And yet another flat!

[Tom Kunich]

I did the ride out to Pleasanton over rough roads going very fast on the downhills. Returning I got almost back into Castro Valley and the bike took off into the middle of the road. I carefully got it under control and pulled off of the road.. While looking for the puncture which had to be pretty large since it didn't make any sounds and was instantly flat I fond a lot of thorns (it is thorn time of year.) But they all seemed to be stopped by the cord of the tire and not the source of a flat. Looking still closer I found that a quarter of the tire had been sliced as if by a razor in such a manner that the tread was almost peeled off and the cord cut through in a large enough area that the new tube blew instantly. Called the wife again. 37 miles and 1750 feet of climbing.

The morning was cold enough that I dressed warm and then by the time I was walking again the direct sun made the air in the high 70's.

Who in the hell throws razor blades out on the road? It had to be a razor blade because you couldn't see the slice except as a slight pattern on the tire until you squeezed the tire around there.

[Roger Meriman]

Flint will do that and indeed was used as a cutting edge.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

Didn't make any sound? A blown tube will make definitely a sound I can tell you that. It is like a gun shot.

Lou

[John B.]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 02:05:44 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Batteries failing, razor blades scattered across the road, 65 mph down
hills... where will it end.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

With reference to Mr Krygowski's comment recently, I see two
replies but not Mr Kunich;s original post. (using
Thunderbird and Eternal-September)

Regarding the tire slice, Mr Holtman is correct. More,
there's no likely way a razor blade (any style) positioned
itself to slice a casing. They lie flat on the roadway.
Metal debris from passing vehicles or a complex shape of
bottle glass shard are much more likely.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

Later today in the Global Jihad.

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2023/10/report-hamas-calls-for-global-jihad-invasion-of-israel-attack-jews-worldwide-on-oct-13/

[Tom Kunich]

It went flat immediately. The replaced tube took two seconds before blowing. I was riding along near the end of my normal Thursday ride. I'm just lucky that there was no traffic at that moment because suddenly the bike veered out into the middle of the street. It took me several minutes to find the cut and it was virtually invisible except for what appeared to be the slight tread pattern on the Pro4. Pushing on it caused the it to open up and it appeared to be the tread sliced away from the cord of the tire though I imagine that the cord was also cut cleanly through. I had just descended 5 miles down a hill at 25 mph and I was only 7 miles from home on a 37 mile ride. I had just topped a rise and was only going about 8 mph and heard nothing.

[Tom Kunich]

Andrew, the cut is perfectly clean and covers one side of the tire over into the sidewall. It is so smooth a cut that you can't see it except as a barely visible line. I rotated the tire two full rotations trying to discover what caused the flat pulling out the thorns which you could tell never penetrated the cord. Then I could just barely see a line and pushed on it and perhaps a half inch of tread opened up. I will look at it more closely today to see now far in it goes.

But can you suggest anything that can produce a cut that fine without making any sounds?

[Frank Krygowski]

Same here.

> Regarding the tire slice, Mr Holtman is correct. More, there's no likely
> way a razor blade (any style) positioned itself to slice a casing. They
> lie flat on the roadway. Metal debris from passing vehicles or a complex
> shape of bottle glass shard are much more likely.

Agreed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I suppose it was perhaps some metal shard. The slice was divided into two areas along a single line. They entered at perhaps a 45 degree angle. I couldn't see a puncture in the cord on the inside but it must have been there because the tube had two large holes directly adjacent to one another. A patch covered them both easily.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:16:32 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Batteries failing, razor blades scattered across the road, 65 mph down
>hills... where will it end.

That's easy. Tom built up his Ridley Helium bicycle using a frame
that was rated for a maximum rider weight of 95kg (209lbs).
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
"... such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit of 95kg"
Tom hasn't disclosed how much he weighs, but has mentioned that he is
6ft 4in tall:
<https://www.bannerhealth.com/staying-well/health-and-wellness/fitness-nutrition/ideal-weight>
<https://www.disabled-world.com/calculators-charts/height-weight.php>
The ideal weight for Tom's height would be 182 to 222 lbs (82.5 to
100.7 kgs). That overlaps the maximum rider weight for the Ridley
Helium 95 kg (209 lbs). I predicted disaster during the first ride,
but that hasn't happened. Maybe self disassembly will occur after a
few more rides.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:02:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Looking still closer I found that a quarter of the tire had been sliced as if by a razor in such a manner that the tread was almost peeled off and the cord cut through in a large enough area that the new tube blew instantly.

