Predicting tire width

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It needs tires,
and the rider would like tires as wide as possible. It's a Cannondale
touring bike, and like mine, the limiting spot for clearance is about
37mm between the chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.

After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too tight. I
ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s, one of the few good
tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked them up at a LBS today.

Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm inflated. I
guess I should have gone with 32s, which might have come out closer to
30mm.

It's not a huge problem. These will work. But my question:

I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim. I also
know that many manufacturers tend to overstate tire width, yielding
tires narrower than claimed, partly so they can brag about lighter
weight. (If they call it a 30 but it's only a 27, some people will say
"Wow, that's light for a 30!")

Is there some sort database somewhere that gives reliable info on actual
installed width of specific tires on specific rims?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I've looked for such a database in the past with no luck. The best I was able to find are reviews of the specific tires. Even the reviews that compare tires only compare a few. The challenge here is that the same tire model may change from year to year due to intentional design changes which get incorporated as the molds wear out (I'm not aware of how many tires are generally produced before a mold is considered to be at the end of it's lifespan, but I imagine it's in the 100K range), so the same tire from year to year may have very different dimensions - recall my recent anecdote of the Fortezza Tricomp debacle.

I also just replaced the rear tire on my Cdale Habit - WTB Ranger 2.8 to a Vittoria Martello 2.8. The WTB fit well with tight-but-comfortable clearance, while the injection molding nibs on the Vittoria are hitting the seat-stays.

Unfortunately, actual vs predicted tire sizing is pretty much a crap shoot.

[AMuzi]

None I know. An experienced mechanic can give some direction
but that's about it.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

I find it curious that Frank is a supposed engineer and cannot take into account the inner width of rims.

[Zen Cycle]

I find it curious that someone who "read out three libraries" doesn't
realize Frank wrote the exact opposite.

"I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim".

dumbass.

[AMuzi]

> I find it curious that Frank is a supposed engineer and cannot take into account the inner width of rims.

It's not ordered. It's chaotic because stated size and
actual tire cross section/ volume are largely unrelated.

[Tom Kunich]

When you're through agreeing with yourself it might possibly occur to you that Frank was complaining about inflated tire width while using a racing tire. Racing tires are constructed differently than touring tires but obviously you don't know that. It must be all of that racing you do that you can't tell the difference between a CX tire and a road tire.

You're simply too stupid to talk to and I will now drop this iteration of your idiocy in the kill file that Liebermann claims does exist because he can tell by the message header.,

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/22/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

I'm not at all surprised that Tom couldn't understand what I wrote.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

>>> I find it curious that Frank is a supposed engineer and cannot take into account the inner width of rims.
>> I find it curious that someone who "read out three libraries" doesn't
>> realize Frank wrote the exact opposite.
>> "I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim".
>> dumbass.
>
> When you're through agreeing with yourself it might possibly occur to you that Frank was complaining about inflated tire width while using a racing tire. Racing tires are constructed differently than touring tires but obviously you don't know that. It must be all of that racing you do that you can't tell the difference between a CX tire and a road tire.
>
> You're simply too stupid to talk to and I will now drop this iteration of your idiocy in the kill file that Liebermann claims does exist because he can tell by the message header.,

??? WTF? That 'distinction' is not an actual distinction.

Modern race bikes ship with 700-28 clinchers which, to me,
are 'touring tires', quite unlike my 23mm tubulars.

[Zen Cycle]

Yup, I figure that out from the OP when I first read it.

> Racing tires are constructed differently than touring tires but obviously you don't know that.

There was no mention of touring tires vs racing tires, and whether the
tire is a 'racing' vs 'touring' has nothing to do with the advertised vs
realized tire width, but feel free to edify us on how tire construction
inherently affects the realized vs advertised width in the context of
touring vs racing tires. (I'm sure that will be along right after you
explain how PWM is used to test cables)

> It must be all of that racing you do that you can't tell the difference between a CX tire and a road tire.

Oh, wait, now we're talking about CX tires? So I shouldn't run a CX tire
in a downtown criterium? Thanks, I had no idea.

>
> You're simply too stupid to talk to

lol... says the guy who reads "I know actual installed tire width
depends partly on the rim" and claims it proves Frank doesn't understand
you have to take the rim width into account. That's right up there with
a guy who reads "The CC frame is equipped with our own exclusive
straight blade unicrown fork" from the Steelman website and insists
Steelman never made unicrown forks.

