"N" spokes?
Scott Gordo
raa...@gmail.com
> What brand of spokes have an "N" at the head?
perhaps you are mistaking a "W" ( wheelsmith ) ?
Scott Gordo
Nope. Definitely an N.
Came on a set of mid-range Specialized Alex wheels. Look a lot like
the Neuvation wheels from a few seasons ago(hmm...), but I think I can
recall seeing "N" spokes long before Neuvation came to my attention.
Tosspot
> beam for more information.
Fool! 'N' is actually a Billinsic 'Z' Learn to read properly.
AMuzi
> What brand of spokes have an "N" at the head?
Taiwan stainless spoke maker, used on some Bianchis.
http://www.biketaiwan.com/2008TBS/tbs/sup_list.asp?type=prdt¶1=C03¶2=Spokes%2FNipples
I'll remember which one some time tomorrow probably.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Scott Gordo
> Scott Gordo wrote:
> > What brand of spokes have an "N" at the head?
>
>
> I'll remember which one some time tomorrow probably.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Thanks Andrew.
Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
Andre Jute
> On May 18, 4:13 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
http://www.biketaiwan.com/2008TBS/tbs/sup_list.asp?type=prdt¶1=C0...
> Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
> you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
The appearance of DTSwiss in the list doesn't necessarily mean they
make their spokes in Taiwan. They might just have their Asian
distribution office in Taiwan.
All the same, I ride on Belgian Sapim spokes made in Belgium and
certified to be made there by an ISO certificate. My spokes are custom-
made for my bicycle (the heads are angled to bring the spoke closer to
the hub flange to avoid stressing it unnaturally), but that's beside
the point: one can trace *any* Sapim spoke, even a common one, to
their own factory, and -- if one were diligent enough -- to a
particular craftsman (small company -- 30 people) and set of machines.
Most of the better European bikes ride on Sapim spokes.
Andre Jute
I'm too poor not to afford the best
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf
RonSonic
>On May 18, 9:53�pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 18, 4:13�pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>http://www.biketaiwan.com/2008TBS/tbs/sup_list.asp?type=prdt�1=C0...
>
>> Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
>> you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
>
>The appearance of DTSwiss in the list doesn't necessarily mean they
>make their spokes in Taiwan. They might just have their Asian
>distribution office in Taiwan.
>
>All the same, I ride on Belgian Sapim spokes made in Belgium and
>certified to be made there by an ISO certificate. My spokes are custom-
>made for my bicycle (the heads are angled to bring the spoke closer to
>the hub flange to avoid stressing it unnaturally), but that's beside
>the point:
Probably done to address the only known Rohloff hub failure mode. Or at least
the only one I've seen reported anywhere.
phs...@gmail.com
> Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
> you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
Not the regular DT Swiss spokes and hubs, they will still be made in
Switzerland (using steel from SMT Sandvik from Sweden)
http://www.bike-eu.com/news/1437/dt-swiss-goes-to-asia.html
--
Regards
landotter
Low to mid range Kona spokes have a Z stamped on them, albeit in a
circle. The spokes are made with Sandvik steel, probably in Taiwan. To
their credit, Kona uses heavier gauge spokes on the rear wheels, even
on the cheapest models. I've rebuilt a set on to equally cheapy D18s.
Never broken one. Just fine, IMHO.
My Redline's got S marked spokes. You bet they ain't Sapims. Managed
to bust one last year. Gotta love 36h hubs. Just opened the QR and
kept riding.
datakoll
WHAT DOES tbs STAND FOR ?
AND WHAT ABOUT THE 3 PINE TREES ?
We had N's here and &^&*HHH do they suck.
Andre Jute
Specifically done to address the only known Rohloff hub failure mode.
It's ironic that it happens on the Rohloff hub drilled to take bigger
diameter spokes to meet the heavier demands of tandem use...
I was amazed to discover that Mark Beaumont, about whom I wrote the
other day, didn't specify Sapim spokes on his circumnavigation bike.
He paid the price almost before he was out of Paris, with two broken
spokes. But reading on his site it seems to me rather likely that he
is more interested in getting his body in shape, leaving the bike to
suppliers. That's careless to the point of recklessness when you're
trying for a record that tight. One also has to wonder what the devil
Koga-Miyata thought they were doing, letting a circumnavigator go out
on anything but proven spokes.
Andre Jute
20-20 hindsight
phs...@gmail.com
> My Redline's got S marked spokes. You bet they ain't Sapims. Managed
> to bust one last year. Gotta love 36h hubs. Just opened the QR and
> kept riding.
The Sapim spokes I have seen have been marked with "SAP" on the spoke
elbow. AFAIK, the "SAP" marking is made when they swage the spokes so
as not to produce a stress riser as strong as if they had just stamped
the marking.
--
Regards
AMuzi
> What brand of spokes have an "N" at the head?
Sky Yaeger, who is both smart and has lost fewer brain cells
than mnay of us, says it's Chuang Nan.
Andre Jute
> The Sapim spokes I have seen have been marked with "SAP" on the spoke
> elbow. AFAIK, the "SAP" marking is made when they swage the spokes so
> as not to produce a stress riser as strong as if they had just stamped
> the marking.
>
> --
> Regards
S
A
P
I
M
full out in caps, just below the elbow. Could be the current version
on all their spokes, could be only on the special custom spokes for my
wheels.
Andre Jute
Brands of destiny
Jay Beattie
> On May 18, 9:53 pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 18, 4:13 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> http://www.biketaiwan.com/2008TBS/tbs/sup_list.asp?type=prdt¶1=C0...
>
> > Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
> > you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
>
> The appearance of DTSwiss in the list doesn't necessarily mean they
> make their spokes in Taiwan. They might just have their Asian
> distribution office in Taiwan.