Tom. Are you sure you are an engineer? Engineering is done using
numbers. Your description of your latest mishap is missing some
numbers and details. If you only want to complain that the world is
out to get you, numbers are not necessary. However, if you expect
some help determining what happened, numbers are very useful.

Missing:
- Bicycle maker and model?
- Tire maker, model and size?
- Inner tube maker and size?
- Front or rear wheel?
- Tire air pressure?
- What's a "new tube"?
- What is "large enough" in numbers and units?
- Which quarter of the tire was sliced by the razor?
- Approximate air temperature?
- Approximate road condition? Any debris?

Photos are always helpful.

[John B.]

Sort of "sour grapes" isn't it.

First the Muslims hammer the Jews and then the Jews retaliate and
hammer the Muslims harder then they were hammered. And it just isn't
fair, we are told.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Proof that Israel was there first.

"A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses.
When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!'
He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.'
The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't even there then.'
The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech."

Btw, HAMAS stands for Hides Amongst Mosques And Schools

Cheers

[AMuzi]

Murdering hippies at a party and babies is in your opinion
equivalent to destroying weapons caches and jihadi fighters?

[AMuzi]

We're at an absurdist constructed point where Judea is
renamed 'west bank' to exclude Jews.

[John B.]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 16:13:27 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

Actually the Israelites, the blokes who escaped from Egypt, weren't
there first. Both the Christian and Jewish holy books are quite
explicit that there were "others" living in the area when the Israelis
arrived from Egypt who both attacked the Israelites and were attacked
by them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

??????

In the most recent episode the "Palestinians", i.e., people from Gaza,
fired a large number of rockets, said to be as many as 5,000, into
Israeli held territory and followed it with an invasion by armed
forces. And, surprisingly, the Israelis replied.

As for Jihad fighters? Are you talking about America in the late
1700's? "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my
country."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Huhh? How is the situation with the native Americans going? Just asking.

Lou

[AMuzi]

A leap there.

I see substantive differences between Nathan Hale or Andrea
Doria or El Cid and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Timothy McVeigh.

[AMuzi]

A complex problem of institutional victimhood promoted by
people who ought to know better.

But historically not different from Dutch East Indies.

[Tom Kunich]

You're talking to a wall. Remember, the high point in Slocomb's life was taking maintenance reports from crews and sending them to the appropriate shops. He loves the fact that Flunky and the others respect his opinions.

[Tom Kunich]

Isn't easy to imply that a movement to colonize foreign countries is institutionally wrong? In fact the numbers of American Indians displaced were miniscule and most lived improved lives with the arrival of the colonists. That is a lot more than could be said of the Dutch East Indies company which was formed entirely to take every possible advantage of less civilized people.

[Frank Krygowski]

These conflicts, conquests and oppressions seem to have been going on
almost everywhere, at almost every scale, almost forever. Heck, I can
remember when the kids on "our" street didn't want to go to the next
street because that was "their" street.

In one of Jared Diamond's books, he pointed out that throughout human
history, if one man in a jungle came across an unknown man from an
unknown group, he'd need some excuse to not kill him.

I think that's only a slight exaggeration of a trait that's hard wired
into human brains - as well as the brains of most species.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
bugs, and each other?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>
> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
> bugs, and each other?

We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:10:33?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>
>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>> bugs, and each other?
>
> We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
>
>http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

<SMILE> Thanks for proving my point. Did you even read your cite,
Junior?

from Junior's cite

" In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
disease and despotism, that curse our existence."

Here's more....

Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of
the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...

...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....
While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
nutrients....

Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of
hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9"
for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height
crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5'
for women.... Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the
farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative
of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia
(evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a
theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in
general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine,
probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at
birth in the pre-agricultural community was bout twenty-six years,"
says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was
nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious
disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."...

Farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition... ran
the risk of starvation if one [single] crop failed... clump[ing]
together in crowded societies... led to... parasites and infectious
disease.... Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise
of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearnce of large cities.
Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming
helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions....
Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c. 1500 B.C.... royal skeletons
were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on the average,
one instead of six cavities or missing teeth).... Farming may have
encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well... more frequent
pregnancies... with consequent drains on their health....

With the advent of agriculture and elite became better off, but
most people became worse off.... Bands had to choose between feeding
more mouths by taking the first steps toward agriculture, or else
finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the former solution,
unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the
transient abundance they enjoyed until population growth caught up
with increased food production. Such bands outbred and then drove off
or killed the bands that chose to remain hunter-gatherers, because a
hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy hunter...

https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/01/reading-jared-diamond-1997-agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race.html

[AMuzi]

Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?