> and I will now drop this iteration of your idiocy in the kill file

Blocking me won't prevent you from making an idiot of yourself.

> that Liebermann claims does exist because he can tell by the message header.,

wait, I thought Jeff was in you kill file as well. If so, how were you
aware that he wrote you can't be using a killfile since your messages
headers show you're responding through google groups? Oh, right, it's
all those people that email you about all the goings on here....sure....

--
Add xx to reply

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 02:53:14 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

see
http://biketouringnews.com/components-touring-bicycles/tire-sizes-actual-vs-nominal/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 07:49:28 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 7:34:33?AM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Interesting statement. Can you tell us what the different construction
is between racing tires and plain old road tires.

Maybe the racing tires are made with hot air and moonbeams to be super
light in weight while road tires are made from "fabric" and rubber?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 07:49:28 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>You're simply too stupid to talk to...

Are you now in the lecturing business? Last time I checked, this was
a discussion group about bicycle technology. In a discussion group,
you talk *WITH* others, not to them.

>and I will now drop this iteration of your idiocy in the kill
>file that Liebermann claims does exist because he can tell by
>the message header.,

Your NNTP message header includes a line with:
User-Agent: G2/1.0
User-Agent is your Usenet news reader. G2/1.0 is one way to identify
a web based news reader. Since your NNTP message header also
includes:
Message-ID: <c7e8a15b-e7fc-41e2...@googlegroups.com>
you are posting directly to Google Groups from a web browser. Google
Groups does include a kill file or message filter as a feature.

I've posted the above explanation to RBT at least 4 times in the past
to counter your dissemination of false information. I suspect that
you have run out discussion points and are now recycling old news due
to your lack of a functional imagination.

There's another reason that assures me that you don't have a
functional kill file. Kill files are complicated and require a
working knowledge of regex (regular expressions) to be useful. Since
you have asked for no assistance with kill files and regex, I can
easily deduce that you are not a kill file user.

Anyway, it won't matter after Feb 22, 2024, when you can no longer
post misinformation to RBT. Of course, you will attempt to obtain an
alternate Usenet News service provider. However, because nobody in
RBT will be willing or able to help you setup a Usenet News client,
you will soon disappear from RBT and Usenet. You will not be missed.

You have 2 months and the clock is ticking. 2 months is probably not
long enough for you to post corrections for your misinformation,
provide accurate numbers to replace the one's that you contrived,
apologize to those in RBT who you have insulted, confess to contriving
false employment, repent for your numerous sins, and offer forgiveness
for putting words in the mouth of your critics. You can still redeem
what's left of your reputation by doing something useful instead of
destructive for the next 2 months.

08/03/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/cJi96AJ2A3k/m/JEyDC0TDBgAJ>
"I'll bet that there wasn't anything I didn't do wrong"


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 16:32:26 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Even a casual look at Tom's posting to RBT shows a history of 18
years, more or less. Do you really expect Tom to clean all those years
of garbage from the Internet in only 2 months?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 07:40:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Even a casual look at Tom's posting to RBT shows a history of 18
>years, more or less. Do you really expect Tom to clean all those years
>of garbage from the Internet in only 2 months?

No. I expect Tom to try. Absolution will only be delivered after
repentance although I would prefer retribution.

Here's some of the earliest stuff I could find by Tom, from 1992 to
1997:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=author%3AThomas+author%3AKunich>

Notice that nothing has changed Tom in 26 years:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/t4LjtZqnKHI/m/5yfqZlqAriYJ>
"Ahh, you're back Jobst. Now you can solve the mystery involved
around the Tour. Were you or were you NOT the naked running man on
the Champs on the final day of the Tour?"

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 16:51:59 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 07:40:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Even a casual look at Tom's posting to RBT shows a history of 18
>>years, more or less. Do you really expect Tom to clean all those years
>>of garbage from the Internet in only 2 months?
>
>No. I expect Tom to try. Absolution will only be delivered after
>repentance although I would prefer retribution.
>
>Here's some of the earliest stuff I could find by Tom, from 1992 to
>1997:
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=author%3AThomas+author%3AKunich>
>
>Notice that nothing has changed Tom in 26 years:
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/t4LjtZqnKHI/m/5yfqZlqAriYJ>
>"Ahh, you're back Jobst. Now you can solve the mystery involved
>around the Tour. Were you or were you NOT the naked running man on
>the Champs on the final day of the Tour?"