>
> All the same, I ride on Belgian Sapim spokes made in Belgium and
> certified to be made there by an ISO certificate. My spokes are custom-
> made for my bicycle (the heads are angled to bring the spoke closer to
> the hub flange to avoid stressing it unnaturally), but that's beside
> the point: one can trace *any* Sapim spoke, even a common one, to
> their own factory, and -- if one were diligent enough -- to a
> particular craftsman (small company -- 30 people) and set of machines.
> Most of the better European bikes ride on Sapim spokes.
>
>
Taiwan? I have a Dutch friend who thinks the Belgians are a bunch of
slackers only good for making beer and chocolate. I don't recall
whether she differentiated between Flemmings and Walloons, but I'll
ask her the next time we talk. -- Jay Beattie.
Andre Jute
> On May 18, 2:17 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 18, 9:53 pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 18, 4:13 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >http://www.biketaiwan.com/2008TBS/tbs/sup_list.asp?type=prdt¶1=C0...
>
> > > Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
> > > you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
>
> > The appearance of DTSwiss in the list doesn't necessarily mean they
> > make their spokes in Taiwan. They might just have their Asian
> > distribution office in Taiwan.
>
> > All the same, I ride on Belgian Sapim spokes made in Belgium and
> > certified to be made there by an ISO certificate. My spokes are custom-
> > made for my bicycle (the heads are angled to bring the spoke closer to
> > the hub flange to avoid stressing it unnaturally), but that's beside
> > the point: one can trace *any* Sapim spoke, even a common one, to
> > their own factory, and -- if one were diligent enough -- to a
> > particular craftsman (small company -- 30 people) and set of machines.
> > Most of the better European bikes ride on Sapim spokes.
>
> But is being made in Belgium a good thing -- better than being made in
> Taiwan?
Sure it is, for spokes. I don't see those Taiwanese spokes on the
better European bikes. Sapim of Belgium is the spoke-maker by
appointment to the price-no-object bikemakers, and to the guys who'll
sacrifice something else for guaranteed longevity, like the world
circumnavigators.
>I have a Dutch friend who thinks the Belgians are a bunch of
> slackers only good for making beer and chocolate.
Is she one of those Dutch women who sit around all day drinking
Belgian beer and eating Belgian chocolate? The Belgians have a nice
line in sleight of hand convincing the Dutch to sit around bitching
about how slack the Belgians are, all the while consuming Belgian
exports.
>I don't recall
> whether she differentiated between Flemmings and Walloons, but I'll
> ask her the next time we talk. -- Jay Beattie.
Several posters to RBT can tell you her stereotype about them. More
interestingly, what does she think of guntotin' Southern rednecks v
damp Portland sophisticates?
Andre Jute
Cosmopolitan
Tom_Sherman
I thought "RonSonic" was in Jute's kill-file. :)
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
Tom_Sherman
> [...]
> But is being made in Belgium [...]
What is with the excessive obscenity?
RonSonic
Sapim makes fine spokes, no doubt. I have a wheelset full of them that is
insanely strong, light and true. But I don't doubt they get used in high-end
wheels as a matter of convenience for the assemblers and the makers of the other
parts as well. For something like your Rohloff specific spokes, it's a simpler
matter to send a hub round to get fitted.
They're in a nice neighborhood to find high-quality clients. I don't doubt that
US or Taiwanese spoke mongers will build as good a spoke when asked for it.
But, we are ignoring the real question: are they MAGNETIC?
datakoll
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=2459
Andre Jute
Nah, magnetism will have to come second to the really important
question:
Do Sapim spokes have to be so butt-ugly? Seriously, every other good
spoke has a smoother gradient to the thickening. Makes one wonder if
there is a technical reason for the Sapim "bulb".
Andre Jute
Aesthete
M-gineering
>>
> But is being made in Belgium a good thing -- better than being made in
> Taiwan? I have a Dutch friend who thinks the Belgians are a bunch of
> slackers only good for making beer and chocolate. I don't recall
> whether she differentiated between Flemmings and Walloons, but I'll
> ask her the next time we talk. -- Jay Beattie.
When pressed many Belgians will freely admit that Belgium is the first
african republic in Europe ;) Sapim spokes are OK though, but the
ordering proces is interesting
--
/Marten
info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
_
> But, we are ignoring the real question: are they MAGNETIC?
"jim beam" says you can get a magnet to stick to them with glue.
And you know he writes his posts based primarily on his 'experience'...
phs...@gmail.com
> Sapim makes fine spokes, no doubt. I have a wheelset full of them that is
> insanely strong, light and true. But I don't doubt they get used in high-end
> wheels as a matter of convenience for the assemblers and the makers of the other
> parts as well. For something like your Rohloff specific spokes, it's a simpler
> matter to send a hub round to get fitted.
Sapim buys their drawn spoke wire coils at SMT Sandvik, the same place
that DT Swiss buys. Of course, SMT Sandvik makes a lot of different
grades of spoke wire, but AFAIK both manufacturers buys somewhat equal
quality spoke wires, and produces their standard spokes the same way
by swaging them etc. So for all practical purposes their standard
spokes are of identical high quality. Sapim however made one spoke
type; the CX-Ray, that for several years was the strongest, lightest
and most aerodynamic spoke available. So many high end wheel makers
like Zipp used Sapim CX-Rays for their wheels, many Pro Teams
allegedly relaced their sponsor wheels with Sapim CX-Rays, since many
other bladed spokes wasn't so aerodynamic as they appeared.
> They're in a nice neighborhood to find high-quality clients. I don't doubt that
> US or Taiwanese spoke mongers will build as good a spoke when asked for it.
Making spokes is the easy part, even a small company like Sapim can do
that, the problem is having a source of high quality steel spoke wire
from a manufacturer that has good continually quality control.
