Age and Speed

[Tom Kunich]

As I said before, I am 78 and now over the hump. My riding speed is now so slow that I prefer to ride alone despite the fact that it is more dangerous to do so. But experience teaches me the proper techniques and methods of riding in a safer manner than. A good average speed for a climbing ride is now 10-11 mph though if Redwood Road were to open again I would think that would rapidly improve since the climbs and the steepness of them are properly spaced to give you performance workouts that otherwise you need a special training regime for.

Flat rides are now averaging a little over 11 mph since there are no fast descents and you have to continuously pedal.

I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with black kit. Team Sky started that and in because the in thing rather than bright noticeable colors. How many cyclist deaths do you suppose could be attributed to drivers already somewhat distracted by radios and cell phones and navigation aids simply not noticing a dark kit on the road until it is too late?

My one accident with a car taught me that I should not try to be nice to people driving distracted and should immediately get a lawyer. The only thing that works is the fear of losing their license which they will do if they cannot buy insurance.

My route today goes over a dangerous route and is often jammed with traffic and with people in a hurry often trying to pass in the bike lane. Being aware of those people is helpful and my rear view mirror is part of that. I was unaware of the rear approach radar that Lou spoke of and I will have to look into it. But I suspect that it will notify of cars approaching normally which doesn't make it very useful.

I have been watching the sorts of people that continue riding into the ages of me and the people I often ride with (70-90) and none of them were racers unless you can say that I was a serious racer which I wouldn't.

So maybe a focus on speed is not going to do you well in the long run.

[Catrike Rider]

I'm 78 years old, too, and I gave up pushing myself for speed a couple
of years ago. Nowdays, I usually ride 40 miles and I'm averaging
btween 12 and 13 MPH on the mostly flat trails I ride.

[William Crowell]

76 here, and still trying to ride, but I have lost a lot of stamina, so I can't do those long rides anymore, and wind, so I can't climb the really steep hills anymore, either. I never was a racer, only a tourist.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/25/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with black kit.

Let them have their choice.

I'm irked by people who claim riding a bike is dangerous unless done in
garishly colored faux team kit - AKA "full mating plumage."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 09:22:31 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

>76 here, and still trying to ride, but I have lost a lot of stamina, so I can't do those long rides anymore, and wind, so I can't climb the really steep hills anymore, either. I never was a racer, only a tourist.

Just wait... it gets worse (:-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Mark Cleary]

I am 61 and about 8 years ago I could go out and pretty much nail 18mph on most rides of 25-50 miles without too much thought. If I pushed I could average 19. I think my solo century time was around 19mph. These days 18mph is a quick pace and I now seem to run 16.5 mph to 17.5. If I go above 18 it is because I felt good and was able to push the pace. I ride a lot of miles so some of it is just not having fresh legs and energy but I cannot do what I did that is for sure.
Deacon mark

[pH]

On 2023-05-25, William Crowell <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 76 here, and still trying to ride, but I have lost a lot of stamina, so I can't do those long rides anymore, and wind, so I can't climb the really steep hills anymore, either. I never was a racer, only a tourist.

And I'm in my mid 60's.
Hmm.....I'm seeing a subtle pattern here in Usenet usage!
I hope that it catches on again w/ the kids.

How knows, maybe it'll be so popular that we'll have moderated groups
again...I wonder if any of those are left....

pH in Aptos

[AMuzi]

Maybe you could spend a nice Sunday afternoon with Mr Kunich
commenting on other people's cycle clothing together. Or (as
a popular bar in my old neighborhood did for girls walking
by the window), hold up ratings cards as they ride past.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

If anyone considers our little usenet chat thing uncivil or
sharp or snarky, ask to see what young people are reading
all day long. Social media is an absolute toilet if not a
cesspool. I do not subscribe but daughter sends screenshots
of things found on grandsons' telephones (yes she monitors
them).

[William Crowell]

pH, I hate moderated groups and refuse to participate in any. I have better things to do than to have a bunch of freakin', easily-triggered airheads tell me what I can say.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 9:22:33 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> 76 here, and still trying to ride, but I have lost a lot of stamina, so I can't do those long rides anymore, and wind, so I can't climb the really steep hills anymore, either. I never was a racer, only a tourist.