Goodness! I thought that 17 or 18 years was a long time and now I
learn it was a lot longer.

You know, perhaps this is why Tom had all those short term jobs... can
you imagine anyone willing to put up with him, as he displays himself
on the Web, for more then a very short time?

Can you imagine the reply a Personnel Manager might get when he calls
one of Tom's previous employers and asks, We've been looking at this
guy "Tom Kunich", says he worked for you for a while. What can you
tell me about him?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:15:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 16:51:59 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 07:40:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Even a casual look at Tom's posting to RBT shows a history of 18
>>>years, more or less. Do you really expect Tom to clean all those years
>>>of garbage from the Internet in only 2 months?
>>
>>No. I expect Tom to try. Absolution will only be delivered after
>>repentance although I would prefer retribution.
>>
>>Here's some of the earliest stuff I could find by Tom, from 1992 to
>>1997:
>><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=author%3AThomas+author%3AKunich>
>>
>>Notice that nothing has changed Tom in 26 years:
>><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/t4LjtZqnKHI/m/5yfqZlqAriYJ>
>>"Ahh, you're back Jobst. Now you can solve the mystery involved
>>around the Tour. Were you or were you NOT the naked running man on
>>the Champs on the final day of the Tour?"
>
>Goodness! I thought that 17 or 18 years was a long time and now I
>learn it was a lot longer.

Add another 5 years. I arbitrarily selected a quote from 1997.
2023 - 1997 = 26 years
However, the time span for the articles I found were from 1992 to
1997. Therefore, the earliest article was posted:
2023 - 1992 = 31 years ago.
In about 2 weeks, it will be 2024, so you can also add 1 additional
year for:
2024 - 1992 = 32 years ago.
In that year, Tom would have been 32 years old.

>You know, perhaps this is why Tom had all those short term jobs... can
>you imagine anyone willing to put up with him, as he displays himself
>on the Web, for more then a very short time?

I believe a better question is what was Tom doing during the 19 years
between the end of his military career and the fist job listed on his
resume.

>Can you imagine the reply a Personnel Manager might get when he calls
>one of Tom's previous employers and asks, We've been looking at this
>guy "Tom Kunich", says he worked for you for a while. What can you
>tell me about him?

Tom probably received a glowing reference from his current employer at
the time. They were probably glad to get rid of Tom and a highly
positive reference would be much easier than firing him.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 10:58:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:15:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 16:51:59 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 07:40:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>Even a casual look at Tom's posting to RBT shows a history of 18
> >>>years, more or less. Do you really expect Tom to clean all those years
> >>>of garbage from the Internet in only 2 months?
> >>
> >>No. I expect Tom to try. Absolution will only be delivered after
> >>repentance although I would prefer retribution.

a) it's going to take a lot longer than two months for him to undo all the damage he's done here
2) moot point, because it ain't gonna happen

> >>
> >>Here's some of the earliest stuff I could find by Tom, from 1992 to
> >>1997:
> >><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=author%3AThomas+author%3AKunich>
> >>
> >>Notice that nothing has changed Tom in 26 years:
> >><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/t4LjtZqnKHI/m/5yfqZlqAriYJ>
> >>"Ahh, you're back Jobst. Now you can solve the mystery involved
> >>around the Tour. Were you or were you NOT the naked running man on
> >>the Champs on the final day of the Tour?"
> >
> >Goodness! I thought that 17 or 18 years was a long time and now I
> >learn it was a lot longer.
> Add another 5 years. I arbitrarily selected a quote from 1997.
> 2023 - 1997 = 26 years
> However, the time span for the articles I found were from 1992 to
> 1997. Therefore, the earliest article was posted:
> 2023 - 1992 = 31 years ago.
> In about 2 weeks, it will be 2024, so you can also add 1 additional
> year for:
> 2024 - 1992 = 32 years ago.
> In that year, Tom would have been 32 years old.