--
Regards
jim beam
> On 19 Maj, 03:43, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Sapim makes fine spokes, no doubt. I have a wheelset full of them that is
>> insanely strong, light and true. But I don't doubt they get used in high-end
>> wheels as a matter of convenience for the assemblers and the makers of the other
>> parts as well. For something like your Rohloff specific spokes, it's a simpler
>> matter to send a hub round to get fitted.
>
> Sapim buys their drawn spoke wire coils at SMT Sandvik, the same place
> that DT Swiss buys. Of course, SMT Sandvik makes a lot of different
> grades of spoke wire, but AFAIK both manufacturers buys somewhat equal
> quality spoke wires, and produces their standard spokes the same way
> by swaging them etc.
nope, that's very wrong. swaging is a hammering process, and that is
indeed what d.t. do, but sapim draw theirs in a die, and that is NOT
swaging. if you want to use a generic term, both manufacturers "butt",
and that covers /all/ the spoke thinning techniques.
this is the problem with jobst brandt's pissing in the knowledge pool -
he makes a huge mistake, even publishing books with that mistake because
his ego won't allow proper peer review, then others repeat that mistake
because they know no better.
jim beam
make that three things - guns. they're /very/ good at making guns.
RonSonic
>phs...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 19 Maj, 03:43, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sapim makes fine spokes, no doubt. I have a wheelset full of them that is
>>> insanely strong, light and true. But I don't doubt they get used in high-end
>>> wheels as a matter of convenience for the assemblers and the makers of the other
>>> parts as well. For something like your Rohloff specific spokes, it's a simpler
>>> matter to send a hub round to get fitted.
>>
>> Sapim buys their drawn spoke wire coils at SMT Sandvik, the same place
>> that DT Swiss buys. Of course, SMT Sandvik makes a lot of different
>> grades of spoke wire, but AFAIK both manufacturers buys somewhat equal
>> quality spoke wires, and produces their standard spokes the same way
>> by swaging them etc.
>
>nope, that's very wrong. swaging is a hammering process, and that is
>indeed what d.t. do, but sapim draw theirs in a die, and that is NOT
>swaging. if you want to use a generic term, both manufacturers "butt",
>and that covers /all/ the spoke thinning techniques.
How ever do you draw a spoke head? Start with wire the diameter of the head and
draw down to the main length? I don't think so jim. Or, as seems more likely,
both make the heads by swaging, and you just want to find something to piss
about.
"... and produces their standard spokes the same way by swaging them etc." seems
as precise and true as could possibly be.
Not all spokes are butted. Not even "most." Very nearly all spokes have heads.
And even now in the 21st Century anything called "standard spokes" will have a
head that will no doubt have been swaged.
>this is the problem with jobst brandt's pissing in the knowledge pool -
>he makes a huge mistake, even publishing books with that mistake because
>his ego won't allow proper peer review, then others repeat that mistake
>because they know no better.
>
>> So for all practical purposes their standard
>> spokes are of identical high quality. Sapim however made one spoke
>> type; the CX-Ray, that for several years was the strongest, lightest
>> and most aerodynamic spoke available. So many high end wheel makers
>> like Zipp used Sapim CX-Rays for their wheels, many Pro Teams
>> allegedly relaced their sponsor wheels with Sapim CX-Rays, since many
>> other bladed spokes wasn't so aerodynamic as they appeared.
>>
>>> They're in a nice neighborhood to find high-quality clients. I don't doubt that
>>> US or Taiwanese spoke mongers will build as good a spoke when asked for it.
>>
>> Making spokes is the easy part, even a small company like Sapim can do
>> that, the problem is having a source of high quality steel spoke wire
>> from a manufacturer that has good continually quality control.
That is true. I know musical instrument string manufacturers, they've got very
similar problems.
RonSonic
>Jay Beattie wrote:
>> On May 18, 2:17?pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On May 18, 9:53?pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On May 18, 4:13?pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> http://www.biketaiwan.com/2008TBS/tbs/sup_list.asp?type=prdt?1=C0...
>>>
>>>> Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
>>>> you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
>>> The appearance of DTSwiss in the list doesn't necessarily mean they
>>> make their spokes in Taiwan. They might just have their Asian
>>> distribution office in Taiwan.
>>>
>>> All the same, I ride on Belgian Sapim spokes made in Belgium and
>>> certified to be made there by an ISO certificate. My spokes are custom-
>>> made for my bicycle (the heads are angled to bring the spoke closer to
>>> the hub flange to avoid stressing it unnaturally), but that's beside
>>> the point: one can trace *any* Sapim spoke, even a common one, to
>>> their own factory, and -- if one were diligent enough -- to a
>>> particular craftsman (small company -- 30 people) and set of machines.
>>> Most of the better European bikes ride on Sapim spokes.
>>>
>>>
>> But is being made in Belgium a good thing -- better than being made in
>> Taiwan? I have a Dutch friend who thinks the Belgians are a bunch of
>> slackers only good for making beer and chocolate.
>
>make that three things - guns. they're /very/ good at making guns.
Especially when they can get an American to do the design work.
I'm a big fan of Mormon John and his work.
TomYoung
> Scott Gordo wrote:
> > What brand of spokes have an "N" at the head?
>
> Sky Yaeger, who is both smart and has lost fewer brain cells
> than mnay of us, says it's Chuang Nan.
Clicking their hyperlink from the list of spoke/nipple makers and
enlarging their ad suggests their spoke marking is a lower-case "h"
and "m" smooshed together.
Tom Young
Jay Beattie
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > On May 18, 2:17 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On May 18, 9:53 pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On May 18, 4:13 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >>> Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
> >>> you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
> >> The appearance of DTSwiss in the list doesn't necessarily mean they
> >> make their spokes in Taiwan. They might just have their Asian
> >> distribution office in Taiwan.
