1950's style hybrid electric bicycles

[Jeff Liebermann]

<http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/>
<http://www.agnellimilanobici.com>
1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old
nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation,
built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big
headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included.
It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[avag...@gmail.com]

psycho bike

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&ei=KpkzWYOzKqTXjwTHjKOwCQ&q=1950+bicycle&oq=1950+bicycle&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.3..0l2j0i8i30k1l3.12789.34783.0.38260.21.16.3.2.2.0.3326.8972.0j7j5j7-1j0j2.15.0....0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-img..2.19.5764.3..41.HZQfp6hzIk8#tbm=isch&q=1950+bicycle+cruiser

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 3 Jun 2017 22:26:15 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>psycho bike
>
>https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&ei=KpkzWYOzKqTXjwTHjKOwCQ&q=1950+bicycle&oq=1950+bicycle&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.3..0l2j0i8i30k1l3.12789.34783.0.38260.21.16.3.2.2.0.3326.8972.0j7j5j7-1j0j2.15.0....0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-img..2.19.5764.3..41.HZQfp6hzIk8#tbm=isch&q=1950+bicycle+cruiser

Learn to trim URL's. That should be:

<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=1950+bicycle+cruiser>

Also, those machines are missing all goodies. I don't see much in the
way of hybrid power, sprung suspension, kickstand, fenders, big
headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and a gas tank. If I'm going
to do the nostalgia thing, I want it all.

[DougC]

On 6/3/2017 8:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> <http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/>
> <http://www.agnellimilanobici.com>
> 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old
> nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation,
> built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big
> headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included.
> It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old.
>

It's kinda disappointing to go to all that work when he is using a cheap
frame and fork... It would look a lot better if those were done
custom--and that can still be done cheaply just by buying a cheap steel
frame and cutting out the tubes and re-using all the end parts.

Also I probably posted in the past: those monark reproduction forks are
scary. I got mine some years back now, but the bolts in it were made
wrong such that one-half of them would not stay tight. I had to machine
special shouldered bolts to make mine ride-able.
,,,
It's possible they've changed them since I suppose, I have not seen any
recent example IRL. The only more-recent one I've seen close-up photos
of online was just like mine; that guy had used loctite to try to get
the bolts to hold.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/4/2017 2:44 PM, DougC wrote:
>
> ... those monark reproduction forks are

> scary. I got mine some years back now, but the bolts in it were made
> wrong such that one-half of them would not stay tight. I had to machine
> special shouldered bolts to make mine ride-able.
> ,,,
> It's possible they've changed them since I suppose, I have not seen any
> recent example IRL. The only more-recent one I've seen close-up photos
> of online was just like mine; that guy had used loctite to try to get
> the bolts to hold.

That's a shame. While I'm not interested in either one, the Monark
design looks more sensible to me than the alternative shown at
http://www.designboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-design-week-2016-designboom-header.jpg
with the near-horizontal spring. That one pivots about the fork crown.
Seems to me you'd want the unsprung mass to be moving more vertically as
with the Monark, rather than almost horizontally.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

I think your memory is going, Jeff. At 15 you would already have been too smart to fall for this crap. " first [sic] apprenticed as an antique furniture restorer, his bikes resolve technical and aesthetic problems by adapting to continual changes in function and form." That's the designer speaking of himself in what he fondly imagines is the third person. Forget the resulting non sequitur and the uncapitalized sentence and the extra space -- we get enough of that illiterate shit here on RBT from Jeff Daniels -- but instead translate that sentence into English, in which it reads, "Because I'm only a journeyman antique furniture faker, whenever my bikes look like shit or fall apart [as Doug Cimperman points out], instead of fixing the problem, I leave it to bite the credulous buyer in the balls, and build my next monstrosity."

Even if this bike doesn't fall apart, as Doug says, and plants the rider on his face, there's another problem with that suspension. It pivots the lower steering inclination around the bottom of the head tube to compress a horizontal helical spring against the frame. Thus it "suspends" by moving the contact patch of the tire backwards and forwards, constantly changing the wheelbase of the bike and the effective angle determining the steering trail. In short, it is not a suspension device but a self-steering monstrosity, further aggravated by the uncontrolled weight transfer it causes. In addition the rear suspension commits the same self-steering by wheelbase-altering error, uncontrollaby adding or subtracting from the front error depending on the road and how true the bike tracks -- I'm not even smiling at that pun, because this bike will never track true even on a level, smooth road. The whole thing, if anyone ever manages to get it up to speed, say downhill, that bike will switch from dangerous understeer to lethal oversteer and back quite unpredictably, several times a second.

