreme income and
> wealth inequality.
>

You really are an ignoramus, Franki-boy. the French Revolution started as a revolt of the Parlements, which are hereditary convocations of lawyers in Paris and major cities, a sort of junior nobility, the Paris one having the right to approve the King's budget (to use shorthand accessible to you). There were difficulties with bad harvests in the previous years (no doubt due to Global Warming -- heh-heh!) but the sparks of discontent would never have flamed up to a revolution without the leadership and the demagoguery of the lawyers, once more, in inherited seats in an hereditary guild-like institution. Read Simon Schama's book, CITIZENS to get a feeling for Paris and the provinces in the critical days (just for you, it is lavishly illustrated with photographs and paintings). Schama is a left-winger himself, so his book isn't perfectly reliable, but I choose his book because you'll find him sympathetic and therefore learn more than you would otherwise.

>
> So if that's your motto, reduce the inequality before frustration rises
> to the point of revolution.
>

Oh dear. The mind boggles at Krogowski's lack of education and reading. What has he been doing all these years? Reading comics and pulling his pudding instead of broadening his mind? Yo, Krygowski, The only way to undermine revolutionary tendencies in humanity is to create the largest and most smugly satisfied middle class that the resources of the nation will bear. That has been the case in every single country with a stable system of government. It is the one procedure on which there is no philosophical disagreement. (In Britain in the Thatcher years the boss of the Electrician's union was abused by the the pinko press for not supporting Labour. He said something like, "I cannot go to a members whose greatest problem is whether he should buy a new car or build an extension to his holiday house in Spain, and say, 'Brother, let me help you out of your misery.' He'd laugh me out of union hall." Students of revolutions and democratic institution-forming, including me, instantly saw that as a turning point, and I dropped Sir Keith Joseph, Mrs Thatcher philosophical backbone, a brief note about it: a union boss was telling us that his members had joined the middle classes and that it inevitably changed their politics.)
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Unsigned out of contempt for a fool with zero culture.

[Andre Jute]

The nonsense is your accusation that there are Monday-morning quarterbacks here. Tom and Andrew and Radey and I, and others too, are saying the same things we said in the beginning, when the lockdown was two weeks, We haven't changed our tune.

No, I'm not saying we should have let ChiCom-19 run its course. First of all, in noting the costs of X action, I am not required to provide an alternative action. Second, there is always the option of doing nothing for fear of aggravating matters. In this case, the vaccines were rushed through, and now we hear that they covser you for only six months at most, and that rolling boosters every few months will be necessary. More, we're hearing about she effects up to and including death -- which were deleted from Pfizer's own report -- and the pharmaceuticals licensing authority in the State is in the courts, trying to suppress their own test reports 75 years when everyone affected will be long did. That does not inspire confidence.

Alternative methods of dealing with the ChiCom-19 are pretty obvious. It attacks mainly very old people, so lockdowns could have been targeted rather than general, for a start.

I have to sleep, so I'll leave reply to you in the capable hands of the others you have, probably accidentally, insulted.

Andre Jute
Better to speak plainly.

[AMuzi]

Oh, are we doing vivisection of living prisoners to sell
organs on a large scale here? I must have missed that. I'm
fairly certain Philippines doesn't do that either but you're
probably right about that and worse in Talibanland.

[AMuzi]

Here's how the numbers stack up:
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

Specifically:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tax-rates-take-home-salaries-40-countries-2018-5?op=1

France av gross US$40718 net US$28503 =30% tax
US gross $64154, net $52344 = 18% tax
Which is the more dynamic with more growth?

It's beneficial to the nation that people are allowed to
succeed. We benefit from their innovations and capital
investment much more than the few accidental benefits from
government theft. If you recall, France imposed a
confiscatory tax on retained after tax assets a few years
ago but relented when their targets (predictably) emigrated.
The Crown's Exchequer found the same quality in
high-achieving Britons who, as humans everywhere, are actors
not widgets.

More, small changes to tax code have repeatedly shown
immense societal benefits in capital investment, employment
and exports. Forced 'equality' is the short path to penury
wherever it's been tried.

