removing broken spoke nipples
Bellsouth Ijit 2.0
and a couple for the front (no broken spokes, just the nipples). Some
nipples (brass) are broken where a spoke wrench would engage and just won't
come off. Any idea how I can get them off the spokes without cutting them?
I've tried pliers, but the broken nipples are frozen to the spokes. TIA.
Vee
The nipples are probably alloy, not brass. Alloy nipples will crack
apart if you don't use the right spoke wrench - brass will simply
round off. You may just have to cut the suckers. But first, put some
penetrating fluid on the bad nipples overnight. Then try deflecting
the rim toward the side you are trying to loosen, which will make the
damaged nipples easier to turn. You can deflect the rim by pushing on
it while it's in the truing stand, or by squeezing the two nearest
spokes from the same side of the rim as hard as you can. I suggest a
needle nose vice grips to turn the damaged nipples. Don't get it too
tight, though, or you'll crush them.
If all else fails, loosen the nipples around the damaged one a bit,
then cut out and replace the bad spokes one at a time. Make sure you
use a three sided spoke wrench with the wheel - the most common is
called a "Spokie."
-Vee
jim beam
lighters work great as it's localized.
daveornee
Are the slots clean and open (spoke not in the way).
If loctite, you can try a soldering iron (or butane torch) to warm it
up and them try a screw driver in the slot. If corrosion, penetrating
oil and time will help. As another poster has already mentioned,
proper side force will loosen the tension and maybe make it easier to
remove.
If all else fails you may need to cut the spoke and replace both it and
the nipple. If you cut the spoke it is a good idea to use a side load
technique on the rim to reduce spoke tension and still be prepared for
a projectile.
--
daveornee
data...@yahoo.com
check the hubs for wear.
nipple ends on the rim's inside have flat blade screwdriver slots
try pcblaster on that side
there's a tool idea: a toothed reamer to jam into the nipples male end
a nippleout
A Muzi
Although a 3-sided spoke wrench, heat or a visegrip may help, we just
cut damaged nipples lengthwise with an end cutter. And a light touch.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Bellsouth Ijit 2.0
"Vee" <v.po...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1172927871.2...@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Thanks. I think you are right. There was so much road crud on the wheels,
I couldn't really tell whether they are brass or alu. After I washed them,
they look like alloy jobbies. The nips are broken at the ends where you use
a flat screw driver to initially turn them. They cracked there (so that you
can't use a screw driver any more to turn them) and looked like they pulled
right out of the rim eyelets. Sheesh.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> I've inherited a MTB wheels with half a dozen broken nipples for
>> the rear and a couple for the front (no broken spokes, just the
>> nipples). Some nipples (brass) are broken where a spoke wrench
>> would engage and just won't come off. Any idea how I can get them
>> off the spokes without cutting them? I've tried pliers, but the
>> broken nipples are frozen to the spokes.
> The nipples are probably alloy, not brass. Alloy nipples will crack
> apart if you don't use the right spoke wrench - brass will simply
> round off.
You may mean aluminum (brass is an alloy).
> You may just have to cut the suckers. But first, put some
> penetrating fluid on the bad nipples overnight. Then try deflecting
> the rim toward the side you are trying to loosen, which will make
> the damaged nipples easier to turn. You can deflect the rim by
> pushing on it while it's in the truing stand, or by squeezing the
> two nearest spokes from the same side of the rim as hard as you can.
> I suggest a needle nose vice grips to turn the damaged nipples.
> Don't get it too tight, though, or you'll crush them.
Penetrating fluid is 10W motor oil and that is good enough. I assume
the spokes were a bit long, otherwise a well fitting flat blade
screwdriver could be used to unscrew the nipples... once the junction
has been lubricated.
> If all else fails, loosen the nipples around the damaged one a bit,
> then cut out and replace the bad spokes one at a time. Make sure
> you use a three sided spoke wrench with the wheel - the most common
> is called a "Spokie."
Three sided doesn't do it. Four sided is what does what you want, but
there is no need for that because a two sided spoke wrench and brass
spoke nipples can tighten any spoke to failure. Rounded spoke nipples
are a symptom of friction with rims that were not oiled before
adjusting spoke tension. Wrap-around spoke wrenches are a pain in the
neck because engaging them on spoke nipples is tedious while a slotted
wrench slip on effortlessly. You don't need no steenkin' socket
wrenches to tighten spokes!
The whole three and four sided spoke wrench syndrome befell us from
mechanics who didn't understand an oil can... didn't want to get their
hands dirty or some such fetish. Make sure there is a drop of oil on
each spoke nipple at the rim hole.
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
A Muzi
>>>> I've inherited a MTB wheels with half a dozen broken nipples for
>>>> the rear and a couple for the front (no broken spokes, just the
>>>> nipples). Some nipples (brass) are broken where a spoke wrench
>>>> would engage and just won't come off. Any idea how I can get them
>>>> off the spokes without cutting them? I've tried pliers, but the
>>>> broken nipples are frozen to the spokes.
>>> The nipples are probably alloy, not brass. Alloy nipples will crack
>>> apart if you don't use the right spoke wrench - brass will simply
>>> round off.
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> You may mean aluminum (brass is an alloy).
>> Vee Powell writes:
>>> You may just have to cut the suckers. But first, put some
>>> penetrating fluid on the bad nipples overnight. Then try deflecting
>>> the rim toward the side you are trying to loosen, which will make
>>> the damaged nipples easier to turn. You can deflect the rim by
>>> pushing on it while it's in the truing stand, or by squeezing the
>>> two nearest spokes from the same side of the rim as hard as you can.
>>> I suggest a needle nose vice grips to turn the damaged nipples.
>>> Don't get it too tight, though, or you'll crush them.
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Penetrating fluid is 10W motor oil and that is good enough. I assume
>> the spokes were a bit long, otherwise a well fitting flat blade
>> screwdriver could be used to unscrew the nipples... once the junction
>> has been lubricated.
>>
>>> If all else fails, loosen the nipples around the damaged one a bit,
>>> then cut out and replace the bad spokes one at a time. Make sure
>>> you use a three sided spoke wrench with the wheel - the most common
>>> is called a "Spokie."
>>
>> Three sided doesn't do it. Four sided is what does what you want, but
>> there is no need for that because a two sided spoke wrench and brass
>> spoke nipples can tighten any spoke to failure. Rounded spoke nipples
>> are a symptom of friction with rims that were not oiled before
>> adjusting spoke tension. Wrap-around spoke wrenches are a pain in the
>> neck because engaging them on spoke nipples is tedious while a slotted
>> wrench slip on effortlessly. You don't need no steenkin' socket
>> wrenches to tighten spokes!
>>
>> The whole three and four sided spoke wrench syndrome befell us from
>> mechanics who didn't understand an oil can... didn't want to get their
>> hands dirty or some such fetish. Make sure there is a drop of oil on
>> each spoke nipple at the rim hole.
jim beam wrote:
> oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
Jim, you're the guy commonly chastising others about reading
comprehension.
Review that exchange again. If you ignore that it's from Jobst, you'll
understand his point and concur.
Ben C
>>> Vee Powell writes:
[...]
>>>> You may just have to cut the suckers. But first, put some
>>>> penetrating fluid on the bad nipples overnight. Then try deflecting
>>>> the rim toward the side you are trying to loosen, which will make
>>>> the damaged nipples easier to turn. You can deflect the rim by
>>>> pushing on it while it's in the truing stand, or by squeezing the
>>>> two nearest spokes from the same side of the rim as hard as you can.
>>>> I suggest a needle nose vice grips to turn the damaged nipples.
>>>> Don't get it too tight, though, or you'll crush them.
>
>> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> Three sided doesn't do it. Four sided is what does what you want, but
>>> there is no need for that because a two sided spoke wrench and brass
>>> spoke nipples can tighten any spoke to failure. Rounded spoke nipples
>>> are a symptom of friction with rims that were not oiled before
>>> adjusting spoke tension. Wrap-around spoke wrenches are a pain in the
>>> neck because engaging them on spoke nipples is tedious while a slotted
>>> wrench slip on effortlessly. You don't need no steenkin' socket
>>> wrenches to tighten spokes!
>>>
>>> The whole three and four sided spoke wrench syndrome befell us from
>>> mechanics who didn't understand an oil can... didn't want to get their
>>> hands dirty or some such fetish. Make sure there is a drop of oil on
>>> each spoke nipple at the rim hole.
>
> jim beam wrote:
>> oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
>
> Jim, you're the guy commonly chastising others about reading
> comprehension.
>
> Review that exchange again. If you ignore that it's from Jobst, you'll
> understand his point and concur.
I'm a bit confused whether we're now talking about building a new wheel,
for which oil and a two-sided wrench should be fine, or trying to get
the seized nipples loose on one that was built years ago, perhaps with
loctite, and which might also have suffered corrosion.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>>> You may just have to cut the suckers. But first, put some
>>>>> penetrating fluid on the bad nipples overnight. Then try
>>>>> deflecting the rim toward the side you are trying to loosen,
>>>>> which will make the damaged nipples easier to turn. You can
>>>>> deflect the rim by pushing on it while it's in the truing stand,
>>>>> or by squeezing the two nearest spokes from the same side of the
>>>>> rim as hard as you can. I suggest a needle nose vice grips to
>>>>> turn the damaged nipples. Don't get it too tight, though, or
>>>>> you'll crush them.
>>>> Three sided doesn't do it. Four sided is what does what you
>>>> want, but there is no need for that because a two sided spoke
>>>> wrench and brass spoke nipples can tighten any spoke to failure.
>>>> Rounded spoke nipples are a symptom of friction with rims that
>>>> were not oiled before adjusting spoke tension. Wrap-around spoke
>>>> wrenches are a pain in the neck because engaging them on spoke
>>>> nipples is tedious while a slotted wrench slip on effortlessly.
>>>> You don't need no steenkin' socket wrenches to tighten spokes!
>>>> The whole three and four sided spoke wrench syndrome befell us
>>>> from mechanics who didn't understand an oil can... didn't want to
>>>> get their hands dirty or some such fetish. Make sure there is a
>>>> drop of oil on each spoke nipple at the rim hole.
>>> oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
> I'm a bit confused whether we're now talking about building a new
> wheel, for which oil and a two-sided wrench should be fine, or
> trying to get the seized nipples loose on one that was built years
> ago, perhaps with Loctite, and which might also have suffered
> corrosion.
There are two things going on here. One is removing the cracked
nipples and the other, what sort of spoke wrench should be used (for
removal and rebuild).
Whether the wheel was built with Loctite was not said, but to build a
wheel with it is a bad move. You've got to ask why spokes are
tensioned more than just enough to true the wheel in the first place.
That is done so spokes will not slacken in use. We have come to a
point where wheels have so few spokes, for silly reasons, that these
wheels can barely be made tight enough to not slacken and allow their
spoke nipples to unscrew.
Build good wheels and don't use adhesives.
Jobst Brandt
data...@yahoo.com
whereas the spokey has not worn out
linseed is vastly superior to motor oil
check the hubs for wear
o check the hubs for wear
hey!
Ben C
> Ben C? writes:
[...]
>> I'm a bit confused whether we're now talking about building a new
>> wheel, for which oil and a two-sided wrench should be fine, or
>> trying to get the seized nipples loose on one that was built years
>> ago, perhaps with Loctite, and which might also have suffered
>> corrosion.
>
> There are two things going on here. One is removing the cracked
> nipples and the other, what sort of spoke wrench should be used (for
> removal and rebuild).
>
> Whether the wheel was built with Loctite was not said, but to build a
> wheel with it is a bad move. You've got to ask why spokes are
> tensioned more than just enough to true the wheel in the first place.
