Lights = manufacturers moving to non-replaceable batteries

[Sir Ridesalot]

I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.

It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

Their EXP series have removable LiIon cells and a USB charge
port. Nice design, USA made.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[avag...@gmail.com]

doahn panic avoid..


https://www.google.com/#q=cateye+bicycle+lights&tbs=vw:l,p_ord:pd&tbm=shop

[Jeff Liebermann]

If the light can be charged by a 5v USB charger, then you can get an
external cell phone battery charger and just plug it in when you need
more battery power.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=external+cell+phone+usb+battery&source=lnms&tbm=isch>

Watch out for the ma-hr ratings as they all lie (to varying degrees).
I think one of the smaller batteries will be sufficient. Something
inexpensive like this and add your own 18650 battery:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/301694045938>

There are also hand crank dynamo, but methinks that would require too
much cranking to be useful:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=usb+hand+crank+charger&tbm=isch>
I carry one to loan or give to anyone that wants to borrow my AC
charger (and who never seems to give it back).

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Gary Young]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 4:46:23 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.
>

The Fenix BC30 and BC21 use non-proprietary 18650 li-ion cells. I bought the BC30 so that I could use the stash of cells I had accumulated for various headlamps, and I'm very pleased with it. You'll need to buy a separate li-ion charger, but they can be had for $20 or so.

[Gary Young]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 6:37:28 PM UTC-5, Gary Young wrote:
<snip>

>
> The Fenix BC30 and BC21 use non-proprietary 18650 li-ion cells. I bought the BC30 so that I could use the stash of cells I had accumulated for various headlamps, and I'm very pleased with it. You'll need to buy a separate li-ion charger, but they can be had for $20 or so.

Correction: the Fenix BC21R has a built-in usb charger (or you can use an external charger).

[Barry Beams]

Your discussion shows how tough it is for a new brand to get awareness in the customer's mind, let alone shelf space in the stores.
My Oculus, by Barry beams, features field replaceable batteries, and extra-long burn times with standard size off-the-shelf batteries compared to other lights at the same power levels.
These were two of the mandatory design goals, to take away the battery-phobia that other lights cause for the user. Oculus also comes with an extra battery included, so you're ready to go, right out of the box.

The Oculus, at the same power levels, makes all those other light's you're talking about look light a matchstick compared to the automotive high performance beam shape and even brightness that the Oculus has.

5 to 10 hours burn time on a low or medium setting, giving a beam the outdoes anything the feeble single LED Cygo or anyone else's single standard commuter type light can put out.
The beam is so electrically and optically efficient and glare-free that NASA selected my optics to design the Lunar Resource Prospector Rover with, to find water on the Dark Side of the Moon.
On the Brightest of 5 programmed in intensities, you're putting better, brighter, more glare-free light on the road than the car's driving by, still lasting over an hour guaranteed (actual benchmark test 1:04 to 1:10 typical, 1:02 to 1:13 min/max)

Field replaceable battery design let's you change batteries quickly on the roadside. It comes programmed to even turn the light on when the battery makes contact, so that you don't need to fumble for the power switch after putting the fresh battery in.
The Oculus uses 26650 4.5 amp hour (guaranteed minimum capacity, not some Chinesium fiction) or any 18650 size you want if you're into being super-light weight for a self contained battery superbeam kind of light.

A high power charging circuit is built right into the light, so you can recharge a fully drained battery in only 5 hours. That's 1/3 the time it takes to recharge a Light and Motion Taz, or other competing lights. But those lights have sealed in batteries so when you're out of battery, you're out of luck, and out of light.
My lights are fully made in USA, min 80% domestic content, assembled right here in Mountain View, CA. I assemble most of them myself. Cygo may try to infer made in USA but its made by KingSword in Taiwan, same who make the nearly indentical Serfas lights.

Pls reply privately to arrange a demo of my Oculus lights if you're local in the SF Bay area.

[Sir Ridesalot]

If by Cygo you are referring to Cygolite then you are VERY wrong about the single LED. A number of Cygolites have two or even three LEDS. In addition Cygolite has a patented Crossfire system wherein the beams cross each other.

I'd like you to post POSITIVE proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the United States. Where's your proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the U.S.A.? Without POSITIVE proof of that, your statment is libel. Thus, where's your proof?

Cheers

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:48:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>I'd like you to post POSITIVE proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the United States. Where's your proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the U.S.A.? Without POSITIVE proof of that, your statment is libel. Thus, where's your proof?
>Cheers

The Cygolite package says "Engineered and Assembled in USA". What
that means is that the various components might have been made
offshore, but the final assembly is done in the states. It's a common
problem. This may help:
<http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/25/googles-moto-x-theres-a-difference-between-made-in-america-and-assembled-in-america/>
"For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed
to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits
on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all"
made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred
to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the
50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S.
territories and possessions.

What does "all or virtually all" mean?

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts
and processing that go into the product must be of U.S.
origin. That is, the product should contain no or
negligible foreign content."

If it were really made in USA, it would probably include a suitable
certification or self-certification, such as:
<https://www.madeintheusabrand.com>
Last year, Walmart got cited by the FTC for misusing the "Made in USA"
logo:
<http://www.reuters.com/article/us-walwal-mart-ftc-close-idUSKCN0SE2EB20151020>

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/14/2016 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.

That surprises me. While I don't have a SON hub, I have a Shimano with
about the same number of poles. At even five mile per hour (I just
checked) the flicker is visible, but not the least bit irritating. It's
not strobe-like, probably because the standlight capacitor in my B&M
headlamp supplies current when the dynamo's at its non-current
positions. At anything above 10 mph, there's no visible flicker that I
notice.

Another bike of mine has an ancient Sturmey-Archer dynohub, with a
homebrew LED setup. That one flickers badly at low speeds, since A)
it's wired so the headlamp gets only one phase of the dynamo output, and
the taillight gets the other phase; and B) it has no capacitor or
anything else, just the LEDs. But even that flicker is no real problem
until I'm down under 5 mph.

P.S. I know you're very, very sensitive to people disagreeing with you.
I'm not trying to change your mind. But others should understand that
your experience regarding flicker is not universal. In fact, its rare
at best.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 22:26:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/14/2016 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd
>> far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe
>> setting than on a steady on setting.

>That surprises me. While I don't have a SON hub, I have a Shimano with
>about the same number of poles. At even five mile per hour (I just

>checked) the flicker is visible,...

According to:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold>
the flicker fusion threshold varies with the type of lighting. For
movies and film, it's about 16Hz. For a CRT, it's about 75Hz. For
lighting there's no stated limit. The article notes that "The 100-120
Hz flicker produced by magnetic ballasts is associated with headaches
and eyestrain". It's possible that we don't actually see the LED
flicker above the flicker fusion threshold, but are still affected by
a higher frequency flicker.

[Barry Beams]

Some of you guys are way too intense.
You need to ask questions, not make false accusations which are themselves, libelous.
I learned about the Cygo to KingSword relationship at an Interbike meeting with KingSword people. They also like my "hood scoop" leading upper edge design, and their next series of lights had that shape instead of the previous much rounder frontal profile.

Btw since I'm directly educated by lawyers with first hand knowledge on Made in USA labelling requirements, instead of some of you thinking that something must be true because you read it on the internet,
a Ford Mustang, for example, can say Made in USA, with the later specification on the window sticker, "at least 78% domestic content". There are several ways of calculating domestic content. My Oculus says Made in USA "at least 75% domestic content." Its actually >80% now.

Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.

[Lou Holtman]

You must be riding very slow if flickering is a problem with a SON hub dynamo.

Lou

[Andre Jute]

I have both SON and Shimano dynohubs and the SON definitely flickers more when starting off and at slow speed. I was roundly abused over the years for saying so but it was true then and is true now. Check the threads on BUMM lamps.

Andre Jute
When I'm right I'm right

[Duane]

I remember seeing a train of guys doing some loaded touring around Trois
Rivieres Quebec and in the hills they looked like they had strobes. Not
sure which type of dynamos they had but just noticed them as we passed.
Maybe that's what SRA is saying.

[AMuzi]

I called Cygo recently to confirm that although Cygo does
not make every subcomponent in-house, they are indeed all USA.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Why would I buy a hub that when demonstrated flickered a lot at low speed? If I'm going up a steep incline and I'm riding at a slow speed I still, believe it or not, want to see where the heck I'm going and what's on the road ahead of me.

Ditto the above for riding slowly on trails at night.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

You got it Duane. The point is that not everyone wants to ride at high speeds all the time just to keep their light from flickering. There are many times when it's not possible to ride at high speeds. was surprised at how fast you had to turn that SON hub before the flicker evened out let alone disappeared. It reminded me of those ancient bottle dynamos running against the tire sidewalls but the SON is a heck of a lot more money.



I'd rather have a good battery light that will give me bright light when and where I want/need it.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

I emailed them and am waiting to hear back.

Cheers

[Lou Holtman]

Flicker is gone at speed of 7 km/hr and above. Just a data point. You don't have to buy anything. Don't feel attacked every time someone trying to explains/mentions something. That is a strange habit of you.

Lou

[AMuzi]

That's right. Even my SA GH-6 DynoHub, which flickers and,
in the best British tradition, "spans a range from dim to
dark"[1], is perfectly adequate and suitable for me. I am
not Sir, who may well have different needs or opinions.

[1] Rumored Lucas advertising phrase

[Sir Ridesalot]

So, if someone makes a comment based on someone else's pst then the person making the comment has to feel as if they've been attacked?

Strange that.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

My SP hub and Luxos B produce a steady beam at about 4mph, which is roughly the same as the Schmidt hub. Whether the beam is sufficient is another matter, and in great part, subjective.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2016-02-14 20:24, Barry Beams wrote:

[...]

> Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other
> brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for
> the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or
> less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less
> for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.
>

I will never understand why cyclists put up with dynamos, with replacing
batteries and with lights that go out mid-ride. Car drivers would want a
full refund if their cars did that.

On my MTB I have a battery of about 60Wh, similar to the capacity on a
higher end laptop. This allows me to run a 1000 lumen light at full bore
for 5-6h. Still have to build a good rear light for that because as
usual nothing is available commercially that could be directly hooked
into a 8.4V system and isn't mechanically flimsy.

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy3.JPG

Has survived mud, rain, rock hits and whatnot. The front light has an
added dispersion lens so it lights the trail or road similar to a
motorcycle light and doesn't blind oncoming drivers. The rear light
still needs a wire cage protector against flying debris.

Even back in the 80's I had a proper light system similar to what motor
vehicles had. Except there I could charge with a dynamo while riding
because all we had was small lead-acid batteries and NiCd along with
power-hungry incandescent bulbs.

Battery replacement during a ride? Not with this here rider.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Frank Krygowski]

Nope, you've got it backwards. When people comment on _your_ posts,
_you_ frequently act as if you'd been attacked. Lou and I were both
trying to prevent that.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

Er, I wasn't replying to Lou but to Sir. It's a bit hit and miss when you use your iPhone or iPad rather than the desktop Mac.

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 2:33:43 PM UTC, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> The point is that not everyone wants to ride at high speeds all the time just to keep their light from flickering. There are many times when it's not possible to ride at high speeds.

I've been saying for years that, while the SON may be the aspirational dynamo for roadies doing winter training and using the bike for nothing else, and for tourers who can't afford a breakdown in Outer Camelstan, for commuters and utility cyclists the Shimano hub dynamo is a superior choice: a third the price, lights up at lower speed, gives smooth enough light at lower speed, better too as a daylight running lamp driver, and at high speed works the same. So what if the Shimano doesn't last as long as the SON? How many cyclists want their components to last longer than the 50k klicks the Shimano is good for?

Andre Jute

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/15/2016 9:33 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> The point is that not everyone wants to ride at high speeds all the time just to
keep their light from flickering. There are many times when it's not
possible to ride
at high speeds. was surprised at how fast you had to turn that SON hub
before the
flicker evened out let alone disappeared.

Again, this puzzles me. What light source was wired to the SON hub you
tried? Did you actually ride this bike outside in the dark, or were you
somehow spinning the hub while stationary? You seem to be observing
something that's not commonly seen - at least, above 4 or 5 mph.

> > It reminded me of those ancient bottle dynamos running against the
tire sidewalls
but the SON is a heck of a lot more money.

Another mystery! I still use bottle dynamos on a couple bikes. I've
never seen such flickering. (BTW, bottle dynamos run at a much higher
AC frequency than hub dynamos, which makes the flicker you describe even
less likely.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/15/2016 8:58 AM, Duane wrote:
>
> I remember seeing a train of guys doing some loaded touring around Trois
> Rivieres Quebec and in the hills they looked like they had strobes. Not
> sure which type of dynamos they had but just noticed them as we passed.
> Maybe that's what SRA is saying.

And are you sure they didn't actually have strobes? If you just noticed
them as you passed, seems it would be difficult to tell that they had
SON (or Shimano, or Shutter Precision...) hubs powering their headlights.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 3:22:02 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>
> That's right. Even my SA GH-6 DynoHub, which flickers and,
> in the best British tradition, "spans a range from dim to
> dark"[1], is perfectly adequate and suitable for me. I am
> not Sir, who may well have different needs or opinions.
>
> [1] Rumored Lucas advertising phrase
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Aren't you one of those masochists who kept an MG for longer than a week?* Sounds to me like Lucas, Prince of Darkness**, had a hand in the design of your bike dynamo as well.

Andre Jute
*So as not to be caught out as a hypocrite, I kept a TC that I bought from an architect in Pretoria in excellent near-new condition for several months because it was so beautifully proportioned. But it was a gutless little thing, dying of respiratory disease at 65 or maybe 70mph. My Lancia Fulvia, a girlie-car if there ever was once, was much, much faster. I sold the TC to a German engineer who should have known better but who was besotted with it for seven times what I paid the architect.
**A phrase I first heard from Artur Pizarro, the Portuguese pianist, who also had an MG.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 9:48:45 AM UTC-6, Joerg wrote:
>
> I will never understand why cyclists put up with dynamos, with replacing
> batteries and with lights that go out mid-ride.
>

> On my MTB I have a battery of about 60Wh, similar to the capacity on a
> higher end laptop. This allows me to run a 1000 lumen light at full bore
> for 5-6h.

> The front light has an
> added dispersion lens so it lights the trail or road similar to a
> motorcycle light and doesn't blind oncoming drivers.

You seem to be confusing the positives of both types of lighting systems. Generator and battery. With a generator system the lights never go out during the ride and there are no batteries to charge or replace. As for putting up with dynamos, they do have the disadvantage of being confined to one bike only, not transferable.

If your home made light has any truth to it, you really should contact a company and figure out how to produce it for sale. You would do the night time biking population a great service and earn yourself a lot of money. However, if there is no truth and only exaggeration and lies, then...

[AMuzi]

I too have a bike with a classic side-drive dynamo. Flicker
has never been noticeable on that unit. It lights better at
low speeds than my hub dynamo equipped bike.

[Lou Holtman]

Spinning a wheel in a store is not the best test to judge whether the
flicker will be a problem.


--
Lou

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 9:00:45 AM UTC-6, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > February 15, 2016 at 3:29:36 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much
>

> Flicker is gone at speed of 7 km/hr and above.

My G-d!!!!! Why are you riding so fast? Zip, zip, zipping around so fast you miss seeing everything. Almost 4.5 miles per hour! That's almost as fast as you can walk! Why aren't you walking instead of riding? You could hold a lighter in front of you and see. Much better than a dynamo light.

[AMuzi]

Yes, I was a happy MGB owner for several years. Despite its
spectacular demise, I can appreciate the excellent handling
(although not the lack of reliability nor running expenses)
even now. On winding narrow country lanes between 50 and
70mph, they are wonderful. On expressways or straight rural
highways they are underpowered. YMMV and mine surely did.

For a young man with time and inclination to learn gearbox
and engine building, general mechanical detective work,
regular tinkering and such, it was a fine vehicle. I doubt
there are any comparable $300 learning opportunities for
today's youth, not that they care about cars much as it is.

[Joerg]

On 2016-02-15 10:22, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 9:48:45 AM UTC-6, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> I will never understand why cyclists put up with dynamos, with
>> replacing batteries and with lights that go out mid-ride.
>>
>> On my MTB I have a battery of about 60Wh, similar to the capacity
>> on a higher end laptop. This allows me to run a 1000 lumen light at
>> full bore for 5-6h.
>
>> The front light has an added dispersion lens so it lights the trail
>> or road similar to a motorcycle light and doesn't blind oncoming
>> drivers.
>
>
> You seem to be confusing the positives of both types of lighting
> systems. Generator and battery. With a generator system the lights
> never go out during the ride and there are no batteries to charge or
> replace.

Sure they go out. Stop somewhere and it either goes to a dim "stand
light" or out. My car headlights don't do that. Stop signs,
intersections and traffic lights are part of most rides.


> ... As for putting up with dynamos, they do have the

> disadvantage of being confined to one bike only, not transferable.
>
> If your home made light has any truth to it, you really should
> contact a company and figure out how to produce it for sale. You
> would do the night time biking population a great service and earn
> yourself a lot of money. However, if there is no truth and only
> exaggeration and lies, then...
>

Have you not seen the photo that you snipped?

Nobody would produce it for sale because the bike accessory industry
does not see the potential of such stuff. They often have little vision.

This is the battery container:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Battbox1.JPG
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Battbox2.JPG

The battery is mounted in thick rubber so it won't be crushed and
survives fast rides over rough turf. The charge port comes down from
underneath the seat. Also useful if I need power for something else. You
are welcome to stick the head in the sand and pretend it's not there :-)

[AMuzi]

On 2/15/2016 12:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-02-15 10:22, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 9:48:45 AM UTC-6, Joerg
>> wrote:

-snippy snip snip-

> Sure they go out. Stop somewhere and it either goes to a dim
> "stand light" or out. My car headlights don't do that. "

Seems like a not-Lucas system. Is your three-way switch
marked "DIM-FLICKER-OFF" ?

[Joerg]

On 2016-02-15 11:07, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/15/2016 12:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-02-15 10:22, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 9:48:45 AM UTC-6, Joerg
>>> wrote:
> -snippy snip snip-
>> Sure they go out. Stop somewhere and it either goes to a dim
>> "stand light" or out. My car headlights don't do that. "
>
> Seems like a not-Lucas system. Is your three-way switch marked
> "DIM-FLICKER-OFF" ?
>

No, my car is from Mitsubishi and doesn't have Lucas electric stuff :-)

My bikes have homemade electric stuff.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, Barry Beams wrote:

> On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.
> >
> > It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.
> >
> > Cheers
>

> Some of you guys are way too intense.
> You need to ask questions, not make false accusations which are themselves, libelous.
> I learned about the Cygo to KingSword relationship at an Interbike meeting with KingSword people. They also like my "hood scoop" leading upper edge design, and their next series of lights had that shape instead of the previous much rounder frontal profile.
>
> Btw since I'm directly educated by lawyers with first hand knowledge on Made in USA labelling requirements, instead of some of you thinking that something must be true because you read it on the internet,
> a Ford Mustang, for example, can say Made in USA, with the later specification on the window sticker, "at least 78% domestic content". There are several ways of calculating domestic content. My Oculus says Made in USA "at least 75% domestic content." Its actually >80% now.

>
> Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.