32? since he's allegedly in his late 70's I'm thinking he would have been closer to 50 back then

> >You know, perhaps this is why Tom had all those short term jobs... can
> >you imagine anyone willing to put up with him, as he displays himself
> >on the Web, for more then a very short time?
> I believe a better question is what was Tom doing during the 19 years
> between the end of his military career and the fist job listed on his
> resume.
> >Can you imagine the reply a Personnel Manager might get when he calls
> >one of Tom's previous employers and asks, We've been looking at this
> >guy "Tom Kunich", says he worked for you for a while. What can you
> >tell me about him?
> Tom probably received a glowing reference from his current employer at
> the time. They were probably glad to get rid of Tom and a highly
> positive reference would be much easier than firing him.

I've mentioned, I actually did that once to get rid of somebody that they wouldn't let me fire.

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It needs tires,
> and the rider would like tires as wide as possible. It's a Cannondale
> touring bike, and like mine, the limiting spot for clearance is about
> 37mm between the chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>
> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too tight. I
> ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s, one of the few good
> tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked them up at a LBS today.
>
> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm inflated. I
> guess I should have gone with 32s, which might have come out closer to
> 30mm.
>

Maybe maybe not!

> It's not a huge problem. These will work. But my question:
>
> I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim. I also
> know that many manufacturers tend to overstate tire width, yielding
> tires narrower than claimed, partly so they can brag about lighter
> weight. (If they call it a 30 but it's only a 27, some people will say
> "Wow, that's light for a 30!")
>

I have heard it claimed but I’m not convinced by it particularly across a
range.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/grand-prix-5000-comparison

25-32mm GP5000Seem to be broadly within range, on a similar width rim as
well.

I’ve had the reverse with some Panaracer GravelKings SK that blew up big,
which made mud clearance more tricky.

> Is there some sort database somewhere that gives reliable info on actual
> installed width of specific tires on specific rims?
>

I believe SRAM did have some sort of technology but for that but couldn’t
convince others to adopt it?

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Similar or same sized tires see also some Gravel tires, but touring tires
do have more robust sidewalls and generally construction is more robust not
as robust as more Gravity focused MTB tires but certainly Marathons and
similar will survive glass slashing that would be career ending for a road
or Gravel tire.

I generally retire the Big Apples on the commute bike when it gets too many
gashes, even quite large slashes doesn’t result in bulging etc.

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 08:10:49 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 10:58:35?PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:15:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:

>> >Goodness! I thought that 17 or 18 years was a long time and now I
>> >learn it was a lot longer.
>> Add another 5 years. I arbitrarily selected a quote from 1997.
>> 2023 - 1997 = 26 years
>> However, the time span for the articles I found were from 1992 to
>> 1997. Therefore, the earliest article was posted:
>> 2023 - 1992 = 31 years ago.
>> In about 2 weeks, it will be 2024, so you can also add 1 additional
>> year for:
>> 2024 - 1992 = 32 years ago.
>> In that year, Tom would have been 32 years old.
>
>32? since he's allegedly in his late 70's I'm thinking he would have been closer to 50 back then

Oops. My mistake. Tom was born in 1944. In 1992, he would have
been: 1992 - 1944 = 48 years old. Hopefully, when my eyesight is
fixed, my math will improve.

I thought it might be interesting to see from what company Tom was
posting his Usenet news from in 1992. In 1992, we were just getting
connected to the internet in Santa Cruz CA and almost everything was
going through two local universities. That was well before 1996, when
Sprint was first to resell bandwidth to individual users. In 1992,
one had to be either associated with a large company or university in
order to obtain internet access. Tom's online resume:
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>
shows Tom working for "Various Companies" which isn't much help.
Perhaps one of these companies had internet access?

This is Tom's earliest posting that I could find (Aug 25, 1992):
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8sQFgxIS71c/m/jc1rpspUjVIJ>
Unfortunately, the article does not show Tom's email domain or
signature, which would have given me a clue. About half the other RBT
postings are from sites, companies and universities. That
information, and much more was previously available on Google Groups,
but was removed over the years by Google. Oh well.

[John B.]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 08:10:49 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege. The only rule
was that if you brought a guy into the country to work then you had to
get him out of the country if he quit or you fired him.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:04:08 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 12/22/2023 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 7:34:33?AM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
tires?

