Unlacing a wheel: risks?
Gone Fishin'
wheel, completely? I need to swap rims between wheelsets, so the bad rim I
don't care about, but the "donor" rim, well, how careful do I have to be when
unlacing it?
Thanks.
P. Chisholm
Lessen the tension slowly all around, shouldn't hurt the rim.
someone
Release a nipple fully (do not remove) and count seven on the same
side, repeat until each nipple has been released. Now with all
tension removed remove all the nipples consecutively. No quicker
safe way without clamping the rim. Unless you snip the spokes using
the seven rule. Dont know, Never done it.
z
I've always wondered: is this true (no pun intended), as in required, or
just urban legend?
jim beam
you don't know? c'mon buddy, you seem to know everything else.
raamman
>
> - Show quoted text -
maybe someone is coming to grips with the limitations of his own
reality
someone
If the spokes arn't silly jobstian tight in the first place then you
can just snip all the spokes with mini bolt croppers at their
crossings using a diagonal sequence working one side first.
_
Two I can think of:
a) rust-frozen spoke breaks as you force the nipple, releasing it with
speed in the direction of your eye. Don't look at 'em, keep the rim strip
on.
b) freewheel tricky to remove after the rim is unlaced; do that first.
Jobst Brandt
> the bad rim I don't care about, but the "donor" rim, well, how
> careful do I have to be when unlacing it?
For your own convenience, loosen all spokes a half turn after applying
a drop of 3in1 oil to each spoke nipple at both the rim and spoke
thread. That will enable unscrewing the nipples one at a time as you
transfer them to the new rim taped to the side of the old, valve stem
hole and rim offsets matched.
I assume if you are un-spoking, you are anticipating re-spoking on
another rim. Do it!
Jobst Brandt
P. Chisholm
I use 6.......
P. Chisholm
Taking the tension off helps to preserve the rim and also prevent
flange demolition if ya just cut the fully tensioned spokes out.
someone
vinegar is a good preservative.
someone
Which is an unbalanced removal because those first two spokes you cut
will both be trailing or both be leading on the same side. On a wheel
with extreme tension this may buckle the rim. Just make the second
cut between a third and half way round and cut a trailing if a leading
was cut first, and vice versa. Make the third cut halfway round the
greater arc that is left (tril or lead, as the first
z
Peter,
Have you personally witnessed any damage to rims or hubs?
AMuzi
I have.
Classic small-center hubs will occasionally twist across the
center when snipped wantonly and just about any hub can
crack a flange that way.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
Good info. Thanks.
P. Chisholm
Rims, yes, I have never killed a hub flange by just cutting fully
tensioned spokes out but I'm working on the wheel and will detension
it first. I have never had a wheel or wheels to 'test'. What I was
taught by Mike Howard(a fabulous wheelbuilder) in Colley Ave Bikes in
Norfolk over 23 years ago.
someone
wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 07:48:00 -0700 (PDT), someone
> anal about a rim I love. I've never seen any warpage result. I usually
> snip up by the nipples for ease. Use some sort of rotation pattern,
> just to be a little anal. Rims don't warp from a few moments of uneven
> spoke tension.
A wheel which has not been tied and soldered will always warp to some
extent (but not necessarily permanently) when a spoke is detensioned
unless the rim is overtly stiff. Low spoke count wheels are more
susceptible to this warp. A good reason to stick to 28 and double
tie aand solder at least the rear wheel in 15swg spokes.
AMuzi
Agreed, good practice. We get hubs mailed in for wheel
rebuilds and see twisted hubshells from time to time. About
ad often as freewheel still tight with spokes snipped (sigh).
someone
Thinking about derailler collision , this makes sense of putting the
trailing spokes on the outside in the exposed position. I've puzzled
on this and not reached a conclusion, only that when tied and soldered
the bracing is fixed so under normal running it does not matter which
spoke is which side. But without soldering the bracing is reduced
under load resulting in reduced stiffness which means it should be the
other way around. Arrgh, it seems that when building the lightest
wheel then tying and soldering is a must on the drive side.
z
I remember those guys. They had a Cinelli BMX bike with a gold anodized
Campy gruppo on it.
John Thompson
> P. Chisholm wrote:
>>
>> Taking the tension off helps to preserve the rim and also prevent
>> flange demolition if ya just cut the fully tensioned spokes out.
> Have you personally witnessed any damage to rims or hubs?
I haven't noted rim or hub damage by cutting spokes, but cutting a
tensioned spoke will launch it like a rocket out of the rim. It can be
dangerous to standers-by at a minimum.
--
-John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
someone
> On 2009-09-05, z <N...@not.ca> wrote:
>
> > P. Chisholm wrote:
>
> >> Taking the tension off helps to preserve the rim and also prevent
> >> flange demolition if ya just cut the fully tensioned spokes out.
> > Have you personally witnessed any damage to rims or hubs?
>
> I haven't noted rim or hub damage by cutting spokes, but cutting a
> tensioned spoke will launch it like a rocket out of the rim. It can be
> dangerous to standers-by at a minimum.
So put the tyre back on.