A screen capture of your post was sent to Cygolite. Here is part of their reply that they allowed me to post here to clarify things regarding m,anufacture of Cygolite products:

"Thank you for the information about the post regarding our lights. We'd
like to confirm our products are designed and assembled here in the USA
and we have no affiliation with the mentioned company, as falsely stated."

Looks like you are very wrong about where Cygolite products are made.

Cheers

[sms]

On 2/14/2016 2:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:

> On 2/14/2016 3:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II
>> (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of
>> manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights.
>> In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over
>> 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can
>> you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal
>> battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower
>> speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was
>> on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.
>>
>> It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>

> Their EXP series have removable LiIon cells and a USB charge port. Nice
> design, USA made.

The bicycle light manufacturers are following the phone manufacturers.

LG is the only big name phone maker still using replaceable batteries.
My son has an LG G4, I have a G3. My next door neighbor, definitely not
a techie, showed me is LG G4 last Friday. He said that he chose it
because it was the only phone that had a user replaceable battery.

[sms]

On 2/14/2016 4:17 PM, Gary Young wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 6:37:28 PM UTC-5, Gary Young wrote:
> <snip>

>>
>> The Fenix BC30 and BC21 use non-proprietary 18650 li-ion cells. I bought the BC30 so that I could use the stash of cells I had accumulated for various headlamps, and I'm very pleased with it. You'll need to buy a separate li-ion charger, but they can be had for $20 or so.
>

> Correction: the Fenix BC21R has a built-in usb charger (or you can use an external charger).

Can the BC21R be charged while the light is on?

A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
dynamo.

You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.

[sms]

On 2/15/2016 7:49 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-02-14 20:24, Barry Beams wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other
>> brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for
>> the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or
>> less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less
>> for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.
>>
>
> I will never understand why cyclists put up with dynamos, with replacing
> batteries and with lights that go out mid-ride. Car drivers would want a
> full refund if their cars did that.

I think that you know the reason. It's to be self-sufficient and not
have to change or charge batteries.

What would make sense is the approach many vehicles take. If I'm in our
Plug-In Prius and the gasoline engine is not running, the headlights
don't turn off. I can drive 12-16 miles on electric only. Once that
battery is exhausted, the other battery and the gasoline engine power
the the car and charge the non-Plug-In battery.

There are a couple of USB rechargeable lights where you could at least
power them at one of the lower settings with a dynamo, and of course you
could charge the internal battery from the dynamo when the light is off
or when it is on strobe and not using much power. It's not unlike just
putting a big standlight battery into a dynamo light instead of a super-cap.

You can buy a board that includes rectification and a buck switching
regulator for less than $10. It would work as is, though I'd probably
swap the silicon bridge rectifier for four 1N5822 Schottky diodes, and
put in lower voltage capacitors which are shorter. You also could get by
with a much smaller heat sink, since you're not going to be drawing 3
amps. I.e.
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-DC-LM2596T-power-supply-module-3A-Buck-board-adjustable-voltage-plate-/171016067885>.

Unfortunately, commercially, there's little appeal for a hybrid light,
at least in the U.S., where so few bicycles have dynamos of any kind,
and you can buy a decent 18650 powered rechargeable light for $30
(though they come with pretty wimpy capacity batteries).

[sms]

The bottle dynamo has a lot more poles so the AC frequency is much higher.

When you're going really slow with a hub dynamo there is a lot of
flicker, but it's almost immaterial since the power output is so low
that you could not get sufficient light even if you removed the flicker.
For low speed riding, such as climbing steep grades, a dynamo light is
not something anyone would use anyway.

[Joe Riel]

Bottle dynamos have fewer poles than a hub dynamo.
To more than make up for it, they spin significantly faster.

--
Joe Riel

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2016 11:02 AM, sms wrote:
> On 2/15/2016 10:26 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> O

>> I too have a bike with a classic side-drive dynamo. Flicker has never
>> been noticeable on that unit. It lights better at low speeds than my hub
>> dynamo equipped bike.
>
> The bottle dynamo has a lot more poles so the AC frequency is much higher.

Typical bottle dynamos have eight poles. Modern hub dynamos typically
have 26 or 28.

The higher frequency of a bottle unit is due to the units higher
rotational speed. It spins roughly 25 times as fast as the hub.

> When you're going really slow with a hub dynamo there is a lot of
> flicker, but it's almost immaterial since the power output is so low
> that you could not get sufficient light even if you removed the flicker.
> For low speed riding, such as climbing steep grades, a dynamo light is
> not something anyone would use anyway.

Except that people all over the world use them perfectly well. Your
statement is nonsense.

There was a time, something like 40 years ago, when I recall getting
insufficient light from a dynamo. It was a Sanyo roller unit that
didn't ramp up to full voltage as soon as the dynamos I used later; and
the headlamp I had fitted used an ordinary vacuum bulb, not even a
halogen one. I was making my way very slowly over the gravel road
inside a campground, and thought "This isn't bright enough."

Since changing to halogen bulbs, to better roller or bottle dynamos (or
now hub dynamos), and especially since changing to modern LEDs, I've
never had that problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Barry Beams]

> Looks like you ar peoplee very wrong about where Cygolite products are made.
>
> Cheers

Designed and assembled does not mean "made". The parts are all made in Taiwan or China, then sent as a kit to be assembled anywhere the buyer wants. "Designed" doesn't mean made. Commonly, as I learned when Merry Sales working with Tange and KingSword tried to steal my design until I rejected their cheapened up parts and they quit instead of making the design I gave them
,American composed design drawings sent to China end up altered by the Chinese into a standard style and manufacturing format.
That's why people outside of first hand experience, like you, have a hard time being willing to accept how misleading the "designed in USA" claim can be.
Also, that product quality is much more a function of where the parts are made and the direct supervision that the designer keeps over the final tool design and product and component sourcing, than where the components are actually assembled.
The better question to as Cygo, Serfas, or any maker, is where or what % of the actual hard objects are made. Then Cygo would have to say Made in China, at least 90% chinese content. My lights are 80%+ made in USA and its taken a ton of work and cost consciousness to make it that way. I assemble my lights here in Mountain View, CA, instead of some US protectorate in the pacific as a way to circumvent the "Made in ???" labelling requirement.

The tone you bring into this diatribe is why I rarely post to this list.

Buy one of my lights, or take a quick demo ride, and that will make the rest of your comments moot.

[sms]

Yes, my mistake. What you said.

[sms]

On 2/14/2016 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:48:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> I'd like you to post POSITIVE proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the United States. Where's your proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the U.S.A.? Without POSITIVE proof of that, your statment is libel. Thus, where's your proof?
>> Cheers
>
> The Cygolite package says "Engineered and Assembled in USA". What
> that means is that the various components might have been made
> offshore, but the final assembly is done in the states. It's a common
> problem. This may help:
> <http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/25/googles-moto-x-theres-a-difference-between-made-in-america-and-assembled-in-america/>

<snip>

It's very difficult for anything involving Li-Ion batteries, high-power
LEDs and various other electronic components to be "Made in the U.S.A."
You can screw around with the value you assign to various components of
the product in order to jack up the "domestic content" percentage, but
that's about it, so "Designed and Assembled in the U.S.A. is about the
best that you're going to get. Apple is doing that with the Mac Pro now.

The screwed up part of selling bicycle accessories is that the shops
demand Keystone margins (100% mark-up) and you can't sell direct to
consumers at less than your MSRP. Once you decide to sell through shops,
your retail has to be high enough so you don't lose money on every unit
you sell wholesale.

While Barry can be a little too intense, the light he manufactures and
sells is quite good, and he doesn't gouge on spare batteries. The light
would sell pretty well at around $125, but that would mean going 100%
direct and forgetting about selling through shops.

[Barry Beams]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.
>
> It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.
>
> Cheers

@Steve
Your assessment of the distributor to store to retail vs.online selling model sounds like you've been through this first hand. For instance, to add the extra battery included, if the battery costs me $5, then selling direct and keeping my same margins means I only need to add $5 to the cost.

But selling at retail and stores, I need to increase the MSRP by $20.

If I gave up selling through distributors and stores then
If at $135, I would dominate the market if I could put on a sufficient social + web marketing campaign to get the word out there.
~$165 is about the sweet spot where I'm clearly still the best money can buy, and that people will still spend before hitting that $200 over/under price point.
My bike expo and maker faire deals sell well in person at ~$160-ish. For instance I sold 40 lights at Maker Faire last year in two days, at $155 each.

I'm seriously examining taking my sales to a discounted direct sales model only, but the sales volumes would have to be high enough to make up for losing small margin higher quantity sales that would go through distributors.

Long term within 2-4 years, I want to have other companies license my optics for use in their own lights. The outdoors, tactical, and aerospace markets are far larger than bicycle industry, and is where I'm targeting my effort and getting some wins, like with NASA and local police SWAT teams. But these are longer processes than just selling the current product direct to consumer.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Steve aka SMS is a well known guerilla marketer of Chinese flashlights kludged as bicycle lights. He gets a kickback on the ones he sells.

Cheers

[sms]

How much is FBA (fulfillment by Amazon)? That might be a good middle
ground and give you very wide exposure.

I think selling through shops is a losing proposition for higher-end,
lower volume products. Especially when so many shops are obligated to
sell accessories from Trek or Specialized if the are tied to one bicycle
brand. It doesn't matter if the the product the bicycle manufacture
offers is sub-par, they have to push it. And of course you have stores
like Performance pushing their own brands of Made in China accessories.

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 16.02.2016 um 16:31 schrieb sms:

> A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
> It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
> you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
> dynamo.
>
> You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.

Certainly not. You know that a dynamo is a 'fixed-power' source not a
'fixed-voltage' source and that therefore it is pretty non-trivial to
keep to the USB spec of 'exactly 5V, at most 500mA'.

