New KMC chain squeals after only 10 miles

[Joerg]

Did a 34 miler yesterday after giving the bike two new tires, a new
cassette and a new chain. 10 miles into the ride the new chain began a
slight squeal at one location. It is a KMC Z8.3 chain for 8-speed road
bikes and I used the missing link that came with it (couldn't pry the
old one off anyhow).

In the past I always got 250mi out of a factory lube, assuming no rain.
Did something change?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Sepp Ruf]

Joerg:

> Did a 34 miler yesterday after giving the bike two new tires, a new
> cassette and a new chain. 10 miles into the ride the new chain began a
> slight squeal at one location. It is a KMC Z8.3 chain for 8-speed road
> bikes and I used the missing link that came with it (couldn't pry the
> old one off anyhow).
>
> In the past I always got 250mi out of a factory lube, assuming no rain.
> Did something change?

There was no factory lube on the ML.


--
Secured bike path, Krasnodar
<https://t.me/russlaenderHumor/213>

[Tom Kunich]

If anyone tells you that the factory lube on the chain is any good they don't know what they're talking about. That lube isn't exactly lubrication but intended as an
anti-rust compound.

Most of the chain lubes are terrible. I think I've tried everyone of them at some time or another. I paid a small fortune for things like Rock & Roll and others. But actual wax with ultra-fine Teflon powder in it works by far the best. Yeah its a pain in the butt to do, but not only is chain life greatly extended but the cogs and rings stay clean as new.

I bought a $30 ultrasonic cleaner and always clean the chain with Ultraclean which is a super soap that I get in the local auto parts store. Then after 5 minutes of ultrasonic at 50 degrees C. I wash the chain completely in water. and let it dry completely on a hook. Then at a used junk store I bought a hot pot. Two blocks of wax and a small hand full of finely powered Teflon mixed in and stirred well, and I cook it at just melting temperature for about 20 minutes. When you put the chain in you should see bubbles where the air in the bearing spaces is escaping and being replaced with wax and Teflon. I leave it in that for about 30 minutes and then lift it out with long nose pliers and hang it on the same hook and let it dry. Don't touch it because it is really hot. AFTER a couple of hours I slide the chain back and forth through some shop towels to try and break the majority of excess wax off. You also have to push a quick link through the end links so that the quick link can be easily inserted. You can tell when everything is correct because if you try to put the quick link on in the small-small it is so slippery you can hardly hold it enough to put the quick link on.

[Joerg]

On 6/3/22 2:46 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Joerg:
>> Did a 34 miler yesterday after giving the bike two new tires, a new
>> cassette and a new chain. 10 miles into the ride the new chain began a
>> slight squeal at one location. It is a KMC Z8.3 chain for 8-speed road
>> bikes and I used the missing link that came with it (couldn't pry the
>> old one off anyhow).
>>
>> In the past I always got 250mi out of a factory lube, assuming no rain.
>> Did something change?
>
> There was no factory lube on the ML.
>

It had the normal waxy sticky feeling as they always did, including the
missing link.

[Joerg]

On 6/3/22 1:14 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Did a 34 miler yesterday after giving the bike two new tires, a new
> cassette and a new chain. 10 miles into the ride the new chain began a
> slight squeal at one location. It is a KMC Z8.3 chain for 8-speed road
> bikes and I used the missing link that came with it (couldn't pry the
> old one off anyhow).
>
> In the past I always got 250mi out of a factory lube, assuming no rain.
> Did something change?
>

Tom, for some reason the news server won't let me respond to your
message, so I'll try here:

Well, I keep it simpler and without taking it off every time. Out here
you sometimes have to clean after every ride because some stretches of
"road" are quite dusty or muddy. Other times the chain gets wet.
Currently the state of cleanliness of both road bike and MTB looks like
this :-)

https://racing.trekbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/image1-1-1000x600-c-center.jpeg

I clean the chain and then use White Lightning Epic Ride as a lube. But
I never had to do that with any new chains, definitely not from Shimano
and KMC.

[Roger Merriman]

I’ve always used a new chain for maybe a ride or so before it needed
oiling, I favour Squirt which is some sort of wax based lube.

As generally stuff that keeps clean seems to work better long term than
short term.

Only exception being wet filthy MTB rides where I’d expect to have to wash
re lube etc anyway.

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

You musta applied your special magic to that KMC chain, Joerg. Kudos to you. I wouldn't have bet before you told us that even you could wreck one of the higher-end KMC chains. I run Z8 and X8 KMC chains for their entire life on the factory lube, no added lube, no cleaning, zilch, zero, nothing, thousands of kilometers of zero effort. See a description at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.msg42349#msg42349
and a photo of my chain after 3500km with zero maintenance at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.msg77889#msg77889
and be stunned.
>
Andre Jute
The key is lateral thinking refined by rigorous testing.
>

[Tom Kunich]

Andre, I'm of the mind that since you have a chain cover that protects your chain more or less from the weather that it isn't the factory lube that is doing anything but simply being out of the weather and the terrible effect of that. Anytime you let a chain wear that much, the cogs and rings wear to their limits as well.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 5:26:07 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:14:15 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> > Did a 34 miler yesterday after giving the bike two new tires, a new
> > cassette and a new chain. 10 miles into the ride the new chain began a
> > slight squeal at one location. It is a KMC Z8.3 chain for 8-speed road
> > bikes and I used the missing link that came with it (couldn't pry the
> > old one off anyhow).
> >
> > In the past I always got 250mi out of a factory lube, assuming no rain.
> > Did something change?
> >
> > --
> > Regards, Joerg
> >
> > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> If anyone tells you that the factory lube on the chain is any good they don't know what they're talking about.

Don't know what they're talking about?
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/n4O33tR-z_Y/m/5TFJhQ40uAYJ

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html
"A myth that is difficult to dispel is the story that grease on a new chain, fresh out of the package, is not a lubricant but rather a preservative that must be removed. This piece of bicycling myth and lore thrives despite its illogic."
Jobst's illogic comment fits Tommy perfectly.

[Lou Holtman]

Op vrijdag 3 juni 2022 om 22:14:15 UTC+2 schreef Joerg:

Don’t over think this, just lube your chain. It is not worth the 100 chain lube posts here. KMC probably gave up on 8 speed chains and moved the assembly to the shed in their backyard and forgot something. ;-) or the chain was unlucky to end up on your bike.

Lou

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I like Lou's answer. Just oil or lube the chain. Whether you trust the factory lube or not, just lube it anyway. Its pennies, or fractions of pennies to lube your chain. If in doubt, just do it.

[Roger Merriman]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 5:36:42 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:14:15 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
>>> Did a 34 miler yesterday after giving the bike two new tires, a new
>>> cassette and a new chain. 10 miles into the ride the new chain began a
>>> slight squeal at one location. It is a KMC Z8.3 chain for 8-speed road
>>> bikes and I used the missing link that came with it (couldn't pry the
>>> old one off anyhow).
>>>
>>> In the past I always got 250mi out of a factory lube, assuming no rain.
>>> Did something change?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>>
>> You musta applied your special magic to that KMC chain, Joerg. Kudos to
>> you. I wouldn't have bet before you told us that even you could wreck
>> one of the higher-end KMC chains. I run Z8 and X8 KMC chains for their
>> entire life on the factory lube, no added lube, no cleaning, zilch,
>> zero, nothing, thousands of kilometers of zero effort. See a description at

>> http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topich13.msg42349#msg42349

>> and a photo of my chain after 3500km with zero maintenance at

>> http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topich13.msg77889#msg77889

>> and be stunned.
>
> Andre, I'm of the mind that since you have a chain cover that protects
> your chain more or less from the weather that it isn't the factory lube
> that is doing anything but simply being out of the weather and the
> terrible effect of that. Anytime you let a chain wear that much, the cogs
> and rings wear to their limits as well.
>

Indeed my understanding was that covered chains have huge, lifespans as
well they are clean!