*or similar as you prefer

[Frank Krygowski]

Mr. Tricycle is so cute when he tries to think!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 2:58:47 PM UTC-4, loriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>
> >

> > We would all be better off if you didn't constantly display your willful ignorance with such pride.
> >
> >http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
>
> <SMILE> Thanks for proving my point.

lol....it did nothing of the kind, you astoundingly dumb ass, your cut-n-paste below proves exactly one thing: that you know how to cut-n-paste. It does nothing to prove _anything_ you wrote.

>Did you even read your cite,
> Junior?

yes, dumbass, I did, you obviously didn't (or maybe you did, but your proven 4th-grade reading level just prevented you from actually understanding it).

>
> from Junior's cite
>
> " In particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of
> agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life,
> was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never recovered.
> With agriculture came the gross social and sexual inequality, the
> disease and despotism, that curse our existence."

Which says absolutely nothing about "surmised that humanity would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms, bugs, and each other"

>
> Here's more....
>
> <snipped cut-n-paste, if anyone wants to read it, please refer to the dumbass post where he did the cut-n-paste>

Care to list anywhere that "surmised that humanity would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms, bugs, and each other"?

There is no reference in any of that to:
- living in the jungle
- eating worms or bugs
- cannibalism

Here's the relevant passage the dumbass _thought_ he was cleverly alluding to:

"While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
nutrients...."

News flash, you fucking idiot, he's referring to what is more commonly known as a "Paleo Diet". Fewer processed foods (especially grains), more wild meat and non-grain vegetables. Note especially where Diamond writes "the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other nutrients"

(NB: There is some controversy as to how much more (or less) healthy a 'paleo' diet may or may not be over what is considered a 'balanced' diet. One thing is for sure, it's quite a bit more healthy than the diet most USAians are used to - fast food, processed sodium/HFC laden foods)

Floriduh dumbass: making the Dumbshine state proud in his willfull ignorance.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Again, for Krykowski's attention...

Jared Diamond (1997): Agriculture: The Worst Mistake in the History of

the Human Race http://tinyurl.com/dl20161210a: "The adoption of
agriculture, supposedly our most decisive step toward a better life...

...was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never

recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual

inequality, the disease and despotism, that curse our existence....
For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and
gathering: we hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants....

While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other
nutrients....

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski

What a shame for Krugowski to read a book and not even understand what
the author was saying

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 3:05:14 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/14/2023 1:58 PM,

> Without pasta tomatoes and wine* what's the point of life?
>
> *or similar as you prefer

We were just gifted this:
https://www.ellembeegift.com/products/thank-you-craft-brew-breweries-for-making-my-drinking-problem-seem-like-a-neat-hobby-flour-sack-tea-towel

A favorite author of mine is Hunter S. Thompson
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/127000-good-people-drink-good-beer

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

He very clearly _wasn't_ saying we should:
- live in the jungle
- eat worms or bugs
- become cannibals

Floriduh dumbass- making the dumbshine state proud

[Catrike Rider]

For the record, I don't completely discount Diamond's theory, but I
disagree that agriculture was what put us in the mess where we are in
today. I think it was industrialism, and the movement of people from
rural to urban areas to accommodate it.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:30:13 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Errrr, when a person says something was a mistake, he's insinuating
that it would be better if it had never happened, Dummy. Many people
who are hunter gatherers without any agriculture live in the jungle,
eat worms and bugs, and occasionally eat, or at least kill, each
other.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 3:41:31 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:30:13 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 3:26:18?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> >> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 10/14/2023 1:10 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
> >> >> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
> >> >> bugs, and each other?
> >> >
> >> >Mr. Tricycle is so cute when he tries to think!
> >> What a shame for Krugowski to read a book and not even understand what
> >> the author was saying
> >
> >He very clearly _wasn't_ saying we should:
> >- live in the jungle
> >- eat worms or bugs
> >- become cannibals
> >
> >Floriduh dumbass- making the dumbshine state proud
> Errrr, when a person says something was a mistake, he's insinuating
> that it would be better if it had never happened, Dummy.

Too bad you can't learn from your own mistakes.

> Many people
> who are hunter gatherers without any agriculture live in the jungle,
> eat worms and bugs, and occasionally eat, or at least kill, each
> other.

Is that so? Care to cite a reference? I can:

https://globalhealth.duke.edu/news/what-can-hunter-gatherers-teach-us-about-staying-healthy#:~:text=Their%20diet%20consists%20of%20various,throughout%20their%20entire%20adult%20lives.