You can buy a USB dynamo adapter for $100, and you can build one maybe
for $30 with the circuits downloadable from the internet, and I do not
see much benefit of such a system compared to using standard good
dynamo-driven LED lights: only meaningful use might be an additional
'high beam' that you charge during the day and might switch on at night
for fast downhill sections.

[sms]

On 2/17/2016 1:21 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 16.02.2016 um 16:31 schrieb sms:
>
>> A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
>> It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
>> you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
>> dynamo.
>>
>> You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.
>
> Certainly not. You know that a dynamo is a 'fixed-power' source not a
> 'fixed-voltage' source and that therefore it is pretty non-trivial to
> keep to the USB spec of 'exactly 5V, at most 500mA'.

The misconception that a USB port can supply a a maximum of 500mA, or
must supply a maximum of 500mA, is very common. The reality is that a
USB port must supply a _minimum_ of 500mA (though in some cases 100mA is
all that is required).

Even on computers, USB ports don't trip the over-current protection at
exactly 500mA, or even at 501mA. They generally don't trip until about
1A. I.e. from the TI LM3525 Single Port USB Power Switch and
Over-Current Protection: "The current limit threshold is set internally
to allow a minimum of 500 mA through the MOSFET but limit the maximum
current to 1.0A typical." Some controllers have programmable current
limits, i.e. the TI TPS2511 is programmable from 250mA to 2.7A.

But all this is moot when the USB connectors are just being used as a
convenient physical and electrical connection, and the port is never
enumerated at all. The trend of rechargeable devices using a USB jack as
a power connector is for convenience, and is something for which USB was
not originally designed for, though the USB Power Delivery Spec, now
allows USB to provide up to 20A. Qualcomm's Quick-Charge 2.0 spec allows
voltages of up to 20V on the USB port in order to minimize current while
still allowing higher power, and enables very fast charging of mobile
phones.

A buck converter with a wide input voltage range cares only that the
minimum and maximum voltage levels are not exceeded, and that there is
enough current. Once the dynamo voltage reaches the minimum inout level
for the regulator, you get output. The higher the voltage out of the
dynamo, the higher the current out of the regulator.

Some (most?) homebrew dynamo to USB designs just use a bridge rectifier,
a 5V LDO linear regulator, and some capacitors. These do work.
<http://www.instructables.com/id/Voltage-Regulated-5-V-Bicycle-Dynamo-Light-USB/>.
They are inefficient at higher speeds where the voltage output of the
dynamo can be a lot higher than 6VAC, and you're limited the dynamo's
current output.

Better to substitute an OKI-78SR-5 for the 7805. It has an input range
of 7-36VDC at a maximum of 690mA and an output of 5V up to 1.5A. These
are less than $5. Also better to use a Schottky bridge like the MCC
MB12S, or four Schottky diodes to minimize the losses through the rectifier.

You can build a dynamo to USB converter with only four or five
components, a MCC MB12S, a OKI-78SR-5, and two or three capacitors.

http://power.murata.com/data/power/oki-78sr.pdf
http://www.mccsemi.com/up_pdf/MB12S-MB110S(MBS-1).pdf

The reason for a "hybrid" battery/dynamo system is to combine the
advantages of a dynamo light with the advantages of a battery powered
light. The ability to have high-output even at lower speeds, the benefit
of a daytime front flasher, and the advantage of at least having lower
lumen output when the battery is exhausted.

You don't see many bicycles with dynamo lights in the U.S., but when you
do, the rider almost always has a second light as well (either being
carried somewhere, or mounted on the handlebars). It's necessary for
three reasons:
1) you need a battery powered light for repairs
2) you need a higher power light for places where the output of a dynamo
light is not sufficient
3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
_expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 8:50:07 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
Snipped

> 3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
> the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
> foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
> _expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

What a crock of El Toro Poo Poo! You DON'T need a flashing front light on a bicycle in normal bright daylight conditions.

Cheers

[Duane]

On 17/02/2016 8:49 AM, sms wrote:
<snip>

> You don't see many bicycles with dynamo lights in the U.S., but when you
> do, the rider almost always has a second light as well (either being
> carried somewhere, or mounted on the handlebars). It's necessary for
> three reasons:
> 1) you need a battery powered light for repairs
> 2) you need a higher power light for places where the output of a dynamo
> light is not sufficient
> 3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
> the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
> foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
> _expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

Maybe it's a west coast thing but I certainly don't see it in Vermont,
NY or New Hampshire when I'm riding there. Not in the south either but
I'll see in the spring when I go home to visit but last time I was in
NOLA there were none that I could see.

Pretty unusual to see DRLs in Montreal also. Law here requires solid on
white front light for riding at night but nothing about DRLs.

[Andre Jute]

I don't think so. "No affiliation" means "we're not part of the same legal entity". It doesn't mean "they don't make parts for us for payment on invoice". Before you can reach a wishful conclusion like the one you did, never mind be offensive to Barry about it and accuse him of libel (which is anyway none of your business -- let Cygo look after their own reputation), you need to ask a supplementary question, which is:

"Can you confirm without qualification that none of your components are manufactured by Kingsword."

If you really want to nail this down, ask them, "Please tell me which part of your product is US made by a) value and b) mass (weight)." This avoids avoids them committing common abuses like valuing the sticker at 99% of the wholesale price.

These incidentally are the questions you should have asked in the first instance.

What Cygo told you looks suspiciously like a well-prepared, much-polished weasel in response to a planted/softball question from a fanboy who really, really wants to believe. The only alternative is a depressing lack of sophistication on the part of the questioner. Take your pick about the causes: the end result is the same: we are no wiser about where Cygo lamps are made, except that we're spiralling in on China, with perhaps stickers being stuck on Chinese-made "subassemblies" once they're unpacked Stateside from the container that brought them from Canada.
***
I sympathize with Barry in his travails with Chinese manufacturers. When I licensed high voltage thermionic tube high fidelity amplifier designs to a Japanese manufacturer who had them built in China, the Chinese were amazed and very angry when we would reject whole batches of boards, electronic subassemblies and casework for what they considered mickey mouse reasons but which to us, selling a premium product, were clearly sales-killers, not to mention the maintenance costs if we warrantied sub-standard work, and the possibility that it would kill someone. Your average Chinese subassembly manufacturer and assembler has absolutely no idea of the punctilio required for premium products. When Bafang, which makes motors for bicycles, wanted to sell to European OEMs, they set up a facility in Switzerland and created an entirely separate line, which was based on their standard line, but with the models prefixed by a Q for Quality because they were better built and finished and more often and more rigorously inspected than the standard models. Bafang was open about the reasons: they said it was done because Europeans have a higher expection of quality and finish than the Chinese or Americans will accept.
***
I anyway fail to see why all this kerfuffle about "US-made products" is relevant. US manufacturing was put in the toilet long since by corrupt unions, mindless Democratic politicians, and complaisant, limp Republican pols who didn't know what they stood for. That Americans still have huge engineering and productionizing skills is proven by the fine car from Ford's erstwhile Premium division like the Range Rover and the Volvo and Jaguar and the excellent European Mondeo (I was in one today and asked how much it cost -- superb value for money). It is significant that all of these were designed and built in Mrs Thatcher's Britain, while in the States the workers have to put up with genuinely crappy cars (the last time I spent the shareholders' money on an American car it was on a seven liter and change Ford LTD, which with the police brakes from a cheaper model and after I breathed on the suspension was a superb car for crossing Europe in a day -- Stirling Moss also had one). Those workers did it to themselves via their corrupt unions and unreasonable inflationary wage and benefit demands. The time to care is several decades past. You're crying long tears about a boat that sailed to China long, long since. Americans did it to themselves and now, having ruined the means and the milieu for large-scale home manufacturing, are suddenly demanding, as you're doing, that traders/assemblers prove they are "loyal" (unAmerican Manufacturing Committee anyone? Come back Joe McCarthy, all is forgiven?), as you're doing to Cygo and Barry, leading to the sort of weaseling and lying and fraudulent labelling that Scharfie and Jeff explained upthread. You're not part of the solution, Rideablot; you're part of the problem, and very likely have always been.

Andre Jute
It's true, just not politically correct to say so. I should care? -- Alfred E. Neuman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 20:14:33 +0000, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> considered Sun, 14 Feb 2016
>20:16:03 -0800 the perfect time to write:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 22:26:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>>
>>>On 2/14/2016 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd
>>>> far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe
>>>> setting than on a steady on setting.
>>

>>>That surprises me. While I don't have a SON hub, I have a Shimano with
>>>about the same number of poles. At even five mile per hour (I just
>>>checked) the flicker is visible,...
>>
>>According to:
>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold>
>>the flicker fusion threshold varies with the type of lighting. For
>>movies and film, it's about 16Hz. For a CRT, it's about 75Hz. For
>>lighting there's no stated limit. The article notes that "The 100-120
>>Hz flicker produced by magnetic ballasts is associated with headaches
>>and eyestrain". It's possible that we don't actually see the LED
>>flicker above the flicker fusion threshold, but are still affected by
>>a higher frequency flicker.

>The trouble with any of those numbers is that there is a very large
>variation between individuals.
>I know people who can use a CRT computer monitor all day at 60Hz
>without any problem, and a few of those would probably not be bothered
>down to under 50Hz, but others who need over 100Hz to avoid headaches
>- in one extreme case over 120Hz.
>And yes, different phosphor coatings have different levels of
>persistence as well, which complicates matters (high persistence
>allows a lower frequency, but "smears" on fast movement, whereas low
>persistence gives very sharp movement, but needs a higher refresh rate
>to be perceived as "flicker-free").
>But this was in a corporate setting , where all the monitors were the
>same make and model, so I think it's safe to say that the phosphor was
>the same on all of them.
>I'm sure that similar variations apply to lighting.