Frankly, I wouldn't want a clown with such a poor grasp of geometry as luca agnelli (his rendition of his name) to "restore" any furniture I may sit on, never mind "design" a bicycle I would (refuse to) ride.

Andre Jute
I ask for no more than competence. Is that really too much?

[avag...@gmail.com]

is possible a counter Italian Design culture exists ?

https://kenneturner.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kelly_pogo_earthday-ii.jpg?w=1000

[DougC]

Chill out, Andy

that fork IS a legitimate vintage design--albeit one that was only used
on kids' novelty bikes the last time around--
http://schwinncruisers.com/bikes/krates/

and I think the fork design goes back further than that,,, like, pre-WW2
but I'm not certain.

The Monark forks (the other style used on OP's link) are a 'real'
vintage design as well-
http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle121

and this design was cribbed from earlier pre-WW1-era motorcycles, though
I'm not sure of the exact brand...
(similar but different spring style)
http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/barbers-best/1920-harley-davidson-zb0z1601zhur

The Monark forks don't look the same as what I bought, so maybe they
have fixed some of the issues I saw--
https://monarkforks.com/

Nowadays they're not really intended to be functional suspension,
really. Low-speed, light-duty kid stuff. The forward-bent springer forks
common on lowrider bicycles sometimes reach rather ridiculous proportions.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 2:58:38 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> <http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/>
>> <http://www.agnellimilanobici.com>
>> 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old
>> nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation,
>> built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big
>> headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included.
>> It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old.

>I think your memory is going, Jeff.

I don't think so. There are many things I would rather forget, but my
bicycle preferences are not included.

>At 15 you would already have been too smart to fall for this crap.

At 15, I was an aspiring juvenile delinquent, where my concept of the
ideal bicycle was defined as the model that would make the fastest
getaway.

>"Because I'm only a journeyman antique furniture faker, whenever my
>bikes look like shit or fall apart [as Doug Cimperman points out],
>instead of fixing the problem, I leave it to bite the credulous
>buyer in the balls, and build my next monstrosity."

Isn't that the current trend in product design? Customer tested
devices, usually at the customers expense. That's what crowd funding
is really all about. You get a small discount to be the first person
among your tribe to own a genuine defective prototype. I bought a few
of those on Kickstarter which I soon found badly implemented good
ideas. When first to market is what makes the profits, it's tempting
to sell an unfinished design or prototype just to shave off a few days
from the product release date. I suspect the supply of second
childhood 70+ year old bicycle collectors, that are into bicycle
nostalgia, and have the money to pay for an imported semi-custom
machine, is rather limited. Whomever gets there first, will probably
end up with the entire market.

>Even if this bike doesn't fall apart, as Doug says, and plants the
>rider on his face, there's another problem with that suspension.
>It pivots the lower steering inclination around the bottom of the
>head tube to compress a horizontal helical spring against the frame.

(...)

Have you ever considered the possibility that these bicycles were not
meant to be ridden? They have the look of a "show" bicycle, which is
meant to demonstrate the discerning taste of the buyer, to those who
have no taste. The photos are from "craft-works exhibition at stone
island showroom in via savona 54" which is apparently a clothing
fashion outlet in a Milan mall, not a bicycle showroom:
<http://www.stoneisland.com>

Notice that no prices are mentioned, which suggests that they are
outrageously high. The best part of the bicycles shown is the
(probably) powder coated paint job, which is certainly not worth
risking a ding or a paint flake by riding it on the streets.

>The whole thing, if anyone ever manages to get it up to speed,
>say downhill, that bike will switch from dangerous understeer to
>lethal oversteer and back quite unpredictably, several times a second.

Well, when I was 15 years old, I rode around on something with a front
wheel that wobbled badly enough that steering was rather erratic.
However, since I didn't know that this was not normal, I simply
adapted and rider merrily and erratically down the sidewalk. Whomever
buys these bicycles is probably more concerned about how it looks than
how it rides.

Also, since these bicycles were made to be shown, not ridden, in the
unlikely event that someone actually tries to ride one, it will be
very very slowly. That's the only way to insure that the owners
riding companions can get a good look at the machine and are thus able
to contrive admiring comments. Therefore, I wouldn't worry much about
steering and mechanical difficulties.

>Frankly, I wouldn't want a clown with such a poor grasp of
>geometry as luca agnelli (his rendition of his name) to
>"restore" any furniture I may sit on, never mind "design"
>a bicycle I would (refuse to) ride.