Same goes for other uses where the chain is internal.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Exactly, if you go to the Sheldon Brown site you can find absolute bullshit from Jobst Brandt about chains. He ran a SIX speed and while an excellent mechanical engineer didn't know diddly squat about lubrication which is an entirely different field.

If you were able to keep all of the dirt out of the rollers in a chain the lifespan of the chain is very long and relies on the wear rate of the rollers themselves flaking metal dust into the spaces between the pins and the rollers. The more narrow the chains are the more likely that the roller dust will be thrown out of the pin/roller junction and these chains actually have longer lives than the wider chains.

You have to go to a refinery and actually talk to lubrication engineers to find out about these things. But don't count on people like the stupid five here to know anything about anything.

It bothered me about Andre showing a chain worn completely out - this likewise wears out the important and expensive parts - the cogs and the rings. This is why you always replace the chain when it hits the "showing wear" level on the tool. But since I have been waxing I haven't had those problems yet.

[Andre Jute]

It's not just "a chain cover" that matters. I ran years of tests of chain covers to determine *which kind* works. And within that kind there is only one that I recommend. I published my results elsewhere because I don't see the point of feeding the quarter-wit losers who've wrecked RBT with their vicious spite. See these links:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2233.msg10717#msg10717
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.msg42349#msg42349
>
The point is that I found all other *kinds* of chain covers except the close-hugging kind unsatisfactory.
>
Andre Jute
Lateral thinking and perseverance will see you through when the experts differ.

[Andre Jute]

> Roger Merman
>
Yeah. MTBF for a VW camshaft timing chain is 60,000m. At one stage I had three Citroen SM, one for driving out of my garage, one waiting for the nearest expert to fit a new timing chain, one in France to have an alternative engine fitted (diesel -- would you believe it on a grand touring coupe that cost more than a Rolls... and was better; the diesel SM was faster outa London to Nardo in the boot of Italy than the Turbo Bentley with which I replaced the beautiful and soothing but unreliable SM, plural). The problem with the Maserati engine in the SM was that it was carelessly cut down to a V6 out of the successful V8 engine (I had several of the V8 Maserati and that engine was unbreakable, until the French messed with it) in which there was no space for adjustment of the timing chain: it either worked or it didn't work. -- AJ

[Andre Jute]

Eh? I didn't show "a chain worn completely out". I showed a chain perhaps two thirds worn on my very conservative use, where I routinely throw out chain at 0.5 percent weaand a photo of my chain after 3500km with zero maintenance at 3500km:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.msg77889#msg77889
>
I throw off chains that look unworn because I trust the measuring instrument and because I'm far more interested in not having to bend over the bike to fit a new sprocket and chainring than I am on saving some mickey mouse amount of money on a chain.
>
It is possible that it isn't the KMC factory lube that is responsible for the exceptional life (by comparison to what I got before) of a chain which runs inside a Hebie Chainglider on the factory lube without any additional lube or service, in the sense that anything is possible. But I don't think so. I think the KMC factory lube quality and the close-fitting Hebie Chainglider should share the credit. Lots of lifelong cyclists agree with me.
>
Andre Jute
Speaking from experience.
>

[Tom Kunich]

The point I was trying to make is that you have actually taken steps to positively lengthen chain life. This is not for most sport bike riders but it most certainly applies to tourists. Also I think that the amount of chain wear you were showing with your chain wear measurement tool was too much for the other components. But then I am conservative and these other component wear no matter what you do.

[Tom Kunich]

Car timing chains are in an oil bath with the oil cleaned by the filter continuously. Such a thing on a bicycle would be prohibitively heavy but would give you almost unlimited chain and sprocket life. A cam chain absorbs many horsepower at high RPM whereas you couldn't put one horsepower through a bicycle chain for more than a few seconds at a time.

[Tom Kunich]

It appeared to me that the wear indicator was entirely into the chain and so well that it probably was loose. But photos are difficult to interpret.

[John B.]

Way back when. Most motorcycles had two chain drives, one, the so
called "primary" chain from the engine to the gear box (transmission),
usually enclosed in an "oil bath" chain case, and the second from the
"gear box" to the rear wheel. While replacing the "external" chain was
rather common I can't remember anyone ever changing the primary chain
as they seemed to last the life of the bike.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Tommy boy, there is an engineering defect in your statement that narrow chains have longer lives than wider chains. And that is pressure. And the wear of the rollers that results from this pressure. Wider chains are used on wider cogs. Wider cogs and wider rollers have less pressure per square millimeter. Or however the pressure is measured. More contact area with wider rollers and wider cogs. Simple engineering. Narrower cogs and their narrower chain rollers have more pressure per square millimeter. Assuming the cyclist is pressing on the pedals an equal amount and the same gearing, cog size, is used. Therefore, logically, narrower chains and narrower cogs wear faster than wider. This is engineering 101, intro to engineering. Common sense.

Therefore, the fact Tommy boy is completely wrong makes perfect sense.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Not likely anything in the process changed with the possible exception of a hiccup in their QC process. I like Lou's answer best - don't overthink it. Clean the chain thoroughly and relube then be on your way.

[Joerg]

On 6/4/22 2:53 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 2:00:45 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Op vrijdag 3 juni 2022 om 22:14:15 UTC+2 schreef Joerg:
>>> Did a 34 miler yesterday after giving the bike two new tires, a new
>>> cassette and a new chain. 10 miles into the ride the new chain began a
>>> slight squeal at one location. It is a KMC Z8.3 chain for 8-speed road
>>> bikes and I used the missing link that came with it (couldn't pry the
>>> old one off anyhow).
>>>
>>> In the past I always got 250mi out of a factory lube, assuming no rain.
>>> Did something change?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>> Don’t over think this, just lube your chain. It is not worth the 100 chain lube posts here. KMC probably gave up on 8 speed chains and moved the assembly to the shed in their backyard and forgot something. ;-) or the chain was unlucky to end up on your bike.

Same happened to a friend who has 10- or 11-speed.

>>
>> Lou
>
> I like Lou's answer. Just oil or lube the chain. Whether you trust the factory lube or not, just lube it anyway. Its pennies, or fractions of pennies to lube your chain. If in doubt, just do it.

Sure, lubing it anyhow is not the problem. I was just wondering why it
used to work so well and now suddenly it doesn't. The chain had the same
waxy feel to it as they always do.

[Roger Merriman]

My old commute beastie on 9s has just shy of 50miles on the chain thus far
fine.

Been fairly wet with muggy weather ie wet gritty conditions.

I’ll probably put some on next week or not as case May be wax lube that is.

Roger Merriman

[Joerg]

I use White Lightning Epic Ride as a lube. As far as I remember after a
recommendation in this here newsgroup. It has green wax in it. That
tends to floc out over time so I shake the bottle vigorously to stir up
the wax sediment on the bottom.

[Roger Merriman]

I favour Squirt which works for me, in that it doesn’t melt in the rain
though will not cope for a MTB bog snorkelling, but that’s way out of what
it’s intended for! But generally keeps stuff fairly clean.

Plus I can pick it up from a local bike shop so convenient for myself.

I’d echo posts that said one can overthink this stuff!

Roger Merriman

[Joerg]

In my world this _is_ considered fairly clean:

https://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

My road bike looks similar because I don't always stay on pavement. I
also never turn around when there is a sign "Pavement ends - 200ft".
It's got some bog exposure as well. "Hey, guys, this looks like a
shortcut ... SLOSH

> Plus I can pick it up from a local bike shop so convenient for myself.
>
> I’d echo posts that said one can overthink this stuff!
>

Yeah, and when it wears a little faster, so be it. Bike stuff never
lasts long anyhow. I found a cheap source for cassettes, Microshift from
Taiwan. Much less than the big brands but lasts just as long.