Jobst Brandt
>>> Taking the tension off helps to preserve the rim and also prevent
>>> flange demolition if ya just cut the fully tensioned spokes out.
>> Have you personally witnessed any damage to rims or hubs?
> I haven't noted rim or hub damage by cutting spokes, but cutting a
> tensioned spoke will launch it like a rocket out of the rim. It can
> be dangerous to standers-by at a minimum.
Why us cutting spokes under discussion. I got the impression that the
OP wanted to change rims. The best and most reliable way to do that
is to transfer the spoke compliment to the new rim laid against the
old one in the correct alignment.
What is amiss with the spokes currently in the wheel?
Jobst Brandt
Tom Kunich
news:4aa33954$0$1598$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> Why us cutting spokes under discussion. I got the impression that the
> OP wanted to change rims. The best and most reliable way to do that
> is to transfer the spoke compliment to the new rim laid against the
> old one in the correct alignment.
>
> What is amiss with the spokes currently in the wheel?
Perhaps you ought to state outright then:
1) Do spokes wear out?
2) Do nipples wear out?
If so what are their expected lifetimes?
I can tell you that my aluminum nipples lasted about two years before they
started splitting.
Jobst Brandt
>> Why is cutting spokes under discussion. I got the impression that
>> the OP wanted to change rims. The best and most reliable way to do
>> that is to transfer the spoke compliment to the new rim laid
>> against the old one in the correct alignment.
>> What is amiss with the spokes currently in the wheel?
> Perhaps you ought to state outright then:
> 1) Do spokes wear out?
Not on my wheels that I've been riding for more than a few rims worn
almost through over many thousand miles. 36 DT 1.8-1.6 swaged spokes.
> 2) Do nipples wear out?
They lose their nickel plating with time but because they are fairly
low stress, last longer than one wants for dark brown spoke nipples
that were once shiny silver.
> If so what are their expected lifetimes?
I don't know. Mine seem to last forever.
> I can tell you that my aluminum nipples lasted about two years
> before they started splitting.
Why are you using aluminum spoke nipples, known to be operating at
their limit, especially with fewer than 36 spokes. Besides, I suspect
they are already partially cracked because the spoke wrench deforms
them (plastically) while truing the wheel unless the rim interface is
carefully lubricated.
Jobst Brandt
someone
> "Jobst Brandt" <jbra...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4aa33954$0$1598$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
>
>
> > Why us cutting spokes under discussion. I got the impression that the
> > OP wanted to change rims. The best and most reliable way to do that
> > is to transfer the spoke compliment to the new rim laid against the
> > old one in the correct alignment.
>
> > What is amiss with the spokes currently in the wheel?
>
> Perhaps you ought to state outright then:
>
> 1) Do spokes wear out?
They can wear at the crossing if not tied and soldered. Most folks
don't do enough mileage for this to bother the integrity of the wheel.
>
> 2) Do nipples wear out?
Only if you keep tweaking them all the time.
>
> If so what are their expected lifetimes?
Much less than if you left them alone.
>
> I can tell you that my aluminum nipples lasted about two years before they
> started splitting.
Aluminium is not renowned for its reliability in this roll. I think a
lot can be done to help during building, such as reducing spoke
tension by rim manipulation before turning a nipple. I think that
only experienced builders whose wheels never require truing should use
aluminium nipples and they should be locked tight to finish the
build. No ride to see if the wheel has settled unless built with
brass first and aluminium nip's are swapped in after a couple of
hundred miles.
someone
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> Why is cutting spokes under discussion. I got the impression that
> >> the OP wanted to change rims. The best and most reliable way to do
> >> that is to transfer the spoke compliment to the new rim laid
> >> against the old one in the correct alignment.
> >> What is amiss with the spokes currently in the wheel?
> > Perhaps you ought to state outright then:
> > 1) Do spokes wear out?
>
> Not on my wheels that I've been riding for more than a few rims worn
> almost through over many thousand miles. 36 DT 1.8-1.6 swaged spokes.
>
> > 2) Do nipples wear out?
>
> They lose their nickel plating with time but because they are fairly
> low stress, last longer than one wants for dark brown spoke nipples
> that were once shiny silver.
Enamel them in rainbow colours.
>
> > If so what are their expected lifetimes?
>
> I don't know. Mine seem to last forever.
>
> > I can tell you that my aluminum nipples lasted about two years
> > before they started splitting.
>
> Why are you using aluminum spoke nipples, known to be operating at
> their limit, especially with fewer than 36 spokes. Besides, I suspect
> they are already partially cracked because the spoke wrench deforms
> them (plastically) while truing the wheel unless the rim interface is
> carefully lubricated.
Better to relieve spoke tension by rim manipulation while tensioning
and any truing, which is minimal with a good rim and good build.
Tom Kunich
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> 1) Do spokes wear out?
>
> Not on my wheels that I've been riding for more than a few rims worn
> almost through over many thousand miles. 36 DT 1.8-1.6 swaged spokes.
In my experience spokes fail fairly fast or not at all.
>> 2) Do nipples wear out?