No problem. If I end up with one, I won't let you ride it.

Personally, I like it, not because of the engineering or design, but
because it conglomerated into one machine, all the worst design
aspects of 1950's bicycles. Bicycle kitsch perhaps?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=kitsch&tbm=isch>

>I ask for no more than competence. Is that really too much?

Careful what you ask for. It may not be what you really need or want.
In this case, anyone who demonstrates competence soon starts a dot com
company, gets involved way over his head, produces ever decreasing
quality products, gets sued by his stockholders, and ends up either
impoverished, or retired in opulent splendor after a government
bailout. Competence is not the road to quality products.

[AMuzi]

Gresham smiles from beyond the grave.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Andre Jute]

You fellows are such cynics!

Andre Jute
There is hope for humanity yet. There has to be.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I doahno if fork crit is on target...

concept may sell as variable trail with low speeds n ballon tires gives an over the top lope to the ride.

The Scott may use a spring fork

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://goo.gl/6jAI7E

[Jeff Liebermann]

Maybe, but it's getting really difficult to support a positive
attitude. We have an internet that has become a disruptive force at
every level of society and the economy. We have a health care system
that is built on payment for treatment instead of payment for results,
which is promoting being sick as a lifestyle. We have an economy that
is in danger of outsourcing itself to its competitors. We have a
government that is doing it's best to function in the best interests
of everyone except its constituency. We have inflation in key sectors
that don't appear on the charts (food, housing, transportation,
energy). We have a retirement system that has produced entitlements
that are impossible to fund. We have a postal system that is working
for the benefit of retirees, junk mail companies, and congressional
budget raiders. We have a patent system that supports patent trolls,
encourages litigation, and promotes patenting everything in sight. We
have a transportation infrastructure, that was mostly built in the
1950's, that is now crumbling, rotting, or rusting away. We have a
president, who was elected as the lesser evil, and is living up to
that description. We have 80% of business startups failing in the
first 18 months. We have a business philosophy that tends to
privatize profits and socialize costs. We have an education system
that runs at the speed of the slowest students and ignores those with
any real potential. We have a country where 99% of the bicycles sold
are imported. And, that's just the USA. Other countries have similar
problems with the added bonus of regional and ethnic problems. If
there is any hope for humanity, it's not going to come from the mess
we have today. Little wonder there is some interest in retro-tech,
nostalgia, and vintage bicycles.

[John B.]

On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 23:46:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

A Australian friend forwarded this to me via email:

The definition of the word Conundrum is:
Something that is puzzling or confusing.
Here are six Conundrums of socialism in the United States of America.

1. America is capitalist and greedy - yet half of the population is
subsidized.
2. Half of the population is subsidized - yet they think they are
victims.
3. They think they are victims - yet their representatives run the
government.
4. Their representatives run the government - yet the poor keep
getting poorer.
5. The poor keep getting poorer - yet they have things that people in
other countries only dream about.
6. They have things that people in other countries only dream about -
yet they want America to be more like those other countries.

Think about it! And that, my friends, pretty much sums up the USA in
the 21st Century. Makes you wonder who is doing the math.

These three, short sentences tell you a lot about the direction of our
current government and cultural environment:

1. We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few
lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions
of a few lunatics. Funny how that works. And here's another one
worth considering:

2. Seems we constantly hear about how Social Security is going to run
out of money. But we never hear about welfare or food stamps running
out of money! What's interesting is the first group "worked for" their
money, but the second didn't. Think about it.....and Last but not
least :

3. Why are we cutting benefits for our veterans, no pay raises for our
military and cutting our army to a level lower than before WWII, but
we are not stopping the payments or benefits to illegal aliens.
----------------------

I have no idea whether any of this is correct or makes sense but it is
very reminiscent of much of the complaints I see on the Internet.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

If you're not angry, you're not paying attention.

[AMuzi]

It may well be that 'The Constitution is not a suicide
pact', but now that we've fully abandoned it, this suicide
pact is all we have.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Cambodia is in election..

from the NYT Briefing

Every year, The Economist magazine assesses the state of democracy across the world, based on five categories: electoral process and pluralism; civil liberties; the functioning of government; political participation; and political culture.
In 2016, the most recent list, Cambodia ranked 112th, just ahead of Myanmar and Iraq. (Norway was first, the U.S. ranked 21st, and North Korea was last.)
In Cambodia, the opposition claimed gains in Sunday’s election that could shake Prime Minister Hun Sen’s grip on power. He has governed since 1985.