We ought to embrace with pride a culture in which sharp hard
working people can persuade their fellow citizens to buy
their products and services profitably. I'm as pissed at
corruption and government edict insider rackets as you, but
they are still very much the exception in a $20T economy. We
ought to jail criminals both inside and outside government
agencies:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-billions-pandemic-aid-was-swindled-con-artists-crime-syndicates-n1257766

https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/california/article256487486.html

And eschew envy as a guiding principle for policy

[AMuzi]

That's hilarious. An absolute contradiction in terms, which
I've heard all my life from people who don't think deeply
about public expenditure.

BTW This is not to bemoan those on relief per se. The real
money is in the insider rackets not the putative 'recipients'.

Not an unusual case:
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/too-much-money-chirlane-mccrays-hands-thrivenyc

You'd think something would change after the 2019 exposure
of that theft. You'd be wrong. The budget went up!

https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/5/9/22426250/thrive-nyc-nypd-diversion-centers-for-mentally-ill-sit-empty

Which is very good for program administrators, friends and
family but as always the original problem remains untouched
if not enhanced as evidenced by the NYC news every damned
morning:

https://nypost.com/2021/10/12/mentally-ill-attacks-all-too-predictable-as-de-blasios-plans-fail/

[AMuzi]

>> I’m so tired of all the people that in hindsight know

>> what the government should have done. It was and still is
>> complicated.
>>
>> Lou
>
> +1
>

And we ought to compliment humility, a rare virtue, in
leaders. Especially so when an otherwise unlikeable example
can admit his errors like an adult:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/colorados-dem-gov-jared-polis-says-masks-no-longer-needed-as-new-york-enacts-mandate/ar-AARHtED

[AMuzi]

He was understudy to another underappreciated giant of
policy. Mr Harding waltzed through the end of the war by
firing government employees, chopping both taxes and
budgets. The rest of the world suffered greatly for several
years, notably Germany but England as well. USA enjoyed a
world historical growth period in the 1920s as others
languished.

[AMuzi]

On 12/14/2021 4:20 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 10:32:54 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 11:01:43 PM UTC, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>

>>> I’m so tired of all the people that in hindsight know what the government should have done. It was and still is complicated.

>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> That's nonsense, Lou, at least on RBT. Tom Munich and Andrew Muzi said from the beginning that the response to ChicCom019 was overblown. Tom has been proved right about excess deaths being mostly missing, proving that the ChiCom pandemic is at the very least inflated or rather small. the numbers just don't add up to a pandemic. Andrew has been proved right about the terrible economic damage the rolling panics have caused.
>>
>> Andre Jute
>> Foci could have been a real doctor -- and quietly buried his mistakes and errors of judgement..
>
>
> What is nonsense? Andrew and Tom proved nothing IMHO. Are they saying that we would have been better of when we had let it go his course?
>
> Lou
>

Ask a Swede.

[AMuzi]

An interesting aspect is that extreme poverty does not
generally incite revolution. Rising incomes and better
conditions generally viewed as 'not fast or great enough'
prove more incendiary.

See American Colones mid-1700s, France a few years later,
Russian Empire in 1905 & 1917, Algeria 1950s. (Haiti is
probably the most significant exception but the extreme
social structure before Toussaint is an exception too.)

[Lou Holtman]

The answer will be dependant which Swede you ask, but you know that. Sweden is not a Covid Nirvana for every Swede:

https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2380020-zweedse-corona-aanpak-onder-de-loep-vooral-migranten-hard-getroffen

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/14/2021 9:56 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> An interesting aspect is that extreme poverty does not generally incite
> revolution.  Rising incomes and better conditions generally viewed as
> 'not fast or great enough' prove more incendiary.

If extreme poverty (that is, compared to whatever ruling class
dominates) does not generally incite revolution, it's probably because
revolution would be very unlikely to succeed. It would be suicidal.

For an example, take Native Americans. Their cultures were battered,
their treaties ignored, their lands taken. They still have pretty
extreme poverty levels. They tried "revolution" many times in many areas.