I haven't felt in shape this year since early February before the rains started and I could do the 37 mile 3300 feet of climbing ride. I was just getting back into somewhat shape when the rains came and drowned that ride completely out.

Since I haven't been able to get in shape, the metric centuries I normally do have been out of the question. Now I don't know if I could even get back there again. I do note that a lot of people I rode with have had worse trouble than I. They are now down to only the Saturday ride.

[Tom Kunich]

Punk kid!

[Tom Kunich]

I am concerned about their safety and not what they look like. People might not miss you if they can't see you. I wore my bright orange togs today and people gave me more than enough clearance even in the dangerous places.

[Sir Ridesalot]

But it's so nice to open a thread (that hasn't been hijacked) and see On Topic posts related to the Subject Title of the thread.

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

+1

I am banned from the Bicycling Magazine forum. But you aren't missing much. The questions and answers are all from airheads like Frank and John. Jeff and Flunky aren't exactly airheads but they want to be.

[Tom Kunich]

But invariably they are like this group used to be when Jobst was still alive - little more than personality groups with a head personality and little else. That's OK if the forum leader is a person interested in only talking about the subject, but many of them are not and it all becomes about them. There are a LOT of moderated bicycling forums. Just do a search and see if you like them better than here. It gets really tiresome explaining to people over and over why American bottom brackets are reverse threaded.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 16:01:35 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/25/2023 11:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/25/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with
>>> black kit.
>>
>> Let them have their choice.
>>
>> I'm irked by people who claim riding a bike is dangerous
>> unless done in garishly colored faux team kit - AKA "full
>> mating plumage."
>>
>
>Maybe you could spend a nice Sunday afternoon with Mr Kunich
>commenting on other people's cycle clothing together. Or (as
>a popular bar in my old neighborhood did for girls walking
>by the window), hold up ratings cards as they ride past.

Chesty's and/or The Pub...

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 15:19:44 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

+1

[AMuzi]

On 5/25/2023 5:19 PM, William Crowell wrote:

I'm with you.
No invective or expletive is as offensive as censorship.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 15:25:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I almost always wear black because that's what I want to wear.

[John B.]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 3:19:46?PM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:

And this from a bloke that one of the pundits of cycling described as:

"rude and obnoxious, always carping while offering no
useful information."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Schwegler's The Pub.

The Inter Webs didn't archive an image of the iconic girl
rating cards.

[AMuzi]

On 5/25/2023 6:03 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Thu, 25 May 2023 15:25:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 2:03:23?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/25/2023 11:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with
>>>>> black kit.
>>>>
>>>> Let them have their choice.
>>>>
>>>> I'm irked by people who claim riding a bike is dangerous
>>>> unless done in garishly colored faux team kit - AKA "full
>>>> mating plumage."
>>>>
>>> Maybe you could spend a nice Sunday afternoon with Mr Kunich
>>> commenting on other people's cycle clothing together. Or (as
>>> a popular bar in my old neighborhood did for girls walking
>>> by the window), hold up ratings cards as they ride past.
>>>

>> I am concerned about their safety and not what they look like. People might not miss you if they can't see you. I wore my bright orange togs today and people gave me more than enough clearance even in the dangerous places.
>
> I almost always wear black because that's what I want to wear.
>

That's as good a reason as any.
I also wear mostly black.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/25/2023 8:24 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I also wear mostly black.

The last three times we went to Europe, my only jacket was black. Much
of my riding was in black cycling tights as well. I never noticed a
visibility problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Back in the early sixties, I visited a few of the State Street's 18-YO
bars. I don't remember the girl rating cards, but I remember sitting
in the window watching girls walk by. The cards must have come later.

[John B.]