> That is done so spokes will not slacken in use. We have come to a
> point where wheels have so few spokes, for silly reasons, that these
> wheels can barely be made tight enough to not slacken and allow their
> spoke nipples to unscrew.
>
> Build good wheels and don't use adhesives.
Thank you, I'll try. I use a bit of linseed oil which goes sticky but I
don't think will require heating with a blowtorch to get it off in the
future.
I don't know about low spoke counts, and my own wheels are all 32 or 36
holes, but I have had cracked rims around the spoke holes on a
drive-side rear with rather tight spokes. The rim didn't have eyelets
and certainly not sockets. Whatever the reasons are for this design of
rim, it is very plausible that lower spoke tensions will increase the
fatigue life of such rims around the spoke holes.
At these lower tensions some kind of threadlock might help, since it
seems that for some rims the tension range between spoke-loosening and
rim-fatigue is a bit narrow for comfort.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> the slot (s) wrenchs used here wore out leaving rounded nipples
> whereas the spokey has not worn out
That means you are using a poor spoke wrench. I use hardened tool
steel spoke wrenches that haven't shown any wear in all the wheels
I've built and repaired.
> linseed is vastly superior to motor oil
In what way?
> check the hubs for wear o check the hubs for wear hey!
What means this?
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
You seem to be an apologist for the rim business. Fortunately I have
a stash of MA-2 rims that don't crack and allow as high a tension as
needed for the life of the wheel. I use motor oil.
> At these lower tensions some kind of thread lock might help, since
> it seems that for some rims the tension range between
> spoke-loosening and rim-fatigue is a bit narrow for comfort.
As I said, spoke prep was introduced by Wheelsmith to cover for
loosely machine built wheels. That was about 30 years ago. It was a
bad idea then and still is.
Jobst Brandt
Ben C
> Ben C? writes:
[...]
>> 36 holes, but I have had cracked rims around the spoke holes on a
>> drive-side rear with rather tight spokes. The rim didn't have
>> eyelets and certainly not sockets. Whatever the reasons are for this
>> design of rim, it is very plausible that lower spoke tensions will
>> increase the fatigue life of such rims around the spoke holes.
>
> You seem to be an apologist for the rim business. Fortunately I have
> a stash of MA-2 rims that don't crack and allow as high a tension as
> needed for the life of the wheel. I use motor oil.
I'm getting quite envious of your stash. I wondered if more recent Mavic
rims might be lighter, and if there was therefore some tradeoff going on
(you'd think leaving the sockets off would be lighter for one thing),
but I have looked up the weights, and the MA-2 is 420g compared to 425g
for the Open Pro. If the MA-2 is also stronger, it's not clear what
progress has been made.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> I don't know about low spoke counts, and my own wheels are all 32
>>> or 36 holes, but I have had cracked rims around the spoke holes on
>>> a drive-side rear with rather tight spokes. The rim didn't have
>>> eyelets and certainly not sockets. Whatever the reasons are for
>>> this design of rim, it is very plausible that lower spoke tensions
>>> will increase the fatigue life of such rims around the spoke
>>> holes.
>> You seem to be an apologist for the rim business. Fortunately I
>> have a stash of MA-2 rims that don't crack and allow as high a
>> tension as needed for the life of the wheel. I use motor oil.
> I'm getting quite envious of your stash. I wondered if more recent
> Mavic rims might be lighter, and if there was therefore some
> trade-off going on (you'd think leaving the sockets off would be
> lighter for one thing), but I have looked up the weights, and the
> MA-2 is 420g compared to 425g for the Open Pro. If the MA-2 is also
> stronger, it's not clear what progress has been made.
They are building expensive junk. As they were ceasing production on
the MA-2 they brought out a palette of rims that were hard anodized
and cost 50% more. Then they discontinued all the old rims and
offered only rims that were more than double the price.
What do you care if the crappy rims weight a gram or two less? For
that matter, much of the cost is promotion and coming up with fancy
names. Cracking rims was not a problem in the days of yore, when I
was writing about it and describing how to build strong wheels.
Jobst Brandt
John Thompson
> oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
Wow. Who uses locktite on spoke nipples?!
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
John Thompson
Take the tire and rim strip off. Most nipples have a slot for a
screwdriver on the bottom; some even have hex heads.
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
carl...@comcast.net
<jo...@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
>On 2007-03-03, jim beam <spamv...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
>
>Wow. Who uses locktite on spoke nipples?!
Dear John,
Happy browsing:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spokes+loctite+nipples&start=0&scoring=d&
You can also search for "spoke prep" and "linseed oil."
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Bill Westphal
Not to mention "DT pro lock". Dtswiss saves you the trouble of
applying Loctite Quickstix 248, god bless them.
<http://www.dtswiss.com/index.asp?fuseaction=nipples.bikedetail&id=5>
jim beam
when jobst writes:
"Penetrating fluid is 10W motor oil and that is good enough. I assume
the spokes were a bit long, otherwise a well fitting flat blade
screwdriver could be used to unscrew the nipples... once the junction
has been lubricated."
he didn't take into account that some wheels are built with loctite.
oil won't "penetrate" in that situation. it's not that much good at
penetrating corrosion either come to that.
jim beam
no, it's actually a good thing if you want wheels to stay true.
> You've got to ask why spokes are
> tensioned more than just enough to true the wheel in the first place.
that's contrived.
> That is done so spokes will not slacken in use. We have come to a
> point where wheels have so few spokes, for silly reasons, that these
> wheels can barely be made tight enough to not slacken and allow their
> spoke nipples to unscrew.
rubbish. my shimano r540 wheels don't loosen their 16 spokes and their
spoke tension is about the same as any other normal wheel.
>
> Build good wheels and don't use adhesives.
that's untrue. /you/ don't care for thread lockers, but you don't ride
modern highly dished wheels and don't have experience with their
non-drive side spokes going loose when honking up a hill. you also
advocate excess spoke tension that cracks rims. for the rest of a
planet that uses rim manufacturer spec spoke tension and highly dished
wheels, loctite is a consideration. that's why spoke manufacturers sell
it. all three of the major spoke manufacturers sell thread locking
products in fact. and mavic use thread locking devices on their wheels
- doubtless others do too. mavic were smart enough to figure out the
benefits of straight pull spokes for reducing fatigue - doubtless they
did their homework on thread locking too. have you? or are you just
condemning something you don't understand like you mistakenly condemned
anodizing?
jim beam
> On 2007-03-03, jobst....@stanfordalumni.org <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>> Ben C? writes:
> [...]
>>> I don't know about low spoke counts, and my own wheels are all 32 or
>>> 36 holes, but I have had cracked rims around the spoke holes on a
>>> drive-side rear with rather tight spokes. The rim didn't have
>>> eyelets and certainly not sockets. Whatever the reasons are for this
>>> design of rim, it is very plausible that lower spoke tensions will
>>> increase the fatigue life of such rims around the spoke holes.
>> You seem to be an apologist for the rim business. Fortunately I have
>> a stash of MA-2 rims that don't crack and allow as high a tension as
>> needed for the life of the wheel. I use motor oil.
>
> I'm getting quite envious of your stash.
don't. they're heavy, their eyelets rust, they're prone to
flat-spotting and their unmachined braking surfaces require you gamble
with less than 100% braking until your brake pads have worn to conformity.
> I wondered if more recent Mavic
> rims might be lighter, and if there was therefore some tradeoff going on
> (you'd think leaving the sockets off would be lighter for one thing),
> but I have looked up the weights, and the MA-2 is 420g compared to 425g
> for the Open Pro. If the MA-2 is also stronger, it's not clear what
> progress has been made.
open pro is deeper for the same or less weight. that means it's more
rigid. and more rigid means better resistance to flat spotting.
jim beam
cracking is /your/ fault. since you wrote the immortal [and
fundamentally underinformed] words "tension as high as the rim can
bear", builders have used excess spoke tension and rims have cracked.
short of a lawsuit to force you to correct your mistake, the only way
manufacturers can ensure wheels are properly built to spec is to build
the whole wheel, not just sell rims which are then abused. so they did.
hence you are single-handedly responsible for the world of the
pre-built wheel; they're your bastard offspring - how can you criticize
what you created?
jim beam
apparently.
jim beam
ma2's /do/ crack. photo evidence has been posted here many times. and
what tension /do/ you use jobst?
> I use motor oil.
>
>> At these lower tensions some kind of thread lock might help, since
>> it seems that for some rims the tension range between
>> spoke-loosening and rim-fatigue is a bit narrow for comfort.
>
> As I said, spoke prep was introduced by Wheelsmith to cover for
> loosely machine built wheels. That was about 30 years ago. It was a
> bad idea then and still is.
you're underinformed.
jim beam
of course.
>
> At these lower tensions some kind of threadlock might help, since it
> seems that for some rims the tension range between spoke-loosening and
> rim-fatigue is a bit narrow for comfort.
indeed.
G.T.
>
>
> that's untrue. /you/ don't care for thread lockers, but you don't ride
> modern highly dished wheels and don't have experience with their
> non-drive side spokes going loose when honking up a hill. you also
> advocate excess spoke tension that cracks rims.
There goes the rim manufacturer apologist.
Greg
--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Andrew Lee
>> Not to mention "DT pro lock". Dtswiss saves you the trouble of
>> applying Loctite Quickstix 248, god bless them.
>>
>> <http://www.dtswiss.com/index.asp?fuseaction=nipples.bikedetail&id=5>
>>
> sapim spoke nipples come with it already applied to their threads
> apparently.
This is not true for the Sapim nipples that I have seen.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Andrew,
Sapim makes three kinds of nipples:
http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=products&sub=nipples
The self-securing one is what Jim Beam has in mind.
Sapim also sells "Nipple Freeze" threadlocking fluid :
http://www.chickencycles.co.uk/products/spokes/index.html
Scroll to the bottom.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Ben C
> Ben C? writes:
[...]
>> Mavic rims might be lighter, and if there was therefore some
>> trade-off going on (you'd think leaving the sockets off would be
>> lighter for one thing), but I have looked up the weights, and the
>> MA-2 is 420g compared to 425g for the Open Pro. If the MA-2 is also
>> stronger, it's not clear what progress has been made.
>
> They are building expensive junk. As they were ceasing production on
> the MA-2 they brought out a palette of rims that were hard anodized
> and cost 50% more. Then they discontinued all the old rims and
> offered only rims that were more than double the price.
>
> What do you care if the crappy rims weight a gram or two less?
I don't care about a few grams, but it's the older rims that weighed
less if you compare Open Pro with MA2. That seemed surprising-- there's
something more subtle going on than the usual ongoing weight-saving
which is what I was expecting to find.
Either we're just being taken for a ride, or there are other
considerations like rim rigidity as jim beam suggested.
[...]
> Cracking rims was not a problem in the days of yore, when I
> was writing about it and describing how to build strong wheels.
I'm sure you're right, but it does seem to be quite a common failure
mode these days.
Ben C
> Ben C wrote:
>> On 2007-03-03, jobst....@stanfordalumni.org <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>>> Ben C? writes:
>> [...]
>>>> I don't know about low spoke counts, and my own wheels are all 32 or
>>>> 36 holes, but I have had cracked rims around the spoke holes on a
>>>> drive-side rear with rather tight spokes. The rim didn't have
>>>> eyelets and certainly not sockets. Whatever the reasons are for this
>>>> design of rim, it is very plausible that lower spoke tensions will
>>>> increase the fatigue life of such rims around the spoke holes.
>>> You seem to be an apologist for the rim business. Fortunately I have
>>> a stash of MA-2 rims that don't crack and allow as high a tension as
>>> needed for the life of the wheel. I use motor oil.
>>
>> I'm getting quite envious of your stash.
>
> don't. they're heavy, their eyelets rust, they're prone to
> flat-spotting and their unmachined braking surfaces require you gamble
> with less than 100% braking until your brake pads have worn to conformity.