[Roger Merriman]

Doesn’t look too bad, I do tend to brush off the mud on the Gravel/MTB
drivechain. Though both tend to have surface mud, though did clean the
Gravel recently as I was staying overnight in a hotel.

Do you not finding the bike bit rear heavy? For my commute beastie a bar
bag plus rear panniers has made the old MTB commute beastie much better
balanced, clearly no lighter but it feels lot more as the weight is more
even.

>
>> Plus I can pick it up from a local bike shop so convenient for myself.
>>
>> I’d echo posts that said one can overthink this stuff!
>>
>
> Yeah, and when it wears a little faster, so be it. Bike stuff never
> lasts long anyhow. I found a cheap source for cassettes, Microshift from
> Taiwan. Much less than the big brands but lasts just as long.
>

My bikes are mostly 10s so not expensive anyway.

Roger Merriman.

[Joerg]

Ok, yeah, in that case I'd clean it as well.

> Do you not finding the bike bit rear heavy? For my commute beastie a bar
> bag plus rear panniers has made the old MTB commute beastie much better
> balanced, clearly no lighter but it feels lot more as the weight is more
> even.

It's not bad. I just have to give the rear shock 10-20psi more than
before, depending on load. My bikes are heavy, both road bike and MTB
are around 38lbs. Mostly because of tools, a heavy lock, big Li-Ion
battery for the lights and all that. I like to not become stranded if
something breaks way out there and help folks if their stuff breaks. One
guy's jaw dropped when I confirmed that I really do carry a tow rope
(his derailer had pretzeled). The first aid kit wasn't ever needed for
myself (knocking on wood) but it has helped several others.

>>
>>> Plus I can pick it up from a local bike shop so convenient for myself.
>>>
>>> I’d echo posts that said one can overthink this stuff!
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, and when it wears a little faster, so be it. Bike stuff never
>> lasts long anyhow. I found a cheap source for cassettes, Microshift from
>> Taiwan. Much less than the big brands but lasts just as long.
>>
> My bikes are mostly 10s so not expensive anyway.
>

The road bike is 8sp (was 6sp originally) and the MTB is 10sp. It's not
about the money, I just don't like to create much trash and in that
respect my bikes are worse than our cars.

[Roger Merriman]

Possibly not a fair comparison, lot of bikes are leisure/sport ie the kit
is broadly intended for performance vs durability.

My old MTB (commute) it tends to need new chain/cassette once a year.
Probably change disk pads 3x.

Chainring every two years or so. Tires last a touch longer, generally 2/3
years as and when they get too torn up by glass so close to but not over
10k panniers and bags every few years as they do eventually wear, I need
them to be waterproof.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/19/2022 8:27 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> My old MTB (commute) it tends to need new chain/cassette once a year.
> Probably change disk pads 3x.

That's an aspect of the Disk-vs-Rim brake debate I hadn't thought of -
the marketing rational behind brakes that need new pads every few months.

Gillette made a fortune with the philosophy of almost giving away the
razor, to make money on the blades. Computer printer manufacturers have
the same philosophy - cheap printers, expensive ink cartridges. The
money is in the required replacements, and it keeps coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

As for the printer ink (cartridges) working for a printer manufacturer I can assure you that there goes a tremendous amount of R&D effort in developing an ink and making the ink work in the printer engine. The competition determines what price you can ask for the ink because we can't forbid customer to use third party ink in our printer engines. Of coarse Gilette makes the money on their blades. Every Chinese can copy a razor, blades not so. Manufacturing razor blades needs a lot of know how. As for disk brake pads they are a lot simpler and you can get a lot of choice of cheaper third party pads, but I always find that in most cases OEM pads work best.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 6/19/2022 8:27 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> My old MTB (commute) it tends to need new chain/cassette once a year.
>> Probably change disk pads 3x.
>
>
> That's an aspect of the Disk-vs-Rim brake debate I hadn't thought of -
> the marketing rational behind brakes that need new pads every few months.

To be fair I clock up a fair few miles, and my commute is a mix of road/old
cycleways/parks. I get at least 1000 miles in summer maybe 1500/2000 miles.

While yes your Sunday road bike might get more miles out of its pads, my
experience is that MTB/Gravel bikes with rim brakes wear rate is
significantly worse in wet gritty conditions, found road salt remarkably
abrasive and chew though pads (rims) in a very quick order.

In short if dry yes rim pads last but as soon as it’s wet, the wear rate
becomes fast!

>
> Gillette made a fortune with the philosophy of almost giving away the
> razor, to make money on the blades. Computer printer manufacturers have
> the same philosophy - cheap printers, expensive ink cartridges. The
> money is in the required replacements, and it keeps coming.
>

Lot of generic pads out there and quality 3rd party stuff, so that argument
isn’t terribly strong.

Though road shimano stuff doesn’t seem to be 3rd party unless you loose the
fins which personally it’s the whole point as they keep stuff cool and
longer pad life etc.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

My HP color printers absolutely drove me crazy. At one point I put new color cartridges in only to have them fail after less than 20 copies. I bought a Brother black and white.

[John B.]

Ah well, old Foolish Frankie is once again speaking from a position of
ignorance.

The first computer printers I remember used a "ribbon" just like a
typewriter and when the first "ink jet" printers (I think they were
called) were invented we thought that they were a marvelous invention
and I don't remember that the ink was any problem at all.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 15:26:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>My HP color printers absolutely drove me crazy. At one point I put new color cartridges in only to have them fail after less than 20 copies. I bought a Brother black and white.

By coincidence, I have an HP Color Laserjet Pro MFP M477fnw and an HP
Color Laserjet Pro M254fw. I use nothing but the cheapest clone
cartridges from eBay. I haven't had either HP printer "fail" after
any number of copies. The only failure I've seen with these two was
the result of a customer printing on partially used sheets of sticky
labels. The glue melted in the fuser roller assembly making a sticky
mess. I haven't tried to clean it yet.

I'm curious. What model HP printers do you have and what do you mean
by "fail"?

Also, when I closed my office, I dragged home all the Brother printers
and Brother parts. I sold the better Brother printers and currently
use the remaining Brother HL-2280DW and MFC-7380N printers. They're
not the best, but are good enough. Incidentally, it's not a "black
and white" printer, but rather a "monochrome" printer.

I'm also curious which Brother printer you bought.

Incidentally, you did one thing right. You didn't buy an inkjet
printer.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

Yes my first several dot printers used typewrite/calculator
ribbons.
You missed the intermediate step.

When laser printers dropped from $8000 to under $4000 I (and
everyone else it seems) bought one. The HP LaserJet used
copier toner in an expensive cartridge but the cartridges
could be refilled with copier toner, a commodity.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

On 6/19/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:

Historical note here:

https://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/museum/imagingprinting/0018/index.html

[John B.]

I currently have a Canon printer. I went through the usual try this
and try that and found that Canon seemed to work best, at least for my
use, and my current printer is a Canon PIXMA, which has refillable ink
tanks. I buy printer ink in 250 cc bottles and while I don't use a
printer "that much" the current ink bottles are at least a year, and
probably more, old, and still have at least one more "refill"
remaining.

But rather like the brake pads, from another post, printer ink or
brake pads aren't expensive, so why worry? Just change them when
necessary (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 8:44:25 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
> But rather like the brake pads, from another post, printer ink or
> brake pads aren't expensive, so why worry? Just change them when
> necessary (:-)

I'm not worrying, John. I'm just commenting on marketing.