Yep. Many years ago, I did some human factors work for a manufacturer
of CRT terminals. Flicker was part of the problem. As you note,
sensitivity varies with the individual. During testing, I found that
contrast has a big effect on flicker perception. If the room was
dark, and the CRT was bright, flicker was perceivable below 100Hz.
Turn on the room lights, and the same individuals could only see
flicker below about 50Hz. I suspect this might have an effect on
flicker perception when riding at night.

At the time, I also dug out some old radio physics articles on flicker
in two areas. One was the Nipkow rotating disk type television
system, where flicker was controlled by the disk RPM. The other was
when various CRT based schemes for TV broadcast were being developed
and frame rate had a big effect on transmission bandwidth. Both tests
involved placing a volunteer in front of a simulated display, varying
the frame rate, and asking perceptual type questions. There were no
longer term tests for headaches. The movie tests resulted in 25Hz
while the TV tests went for 30Hz based on halving the perceived
threshold. I can possibly dig out the articles if anyone is
interested.

My guess(tm) is that most complaints about flicker are from either LED
house or street lighting, that runs at 50/60Hz:
<http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/jul/characterizing-and-minimizing-led-flicker-in-lighting-applications>
or at the beat frequency between such 50/60Hz lighting, and whatever
the dynamo is running. The resulting stroboscopic effect will
certainly be visible and irritating. It can happen even with battery
operated LED dimming, which I've found on my Bike Planet headlight to
operate at about 1KHz. Although the frequency difference is high,
it's still possible to produce a visible beat frequency. Apparently,
1KHz isn't good enough for some cyclists:
<http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/do-any-lights-not-use-pwm-900381.html>

Perception is everything.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

Much interesting material there, but I simply called Cygo,
asked for the GM and got a prompt polite response that the
product components are USA sourced. I have no reason to
doubt him but there's no airtight evidence of that either.

[Andre Jute]

Aw, sheet, Muzi, by bringing simple common sense (appreciated only by simpletons!) to the table, you're ruined a good flamewar that Ridealot started.

Seriously, if the GM of Cygo tells a respected dealer, who's following a public discussion and is likely to repeat the statement publicly, that the components are US made, as far as I'm concerned that's the end of the story. I take the view that people are entitled to a presumption of truthfulness.

It is wickedly ironic that Ridealot, who accuses business people of being crooks on no evidence whatsoever except his permanent conspiracy mindset, is now on the other side..

Andre Jute
All hail Andrew Muzi for performing a public service. Remember what happened to Telemachus!

[sms]

They'd have a hard time sourcing U.S.A. made Li-Ion cells. There used to
be one U.S. manufacturer of them but I'm pretty sure they are gone now.
I suppose that Tesla could dedicate some of their new battery factory to
making 18650 and 26650 cells, but that's unlikely.

Cree LEDs are made in the U.S. though they are also doing packaging in
China.

Building the PCBs in the U.S. would not be difficult, nor would
machining and molding be difficult. Even if it cost 3x the amount for
those pieces, the value of those items is so low that it would not
increase the manufacturing cost by more than a few dollars.

For some high-value items, like cars, there's some nationalism when it
comes to purchases. I think most people would rather buy a Toyota built
in the U.S. than a Ford built in Mexico, regardless of the domestic
content (which does not include labor). And the domestic content laws
are so incredibly screwed up that about the best you can do is to look
at the final assembly plant.

Nationalism went out the window for bicycles and bicycle stuff a long
time ago.

The progression of bicycle sourcing was:

Italy=Good, Japan=Bad > Japan=Good, Taiwan=Bad > Taiwan=Good, China=Bad

Now no one thinks twice about buying a bicycle imported from China, and
Japanese and Taiwanese bicycles have become boutique items, sold at high
prices.

The move to China for contract manufacturing means that there's plenty
of manufacturing capacity that enables companies like Bikes Direct to
resurrect old brand names and cut out both the U.S. "manufacturer" and
the local bike shop, and it allows companies like QBP to get into the
complete bike business. A bicycle that retails for $1000 has about $600
worth of mark-up between the factory and the consumer. Bikesdirect has
made a nice little business out of splitting the difference with the
consumer that is willing to do some minor assembly. LBSes complain about
consumer direct sales of non-department store bicycles, but a smart shop
owner could capitalize on Bikes Direct with a similar model that Tire
Rack uses for car tires.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 14:53:27 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/14/2016 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:48:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
>> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like you to post POSITIVE proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the United States. Where's your proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the U.S.A.? Without POSITIVE proof of that, your statment is libel. Thus, where's your proof?
>>> Cheers
>>
>> The Cygolite package says "Engineered and Assembled in USA". What
>> that means is that the various components might have been made
>> offshore, but the final assembly is done in the states. It's a common
>> problem. This may help:
>> <http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/25/googles-moto-x-theres-a-difference-between-made-in-america-and-assembled-in-america/>
>
><snip>
>
>It's very difficult for anything involving Li-Ion batteries, high-power
>LEDs and various other electronic components to be "Made in the U.S.A."
>You can screw around with the value you assign to various components of
>the product in order to jack up the "domestic content" percentage, but
>that's about it, so "Designed and Assembled in the U.S.A. is about the
>best that you're going to get. Apple is doing that with the Mac Pro now.

Yep. That's especially difficult when there are no domestic component
manufacturers for some of the key parts. LiIon is a good example:
<http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/wp05-01/chapt2.htm>
While the R&D and initial production runs are often done in the USA,
volume production soon moves offshore. However, I could probably
claim a high domestic content if the most expensive and custom parts
were all made in the USA. For example, in a bicycle light, the case,
mechanical parts, mounting hardware, trim, cosmetics, optics, and
possibly the PCB can all be domestically sourced, while the much
cheaper commodity parts can be sourced from offshore suppliers.

>The screwed up part of selling bicycle accessories is that the shops
>demand Keystone margins (100% mark-up) and you can't sell direct to
>consumers at less than your MSRP.

"Fair Trade" is still alive and well.

>Once you decide to sell through shops,
>your retail has to be high enough so you don't lose money on every unit
>you sell wholesale.

Welcome to product marketing. In this case, the product needs to find
a compatible buyer. The average impulse bicycle light buyer is NOT
going to buy a $400 light at an LBS which could exceed the cost of the
bicycle. The typical Amazon shopper is NOT going to buy a $400 light
unless he has previously seen, used, and evaluated the product. Each
price tier has it's corresponding typical customer.

It's also difficult to sell a single product for an odd reason. Most
product lines need a loss leader, that nobody buys, but which helps
sell the product. In automobiles, it's the overpriced bright red
convertible sports car on the showroom floor. Nobody ever buys one,
but it attracts the customers, who think of their youthful days of
wanting such a car, and end up buying something much cheaper and more
practical. Same in bicycle lighting. For example:
<http://www.trailled.com/lighting/>
Price range is from $350 to $1,185 for essentially the same product.
If one of the lower priced lights were advertised by itself, it would
never sell because few people can justify a $350 head light. However,
when compared to the sky high prices of the other lights, $350 looks
like a bargain. The $1,185 light is their red convertible and my
guess(tm) is they have yet to sell a single one.

>While Barry can be a little too intense, the light he manufactures and
>sells is quite good, and he doesn't gouge on spare batteries.

How can you tell it's good? Have you seen one in action? Have you
looked at his web page and found any test results, specifications,
details, reviews, or comparisons with other lights? I haven't and
suspect that he's not selling the light on technical merit. He's
selling a rather innovative lens system, his connection with NASA, and
sheer force of personality. That works very well for selling at
county fairs, kiosks, and shows. My guess(tm) is that if Barry
produced comparative specs and test data, the light would end up in
the middle of the pack with all the other innovative lighting products
with nothing to distinguish it from the others.

>The light
>would sell pretty well at around $125, but that would mean going 100%
>direct and forgetting about selling through shops.

Agreed, if all he wants to do is sell direct. I don't know the market
well enough to determine if direct sales or retail is the optimum
approach. Each has their advantages. My best suggestion would be for
him to look at the prices of the nearest competitors selling similar
lights, and see how well they're doing in direct sales, mail odor, or
retail, and then try to steal some of their business. Unless the
light does something new and innovative, it's not going to create a
new market.

[AMuzi]

You never owned a red convertible? Really? Man, you haven't
lived.

[sms]

There was a domestic 18650 manufacturer in Florida at one time. They
took over the old GE NiCad business and were doing Li-Ion.

<http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/electro-energy-receives-first-order-for-us-produced-18650-lithium-ion-batteries-nasdaq-eeei-846281.htm>

<http://www.gainesville.com/article/20150117/ARTICLES/150119704>

>
>> The screwed up part of selling bicycle accessories is that the shops
>> demand Keystone margins (100% mark-up) and you can't sell direct to
>> consumers at less than your MSRP.
>
> "Fair Trade" is still alive and well.

Yeah, WTF happened? It was gone for a long time, now you have MAP
(Minimum Advertised Price) to try to get around it. Of course it tends
to be a losing battle for most product categories and it enables
competitors to have a market for products with high margins and low cost
of entry.

> Welcome to product marketing. In this case, the product needs to find
> a compatible buyer. The average impulse bicycle light buyer is NOT
> going to buy a $400 light at an LBS which could exceed the cost of the
> bicycle. The typical Amazon shopper is NOT going to buy a $400 light
> unless he has previously seen, used, and evaluated the product. Each
> price tier has it's corresponding typical customer.

But the typical Amazon buyer may buy a $125 bicycle light that has a
four or five star rating and that is at least shipped by Amazon.

> How can you tell it's good? Have you seen one in action?

Yes.