Certainly my CXP23 rims were very smooth braking from day one.
>> I wondered if more recent Mavic
>> rims might be lighter, and if there was therefore some tradeoff going on
>> (you'd think leaving the sockets off would be lighter for one thing),
>> but I have looked up the weights, and the MA-2 is 420g compared to 425g
>> for the Open Pro. If the MA-2 is also stronger, it's not clear what
>> progress has been made.
>
> open pro is deeper for the same or less weight. that means it's more
> rigid. and more rigid means better resistance to flat spotting.
Does more rigid also mean that less spoke tension is required? So
there's a kind of tradeoff between the weight of sockets and putting
more material on the rim itself-- stiffer rim in exchange for inferior
spoke support, but because it's stiffer, you don't need such tight
spokes. I expect there have also been changes in the flavour of
aluminium used and manufacturing process.
I think I've heard you saying high spoke tension has the effect of
"borrowing" strength from the spokes to add to the rim.
A more rigid rim would spread the load over more spokes, so they will
individually detension by less, therefore less pretension required.
data...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
read following tech before, during and after armstrong, the
participation numbers go up and don accordingly, a fact not unoticed
by manufacturers building what the impressionable public imagines they
want so we have a plethora (!) of GP bikes and GP bike wheels,
pedals...eventually leading to the one spoke wheel-see colorado
cyclist's catalog or gee that catalog at the end of armstrong's reign-
for the exotic wheel section-aren't they beatuful-yup
but it is plausible these wheels are an enourmous maintenance hassle
as also read in tech where a slew of riders showed up wanting to know
why their GP wheels were disintegrating.
according to johnson, the linseed polymerizes and gives maybe 2-3
pounds of holding power. there is green locktite formulated to flow
down into the nipple after tensioning but what to use as the
tensioning lubricant? CHO? could be but I haven't tried that. Herr
Brandt will state a correctly built wheel doesn't need loctite and if
you go thru that with enough knowledge(after reading his book and
various writings here and at sheldon brown.parsec1) you'll agree with
JB. butbutbut at that point you'll understand that you don't have the
skills to build a JB level wheel which brings you back to the loctite.
ignore this reality and persvere: after 30-40 wheel tunes and builds,
you will begin to get the hang of it.
data...@yahoo.com
> Datakoll? writes:
> > the slot (s) wrenchs used here wore out leaving rounded nipples
> > whereas the spokey has not worn out
>
> That means you are using a poor spoke wrench. I use hardened tool
> steel spoke wrenches that haven't shown any wear in all the wheels
> I've built and repaired.
>
> > linseed is vastly superior to motor oil
>
> In what way?
well, MO evaporates, washes away, moisture and worse moisture and salt
enter corroding the works whereas linseed polymerizes, holds as a
locktite substitute and like lock seals out moisture while continuing
to lubricate.
>
> > check the hubs for wear o check the hubs for wear hey!
>
> What means this?
That's an old scandanavian drinking song.
no use believing the once unwanted "free" set are wheels not rims
until the hubs examined for excessive wear.
the cr-18's/36 give no excessive problems at all hauling 40 pounds
beans\ 165 pound rider\35 bike/rack down the smooth roads at 25 mph
with excellent brake surface wear using belt dressing for brake/rim
prep but yeah gee whiz those rims with the fberglass spokes goin
straight thru the hub they're a gas but i think i'll get my teeth
fixed
datakoll
data...@yahoo.com
from the palm beach botique lbs. twas on the wall next to the $40
kevlar rim strips. and it wroked 100% terrific with an additive or
something missing that enlarged the semi setup time from less than
zero ifn yougottago or there's a large black spider crawling up your
back to 3-5 minutes in 90+ heat: enough time to set cones/locknuts or
20 minutes for the nipples.
finding an additive for lock that would do that ,,,
data...@yahoo.com
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> the slot (s) wrenchs used here wore out leaving rounded nipples
>>> whereas the spokey has not worn out
>> That means you are using a poor spoke wrench. I use hardened tool
>> steel spoke wrenches that haven't shown any wear in all the wheels
>> I've built and repaired.
>>> linseed is vastly superior to motor oil
>> In what way?
> well, MO evaporates, washes away, moisture and worse moisture and salt
> enter corroding the works whereas linseed polymerizes, holds as a
> locktite substitute and like lock seals out moisture while continuing
> to lubricate.
That doesn't explain how I have used the same spokes over many rims in
the last 30 years. I have no trouble unspoking these wheels when the
rims wear out, although I replace a spoke nipple or two that didn't
rotate as freely as I would like. I don't cut out spokes.
>>> check the hubs for wear o check the hubs for wear hey!
>> What means this?
> That's an old scandanavian drinking song. no use believing the once
> unwanted "free" set are wheels not rims until the hubs examined for
> excessive wear.
> the cr-18's/36 give no excessive problems at all hauling 40 pounds
> beans\ 165 pound rider\35 bike/rack down the smooth roads at 25 mph
> with excellent brake surface wear using belt dressing for brake/rim
> prep but yeah gee whiz those rims with the fberglass spokes goin
> straight thru the hub they're a gas but i think i'll get my teeth
> fixed
Mystery!
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
jim beam
that, or lower spoke count.
> So
> there's a kind of tradeoff between the weight of sockets and putting
> more material on the rim itself-- stiffer rim in exchange for inferior
> spoke support, but because it's stiffer, you don't need such tight
> spokes. I expect there have also been changes in the flavour of
> aluminium used and manufacturing process.
for open pros, yes, there is supposed to be a change in flavor. exactly
what, i don't know, but hey...
>
> I think I've heard you saying high spoke tension has the effect of
> "borrowing" strength from the spokes to add to the rim.
other way around - you "borrow" compression from the rim to tension
spokes. spokes in tension can then support a compressive load. but the
more spoke tension you "borrow" from the rim, the closer the rim is to
cracking and buckling.
>
> A more rigid rim would spread the load over more spokes, so they will
> individually detension by less, therefore less pretension required.
yes, or you can use fewer spokes! i have some shimano r540 wheels with
only 16 spokes per wheel. big deep rim. spokes never touched since the
box opened. spoke tension, as measured with a park tensiometer, is
~1100N drive side rear.
jim beam
> Datakoll? writes:
>
>>>> the slot (s) wrenchs used here wore out leaving rounded nipples
>>>> whereas the spokey has not worn out
>
>>> That means you are using a poor spoke wrench. I use hardened tool
>>> steel spoke wrenches that haven't shown any wear in all the wheels
>>> I've built and repaired.
>
>>>> linseed is vastly superior to motor oil
>
>>> In what way?
>
>> well, MO evaporates, washes away, moisture and worse moisture and salt
>> enter corroding the works whereas linseed polymerizes, holds as a
>> locktite substitute and like lock seals out moisture while continuing
>> to lubricate.
>
> That doesn't explain how I have used the same spokes over many rims in
> the last 30 years.
yeah, all the same spokes, except for the ones that have been replaced
of course.
> I have no trouble unspoking these wheels when the
> rims wear out,
i don't believe that for 2 reasons.
1. spoke nipple threads are not a perfect seal with the spoke threads.
fine road grit accumulates in the gap between them - you'd have seen
this fine powder throughout the thread if you'd have bothered to examine
with a magnifier. in time, that fine grit accumulates to a level where
threads can be very hard to move. use of a loctite compound, especially
the wicking variety that fills the gaps, seals this grit out.
disassembly of a wheel that /has/ been built in this way [using heat to
soften the compound] shows the region on the hub end of the thread where
the the locking compound has been, then a region of "clean" thread on
the other end that has been kept grit-free by the sealing action.
2. brass and stainless steels are dissimilar materials with different
electrode potentials. the two in contact in the presence of an
electrolyte, rain, will have differential corrosion. again, thread lock
can reduce this by minimizing moisture intrusion.
i guess it's possible that you keep your spoke threads so saturated in
oil that grit and moisture intrusion is minimized, but that would have
to be an on-going process otherwise the oil will dissipate over time and
what i've described will start to occur. and of course, you'll be
ruining your tubes with the oil.
> although I replace a spoke nipple or two that didn't
> rotate as freely as I would like.
er, i wonder how that could /possibly/ have occurred...
A Muzi
>>>>> oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
>>> John Thompson <jo...@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
>>>> Wow. Who uses locktite on spoke nipples?!
>> carl...@comcast.net writes:
>>> Happy browsing:
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spokes+loctite+nipples&start=0&scoring=d&
>>> You can also search for "spoke prep" and "linseed oil."
> Bill Westphal wrote:
>> Not to mention "DT pro lock". Dtswiss saves you the trouble of
>> applying Loctite Quickstix 248, god bless them.
>> <http://www.dtswiss.com/index.asp?fuseaction=nipples.bikedetail&id=5>
jim beam wrote:
> sapim spoke nipples come with it already applied to their threads
> apparently.
Maybe as an option. We use 12~14K Sapim brass nipples a year. No
Loctite in 'em.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
data...@yahoo.com
yeahhhhh! DT pro lock brass 2.0x16 mm ooooo!!!!!!!! ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
i'm in!
John Thompson
Geez. I've been building wheel for almost 30 years and never had to use
locktite.
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
jim beam
carl...@comcast.net
<jo...@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
>On 2007-03-04, carl...@comcast.net <carl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:33:57 -0600, John Thompson
>><jo...@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2007-03-03, jim beam <spamv...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> oil won't loosen loctite jobst. heat will.
>>>
>>>Wow. Who uses locktite on spoke nipples?!
>>
>> Dear John,
>>
>> Happy browsing:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spokes+loctite+nipples&start=0&scoring=d&
>>
>> You can also search for "spoke prep" and "linseed oil."
>
>Geez. I've been building wheel for almost 30 years and never had to use
>locktite.
Dear John,
I think that DT Swiss, Sapim, and Wheelsmith all sell threadlock goo
for spokes and nipples. It seems to be mainly for low-spoke-count
wheels. I don't know if the stuff is any better than the venerable
linseed oil often mentioned on RBT.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>
>> that's untrue. /you/ don't care for thread lockers, but you don't
>> ride modern highly dished wheels and don't have experience with their
>> non-drive side spokes going loose when honking up a hill. you also
>> advocate excess spoke tension that cracks rims.
>
> There goes the rim manufacturer apologist.
>
> Greg
eh? where's the apology? excess spoke tension cracks rims. is
pointing out that chain gouging causes fatigue in cranks an apology for
crank manufacturers?
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>>> the slot (s) wrenchs used here wore out leaving rounded nipples
>>>>> whereas the spokey has not worn out
>>>> That means you are using a poor spoke wrench. I use hardened
>>>> tool steel spoke wrenches that haven't shown any wear in all the
>>>> wheels I've built and repaired.
>>>>> linseed is vastly superior to motor oil
>>>> In what way?
>>> well, MO evaporates, washes away, moisture and worse moisture and
>>> salt enter corroding the works whereas linseed polymerizes, holds
>>> as a locktite substitute and like lock seals out moisture while
>>> continuing to lubricate.
>> That doesn't explain how I have used the same spokes over many rims
>> in the last 30 years.
> yeah, all the same spokes, except for the ones that have been
> replaced of course.
SO what about the spokes on the freewheel side that didn't get dinged
from the chain dropping in and all the rest of the spokes on the left
side and front wheel.
>> I have no trouble un-spoking these wheels when the rims wear out,
> i don't believe that for 2 reasons.
Why don't you just say what you mean... that I am lying.
Your reasons are hypothetical. My spokes are the same over all these
years, the ones with which I started long ago.
>> although I replace a spoke nipple or two that didn't rotate as
>> freely as I would like.
