Torelli vs. Waterford
SONugent
(Ultegra) and Cannondale R800, I've decided that I really liked the steel ride
the best.
I would be interested to hear any opinions/info on Torelli vs. Waterford (I was
a little prejudiced towards the Torelli due to price, but know less about their
rep compared to Waterford).
I am a 2000 mile a year rider - 30-40 mile fast fitness rides, no racing.
Looking for comfort then speed and climbing ability. I want this to be the last
bike I purchase.
The Torelli had Columbus Brain tubing. How does it compare to Reynolds 531, 853
etc?
Thanks in advance for all who reply.
Kurt D. Zasadil
You've been to www.torelli.com haven't you? Unlike most of the big bike
sites it contains real information about the bikes. How they're built,
how their prepped and finished and so forth and so on. Pages and pages
of info. It's a must read for anyone considering a Torelli or a
Mondonico (they're imported by the same person.)
I'm very pleased with my O.S. It was delivered on time and the paint is
flawless. The dimensions and geometry are Italian traditional. The bike
descends like a dream. the handling is light, nimble yet predictable.
When I asked about torellis here a few months ago, I recieved very
favorable responses. Several dealers that I shopped with called the
Torellis one of the best Italian bike values in the country. They are a
little plain-jane. No fancy drop outs (but no lawyers lips either!)
Unspectacular (no chrome stays, no fades etc.) but well applied and
handsome paint. Chain hanger and a pump peg are standard. Nothing
fadish. Not even low friction plastic where the cables pass under the
BB. (mine shifts very well)
Waterfords of course pick-up where the Torellis leave off. They are art
in Reynolds tubing. The lug-work, paint and everything are absolutely
phenomenal. In terms of geometry the WF's are a little more relaxed
than the torellis. IIRC entry price on WF (all ultegra) was about $2400
w/ a several month wait for delivery. An all ultegra Torelli can be had
for around $1400-1500. My O.S with all ultegra and handbuilt Open Pros
was $1800 including the tax.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to contrast the the differences between
Reynolds and Columbus tubes and if you can make sense of the Columbus
web site you just may be a smarter man than I. (The fault I think is
that the site is probably a buying guide and spec sheet for people who
understand tubes and metals not a learning site for those that don't.)
Feel free to e-mail more specific questions about my Countach.
Kurt
In article <19991128204858...@ng-fs1.aol.com>,
Al Raden
> You've been to www.torelli.com haven't you? Unlike most of the big bike
> sites it contains real information about the bikes. How they're built,
> how their prepped and finished and so forth and so on. Pages and pages
> of info. It's a must read for anyone considering a Torelli or a
> Mondonico (they're imported by the same person.)
>
Actually, they're made by the same company - Mondonico.
>
> An all ultegra Torelli can be had
> for around $1400-1500. My O.S with all ultegra and handbuilt Open Pros
> was $1800 including the tax.
>
Sacriledge! How could you put Shimano on a Torelli??
Seriously, though, when I was looking into a Torelli, I got rave reviews from
several people on the newsgroups. There was a good article in the last issue of
Bicyclist.
-1l
Mike Jacoubowsky
one of the most decent guys in the bike biz. All-around great guy, strong
rider, no BS, and has no problems dealing with the fact that I sell zillions
of Wisconsin-built TREKs and no Italian bikes. But if and when I do sell
any Italian framesets, they'll be Torellis.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"SONugent" <sonu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991128204858...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
Kurt D. Zasadil
<ara...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> "Kurt D. Zasadil" wrote:
>
It's a must read for anyone considering a Torelli or a
> > Mondonico (they're imported by the same person.)
> >
>
> Actually, they're made by the same company - Mondonico.
Actually, the web site specifies two different locations--Lombardy and
outside Venice. The Lombards are the "special reserve frames" Nitro,
Nitro Express and so on. On those frames the lugs are pinned like the
Mondo's so they're pretty recognizable as Mondonico made. However the
Countach O.S and down are made by an unnamed factory in the Venice
area.
>
> >
> > An all ultegra Torelli can be had
> > for around $1400-1500. My O.S with all ultegra and handbuilt Open Pros
> > was $1800 including the tax.
> >
>
> Sacriledge! How could you put Shimano on a Torelli??
>
Answer A:
I know! And lightning hasn't struck me yet. How can that be?