But as Sophal Ear, a Cambodian-American political scientist, observed, “At some point, things change, whether you want them to or not.”

read some ConLaw, you'll feel better.

[AMuzi]

> In Cambodia, the opposition claimed gains in Sunday’s election that could shake Prime Minister Hun Sen’s grip on power. He has governed since 1985.
>
> But as Sophal Ear, a Cambodian-American political scientist, observed, “At some point, things change, whether you want them to or not.â€

>
> read some ConLaw, you'll feel better.
>
>

There are various rankings of everything social and
political, usually biased. 'Democracy' is usually
understood in most places as 'mob rule', hardly a paragon in
and of itself.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 07:48:16 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>If you're not angry, you're not paying attention.

If I were not angry, it must mean that I'm satisfied with the current
situation, which of course is not the case. Therefore, I must
obviously be angry. Welcome to the digital world of extreme
everything.

However, that's not reality. In between rebellious anger and
complaisant acceptance of the status quo, is a wide range of attitudes
the actions. Each is a response to either a specific major problem, a
wide range of minor problems, proposed solutions, and a cost/benefit
calculation. If the outcome seems beneficial and can be achieved with
little cost or risk, then things start to happen. However, if the
status quo is tolerable, the cost of change is high, and the risks of
making things worse is probable, then nothing happens. Eventually, we
reach a balancing point, somewhere between utopia and hell, where most
everyone is moderately satisfied with the current situation, and
nothing changes. Welcome to the analog world of the greatest good for
the greatest number, also known as mass mediocrity.

WWI was the war to end all wars. WWII was to make the world safe for
democracy. If there is going to be a WWIII, it will be highly
xenophobic and based on "Make America Great Again". Welcome to
retro-politics.

The real problem with American politics is that we don't have a real
leader or leadership. Without the drive provided by a leader,
American politics would come to a grinding halt, with all political
efforts aimed at maintaining the status quo and redistributing the
existing assets. The succession of the last 50 years of presidential
losers should demonstrate clearly that we unable and unwilling to
elect a real leadership. So, we rot in place and then complain that
our position as the world leader in everything is disappearing. It
never occurs to us that in order to be a leading nation, we must have
a functional leader. Mob rule by the GUM (great unwashed masses)
isn't sustainable.

The solution is easy. Change everything(tm).

[Doug Landau]

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:58:38 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> <http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/>
> <http://www.agnellimilanobici.com>
> 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old
> nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation,
> built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big
> headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included.
> It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old.

Is that the saddle from the pack of cards?

[Doug Landau]

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 10:26:17 PM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> psycho bike
>
> https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&ei=KpkzWYOzKqTXjwTHjKOwCQ&q=1950+bicycle&oq=1950+bicycle&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.3..0l2j0i8i30k1l3.12789.34783.0.38260.21.16.3.2.2.0.3326.8972.0j7j5j7-1j0j2.15.0....0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-img..2.19.5764.3..41.HZQfp6hzIk8#tbm=isch&q=1950+bicycle+cruiser

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.funcheap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2Frobot-bike.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsf.funcheap.com%2Fsan-jose-bike-party-9%2F&docid=inPdLxH5eZ8-OM&tbnid=iaiMBrnvtLgJ-M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjd3qP2n6fUAhUnhlQKHavzCDEQMwhTKCMwIw..i&w=532&h=415&bih=694&biw=1382&q=san%20jose%20bike%20party&ved=0ahUKEwjd3qP2n6fUAhUnhlQKHavzCDEQMwhTKCMwIw&iact=mrc&uact=8

[Jeff Liebermann]

No. It's a genuine Brooks saddle. From the web site:
<http://www.designboom.com/wp-content/gallery/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-design-week-2016-designboom-gallery13.jpg>
and from the Brooks catalog page:
<http://www.brooksengland.com/en_us/saddles/b73-1.html>

If you're planning to emulate the playing card style, I suggest you
first read "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen.

[Andre Jute]

I ride on a Brooks B73 every day. It is a very fine saddle, though a bit tricky to mount to a modern micro-adjustable post. See
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=8829.msg60311#msg60311

That fellow missed missed a trick not fitting the Brooks honey-color saddle available in the B73 line.

The brown on my saddle isn't a Brooks color either (their brown is much darker). I made the custom color by buying a Honey saddle and dipping it in neatsfoot oil for 20 minutes.

Andre Jute
Only the best is good enough