But as I've mentioned before, we once hosted (via Warm Showers) a touring cyclist who
ran out of disc brake pads on one hilly tour. It was quite a problem for him because there
were no replacements where he happened to be.

That's why I advise disc brake users to carry a spare set of pads. Unlike caliper brake shoes,
one can't find compatible disc pads in common stores. Disc users should worry just enough to
take that precaution.

- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Until you have to pay for replacement ink cartridges. My Canon ink jet printer takes cartridges that cost about $25 each. Black and color. $50 total. The 3rd party generic are a little cheaper. But I am willing to pay the little extra to get genuine cartridges. I have paid far more in replacement ink jet cartridges than I paid for the printer 10+ years ago. But the printer works well. Scans PDF great. And its only every few years when I have to pay the $50. So its not too bad. Better than having no printer.




> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

[John B.]

Well, back in the day (:-) some enterprising person, at least here,
found a way to modify printers with ink cartridges to use an external
ink tank which fed the cartridges and as long as you kept the external
"tanks" topped up the cartridges would last for ever. I can't remember
what the mod cost but it was certainly less then $50.

https://tinyurl.com/5twpkh2f
There you go. 380 baht is about US$12.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

With road disk becomes more common and more stable ie most of the shimano
range all use the same pads I’ve simply replaced pads from local bike shops
as I’ve needed.

Pads are overlooked and ie folks don’t check! And with hydraulic will keep
working until it’s down to the metal! And at least with my experience will
last 1000 miles even in mid winter though the mud and slop.

Your techgrouch is showing, at the distances that you’d need to change pads
ie 1000/2000 miles and they don’t disappear overnight but slowly.

Ie collect fit parts as and when you pass a bike shop. Or even order it to
be delivered to somewhere you are staying.

There are horror stories about disks which are all down to either
techgrouch or unfamiliarity with them or both!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

For most you can get cheaper alternatives, my commute bike I feed it Clarks
pads cost about same as cup of coffee! The MTB/Gravel is more expensive
though longer lasting at least in fin form but I don’t clock up so many
miles and am more performance interested with those.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

https://www.amazon.com/bike-brake-pads/b?ie=UTF8&node=3494241
$10??? an hour's pay?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Generally under £5 for a set, so 30 mins at minimum wage.

Though can get sets from no name for not much more! Ie 4 or more sets for
sub £10 though I prefer to play it safe with Clarks which are cheap and
cheerful without being iffy! I have bough sets in the past and they have
been generally uniformly pants, with annoying packs that I can’t store
easily in the tool box!

Roger Merriman.

[AMuzi]

As a counterpoint, yes discs wear pads faster but they're
not all that expensive and easily changed without tools[1]
by the rider in seconds. Your average rider can't seem to
change rim brake pads.

[1]most models

[Lou Holtman]

Free advice from a 'ahum' professional. Inkjet printers are not the best option for a home user that just print now and then. Better IMHO is a laser or LED printer that uses toner instead of ink (different technology). Hmm... that coming from someone that spent years working on printers like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo12GGW3HBk

should be worth something ;-)

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Some do need a Allen key, but yes certainly by far less faff than a rim
brake, and doesn’t require any adjustment as they wear etc.

Plus for MTB/Gravel disk pads last longer on road yes rim brakes last huge
miles but once off road, particularly if wet they wear rapidly. My CX bike
vs Gravel bike, pads lasted few hundred miles once it was wet and gritty vs
at least 1000 if not double that.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 3:11:31 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 6/19/2022 10:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 8:44:25 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >>>
> >>> But rather like the brake pads, from another post, printer ink or
> >>> brake pads aren't expensive, so why worry? Just change them when
> >>> necessary (:-)
> >>
> >> I'm not worrying, John. I'm just commenting on marketing.
> >>
> >> But as I've mentioned before, we once hosted (via Warm Showers) a touring cyclist who
> >> ran out of disc brake pads on one hilly tour. It was quite a problem for him because there
> >> were no replacements where he happened to be.
> >>
> >> That's why I advise disc brake users to carry a spare set of pads.
> >> Unlike caliper brake shoes,
> >> one can't find compatible disc pads in common stores. Disc users should
> >> worry just enough to
> >> take that precaution.
> >>
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >
> > As a counterpoint, yes discs wear pads faster but they're
> > not all that expensive and easily changed without tools[1]
> > by the rider in seconds. Your average rider can't seem to
> > change rim brake pads.
> >
> > [1]most models
> >
> Some do need a Allen key, but yes certainly by far less faff than a rim
> brake, and doesn’t require any adjustment as they wear etc.
>

Hmm.

- take out split pen or security clip and pin (need allen key or flat screw driver),
- remove old pads,
- push back pistons,
- put new pads in,
- install new split pen or reinstall pin and security clip.

It is possible on the road but for most people quite a hassle. Personally I prefer changing disk pads though.


Lou

[Roger Merriman]

I’ve personally never needed to, I occasionally check them and at some
point put new pads in at home. On the commute I have occasionally hit metal
but again still works just not as well and noisy! Again lasts until home
when I can sort it while having a cup of tea!

To be honest far less hassle than changing a inner tube which is much more
likely certainly for gravel/MTB

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

The point is not that it's difficult to change pads (although I've heard
of people having trouble getting hydraulic pistons to retract). The
point is, a rider can't change pads if he doesn't have the proper
replacements; and proper replacements are not nearly as available in the
wild as are caliper brake shoes.

My recommendation is still for those taking trips to carry replacements.
That's based on the very experienced tourist who told me of his serious
problems on a hilly tour. He was surprised at the short life of his
pads, and very surprised to have his brakes go bad mid-tour with no pads
available.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Free advice from a 'ahum' professional. Inkjet printers are not the best option for a home user that just print now and then. Better IMHO is a laser or LED printer that uses toner instead of ink (different technology). Hmm... that coming from someone that spent years working on printers like this:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo12GGW3HBk
>
>should be worth something ;-)
>
>Lou

Your advice is certainly worth something, but I'm not so sure I could
afford the price of such a printer. $64,403.00
<https://www.itsupplies.com/Oce-Colorado-1640-UV-Gel-Printer-by-Canon-p/ocecolorado.htm>
<https://csa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/csa/products/large-format/colorado-uvgel-printers/>
64 inch roll to roll paper. 10 liters in inks. 110 lbs. Impressive,
but not exactly designed for the average home user or home office.
It's made for a production print shop. The UVgel inks sound
impressive.

I've had some experience with various home and small business printers
from 1983 to 2020 fixing computers and some printers (interleaved with
some RF design consulting). Mostly, I was doing repairs. It was
profitable because my customers usually had spare computers available,
but not spare printers. They wanted and were willing to pay for an
immediate fix.

I totally agree with your advice. For the home and small business
environment, laser (toner) printers are far superior in every way to
inkjet printers. I gave up repairing inkjets when the cost of repair
exceeded the cost of replacement, when the mechanical designs seemed
to be centered around inducing premature failures through un-necessary
friction, and when individual parts became difficult to obtain. The
early HP laser printers (LJII, LJIII, LJ4, etc) could easily last
50,000 pages. Clean, replace all the rubber parts and a bit of
tweaking, and they could do another 50,000 pages. Meanwhile, the
typical inkjet might last about 20,000 pages and could not be rebuilt.

I used a spreadsheet to calculate the cost of ownership and operation
for various printers for my customers. Laser printers had a higher
initial cost, but amortized over the expected life of the printer,
resulted in a much cheaper cost per page. This calculation worked
well for the average small business and home office, but not so well
for the local university and county/city offices. Their problem was
that they couldn't afford in house repair and maintenance labor. So,
they would run the laser printers until something went wrong, recycle
the printers, and then buy new laser printers. This is about 1 weeks
accumulation of printers at the local recycling center from the county
(01/31/2019):
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/e-waste/printer-eWaste.jpg>
Most of the laser printers in the pile were 3 to 5 years old and only
needed cleaning. If you want to design a laser printer suitable for
government use, I suggest it includes modular construction, a self
cleaning (vacuuming) feature, and a lock on the toner cartridge door.