> er, i wonder how that could /possibly/ have occurred...
Fine road grit and oil can make a less than good thread engagement.
We are talking about removing spoke nipples, not re-spoking with ones
that have been around the block many times. Stop dodging!
>> I don't cut out spokes.
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
> "jim beam" writes:
>
>>>>>> the slot (s) wrenchs used here wore out leaving rounded nipples
>>>>>> whereas the spokey has not worn out
>
>>>>> That means you are using a poor spoke wrench. I use hardened
>>>>> tool steel spoke wrenches that haven't shown any wear in all the
>>>>> wheels I've built and repaired.
>
>>>>>> linseed is vastly superior to motor oil
>
>>>>> In what way?
>
>>>> well, MO evaporates, washes away, moisture and worse moisture and
>>>> salt enter corroding the works whereas linseed polymerizes, holds
>>>> as a locktite substitute and like lock seals out moisture while
>>>> continuing to lubricate.
>
>>> That doesn't explain how I have used the same spokes over many rims
>>> in the last 30 years.
>
>> yeah, all the same spokes, except for the ones that have been
>> replaced of course.
> SO what about the spokes on the freewheel side that didn't get dinged
> from the chain dropping in and all the rest of the spokes on the left
> side and front wheel.
>
>>> I have no trouble un-spoking these wheels when the rims wear out,
>
>> i don't believe that for 2 reasons.
>
> Why don't you just say what you mean... that I am lying.
no jobst, you're just trying to pass underinformed assumption as fact.
>
> Your reasons are hypothetical.
no jobst, they're observed. dye penetrant proving anodizing causes rim
cracking is "hypothetical" because it's not observed.
> My spokes are the same over all these
> years, the ones with which I started long ago.
everlasting spokes are "hypothetical" too, especially in a material that
has no endurance limit.
>
>>> although I replace a spoke nipple or two that didn't rotate as
>>> freely as I would like.
>
>> er, i wonder how that could /possibly/ have occurred...
>
> Fine road grit and oil can make a less than good thread engagement.
indeed. but one [trivially] correct statement in an ocean of assumption
and error won't float your boat jobst.
> We are talking about removing spoke nipples, not re-spoking with ones
> that have been around the block many times. Stop dodging!
dodge what??? you need to get a magnifier and examine the threads next
time you disassemble your fatigue proof spokes. i have, and they're
full of grit! and loctite /does/ seal threads against grit intrusion -
that's observed, not just hypothetical.
Gary Young
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Ben C? writes:
>>
>>>>> I don't know about low spoke counts, and my own wheels are all 32 or
>>>>> 36 holes, but I have had cracked rims around the spoke holes on a
>>>>> drive-side rear with rather tight spokes. The rim didn't have
>>>>> eyelets and certainly not sockets. Whatever the reasons are for this
>>>>> design of rim, it is very plausible that lower spoke tensions will
>>>>> increase the fatigue life of such rims around the spoke holes.
>>
>>>> You seem to be an apologist for the rim business. Fortunately I have
>>>> a stash of MA-2 rims that don't crack and allow as high a tension as
>>>> needed for the life of the wheel. I use motor oil.
>>
>>> I'm getting quite envious of your stash. I wondered if more recent
>>> Mavic rims might be lighter, and if there was therefore some trade-off
>>> going on (you'd think leaving the sockets off would be lighter for one
>>> thing), but I have looked up the weights, and the MA-2 is 420g
>>> compared to 425g for the Open Pro. If the MA-2 is also stronger, it's
>>> not clear what progress has been made.
>>
>> They are building expensive junk. As they were ceasing production on
>> the MA-2 they brought out a palette of rims that were hard anodized and
>> cost 50% more. Then they discontinued all the old rims and offered
>> only rims that were more than double the price.
>>
>> What do you care if the crappy rims weight a gram or two less? For
>> that matter, much of the cost is promotion and coming up with fancy
>> names. Cracking rims was not a problem in the days of yore, when I was
>> writing about it and describing how to build strong wheels.
>
> cracking is /your/ fault. since you wrote the immortal [and
> fundamentally underinformed] words "tension as high as the rim can
> bear", builders have used excess spoke tension and rims have cracked.
> short of a lawsuit to force you to correct your mistake, the only way
> manufacturers can ensure wheels are properly built to spec is to build
> the whole wheel, not just sell rims which are then abused. so they did.
> hence you are single-handedly responsible for the world of the
> pre-built wheel; they're your bastard offspring - how can you criticize
> what you created?
And on the seventh day he rested.
I guess Jobst can take some comfort from the fact that he's no longer a
nonentity ignored by the industry, as you've so often described him in
the past.
Gary Young
Was the rim "hard anodized"? Although many rims have a thin layer of
anodizing to resist corrosion and for cosmetic reasons, some rims used to
have a thicker layer that was claimed to give the rim greater strength or
hardness. It was usually a dark brown or grey. Jobst says that such rims
are prone to failure because the thick anodizing allows small surface
cracks to propagate into the aluminum. I don't have any personal
significance with that, but it does seem significant that I no longer see
rim manufacturers touting the advantages of such anodizing.
Ben C
> On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:37:49 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>> Ben C wrote:
>>> I don't know about low spoke counts, and my own wheels are all 32 or 36
>>> holes, but I have had cracked rims around the spoke holes on a
>>> drive-side rear with rather tight spokes. The rim didn't have eyelets
>>> and certainly not sockets. Whatever the reasons are for this design of
>>> rim, it is very plausible that lower spoke tensions will increase the
>>> fatigue life of such rims around the spoke holes.
>
> Was the rim "hard anodized"?
I don't know. It was a "Rigida Nova" rim. I'm fairly certain the spokes
were too tight. I kept having problems with them coming loose, and did
them up a bit too tight to compensate. I knew even less about what I was
doing then than now, but when I came to replace the wheel I plucked the
spokes and compared them to a few reference wheels and it was definitely
much more highly strung than average. For my new wheels I used linseed
oil and moderate tension after reading RBT and so far no problems.
> Jobst says that such rims are prone to failure because the thick
> anodizing allows small surface cracks to propagate into the aluminum.
> I don't have any personal significance with that, but it does seem
> significant that I no longer see rim manufacturers touting the
> advantages of such anodizing.
I was wondering also if rim design has changed in any way to facilitate
machine building. jim beam said rims these days are more rigid than the
MA-2 was. When I built my CXP23 wheels, I was surprised by how easy it
was. I just put the spokes in and carefully did them up by the same
amount, and as soon as the tension started to get there, the wheels ran
close to true without needing much correction. I wonder if the more
rigid rim had anything to do with this.
dabac
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org Wrote:
> Vee Powell writes:
>
> >> I've inherited a MTB wheels with half a dozen broken nipples for
> >> the rear and a couple for the front (no broken spokes, just the
> >> nipples). ....
>
> > The nipples are probably alloy, not brass. Alloy nipples will crack
> > apart if you don't use the right spoke wrench - brass will simply
> > round off.
>
> You may mean aluminum (brass is an alloy).
>
Well, apparently in some circumstances/places alloy is the name applied
to what'd probably be referred to as aluminum or possibly aluminium in
other settings. Besides, does anyone actually use chemically "pure" AL
in the first place, isn't it all alloys as well?
Quote from 'here:'
(http://www.scottys-choppers.com.au/bikes/discovery/index.html) -"...
organic polished alloy super bikes..."-
Or 'this link'
(http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&q=biker+build-off+alloy&meta=) will
throw up a bunch of good people using the word alloy where one would
suspect that they are talking about materials with more than a fleeting
resemblance to aluminum...
--
dabac
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
How much more rigid does a rim need to be to outlast wear on its rim
brake track, the one that tells you you need a new rim? That rims
crack is an imbalance between structural strength and point loading of
spokes. In the days of yore, rim manufacturers reduced rim weight
until spoke tension could still be above the level that would come
undone in use. To achieve that they used sockets and eyelets.
Then Mavic got bought by the ski binding folks who were accustomed to
a higher margin, so the scrapped the sockets and in some cases even
eyelets. Hard anodizing cracked rims circumferentially and locally
around spoke holes so they gradually gave that up, but they refuse to
make a rim with spoke socket inserts... to costly. BS, rims cost at
least fourfold what they did when the MA-2 was scrapped. They tossed
an MA-3 assuming users were too dumb to notice the difference.
One should ask, why they make rims that cannot be tensioned enough to
keep spokes from unscrewing. Besides that, lateral strength of a
wheel is compromised by low tension because in a side load enough to
make one side of the wheel slacken, its lateral strength is
immediately cut in half of what it normally is. That is where wheel
collapse occurs in a side slip.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> I've inherited a MTB wheels with half a dozen broken nipples for
>>>> the rear and a couple for the front (no broken spokes, just the
>>>> nipples). ....
>>> The nipples are probably alloy, not brass. Alloy nipples will
>>> crack apart if you don't use the right spoke wrench - brass will
>>> simply round off.
>> You may mean aluminum (brass is an alloy).
> Well, apparently in some circumstances/places alloy is the name
> applied to what'd probably be referred to as aluminum or possibly
> aluminium in other settings. Besides, does anyone actually use
> chemically "pure" AL in the first place, isn't it all alloys as
> well?
If the primary component is aluminum, we call it aluminum, if it is
titanium, we call it titanium, for steel it's steel, not aloy steel.
> Quote from 'here:'
http://www.scottys-choppers.com.au/bikes/discovery/index.html
> organic polished alloy super bikes..."-
Oh! I wasn't aware that advertising jive doubles as a dictionary. I
suppose you can take your hints fom wherever you choose but cluding
writing with popular jargon does not male it more understandable.
> Or 'this link'
http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&q=biker+build-off+alloy&meta=
> will throw up a bunch of good people using the word alloy where one
> would suspect that they are talking about materials with more than a
> fleeting resemblance to aluminum...
Lots of jive!
Jobst Brandt
Ben C
> Ben C? writes:
[...]
>> facilitate machine building. jim beam said rims these days are more
>> rigid than the MA-2 was. When I built my CXP23 wheels, I was
>> surprised by how easy it was. I just put the spokes in and
>> carefully did them up by the same amount, and as soon as the tension
>> started to get there, the wheels ran close to true without needing
>> much correction. I wonder if the more rigid rim had anything to do
>> with this.
>
> How much more rigid does a rim need to be to outlast wear on its rim
> brake track, the one that tells you you need a new rim?
I don't see the direct relationship between rigidity and life.
> That rims crack is an imbalance between structural strength and point
> loading of spokes. In the days of yore, rim manufacturers reduced rim
> weight until spoke tension could still be above the level that would
> come undone in use. To achieve that they used sockets and eyelets.
But isn't it easier, cheaper and lighter to achieve that with threadlock
instead? Provided tension is high enough that you don't get lateral
collapse as you describe below, what's actually wrong with threadlock?
Also, haven't people been using linseed oil since the bygone days of
myth, lore and yore anyway?
> Then Mavic got bought by the ski binding folks who were accustomed to
> a higher margin, so the scrapped the sockets and in some cases even
> eyelets. Hard anodizing cracked rims circumferentially and locally
> around spoke holes so they gradually gave that up, but they refuse to
> make a rim with spoke socket inserts... to costly. BS, rims cost at
> least fourfold what they did when the MA-2 was scrapped. They tossed
> an MA-3 assuming users were too dumb to notice the difference.
I do have one problem with your account of history. Mavic don't have a
monopoly and are subject to market forces. If they doubled their prices
and made their products inferior, you would expect them to lose out to
their competitors, and wouldn't we all be buying rims built like MA-2s
from someone else?
It might not be a completely efficient market, but all the same, it
sounds a bit too easy just to say they don't make them like they used
to.