>
> >> All the same, I ride on Belgian Sapim spokes made in Belgium and
> >> certified to be made there by an ISO certificate. My spokes are custom-
> >> made for my bicycle (the heads are angled to bring the spoke closer to
> >> the hub flange to avoid stressing it unnaturally), but that's beside
> >> the point: one can trace *any* Sapim spoke, even a common one, to
> >> their own factory, and -- if one were diligent enough -- to a
> >> particular craftsman (small company -- 30 people) and set of machines.
> >> Most of the better European bikes ride on Sapim spokes.
>
> > But is being made in Belgium a good thing -- better than being made in
> > Taiwan? I have a Dutch friend who thinks the Belgians are a bunch of
> > slackers only good for making beer and chocolate.
>
> make that three things - guns. they're /very/ good at making guns.
>
I forgot about that. Then they should be good at making steel goods.
The point (if there were one) of my post is that are old prejudices
may not be accurate, particularly when it comes to goods made in
Taiwan. It is also interesting to hear how people from one country
(not the US) regard the citizens of other countries. We're so
politically correct here, and other countries are not so much -- at
least basedon my experience. -- Jay Beattie.
phs...@gmail.com
> nope, that's very wrong. swaging is a hammering process, and that is
> indeed what d.t. do, but sapim draw theirs in a die, and that is NOT
> swaging. if you want to use a generic term, both manufacturers "butt",
> and that covers /all/ the spoke thinning techniques.
I believe that it is you that are wrong regarding how Sapim produces
their double butted/swaged spokes. Anyway, I was specifically talking
about the process of swaging, not how the spokes look like.
Sapim buy spoke wire from SMT Sandvik in big coils. This wire is
indeed drawn:
http://www.smt.sandvik.com/sandvik/0140/Internet/se02776.nsf/0/c61c109bda397ab0c1256bd500320c02!OpenDocument&TableRow=4.2.1#4.2.
However, AFAIK, Sapim makes their double butted/swaged spokes by a
rotary swaging process. The SAP (now SAPIM) marking impressed into the
spoke near the spoke head, would act as a nasty stress riser if it was
just stamped into the spoke. Making the impression while swaging the
spoke should allegedly reduce the risk of stress crack originating
from the marking.
Menze, CWC, DT Swiss, Buchanan spokes, Delta spokes all says they make
double butted/swaged spokes by a swaging process. Other manufacturers
like Wheelsmith uses the term "forging" which must mean swaging, not
drawing:
"Wheelsmith’s double-butted spokes are extremely light. The center
sections are forged rather than cut, ground, or drawn to smaller
diameter, giving them greater strength and uniformity."
http://www.wheelsmith.com/spokes_introduction.html
So when cnSPOKES and Sapim talks about "cold forging" their double
butted/swaged spokes, they don't mean drawing wire, but swaging. I
have yet to see one manufacturer of double butted/swaged spokes
directly saying that they do so by drawing wire.
> this is the problem with jobst brandt's pissing in the knowledge pool -
> he makes a huge mistake, even publishing books with that mistake because
> his ego won't allow proper peer review, then others repeat that mistake
> because they know no better.
My information regarding Sapim spokes doesn't stem from Mr. Brandt,
but from a co-owner of a bicycle store chain and a bicycle brand.
--
Regards
Andre Jute
wrote:
I persuaded a small round magnet (for an HRM/bike computer) to stick
to my Sapim stainless steel spokes without using any glue at all. I
used the bolt that came in the pack. No 'experience' was required, and
just enough brains to select the right shape and size of screwdriver
bit.
Andre Jute
Hello! Dr de Bono? We have a tunnel-vision "expert" who needs help.
Andre Jute
in a die:
It seems possible that Sapim finds the strength of their spokes by
starting with thicker wire and drawing the whole thing, including the
head, in a die. Unfortunately their proprietary process hides behind
pretty uninformative words:
"...manufacture is based on the SCFT-system (Sapim advanced Cold
Forging Technology)."
http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=facts
That could be anything: drawing in a die, swaging (a hammering
process), even bashing on an anvil if we want to imagine a cottage
industry.
But elsewhere they tell us that:
"SAPIM draws wire in such way that no change in molecular material
structure occurs."
They go on to explain the advantage of "drawing", which, with the
knowledge that most spokes break near the head in the neck, could
account for the longevity of the Sapim spokes:
"The spoke does not twist much when it is built into a wheel."
http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=checklist&taal=uk
HTH.
Andre Jute
Not everything in materials is dreamt of in Timoshenko
Andre Jute
Your experience is biased by your sample. The Dutch are outspoken to
the point where they are known as the rudest people in the world
(well, often with the qualification, "next to American tourists"). But
their next door neighbours the Germans are so consumed with amorphous
guilt that the slightest political incorrectness unbalances them.
Despite all this, the Dutch and the Germans are my favourite people,
for always doing precisely what they promise. Belgians are nowhere
near as reliable, secondclass Dutchmen with far too much deleterious
French influence. Tell your friend I refined her vague distrust to
cause and effect. (And watch the little RBT fashion victims fall over
themselves to accuse me of racism.) -- A J Cosmo
phs...@gmail.com
> It seems possible that Sapim finds the strength of their spokes by
> starting with thicker wire and drawing the whole thing, including the
> head, in a die.
Possible, but unlikely. The Sandvik spoke wire is already drawn when
Sapim gets it. It is also unlikely, that even if such a second drawing
could give additional strength, that Sapim could do it cheaper and
better than Sandvik can.
>Unfortunately their proprietary process hides behind
> pretty uninformative words:
> "...manufacture is based on the SCFT-system (Sapim advanced Cold
> Forging Technology)."
> http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=facts
> That could be anything: drawing in a die, swaging (a hammering
> process), even bashing on an anvil if we want to imagine a cottage
> industry.
Every spoke manufacturer I have seen uses cold forging= swaging.
> But elsewhere they tell us that:
> "SAPIM draws wire in such way that no change in molecular material
> structure occurs."