What's with you people... sitting in a bar and peeping out the window?
Why not go and invite her in for a drink?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 11:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/25/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with
>>> black kit.
>>
>> Let them have their choice.
>>
>> I'm irked by people who claim riding a bike is dangerous
>> unless done in garishly colored faux team kit - AKA "full
>> mating plumage."
>>
>
> Maybe you could spend a nice Sunday afternoon with Mr Kunich
> commenting on other people's cycle clothing together. Or (as
> a popular bar in my old neighborhood did for girls walking
> by the window), hold up ratings cards as they ride past.
>

One of the common Surrey hills for roadies, has a old rail road bridge that
you can in summer at least cross on Gravel or MTB always fun to play Pooh
Sticks and ie have a watch of the folks attempting to climb said hill,
possibly offer encouragement!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Usenet is Social media just old! And has always been fairly snarky really.

Doesn’t have the numbers like others for group unpleasantness or commonly
used on your phone say, I could use it on my phone but prefer the size on
my iPad my preferred client when obsolete maybe a decade ago!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 26 May 2023 15:42:23 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Don't think I didn't try...I was 18 at the time, and most of the girls
walking by were college girls. This was in the early 60s and "picking
up" girls required more tact than it seems to require nowdays.

[John B.]

On Fri, 26 May 2023 06:32:57 -0400, Catrike Rider

I've always wondered. Were the girls really hard to impress or were we
real "rubes"?

Certainly with a few years experience I didn't find girls hard to "get
to know", but it sure was difficult in the late teens (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 26 May 2023 18:02:10 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Although I'd lost my virginity in high school, it had required a lot
more than a few pick-up lines.

I was still very much a rube during my college time. Many years
later, as a single man living on my 36 foot sloop near the beach bars
on the west coast of Florida,"things" were much easier.

I'd found an old, very used "Captain's" cap in a 2nd hand store, and
more than once it started a conversation with "are you really a
Captain?"

[Tom Kunich]

Catrike rides mostly on bicycle paths. If you do as well then wear anything you like.

[Tom Kunich]

Let me tell you about one of the local cycling roads around here. It is Niles Canyon. It is about 5 miles long and goes from Niles where a large part of the film industry started to Sunol which at one time was nothing more than a huge water processor. Now it is a small town with a post office and Kilkare Road that used to be lined with the homes of people with huge amounts of money but who have almost entirely moved to places like Texas and Florida. For awhile had For Sale signs on the entrance by the railway station but that brought on squatters so while not many of these homes have sold, they look like they're still inhabited.

Niles Canyon is a two lane very twisty road that has a rumble strip in the middle because so my people wander over the line and have head-on's. The bike lane is pretty non-existent with a shoulder that can run from nothing to 4 or 5 feet wide. There are three two lane bridges uphill west to east with no shoulder whatsoever. This is where most bicyclists are killed. The last three were wearing Team Sky kits.

Although it is completely illegal, at the entrance of the canyon in Niles, there is a sign that says "Begin Freeway" meaning essentially there is no speed limit in the canyon. That sign was placed by the highway department. A mile and a half in, is Palomares Rd. This is a favorite north-south climb for local cyclists. Along this road all of the farms have been put out of business and some of the hanger's on ranch cattle,. Thought there are two wineries and a monastery that is mostly out of business with the admittance of illicit sex by priests with boys. It is now largely used for Catholic Church parties and such. The climb past it is 10%.

Niles Canyon by bike means cars coming by within inches at 60 mph because there are no pull offs where cops can be watching. The turn off onto Palomares has a left turn lane but the opposite direction is blocked for eyesight by a train overpass;. So pulling over can get you hit from behind at high speed or from the front at high speed as traffic rounds a turn with forward visibility blocked by the foundation of the overpass. Also the initial climb up Palomares is over 12% for about 40 feet.

Be sure and chose a kit that gives traffic the least visibility so that you can rapidly become yet another statistic of Nikes Canyon. In other words, wear what you like because team kits are so garish.

[AMuzi]

After enough alcohol, nearly every woman scored a "ten".

[Catrike Rider]

Still true.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 18:06:42 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

>How knows, maybe it'll be so popular that we'll have moderated groups
>again...I wonder if any of those are left....
>
>pH in Aptos

I don't like moderated Usenet groups. I've been on both sides of the
equation as a user of moderated forums and as one of several
moderators involved in keeping a mailing list clean. My problem, as a
moderator, was that a moderated group attracts the attention of
lunatics who spend their time testing the limits of what the
moderators and readers will tolerate. It doesn't take long before the
moderators tire of the game and give up.