> One should ask, why they make rims that cannot be tensioned enough to
> keep spokes from unscrewing. Besides that, lateral strength of a
> wheel is compromised by low tension because in a side load enough to
> make one side of the wheel slacken, its lateral strength is
> immediately cut in half of what it normally is. That is where wheel
> collapse occurs in a side slip.
It sounds like that level of tension would be too low even for a
"modern" rim.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> I was wondering also if rim design has changed in any way to
>>> facilitate machine building. jim beam said rims these days are
>>> more rigid than the MA-2 was. When I built my CXP23 wheels, I was
>>> surprised by how easy it was. I just put the spokes in and
>>> carefully did them up by the same amount, and as soon as the
>>> tension started to get there, the wheels ran close to true without
>>> needing much correction. I wonder if the more rigid rim had
>>> anything to do with this.
>> How much more rigid does a rim need to be to outlast wear on its
>> rim brake track, the one that tells you you need a new rim?
> I don't see the direct relationship between rigidity and life.
I don't either but "jb" touts greater rigidity that you mentioned.
The point is that we don't need more rigidity. We need more strength
at spoke locations to be able to tighten spokes adequately to prevent
loosening in use... and it isn't by making the rim thicker and
machining away the extra metal between spokes (at your expense).
>> That rims crack is an imbalance between structural strength and
>> point loading of spokes. In the days of yore, rim manufacturers
>> reduced rim weight until spoke tension could still be above the
>> level that would come undone in use. To achieve that they used
>> sockets and eyelets.
> But isn't it easier, cheaper and lighter to achieve that with
> threadlock instead? Provided tension is high enough that you don't
> get lateral collapse as you describe below, what's actually wrong
> with threadlock?
As I pointed out, a loosely spoked wheel is more subject to lateral
collapse than a reasonably tight wheel. Why tighten spokes at all?
> Also, haven't people been using linseed oil since the bygone days of
> myth, lore and yore anyway?
No. Of course bygone days were when Wheelsmith opened their store in
Palo Alto and bought a Holland Mechanics wheel building machine in the
1960's. That's when spoke prep and all the other glues began
emerging. I'm sure that long before that, wheel builders who built
24-spoke wheels for TT's used linseed oil, but it was uncommon because
most people rode 36-spoke wheels.
>> Then Mavic got bought by the ski binding folks who were accustomed
>> to a higher margin, so the scrapped the sockets and in some cases
>> even eyelets. Hard anodizing cracked rims circumferentially and
>> locally around spoke holes so they gradually gave that up, but they
>> refuse to make a rim with spoke socket inserts... to costly. BS,
>> rims cost at least fourfold what they did when the MA-2 was
>> scrapped. They tossed an MA-3 assuming users were too dumb to
>> notice the difference.
> I do have one problem with your account of history. Mavic don't
> have a monopoly and are subject to market forces. If they doubled
> their prices and made their products inferior, you would expect them
> to lose out to their competitors, and wouldn't we all be buying rims
> built like MA-2s from someone else?
They were the biggest and had the largest part of the market, and are
the leaders today. Others followed suit. You could say the same of
Campagnolo and Shimano. They are not alone... but almost.
> It might not be a completely efficient market, but all the same, it
> sounds a bit too easy just to say they don't make them like they
> used to.
Just look at what people wear and judge for yourself. The rave is
pre-faded and ragged jeans. Bicyclists wearing dark glasses in all
weather paying big prices for a piece of plastic, the most expensive
mass produced sun glasses around.
>> One should ask, why they make rims that cannot be tensioned enough
>> to keep spokes from unscrewing. Besides that, lateral strength of
>> a wheel is compromised by low tension because in a side load enough
>> to make individual spokes on one side of the wheel slacken, its
>> lateral strength is immediately cut in half of what it normally is.
>> That is where wheel collapse occurs in a side slip.
> It sounds like that level of tension would be too low even for a
> "modern" rim.
Yes...
Jobst Brandt
Ben C
>
>>>> I was wondering also if rim design has changed in any way to
>>>> facilitate machine building. jim beam said rims these days are
>>>> more rigid than the MA-2 was. When I built my CXP23 wheels, I was
>>>> surprised by how easy it was. I just put the spokes in and
>>>> carefully did them up by the same amount, and as soon as the
>>>> tension started to get there, the wheels ran close to true without
>>>> needing much correction. I wonder if the more rigid rim had
>>>> anything to do with this.
>
>>> How much more rigid does a rim need to be to outlast wear on its
>>> rim brake track, the one that tells you you need a new rim?
>
>> I don't see the direct relationship between rigidity and life.
>
> I don't either but "jb" touts greater rigidity that you mentioned.
> The point is that we don't need more rigidity.
Surely rigidity has advantages, just not directly related to lifespan?
jb mentioned for example that rims that lacked rigidity might be more
prone to developing flat-spots. I imagine they also might buckle or go
out of true more easily, but it's a complex structure and I'm not sure
how to compare a more rigid rim with looser spokes to a less rigid one
with tighter spokes.
[...]
>>> That rims crack is an imbalance between structural strength and
>>> point loading of spokes. In the days of yore, rim manufacturers
>>> reduced rim weight until spoke tension could still be above the
>>> level that would come undone in use. To achieve that they used
>>> sockets and eyelets.
>
>> But isn't it easier, cheaper and lighter to achieve that with
>> threadlock instead? Provided tension is high enough that you don't
>> get lateral collapse as you describe below, what's actually wrong
>> with threadlock?
>
> As I pointed out, a loosely spoked wheel is more subject to lateral
> collapse than a reasonably tight wheel. Why tighten spokes at all?
1. So they can support the rim while remaining in tension without
slackening and flexing in use, particuarly under lateral loads.
2. To stop the nipples unscrewing.
The question is, is the amount of tension required for 2 much greater
than that required for 1? If so, we might as well use threadlock rather
than sockets.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>>> I was wondering also if rim design has changed in any way to
>>>>> facilitate machine building. jim beam said rims these days are
>>>>> more rigid than the MA-2 was. When I built my CXP23 wheels, I
>>>>> was surprised by how easy it was. I just put the spokes in and
>>>>> carefully did them up by the same amount, and as soon as the
>>>>> tension started to get there, the wheels ran close to true
>>>>> without needing much correction. I wonder if the more rigid rim
>>>>> had anything to do with this.
>>>> How much more rigid does a rim need to be to outlast wear on its
>>>> rim brake track, the one that tells you you need a new rim?
>>> I don't see the direct relationship between rigidity and life.
>> I don't either but "jb" touts greater rigidity that you mentioned.
>> The point is that we don't need more rigidity.
> Surely rigidity has advantages, just not directly related to
> lifespan? jb mentioned for example that rims that lacked rigidity
> might be more prone to developing flat-spots. I imagine they also
> might buckle or go out of true more easily, but it's a complex
> structure and I'm not sure how to compare a more rigid rim with
> looser spokes to a less rigid one with tighter spokes.
>>>> That rims crack is an imbalance between structural strength and
>>>> point loading of spokes. In the days of yore, rim manufacturers
>>>> reduced rim weight until spoke tension could still be above the
>>>> level that would come undone in use. To achieve that they used
>>>> sockets and eyelets.
>>> But isn't it easier, cheaper and lighter to achieve that with
>>> threadlock instead? Provided tension is high enough that you
>>> don't get lateral collapse as you describe below, what's actually
>>> wrong with threadlock?
>> As I pointed out, a loosely spoked wheel is more subject to lateral
>> collapse than a reasonably tight wheel. Why tighten spokes at all?
> 1. So they can support the rim while remaining in tension without
> slackening and flexing in use, particularly under lateral loads.
> 2. To stop the nipples unscrewing.
> The question is, is the amount of tension required for 2 much
> greater than that required for 1? If so, we might as well use
> threadlock rather than sockets.
Spoke nipples cannot unscrew unless the spokes become slack. That is
not supposed to occur if you want a strong wheel. Therefore, 1=2.
You seem to have the answers so why are you asking me? All this glue
in the threads is a cover for crummy wheels. The problem is that many
riders never put the wheel to the test and believe that all is well.
I recall reading in this forum arguments why Spinergy Rev-X wheels are
the wave of the future, the proponents having no reason to believe
they were any good other than the claims in the promotions. But they
are stiffer... and who cares.
As you see, they are gone.
Jobst Brandt
John Thompson
> John Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Geez. I've been building wheel for almost 30 years and never had to use
>> locktite.
> have you had any rims crack?
Not to my knowledge. 30 years represents hundreds, if not thousands of
wheels, and obviously I haven't kept track of all of them. But I do
still have the 2nd set of wheels I ever built on my touring bike --
never broke a spoke and still true as the day they were built.
NB: I have had some rim failures, but always on wheels I knew were risky
-- e.g. radial spoking, extreme dish, etc. Pretzel-type failures in
those cases, not cracked rims.
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
John Thompson
> I think that DT Swiss, Sapim, and Wheelsmith all sell threadlock goo
> for spokes and nipples. It seems to be mainly for low-spoke-count
> wheels. I don't know if the stuff is any better than the venerable
> linseed oil often mentioned on RBT.
I try to avoid low spoke count wheels, as I see no particular advantage
to them and at least a couple significant disadvantages.
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
G.T.
"jim beam" <spamv...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:XdmdnaIWo-GVCnbY...@speakeasy.net...
> G.T. wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> that's untrue. /you/ don't care for thread lockers, but you don't ride
>>> modern highly dished wheels and don't have experience with their
>>> non-drive side spokes going loose when honking up a hill. you also
>>> advocate excess spoke tension that cracks rims.
>>
>> There goes the rim manufacturer apologist.
>>
>> Greg
>
> eh? where's the apology? excess spoke tension cracks rims.
So the solution is to run slack spokes because the rims are poorly designed?
Greg
Vee
jim beam
why are you buying that herring about "collapse" with slack spokes?
wheels collapse when rims buckle, not spokes slacken. and rims buckle
either through excess lateral load, /or/ excess compression.
compression approaching the compressive buckling limit will have a rim
much closer to collapse than a rim with lower compression.
fogel has a pic hosted on my lardy ass on a wheel with zero spoke
tension and 6 missing spokes at the bottom. no collapse.
jim beam
just repeating something you read from an underinformed source?
jim beam
> someone writes:
>
>>>>> I've inherited a MTB wheels with half a dozen broken nipples for
>>>>> the rear and a couple for the front (no broken spokes, just the
>>>>> nipples). ....
>
>>>> The nipples are probably alloy, not brass. Alloy nipples will
>>>> crack apart if you don't use the right spoke wrench - brass will
>>>> simply round off.
>
>>> You may mean aluminum (brass is an alloy).
>
>> Well, apparently in some circumstances/places alloy is the name
>> applied to what'd probably be referred to as aluminum or possibly
>> aluminium in other settings. Besides, does anyone actually use
>> chemically "pure" AL in the first place, isn't it all alloys as
>> well?
>
> If the primary component is aluminum, we call it aluminum, if it is
> titanium, we call it titanium, for steel it's steel, not aloy steel.
steel /is/ an alloy jobst - *iron* is the primary component. and
aluminum alloys are colloquially called "alloy", not "aluminum".
G.T.
Why do I need to know rim design when it's clear that Mavics have
completely turned to crap? I've experienced enough spoke pull through
and splits on modern Mavic rims that it's pretty obvious. Funny that my
18 year old MA-2s are doing just fine.
Greg
--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>> G.T. wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamv...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:XdmdnaIWo-GVCnbY...@speakeasy.net...
>>>> G.T. wrote:
>>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that's untrue. /you/ don't care for thread lockers, but you don't
>>>>>> ride modern highly dished wheels and don't have experience with
>>>>>> their non-drive side spokes going loose when honking up a hill.
>>>>>> you also advocate excess spoke tension that cracks rims.