Granted much of my bike riding has been in developing countries where
glass bottles can be resold and thus aren't usually scattered on the
roads. In fact the worse flat I can remember was running over a stick
with a bent nail in it, punched two holes in the tire... which rather
emphasized the foolishness in running over sticks :-) That was back in
the days before I carried spare inner tubes - sitting in the mud on
the side of the road, in the rain, trying to get a patch to stick on a
wet inner tube...

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
areas such as areas north of Heathrow.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing

>> tires?...

>
> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.

I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.

Members of my extended family have tales of worker abuse. One member of
the extended family provided testimony to a House of Representatives
committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He talked about
the damage to a family owned gas station by National Guard bullets, when
Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest. I've read the
transcript.

Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen abuses by both
management and by labor. But if an entire workforce gambles livelihood
by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely that they have
serious complaints.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 00:59:05 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> gashes, even quite large slashes doesn?t result in bulging etc.

>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>> tires?
>>
>> Granted much of my bike riding has been in developing countries where
>> glass bottles can be resold and thus aren't usually scattered on the
>> roads. In fact the worse flat I can remember was running over a stick
>> with a bent nail in it, punched two holes in the tire... which rather
>> emphasized the foolishness in running over sticks :-) That was back in
>> the days before I carried spare inner tubes - sitting in the mud on
>> the side of the road, in the rain, trying to get a patch to stick on a
>> wet inner tube...
>>
>
>The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>
>Roger Merriman

I'm not familiar with England but here, if it is within the city there
will probably be road sweepers. Minimum salary, of course, and usually
women, but clean streets.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/video/street-sweeper-brings-dog-work-day-65244857
The dog isn't the usually accessory :-) The story was that she wanted
a dog and her boyfriend said "sure but you've got to take care of it",
so she took the dog to work.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Thu, 21 Dec 2023 22:05:14 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net>:

>I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It needs tires,
>and the rider would like tires as wide as possible. It's a Cannondale
>touring bike, and like mine, the limiting spot for clearance is about
>37mm between the chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>
>After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too tight. I
>ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s, one of the few good
>tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked them up at a LBS today.
>
>Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm inflated. I
>guess I should have gone with 32s, which might have come out closer to
>30mm.

I mounted Continental Grand Prix 5000 S TR Folding Tires - 28-622 -
black on DT Swiss P 1800 SPLINE db 23 wheels (ERTRO 18-622), when
building our bikes in spring this year.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20230810/P1069511.jpg>

Inflated to just over 4 bar, the tires on both bikes are almost exactly
28 mm wide from sidewall to sidewall.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/reifen/gp5000_IMG_2007.jpg>
(measured today on my bike, on hear bike I got 28.05 mm)

Just another data point.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

[Roger Merriman]

Well indeed not generally a problem on most roads and indeed is something
cycleways next to bypasses which admittedly are generally much older stuff
can suffer from.

Though that section on the commute is particularly bad for it and indeed
cars, ie the glass debris is due to crashes, not sure why really it is but
I suspect it’s the junctions which clog and then folks boot it after and
lanes merging etc.

Bar the glass it’s fairly calm on the bike, the big junctions are protected
and it’s quite a different experience.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Pre unions some folks got paid in tokens, which they could only spend at
the company shop renting a house from the company and so on.

It’s very much the everything in moderation or at least not to the extreme
ends.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:55:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

"Way back when" all this is likely true but this is today. If you
don't like the job go and get another.

And yes, I've seen it happen. When I lived in the U.S. I bought a
Japanese car (don't remember the make) and was having it serviced and
got to talking with the mechanic. He'd been in some union, working for
an Aluminum Company, that took the lads out on strike. "My" mechanic
decided that this was a bunch of "s--t" and went off and got a job
with a car dealer. Told me that working "flat rate" he was making more
money then union wages and nobody was taking him out on strike.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Gravel King series offers a half dozen treads on the same
casing. New bikes nearby with Gravel Kings measure:
33mm actual 31mm
38mm actual 36mm
43mm actual 40mm
all with low-height treads (most popular versions) but big
knobbies and smooth are also out there.

These new bikes have regular wheels, Campagnolo Zonda,
Ambrosio WS23 and Velocity Deep-V respectively, nothing extreme.

[AMuzi]

Semantically unclear to me.
Popular touring models such as Gravel King, Pasela etc have
supple thin open sidewalls with fine thread material.
Commuter tires such as Urban Max and RibMo have heavy stiff
sidewalls.