For those who want moderation, I can recommend you to several mailing
lists that are perpetually in search of the moderators. You need a
few weeks as acting moderator to appreciate the effort (and self
control) required. Please don't thank me as you will eventually hate
me.

Also, don't assume that all moderators are fair, impartial and
friendly. I had the displeasure of dealing with a Wikibooks
moderator, who's answer to a small difference of opinion was to remove
the entire article without notifying the owners. A friend had is page
removed entirely at random by a moderator who thought that he wasn't
doing his "job" unless he removed at least one page per week. If I
try hard, I'm sure I can find other moderator inspired "power trips".

"The surest sign of success is over-subscription and pollution".
(Me about 1984)



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 26 May 2023 08:16:57 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 25 May 2023 18:06:42 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
>wrote:
>
>>How knows, maybe it'll be so popular that we'll have moderated groups
>>again...I wonder if any of those are left....
>>
>>pH in Aptos

>I don't like moderated Usenet groups...

Sorry, I was interrupted by a phone call.

One more item on moderation. One of the goals of moderation was to
limit off-topic discussions. However, when the moderation was being
organized, moderation details soon became the prime (and probably
sole) topic of discussion. A day didn't drift by without at least one
complaint about excessive or insufficient moderation. Instead of
off-topic political discussions, we had off-topic moderation
discussions. This is not progress.

[Roger Meriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 08:16:57 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 18:06:42 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> How knows, maybe it'll be so popular that we'll have moderated groups
>>> again...I wonder if any of those are left....
>>>
>>> pH in Aptos
>
>> I don't like moderated Usenet groups...
>
> Sorry, I was interrupted by a phone call.
>
> One more item on moderation. One of the goals of moderation was to
> limit off-topic discussions. However, when the moderation was being
> organized, moderation details soon became the prime (and probably
> sole) topic of discussion. A day didn't drift by without at least one
> complaint about excessive or insufficient moderation. Instead of
> off-topic political discussions, we had off-topic moderation
> discussions. This is not progress.
>
>

Yup that was my experience as well Usenet didn’t really work well
moderated, plus the cycling one just became one man’s fiefdom and died.

[Tom Kunich]

Some of the moderated bicycle forums work very well if the moderator is only interested in keeping a specific thread on subject and people are free to open other threads on other bicycle related subjects. I am a member for all of them but Bicycle Magazine since they didn't like my opinions of their articles.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I am banned from the Bicycling Magazine forum. But you aren't
>missing much. The questions and answers are all from airheads
>like Frank and John. Jeff and Flunky aren't exactly airheads
>but they want to be.

Bicycling Magazine moved their forums to Facebook in 2017:
<https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20024496/forums-moved/>
when Hearst acquired Rodale. Almost no activity and mostly junk
posting in the new Facebook group:
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/744335499090150/>
Looks like Hearst abandoned it. The first message is a 2018
resignation by the forum administrator. I wouldn't worry too much
about being banned. With no readership and little membership, I think
it's safe for you to return.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycling_(magazine)>

I didn't see any questions or answers from anyone in the new Facebook
forums. I suspect that you didn't bother looking and just assumed
that the old forum, where you were banned, was still alive and that
there were questions and answers.

[pH]

On 2023-05-25, William Crowell <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 11:08:07 AM UTC-7, pH wrote:
>> On 2023-05-25, William Crowell <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 76 here, and still trying to ride, but I have lost a lot of stamina, so I can't do those long rides anymore, and wind, so I can't climb the really steep hills anymore, either. I never was a racer, only a tourist.
>> And I'm in my mid 60's.
>> Hmm.....I'm seeing a subtle pattern here in Usenet usage!
>> I hope that it catches on again w/ the kids.
>>

>> How knows, maybe it'll be so popular that we'll have moderated groups
>> again...I wonder if any of those are left....
>>
>> pH in Aptos

> pH, I hate moderated groups and refuse to participate in any. I have better things to do than to have a bunch of freakin', easily-triggered airheads tell me what I can say.