A few years before I closed the shop, I realized that customers wanted
disposable laser printers, where the entry cost was sufficiently low
that replacement was an economical alternative to repair. That would
be Brother laser printers. Most of the AIO (all in one) laser
printer/fax/scan/copy machines had the same engines with consistent
design defects across the product line. I decided to concentrate on
repairs involving those defects, since nobody was addressing them.
That worked well until Brother began installing refill protection
chips on their toner cartridges. That raised both the entry cost and
inspired customers to spend a little more money and buy HP instead of
Brother. Eventually, replacement chips became available:
<https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/brother-toner-chip.html>
but customers did not like the inconvenience and uncertainty.

Just one question. Is the UVgel ink colorfast, especially red, when
exposed to UV? Since it's used for outdoor prints, I would assume so.

[Tom Kunich]

i have a Lazerjet Office 6310 All-In-One and by "fail" I mean that it began printing in two or even one color making it worthless as a "color" printer. I have had several others and indeed the color cartridges always came from HP and never lasted very long. I still have a sealed HC95 color cartridge and a Printronix. replacement that I tried that was no better. I finally gave up on these HP color printers after buying several of them that had exactly the same problems. I happen to prefer HP computers and before printers as well. My HP computer is probably the best I've ever had but all of their printers were pretty obviously made in the far east with multiple plastic parts and ink cartridges that fail very shortly after installation. Mind you, ORIGINALLY they did not do this which is why I continued to buy them for so long before giving up on them.

[AMuzi]

+1

[Lou Holtman]

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 5:10:57 PM UTC+2, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman

> Just one question. Is the UVgel ink colorfast, especially red, when
> exposed to UV? Since it's used for outdoor prints, I would assume so.

Yes. As proof our the marketing department use a bus company from Madrid Spain as example that uses our prints on self adhesive vinyl to put on their buses (ads). The buses go through car washes and are exposed to the Madrid sun for at least 6 months (contract time of the ads). Up to then they used prints made with nasty solvents inks.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

> i have a Lazerjet Office 6310 All-In-One and by "fail" I mean that it began printing in two or even one color making it worthless as a "color" printer. I have had several others and indeed the color cartridges always came from HP and never lasted very long. I still have a sealed HC95 color cartridge and a Printronix. replacement that I tried that was no better. I finally gave up on these HP color printers after buying several of them that had exactly the same problems. I happen to prefer HP computers and before printers as well. My HP computer is probably the best I've ever had but all of their printers were pretty obviously made in the far east with multiple plastic parts and ink cartridges that fail very shortly after installation. Mind you, ORIGINALLY they did not do this which is why I continued to buy them for so long before giving up on them.

Yep, clogged nozzles. FYI if you don't print much sometimes half of the ink volume is used to keep the print head 'healthy' meaning the print head spit from time to time in aa waste tray to prevent the nozzle from drying out. Hence my advice get a toner based laser or LED printer.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

They really are, I have bought new pads for my bike from my local shop,
plus a shop in the wilds of the Brecon Beacons even with, the on going
shortages of parts.

How experience with disks was he? I’ve been using them for decades. Like
anything do need to learn how they work and so on, part from anything that
you do need to check the pads for wear as it’s easy with hydraulic for them
to keep working down to the backing plate.

But even so pads should be good for 1000+ miles even worse case I’d expect
road only folks to get significantly more. I normally get 2k from the
Gravel bike.

As to be expected with roadies who are rather conservative lot with
technology, lot of disk brakes ate my homework type stories as folks
disliked change.

Though much less now.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

That sounds to me like the very thing I had problems with. The old original laser printers made with beige plastic did not ever seem to do this but I suppose they have "improvements" to make them cheaper.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 08:33:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>i have a Lazerjet Office 6310 All-In-One

Nope. You probably have an Officejet 6310 which is an inkjet printer,
not a laser printer.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=officejet+6310&tbm=isch>
The Officejet 6310 was first introduced in about 2006.

>and by "fail" I mean that it began printing in two or
>even one color making it worthless as a "color" printer.

Clogged nozzles in the 95 color cartridge. It's a common problem.
There should be a head cleaning cycle buried in the printer driver
settings. Remove the 95 color cart and GENTLY clean the ink nozzles
with warm water. No solvents, no rubbing and no scraping. Also,
clean the gold contacts on the cartridge and in the shuttle. With
luck, the cartridge should be un-clogged in 2 or 3 cleaning cycles.
Yes, this wastes lots of ink.

Also, try to resist cleaning it in your ultrasonic bicycle chain
cleaner. It *might* destroy your ink cartridge. This video covers
the topic fairly well:
"Should we use Ultrasonic Cleaner to Unclog Printheads?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KiksN51Xyw>
If you're really desperate to unclog the cartridge, very hot (not
boiling) water:
"Extreme Unclogging for Canon & HP Printer - Desperate DIY Method We
Used to Save a Printer Cartridge"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCkhJHa4I80>

>I have had several others and indeed the color cartridges always
>came from HP and never lasted very long.

Nice of you to leave off all the numbers and what you trying to print.
The ISO/IEC 24711 standard spec for print ink cartridge page yield is
based on 5% coverage, which is not much. It's about the same as a
page of double spaced text. Some details:
<https://learn-about-supplies.ext.hp.com/measuring-ink-yield>
<https://learn-about-supplies.ext.hp.com/laserjet-toner-page-yield>
The 95 cart is rated at 330 pages:
<https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-95-tri-color-original-ink-cartridge-p-c8766wn-140--1>
The matching black ink 98 cart is rated at 420 pages:
<https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-98-black-original-ink-cartridge-p-c9364wn-140--1>
If you were printing full page color photos, which are about 90%
coverage, you'll be lucky to get 100 pages out of a new cartridge.

How many pages were you expecting to print?

>I still have a sealed HC95 color cartridge and a Printronix. replacement that I tried that was no better. I finally gave up on these HP color printers after buying several of them that had exactly the same problems.

I can't tell if you actually had a problem without numbers.

>I happen to prefer HP computers and before printers as well.

Same here. HP is the type of company that I would do anything to
like. I collect and still repair their early LED calculators:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/calculators/hp-calc/index.html>
Most of my test equipment is from early HP:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/test-equip-mess.jpg>
The earlier HP printers were the best available for the price. I
bought and used many of their early computers. Then, in 1999, came
Carly Fiorina and the purchase of Compaq Computers. The result was
massive outsourcing and a general reduction in quality in both the
personal computer division and the home and SMB printers. I'll stop
ranting here and offer only one anecdote. When I closed my office in
late 2020, I took home a variety of working computers. Among them
were 5 assorted HP desktops, all of which were only 3 to 5 years.
Today, none of these will boot or function properly. They all died
within the last 2 years without ever being plugged in. (No, it's not
the clock battery). I've had similar problems with HP laptops, laser
printers, and scanners. It's now all junk and eWaste.

>My HP computer is probably the best I've ever had but all of
>their printers were pretty obviously made in the far east with
>multiple plastic parts and ink cartridges that fail very shortly
>after installation. Mind you, ORIGINALLY they did not do this
>which is why I continued to buy them for so long before giving
>up on them.