> Agreed, if all he wants to do is sell direct. I don't know the market
> well enough to determine if direct sales or retail is the optimum
> approach. Each has their advantages. My best suggestion would be for
> him to look at the prices of the nearest competitors selling similar
> lights, and see how well they're doing in direct sales, mail odor, or
> retail, and then try to steal some of their business. Unless the
> light does something new and innovative, it's not going to create a
> new market.

In my area, there are a lot of Magicshine and Magicshine clones out on
the road. They work acceptably well but have their issues. They tend to
use the cheapest, lowest-capacity, cells in their 4 cell battery packs.
The mount is not the greatest, though it works okay, at least on
straight bars. Would someone spending $69.99 on a MJ-808E spend $125 for
one of Barry's lights instead? Maybe, if they understood the advantages.

[Gary Young]

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:31:41 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
<snip>

> Can the BC21R be charged while the light is on?

I don't know. I don't own the BC21R and don't see anything about this in Fenix's literature:

http://fenixlight.com/ProductMore.aspx?id=2194&tid=28&cid=3#.VsSpiCArLC0

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 09:45:58 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Much interesting material there, but I simply called Cygo,
>asked for the GM and got a prompt polite response that the
>product components are USA sourced. I have no reason to
>doubt him but there's no airtight evidence of that either.

Everyone lies, but that's ok because nobody listens.

"Complying with the Made in USA Standard"
<https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard>
Marketers and manufacturers that promote their products as
Made in USA must meet the "all or virtually all" standard.

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and
processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin.
That is, the product should contain no or negligible foreign
content.

Buy American Act - Requires that a product be manufactured
in the U.S. of more than 50 percent U.S. parts to be
considered Made in USA for government procurement purposes."

I would have a problem with any bicycle light that contains a LiIon
battery as being 100% domestic content. To the best of my knowledge,
there are no domestic LiIon battery manufacturers. Most everything
else in the light, including the Cree XM-L2 LED, could be made in the
USA. Although the custom plastic parts carry a very low piece price,
if amortized tooling and othe front end expenses were included in the
parts costs, they might easily be the most expensive parts in the
light. Since the battery is a fairly small part of the component cost
of the light, "vitually all" is a suitable description.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 10:54:32 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>You never owned a red convertible? Really? Man, you haven't
>lived.

It wasn't mine but does riding around in an antique red fire engine
qualify? I also helped restore one, but never got to ride in it.

The local Ford dealer has a red convertable something in his showroom
window. It's been there for the 40 years I've been in the area. It
changes every few years to keep up with the latest model changes. I
asked about it (20 years ago) and discovered it's one of the few cars
on the lot that are 100% owned by Ford. At the time, the dealer said
that he never sold one although the sales people do sometimes take it
out for rides and events. Next time I'm near the lot, I'll ask and
take some photos.

BTW, red convertables allegedly attract police attention and expensive
speeding tickets. The paint also tends to fade in sunlight.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/17/2016 8:49 AM, sms wrote:
>
>
> You don't see many bicycles with dynamo lights in the U.S., but when you
> do, the rider almost always has a second light as well (either being
> carried somewhere, or mounted on the handlebars).

More myths from Mr. Scharf. BTW, how would you know the rider has a
second light "carried somewhere"? Do you inspect riders' bike bags?

I have dynamo lights on five bikes. I have a giveaway coin cell pocket
light inside just one of their handlebar bags.

> It's necessary for
> three reasons:
> 1) you need a battery powered light for repairs

That can be handy. On the other hand, unless a person is riding way out
in the boondocks, there are usually street lamps not far away.

> 2) you need a higher power light for places where the output of a dynamo
> light is not sufficient

This is the myth that drives the lumen wars. Good quality LED dynamo
headlamps produce enough road illumination for at _least_ 20 mph, and
that's better than the vast majority of bike headlights.

> 3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
> the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
> foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
> _expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

Point number three is a combination of outright lie and absolute
bullshit. Only a minuscule percentage of American cyclists use front
flashing lights in daytime. It's not "the new normal," simply because
it's not necessary. It's not even desirable.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I note that Fenix is attempting to address the problem of dazzling other
road users with round beams, i.e. beams not shaped properly for road use.

However, their beam shots seem to indicate too much brightness close to
the rider. It's better to have an even level of road illumination,
which means throwing fewer lumens down close in front of the rider, and
progressively more as distance from the rider increases, ending at a
horizontal cutoff for most of the beam. Bike headlights with better
optics do that, as do auto and motorcycle headlights.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-02-17 01:21, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 16.02.2016 um 16:31 schrieb sms:
>
>> A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
>> It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
>> you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
>> dynamo.
>>
>> You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.
>
> Certainly not.

If this was a design challenge with a large enough budget I would most
certainly take that on. As a product with sufficient volume it can be
built for under $10.

However, I don't see much of a market for it.


> ... You know that a dynamo is a 'fixed-power' source not a

> 'fixed-voltage' source and that therefore it is pretty non-trivial to
> keep to the USB spec of 'exactly 5V, at most 500mA'.
>

It is not a fixed power source but a more or less constant current
source, provided the speed is above a threshold. You can get away need a
buck converter and a TVS that caps at some high voltage (tens of volts)
in case the load is pulled or is low. Powerful buck switcher ICs under
50 cents can be had from manufacturers such as Richtek, Diodes Inc. and
others.


> You can buy a USB dynamo adapter for $100, ...


Way too expensive.


> ... and you can build one maybe

> for $30 with the circuits downloadable from the internet, and I do not
> see much benefit of such a system compared to using standard good
> dynamo-driven LED lights: only meaningful use might be an additional
> 'high beam' that you charge during the day and might switch on at night
> for fast downhill sections.
>

A dynamo-charger plus Li-Ion battery would make a lot of sense on a
bicycle but the industry is asleep at the wheel when it comes to stuff
like this. So we have to build our own systems.

I don't have a dynamo because they aren't popular here in the US and I
don't like to spoke up a new front wheel. So I have a 60 watt-hour
Li-Ion battery and this allows 5h rides with the front light on full
bore most of the time, much brighter than any dynamo light can ever be.
When I return home and park the bike in the garage it gets plugged in
and recharged. It has a charge port under the seat.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[AMuzi]

On 2/17/2016 11:47 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 10:54:32 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> You never owned a red convertible? Really? Man, you haven't
>> lived.
>
> It wasn't mine but does riding around in an antique red fire engine
> qualify? I also helped restore one, but never got to ride in it.
>
> The local Ford dealer has a red convertable something in his showroom
> window. It's been there for the 40 years I've been in the area. It
> changes every few years to keep up with the latest model changes. I
> asked about it (20 years ago) and discovered it's one of the few cars
> on the lot that are 100% owned by Ford. At the time, the dealer said
> that he never sold one although the sales people do sometimes take it
> out for rides and events. Next time I'm near the lot, I'll ask and
> take some photos.
>
> BTW, red convertables allegedly attract police attention and expensive
> speeding tickets. The paint also tends to fade in sunlight.
>

Ask me how I know that.
Oh, and yes modern red pigments suck all around, it's the
one color that hasn't kept up in paint progress.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 7:50:07 AM UTC-6, sms wrote:
>
> You don't see many bicycles with dynamo lights in the U.S., but when you
> do, the rider almost always has a second light as well (either being
> carried somewhere, or mounted on the handlebars). It's necessary for
> three reasons:
> 1) you need a battery powered light for repairs
> 2) you need a higher power light for places where the output of a dynamo
> light is not sufficient
> 3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
> the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
> foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
> _expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

I will agree with your assertion that dynamo light riders usually carry a second light. I have a small light mounted on my helmet at all times. If a flat occurs at night, I have light to change it. And I recall using it in the rain on PBP 2007 at night because the old halogen generator lights I used were not overly bright in the downpour at 2AM.

Have not found any places where the dynamo light is not powerful enough, especially since the new LED lights became the norm a few years ago. But maybe night time is darker where you live and you need more light.

Front daytime flashers are the new norm for riding during the daytime and are expected by car drivers? Did not know that. We have lots of law breakers and non conformists where I live apparently. In my area I run into more than a few car drivers who do not expect to even see a bike rider, let alone one with a flashing front light. I suppose in your area where there are twice as many bike riders as car drivers, a non flashing bicyclist could get lost in the constant line of flashing bicyclists on the road.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 12:57:28 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/17/2016 11:47 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 10:54:32 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You never owned a red convertible? Really? Man, you haven't
>>> lived.
>>
>> It wasn't mine but does riding around in an antique red fire engine
>> qualify? I also helped restore one, but never got to ride in it.
>>
>> The local Ford dealer has a red convertable something in his showroom
>> window. It's been there for the 40 years I've been in the area. It
>> changes every few years to keep up with the latest model changes. I
>> asked about it (20 years ago) and discovered it's one of the few cars
>> on the lot that are 100% owned by Ford. At the time, the dealer said
>> that he never sold one although the sales people do sometimes take it
>> out for rides and events. Next time I'm near the lot, I'll ask and
>> take some photos.
>>
>> BTW, red convertables allegedly attract police attention and expensive
>> speeding tickets. The paint also tends to fade in sunlight.

>Ask me how I know that.

Let me guess... you owned a red convertible? Let me also guess that
you were not married at the time.

<http://www.jimboarmy.com/phpbb_6/viewtopic.php?p=2788&sid=10eb9151605c6d11821b1739adb2a845>
For the same reason car showrooms used to have the red convertible
in them and not the family sedan. SEX!!!! At least according to
the old book The Hidden Persuaders, the red convertible represented
a sexy mistress to the guy and got him in the place, then the
salesman targets the husband/wife combination with a family sedan.

We won't talk about the red 1970 Land Rover Series IIa that I used to
drive:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/land_rover3.html>
and yes, the top comes off so I can play convertible. That was fun
until I hit the fog.

