Strange Spoke pattern
Damon Rinard
nice ones illustrated:
http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/
Ben Sanford wrote:
>
> I am planning to build up a some new wheels for my track bike. Since I
> have a set, I thinking of trying something different. A friend of mine
> has had a wheel set with an unusual spoke pattern that I'm thinking of
> trying to duplicate. A description: At a first glance it looks as if
> radial spokes on each side of the wheel are just twisted together in
> pairs from the hub before separating and being routed to the correct
> holes in the rim. Upon closer inspection it is basically a modification
> of the normal 3-cross spoke pattern. As the spoke leaves the hub, it
> crosses the 1st spoke very close to the hub, crosses the 2nd spoke about
> 2 cm further out, and then crossed the third spoke a few cm further,
> just as in a normal 3-cross pattern. The difference in this pattern is
> that when the spoke crosses the 3rd spoke, it is wrapped or twisted
> around the spoke it crosses and then proceeds to the hole in the rim
> where it would have go with-out the wrapping. This causes the two
> spokes to both be deflected slightly from the original line, and the
> section where they run together is about 2-3 cm, and in this area the
> twisted spokes run in a radial line. There is no sharp crimp in either
> spoke at this area. The twisting adds 2mm to the normal 3-cross spoke
> length.
>
> I know that the is probably no 'advantage' to this pattern over normal
> 3-cross, but I would be interested in opinions as to what disadvantages
> there might be.
>
> Thanks
--
Damon Rinard
Damon Rinard's Bicycle Tech Site:
http://www.damonrinard.com/
Ben Sanford
Brian Nystrom
Ben Sanford wrote:
This is sometimes referred to as a "snowflake" wheel. It looks cutesy, but
there is no advantage to it and it makes replacing spokes a real pain.
--
Regards
Brian
PPWrench
normal
3-cross, but I would be interested in opinions as to what disadvantages
there might be.<<<
Called twisty spoke pattern, almost impossible to true the wheel or get proper
tension on the spokes-don't do it-it is ridiculous-
peter
Tom
> Have you considered other oddball patterns? Rowland Cook's page has some
> nice ones illustrated:
>
> http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/
>
I've tried building his 32 hole 2 cross with leading and trailing pairs
and his 36 hole 3 cross with leading and trailing triplets for both myself
and others. They sure do look cool, but I have had highly limited success
for my own wheels in those patterns, but high levels of success in wheels
for others in those patterns. It seemed as though nothing I did would
aliveate broken spokes -- in the first 4 days of riding a 36 hole 3x with
leading and trailing triplets I broke 7 spokes. Then I stopped riding it.
I have, however, build up several variations of the Crow's Foot wheel
listed on his page with resounding success. The next wheels I'm planning
on building will be 36 hole crow's foot with the 2 or 3 cross (haven't
decided yet) twisting around the radial spoke like you describe.
One of these days I'll put some pictures of my wheels up on my webpage.
My roommate made a rear wheel like you describe. He's had no problems
with it. However, you may want to consider making the wheel 2x instead of
3x -- it seems as though 3x has too much of an angle where the nipple
meets the rim, which causes binding when turning the nipples.
___
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T O O MM MM @o o@
T O O M M M So if it is in or if it is on it is as it is, *
T OO M M be it in or on. `-'
Richard Strayer
>> nice ones illustrated:
>>
>> http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/
>>
>
>I've tried building his 32 hole 2 cross with leading and trailing pairs
>and his 36 hole 3 cross with leading and trailing triplets for both myself
>and others. They sure do look cool, but I have had highly limited success
>for my own wheels in those patterns, but high levels of success in wheels
>for others in those patterns. It seemed as though nothing I did would
>aliveate broken spokes -- in the first 4 days of riding a 36 hole 3x with
>leading and trailing triplets I broke 7 spokes. Then I stopped riding it.
Just out of curiosity, what was the failure mode for those broken
spokes? That many spokes breaking in such a short time seems highly
irregular, even for such an impractical (but admittedly visually
stunning) lacing pattern.
RES
cr...@my-dejanews.com
Tom (not me) <tyou...@csc.UVic.CA> wrote:
> > Have you considered other oddball patterns? Rowland Cook's page has some
> > nice ones illustrated:
> >
> > http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/
> >
>
> I've tried building his 32 hole 2 cross with leading and trailing pairs
> and his 36 hole 3 cross with leading and trailing triplets for both myself
> and others. They sure do look cool, but I have had highly limited success
> for my own wheels in those patterns, but high levels of success in wheels
> for others in those patterns.
Did you interlace the spokes? Rowland Cook did that with his 3-leading-
3-trailing wheel, and I believe that accounts for the troubles he reported
with the wheel. I strongly recommend not interlacing with this pattern.
I have instructions (slightly different from Rowland's) and illustrations
for this pattern at http://www.qnet.com/~crux/wheel.html .
Questions: Which spokes broke? Were they consistently in the same
positions in the triplet pattern? Were they front or rear wheels?
Tom Ace
cr...@my-dejanews.com
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Brian Nystrom
Tom wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Damon Rinard wrote:
>
> > Have you considered other oddball patterns? Rowland Cook's page has some
> > nice ones illustrated:
> >
> > http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/
> >
>
> I've tried building his 32 hole 2 cross with leading and trailing pairs
> and his 36 hole 3 cross with leading and trailing triplets for both myself
> and others. They sure do look cool, but I have had highly limited success
> for my own wheels in those patterns, but high levels of success in wheels
> for others in those patterns. It seemed as though nothing I did would
> aliveate broken spokes -- in the first 4 days of riding a 36 hole 3x with
> leading and trailing triplets I broke 7 spokes. Then I stopped riding it.