I don't see much of that. What I see bad design, construction, and
quality control. For example, I was stuck with about 40 JetDirect LAN
interface cards for printers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=jetdirect+card&tbm=isch>
The problem was the BGA (ball grid array) was not properly soldered to
the PCB and would exhibit intermittent operation. I reflowed the (low
temp bismuth) solder using a toaster oven:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/repair/BGA%20reflow/index.html>
I was able to repair all but 3 Jetdirect boards. I later repaired
some printer PC boards in the same manner.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Thanks. I'm not very familiar with pigment ink. Most of the inkjet
printers which I had worked with used aqueous dyes that dried using
either absorption in the paper or heating. The red dyes faded rather
quickly in direct sunlight. On stiff surfaces (foam board), I used
clear acrylic to reduce fading.
<https://www.krylon.com/products/uvresistant-clear-coating/>
Pigmented archival inkjet ink is much better, but is rather expensive.

Laser toner is powdered plastic and is very different.
"Types of Printer Ink: Explained"
<https://www.ldproducts.com/blog/paper-and-ink-combinations-know-your-ink-part-2/>
I'm totally unfamiliar with UV cured inks and need to do some remedial
reading.

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, are you saying that the ink cartridges last forever?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 16:12:25 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff, are you saying that the ink cartridges last forever?

I didn't say that, but it's true. With proper maintenance and
cleaning, an inkjet cartridge can last forever. However, the ink
probably will not last more than 300 to 400 pages max.

It's not just the carts that need cleaning. There are the foam sponge
filled sumps under the shuttle and cartridge parking areas that could
need cleaning (of foam replacement). Turn the printer upside down
when the sponges are soaked with ink, and you will have a big mess.

I have an HP Thinkjet 2225A HP-IB printer from 1984. I use it to
print numbers and screen dumps from some of my HP test equipment.
<http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=300>
I refill the cartridge and prime the pump with ink as needed. It just
might last forever.

How many pages were you expecting to print from a single pair of HP
95/98 inkjet cartridges? If you were printing large photos, they
should not be expected to last very long.

Incidentally, one of my customers recently had a hardware failure in
her HP Officejet 4650 AIO printer:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=hp+officejet+4650&tbm=isch>
It was purchased in late 2015 and is in great mechanical condition.
The problem is that the firmware had corrupted itself, probably due to
a fried firmware flash RAM. Reloading the firmware didn't help. I
plan to fix it when I have time.

Meanwhile, I convinced her to buy a new laser printer to replace the
broken inkjet printer. Of course, it had to be another HP printer.
Sigh. I pulled some strings and arranged to have Staples sell me a
LaserJet Pro MFP M29W. They were rather scarce at the time and we had
to wait about 5 weeks for delivery.
<https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laserjet-pro-mfp-m29w-printer>
<https://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetDocument.aspx?docname=c06081040>
It turned out to be a rather nice little printer. Small, simple to
operate, fairly well built, 1000 pages per 48A cartridge, fairly easy
setup on Windoze 10 with the HP Smart App, and reasonably priced (for
an HP). It's also beige, which is an improvement over the previous
Darth Vader demonic black. I think there might be hope for HP
printers in the future.

[John B.]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 17:37:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

What I did, years ago, was to program the computer to print a test
image once each day. the Test Image is simply 8 circles, 4 half
circles, light blue, red, yellow and black and 4 dark blue, red,
yellow and black.

The test pattern is printed on half of an A-4 sheet of paper so I get
4 days to the sheet and the amount of ink is, of course, tiny and
after about 6 months of use with this new Canon I see no noticeable
lowering of the color reservoirs. The black, of course, being used
much more often is down about 1/4 tank.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 12:54:04 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> >
> > My recommendation is still for those taking trips to carry replacements [disc pads].

> > That's based on the very experienced tourist who told me of his serious
> > problems on a hilly tour. He was surprised at the short life of his
> > pads, and very surprised to have his brakes go bad mid-tour with no pads
> > available.
> >
> >
> They really are, I have bought new pads for my bike from my local shop,
> plus a shop in the wilds of the Brecon Beacons even with, the on going
> shortages of parts.

I think that might be very dependent on location. The tour this guy talked about
was west to east across northern Pennsylvania, which means crossing the
Appalachians. I can tell you by experience that there is nothing much there (although
both times I biked across Pennsylvania it was farther south). It's not a place where one
can find a bike shop every 50 miles.

> How experience with disks was he?

I can't say. This may have been his first disc brake bike. He was a very, very experienced
touring cyclist, though. It's worth noting that we did Warm Showers hosting for 15 years or
so. He was the only one who arrived here many hours after dark, which to me indicates experience
and confidence. Oh, and he was a guy who I had met (virtually) in online bike advocacy discussions.

> I’ve been using them for decades. Like
> anything do need to learn how they work and so on, part from anything that
> you do need to check the pads for wear as it’s easy with hydraulic for them
> to keep working down to the backing plate.

I absolutely agree with the idea of learning how mechanical things work and how to work
on them. But we need to realize that the majority of people never do that. I'm sure that Andrew
can regale us with tales of very simple repairs brought into his shop - things that any competent
home mechanic should have been able to do.

I suspect that most cyclists would never expect that disc pads would not last nearly as long as
caliper brake pads. I think the question would not even arise in their minds, unless they'd heard
about it somehow.

> But even so pads should be good for 1000+ miles even worse case I’d expect
> road only folks to get significantly more. I normally get 2k from the
> Gravel bike.

This guy's tour would have been with a full camping load through some very steep mountains.
I suppose that factored heavily in his problem.

But this debate seems strange to me. What's the downside to carrying two spare disc pads on
a trip? Why risk being able to find the right replacements if and when you need them?

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 11:10:57 AM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I've had some experience with various home and small business printers
> from 1983 to 2020 fixing computers and some printers (interleaved with

> some RF design consulting). Mostly, I was doing repairs. ...

I'll just mention, before I retired, my favorite Electronics Repair guy at the university
had a thing for printers. We never talked about laser vs. inkjet or any other technology,
because we had enough to discuss regarding his repairs to the robots I was using.
But he seemed to love printer technology the same way some of us love bicycle
technology. His boss told me he had a fairly large collection of various models.

But I can relate to tales of ink jet failures. I think I have three dead ink jets in my basement
right now. I've kept them because of my fantasies of someday doing something interesting
with the stepper motors, drive components etc. Realistically, it's not likely I will ; too many
interests. But perhaps some grandkid will find them interesting.

- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 12:54:04 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> My recommendation is still for those taking trips to carry replacements [disc pads].
>>> That's based on the very experienced tourist who told me of his serious
>>> problems on a hilly tour. He was surprised at the short life of his
>>> pads, and very surprised to have his brakes go bad mid-tour with no pads
>>> available.
>>>
>>>
>> They really are, I have bought new pads for my bike from my local shop,
>> plus a shop in the wilds of the Brecon Beacons even with, the on going
>> shortages of parts.
>
> I think that might be very dependent on location. The tour this guy talked about
> was west to east across northern Pennsylvania, which means crossing the
> Appalachians. I can tell you by experience that there is nothing much there (although
> both times I biked across Pennsylvania it was farther south). It's not a place where one
> can find a bike shop every 50 miles.
>
>> How experience with disks was he?
>
> I can't say. This may have been his first disc brake bike. He was a very, very experienced
> touring cyclist, though. It's worth noting that we did Warm Showers
> hosting for 15 years or
> so. He was the only one who arrived here many
> hours after dark, which to me indicates experience
> and confidence. Oh, and he was a guy who I had met (virtually) in online
> bike advocacy discussions.
>

Experience unless it’s with disks isn’t useful, cycling in general isn’t a
homogeneous group people are generally experienced in certain areas which
can lead to over estimating there knowledge.