>
> They lose their nickel plating with time but because they are fairly
> low stress, last longer than one wants for dark brown spoke nipples
> that were once shiny silver.
>
>> If so what are their expected lifetimes?
>
> I don't know. Mine seem to last forever.
Nipples are cheap enough that I use a new set every time I rebuild a wheel.
I really don't see anything positive about using nipples forever. For that
matter the same with spokes. However, the spokes that have lasted in your
wheel are past the time when they'd fail from fatigue at the bends.
>> I can tell you that my aluminum nipples lasted about two years
>> before they started splitting.
>
> Why are you using aluminum spoke nipples, known to be operating at
> their limit, especially with fewer than 36 spokes. Besides, I suspect
> they are already partially cracked because the spoke wrench deforms
> them (plastically) while truing the wheel unless the rim interface is
> carefully lubricated.
When I was young and stupid instead of my present old and stupid, I wanted
to build the lightest wheels I could at the time. So I used aluminum nipples
and very light spokes. Since I weighed in at about 190 at the time I figured
I could get away with it. Instead the light spokes failed. Replacing them it
took about two years until the aluminum nipples began splitting. Eventually
I got the idea that sometimes traditional methods are traditional for a
reason.
someone
wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 21:27:23 -0500, John Thompson
>
> <j...@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
> >On 2009-09-05, z <N...@not.ca> wrote:
>
> >> P. Chisholm wrote:
>
> >>> Taking the tension off helps to preserve the rim and also prevent
> >>> flange demolition if ya just cut the fully tensioned spokes out.
>
> >> Have you personally witnessed any damage to rims or hubs?
>
> >I haven't noted rim or hub damage by cutting spokes, but cutting a
> >tensioned spoke will launch it like a rocket out of the rim. It can be
> >dangerous to standers-by at a minimum.
>
Rest the wheel on a bucket so that the spokes ping the bucket.
Jobst Brandt
>>>> Taking the tension off helps to preserve the rim and also prevent
>>>> flange demolition if ya just cut the fully tensioned spokes out.
>>> Have you personally witnessed any damage to rims or hubs?
>> I haven't noted rim or hub damage by cutting spokes, but cutting a
>> tensioned spoke will launch it like a rocket out of the rim. It
>> can be dangerous to standers-by at a minimum.
> So leave the rim tape in place until the spokes are cut.
Once more: If you haven't broken any spokes recently, don't throw them
away (cut them out) because spokes that do not break in 1000 miles are
not going to break for a long time, much more so than new spokes that
may retain stress concentrations from lacing and tensioning the wheel.
Besides, unless the lacing pattern is the same and in the same hub
holes as the old spokes were, flanges of an aluminum hub may fracture,
releasing one or more spokes. You'll notice that flange holes have
exceeded yield stress because the holes are formed matching the spoke
elbow. Yielding to a new spoke shape is more than most flanges will
withstand.
Just transfer the spokes from the old rim to a new one (taped to the
old one). Make sure spoke threads and rim holes are oiled and replace
spoke nipples that you find are no longer neat and clean or don't turn
easily.
Jobst Brandt
someone
to instill fear into the unweary:
> Once more: If you haven't broken any spokes recently, don't throw them
> away (cut them out) because spokes that do not break in 1000 miles are
> not going to break for a long time, much more so than new spokes that
> may retain stress concentrations from lacing and tensioning the wheel.
>
> Besides, unless the lacing pattern is the same and in the same hub
> holes as the old spokes were, flanges of an aluminum hub may fracture,
> releasing one or more spokes. You'll notice that flange holes have
> exceeded yield stress because the holes are formed matching the spoke
> elbow. Yielding to a new spoke shape is more than most flanges will
> withstand.
>
> Just transfer the spokes from the old rim to a new one (taped to the
> old one). Make sure spoke threads and rim holes are oiled and replace
> spoke nipples that you find are no longer neat and clean or don't turn
> easily.
If a hub flange fails then that is the end of the hub, no need to
worry about it. I have reversed spoke heads on numerous hubs without
incident. If you are repeatedly experiencing failures JB, then you
must be doing something wrong.
Brass nipples are commonplace because they do not bind on steel rims
and have proved their worth in mass production because of this. There
is absolutely no reason to lubricate the interface of the rim and
nipple, the finish on brass nipples being near perfect. If the
nipples are binding it is because they are bearing maximally against
the steel eyelet or washer. The size of nipple was discovered long
ago when nobody would oil nipples except in the case of using linseed
to prevent their undoing under harsh conditions. Those harsh
conditions were commonplace in the early days of the bicycle for the
only other wheeled vehicles outside of the city would be wagons, stage
coach or mail coach (on maintained turnpike roads). It was the
popularity of the bicycle which encouraged the development of the
roads in England.
That it, you're still overtensioning spokes, otherwise you would not
recommend oil for lubricating a brass nipple on a steel spoke, it's
simply unwarrented in this capacity. You are taking the components
outside of their design limits to satisfy your self importance. Words
fail me. I've run out of complements.
Tom Sherman °_°
> On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 21:27:23 -0500, John Thompson
What fun is that?
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007