Understood. I think Usenet has shrunk to the degree that there probably
aren't any of those left, anyway. ...but I do remember a time...

pH

[pH]

On 2023-05-25, Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 3:25:50 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

>> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 5:19:46 p.m. UTC-5, William Crowell wrote:
>> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 11:08:07 AM UTC-7, pH wrote:
>> > > On 2023-05-25, William Crowell <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > 76 here, and still trying to ride, but I have lost a lot of stamina, so I can't do those long rides anymore, and wind, so I can't climb the really steep hills anymore, either. I never was a racer, only a tourist.
>> > > And I'm in my mid 60's.
>> > > Hmm.....I'm seeing a subtle pattern here in Usenet usage!
>> > > I hope that it catches on again w/ the kids.
>> > >
>> > > How knows, maybe it'll be so popular that we'll have moderated groups
>> > > again...I wonder if any of those are left....
>> > >
>> > > pH in Aptos
>> > pH, I hate moderated groups and refuse to participate in any. I have better things to do than to have a bunch of freakin', easily-triggered airheads tell me what I can say.

>> But it's so nice to open a thread (that hasn't been hijacked) and see On Topic posts related to the Subject Title of the thread.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> But invariably they are like this group used to be when Jobst was still alive - little more than personality groups with a head personality and little else. That's OK if the forum leader is a person interested in only talking about the subject, but many of them are not and it all becomes about them. There are a LOT of moderated bicycling forums. Just do a search and see if you like them better than here. It gets really tiresome explaining to people over and over why American bottom brackets are reverse threaded.

That's when you'd see the inevitable suggestion to "Read the FAQ".
Is there still a Frequently asked Questions somewhere? (cue Jeff L.'s
search skills)

pH

[AMuzi]

On 5/27/2023 2:02 PM, pH wrote:
> On 2023-05-25, Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 3:25:50 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 5:19:46 p.m. UTC-5, William Crowell wrote:

>>>> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 11:08:07 AM UTC-7, pH wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-05-25, William Crowell <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 76 here, and still trying to ride, but I have lost a lot of stamina, so I can't do those long rides anymore, and wind, so I can't climb the really steep hills anymore, either. I never was a racer, only a tourist.
>>>>> And I'm in my mid 60's.
>>>>> Hmm.....I'm seeing a subtle pattern here in Usenet usage!
>>>>> I hope that it catches on again w/ the kids.
>>>>>
>>>>> How knows, maybe it'll be so popular that we'll have moderated groups
>>>>> again...I wonder if any of those are left....
>>>>>
>>>>> pH in Aptos
>>>> pH, I hate moderated groups and refuse to participate in any. I have better things to do than to have a bunch of freakin', easily-triggered airheads tell me what I can say.
>>> But it's so nice to open a thread (that hasn't been hijacked) and see On Topic posts related to the Subject Title of the thread.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>
>> But invariably they are like this group used to be when Jobst was still alive - little more than personality groups with a head personality and little else. That's OK if the forum leader is a person interested in only talking about the subject, but many of them are not and it all becomes about them. There are a LOT of moderated bicycling forums. Just do a search and see if you like them better than here. It gets really tiresome explaining to people over and over why American bottom brackets are reverse threaded.
>
> That's when you'd see the inevitable suggestion to "Read the FAQ".
> Is there still a Frequently asked Questions somewhere? (cue Jeff L.'s
> search skills)
>
> pH
>

I refer to items archived in our FAQ regularly:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part1/

[Sir Ridesalot]

Check out the other rec.bicycles newsgroups and you'll see that most of them are just spam nowadays. Darn little bicycling related content in most of them.

Cheers

[Roger Meriman]

Similar across other subjects as well.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Subject drift is normal isn't it? Or perhaps people don't have minds to think with. If you're in danger of theft from your account on Paypal which you use to pay for your Ebay bicycle parts shouldn't you know it? If the vaccines that most people took endanger them, shouldn't they know? Or perhaps like my younger brother he doesn't WANT to know that they screwed up and what to look out for?

Technically we probably shouldn't be talking about the Giro either. So that is another outlawed topic?

I think that we ought to let people talk about what they want to and then upbraid them if the subject is beneath contempt like Krygowski's anti-Constitutional gun crap. That is the fun part. It gives me something to laugh about on the harder rides.