>> I’ve been using them for decades. Like
>> anything do need to learn how they work and so on, part from anything that
>> you do need to check the pads for wear as it’s easy with hydraulic for them
>> to keep working down to the backing plate.
>
> I absolutely agree with the idea of learning how mechanical things work and how to work
> on them. But we need to realize that the majority of people never do
> that. I'm sure that Andrew
> can regale us with tales of very simple repairs brought into his shop -
> things that any competent
> home mechanic should have been able to do.

That sounds more like, lack of checking (experience) than anything else.

>
> I suspect that most cyclists would never expect that disc pads would not
> last nearly as long as
> caliper brake pads. I think the question would not even arise in their
> minds, unless they'd heard
> about it somehow.
>
>> But even so pads should be good for 1000+ miles even worse case I’d expect
>> road only folks to get significantly more. I normally get 2k from the
>> Gravel bike.
>
> This guy's tour would have been with a full camping load through some
> very steep mountains.
> I suppose that factored heavily in his problem.
>

A touring bike even on heavily laden, on steep hills isn’t going to be
pushing the brakes hard, it was and remains MTB that drives that, after all
folks DH etc choose 4 pot for extra grunt.

> But this debate seems strange to me. What's the downside to carrying two
> spare disc pads on
> a trip? Why risk being able to find the right
> replacements if and when you need them?
>

Because at the mileage for pads to wear, ie 1000miles at least. You’d
probably be wise to have few other parts on or at least know where to
acquire them on route.

That they wear isn’t unique to disk pads. The only pads I’ve ever worn in
one ride was rim pads, ie wet gritty MTB rides trash them.

> - Frank Krygowski
>
Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On 6/20/2022 9:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 12:54:04 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> My recommendation is still for those taking trips to carry replacements [disc pads].
>>> That's based on the very experienced tourist who told me of his serious
>>> problems on a hilly tour. He was surprised at the short life of his
>>> pads, and very surprised to have his brakes go bad mid-tour with no pads
>>> available.
>>>
>>>
>> They really are, I have bought new pads for my bike from my local shop,
>> plus a shop in the wilds of the Brecon Beacons even with, the on going
>> shortages of parts.
>
> I think that might be very dependent on location. The tour this guy talked about
> was west to east across northern Pennsylvania, which means crossing the
> Appalachians. I can tell you by experience that there is nothing much there (although
> both times I biked across Pennsylvania it was farther south). It's not a place where one
> can find a bike shop every 50 miles.
>
>> How experience with disks was he?
>
> I can't say. This may have been his first disc brake bike. He was a very, very experienced
> touring cyclist, though. It's worth noting that we did Warm Showers hosting for 15 years or
> so. He was the only one who arrived here many hours after dark, which to me indicates experience
> and confidence. Oh, and he was a guy who I had met (virtually) in online bike advocacy discussions.
>

>> I’ve been using them for decades. Like

>> anything do need to learn how they work and so on, part from anything that

>> you do need to check the pads for wear as it’s easy with hydraulic for them

>> to keep working down to the backing plate.
>
> I absolutely agree with the idea of learning how mechanical things work and how to work
> on them. But we need to realize that the majority of people never do that. I'm sure that Andrew
> can regale us with tales of very simple repairs brought into his shop - things that any competent
> home mechanic should have been able to do.
>
> I suspect that most cyclists would never expect that disc pads would not last nearly as long as
> caliper brake pads. I think the question would not even arise in their minds, unless they'd heard
> about it somehow.
>

>> But even so pads should be good for 1000+ miles even worse case I’d expect

>> road only folks to get significantly more. I normally get 2k from the
>> Gravel bike.
>
> This guy's tour would have been with a full camping load through some very steep mountains.
> I suppose that factored heavily in his problem.
>
> But this debate seems strange to me. What's the downside to carrying two spare disc pads on
> a trip? Why risk being able to find the right replacements if and when you need them?
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

"things that any competent home mechanic should have been
able to do."

Oh, you have no idea.

For entertainment purposes only:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg

[Tom Kunich]

Perhaps you can tell me then why both I and my wife have inkjet printers that are sitting here because when we put in new cartridges from the factory they only last perhaps at the most 50 pages and then need new cartridges? This isn't a single instance. What's more, the one I have was a NEW one I bought in an effort to discover why the old one was acting in that manner?

And why are they now advertising inkjet printers that can carry 6 months of ink? Is that because people are just jumping up and down in satisfaction with the performance of the HP printers?

My Brother black and white has been sitting here now for over 5 years and it prints a page anytime I want. The HP cannot do that and hence it is consigned a place under the table until they develop a cartridge that works for a descent amount of time.

[Tom Kunich]

I've heard of such things but luckily have never run across them. Though the talk of breaking derailleur cables did give me visions of just such a thing. As I said, I have NEVER in my entire cycling career broken an inner cable in use. Though I have broken them when accidentally overtightening them when installing. The latest derailleurs makes that pretty difficult though someone that could do what was in those pictures wouldn't have too difficult a time.

[Lou Holtman]

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 4:46:40 AM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> But this debate seems strange to me. What's the downside to carrying two spare disc pads on
> a trip? Why risk being able to find the right replacements if and when you need them?

For a loaded multi day/week tour it is a no brainer to carry enssential spares, but for your 50-100 km weekend/evening ride it is overdone IMO. Where does it end? Spare tire, spare brake/shift cable, chain, brake pads and that with all the tooling needed?

Lou, two tubes, two CO2 catridges, two tire levers, money/credit card and (smart)phone.

[Frank Krygowski]

As I've said, while I've ridden disc brake bikes, I've never owned one.
Firsthand, I don't know how many miles a heavily loaded bike tourist
gets out of a set of pads in hilly country. All I know is this very
competent tourist thought his brake pads would last the trip and was
shocked when they did not.

But your estimate of "1000 miles at least" sounds really low to me. I
can't think of another component or consumable on a bike with such a
short lifetime. I imagine if someone got just 1000 miles out of a rear
tire, they'd complain mightily. (Well, unless it was a fixie rider
skidding for stopping or for fun.)

If I thought my caliper brake shoes would last only 1000 miles, I'd
carry a spare set even though one can buy a set in many department
stores. I'd certainly do that with disc pads.

You know you'll need them eventually, so again, what's the disadvantage
of buying early and carrying them along if you're taking a trip?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Since I'm using 4 seasons tires on one bike and Michelin Pro's on the other I simply carry one tube and one CO2 cartridge and filler. I haven't been sorry yet and I did get a flat in the middle of nowhere, repair it and returned fine. Though for a while I carried two CO2 cartridges and a flat repair kit.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/21/2022 9:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Perhaps you can tell me then why both I and my wife have inkjet printers that are sitting here because when we put in new cartridges from the factory they only last perhaps at the most 50 pages and then need new cartridges? This isn't a single instance.

I can speculate! :-) I think it's connected with the fact that your
Garmin constantly displays errors unseen by others. And Google doesn't
work for you. And the bike components you buy from China are
incompatible with the other bike components you buy from China. And your
handlebars slip while you ride. And your lawnmower cut off your toe. And
so on, and so on...

I think there's a common source for all those problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/21/2022 10:15 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 4:46:40 AM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> But this debate seems strange to me. What's the downside to carrying two spare disc pads on
>> a trip? Why risk being able to find the right replacements if and when you need them?
>
> For a loaded multi day/week tour it is a no brainer to carry enssential spares, but for your 50-100 km weekend/evening ride it is overdone IMO. Where does it end? Spare tire, spare brake/shift cable, chain, brake pads and that with all the tooling needed?

I agree. When I say "on a trip" I don't mean a trip to the grocery
store. I don't mean on a one-day ride. I mean a multi-day bike tour, or
even a multi-day car vacation with bikes along.