> They go on to explain the advantage of "drawing", which, with the
> knowledge that most spokes break near the head in the neck, could
> account for the longevity of the Sapim spokes:
> "The spoke does not twist much when it is built into a wheel."
> http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=checklist&taal=uk
That the FAQ section refers to drawing wire are much more likely to do
with translating errors/ less than optimal command of English, and a
mix-up with the fact that their spoke wire is already drawn for
additional strength and that spoke "stretch" when swaged: "If spokes
are used which are too long, new threads in the nipple will be made."
Such a sentence may be grammatically correct English, but to me it
sounds like a non-English syntax is hiding behind the words.
The following "The spoke does not twist much when it is built into a
wheel." seems almost weird and out of place. That drawing spokes into
db-spokes instead of swaging them should reduce the amount of
torsional spoke twist seems unlikely to to me.
I have no problem finding spoke producers that says they swage their
db-spokes, or who says that they grind them (center reduce) into
shape, but no-one that says they are using wire drawing to do so. Wire
drawing to get db-spokes doesn't seem to be normal practise, maybe
because drawing isn't cheaper than grinding, nor better than swaging
since the spoke wire is already drawn when the spoke manufacturer gets
it.
--
Regards
Michael Press
Tom_Sherman <sunsetss000...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On May 18, 10:26 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> [...]
>
> I thought "RonSonic" was in Jute's kill-file. :)
Do you know, or only think so? :)
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<91239986-5947-4df7...@y10g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
Jay Beattie <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
The chocolate travels well enough. It is excellent.
I have not been there to drink the beer.
--
Michael Press
mike
c585cc...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, fiul...@yahoo.com says...
>
> But elsewhere they tell us that:
> "SAPIM draws wire in such way that no change in molecular material
> structure occurs."
Sounds like pseudo-science to me - even with any munging that may have
occured during translation to English.
Mike
jim beam
> On Tue, 19 May 2009 05:50:52 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> phs...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On 19 Maj, 03:43, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sapim makes fine spokes, no doubt. I have a wheelset full of them that is
>>>> insanely strong, light and true. But I don't doubt they get used in high-end
>>>> wheels as a matter of convenience for the assemblers and the makers of the other
>>>> parts as well. For something like your Rohloff specific spokes, it's a simpler
>>>> matter to send a hub round to get fitted.
>>> Sapim buys their drawn spoke wire coils at SMT Sandvik, the same place
>>> that DT Swiss buys. Of course, SMT Sandvik makes a lot of different
>>> grades of spoke wire, but AFAIK both manufacturers buys somewhat equal
>>> quality spoke wires, and produces their standard spokes the same way
>>> by swaging them etc.
>> nope, that's very wrong. swaging is a hammering process, and that is
>> indeed what d.t. do, but sapim draw theirs in a die, and that is NOT
>> swaging. if you want to use a generic term, both manufacturers "butt",
>> and that covers /all/ the spoke thinning techniques.
>
> How ever do you draw a spoke head? Start with wire the diameter of the head and
> draw down to the main length? I don't think so jim. Or, as seems more likely,
> both make the heads by swaging, and you just want to find something to piss
> about.
just suspend your knee-jerking for a moment ron and imagine that just
for once, someone is not blowing smoke up your kilt.
the head forming process is called "upsetting", not swaging.
>
> "... and produces their standard spokes the same way by swaging them etc." seems
> as precise and true as could possibly be.
>
> Not all spokes are butted. Not even "most." Very nearly all spokes have heads.
> And even now in the 21st Century anything called "standard spokes" will have a
> head that will no doubt have been swaged.
nope. see above.
and straight gauge spokes are not butted, but they /can/ be swaged.
"swaging" is absolutely the /WRONG/ technical word to use to use for
butting because it is a specific mechanical process, not a generic term
for resulting product.
jim beam
> On 19 Maj, 14:50, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> nope, that's very wrong. �swaging is a hammering process, and that is
>> indeed what d.t. do, but sapim draw theirs in a die, and that is NOT
>> swaging. �if you want to use a generic term, both manufacturers "butt",
>> and that covers /all/ the spoke thinning techniques.
>
> I believe that it is you that are wrong regarding how Sapim produces
> their double butted/swaged spokes.
butted, not swaged. swaging is a process, not a result.
> Anyway, I was specifically talking
> about the process of swaging, not how the spokes look like.
>
> Sapim buy spoke wire from SMT Sandvik in big coils. This wire is
> indeed drawn:
> http://www.smt.sandvik.com/sandvik/0140/Internet/se02776.nsf/0/c61c109bda397ab0c1256bd500320c02!OpenDocument&TableRow=4.2.1#4.2.
>
> However, AFAIK, Sapim makes their double butted/swaged spokes by a
> rotary swaging process.
sapim use a drawing die. if you own any sapim spokes, invest in a
decent magnifier and you'll see the drawing marks clearly on the butted
section, particularly at the beginning and ends.
> The SAP (now SAPIM) marking impressed into the
> spoke near the spoke head, would act as a nasty stress riser if it was
> just stamped into the spoke.
but it /is/ stamped into the spoke. as for stress riser, you need to
examine the impression profile carefully. and consider the loading profile.
> Making the impression while swaging the
> spoke should allegedly reduce the risk of stress crack originating
> from the marking.
that dude, is underinformed suppositional bullshit.
>
> Menze, CWC, DT Swiss, Buchanan spokes, Delta spokes all says they make
> double butted/swaged spokes by a swaging process.
dt do. alpina do. i don't know about the others, but if you send me
samples, i'll confirm for you.
> Other manufacturers
> like Wheelsmith uses the term "forging" which must mean swaging, not
> drawing:
> "Wheelsmith�s double-butted spokes are extremely light. The center
> sections are forged rather than cut, ground, or drawn to smaller
> diameter, giving them greater strength and uniformity."