What would you predict if they tried again today?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 5:26:34 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/13/2021 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 14:22:59 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> >> On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 12:24:21 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 12/13/2021 12:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 12/13/2021 12:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/13/2021 10:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 12/13/2021 11:10 AM, AMuzi wrote:

> >>>>>>> On 12/13/2021 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> >>>>>>>> On 12/13/2021 8:58 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 12/12/2021 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Right, Tom. Damn that Trump character for "fast
> >>>>>>>>>> tracking"
> >>>>>>>>>> this deadly vaccine! Damn him for getting vaccinated
> >>>>>>>>>> himself!
> >>>>>>>>>> What sort of example was he setting for the maniacal
> >>>>>>>>>> right wing???
> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of disinformation but eventually
> >>>>>>>>> serious people do serious analyses:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://denvergazette.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-colorado-s-costly-attempts-to-curb-covid/article_1747741e-440f-11ec-8ee6-2b35a9477e33.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>

> >>> You do not want to live where 'equality' means chopping the
> >>> heads off the tall ones.
> >>>

> >>> You must have some passing familiarity with numbers, I assume.
> >>> https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/
> >>>

> >>> High values among the top few skew averages even when we at
> >>> the other end are living better than elsewhere. Else why
> >>> would anyone immigrate? If it's so bad one might expect to
> >>> see swimmers braving sharks to travel from Miami to Cuba,
> >>> right? Or sneaking south across the Rio Grande.
> >>>

> >>> https://www.axios.com/immigration-united-states-salary-education-445cabb8-51d0-478b-9e36-0e5dd6b1de3f.html
> >>>
> >>> I'm also ready for anyone with a 'racism' argument. See link
> >>> above.
> >> What is somewhat hilarious is that Frank lives and dies by the strength of a college degree. 78% of Indians have a degree and Frank looks down his nose at them like they were a skin disease.
> >
> > "78% of Indians have a degree"??? More feces?
> > https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/education/news/only-10-of-students-have-access-to-higher-education-in-country/articleshow/28420175.cms
> >
> > The Times of India, is a newspaper published in Mumbai, Ahmadabad, and
> > Delhi all of which are (strangely) in India.
> >
> You have to allow for Mr Kunich's composition.
> My link shows that for legal US immigrants from India.

I was speaking of immigrants to the United States. Here is the chart https://www.axios.com/immigration-united-states-salary-education-445cabb8-51d0-478b-9e36-0e5dd6b1de3f.html

I worked with and had Indians working for me who were extremely competent. So these were dime store degrees.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell us Frank, WHO is competent in any field of medicine? How long did it take to recognize a virus. On one of the groups some dumbass such as yourself said that he could see a virus with an optical microscope. This is the sort of competence you often display. I noted that my brother had severe pain in his shoulder and down the back of his back. His wife took him to the local ER and they took X-rays and scans and after 8 to 10 hours they returned the verdict that nothing was wrong with him. The next day he was worse so over the next three days I took him to 3 different ER's. Since they were walk-ins, it again took 8-10 hours to go through these same procedures again and again only to have the same diagnosis returned - he must have a sprained muscle in his back. On the fourth day he had a appointment with his podiatrist and while there his wife who had kept his X-rays on a disk asked the podiatrist to look at them. After he was begged to just look at them he relented but as the picture came up on the screen, he picked up the phone and called the best hospital in Oakland and told them to prep for surgery on pneumonia. I can him down to the hospital who had a gurney waiting at the emergency entrance and he was 10 hours in the operating room as they drained a half of a lung filled with liquid, then 10 days in the ICE and another 7 days in the recovery room.

A foot doctor had more ability to detect pneumonia than ER doctors when 90% of elderly people die from pneumonia so it should have been a slam dunk. FAUCI NEVER had any more experience than those ER doctors. He has never made any public comments that he didn't later reverse. He is a liar and a fool and HE is the one YOU trust with your public health system. I have had prior run-ins with him that I told you about. Dr. Kary Mullis has a 7 minute youtube video in which he proclaims that Fauci is an incompetent liar as I said long before I found that video.

The MOST PERTINENT thing that Dr. Mullis said is "There ARE no wise men of science at the top that will keep us from doing something really dumb". And no one has stepped in to protect the people from Fauci who managed to kill more people so far than the covid-19 has.

I suggest you go back to sticking your head up your ass which you so regularly do.

[Tom Kunich]

Well forgive me Lou, but whether you believe it or not I have done absolutely nothing but present the CDC's OWN statistics that show that Fauci has lied about everything. That the Lame Stream Media has lied and that at the most an additional 50,000 died and not the heavily proclaimed 700,000+.

There hasn't been one single thing I've spoken of about covid-19 that wasn't DIRECTLY from the CDC.

If you do not believe that proves anything that is your error and not mine.

[Frank Krygowski]

About the first link: Are you again trying to make my point for me? From
that site: "Total US tax revenue equaled 24 percent of gross domestic
product, well below the 34 percent weighted average for other OECD
countries.Total US tax revenue equaled 24 percent of gross domestic
product, well below the 34 percent weighted average for other OECD
countries."