Answer B:
Another guy at the club said the same thing on his Veloce equipped
Bianchi Veloce. I dropped him on the first climb. Then Holly who rides
her 20 year old Bottechia with a bent fork, straight bars and sun-tour
mechs dropped us both like a cat drops a dead bird on your chest while
you sleep.
I would have prefered the lightning.
Kurt
Richard McClary
>
> Seriously, though, when I was looking into a Torelli, I got rave reviews from
> several people on the newsgroups. There was a good article in the last issue of
> Bicyclist.
>
Make that the VERY LAST issue of Bicyclist; it bit the big one a year or
so ago.
Russell Seaton
I'd personally rank 531 a notch or two up from it. 853 is very
different from either. Its heat treated to give it a tensile strength
about twice Brain or 531. Therefore, they can use thinner tubes and get
the same strength theoretically. Of course, almost no one can actually
tell the difference while riding and the quality of the builder is the
only thing that matters.
I have a Waterford 1200. Very very nice. Know a few people with
Torellis. They like them. But I kind of like the idea of my bike being
built in the US instead of in a factory in Italy and then shipped over
here. Do the factories making Torellis care if they are going to the
US? Do they even care about the quality of the frame since they do not
have their name on it. All they care about is the quality is the
minimum required for Torelli to contract with them for next
year's frame production. Torelli does not make the bike. They just
market it. Same way Ritchey relabels Sugino cranks and Dia Compe
brakes. I'd prefer to buy a bike from the company that makes it.
In article <19991128204858...@ng-fs1.aol.com>,
sonu...@aol.com (SONugent) wrote:
> After test riding a Torelli Countach OS (Campy Veloce), Waterford 2200
> (Ultegra) and Cannondale R800, I've decided that I really liked the
steel ride
> the best.
>
> I would be interested to hear any opinions/info on Torelli vs.
Waterford (I was
> a little prejudiced towards the Torelli due to price, but know less
about their
> rep compared to Waterford).
>
> I am a 2000 mile a year rider - 30-40 mile fast fitness rides, no
racing.
> Looking for comfort then speed and climbing ability. I want this to be
the last
> bike I purchase.
>
> The Torelli had Columbus Brain tubing. How does it compare to Reynolds
531, 853
> etc?
>
> Thanks in advance for all who reply.
>
--
Russell Seaton
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
CV2572
The Legacy, The Ride, a bike from the most venerated historic United States
racing bicycle company ever?!?
:-)
Seriously, I think their's no comparison. However, your budget should decide.
I ride a burnt orange 2200 with purple decals. Funky.
Robin Hubert
Ground Zero
Torelli is a great value - good performance at an affordable price, albeit,
without the bells and whistles of a custom build. Waterford is an incredible
work of rideable art.
However, another important consideration is the companies behind these
products - better, the owners since they are the final authority. Like many
have already testified, Bill, the owner of Torelli, is one of cycling's
nicest people. Richard Schwinn is an ass.... plain and simple. Here's why I
say this:
Before closing my shop, I was a Waterford dealer. When I learned that
Waterford was selling to a guy working out off his garage in the
metropolitan area, I called Richard and filed a complaint. Richard didn't
seem to be concerned that this guy was working out of his garage and
undercutting the prices of many well-established, nearby shops (Beaverton,
Oregon has an incredible number of very good cycling shops). Furthermore,
Richard was one of the most arrogant, rude, and offensive people I have ever
dealt with in this industry. He treated me like the bad guy for being
concerned that someone was devaluing his product by selling it at
significant discounts. He defended this other guy who was selling "six or so
frames a year" (Richard's words) over an established, authorized dealer who
was selling 10 times that number of frames and complete bicycles each year.
I stopped doing business with Waterford after that call.
BTW, the guy working out of his garage I now understand is the new owner of
our favorite RBT shop (drum roll please)..... Beckwith Bicycles. The old
addage "birds of a feather flock together" certainly applies in this
example.
Now, whose bike would you rather be riding?
.... just my two cents. Thanks!
Stuart
gdz...@spiritone.com
Jon Isaacs
Paramounts and he has been friendly and supportive. He has personally answered
the Email to me which I have addressed to the Waterford site.
I don't know how he deals with his dealer network, I imagine it is difficult
keeping a dealer network when you are as small as Waterford is. However I
think they treat the end customers fairly.