> http://www.wheelsmith.com/spokes_introduction.html
that is not borne out by any wheelsmith spoke i've inspected - there is
no evidence of "forging".
>
> So when cnSPOKES and Sapim talks about "cold forging" their double
> butted/swaged spokes, they don't mean drawing wire, but swaging.
no. yet again, swaging is a specific process, not a generic result.
there is a precise word for it thugh, and that word is "butted".
> I
> have yet to see one manufacturer of double butted/swaged spokes
> directly saying that they do so by drawing wire.
why would they??? to anyone that knows what they're doing, the
manufacturing method is obvious!
>
>> this is the problem with jobst brandt's pissing in the knowledge pool -
>> he makes a huge mistake, even publishing books with that mistake because
>> his ego won't allow proper peer review, then others repeat that mistake
>> because they know no better.
>
> My information regarding Sapim spokes doesn't stem from Mr. Brandt,
> but from a co-owner of a bicycle store chain and a bicycle brand.
ah, a metallurgical/production processing expert - he must be right
then. i take back all i said.
jim beam
just because it doesn't agree with what you want it to say or because
you're previously misinformed and that you attribute less credibility to
an actual manufacturer than you do some twerp off the interweb???
> and a
> mix-up with the fact that their spoke wire is already drawn for
> additional strength and that spoke "stretch" when swaged: "If spokes
> are used which are too long, new threads in the nipple will be made."
> Such a sentence may be grammatically correct English, but to me it
> sounds like a non-English syntax is hiding behind the words.
> The following "The spoke does not twist much when it is built into a
> wheel." seems almost weird and out of place. That drawing spokes into
> db-spokes instead of swaging them should reduce the amount of
> torsional spoke twist seems unlikely to to me.
>
> I have no problem finding spoke producers that says they swage their
> db-spokes, or who says that they grind them (center reduce) into
> shape, but no-one that says they are using wire drawing to do so.
again, if you actually bothered to inspect, and knew what you were
looking at, it would be obvious.
> Wire
> drawing to get db-spokes doesn't seem to be normal practise, maybe
> because drawing isn't cheaper than grinding, nor better than swaging
> since the spoke wire is already drawn when the spoke manufacturer gets
> it.
>
> --
> Regards
but that's straight gauge, not butted! you can draw a butted section
too - indeed, tube is drawn to a butted profile all the time, but you
don't get "experts" bleating about "swaging" there uncoincidentally
because the great and mighty jobst brandt has never fucked up by writing
about them and thus been unquestioningly parroted by idiots that know no
better!
jim beam
poor andre - i auto-suggest by implanting the word "superglue" in my
original response, and here we have the pavlovian repetition of the poor
schmuck that's read it and couldn't help himself from being suckered.
tell us andre, how could this happen if you were really killfiling? and
if you're not killfiling, why the ridiculous charade? [rhetorical]
jim beam
of course, the great andre jute knows all. unlike the poor schmuck
metallurgist who, using a simple magnifier, can ascertain facts from
direct inspection.
for andre's next trick, he will flight-check a 747 standing on runway
three at jfk while riding his ridiculous recumbent through tipperary,
"designing" his next stoopid triode distortion energy waster, and giving
the bird to poor unsuspecting motorists with the hand that's not typing
his next romantic novelette entitled "how i saved civilization" at
500wpm. and drinking tea.
someone
> that is not borne out by any wheelsmith spoke i've inspected - there is
> no evidence of "forging".
what do u term t method 4 producing t spoke head?
someone
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > On May 18, 2:17 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On May 18, 9:53 pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On May 18, 4:13 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >>> Side note: DT Swiss are made in Taiwan, eh? What does it mean when
> >>> you're surprised over and over again by the same fact?
> >> The appearance of DTSwiss in the list doesn't necessarily mean they
> >> make their spokes in Taiwan. They might just have their Asian
> >> distribution office in Taiwan.
>
> >> All the same, I ride on Belgian Sapim spokes made in Belgium and
> >> certified to be made there by an ISO certificate. My spokes are custom-
> >> made for my bicycle (the heads are angled to bring the spoke closer to
> >> the hub flange to avoid stressing it unnaturally), but that's beside
> >> the point: one can trace *any* Sapim spoke, even a common one, to
> >> their own factory, and -- if one were diligent enough -- to a
> >> particular craftsman (small company -- 30 people) and set of machines.
> >> Most of the better European bikes ride on Sapim spokes.
>
> > But is being made in Belgium a good thing -- better than being made in
> > Taiwan? I have a Dutch friend who thinks the Belgians are a bunch of
> > slackers only good for making beer and chocolate.
>
> make that three things - guns. they're /very/ good at making guns.
>
> > I don't recall
> > whether she differentiated between Flemmings and Walloons, but I'll
> > ask her the next time we talk. -- Jay Beattie.
gunmetal or red brass is good 4 what in a bicycle?
someone
Which part of a Dutcman is used in bicycle manufacture? Are a
German's parts better suited for this roll?
phs...@gmail.com
> butted, not swaged. swaging is a process, not a result.
Well, that is your opinion. For actual usage of the word take a look
here:
http://www.buchananspokes.net/categories/custom_spoke_sets.asp
In the "Spoke type" column it says: "Single gauge" for straight
spokes and as opposed of this; "Swaged" for double butted spokes. Or
here:
http://www.bicycle-parts-information.com/glossary
A glossary that describes "Double butted spokes" as : "Swaged spokes.
The spokes are thicker at the ends than in the middle."
Even if Jobst Brandt had created this meaning that a swaged spoke can
both describe the process by which it is made and how it looks, that
meaning now exist in usage in the real world. You can't win this
argument, because even if you are right, then you are wrong. All you
can do now is rant like people ranting about getting 200 million
Americans to pronounce cyber with a "k" like it should, instead of
"s". Correcting the world is a hard and thankless job to undertake.