The bar chart therein shows the U.S. almost at the bottom for tax
revenue related to GDP, and you apparently want it moved three steps
lower, to the very bottom. But the majority of the countries with higher
tax-to-GDP ratios do far better than the U.S. on most things that matter
to citizens. The U.S. lags on health care, infant mortality, education,
transportation and much more.

About the second link: Yes, Americans have more take home pay than many
others, BUT that's because they need more take home pay! Example #1 is
medical care, with medical expenses being a frequent cause of poverty or
bankruptcy in the U.S. That's largely unheard of in most westernized
nations.

Another huge expense is child care. One young working couple I know has
said that they can't wait until their kids are old enough to get out of
day care, because it costs almost as much as their home mortgage.

Then there's transportation: Two cars are mandatory for most American
families, because there's no other practical way to get around. Even bus
service is ludicrously sparse, let alone things like passenger rail.

More briefly, people in other prosperous countries pay more in taxes,
but _everybody_ gets much, much more in return. And most of the
countries on that list have higher citizen satisfaction than the U.S.

In the U.S., we don't tax as much. So those barely scraping by (paying
for health insurance, the occasional large deductible when they get
sick, their kids' care, their car payments, etc.) pay a tiny bit less in
taxes. Those raking in huge amounts through salaries, investments and
inheritances pay a LOT less in taxes. The result is greater disparity.

> We ought to embrace with pride a culture in which sharp hard working
> people can persuade their fellow citizens to buy their products and
> services profitably.

Don't pretend that people in other countries are not permitted to profit
from their work! If a truly wealthy person finds a way to make an extra
Euro, he may not keep all of that Euro but he still ends up with more
than before.

And there should be more to a man's life than trying to amass the
biggest bank account.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

OK, maybe you wouldn't like the guy. I didn't mean to deviate from the
"power" discussion.

This physician doesn't require masks in his office in order to lord it
over people. He wants to keep himself and his employees healthy. "It's
about power not disease" is flat wrong.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

His statement does not seem to be an admission of error, as you claim.
It's a statement that conditions have changed sufficiently to reduce the
need for masks.

Is he correct? We'll see.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Well what I'm saying is that all we did was let the ChiCom-19 run its course. There were NO excessive respiratory disease deaths so it did NOT kill people. I'm sure that a lot of people got very sick, but being very sick and dying are different. Especially if it is you. But the people who died that might have been infected with the SARS-Cov-2 virus ALL died from complications of circulatory diseases. Fauci's lockdowns killed people for several reasons but mostly fear of the unknown which the Democrats have continued to push. These lockdown deaths FINALLY began ending when the fear of not having any income relaxed and grossly obese people started exercising. Around here it is absolutely amazing how many grossly obese people are simply overweight now. And you can see them out of the bike trails walking any day it isn't raining. But the drug culture multiplied by the drug cartels having unimpeded access to the US markets are regularly killing people. I could show you four drug pushers that are on the corners every day selling. And the people that are now drug addicts are NOT the typical losers that cannot face their own failures. They are now often very educated and previously highly paid people that Frank and Jay thinks should have everything taken from them. And they have succeeded to the point that drug related deaths are now 4 times higher than previous.

In short, covid-19 was not responsible for any measurable amounts of deaths that would show up in the statistics. The numbers I showed Jeff, showed about a 28% increase in deaths but all in old people. So WHY has the weight of this all been on the young having their most productive years stolen from them?

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/california-joining-new-york-in-reinstituting-indoor-mask-mandate/ar-AARNq19

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/14/2021 11:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 8:32:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 12/13/2021 6:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 12/13/2021 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, as I have asked before, "What is the solution?"
>>>>
>>>
>>> A chinese bioweapon attack is one thing but ineffective further
>>> punishments of one's own population are 'piling on' in the best sense of
>>> Mayor Shortfinger, 'A crisis is a terrible thing to waste'. I wrote here
>>> nearly two years ago that the draconian protocols were about power, not
>>> mitigation of disease. I have not changed my mind.
>> And I don't see that you've convinced many that you're right. You
>> certainly haven't convinced me. Repeating "It's all about power" doesn't
>> make it true.
>>
>> Again: The friend of mine who is my family doctor founded the practice
>> that now has something like six physicians and probably 20 or more
>> nurses, receptionists, etc. From day one of this pandemic, they have
>> absolutely required masks (and for a long time, temperature tests) on
>> anyone entering.
>>
>> How could that be about power? If anything, it would have turned away
>> business. It was about precautions - ones judged reasonable and
>> necessary by professionals in the field.
>>
>> And as an aside, you might like the guy. As he told me in one of our
>> many long conversations, "I'm a social liberal but a fiscal conservative."
>
> Tell us Frank, WHO is competent in any field of medicine?