[Tom Kunich]

I just did another 32 miles and 1400 feet of climbing This puts me about even with last year with over 50,000 meters of climbing in the last 12 months, I've been using Garmin Edges for about 3 1/2 years and in that time have covered over 800,000 km It just showed a message that I have started stronger this year than last but we'll see.

[Roger Meriman]

Subject drift is rather different to gun or so on threads that go nowhere
as no one is changing their minds just shouting at each other!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Well, on the original subject - I am having a harder and harder time riding this year. I just seem to be tired and working harder than ever and seldom feel good riding unless it's downwind on the flats. Sunday was into the wind for the entire ride. The wind clocked around from morning to afternoon. I worked hard at trying to ride at least cross wind as much as possible.

[Lou Holtman]

Eight hundred thousand kilometer in three and a half years?

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I misread the numbers. It was 500,000 FEET of climbing and 12,500 miles on the Garmin - or 20,000 km and 152,000 meters of climbing. in 3 1/2 years

I used VDO with altimeter built in and logged all of my mileage and climbing. After I "came to" my fiend got me to ride again and since I was riding with him, for perhaps 5 years I was doing 8,000 miles a year After he moved back to Arizona, I dropped to 5 or 4 thousand miles a year. I didn't get my first Garmin until he had gone. And I think that I was recording rides off of the Garmin onto paper and clearing the Garmin information until you told me the correct way to do it. So that is probably an under estimate.

Thanks for catching that.

[Sir Ridesalot]

That's only about 625 kilometres EVERY SINGLE DAY! WOW! Super bicyclist rides again.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Tue, 30 May 2023 17:41:05 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 3:36:43?p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 9:18:10?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 5:56:08?PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> > > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 10:46:37?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> > > > Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>> > I just did another 32 miles and 1400 feet of climbing This puts me about rven with last year with over 50,000 meters of climbing in the last 12 months, I've been using Garmin Edges for about 3 1/2 years and in that time have covered over 800,000 km It just showed a message that I have started stronger this year than last but we'll see.

>> Eight hundred thousand kilometer in three and a half years?
>>
>> Lou
>
>That's only about 625 kilometres EVERY SINGLE DAY! WOW! Super bicyclist rides again.
>
>Cheers

Ah but that is only 389 miles a day. Why, nothing to it, it's only 16
mph :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:49:00 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with black kit.
> Let them have their choice.
>
> I'm irked by people who claim riding a bike is dangerous unless done in
> garishly colored faux team kit - AKA "full mating plumage."
>

I don't hold "dangerous unless", but I do feel it's safer to be wearing more visible clothing than all black. Most of my clothing is old team kit from the three I rode for, I have a closet full of the stuff.

[Frank Krygowski]

Whether bright colored jerseys and shorts are safer, and how much safer,
depends on lighting conditions and surroundings. I'm not convinced the
difference significantly reduces crash risk for typical riders. I think
most riders would get far more visibility improvement by riding two feet
farther from the road's edge.

But in various forums and discussions, I've come across implications
that one is foolish to ride without "safer" bright clothing. (Please
note, I'm not accusing you of that.)

I've come across the same sorts of claims for riding without foam hats,
riding outside a "protected" bike lane, riding without a mirror, riding
on roads, riding without daytime running lights, riding without disc
brakes, riding without special shoes... It seems bicycling is a magnet
for such claims, as if it's such a hazardous activity that one must do
everything physically possible to reduce risk.

All those claims are questionable at best, based on available data; and
they pretty much preclude just jumping on a bike to buy a loaf of bread.
I think the warnings are bad for cycling and society.

Bicycling is _not_ very dangerous. It does us no good to pretend it is.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 11:25:30 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/31/2023 10:42 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:49:00 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with black kit.
> >> Let them have their choice.
> >>
> >> I'm irked by people who claim riding a bike is dangerous unless done in
> >> garishly colored faux team kit - AKA "full mating plumage."
> >>
> >
> > I don't hold "dangerous unless", but I do feel it's safer to be wearing more visible clothing than all black. Most of my clothing is old team kit from the three I rode for, I have a closet full of the stuff.