>>>>> There goes the rim manufacturer apologist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg
>>>> eh? where's the apology? excess spoke tension cracks rims.
>>>
>>> So the solution is to run slack spokes because the rims are poorly
>>> designed?
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>> "poorly designed"??? what do /you/ know about rim design? or are you
>> just repeating something you read from an underinformed source?
>
> Why do I need to know rim design when it's clear that Mavics have
> completely turned to crap?
er, is that a technical argument? because from where i'm sitting that
looks like an opinion.
> I've experienced enough spoke pull through
> and splits on modern Mavic rims that it's pretty obvious. Funny that my
> 18 year old MA-2s are doing just fine.
>
> Greg
>
do you build with a tensiometer? have you built with a tensiometer,
adhered to rim manufacturer spoke tension and still experienced pull
through? truthfully? how do the tensions between these different
wheels compare?
besides, analyze like with like. measure the spoke bed wall thickness
on your ma2's and compare them to the spoke bed thickness on your
"crap". then let us know the results so we can assess.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Jim,
For those interested, here's the picture of that 32-spoke wheel with
six spokes removed at the bottom and a 205-pound rider putting as much
of his weight on the front of the bike as he can:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/205lbs.jpeg
The inset enlargement shows the Park spoke tension gauge reading 0
tension while attached to the spoke at roughly 11 o'clock.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jim beam
thanks carl.
Ben C
> Ben C wrote:
>> On 2007-03-05, jobst....@stanfordalumni.org <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>>> One should ask, why they make rims that cannot be tensioned enough to
>>> keep spokes from unscrewing. Besides that, lateral strength of a
>>> wheel is compromised by low tension because in a side load enough to
>>> make one side of the wheel slacken, its lateral strength is
>>> immediately cut in half of what it normally is. That is where wheel
>>> collapse occurs in a side slip.
>>
>> It sounds like that level of tension would be too low even for a
>> "modern" rim.
>
> why are you buying that herring about "collapse" with slack spokes?
If the tension is really low, I'm sure you're going to have structural
problems with the wheel. I doubt however that the recommended tension in
a wheel built with a modern rim is so low the wheel collapses, since if
it did we'd hear about more collapses.
But correct tension does seem to be low enough to cause nipples to
unscrew without threadlock. That's why I asked in another post, is the
amount of tension required to prevent collapse and the amount of tension
to prevent the nipples unscrewing the same? Because if you need _extra_
tension to keep the nipples from unscrewing, threadlock sounds like a
simpler solution than designing the rims specially so they can hold the
extra tension.
Jobst said something along the lines of: the nipple can unscrew if the
spoke goes slack, and if spokes are going completely slack, then the
wheel isn't strong enough. Therefore the amount of tension required to
achieve both objectives is the same.
But does the spoke have to go slack for the nipple to unscrew? Things
that are done up quite tightly can work loose if they're pushed and
pulled in the right way. My headset lockring for example is quite good
at doing that.
Second, if the spokes go slack only occasionally, and you have a rigid
rim, perhaps you're OK. All the same I don't like the idea of spokes
going slack completely-- I think that leads to flexing and spoke
failure.
jim beam
be careful with that word "strong". increasing tension increases the
strength of nothing in a bicycle wheel.
> Therefore the amount of tension required to
> achieve both objectives is the same.
>
> But does the spoke have to go slack for the nipple to unscrew? Things
> that are done up quite tightly can work loose if they're pushed and
> pulled in the right way. My headset lockring for example is quite good
> at doing that.
the load for a spoke nipple is axial, so yes, loosening if due to
slackening. with a headset, there's lateral movement and that will
loosen threads easily - hence the l/h thread on l/h bike pedals.
>
> Second, if the spokes go slack only occasionally, and you have a rigid
> rim, perhaps you're OK. All the same I don't like the idea of spokes
> going slack completely-- I think that leads to flexing and spoke
> failure.
well, i run a mavic cosmos rear wheel on my commuter and those spokes go
slack all the time. straight pull spokes and nylock spoke nipples
however keep that thing perfectly true. and it doesn't collapse!
data...@yahoo.com
grassy field six feet up and one mile inland from the Gulf.
needing an auto tool for the bike, i opened a box to find: sockets and
all with rust spots forming. not that the sockets were wiped down.
so on a hot day-115-i laid everything out on a sheet and linseeded
insides outsides and allowed to cure.
i became a linseed fanatic: eg drill bits are linseeded after use.
all exposed bolt threads, nut\bolt surfaces axle nuts, lawyers lips,
axle seam asemblies on installation, frame paint chips, the frame
before mounting clamps
ahhh! no handwringing over rust. now for the next problem...
the question is raised-why no nipple unwind ?
is the answer-spokes come out of the nipples at an angle?
well, some tuner's spokes come out at a greater angle than other
tuner's
so the linseed or lock with the DT and Sapim covers the difference.
FURTHER:
cutting spokes out is a negative factor without first loosening
nipples in sequence: loosen alternate nipples in opposite quadrents.
average the pressure!
do I build the front with sapim and the back with DT pro lock or do
the front with...?
When do I do that after mounting cr-18/36? 570 deore? (moving back
north of the frost line or south of the asphalt line) there's durable
then there's fast...
Google's new method of search this post (group) search box with your
email address is super
AVOID! Two sided spoke wrenches: a total time waster, total dude
total. Expletive deleted
Oil may soften linseed but only acetone and sheep manure dissolves
(emulsifies) it.
Applying pcblaster to every nipple, using gravity to aid flow in or
down every day for 3-4 months is a useful approach to dissembling
"free" wheels.
Riders whose 16 spoke wheels last forever lead charmed lives.
Ben C
>> Second, if the spokes go slack only occasionally, and you have a rigid
>> rim, perhaps you're OK. All the same I don't like the idea of spokes
>> going slack completely-- I think that leads to flexing and spoke
>> failure.
>
> well, i run a mavic cosmos rear wheel on my commuter and those spokes go
> slack all the time. straight pull spokes and nylock spoke nipples
> however keep that thing perfectly true. and it doesn't collapse!
Ah, but there your spokes are straight pull. On the assumption that we
can't have them going slack if they've got elbows (or the elbows will
fail-- never mind about wheels collapsing or not), it seems that in
theory there should be no need for threadlock on a conventional wheel?
In other words, if the spokes are so loose they need threadlock not to
come undone, it's only a matter of time before they will start breaking
at the elbows.
Ben C
> for access, i stored the tool boxes in the 544 parked outside on a
> grassy field six feet up and one mile inland from the Gulf.
> needing an auto tool for the bike, i opened a box to find: sockets and
> all with rust spots forming. not that the sockets were wiped down.
> so on a hot day-115-i laid everything out on a sheet and linseeded
> insides outsides and allowed to cure.
> i became a linseed fanatic: eg drill bits are linseeded after use.
> all exposed bolt threads, nut\bolt surfaces axle nuts, lawyers lips,
> axle seam asemblies on installation, frame paint chips, the frame
> before mounting clamps
> ahhh! no handwringing over rust.
But presumably your tools and everything else you own and have smothered
with linseed now stink and are permanently sticky!
You're right though, it's good stuff.
> now for the next problem...
>
> the question is raised-why no nipple unwind ?
> is the answer-spokes come out of the nipples at an angle?
I think that might actually help them unwind. The spokes don't come out
of the nipples at an angle, but the nipples come out of the rim at a bit
of an angle. I thought it could get pulled from side to side a bit as it
cycled because of that, meaning perhaps it could work loose without the
spoke going completely slack. But JB and jb both reckon the nipple
unwinds only if the spoke goes slack.
> well, some tuner's spokes come out at a greater angle than other
> tuner's
> so the linseed or lock with the DT and Sapim covers the difference.
>
> FURTHER:
>
> cutting spokes out is a negative factor without first loosening
> nipples in sequence: loosen alternate nipples in opposite quadrents.
> average the pressure!
> do I build the front with sapim and the back with DT pro lock or do
> the front with...?
I think Sheldon said something like, if your two wheels are the same
either your back wheel is not strong enough or your front wheel is too
heavy. Not by much, but you get the idea.
I suppose you could swap your rims periodically as well, if you wanted
to eke them out, since the front gets the worst of the brake track wear,
and the rear the worst fatigue around spoke holes.
data...@yahoo.com
> But presumably your tools and everything else you own and have smothered
> with linseed now stink and are permanently sticky!
linseed, according to johnson, polymerizes or in common parlance,
plasticizes: is not hard or sticky. that's what linseed does in
florida. takes hmmm a week?
a trick to try. know the bagrain chinese tools wal has on the bottom
shelf- the $2 vice grips or the $7 longnose vice grips(superduper)
get one slather it inside and out completely with linseed, place the
coated tool in the wal plastic grocerybag, tie shut and toss on the
shelf fro 2-3 weeks. depends on the temp. maybe a month in michigan,
right?
the linseed plasticizes ooops sorry poymeizes. ah and the coating is
now invisible! ya just rustproofed ur cheap tool. amazing
>
> > now for the next problem...
>
> > the question is raised-why no nipple unwind ?
> > is the answer-spokes come out of the nipples at an angle?
>
> I think that might actually help them unwind. The spokes don't come out
> of the nipples at an angle, but the nipples come out of the rim at a bit
> of an angle. I thought it could get pulled from side to side a bit as it
> cycled because of that, meaning perhaps it could work loose without the
> spoke going completely slack. But JB and jb both reckon the nipple
> unwinds only if the spoke goes slack.
oh my, you left out stress relief? search 'brandt stress relief'
>
> I think Sheldon said something like, if your two wheels are the same
> either your back wheel is not strong enough or your front wheel is too
> heavy. Not by much, but you get the idea.
>
> I suppose you could swap your rims periodically as well, if you wanted
> to eke them out, since the front gets the worst of the brake track wear,
> and the rear the worst fatigue around spoke holes.
sheldon b has a point. if the bike industry is gonna get completely
strung out on weight then the two wheels are different at both end of
the performance spectrum: in hd touring, a 35c rear and a 32c front is
best for 700c bikes honest injun
jim beam
good, an analytical thinker - yes, true. but as you surmised earlier,
there's a fine line. too slack, and you would indeed get spoke
breakage. too tight and you get rim cracking. solution: build to rim
manufacturer spoke tension spec.
Ben C
>
>> But presumably your tools and everything else you own and have smothered
>> with linseed now stink and are permanently sticky!
>
> linseed, according to johnson, polymerizes or in common parlance,
> plasticizes: is not hard or sticky. that's what linseed does in
> florida. takes hmmm a week?
> a trick to try. know the bagrain chinese tools wal has on the bottom
> shelf- the $2 vice grips or the $7 longnose vice grips(superduper)
> get one slather it inside and out completely with linseed, place the
> coated tool in the wal plastic grocerybag, tie shut and toss on the
> shelf fro 2-3 weeks. depends on the temp. maybe a month in michigan,
> right?
> the linseed plasticizes ooops sorry poymeizes. ah and the coating is
> now invisible! ya just rustproofed ur cheap tool. amazing
Good tip, although bargain tools usually plasticize themselves the first
time you use them, long before they go rusty.
What I might try linseeding is my home-made jerry-built truing stand
which is just unpainted mild steel and might rust even though I keep it
indoors.
data...@yahoo.com
get strung out on surface prep! chose a method. ignore. wipe (water,
thinner...) brush, rotary brush, pin scrape, thinner acetone,
alcohol... and wipe on linseed. or wipe on and then paint over later
with rusto. paint over rusto with latex
like who paints sockets right. paint the floor jack but sockets? that
why sockets are plated. sockets are plated so people who live by the
ocean can linseed sockets
> > now for the next problem...
> > the question is raised-why no nipple unwind ?
> > is the answer-spokes come out of the nipples at an angle?