> sapim use a drawing die. if you own any sapim spokes, invest in a
> decent magnifier and you'll see the drawing marks clearly on the butted
> section, particularly at the beginning and ends.
As I said, it is a well known fact that spoke wire is drawn when
delivered to Sapim.
Why should it be a surprise that the spokes shows such markings?
> > The SAP (now SAPIM) marking impressed into the
> > spoke near the spoke head, would act as a nasty stress riser if it was
> > just stamped into the spoke.
>
> but it /is/ stamped into the spoke. as for stress riser, you need to
> examine the impression profile carefully. and consider the loading profile.
Stamped by a cold forging swaging process instead of just being
stamped after the cold forging. Allegedly this makes a difference.
> > Menze, CWC, DT Swiss, Buchanan spokes, Delta spokes all says they
make
> > double butted/swaged spokes by a swaging process.
>
> dt do. alpina do. i don't know about the others, but if you send me
> samples, i'll confirm for you.
Just look at their home pages, they all say that the swage their db-
spokes.
Here is another one; WWS Drahtspeichen GmbH. They have probably made
spokes for more than 100 years, they also say
"Swaged spokes"
http://www.wws-speichen.de/en/sortiment/
Of course, perhaps this +100 year old firm uses the words "swaged
spokes" when referring to how their db-spokes looks.
> > Other manufacturers
> > like Wheelsmith uses the term "forging" which must mean swaging, not
> > drawing:
> > "Wheelsmith s double-butted spokes are extremely light. The center
> > sections are forged rather than cut, ground, or drawn to smaller
> > diameter, giving them greater strength and uniformity."
> >http://www.wheelsmith.com/spokes_introduction.html
>
> that is not borne out by any wheelsmith spoke i've inspected - there is
> no evidence of "forging".
Well, so Wheelsmith is lying here? A more likely conclusion would be
that your conclusion from your inspection is faulty.
> > I
> > have yet to see one manufacturer of double butted/swaged spokes
> > directly saying that they do so by drawing wire.
>
> why would they??? to anyone that knows what they're doing, the
> manufacturing method is obvious!
They would because when spoke manufacturers talk about how they make
their db-spokes they always say that they do so by swaging. Come on, I
have found more than half a dozen of manufacturers that says they
swage their db-spokes; please find a couple that says they make db-
spokes by drawing them from wire.
That should be easy to do if was such a common manufacturing process.
I have searched in earnest but haven't found anything.
> > My information regarding Sapim spokes doesn't stem from Mr. Brandt,
> > but from a co-owner of a bicycle store chain and a bicycle brand.
>
> ah, a metallurgical/production processing expert - he must be right
> then. i take back all i said.
No he isn't, but he has decades of experience in the bicycle business
dealing with import, manufacturing and part distributers. He surely
knows a thing or two. He might even been at the Sapim factory since
both Sapim and his business sponsored (in a small way) the same Pro
Peleton team.
--
Regards
someone
> WHAT DOES tbs STAND FOR ?
>
> AND WHAT ABOUT THE 3 PINE TREES ?
>
> We had N's here and &^&*HHH do they suck.
to be sure. I am not, I dont see original from which you are quoting.
jim beam
> On 20 Maj, 06:07, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> butted, not swaged. swaging is a process, not a result.
>
> Well, that is your opinion. For actual usage of the word take a look
> here:
> http://www.buchananspokes.net/categories/custom_spoke_sets.asp
>
> In the "Spoke type" column it says: "Single gauge" for straight
> spokes and as opposed of this; "Swaged" for double butted spokes. Or
> here:
> http://www.bicycle-parts-information.com/glossary
> A glossary that describes "Double butted spokes" as : "Swaged spokes.
> The spokes are thicker at the ends than in the middle."
> Even if Jobst Brandt had created this meaning that a swaged spoke can
> both describe the process by which it is made and how it looks, that
> meaning now exist in usage in the real world. You can't win this
> argument, because even if you are right, then you are wrong. All you
> can do now is rant like people ranting about getting 200 million
> Americans to pronounce cyber with a "k" like it should, instead of
> "s". Correcting the world is a hard and thankless job to undertake.
dude, almost every bike "source" is infected with jobst brandt's
giant-ass mistake. but if you dare stray into the world of the
producers - the guys who actually do this stuff and who stayed awake in
class, they laugh their organs off each time some poor bike idiot makes
that mistake.
>
>> sapim use a drawing die. if you own any sapim spokes, invest in a
>> decent magnifier and you'll see the drawing marks clearly on the butted
>> section, particularly at the beginning and ends.
>
> As I said, it is a well known fact that spoke wire is drawn when
> delivered to Sapim.
> Why should it be a surprise that the spokes shows such markings?
because those marks do not survive the butting process if the spoke is
being hammered into shape!!!
>
>>> The SAP (now SAPIM) marking impressed into the
>>> spoke near the spoke head, would act as a nasty stress riser if it was
>>> just stamped into the spoke.
>> but it /is/ stamped into the spoke. as for stress riser, you need to
>> examine the impression profile carefully. and consider the loading profile.
>
> Stamped by a cold forging swaging process instead of just being
> stamped after the cold forging. Allegedly this makes a difference.
you're barking up entirely the wrong tree there.
>
> > > Menze, CWC, DT Swiss, Buchanan spokes, Delta spokes all says they
> make
>>> double butted/swaged spokes by a swaging process.
>> dt do. alpina do. i don't know about the others, but if you send me
>> samples, i'll confirm for you.
>
> Just look at their home pages, they all say that the swage their db-
> spokes.