> Whether bright colored jerseys and shorts are safer, and how much safer,
> depends on lighting conditions and surroundings. I'm not convinced the
> difference significantly reduces crash risk for typical riders.

I have no data to support it. I just feel better about it.

I think
> most riders would get far more visibility improvement by riding two feet
> farther from the road's edge.
>
> But in various forums and discussions, I've come across implications
> that one is foolish to ride without "safer" bright clothing. (Please
> note, I'm not accusing you of that.)

I wouldn't consider it foolish to ride without bright clothing.

>
> I've come across the same sorts of claims for riding without foam hats,
> riding outside a "protected" bike lane, riding without a mirror, riding
> on roads, riding without daytime running lights, riding without disc
> brakes, riding without special shoes... It seems bicycling is a magnet
> for such claims, as if it's such a hazardous activity that one must do
> everything physically possible to reduce risk.
>
> All those claims are questionable at best, based on available data; and
> they pretty much preclude just jumping on a bike to buy a loaf of bread.
> I think the warnings are bad for cycling and society.
>
> Bicycling is _not_ very dangerous. It does us no good to pretend it is.

Not when done correctly.

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 5/31/2023 10:42 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:49:00 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/25/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am continuously irked by people riding on the roads with black kit.
>>> Let them have their choice.
>>>
>>> I'm irked by people who claim riding a bike is dangerous unless done in
>>> garishly colored faux team kit - AKA "full mating plumage."
>>>
>>
>> I don't hold "dangerous unless", but I do feel it's safer to be wearing
>> more visible clothing than all black. Most of my clothing is old team
>> kit from the three I rode for, I have a closet full of the stuff.
>
> Whether bright colored jerseys and shorts are safer, and how much safer,
> depends on lighting conditions and surroundings. I'm not convinced the
> difference significantly reduces crash risk for typical riders. I think
> most riders would get far more visibility improvement by riding two feet
> farther from the road's edge.

Not convinced road position is any safer, it’s more pleasant as cars etc
can’t just squeeze past without moving off line and so the chance of close
pass is greater but being harmed rather than disturbed?

Same goes for hi vis and so on. Most cyclists even if it’s all black gear
it has reflective this and that.

To the best of my knowledge it’s junctions that are the risk areas not the
road as such, certainly in london it’s often heavy goods vehicles turning,
that causes death not the car that’s close passed you.

>
> But in various forums and discussions, I've come across implications
> that one is foolish to ride without "safer" bright clothing. (Please
> note, I'm not accusing you of that.)
>
> I've come across the same sorts of claims for riding without foam hats,
> riding outside a "protected" bike lane, riding without a mirror, riding
> on roads, riding without daytime running lights, riding without disc
> brakes, riding without special shoes... It seems bicycling is a magnet
> for such claims, as if it's such a hazardous activity that one must do
> everything physically possible to reduce risk.
>
> All those claims are questionable at best, based on available data; and
> they pretty much preclude just jumping on a bike to buy a loaf of bread.
> I think the warnings are bad for cycling and society.
>
> Bicycling is _not_ very dangerous. It does us no good to pretend it is.
>

Indeed it isn’t though some areas are into dangerous sports see DH racing
but yes it’s largely safe.

This said it’s more about a more pleasant experience. My commute I use a
old cycleway which runs for miles and bypasses number of junctions etc plus
parks and what not.

As the direct route though slightly quicker is much more hassle ie busy
roads and junctions and quite frankly on the slow commute bike isn’t
terribly pleasant, I occasionally zip along on the Gravel bike and it’s
fine at those speeds etc.

But it’s just hassle I can do without, plus I like going though green
spaces the “slow” route I can largely switch off and enjoy it.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Well Frank is perfectly welcome to wear anything he likes. If it were to more rapidly lead to his demise all to prove my point. But remember - this is the man who doesn't move over for traffic either so how would we tell?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/1/2023 5:42 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>> I think
>> most riders would get far more visibility improvement by riding two feet
>> farther from the road's edge.
>

> Not convinced road position is any safer ...

>
> To the best of my knowledge it’s junctions that are the risk areas not the
> road as such, certainly in london it’s often heavy goods vehicles turning,
> that causes death not the car that’s close passed you.