[AMuzi]

I'm empathetic, as we've all had those bad days. But they
are unusual which is why they make great anecdotes.

I was riding with a small group in Richland County (hilly,
unglaciated) and the one rider with clinchers suffered a
burst tire. I stretched a new Clement 220 silk ($$$! about
$12 then) over to his rim as we had no alternate. It was
lumpy with shredded sidewalls when we arrived in town 10~12
miles later.

[AMuzi]

+1
My experience as well.

[Lou Holtman]

Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7

Result:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9

Lou

[AMuzi]

New Santana tandem nearby with Gator Skin 700-28 on Velocity
Fusion actual = 26.5mm.

[AMuzi]

Not disputing that situation (that and similar are well
known) but some people stayed to carp and moan while others
moved on to other, often more promising situations.

[AMuzi]

Exactly.
None of those stories involve actual forced servitude;
People can do to you exactly and only what you will bear.
Had enough? Walk.

[AMuzi]

That's Nederlands.
We were discussing less developed countries!

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iW9H3QSBE1c/Tfik-0vZxSI/AAAAAAAADh4/A5a1ywCfYWw/s1600/debris_field.JPG

http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189

https://bikesnobnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/trash-in-bike-lane.jpeg

quick web search shows myriad similar examples.

[Frank Krygowski]

Indeed! As I think I mentioned, the very latest new bike lanes in our
area were debris-clogged within a week. One downpour did the job,
washing mountains of dirt and gravel into the lanes. Subsequent rain has
removed some of it, but much remains, and will probably still be there
come spring.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I didn't measure, but online sources claim this bike's inner rim width
is 17.5mm, so 0.5 less than yours. Seems not enough to account for the
difference.

The tire's box says just Continental Grand Prix 5000, no extra letters
like S or TR.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Situations vary, which should be obvious. The U.S. is currently in a
period of worker scarcity, with "We're hiring!" signs very common. At
least for low level jobs, many can probably jump ship at will.

But during lean employment times, that can be much more difficult,
especially if family responsibilities restrict a person's ability to
change cities.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

IME moving[1] to take any job, with the natural progression
of skills/wage increases, will quickly put a guy ahead over
any time period versus another guy over the same time
including 'laid off' or 'slacking' time.

p.s. One job is usually a lower standard of living than 2,
or 1-1/2, or one with a side hustle.

As always, YMMV and likely did/does.

[1] Across the street as it were in the same industry or
across the country as I have also done.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/24/2023 1:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 11:59 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Situations vary, which should be obvious. The U.S. is currently in a
>> period of worker scarcity, with "We're hiring!" signs very common. At
>> least for low level jobs, many can probably jump ship at will.
>>
>> But during lean employment times, that can be much more difficult,
>> especially if family responsibilities restrict a person's ability to
>> change cities.
>>
>
> IME moving[1] to take any job, with the natural progression of
> skills/wage increases, will quickly put a guy ahead over any time period
> versus another guy over the same time including 'laid off' or 'slacking'
> time.

Well, that depends too. There are people who rise rather quickly from
very low level jobs to upper management positions, all within the same
company. My father was one. Could he instead have jumped to an
out-of-state company? Given the houseful of kids who would all have
needed to change schools, it's very doubtful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Even london does that at least most, my commute cycleway is old and barely
used and forgotten so gets a street cleaner man and cart few times a year,
it crosses two council boundaries.

But newer stuff certainly gets cleaned with these wee mini sweepers, after
all stuff like the, Chiswick high street cycleway handles more traffic than
the road during rush hours.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

I’ve always taken Schwalbe line ie stuff like Marathon types or similar for
the commute/touring I’ve never toured or likely to but do commute, and such
tires are popular a glance at a bike rack, will verify this.

To be honest the sidewalls for the commute is less of thing, the Big Apples
have lightweight sidewalls but doesn’t seem to effect the tires durability
on the commute, wouldn’t last long down a black run get slashed open in no
time.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Ryder]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:40:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 12/24/2023 10:01 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

NO broken glass where I ride..