My 1991 "Waterford" Paramount (there were non Waterford Parmounts in 1991) is
the best bike I have every ridden or owned. (Never had a Ti bike but had most
of the CF including OCLVs.) While I am sure that the Torrelli is a good bike
and would be a good choice, I think the Waterford has that something special
going for it.
Just my 2 cents
Jon Isaacs
scott
past, but what does Richard Schwinn being an ass have to do with whether or
not someone should by a Torelli or a Waterford?
Ground Zero <gdz...@spiritone.com> wrote in message
news:94399309...@ridge.spiritone.com...
Seth Moore
(Richard's words) over an established, authorized dealer who was selling 10
times that number of frames and complete bicycles each year."
You are trying to tell us you sold 60 Waterford frames per year ???
Seth Moore
alex wetmore
http://www.waterfordbikes.com/hp.htm.
alex
"scott" <shendric...@rmi.net> wrote in message
news:8qY04.2347$P4.4...@den-news1.rmi.net...
> > significant discounts. He defended this other guy who was selling "six
or
> so
> > frames a year" (Richard's words) over an established, authorized dealer
> who
> > was selling 10 times that number of frames and complete bicycles each
> year.
Eric Salathe
> I understand there was a relationship between Schwinn and Waterford
Schwinn built their Paramounts in Waterford WI (except for some later
Schwinn Paramounts that were not). When Schwinn went out of business,
Richard Schwinn kept ownership of the Waterford shop, and continued
making bikes there, labelling them "Waterford". So whether their ever
was or is now a relationship between Schwinn and Waterford depends on
what you mean by Schwinn -- Richard, Chicago, or Scott.
Scott bought the Schwinn and Paramount name, and markets bikes under
those labels. So which one carries the mystique of the classic Schwinn
Paramount, Waterford or Paramount? Or does that mean anything if they
are both good bikes?
Eric Salathe
Eric Salathe
> I would be interested to hear any opinions/info on Torelli vs. Waterford (I was
> a little prejudiced towards the Torelli due to price, but know less about their
> rep compared to Waterford).
The shop matters more than the manufactorer when it comes to dealling
with waranty problems.
> I am a 2000 mile a year rider - 30-40 mile fast fitness rides, no racing.
> Looking for comfort then speed and climbing ability. I want this to be the last
> bike I purchase.
Nothing wrong with considering psychological fit as well as physical.
You could get a lot cheaper a bike than either that would fill your
needs just fine. At the price level of the Waterford, though, you may
also want to consider a full custom frame from a local builder. You may
find a custom builder can put more of your money into features that
matter to you. On the 2200, you pay a lot for that 853 label, which may
or may not be terribly important.
> The Torelli had Columbus Brain tubing. How does it compare to Reynolds 531, 853
> etc?
Not in ways that matter to you, as opposed to the builder. There is a
natural tradeoff between weight, stiffness, durability, and price. I
have no idea what my bikes are made of, except that a magnet sticks and
they are signed by the man with the torch.
Eric Salathe
Pierre L.
short butts and a really superfine external finish. It's easily on a par
with 531, if not better, and I would say indistinguishable in the riding,
all else being equal.
Pierre
Russell Seaton <russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:821ngn$8tu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Brain is about the lowest end of high quality chromoly tubing available.
> I'd personally rank 531 a notch or two up from it. 853 is very
> different from either. Its heat treated to give it a tensile strength
> about twice Brain or 531. Therefore, they can use thinner tubes and get
> the same strength theoretically. Of course, almost no one can actually
> tell the difference while riding and the quality of the builder is the
> only thing that matters.
>
> I have a Waterford 1200. Very very nice. Know a few people with
> Torellis. They like them. But I kind of like the idea of my bike being
> built in the US instead of in a factory in Italy and then shipped over
> here. Do the factories making Torellis care if they are going to the
> US? Do they even care about the quality of the frame since they do not
> have their name on it. All they care about is the quality is the
> minimum required for Torelli to contract with them for next
> year's frame production. Torelli does not make the bike. They just
> market it. Same way Ritchey relabels Sugino cranks and Dia Compe
> brakes. I'd prefer to buy a bike from the company that makes it.
>
> In article <19991128204858...@ng-fs1.aol.com>,
> sonu...@aol.com (SONugent) wrote:
> > After test riding a Torelli Countach OS (Campy Veloce), Waterford 2200
> > (Ultegra) and Cannondale R800, I've decided that I really liked the
> steel ride
> > the best.