I've read a lot about the HGV turning hazard in London. It's direct
proof that some road positions are safer than others. The position at
the side of a large truck that may turn is notorious for cyclist deaths.

I've read that the majority of those deaths (left hooks in London,
they'd be right hooks in the U.S.) have happened to women. There's been
speculation why that is. One common thought is women more than men have
a desire to be polite, to not delay the truck driver by being in front
of him. And they pay for their courtesy with their lives.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/1/2023 10:51 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Well Frank is perfectly welcome to wear anything he likes. If it were to more rapidly lead to his demise all to prove my point.

Tom, I've been riding avidly as an adult, for transportation and for
recreation, for over 50 years. It's far too late for a "rapid demise."

> But remember - this is the man who doesn't move over for traffic either so how would we tell?

So, are you a gutter bunny? Sounds like!

What do you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up behind you in a ten foot
lane with no shoulder?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 6/1/2023 5:42 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> I think
>>> most riders would get far more visibility improvement by riding two feet
>>> farther from the road's edge.
>>
>> Not convinced road position is any safer ...
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge it’s junctions that are the risk areas not the
>> road as such, certainly in london it’s often heavy goods vehicles turning,
>> that causes death not the car that’s close passed you.
>
> I've read a lot about the HGV turning hazard in London. It's direct
> proof that some road positions are safer than others. The position at
> the side of a large truck that may turn is notorious for cyclist deaths.

It’s not really road position as such, as it happens almost with out fail
at junctions and these lorries are in a rush in heavily congested busy
urban areas ie construction traffic lots of pedestrians/cyclists and
everything else.

Ie a large vehicle with huge blind spots turning ie unable to see huge
areas around it? In streets full of pedestrians cyclists and so on? The
construction industry need to do better or they will get banned or need
sight man etc. not viable really.

>
> I've read that the majority of those deaths (left hooks in London,
> they'd be right hooks in the U.S.) have happened to women. There's been
> speculation why that is. One common thought is women more than men have
> a desire to be polite, to not delay the truck driver by being in front
> of him. And they pay for their courtesy with their lives.
>

Maybe I’ve also heard that but the deaths in london are very low ie single
figures the first death of 2023 was just a week or so, and male.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/1/2023 1:59 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 6/1/2023 5:42 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> I think
>>>> most riders would get far more visibility improvement by riding two feet
>>>> farther from the road's edge.
>>>
>>> Not convinced road position is any safer ...
>>>
>>> To the best of my knowledge it’s junctions that are the risk areas not the
>>> road as such, certainly in london it’s often heavy goods vehicles turning,
>>> that causes death not the car that’s close passed you.
>>
>> I've read a lot about the HGV turning hazard in London. It's direct
>> proof that some road positions are safer than others. The position at
>> the side of a large truck that may turn is notorious for cyclist deaths.
>
> It’s not really road position as such, as it happens almost with out fail
> at junctions and these lorries are in a rush in heavily congested busy
> urban areas ie construction traffic lots of pedestrians/cyclists and
> everything else.

In other forums, when someone has mentioned staying out of a trucker's
blind spot, some people have said "Stop blaming the victim! It's the
trucker's fault!"

Sure, truckers should be careful. But some of the fatalities have been
cyclists riding up into the curbside blind spots to try to pass turning
trucks. A foolish cyclist can defeat any reasonable tech solution to
this problem.

Calling for more driver care, truck side shields, more mirrors, video
cameras etc. is all well and good. But at the present time in the real
world, bicyclists should avoid being alongside any vehicle which can
turn across their path; especially large vehicles with known blind
spots. And lots of people don't know that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

In areas like central london which are very busy, and will have folks
crossing the road, bikes/mopeds/scooters etc. having a vehicle that it’s
impossible to be sure it’s clear when manoeuvring is a daft idea and very
little excuse for it.

Note also that these deaths with lorries all happen central london so
fairly small area. It is solvable be that lorries with various sensors or
having to have a set route maybe or delivery out of rush hour and so on.

While you get lorries and so on around they are like you driving down the
road so the risk is fairly minimal if not negligible.

Roger Merriman