'living in the jungle' may be an arguable point, but that's about it - just an arguable point. Everything else you wrote is simply abject ignorance - as usual.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:27:11 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

"I don't see how you can respect yourself if you must look in the
hearts and minds of others for your happiness.”

--Hunter S. Thompson

[AMuzi]

Uh, as noted earlier this afternoon that was a correct
synopsis. Impolitic perhaps but not wrong.

[AMuzi]

Uh, the lack of agriculture, settlements and the rest of
culture does in fact mean that.

[AMuzi]

Is that fundamentally different than the shift from nomadic
to agricultural culture? In degree maybe but just a
furtherance of the same principle.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

And yet he committed suicide by pulling the trigger of a .45 with the barrel in his mouth

"Rolling Stone published what Douglas Brinkley described as a suicide note written by Thompson to his wife, titled "Football Season Is Over.

" : No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun — for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your age. Relax — This won't hurt."

So much for self respect, dumbass.....

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

no, it doesn't

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

no, it's completely wrong. No where in any of Diamonds writing does he advocate any of that.

[AMuzi]

He may have had, like most suicides, good reason.

At any rate it is the ultimate in individual choice and his,
not ours, to make.

[Tom Kunich]

This is the idiocy of the college age. There isn't anything that they can't dispute or refute. In fact agriculture started so far back in time that no one can place its beginning. So the claim that there were massive changes in height are so preposterous as to be nothing more than imagination to make a point.

People like Delong also deny that Moses lived to be 120. It is beyond their understanding that bacteria dangerous to humans had not yet developed and that viruses didn't even exist. Without disease the lifespan of human's was tremendously long. What's more: agriculture was not "invented" in one place but through human intelligence almost everywhere on Earth without any connection between these areas. There is archeological evidence that there was agriculture at least in 12,000 BC. There is extremely limited archeological evidence of the size and weight and health of people of that time. This was at the end of the last Ice Age. we only have evidence of human's from some 200,000 years ago and haven't a clue how they lived. Why did the Jews use the term "Garden of Eden"?

In short - Jared Diamond is a stupid ass.

[Tom Kunich]

What sort of an ass would believe that inequality STARTED with agriculture and not with size and strength. Did he never go to grade school?

[Catrike Rider]

Yes, but I'm a big fan of farming and it's lifestyle, before the big
corporate takeover, that is.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

You're missing the point.
Dumbass constantly extolls selfishness and abhorrence of any benefits to socialization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization), He noted that Thompson expressed similar sentiments, yet Thompson committed suicide as a result of depression.

"This past February, with his health failing, Hunter was even more glum than usual. "This child's getting old," he muttered with stark regularity, an old-timey refrain that mountainmen used to utter when their trailblazing days were over. Depressed and in physical pain from hip-replacement surgery, he started talking openly about suicide, polishing his .45-caliber pistol, his weapon of choice. He was trying to muster the courage to end it all."
https://web.archive.org/web/20080619074031/http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/7605448/football_season_is_over

Regardless of the faux sociological theories the dumbass promotes, humans are social creatures. We are meant to interact with other humans. Dumbass is wrong - humans didn't succeed because they were selfish, they succeeded because they organized into societies. Sure some individuals may do better without human contact. They are outliers, and generally contribute little to the success of the species. In short, dumbass is just that, a dumbass, who rationalizes the fact that he can't maintain friends with bullshit about being an introvert. In reality he just a narcissistic douchbag that most people can't stand being around.

[Tom Kunich]

Hunter Thompson was famous for living a year and riding Harley's with the Hell's Angels. This book was largely about Sonny Barger who Liebermann has almost entirely denied even existed. Using ANY words from a writer as anything other than the thoughts in his head at one moment in time is silly on the very face of it.

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:20:17 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

I wonder if Flunky can EVER make one single intelligent statement. What does Hunter Thompson have to do with Catrike? It is like reading a moron trying to out Stupid himself.

[Frank Krygowski]

No, it absolutely does not. To take the points one by one:

There have been countless hunter gatherer cultures that lived nowhere
near jungles.

It's not necessary to eat worms or bugs to be a hunter gatherer.

Nor is it necessary to be a cannibal.

Come on, Andrew, you're smarter than that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 13:16:48 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Suicide is not necessarily related to a loss of self respect.

[AMuzi]

There's also a lot written about the synthesis effect of
having many people in the same or closely related study
areas near each other for enhanced intellectual (inventive,
etc) development.