You're right, Tom. My physician, our state's Director of Public Health,
the CDC and the World Health Organization should have checked with the
only _real_ authority: Tom Kunich.

How strange that all those professionals with all their education and
experience still ignore you! Why would that be?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 12/14/2021 2:20 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> What is nonsense? Andrew and Tom proved nothing IMHO. Are they saying that we would have been better of when we had let it go his course?

What is still a mystery is what upside Andre, Tom, and Andrew see about
lying about death rates and infection rates.

While they may feel compelled to echo the narrative of the alt-right,
killing off more of the people that would vote for the right-wing
candidates that they prefer, would not seem to be logical.

Covid death rates in red states are much higher because vaccination
rates are much lower. This may not matter in a heavily Republican state,
but in swing states it could have an effect. Who would have ever thought
the Georgia would vote for a Democrat?

We're not talking about minuscule differences in death rates. Three
times as many residents are dying of COVID-19 in counties where at least
60% voted for Trump than in counties that supported Biden. This is due
to vaccination rates. A poll by Kaiser Family Foundation showed that 90%
Democrats but only 60% of Republicans had been vaccinated.

Vaccine mandates have begin to narrow the gap as many Republicans have
decided to keep their jobs and get vaccinated, but low-information
voters are trying to fight vaccine mandates.

[Tom Kunich]

I know that you cannot keep your incompetence from showing, but doctors do not know much. Studies of using N95 surgeons masks in operating room showed NO change in infection rates with and without masks. This is why only those directly involved in the surgery even bother to wear masks now and the only reason that the surgeon and his helpers do is to prevent being distracted by spray from a wound.

The study in Bangladesh using 320,000 people showed that the paper or cloth masks people use had zero effect and while the group using N95 masks had a statistically relevant improvement it was still too small to be significant and could have been an anomaly.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/14/2021 11:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 8:23:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> This physician doesn't require masks in his office in order to lord it
>> over people. He wants to keep himself and his employees healthy. "It's
>> about power not disease" is flat wrong.
>
> I know that you cannot keep your incompetence from showing, but doctors do not know much.

Thank you, Tom. It's true nobody knows everything. But I'll trust the
judgment of a guy with multiple medical degrees and decades of
experience as a physician.

Instead of, say, the opinion of an unemployed right-wing nut who dropped
out of high school, never studied medicine, and could never hang on to a
job for more than couple years.

(Shouldn't you be negotiating salary with one of those companies you
claim are beating down your door to hire you?)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Well, at least we know that you feel obliged to crawl on your hands and knees to people often put into office not for competence but for political reasons. Congratulations.

Your private physician is your doctor WHY? Most chose a doctor because they are convenient to where they live and they keep them because they don't make any gross errors. The same means by which you chose a dentist of veterinarian. But you expect us to believe that you had a long checklist and did seek recommendations of your "medical" experts for a private physician. I went to MANY neurologists who had no cures for my concussion and didn't even know the proper treatments. When I went to the Professor of Neurology at Stanford, he did not wish to interfere with patients of another doctor and made some calls, he came back in shaking his head and said that something serious must have happened to these doctors because they didn't even know standard treatments for concussion. Then he agreed to treat me.

When I was first taken to Stanford it was because nothing seemed to properly treat my illness and so they assumed it must be some sort of cancer. So they took every possible internal survey possible. This did include my lungs. My neurologist as good as he is at neurology couldn't see the scars in my lungs from the poison gas injuries that an X-ray technician could see and ask "How the hell did you get THOSE?"

As Dr. Mullis said, "There are no old wise men of science that will keep us from doing something really stupid". So take your "experts" opinions as pure unadulterated facts because you KNOW that they can read the CDC statistics better than poor old uneducated me that has completed 100 times more medical R&D than most of your experts.

Frank, you simply cannot keep yourself from being continuously foolish.