> I think that might actually help them unwind. The spokes don't come out
> of the nipples at an angle, but the nipples come out of the rim at a bit
> of an angle. I thought it could get pulled from side to side a bit as it
> cycled because of that, meaning perhaps it could work loose without the
> spoke going completely slack. But JB and jb both reckon the nipple
> unwinds only if the spoke goes slack.
oh my, you left out stress relief? search 'brandt stress relief'
READ THIS ATRICLE
Ben C
>> I think that might actually help them unwind. The spokes don't come out
>> of the nipples at an angle, but the nipples come out of the rim at a bit
>> of an angle. I thought it could get pulled from side to side a bit as it
>> cycled because of that, meaning perhaps it could work loose without the
>> spoke going completely slack. But JB and jb both reckon the nipple
>> unwinds only if the spoke goes slack.
>
> oh my, you left out stress relief? search 'brandt stress relief'
>
> READ THIS ATRICLE
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/stress-relieving.html
Thanks. I have already heard of this one, in fact I have badgered Jobst
himself about it quite extensively in this very NG.
Failure to stress relieve is supposed to lead to spokes breaking at the
elbow, not to them coming loose.
That's the theory anyway.
But if the process of stress relief is also releasing windup, or seating
the spokes into the hub (which JB doesn't buy), then not doing it might
make spokes come undone.
jb built a wheel without "stress relieving", and the spokes did come
loose after riding round the block.
data...@yahoo.com
muh website and searched for teflon was hub lube?
my theory is, based on the fact that when the wheel is and this is a
huge assumption at this location, done built i am fried with it so the
thought of stress relief by slamming the new wheel up and down on a
wooden tree stump is just NOT my idea of a good way to end the day so
i mount the wheel, on the bicycle wise guy, and go for a ride
rationalizing this escape from reality by telling myself running the
wheel in will improve the rather modest stress relieving i do what
with pinching the spokes together and exerting mild down pressure
thereafter.
but even with this sissy approach and my lack of ability to tune the
wheel to lbs-factory tightness without getting rim sine waves as THE
finished wheel spec-which is to say my spokes are too loose
the spokes are in fact definitely coming out of the nipples at an
angle
every time i bend a bolt or shaft and want the mechanism to unthread
from an exotic and unobtainable casting or worse hand filed whqazzit-
it will NOT come out nada
this here post's raison de etrah, no??
Ben C
> nono zeeee spokes break at hub from no hub lube. perhaps yawl been to
> muh website and searched for teflon was hub lube?
No, where's your website? I did suggest once oiling the elbow-end of the
spokes because I thought it might help them bend smoothly around the hub
flange without sticking and becoming unevenly supported. But it's
supposition, and anyway, with an aluminium hub the spoke sinks into the
softer aluminium a certain amount and therefore should end up well
supported anyway.
I've not heard any of the wheel gurus recommend oiling the hub end of
the spokes. A bit of linseed on the threads, and some oil or grease on
the nipples where they sit in the rim is supposed to be best practice.
For the latter I just rely on the fact that not far into the process
anything I touch is getting covered in linseed anyway.
> my theory is, based on the fact that when the wheel is and this is a
> huge assumption at this location, done built i am fried with it so the
> thought of stress relief by slamming the new wheel up and down on a
> wooden tree stump is just NOT my idea of a good way to end the day
> i mount the wheel, on the bicycle wise guy, and go for a ride
> rationalizing this escape from reality by telling myself running the
> wheel in will improve the rather modest stress relieving i do what
> with pinching the spokes together and exerting mild down pressure
> thereafter.
> but even with this sissy approach and my lack of ability to tune the
> wheel to lbs-factory tightness without getting rim sine waves as THE
> finished wheel spec-which is to say my spokes are too loose
> the spokes are in fact definitely coming out of the nipples at an
> angle
> every time i bend a bolt or shaft and want the mechanism to unthread
> from an exotic and unobtainable casting or worse hand filed whqazzit-
> it will NOT come out nada
> this here post's raison de etrah, no??
So you mean your spokes are actually ending up bent at the threaded end?
I suppose that would stop them coming loose.
data...@yahoo.com
Ahhh you pose an interesting question. WHY DO I LUBE IT AND YOU DO
NOT, WHY DOES EVERYONE DO NOT?
A DIGRESSION: WHEN I BEGAN WRITING (?) IN TECH FOR A CEREBRAL BREAK
FROM WRITING LEGAL PRO SE DOCUMENTS AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY COMPUTER,
COMMUTED TO ON BIKE SOMETIMES 16 OR MORE MILES ONE WAY, I WAS ATTACKED
SEVERAL TIMES VIA EMAIL.
WHAT DO YOU KNOW? I REPLIED THAT I KNEW VERY LITTLE ABOUT BIKES AND
THAT WAS MY CONTRIBUTION.
KNOWING LESS ABOUT MECHANICAL ENGINEERING HISTORY AND TECHNOLOGICAL
DEVEOPMENT IN THE MACHINE SHOP BUSINESS, I VAGUELY SPECULATE ON WHY
FOR EXAMPLE SUNTOUR HAD ONE TYPE KILLER DERAY ONLY TO BE WIPED OUT BY
SHIMANO'S SUPERIOR DERAY. WHY DID THE ELDER CAMPY EMPIRE WITH A SIMPLE
MECHANISM AND NOT ANOTHER TEN YEARS EARLIER?
SOMEONE DID RIGHT? AND I'M SURE OTHER PEOPLE LUBE HUBS BUT NOT MANY.
BUTBUTBUT MANY RIDERS BITCHBITCHBITCH ABOUT THE SPOKE ENDS BREAKING
OFF AT THE HUB: SEASONALLY ENDLESSLY. LIKE BAD ROD ENDS IN FLORIDA.
WHEN I THOUGHT WELL LUBE THE DAMN THING, I WAS RIDING ON THE ORIGINAL
TENSPEED, FREEWHEEL, STEEL RIMS TO 'ALLOY' BELGIAN 27" WITH A TIWANESE
THREE PINE TREE HUB THEN TO GENERIC SPOKES. DRIVE YOU NUTS WITH A
TOURING LOAD. HUB WORE LIKE BUTTER: 5900!
I WAS USING A STORAGE GARAGE WITH A SLIDING DOOR LOCK HASP. THE TEFLON
FINISH LINE WAX LUBES THE SLIDER PERFECTLY-LIKE BEAR GREASE ON XT HUBS
RIGHT? SO THE FL WOULD LUBE THE SIMILAR HUB/SPOKE MOTION AND SEAL OUT
ALL GRIT. I COULD TOOTHBRUSH THE DIRT AWAY ONCE A MONTH.
NOW WHY WOULD I DO THIS AND NOT THE RIDERS GOING BITCH BITCHBITCH IN
TECH ON THE SPOKES CRACKING OFF AT HUB END?
CAWS THEY'RE A BUNCH OF RECREATIONAL RIDERS WITH MULTISPEED BIKES AND
I'M A RADONEUR /COMMUTER WITH A TEN SPEED NOW MODERNIZED.
AHA! AND WHEN GOING FOR ADVICE WHO DO WE SPEAK WITH? MORE RECREATIONAL
RIDERS TURNED MASTER MECHANICS.ALL CLEAN MACHINE GUYS. SPIC AND SPAN
DUDES. THOSE BIKES ARE NEVER DIRTY. MY BIKE IS ALWAYS DIRTY. PEOPLE
TRY GIVING ME MONEY CAWS MY BIKE IS GRUBBY. BUT MY MAINTENANCE IS 3
HOURS/WEEK AT 100 WEEKLY MILES SO EG .TAPING THE REAR DERAY WITH
ELECTRICAL TAPE COVER TO DEFLECT DIRT GOES A LONG WAY IN REDUCING THE
3 HOURS.
WHY NOT DIRT BIKE RIDERS OR DIRT BIKE PRO MECHANICS: I DUNNO. I HAVE
VERY LITTLE CONTACT WITH THEM. I WAS READING ON THE TRANS SAHARA BIKE
RACE WON BY BMW. I WENT TO THE WEBSITE ONLY TO FIND TO MY COMPLETE
AMAZEMENT: A CHAIN DRIVE NOT A SHAFT. INCREDIBLE. BEYOND COMPRE. ONE
RIDE IN THE SAND AND COUGH UP $150 FOR NEW PARTS.
YEAH. ITS INTERESTING DEVELOPING BIKE IDEAS. THE BIKE HAS BEEN WITH US
FOR SO LONG NOW. THE BEGINNING OF THE TECH REVOLUTION IN PARSEC 1.
SOMEONE THOUGHT OF THIS ALREADY FERSURE.
I INVENTED A CHAIN RING GUARD DEFLECTS THE THROW OFF FROM THE FRONT
TIRE, REDUCES ACCUMULATION 50%. ONE CAN RIDE AN AFTERNOON AND NOT CRAP
UP THE CHAIN. I BRAINSTORMED IT OUT OF DESPERATION. I WAS ADVISED A
STOCKCAR MECHANIC THOUGHT OF IT IN 1958 AND A SIMILAR DEVICE EXISTS OR
EXISTED AS PRODUCTION IN JAPAN. BUT HERE? CAN'T GET ANYONE TO USE ONE.
THE HUB LUBE IS LEVEL WITH JB'S AND OTHERS CLASSIC INSTRUCTIONS ON
STRESS RELIEF: NOT LUBING THE SLIDING MECHANISM OF HUB/SPOKE IS
UNREASONABLE. BUT DEVELOPMENTWISE IT'S A RADONNEUR'S DEVELOPMENT AND
WHO RADONNNEUR'S? DIFFERENT THINK, YOU SEE?
FLORIDA HAS THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF VIOLENCE AND THE LOWEST LEVEL OF
INTELLIGENCE OF ANY STATE. I MEET ONE MORON AFTER ANOTHER. I TELL
PEOPLE; 'YOUR PANTS ARE ON FIRE" AND THEY CANNOT MAKE THE CONNECTIONS.
SO I'M USED TO IT AND OFF COURSE I DO IT TOO. SO YOU CAN WRITE: "LUBE
ZEEE HUB AND SHE NOOO BREAKEE OF DAH SPOKE ENDS"
AN NOBODY GONNA LISTEN NOHOW RIGHT? ???
Ben C
> Ahhh you pose an interesting question. WHY DO I LUBE IT AND YOU DO
> NOT, WHY DOES EVERYONE DO NOT?
[...]
> I WAS USING A STORAGE GARAGE WITH A SLIDING DOOR LOCK HASP. THE TEFLON
> FINISH LINE WAX LUBES THE SLIDER PERFECTLY-LIKE BEAR GREASE ON XT HUBS
> RIGHT? SO THE FL WOULD LUBE THE SIMILAR HUB/SPOKE MOTION AND SEAL OUT
> ALL GRIT. I COULD TOOTHBRUSH THE DIRT AWAY ONCE A MONTH.
> NOW WHY WOULD I DO THIS AND NOT THE RIDERS GOING BITCH BITCHBITCH IN
> TECH ON THE SPOKES CRACKING OFF AT HUB END?
> CAWS THEY'RE A BUNCH OF RECREATIONAL RIDERS WITH MULTISPEED BIKES AND
> I'M A RADONEUR /COMMUTER WITH A TEN SPEED NOW MODERNIZED.
> AHA! AND WHEN GOING FOR ADVICE WHO DO WE SPEAK WITH? MORE RECREATIONAL
> RIDERS TURNED MASTER MECHANICS.ALL CLEAN MACHINE GUYS. SPIC AND SPAN
> DUDES. THOSE BIKES ARE NEVER DIRTY. MY BIKE IS ALWAYS DIRTY. PEOPLE
> TRY GIVING ME MONEY CAWS MY BIKE IS GRUBBY.