>Oh, and yes modern red pigments suck all around, it's the
>one color that hasn't kept up in paint progress.

Yep. That's one reason that some fire engines are now painted yellow
or lime green.

[jbeattie]

Safety angst overcame me this morning -- I jumped on my commuter and noticed that my bars were bare. My blinky was gone. Did someone steal it . . . No. I just had it on the recharger and forgot because I drank too much wine at a business function before riding home last night.

I immediately ran back in the house, got my lucky blinky, strapped it to the bars and turned it on. Aaaaaaah. Safe again. How did I ride for 50 years without one?

We should have telethons and pledge drives to provide blinkies to the blinkie-less. We need to help those who cannot help themselves, many of them here in Portland -- where only one out of eight riders uses a DRL. The horror! http://image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width620/img/commuting/photo/13584550-mmmain.jpg

Note how the DRL-less riders are virtually invisible to the naked eye. What are these people thinking? https://share.america.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AP110512115301.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 2/17/2016 10:43 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-02-17 01:21, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 16.02.2016 um 16:31 schrieb sms:
>>
>>> A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
>>> It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
>>> you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
>>> dynamo.
>>>
>>> You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.
>>
>> Certainly not.
>
>
> If this was a design challenge with a large enough budget I would most
> certainly take that on. As a product with sufficient volume it can be
> built for under $10.

I think that a lot of people don't realize just how cheap the components
are.

A lot of people have made these using a bridge rectifier, a 78L05, and a
few caps. This design works and it would cost about $4 in low volumes
but it's rather inefficient. If you increase the cost by using a
Schottky bridge rectifier and a more efficient switching regulator, it
would up the cost to about $7 in low volume. That's without an
enclosure. You'd want to pot the board and use a tiny enclosure.

You don't need much of a budget for this. You can build it on a single
sided PCB.

There are several commercial versions of these at very high prices.

[AMuzi]

Yep, I've owned quite a few fast pretty cars, never married.
Choices, eh?

The first neon yellowish green fire engines I recall were
when I was working in Florida in 1969. The ostensible reason
was higher visibility in traffic but of course you never
know. (paint supplier greased the PFC or whatever).

At any rate 1969 predates the EPA, so pigment
cost/availability was unlikely to be at the root of it. I
know car buffs in SoCal who had paint done in Mexico in the
1970s and 1980s when anything CAL EPA compliant was total
crap but that's another tangent.

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 2:06:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/15/2016 12:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
> > On 2016-02-15 10:22, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 9:48:45 AM UTC-6, Joerg
> >> wrote:
> -snippy snip snip-
> > Sure they go out. Stop somewhere and it either goes to a dim
> > "stand light" or out. My car headlights don't do that. "
>
> Seems like a not-Lucas system. Is your three-way switch
> marked "DIM-FLICKER-OFF" ?

>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

now now let's be fair ..

https://goo.gl/1SGhzf

these light threds are too much Dude. itslikeitslikeitslike yawl gained 5 IQ points since lunch

[Duane]

I would prefer to have telethons and pledge drives to provide wine to
the wineless.

> Note how the DRL-less riders are virtually invisible to the naked eye. What are these people thinking? https://share.america.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AP110512115301.jpg
>

It's almost like they're wearing camo kits.

[avag...@gmail.com]

raffinatezza .....http://www.harrymartincartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/WP-various-tool-kits.png

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 2:56:43 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped

>Note how the DRL-less riders are virtually invisible to the naked eye. What are these people thinking? https://share.america.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AP110512115301.jpg
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Access denied = hotlinking not allowed.

how do you get to see the image?

Cheers

[jbeattie]

Hmm. I click on them, and they come up. I'm not computer literate enough to know why they're not working for you. Maybe you're on a watch-list of some sort.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Link works for me.
Maybe they confused him with Sir Jihadalot

[sms]

It displays for me. It proves just how important it is to be
conspicuous, whether it's through bright clothing or other means. And of
course they are riding in a bike lane and there's a large number of
riders which also helps. So if you were trying to use that photo to
prove that DRLs are of no value than you failed miserably.

[Duane]

They open for me.

[Duane]

I don't know if Jay is trying to prove DRLs are of NO value. But you
seem to be implying that they are mandatory. Like I said, maybe it's a
west coast thing.

[jbeattie]

No, I was using them to prove that DRLs are not SOP in PDX. Note that the one person with a DRL is dressed entirely in black. Sure hope the light works.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 2/17/2016 11:56 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> I immediately ran back in the house, got my lucky blinky, strapped it to the bars and turned it on. Aaaaaaah. Safe again. How did I ride for 50 years without one?

You were able to ride for those 50 years, but you were risk
compensating. Now you have become smart enough to use a blinky. Be
smart, not sarcastic.

> We should have telethons and pledge drives to provide blinkies to the blinkie-less. We need to help those who cannot help themselves, many of them here in Portland -- where only one out of eight riders uses a DRL. The horror! http://image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width620/img/commuting/photo/13584550-mmmain.jpg

It's already being done in many cities. Well pledge drives help fund the
lights, not sure about any telethons.

<http://www.bikingbis.com/2007/10/31/free-bicycle-lights-in-washington-dc-seattle-portland/>
<http://www.sfbike.org/news/its-time-to-light-up-the-night/>
<http://www.bikemaine.org/coalition-news/bike-brightly-campaign-launches-with-light-giveaway-and-night-ride>
<https://bikeeastbay.org/events/operacion-luz-bike-light-giveaway-concord>
<http://www.biketexas.org/es/education/besafebebright>

I think that I saw Frank grabbing handfuls of them.

> Note how the DRL-less riders are virtually invisible to the naked eye. What are these people thinking? https://share.america.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AP110512115301.jpg

They are thinking, "we are in Oregon, there's a lot of us, the road has
a bike lane, drivers are cycle aware, and most of us are wearing bright
clothing."

Geez, Oregon is so WHITE!

[sms]

On 2/17/2016 1:30 PM, Duane wrote:

> I don't know if Jay is trying to prove DRLs are of NO value. But you
> seem to be implying that they are mandatory. Like I said, maybe it's a
> west coast thing.

They are not mandated by law. If I implied that, it was not intentional.

[avag...@gmail.com]

how do you get to see the image?

1. remove finger

2. copy link into Word

3. remoooooove line

4. remove 's'

5. paste mod link into url box

7. tap arrow

8. view JB leading fellow legal eagles in Portland.

[Duane]

No I mean that you seem to be implying that they are necessary and are
widely used. Jay seems to be saying that they aren't necessary nor
widely used. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding that as well?

I don't ride on the west coast but I tend to agree with Jay based on
what I see here in Quebec or the northeast US where I do ride and where
I seldom see DRLs on bikes.

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 7:56:43 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Note how the DRL-less riders are virtually invisible to the naked eye. What are these people thinking? https://share.america.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AP110512115301.jpg

WTF?

****
Access denied
The owner of this website (share.america.gov) does not allow hotlinking to that resource (/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AP110512115301.jpg).

Ray ID: 276500b923282957
Timestamp: 2016-02-17 22:41:59 UTC
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Big Brother says, "Freedom of information. Well, fuck you very much." And, "We know your IP, so we can find you, so don't rock the boat by asking to see photos we published for your information."

Dumb and Dumber are never out of work; they have government jobs.

Andre Jute

[sms]

They are widely used in the Bay Area and in Southern California.

I posted a link to an article about them recently
<http://stevetilford.com/2016/02/03/daytime-riding-lights/> where the
author said 40% of riders he saw were using them. But he was doing
recreational rides, so I think that's why the percentage he observed was
rather low. For commuting, I observe a much higher percentage than that
in Silicon Valley, at least among people riding to work.

OTOH, on Thursday mornings I go to my Toastmasters club which is across
the street from a high school, and the meeting starts the same time that
school starts so I'm riding with a lot of high school kids and very few
have lights of any kind. That's my "scary ride" of the week because
between vehicles barreling through crosswalks, bicycles on sidewalks,
and other craziness, I could use a Valium by the time I get to the
meeting. Driving there is equally scary, and it takes longer.

The article states "I saw the results from a couple different studies
that show that the lights reduce chances of collisions with cars
somewhere between 19-35%." Perhaps, but the advantage I experience is
having to make a lot less evasive maneuvers, and a lot less having to
yield the right of way when I have the right of way.

It's sometimes hard to convince people to act in their own best
interests when it comes to using safety equipment while riding, but in
the case of commuting cyclists most of them already have the necessary
equipment on their bikes, they just need to be willing to use it. There
are probably no battery powered bicycle lights for sale anymore that
lack a flash mode. Due to StVZO's insanity, dynamo lights rarely have a
flash mode, but eventually the regulators will come to their senses.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/17/2016 4:25 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/17/2016 1:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 1:04:58 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 2:56:43 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>>> Snipped
>>>> Note how the DRL-less riders are virtually invisible to the naked
>>>> eye. What are these people thinking?
>>>> https://share.america.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AP110512115301.jpg
>>>>
>>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>
>>> Access denied = hotlinking not allowed.
>>>
>>> how do you get to see the image?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>
>> Hmm. I click on them, and they come up. I'm not computer literate
>> enough to know why they're not working for you. Maybe you're on a
>> watch-list of some sort.
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.
>
> It displays for me. It proves just how important it is to be
> conspicuous, whether it's through bright clothing or other means.

Are you _really_ pretending you can't see the riders who are dressed in
dark blue, dark green, black with no lights, etc?

As I've said before, I can't recall an incident where a cyclist's
daytime light (front or back) made any practical difference. In decades
of driving sag for a century ride, I think I've always seen the rider
sooner than any light.