> Here is another one; WWS Drahtspeichen GmbH. They have probably made
> spokes for more than 100 years, they also say
> "Swaged spokes"
> http://www.wws-speichen.de/en/sortiment/
>
> Of course, perhaps this +100 year old firm uses the words "swaged
> spokes" when referring to how their db-spokes looks.
some do indeed swage!!! but not all!!! and sapim draw. again, i
invite you to get up off your ass and actually inspect!!!
>
>
>>> Other manufacturers
>>> like Wheelsmith uses the term "forging" which must mean swaging, not
>>> drawing:
>>> "Wheelsmith s double-butted spokes are extremely light. The center
>>> sections are forged rather than cut, ground, or drawn to smaller
>>> diameter, giving them greater strength and uniformity."
>>> http://www.wheelsmith.com/spokes_introduction.html
>> that is not borne out by any wheelsmith spoke i've inspected - there is
>> no evidence of "forging".
>
> Well, so Wheelsmith is lying here? A more likely conclusion would be
> that your conclusion from your inspection is faulty.
really? well, since you can't be bothered to actually inspect yourself,
that makes you more credible than me then doesn't it. oh, and it's
entirely unknown for manufacturers to obscure the crap they publish to
the public - shimano's "fusion welded" hollow cranks for instance.
>
>
>>> I
>>> have yet to see one manufacturer of double butted/swaged spokes
>>> directly saying that they do so by drawing wire.
>> why would they??? to anyone that knows what they're doing, the
>> manufacturing method is obvious!
>
> They would because when spoke manufacturers talk about how they make
> their db-spokes they always say that they do so by swaging. Come on, I
> have found more than half a dozen of manufacturers that says they
> swage their db-spokes; please find a couple that says they make db-
> spokes by drawing them from wire.
> That should be easy to do if was such a common manufacturing process.
> I have searched in earnest but haven't found anything.
dude, with respect, what you need to do is suspend the dogma for just a
second, but a magnifier [10x or more] and inspect. if you see
longitudinal marks within the butted section, it's drawn. end of story.
>
>>> My information regarding Sapim spokes doesn't stem from Mr. Brandt,
>>> but from a co-owner of a bicycle store chain and a bicycle brand.
>> ah, a metallurgical/production processing expert - he must be right
>> then. i take back all i said.
>
> No he isn't, but he has decades of experience in the bicycle business
> dealing with import, manufacturing and part distributers. He surely
> knows a thing or two. He might even been at the Sapim factory since
> both Sapim and his business sponsored (in a small way) the same Pro
> Peleton team.
>
> --
> Regards
"he might even have"??? dude, give us a break. report back when you
learn to do visual inspection.
jim beam
the technical term for it is "upsetting".
RonSonic
>On 20 Maj, 06:07, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> butted, not swaged. swaging is a process, not a result.
>
>Well, that is your opinion. For actual usage of the word take a look
>here:
>http://www.buchananspokes.net/categories/custom_spoke_sets.asp
>
>In the "Spoke type" column it says: "Single gauge" for straight
>spokes and as opposed of this; "Swaged" for double butted spokes. Or
>here:
>http://www.bicycle-parts-information.com/glossary
>A glossary that describes "Double butted spokes" as : "Swaged spokes.
>The spokes are thicker at the ends than in the middle."
>Even if Jobst Brandt had created this meaning that a swaged spoke can
>both describe the process by which it is made and how it looks, that
>meaning now exist in usage in the real world. You can't win this
>argument, because even if you are right, then you are wrong. All you
>can do now is rant like people ranting about getting 200 million
>Americans to pronounce cyber with a "k" like it should, instead of
>"s".
Nah, "Kyber" is that famous mountain pass on the route between Afghanistan and
Pakistan. Gotta avoid confusion with Khyberspace, Khyberlink and Khybersex.
someone
I was under the impression that was for forming the bend not fattening
the end to make the head.
someone
hub flanges?
jim beam
> On 20 May, 14:06, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> someone wrote:
>>> On 20 May, 05:07, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>> that is not borne out by any wheelsmith spoke i've inspected - there is
>>>> no evidence of "forging".
>>> what do u term t method 4 producing t spoke head?
>> the technical term for it is "upsetting".
>
> I was under the impression that was for forming the bend not fattening
> the end to make the head.
so the words "producing t spoke head" confused you then?
someone
No, I considered the term 'upsetting' was specific spoke language to
indicate the spoke end had been bashed over to form the bend (that was
forged into my brain long ago), so what is this called (the knock
over)? OK took me 20 seconds to check upset - blunting the end (to
increase diameter of a rock drill). It's still a forging process, or
do you exclude it because the end is not heated first?
jim beam
> On 21 May, 02:40, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> someone wrote:
>>> On 20 May, 14:06, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>> someone wrote:
>>>>> On 20 May, 05:07, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>> that is not borne out by any wheelsmith spoke i've inspected - there is
>>>>>> no evidence of "forging".
>>>>> what do u term t method 4 producing t spoke head?
>>>> the technical term for it is "upsetting".
>>> I was under the impression that was for forming the bend not fattening
>>> the end to make the head.
>> so the words "producing t spoke head" confused you then?
>
> No, I considered the term 'upsetting' was specific spoke language to
> indicate the spoke end had been bashed over to form the bend (that was
> forged into my brain long ago),
erroneously. more jobst brandt no doubt.
> so what is this called (the knock
> over)?
no, it's called "bending". really.
> OK took me 20 seconds to check upset - blunting the end (to
> increase diameter of a rock drill).
congrats.
> It's still a forging process, or
> do you exclude it because the end is not heated first?
nope. "forging" is gross scale deformation with the objective of:
1. defining a certain type of microstructure and
2. a rough form of shape.
that can be done hot or cold or "warm". it's not really a finishing
process.
someone
The spoke head forming is the same as for a rivet (not closing).
Which is called? (Too long ago since metalwork class)
jim beam
upsetting. [for the nth time.]
someone
cheers. I just culdn't recall.