[...]
> SO I'M USED TO IT AND OFF COURSE I DO IT TOO. SO YOU CAN WRITE: "LUBE
> ZEEE HUB AND SHE NOOO BREAKEE OF DAH SPOKE ENDS"
It's an interesting theory. But I never thought the spokes should be
moving around much down there, they should be squeezed quite tight
against the hub flanges.
I'm sure the subtle details of the way the spokes fit into the hub is
important in whether they break or not, and it's hard to know exactly
why some people get broken spokes and others not. Different spokes,
different build, different use... lots of variables. I can't see how the
oil could do any harm though, and who knows maybe it does some good.
data...@yahoo.com
spoke part in contac with the hub tries to move but 'sticks' while the
rimside section that's leaving the hub part keeps twisting away.snap.
are you saying the spoke is static, unmoving? a spoke is a torque rod.
that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a distant
land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB.
yeah. all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
stress relief, is it not? i hope so. its getting on some to find i
been using an incorrect spoke pattern. have you visited the unusual
spoke pattern website? next time i'm at the lbs i'll look at the
machine done wheels.
Ben C
> no theory-spokes break off on or near the bend from that movement-the
> spoke part in contac with the hub tries to move but 'sticks' while the
> rimside section that's leaving the hub part keeps twisting away.snap.
> are you saying the spoke is static, unmoving? a spoke is a torque rod.
I imagine that the spoke flexes a bit at the elbow in use, but doesn't
twist. What would make it twist? The flex is important, if the elbow
isn't well supported (e.g. if the shank is too long) then the flex can
result in significant bending and quite high stresses so the spoke
fatigues quickly.
It does seem to me possible that oil there would reduce the chance of
the spoke ending up supported on a high point of grit or hub
imperfection, so might help. Do you get the feeling that your spokes
definitely started failing less after you started lubing the hub holes?
> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a distant
> land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB.
> yeah. all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
> stress relief, is it not?
Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub end,
but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be visible or
only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think it was supposed
to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to ask JB.
Maybe aggressive spoke squeezing would bend the threads at the nipple.
The "Mavic method" (pressing the axle down on a block of wood) would be
less likely to. Probably another thing in its favour.
> i hope so. its getting on some to find i
> been using an incorrect spoke pattern. have you visited the unusual
> spoke pattern website?
What's the URL? I think boring old 3X is probably the best for 32H or
36H.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
static tension).
> Maybe aggressive spoke squeezing would bend the threads at the
> nipple. The "Mavic method" (pressing the axle down on a block of
> wood) would be less likely to. Probably another thing in its favour.
That's why there is a reason to improve the spoke line before final
tensioning and then follow with stress relief.
>> i hope so. its getting on some to find i been using an incorrect
>> spoke pattern. have you visited the unusual spoke pattern website?
> What's the URL? I think boring old 3X is probably the best for 32H
> or 36H.
I don't see what spoke pattern has to do with this.
Jobst Brandt
Ben C
> Ben C? writes:
[...]
datakoll> distant land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah.
datakoll> all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
datakoll> stress relief, is it not?
>> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
>> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
>> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
>> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
>> ask JB.
>
> That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
> yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
> measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
> static tension).
That's what I thought, thanks for confirming it.
>> Maybe aggressive spoke squeezing would bend the threads at the
>> nipple. The "Mavic method" (pressing the axle down on a block of
>> wood) would be less likely to. Probably another thing in its favour.
>
> That's why there is a reason to improve the spoke line before final
> tensioning and then follow with stress relief.
I was thinking if you grabbed a spoke pair and pulled it together very
hard you might bend the spokes where they leave the nipples, and perhaps
that's how datakoll ended up with his spokes bent there.
He also suggested this bend might prevent them unscrewing, which is
where this started-- whether you need threadlock or not.
Tim McNamara
Ben C <spam...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> I was thinking if you grabbed a spoke pair and pulled it together
> very hard you might bend the spokes where they leave the nipples, and
> perhaps that's how datakoll ended up with his spokes bent there.
On the rims with which I am familiar, the spoke nipple has enough
freedom that it appears to move with the spoke, preventing the spoke
from bending at the threaded end (at least noticeably, but I don't
recall ever checking with a straightedge). There may be rims that don't
allow the nipple to move. I wouldn't know, but someone who has built up
wheels with a wider range of rims than me might.
data...@yahoo.com
benC benC benC benC benC benC benC benC
Search google : 'spoke pattern' or 'spoke patterns'
"does seem to me possible that oil there would reduce the chance of.."
gnaw, teflon wax, not oil. Using oil on the hub is analogous to
spraying the chain with wd-40.
The wax is dripped into the hole, the spoke placed in the hole, then
when the wheel is laced up, the hole/spoke is filled with wax and the
hub surfaces in and out are filmed with protective wax. Off course
this is not concours
Q. Did the spokes stop snapping near or at the hub?
A. Damn right! And the lube stopped generic spokes from snapping.
also dramatically reduced hub hole wear in 5600 alloy
JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB-refering to jb's post
of march 9
" The change occurs at any high
tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
static tension)."
Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
unstrung state - yet strung?
"That's why there is a reason to improve the spoke line before final
tensioning and then follow with stress relief."
Q. What's a spoke line?
"....following with stress relief"
Q. After improving the spoke and and stress relieving
there will be NO SPOKE BEND WHERE THE SPOKE LEAVES THE NIPPLE AND
HEADS TOWARD THE HUB?
is that true following brandt's wheel building instructions?
"I don't see what spoke pattern has to do with this."
It's another old scandanavian drinking song: "who stacked the
cannonballs this morning?"
'Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim
"On the rims with which I am familiar, the spoke nipple has enough
freedom that it appears to move with the spoke,"
A. No, the nipples I know do not move even when lubricated with
teflon wax or linseed. Once tightened a bit, the nipples seat into the
ferrules and that's it.
"I was thinking if you grabbed a spoke pair and pulled it together
> very hard you might bend the spokes where they leave the nipples, and
> perhaps that's how datakoll ended up with his spokes bent there."
A. Right: that is part of the stress relief instruction I follow:
pinch spokes together.
I did not get to the lbs today but I have a spare set of cartridge
bearing specialized freewheel 23c racers in the closet holding up the
spare TT/messengers and those spokes are what? Bent coming out of the
nipples.
I assume, and off course jb knows fersure, that the geometry of the
bicycle wheel and seating of the nipple brings nipples' longitudinal
center axis extension to the left or right of the hub hole not
directly into the correct hub hole? In reality if not geometrically"
Is that true, not true or sometimes true?
jim beam
> On 2007-03-09, jobst....@stanfordalumni.org <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>> Ben C? writes:
> [...]
> datakoll> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a
> datakoll> distant land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah.
> datakoll> all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
> datakoll> stress relief, is it not?
>>> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
>>> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
>>> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
>>> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
>>> ask JB.
>> That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
>> yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
>> measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>> static tension).
>
> That's what I thought, thanks for confirming it.
think carefully. "stress relief" involves yielding - by definition. if
there's no yielding, there can be no stress relief. trying to assert
stress relief with "no measurable change in form" translates to
"yielding without yielding". typical jobstian b.s.
data...@yahoo.com
Ben C
> Ben C wrote:
>> On 2007-03-09, jobst....@stanfordalumni.org <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>>> Ben C? writes:
>> [...]
>> datakoll> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a
>> datakoll> distant land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah.
>> datakoll> all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
>> datakoll> stress relief, is it not?
>>>> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
>>>> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
>>>> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
>>>> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
>>>> ask JB.
>>> That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
>>> yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
>>> measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
>>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>>> static tension).
>>
>> That's what I thought, thanks for confirming it.
>
> think carefully. "stress relief" involves yielding - by definition. if
> there's no yielding, there can be no stress relief. trying to assert
> stress relief with "no measurable change in form" translates to
> "yielding without yielding". typical jobstian b.s.
I wouldn't call it b.s., but "measurable" is too strong a word. There is
a change in form of course, and you could measure it with the proper
equipment. But you wouldn't expect to see it on close inspection with
the naked eye.
But the main point we're clarifying here is that mechanical stress
relief according to the JB orthodoxy is not supposed to have anything to
do with bending the spokes at the thread end.
Ben C
>
>
> 951. 477.1389
>
> benC benC benC benC benC benC benC benC
>
> Search google : 'spoke pattern' or 'spoke patterns'
>
> "does seem to me possible that oil there would reduce the chance of.."
> gnaw, teflon wax, not oil. Using oil on the hub is analogous to
> spraying the chain with wd-40.
> The wax is dripped into the hole, the spoke placed in the hole, then
> when the wheel is laced up, the hole/spoke is filled with wax and the
> hub surfaces in and out are filmed with protective wax. Off course
> this is not concours
You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
> Q. Did the spokes stop snapping near or at the hub?
> A. Damn right! And the lube stopped generic spokes from snapping.
> also dramatically reduced hub hole wear in 5600 alloy
Now that is interesting.
> JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB-refering to jb's post
> of march 9
You've got to be careful here, "JB" is Jobst Brandt, "jb" is jim beam,
his nemesis.
> " The change occurs at any high
> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
> static tension)."
> Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
> maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
> unstrung state - yet strung?
Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
data...@yahoo.com
>
> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
> I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
> the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>
> Now that is interesting.
>
> > " The change occurs at any high
> > tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
> > static tension)."
> > Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
> > maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
> > unstrung state - yet strung?
>
> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
> intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
on the inside, no? cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
another old...
as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
suffered generic customers.
Ben C
>> I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
>> the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
>
>
> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>
>> Now that is interesting.
>
>>
>> > " The change occurs at any high
>> > tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>> > static tension)."
>> > Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
>> > maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
>> > unstrung state - yet strung?
>>
>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
>> intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
>
> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
> on the inside, no?
It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile on
the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the biggest
risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.
> cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
> another old...
> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
> suffered generic customers.
I had a close look at my wheels today and the spokes do leave the nipple
at a bit of an angle. The spoke goes into the rim at a bit of an angle
because of the crossing pattern. There's a slight angle between the
nipple and the rim, and the rest of the angle is between the spoke and
the nipple.
jim beam
> On 2007-03-10, data...@yahoo.com <data...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
>>> I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
>>> the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
>>
>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>> " The change occurs at any high
>>>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>>>> static tension)."
>>>> Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
>>>> maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
>>>> unstrung state - yet strung?
>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
>>> intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
>> on the inside, no?
>
> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile on
> the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the biggest
> risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.
i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the inside as
well as the outside.
my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke flange was
insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit angle created a
tensile stress component on the outside of the spoke.
fatigue initiating on the inside is what one might expect from normal
"aligned" loading.
>
>> cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
>> another old...
>> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
>> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
>> suffered generic customers.
>
> I had a close look at my wheels today and the spokes do leave the nipple
> at a bit of an angle. The spoke goes into the rim at a bit of an angle
> because of the crossing pattern. There's a slight angle between the
> nipple and the rim, and the rest of the angle is between the spoke and
> the nipple.
yes, but just like the bend where a spoke pair interleave, that stuff is
rarely a problem. [why jobst would get all anxious to "correct the
spoke line" at the nipple end but ignore the crossover point is
interesting, but the topic of another debate]. the real problem is the
load bending of tensile wire that has a dog-leg in one of its anchor
points. eliminate the dog-leg and you eliminate 90% of spoke fatigue.
Michael Press
Ben C <spam...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2007-03-10, data...@yahoo.com <data...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
> > JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB-refering to jb's post
> > of march 9
>
> You've got to be careful here, "JB" is Jobst Brandt, "jb" is jim beam,
> his nemesis.
Nemesis is the messenger of justice and divine
retribution. Is this what you mean to say?