[Roger Merriman]

Nor on my leisure rides be that into Surrey hills or into london, it’s only
the cycleways next to bypasses that are prone to such stuff, and that one
section which is combination of being closer to the kerb and one of the
roads that is a accident black spot mainly due to traffic congestion and
design I guess it’s all of 1/4 of mile can occasionally pass broken glass
on route but it’s rare and generally it’s to the side next to kerb or even
on the cycleway which is wide enough for most part, it’s only on the
flyover that has a spread of glass.

And yes some of the trails I use more like you use are glass free.

It’s either motor vehicles or drunk folks dropping bottles.

But to be honest I’d use BigApples even without glass resistant nature, the
fact they last 5/8k (miles) and ride well.

There only downside is they don’t like mud if I take woods home, and drift
about.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I don't see any trash in that photo, just leaves dropped from the trees.

>
> Result:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>
> Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Go figure. They swept it anyway.

Lou

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:37:31 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 12/24/2023 10:01 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>>>>> tires?...
>>>>
>>>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>>>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>>>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>>> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
>>> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
>>> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>> Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7
>>
>> Result:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>>
>> Lou
>
>That's Nederlands.
>We were discussing less developed countries!
>
>https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iW9H3QSBE1c/Tfik-0vZxSI/AAAAAAAADh4/A5a1ywCfYWw/s1600/debris_field.JPG
>
>http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>
>https://bikesnobnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/trash-in-bike-lane.jpeg
>
>quick web search shows myriad similar examples.

Well :-) offer all those on unemployment the option. No pay or sweep
the street.

Or would that result in a charge against the government for cruel and
unusual punishment?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

In fact people with names like "Muzi" and "Krygowski" probably arrived
in the U.S. for exactly the same reason. And, of course, historically
most of the U.S. population :-)

There was a story going around in Singapore years ago about the "White
man asking the Chinese bloke, "How come all we get here is poor
Chinese people" and the Chinese bloke replied, "The rich folk stayed
home".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/24/2023 3:03 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> I guess it’s all of 1/4 of mile can occasionally pass broken glass
> on route but it’s rare and generally it’s to the side next to kerb or even
> on the cycleway which is wide enough for most part, it’s only on the
> flyover that has a spread of glass.
>
> And yes some of the trails I use more like you use are glass free.

The trails I've ridden have usually been glass free, but not always.
When we lived down south, there was one riverside trail we used as a
convenient shortcut within the city. Every couple of months there would
be broken glass on it. It had to be deliberate vandalism, because the
trail was too far from any roads.

Here in my suburban village, there are two very short trails I often use
as shortcuts. Each has had broken glass once or twice, probably from
kids purposely breaking bottles. And each of those times, I've cleaned
up the glass myself. If left to the village, the glass would still be there.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Wet leaves can be just as slippery as ice.

>> Result:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9

I get the idea that Netherlands is a very prosperous country. Here in
the U.S., it seems that even important roads sometimes lack that level
of maintenance and care, usually because of budget worries.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Most people can afford to pay a lot of taxes ;-). Our roads are well maintained.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

A block away on a street that parallel's my own they had repaved it. Then they were working on an adjacent street and rather than simply going two long blocks in the opposite direction and onto the freeway, double semi's drove right through the neighborhood streets and turned that freshly paved street into gravel! I hadn't gone that way in a long while because the road was so bad. Then I was forced to turn down it because of road work. I was sort of surprised that the road was not as I remembered it. Then I realized that the road had indeed been turned into gravel but it had all been swept off and while the road underneath was still pretty bad, it was nothing like what it had been before they looked the other way when trucks went though it. There are prominent "No Truck" signs on a lot of local streets with heavy transportation trucks using them regardless of signs. Local delivery trucks are one thing but large doubles with Peterson or Caterpillar Tractors tractors on them are supposed to be limited to roads built to take the load.

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[Roger Merriman]

Which really is a political decision certainly for urban/suburban areas
America is far from poor, likewise the UK certainly in areas like London
they will patch holes and so on or clear debris.


Less so out in the sticks where the roads can and are in places a touch
rough! With potholes older than me!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/26/2023 7:44 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>

>> I get the idea that Netherlands is a very prosperous country. Here in
>> the U.S., it seems that even important roads sometimes lack that level
>> of maintenance and care, usually because of budget worries.
>>
>
> Which really is a political decision certainly for urban/suburban areas
> America is far from poor, likewise the UK certainly in areas like London
> they will patch holes and so on or clear debris.