> >
> > I would be interested to hear any opinions/info on Torelli vs.
> Waterford (I was
> > a little prejudiced towards the Torelli due to price, but know less
> about their
> > rep compared to Waterford).
> >
> > I am a 2000 mile a year rider - 30-40 mile fast fitness rides, no
> racing.
> > Looking for comfort then speed and climbing ability. I want this to be
> the last
> > bike I purchase.
> >
> > The Torelli had Columbus Brain tubing. How does it compare to Reynolds
> 531, 853
> > etc?
> >
Rick Denney
>Brain is about the lowest end of high quality chromoly tubing available.
> I'd personally rank 531 a notch or two up from it. 853 is very
>different from either. Its heat treated to give it a tensile strength
>about twice Brain or 531. Therefore, they can use thinner tubes and get
>the same strength theoretically. Of course, almost no one can actually
>tell the difference while riding and the quality of the builder is the
>only thing that matters.
Unless the tubes are oversized, though, doing so will reduce the
stiffness of the frame. 853, for all its 190 thousand psi ultimate
tensile strength, has the same stiffness as 531, at a little over half
the strength. If you thin the walls, the frame will be less stiff,
even if it is stronger. At the same weight, you can't tell the
difference between a low-end Torelli (of Brain or 531), a low-end
Waterford (of 531) or a high-end Waterford (of 853). Assuming the same
tubing diameter, the lightest frame will be the least stiff, no matter
how fancy the steel.
>
>I have a Waterford 1200. Very very nice. Know a few people with
>Torellis. They like them. But I kind of like the idea of my bike being
>built in the US instead of in a factory in Italy and then shipped over
>here. Do the factories making Torellis care if they are going to the
>US? Do they even care about the quality of the frame since they do not
>have their name on it. All they care about is the quality is the
>minimum required for Torelli to contract with them for next
>year's frame production. Torelli does not make the bike. They just
>market it. Same way Ritchey relabels Sugino cranks and Dia Compe
>brakes. I'd prefer to buy a bike from the company that makes it.
I don't care who makes it if they do it right.
I've admired Waterfords, and even helped sell a few. They are lovely
frames, and well made. But don't justify them with myths about
materials or lore about uncaring no-name craftsmen. You'd be surprised
how many bikes coming from the factories of the big names, without
being relabeled, are made by craftsmen with less skill than those that
are being relabeled.
Rick "Just the facts" Denney
Bikeguycalvin
I have been involved with bikes for 17 years and I now own my 2nd bike made by
Waterford. The Reynolds 853 steel is technically the best steel material to
date.
I am not in the position of knowing about the Torreli, but I think you cannot
go wrong with the Waterford 2200.
Tom Reinhardt
A while ago (maybe a year or so), I was in the market for a new frame. A
dealer suggested that I look into Waterford, in addition to imports.
Anyway, he measured me and telephoned Richard Schwinn in Wisconsin. They
talked for some time, etc. So, the dealer tells me that I should
telephone or EMail Richard Schwinn sometime that week. He says that
Richard loves to talk about geometries, etc., and would like to talk to
you about the frame he's proposing. I think, fine, but, on the other
hand, I don't know why he cannot just provide me with the specifications
and let me respond if I have any questions or concerns ... as he is
presumably a busy guy.
I wait until Thursday and call Richard in Wisconsin. I ask him how the
design is going and he responds with something to the effect of "I spoke
to the dealer about all of that. All that I can tell you is that it'll
cost you "x" number of dollars."
This made my decision very easy --especially in light of the fact that
Waterford's prices were $500 higher than a custom-built from Coppi.
All this time I've wondered if it was me. By the way: I have never
regretted a minute on that bike.
Cheers,
TomR
Jim Flom
new frame a year ago, I contacted Waterford, actually for info about
Gunnars. Richard got back to me, answered my questions, referred me to a
shop that would sell me a Gunnar if I wanted one and even asked me for input
on Philadelphia area shops where they might set up a dealership.
Steve Sloan
Richard." My experience with Richard was positive. I was searching for
information about an old Schwinn that a friend gave me (and I fixed up for
my son.) I called him hoping to get 3 minutes of his time and he ended up
talking to me over 30!
He was friendly. My experience was positive. In my opinion you can't
make a value judgement on a person based on a phone call. Perhaps I got
him at a moment when he had some time to talk. Perhaps if I'd called him
when there was a work crisis, or he'd had a third cup of coffee my
experience would have different.