As I posted recently:

"We recently spent a week visiting old friends in a large, modern city
in a warmer climate. It's the kind of city where people have to do lots
of driving to get from their condo to the shopping mall, restaurants,
music venues, bars, etc. And almost all the driving was on wide
suburban boulevards with lots of traffic.

"Anyway, I didn't see many cyclists, but I clearly remember spotting one
on a cloudy day. He was about half a mile ahead as we were driving
along and conversing. When we got to within about a tenth of a mile
from the guy, I noticed he had two blinky taillights going.

"I think the visibility advantage was just as significant as the thrust
advantage. You know, the thrust from all those photons blasting out the
back."

> And of
> course they are riding in a bike lane and there's a large number of
> riders which also helps.

Um... because bicyclists become transparent when they are on a normal road??

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/17/2016 6:18 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/17/2016 1:59 PM, Duane wrote:
>> On 17/02/2016 4:38 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 2/17/2016 1:30 PM, Duane wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know if Jay is trying to prove DRLs are of NO value. But you
>>>> seem to be implying that they are mandatory. Like I said, maybe it's a
>>>> west coast thing.
>>>
>>> They are not mandated by law. If I implied that, it was not intentional.
>>>
>>
>> No I mean that you seem to be implying that they are necessary and are
>> widely used. Jay seems to be saying that they aren't necessary nor
>> widely used. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding that as well?
>>
>> I don't ride on the west coast but I tend to agree with Jay based on
>> what I see here in Quebec or the northeast US where I do ride and where
>> I seldom see DRLs on bikes.
>
> They are widely used in the Bay Area and in Southern California.
>
> I posted a link to an article about them recently
> <http://stevetilford.com/2016/02/03/daytime-riding-lights/> where the
> author said 40% of riders he saw were using them.

He said that on ONE ride, two out of the five people on the ride were
using them. He did not say that 40% of the riders he saw were using them.

Next Scharf trick: To say that he was on a ride where 100% of the
riders used them - and not mention that it was just Scharf on a solo ride!

And only Scharf could portray that article as a ringing endorsement of
daytime lights.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Barry Beams]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.
>
> It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.
>
> Cheers

Flashing bike lights are as bad a brainwashing of the bicycling community as the edit to ride on the side of the lane. Countless bikers have been pinched out and J hooked by cars because the biker failed to take the lane.

If you think that flashing is more visible, try it for yourself. Put your bike 150 feet up the road with a blinky. Now put the taillight on solid.
Repeat with white headlights.
Now turn your head away for a split second, as a car driver would when looking around at an intersection or fumbling with a phone or radio in the car. Notice that sometimes you catch the blink in the off phase, so you don't see the light on at all?

That shows why Europeans require solid taillights, and even in the US, car headlights must be on solidly, and may not blink.

@Andre, very well said (two posts ago, not the bad link)

Blinking showed up in white flashlights and bike lights so that absurd burn times can be claimed. Real daytime visibility is best with a solidly on white light, which varies brightness within a limited range. These give a "twinkling" effect in the viewers eyes, most effective way to get seen from within a daytime ambient light field that's always much brighter than the flashlight itself. That's because the eye adjusts to the ambient light field, not the the small spot that's twinkling. so the brain notices the twinkle as relevant, instead of trying to either filter it out quickly or rapidly adjust without being able to process any other visual input, because the bright flash overpowers the intensity of other visual input that could be relevant.
At night, when the light is a much brighter point source than ambient, the eye keeps trying and failing to adapt because the light's intensity keeps changing. So neither the rider nor the viewer can see what's being lit up when the light flashes on, and definitely not when the light is off.

But some of you will argue forever anyway, and I have better uses for my time than to try to declare Salt when a contrarian needs to claim Pepper.

[sms]

On 2/17/2016 10:43 AM, Joerg wrote:

> It is not a fixed power source but a more or less constant current
> source, provided the speed is above a threshold. You can get away need a
> buck converter and a TVS that caps at some high voltage (tens of volts)
> in case the load is pulled or is low. Powerful buck switcher ICs under
> 50 cents can be had from manufacturers such as Richtek, Diodes Inc. and
> others.

I put together a BOM for one. Doing it the easy way, using a TI module
with the regulator and magnetics
(http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pth08080w.pdf) for $4, I came out with
about $8 in component cost in 100 quantity, including a PCB made in the
U.S.. Sending it to China in large quantities probably half that.

One expensive component is the ripple capacitor for the bridge
rectifier. You need a pretty high value cap because the frequency of the
dynamo is so low. You need to work with a hub dynamo that can be running
at a very low frequency at low speed, 10-12 Hz. I calculate around
6800uF. But I'm not sure of this. It's likely that at that slow of a
speed the input voltage to the regulator is not going to even be high
enough for the regulator to turn on anyway, so I could probably use a
lower value cap.

I would not use any USB jack, I'd build it with a cable with a Micro
USB, Lightning plug, or barrel plug. Apple charges $4 per Lightning
connector in royalties, so there's no cheap Lightning cables around.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 7:04:54 PM UTC-5, Barry Beams wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.
> >
> > It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.
> >
> > Cheers
>
> Flashing bike lights are as bad a brainwashing of the bicycling community as the edit to ride on the side of the lane. Countless bikers have been pinched out and J hooked by cars because the biker failed to take the lane.
>
> If you think that flashing is more visible, try it for yourself. Put your bike 150 feet up the road with a blinky. Now put the taillight on solid.
> Repeat with white headlights.
> Now turn your head away for a split second, as a car driver would when looking around at an intersection or fumbling with a phone or radio in the car. Notice that sometimes you catch the blink in the off phase, so you don't see the light on at all?
>
> That shows why Europeans require solid taillights, and even in the US, car headlights must be on solidly, and may not blink.
>

Snipped the rant against Andre.

> But some of you will argue forever anyway, and I have better uses for my time than to try to declare Salt when a contrarian needs to claim Pepper.

I see that you've failed to either ead the post I made and that you quoted or you've failed to comprehend it. I said that the light on the hub dynamo I tried flickered very badly and was like a strobe. I NEVER said I wanted or used a flashing light. Sheesh, talk about strawman arguments!

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2016-02-17 16:21, sms wrote:
> On 2/17/2016 10:43 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> It is not a fixed power source but a more or less constant current
>> source, provided the speed is above a threshold. You can get away need a
>> buck converter and a TVS that caps at some high voltage (tens of volts)
>> in case the load is pulled or is low. Powerful buck switcher ICs under
>> 50 cents can be had from manufacturers such as Richtek, Diodes Inc. and
>> others.
>
> I put together a BOM for one. Doing it the easy way, using a TI module
> with the regulator and magnetics
> (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pth08080w.pdf) for $4, I came out with
> about $8 in component cost in 100 quantity, including a PCB made in the
> U.S.. Sending it to China in large quantities probably half that.
>

I always roll my own switch-mode converters. Although after doing that
for 30+ years it gets old. Modules are mostly too expensive and I'd
consider $4 too much.

> One expensive component is the ripple capacitor for the bridge
> rectifier. You need a pretty high value cap because the frequency of the
> dynamo is so low. You need to work with a hub dynamo that can be running
> at a very low frequency at low speed, 10-12 Hz. I calculate around
> 6800uF. But I'm not sure of this. It's likely that at that slow of a
> speed the input voltage to the regulator is not going to even be high
> enough for the regulator to turn on anyway, so I could probably use a
> lower value cap.
>

If you use a proper system with a battery like automotive folks do then
a large cap isn't needed. Electrolytics aren't so great anyhow because
one must always consider temperature extremes. Bike parked overnight in
nother Siberia, or in the glistening sun of Arizona.

Just let the regulator cut in and out all the time. It won't mind if
designed right. I'd even look at half-cycle by half-cycle MPPT although
that's almost overkill here. Maybe poor-man's MPPT with a fixed slope.

> I would not use any USB jack, I'd build it with a cable with a Micro
> USB, Lightning plug, or barrel plug. Apple charges $4 per Lightning
> connector in royalties, so there's no cheap Lightning cables around.
>

USB is a bit flimsy, I'd use spade lugs or a spade-style Molex
connector. Barrels are ok but I recently had one dinged by a rock hit.

BTW, with budget I meant design budget, engineeering and other NRE.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[avag...@gmail.com]

I seldom see DRLs on bikes.

the generator group logs miles on the autobahn
, flat ground, open roads, uh uh in areas tending toward night safety that is generator riders are generally not found riding around Miami or LA at 11PM.

Reason for that as JB found n reported in the JB Generator blogs is variable light output during variable speed routes.

There is so far no regulator mixing battery with generator system. I may be out of touch on that but last I looked that's it.

Its expensive. The group doing it herein has $$$ send on their electric bike equipment hobby.

Why not the RBT group DIY the rig ? they demure as too necessity. All talk.

James in Tasmania could do it but he runs straight lines at speed not around the tree and thru the cemetery like JB

I use Cateye's.no longer ride at night and have a Trans Continental Ford E250 with a custom what ? electric system. I had a ham radio license.

Why no regulator mixing battery with generator system ? commercially price goes up n the equipment moves out of the traditional makers of these generators homey terrotories. They see, kinda medieval. lookem up online they'll give you a tour.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Andre Jute...I accessed JB's POB ect. I believe the POB accessed that info n morphed it a bit photo wise.

but everything email gets your whatever. that's in the server.

[sms]

On 2/17/2016 5:25 PM, Joerg wrote:

> If you use a proper system with a battery like automotive folks do then
> a large cap isn't needed. Electrolytics aren't so great anyhow because
> one must always consider temperature extremes. Bike parked overnight in
> nother Siberia, or in the glistening sun of Arizona.

Well that's what made that cap so expensive, I chose a low ESR cap with
a -40 to 105 C temperature range and a guaranteed 10,000 hour life.
$1.13 for the cap in 100 piece quantities. Ouch.