Of course it's a political decision.

America is the land of "No new taxes!!!" Repaving or repairing potholes
or even sweeping the pavement costs tax money. And smoooth, clean
pavement is obviously socialistic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Sort but not really.

We have crushingly high (historically speaking) taxes at all
levels as services decline or are discontinued. It's an
indicator of inefficiency at best or endemic corruption more
probably.

[Zen Cycle]

On 12/23/2023 5:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 08:10:49 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 10:58:35?PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:15:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>> Goodness! I thought that 17 or 18 years was a long time and now I
>>>> learn it was a lot longer.
>>> Add another 5 years. I arbitrarily selected a quote from 1997.
>>> 2023 - 1997 = 26 years
>>> However, the time span for the articles I found were from 1992 to
>>> 1997. Therefore, the earliest article was posted:
>>> 2023 - 1992 = 31 years ago.
>>> In about 2 weeks, it will be 2024, so you can also add 1 additional
>>> year for:
>>> 2024 - 1992 = 32 years ago.
>>> In that year, Tom would have been 32 years old.
>>
>> 32? since he's allegedly in his late 70's I'm thinking he would have been closer to 50 back then
>
> Oops. My mistake. Tom was born in 1944. In 1992, he would have
> been: 1992 - 1944 = 48 years old. Hopefully, when my eyesight is
> fixed, my math will improve.
>
> I thought it might be interesting to see from what company Tom was
> posting his Usenet news from in 1992. In 1992, we were just getting
> connected to the internet in Santa Cruz CA and almost everything was
> going through two local universities. That was well before 1996, when
> Sprint was first to resell bandwidth to individual users. In 1992,
> one had to be either associated with a large company or university in
> order to obtain internet access. Tom's online resume:
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>
> shows Tom working for "Various Companies" which isn't much help.
> Perhaps one of these companies had internet access?
>
> This is Tom's earliest posting that I could find (Aug 25, 1992):
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8sQFgxIS71c/m/jc1rpspUjVIJ>
> Unfortunately, the article does not show Tom's email domain or
> signature, which would have given me a clue. About half the other RBT
> postings are from sites, companies and universities. That
> information, and much more was previously available on Google Groups,
> but was removed over the years by Google. Oh well.

Helpful hint: Clicking the reply button on a specific message in google
groups often reveals domain information. In the case of the above link
from 1992 that you provided, tom's email is listed as:

to...@netcom.com

According to a quick websearch Netcom.com was apparent;y the largest ISP
in the SF bay area at the time.

According to his resume he was "Consulting Electronics Engineer" at
"Various Companies" during that period. Interestingly, the little
snippet of the header shows the message was posted to usenet Tue, 25 Aug
92 18:11:08 GMT, translating to 10:11 AM local time.

So either tommy wasn't working, or he logged into the email account at work.

>

--
Add xx to reply

[Tom Kunich]

It certainly makes this phony electronics engineer frustrqated to hear that I have done 100 times better than he could ever hope for He is left with nothing more than to deny that I am doing well and he isn't.

[Zen Cycle]

Anyone else's fire alarm set off by this clown blowing incompetent smoke?

[Frank Krygowski]

Historically speaking high taxes? Are you comparing to pre WW1?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Federal%2C_State%2C_and_Local_income_tax_GDP.pdf/page1-1200px-Federal%2C_State%2C_and_Local_income_tax_GDP.pdf.jpg

I don't doubt that corruption exists. As an example, Ohioans were
famously hit with utility fees generated by bribe-enabled legislation
that's led to federal prosecutions of powerful state legislators.
Incredible amounts of money changed hands illegally, and I'm still angry
that there are companies and politicians so far unpunished. I'll note
that the politicians who benefited were all right wing.

But at the level of street paving? I doubt that fortunes are being made
illegally, and I also doubt that inefficiencies are huge. There is a
right wing myth of super-efficient private enterprise vs.
super-inefficient government; but what I've observed on both sides does
not match that at all.

And as usual, I'd be interested in what model you'd prefer we emulate.
The tax-to-GDP list in this page puts the U.S. pretty low.
https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-states.pdf
We could copy Mexico, I suppose. But I think I'd rather copy Netherlands.

--
- Frank Krygowski