[Tom Kunich]

If it was, Flunky would have killed himself 30 years ago.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 13:36:18 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 4:20:17?PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/14/2023 3:16 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

Of course, humans organized into societies because it was in their
self interest to do so.

> In reality he just a narcissistic douchbag that most people can't stand being around.

..and yet Junior is following me around like bee on a petunia.

[Frank Krygowski]

Diamond did NOT say humanity "would be better off." Did you not notice
the linked article began by listing three important benefits of
agriculture? The remainder of the article described evidence for
detriments which are not often considered.

But Diamond does not even attempt to thoroughly compare the countless
advantages of settled civilization with the disadvantages he listed.
(Benefits vs. detriments - there's that same concept that trips up so
many in this forum!) He does not advocate returning to hunter-gatherer
lifestyles, or claim it would be a net benefit.

The worst an intelligent person can say is that Diamond chose an
attention-getting title for his magazine article - and given what we
know (or should know) about articles and editing, it's very likely the
choice of headline was a magazine editor's, not Diamond's.

If anyone would like to see some actual intelligent discussion of the
article in question, here's one source.
https://equitablegrowth.org/agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race-todays-economic-history/

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

WHOOSH

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Funny coming from a narcissistic douchbag who harps on nearly every one of franks post..

[Frank Krygowski]

"I'm always bitchy." That applies to many posters here.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 16:43:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/14/2023 4:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/14/2023 2:30 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 3:26:18?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass

>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:16:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/2023 1:10 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised that humanity
>>>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and ate worms,
>>>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr. Tricycle is so cute when he tries to think!
>>>> What a shame for Krugowski to read a book and not even understand what
>>>> the author was saying
>>>
>>> He very clearly _wasn't_ saying we should:
>>> - live in the jungle
>>> - eat worms or bugs
>>> - become cannibals
>>>
>>> Floriduh dumbass- making the dumbshine state proud
>>
>> Uh, the lack of agriculture, settlements and the rest of culture does in
>> fact mean that.
>
>No, it absolutely does not. To take the points one by one:
>
>There have been countless hunter gatherer cultures that lived nowhere
>near jungles.
>
>It's not necessary to eat worms or bugs to be a hunter gatherer.
>
>Nor is it necessary to be a cannibal.
>
>Come on, Andrew, you're smarter than that.

Diamond was obsessed with jungle folks in New Guinnea, but even then,
perhaps, the canibalism was a stretch. However, hunter gatherers do
depend upon the random availability of food sources, and when the good
sources aren't available, they must do with what is available.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:03:12 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Funny coming from a loser douchbag who harps on nearly every one of my
posts..

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 17:01:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<LOL> He said it was a mistake...

Did you not notice
>the linked article began by listing three important benefits of
>agriculture? The remainder of the article described evidence for
>detriments which are not often considered.
>
>But Diamond does not even attempt to thoroughly compare the countless
>advantages of settled civilization with the disadvantages he listed.
>(Benefits vs. detriments - there's that same concept that trips up so
>many in this forum!) He does not advocate returning to hunter-gatherer
>lifestyles, or claim it would be a net benefit.
>
>The worst an intelligent person can say is that Diamond chose an
>attention-getting title for his magazine article - and given what we
>know (or should know) about articles and editing, it's very likely the
>choice of headline was a magazine editor's, not Diamond's.

Yet he very clearly said that the development of agriculture and the
shift away from hunter gatherer culture was a terrible mistake.

[John B.]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:22:50 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>Again, for Krykowski's attention...

The thesis is utter bullshit. The oldest human remains found that can
be used to determine height are probably those from a site in Africa.
Named "little foot" was about 4ft, 4 inches tall. Which corresponds
well with other remains of pre historic man found.
Added to that prehistoric man lived short lives - perhaps 20 - 25
years.

I believe that the "Eskimos" of Greenland and the pigmies of the
Kalahari desert were hunter-gatherers well into the present era. Small
family groups, relatively short lived.



--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Are you old enough to remember what farming without "big corporate",
you know like the ones that made tractors, hay bailers, power milkers,
etc? When I was a boy there were still a few people farming "by hand",
as it were. Plowing with a team, hand milking the cows, cutting hay
with a scythe. etc. An all day - from can to can't - job every day of
the year.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But, industrialization which allowed people to move off the farm and
into town was what created a market for farm goods and allowed farming
to grow from a substance level to a business.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/14/2023 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> The thesis is utter bullshit. The oldest human remains found that can
> be used to determine height are probably those from a site in Africa.
> Named "little foot" was about 4ft, 4 inches tall. Which corresponds
> well with other remains of pre historic man found.
> Added to that prehistoric man lived short lives - perhaps 20 - 25
> years.