I am buying a new bike. It's a Rivendel not a Waterford. I have talked
to Grant Petersen a few times on the phone and my phone experiences were
not so positive. Maybe he's not a phone person...some people aren't.
Maybe he doesn't like the sound of my voice. Who knows... That doesn't
mean he doesn't sell great bikes.
I have noticed in cycling that many of the people who know a lot are kinda
gruff crotchety people. (Some of these people even post to this
newsgroup.) Please note this is a generalization based on casual
observation, I am not talking specifically about Grant Petersen or Richard
Schwinn now.
People in general vary a lot depending on their moods or chemical/hormonal
balance at the time. Maybe because it can be very solitary or maybe
because it is almost counter culture, cycling attracts a number of very
intelligent people who may have odd quirks and/or lack some social
skills. Some people in the industry are very obsessed with the machine.
We ride to escape work. For them it is work and recreation, it is their
lives all the time.
Some of these people may seem to others to be a bit grumpy. Maybe they
are, but that doesn't lessen the quality of their products or their gift
to cycling. Indeed it is us who ride their products who benefit from the
objects of their obsession. All we have to do is ride them. They live
them.
Steve Sloan
sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu
Eric Salathe
> I kind of like the idea of my bike being
> built in the US instead of in a factory in Italy and then
> shipped over here.
Didn't I see you downtown throwing rocks?
> Do the factories making Torellis care if they are going to the
> US? Do they even care about the quality of the frame since they
> do not have their name on it.
> All they care about is the quality is the
> minimum required for Torelli to contract with them for next
> year's frame production. Torelli does not make the bike. They just
> market it. Same way Ritchey relabels Sugino cranks and Dia Compe
> brakes. I'd prefer to buy a bike from the company that makes it.
That's a fairly vague statement. Rivendells are made all over the place,
yet these are highly regarded. Many top builders like Davidson, Bilenky,
or Erickson eventually hire help or outsource some of their work.
Does a hired torch in Italy making a Torelli have any less pride in his
or her work than the hired torch in Wisconsin? Neither of their names go
on the frame. The quality of the product depends on who's supervising
the work and setting the specifications. In fact, my wife's low-end
lugged Schwinn made 10 years ago in Japan has better workmanship than a
lot of frames I see coming out of small low-production workshops.
Eric Salathe
Seattle
David Granger
hand-made by a thoroughly charming and gracious Italian gentleman and his
son who represent three generations of bike builders? I am referring to
Antonio Mondonico who builds the higher end frames for Torelli ( I am
uncertain as to the builder of Contach OS). Surely a great bike is more
than its tubes. In my case, its a link to another culture with a rich sense
of cycling history and custom. If the idea of cycling Lombardy or Tuscany
doesn't strike a chord, then, why indeed get an Italian bike? I for one am
learning Italian.
CV2572 <cv2...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991130145448...@ngol03.aol.com...
mark
> After test riding a Torelli Countach OS (Campy Veloce), Waterford 2200
> (Ultegra) and Cannondale R800, I've decided that I really liked the steel ride
> the best.
>
> I would be interested to hear any opinions/info on Torelli vs. Waterford (I was
> a little prejudiced towards the Torelli due to price, but know less about their
> rep compared to Waterford).
>
> I am a 2000 mile a year rider - 30-40 mile fast fitness rides, no racing.
> Looking for comfort then speed and climbing ability. I want this to be the last
> bike I purchase.
>
> The Torelli had Columbus Brain tubing. How does it compare to Reynolds 531, 853
> etc?
>
> Thanks in advance for all who reply.
I have a Waterford 1200. They built it for me and unfortunately, mounted the rear
bridge too close to the wheel. They promptly fixed that (sweat it out, shorten,
rebraze) but didn't paint it well. They made up for that by re-painting the entire
frame over the last winter - but - they painted it the wrong color! So - nobody's
making any money on this bike and we have yet to see if they can complete the
remedy.
Other than that... the bike has 4500 perfect-fit miles on it
- Mark
Ground Zero
(or better, "sweating" out) the repairs to your frame when he was so rude to
me and several others who responded to the original post. Sounds like you
are still happy with your Waterford frame. I hope you get the frame back
soon and it is in perfect condition : )
Stuart Winsor
Ground Zero Cycles
gdz...@spiritone.com