>
> I have, however, build up several variations of the Crow's Foot wheel
> listed on his page with resounding success. The next wheels I'm planning
> on building will be 36 hole crow's foot with the 2 or 3 cross (haven't
> decided yet) twisting around the radial spoke like you describe.
>
> One of these days I'll put some pictures of my wheels up on my webpage.
>
> My roommate made a rear wheel like you describe. He's had no problems
> with it. However, you may want to consider making the wheel 2x instead of
> 3x -- it seems as though 3x has too much of an angle where the nipple
> meets the rim, which causes binding when turning the nipples.
Unless you really like building oddball wheels or think of them as 'spoked
art', there's no point in any of this. There is absolutely no structural
advantage to any of these patterns and most of them are far weaker, harder to
build, harder to true and harder to repair than a standard spokes wheel. As
you say, reliability is a problem, too.
--
Regards
Brian
Ben Sanford
this pattern is an unusual appearance. I also had not thought of the
difficulty in replacing spokes. My guess is that spoked would have to
be replaced in spares, but if I experence difficulty in breaking spokes
I'll probably tear it down and try something else. I have looked Cook's
pages and am also tempted to try either the three leading and three
trailing or the crow's foot pattern.
I completed building the wheel this morning, on a large flange hub for
the rear of my track bike. Since this wheel won't see a brake, maybe I
can tolerate a little more wobble than normal?
It took considerable longer than I had expected to lace it up, because
of the need to bend and twist the spokes into place. The initial
trueing did not seem any more difficult than a 'normal' pattern. I
followed the steps Sheldon Brown's wheelbuilding instructions but added
an additional stress relieving step by pushing the handle of a
screwdriver down at the "V" where the twisted spokes crossed to tighten
up the twist a little, and then re-trued the build, since that did seem
to loosen up the tension a little.
I'm a little unsure about how much tension to end up with since with the
twist, it's difficult to compare spoke deflection with another wheel.
I took it our for a short 12 mile ride this afternoon to test it out,
and it seems fine right now. Longer term durability is still a wait and
see.
Thanks,
David L. Johnson
Ben Sanford <bsan...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I have looked Cook's
> pages and am also tempted to try either the three leading and three
> trailing or the crow's foot pattern.
I recommend against the crow's foot pattern. I built up a wheel that way
once, and found it to be a nuisance. The radial spokes would tend to break
and the wheel did not stay true.
This was with 36 spokes. You of course need a multiple of 12 to do this.
Spense Wolf in Cupertino used to build front wheels (mine was rear) with 24
spokes in a crow's foot pattern. They seemed to work better, but clearly
something only for lightweight riders.
--
David L. Johnson david....@lehigh.edu
Department of Mathematics http://www.lehigh.edu/~dlj0/dlj0.html
Lehigh University
14 E. Packer Avenue (610) 758-3759
Bethlehem, PA 18015-3174
"Business!" cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my
business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance,
and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but
a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
Tom
>
> Just out of curiosity, what was the failure mode for those broken
> spokes? That many spokes breaking in such a short time seems highly
> irregular, even for such an impractical (but admittedly visually
> stunning) lacing pattern.
>
Six of the spokes that broke were non-drive side spokes. Some of them
broke at the elbow, others broke where they crossed. The one drive-side
spoke that broke snapped at the elbow.
I thuroughly stress-relieved every time I had the wheel in the truing
stand, so it was quite thuroughly stress relieved. However, I did re-use
the nds spokes from another wheel. I would expect reduced durability
because of that, but this was extreme.
Tom
(*SNIP!*)
> > I've tried building his 32 hole 2 cross with leading and trailing pairs
> > and his 36 hole 3 cross with leading and trailing triplets for both myself
> > and others. They sure do look cool, but I have had highly limited success
> > for my own wheels in those patterns, but high levels of success in wheels
> > for others in those patterns.
>
> Did you interlace the spokes? Rowland Cook did that with his 3-leading-
> 3-trailing wheel, and I believe that accounts for the troubles he reported
> with the wheel. I strongly recommend not interlacing with this pattern.
> I have instructions (slightly different from Rowland's) and illustrations
> for this pattern at http://www.qnet.com/~crux/wheel.html .
>
> Questions: Which spokes broke? Were they consistently in the same
> positions in the triplet pattern? Were they front or rear wheels?
>
Yes, I did interlace the spokes. Primarialy nds spokes broke, at both the
weaves and at the elbow. The 36 hole version was a rear wheel -- the 32
hole version was a front wheel.
The 32 hole version (2 cross) had 15-16-15 spokes, and was fine for about
1,000 km's. Then it started breaking a spoke about every 150 or so km's
thereafter.
The 36 hole versions both have 15 gague nds and 14 gague ds spokes. The 7
speed one that I built for someone else has been fine for about 300 or so
km's so far -- the 8 speed version I built for myself I didn't even ride
100 km's.
I'm wondering if I should try again not weaving, or if I should go with a
different pattern entirely. I've had nothing but success with my crow's
foot wheels.
Tom
(*SNIP!*)
>
> Unless you really like building oddball wheels or think of them as 'spoked
> art', there's no point in any of this. There is absolutely no structural
> advantage to any of these patterns and most of them are far weaker, harder to
> build, harder to true and harder to repair than a standard spokes wheel. As
> you say, reliability is a problem, too.
>
I fail to see how any of the mentioned lacing patterns can be any weaker
than a standard wheel. Even radial spokes won't pull through a hub before
tension folds the wheel -- and hub flange failures are fatigue failures,
not strength failures.
Peter will probably mention something about "more triangles" -- you should
see how many triangles are in the 3x leading and trailing. Besides --
these so-called triangles have nothing to do with wheel strength in my
understanding of how a wheel works, which is how I presume Mr. Brandt
understands how a wheel works.