The thesis you appear to be referring to has nothing to do with what I
originally said about human (and other) conflicts. I said "In one of

Jared Diamond's books, he pointed out that throughout human history, if
one man in a jungle came across an unknown man from an unknown group,
he'd need some excuse to not kill him. I think that's only a slight
exaggeration of a trait that's hard wired into human brains - as well as
the brains of most species."

The tricycle rider's response was to introduce a completely separate
point in order to mock Jared Diamond. It had nothing to do with what we
had been discussing, which was territorial conflict between nations,
ethnic groups, etc.

I don't mind reasonable topic drift. But Mr. Tricycle's use of snarling
mockery to derail a fairly reasonable conversation is like something Tom
would do, only more obnoxious.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 07:44:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/13/2023 9:20 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 20:02:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/13/2023 5:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 07:56:07 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/13/2023 5:16 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 02:05:44 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 2:02:36?AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> I did the ride out to Pleasanton over rough roads going very fast on the downhills. Returning I got almost back into Castro Valley and the bike took off into the middle of the road. I carefully got it under control and pulled off of the road.. While looking for the puncture which had to be pretty large since it didn't make any sounds and was instantly flat I fond a lot of thorns (it is thorn time of year.) But they all seemed to be stopped by the cord of the tire and not the source of a flat. Looking still closer I found that a quarter of the tire had been sliced as if by a razor in such a manner that the tread was almost peeled off and the cord cut through in a large enough area that the new tube blew instantly. Called the wife again. 37 miles and 1750 feet of climbing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The morning was cold enough that I dressed warm and then by the time I was walking again the direct sun made the air in the high 70's.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Who in the hell throws razor blades out on the road? It had to be a razor blade because you couldn't see the slice except as a slight pattern on the tire until you squeezed the tire around there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Didn't make any sound? A blown tube will make definitely a sound I can tell you that. It is like a gun shot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Batteries failing, razor blades scattered across the road, 65 mph down
>>>>>> hills... where will it end.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Later today in the Global Jihad.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://americanmilitarynews.com/2023/10/report-hamas-calls-for-global-jihad-invasion-of-israel-attack-jews-worldwide-on-oct-13/
>>>>
>>>> Sort of "sour grapes" isn't it.
>>>>
>>>> First the Muslims hammer the Jews and then the Jews retaliate and
>>>> hammer the Muslims harder then they were hammered. And it just isn't
>>>> fair, we are told.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Murdering hippies at a party and babies is in your opinion
>>> equivalent to destroying weapons caches and jihadi fighters?
>>
>> ??????
>>
>> In the most recent episode the "Palestinians", i.e., people from Gaza,
>> fired a large number of rockets, said to be as many as 5,000, into
>> Israeli held territory and followed it with an invasion by armed
>> forces. And, surprisingly, the Israelis replied.
>>
>> As for Jihad fighters? Are you talking about America in the late
>> 1700's? "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my
>> country."
>
>A leap there.
>
>I see substantive differences between Nathan Hale or Andrea
>Doria or El Cid and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Timothy McVeigh.


??? A revolutionary spy? Fighting against a King, who was anointed by
God?
How is that different from, oh say, Timmy, who was punishing the
Government for their actions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 07:15:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 5:52:50?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/14/2023 4:54 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 3:05:13?AM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 10/13/2023 6:13 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> "A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses.
>> >>> When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!'
>> >>> He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.'
>> >>> The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't even there then.'
>> >>> The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech."
>> >>>
>> >>> Btw, HAMAS stands for Hides Amongst Mosques And Schools
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers
>> >> We're at an absurdist constructed point where Judea is
>> >> renamed 'west bank' to exclude Jews.
>> >
>> >
>> > Huhh? How is the situation with the native Americans going? Just asking.

>> >
>> > Lou
>> A complex problem of institutional victimhood promoted by
>> people who ought to know better.
>>
>> But historically not different from Dutch East Indies.

>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>Isn't easy to imply that a movement to colonize foreign countries is institutionally wrong? In fact the numbers of American Indians displaced were miniscule and most lived improved lives with the arrival of the colonists. That is a lot more than could be said of the Dutch East Indies company which was formed entirely to take every possible advantage of less civilized people.

Tommy, the N. American settlers and later the U.S. citizens were
killing "Indians" from 1610 until 1911. That's 300 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_massacres_in_North_America


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:12:02 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Indeed I am. We had tractors, but we also had a team of horses, as did
our neighbors. Horses were handy because they could be started and
stopped by voice command leaving my dad free to walk along picking up
loose hay or corn shocks and putting it on the wagon. Sadly, the team
was gone before I was big enough to drive them, but I remember riding
on the wagon. WE had milking machines, but I knew how to hand milk,
too. The summer before I turned nine years old I was driving the
tractor, pulling a baler with a man stacking hay on the hay rack
behind. The summer before I was driving the small tractor raking hay
into windrows I believe that learning responsibilities and being
proud of my labor related accomplishments at an early age benefited me
for the rest of my life.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:17:33 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

...and now it's grown to the corporate level.

[Catrike Rider]

Awww, Krygowski (RBT's chief "snarling mocker" of all activities he
doesn't himself engage in) objects to having his reading choices
mocked. Yet he did seem to approve of Jarad Diamond's mockery of
modern western culture's food preference for domesticated meat and
cultivated fruits and vegetables.

Perhaps Frankie would like to try the food preferences of the
head-hunting cannibals that Diamond spent so much time living with.

[Catrike Rider]

Uses of insects as human food in Papua New Guinea, Australia, and
North-East India: Cross-cultural considerations and cautious
conclusions

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03670244.1997.9991513

[John B.]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:59:06 -0400, Catrike Rider

But that's true of any successful business, isn't it? The Wright
brothers started out selling bicycles, built what was hardly more then
a powered kite, and grew into a company - Curtiss-Wright - that was
for a period the largest aviation firm in the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:50:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I don't denigrate business in general, I simply don't approve of the
vast centralization via corporate structures. Curtiss-Wright is an
example.

[John B.]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 05:52:13 -0400, Catrike Rider

Well (:-) people eat lobsters, and pay about $8.00 a pound for them
(:-) Now take a magnifying glass and look at a scorpion (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:05:46 -0400, Catrike Rider

Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
could it? Or a supersonic airplane?
Or sell as cheap as Amazon. or, or, or...
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I see your ability to count is on par with your ability to read - 4th grade at best. I engage you selectively, especially when you're at your narcissistic douchiest. Like
- the ar-16 was a weapon the military never wanted and never used
- there's no such thing as 'taking the lane'
- Diamond 'surmised' we should live in the jungle, eat worms or bugs, become cannibals

I ignore the vast majority of your posts since they are completely devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value, much like I would most likly ignore you in general since you are pretty much devoid of any socially or intellectually redeeming value.

Floriduh dumbass making the dumbshine state proud.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I'd put them on the same level with the exception of the mechanics of cycling. At least the dumbass admits he doesn't generally know what he's doing.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:13:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Some people eat a lot things I won't eat. Scorpians, for instance.

I've eaten lobster tail, but it's very near the bottom of my list of
food preferences.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:20:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I think I prefer a world without jet engines, supersonic airplanes, or
Amazon, but that's just me.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 7:20:46 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
> Well, a back yard shop could hardly develop and build a jet engine,
> could it?

Sure they could. Necessity is the Mother of Invention, especially when your beer is warm

https://asciimation.co.nz/beer/

(no, not these Mothers of Invention)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q1hfFsLnAg

[Tom Kunich]

After he showed that he couldn't read a simple C program I wrote him off as being nothing more than another Liebermann who touts an engineering degree without the ability to actually engineer ANYTHING that doesn't contain vacuum tubes. Flunky is nothing more than a self centered little bitch crying names at everyone else for his own failures.

[AMuzi]

On 10/14/2023 4:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/14/2023 4:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/14/2023 2:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/14/2023 1:10 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:00:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/2023 8:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/14/2023 4:54 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>   How is the situation with the native Americans
>>>>>>> going? Just asking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A complex problem of institutional victimhood promoted
>>>>>> by people who
>>>>>> ought to know better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But historically not different from Dutch East Indies.
>>>>>

>>>>> These conflicts, conquests and oppressions seem to have
>>>>> been going on
>>>>> almost everywhere, at almost every scale, almost
>>>>> forever. Heck, I can
>>>>> remember when the kids on "our" street didn't want to
>>>>> go to the next
>>>>> street because that was "their" street.
>>>>>

>>>>> In one of Jared Diamond's books, he pointed out that
>>>>> throughout human
>>>>> history, if one man in a jungle came across an unknown
>>>>> man from an
>>>>> unknown group, he'd need some excuse to not kill him.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's only a slight exaggeration of a trait
>>>>> that's hard wired
>>>>> into human brains - as well as the brains of most species.
>>>>

>>>> Ah, yes, Jared Diamond. Isn't he the guy who surmised
>>>> that humanity
>>>> would be better off if we still lived in the jungle and
>>>> ate worms,
>>>> bugs, and each other?
>>>

>>> Mr. Tricycle is so cute when he tries to think!
>>>
>>

>> Uh, as noted earlier this afternoon that was a correct
>> synopsis. Impolitic perhaps but not wrong.
>

> Diamond did NOT say humanity "would be better off." Did you

> not notice the linked article began by listing three
> important benefits of agriculture?  The remainder of the
> article described evidence for detriments which are not
> often considered.
>
> But Diamond does not even attempt to thoroughly compare the
> countless advantages of settled civilization with the
> disadvantages he listed. (Benefits vs. detriments - there's
> that same concept that trips up so many in this forum!) He
> does not advocate returning to hunter-gatherer lifestyles,
> or claim it would be a net benefit.
>
> The worst an intelligent person can say is that Diamond
> chose an attention-getting title for his magazine article -
> and given what we know (or should know) about articles and
> editing, it's very likely the choice of headline was a
> magazine editor's, not Diamond's.
>

> If anyone would like to see some actual intelligent
> discussion of the article in question, here's one source.
> https://equitablegrowth.org/agriculture-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race-todays-economic-history/
>

OK that's a fair point. Merely decrying agriculture and
settled culture only indirectly implies that hunt/forage is
better.

[AMuzi]

And the tallest human population are the agricultural
masters and omnivores of Nederlands.

[AMuzi]

The brilliant writer Jigs Gardner (who farmed and raised his
family with minimal technology in NH and Nova Scotia for 40
years) expounded on the difference between the real,
complex, demanding and hard work of actual farming vs urban
refugee dilettantes 'playing' at a dreamy 'lifestyle'.

[AMuzi]

+1

World food production continues to increase on less land
with less labor (excepting some reduction from 2020~2021
disruptions).

[AMuzi]

Regarding, "throughout human history, if one man in a jungle

came across an unknown man from an unknown group, he'd need
some excuse to not kill him."

Agriculture, fixed property and structured human interaction
lessen that effect. Not enough to eliminate suicide bombers
and such, but less.

[AMuzi]

Everything you need to know in a minute and a half:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIYkhb2NjfE

[AMuzi]

Same childhood made my tough sensible girlfriend. One small
tractor, a team for winter logging and work as you describe,
hand milking two dozen cows and enough work to fill the
childrens' day every day.

[AMuzi]

I don't have a beef with corporate entities per se (having
started, bought, sold and dissolved several myself). The
capital requirements and regulatory burden of modern
agriculture skew against single proprietors. Within living
memory, a man could raise a family on 100 acres with two
dozen cows, buy new equipment every few years and build
savings. That's over.

OTOH food is relatively cheaper and more plentiful with
greater (species and seasonal) variety than ever.

In short, it's more complex than 'evil corporations ruined
the bucolic country life'.

[AMuzi]

And stymied US aeronautical development for nearly twenty
years by defending indefensible patents against Curtiss.
Bright guys but with their own foibles and failings.

[AMuzi]

Uh, No A10 then. Not much of a world IMHO.

[Catrike Rider]

Diamond clearly proclaimed that the transition from hunter-gatherer to
agriculture was a terrible mistake.

[Catrike Rider]

I'll wager that she loved it, even then, with the blisters and sweat.
I surely did. Not a single farm kid that I knew, and I knew plenty,
would have traded the life for anything else.

[AMuzi]

Which, as Mr Krygowski notes, implies but doesn't claim
superiority of hunt/gather over fixed settlement and
agriculture.

[AMuzi]

Yes, that's true.

But it's hard to sort familiarity from objective values.
Heck, Russians of a certain age pine for the 'good old days'
of Stalin. Really.

Note photo dates:
https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-communist-party-supporters-take-part-rally-portrait-soviet-dictator-josef-stalin-may-day-moscow-russia-image53199781

https://blogs.voanews.com/russia-watch/2011/12/22/russia-moves-into-arctic-oil-frontier-with-a-lax-safety-culture/russia-protest/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/9238626/May-Day-demonstrations-and-celebrations-around-the-world.html

[Catrike Rider]

I'm not against corporations in general, only with how they've been
allowed to grow into massive all powerful, often-unidentified
entities. How many people know that they're buying a new Dodge Ram
from a corporation named Stellantis?

[Catrike Rider]

Oh darn, I hadn't expected my world to have bad guys.

[Catrike Rider]

What else is there?