Advantages vs. disadvantages, as usual.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 06:24:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Perhaps you can tell me then why both I and my wife have inkjet printers that are sitting here because when we put in new cartridges from the factory they only last perhaps at the most 50 pages and then need new cartridges?

I'll be glad to tell you. However, I first need some information:
- The number of pages you EXPECT to print from a single cartridge.
- The maker and model numbers of the printer(s) involved.
- What type of document are you and your wife trying to print? Text,
photos, handbills, photographs, etc. Try to approximate the percent
coverage of the printing. Note that the ISO/IEC 24711 specifies the
number of pages printed from an ink cartridge assuming only 5%
coverage.
- Which color ran out of ink first?
- Dye or pigment ink? Archival inks are pigment. Most everything
else for consumer printers is dye.
- Anything unusual, such as using "starter" cartridges, excessive
cleaning cycles, ink tank adapters, printer in direct sunlight, thick
paper (absorbs more ink), legal size paper, etc

>This isn't a single instance. What's more, the one I have was a
>NEW one I bought in an effort to discover why the old one was
>acting in that manner?

That rather suggests that what you were printing might be the culprit.
If I were printing with a color cartridge rated for 400 pages, but
with only 5% coverage, I would expect to get fewer pages with a larger
percentage coverage. For example, an 8.5x11 page is 93.5 sq-inches.
An 8x10 photo would be 80 square inches. Therefore, the coverage is:
80 / 93.5 = 86%
The estimated number of pages printing 8x10 photos would be:
5 / 86 * 400 = 23 pages
If half of your printing was 8x10 color photos, you would print about
50 pages before you ran out of ink.

Incidentally, the same calculation applies to color laser printers,
which also use a 5% coverage specification. If you're using a color
laser printer like it was a printing press, you'll see the same
dramatic reduction in pages printed per toner cartridge.

>And why are they now advertising inkjet printers that can carry 6
>months of ink? Is that because people are just jumping up and
>down in satisfaction with the performance of the HP printers?

I haven't seen such advertisements. My guess(tm) is that they are
Epson EcoTank or Brother INKvestment tank printers. These are home
and office inkjet printers that have very large refillable tanks.
<https://epson.com/ecotank-ink-tank-printers>
<https://www.brother-usa.com/inkvestment-tank>
<https://www.brother-usa.com/inkvestment-tank-product-grid>
I have no clue as to whether the refillable tank scheme is cheaper or
better than ink cartridges. Kodak tried it many years ago and gave
up. Probably about the same cost because the print heads are part of
the printer, not part of the replaceable cartridges. Printing stops
while you clean the nozzles and filters in the tanks. With HP's
replaceable cartridge system, replacing the cartridge usually solves
the clog problem.

You might be thinking of Epson's sales gimmick for EcoTank Pro
business printers:
"Unlimited ink for 2 years".
<https://epson.com/ecotank-pro-ink-tank-printers#form>
Just mail in your empty bottles, receipts and a printed usage report.
Epson will send you replacement ink bottles for 2 years.

>My Brother black and white has been sitting here now for over 5
>years and it prints a page anytime I want. The HP cannot do that
>and hence it is consigned a place under the table until they develop
>a cartridge that works for a descent amount of time.

What model Brother printer? Is it B&W or color? Is it an inkjet or
laser? My guess(tm) is a laser printer because all the inkjet
printers I've used and repaired cannot tolerate sitting unused for
more than about 60 days (often less).

Have you considered joining a neo-Luddite organization?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=neo+luddite+organizations>
You seem to be having serious difficulties dealing with modern
technology. I suspect this is unlikely to change. Instead of
learning to follow instruction, search for answers and ask the right
questions, it might be better for you to join a group that promises to
dispose of the problem by destroying the offending technology.
Although I've never attended any meetings, your endless complaints
about defective products and companies makes me believe that you would
fit in perfectly.

[Tom Kunich]

Who prints color photographs on an inkjet printer with crappy resolution? I printed PC board layouts and color coded schematics. So what exactly leads you to believe that people would buy a color printer to print photographs on instead of simply having photos made in the classic manner that doesn't have granulation in the photos? You really don't make yourself any more likeable by your pranks. Or the invention of inkjets running out of ink after 50 pages. My wife printed sermons and the like and color coded schedules and lyrics for her choir she was director of.

The Brother is a TN630. What does that tell you about it sitting around 5 years and printing anything I send it?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 13:16:25 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Who prints color photographs on an inkjet printer with crappy resolution?

Who are you to determine what someone else is allowed to print?

>I printed PC board layouts and color coded schematics.

Any guess as to the density of those pages? I can do the math for you
if you are unable to handle it.

>So what exactly
>leads you to believe that people would buy a color printer to print
>photographs on instead of simply having photos made in the classic manner
>that doesn't have granulation in the photos?

Who are you to determine how people are allowed to print their own
photographs?

>You really don't make yourself any more likeable by your pranks.

What ever gave you the idea that I want to be liked? By your own
declaration, I'm one of the haters and would expect to be treated
accordingly.

>Or the invention of inkjets running out of ink after 50 pages. My
>wife printed sermons and the like and color coded schedules and
>lyrics for her choir she was director of.

My guess is about 20% density at most. That should give her a print
cartridge life of about:
5/20 * 400 = 100 pages

>The Brother is a TN630.

That's the part number of the toner cartridge for a Brother laser
printer. It's also the part number of the partly filled "starter"
cartridge that the printer vendors like to provide with a new printer.
The TN630 is rated for 1,200 pages. You should be using the TN-660
toner cartridge, which is rated for 2,600 pages.

>What does that tell you about it sitting around 5 years and
>printing anything I send it?

It tells me nothing because you didn't bother providing answers to the
questions I asked. That tells me that you don't really care about
solving your problems. I can fix your printing problems. I can't fix
your obvious inability to deal with technical problems.

I also can't fix your problem with telling the truth. The lack of
model numbers tells me that you don't have any HP color inkjet
printers. The HP OfficJet 6310 is 16 years old and unlikely to be
functional today. Nobody prints PCB board layouts on an inkjet
printer because they don't worth well with transparencies. Schematics
are printed on large format printers, not letter size, unless you
enjoy glueing pages together. You don't have an inkjet printer that
will only print 50 pages per cartridge because you would likely have
returned your newly purchased replacement printer under mfg warranty
or store return policy. You also can't seem to provide the model
numbers. You don't know the difference between a laser printer and an
inkjet printer. You don't know the difference between a printer model
number and a toner cartridge number. I've learned to tolerate liars
on the internet, but you make that very difficult.

If you can't tell the truth, and invent literally everything you
write, then please reconsider my previous advice to embark on a career
in writing fiction. Writing fiction doesn't need to be the truth. It
only needs to be believable and entertaining. I believe you might be
able to manage those.

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 6/21/2022 7:55 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> But this debate seems strange to me. What's the downside to carrying two
>>> spare disc pads on
>>> a trip? Why risk being able to find the right
>>> replacements if and when you need them?
>>>
>> Because at the mileage for pads to wear, ie 1000miles at least. You’d
>> probably be wise to have few other parts on or at least know where to
>> acquire them on route.
>>
>> That they wear isn’t unique to disk pads. The only pads I’ve ever worn in
>> one ride was rim pads, ie wet gritty MTB rides trash them.
>
> As I've said, while I've ridden disc brake bikes, I've never owned one.
> Firsthand, I don't know how many miles a heavily loaded bike tourist
> gets out of a set of pads in hilly country. All I know is this very
> competent tourist thought his brake pads would last the trip and was
> shocked when they did not.

That is a rookie error, essentially not checking wear. And making
assumptions.

Being heavy will not massively reduce lifespan. Lots of trade bikes are
many times heavier. What does is conditions/and use, ie how hard the brakes
are being used and how much grit etc.

Same goes for rim brakes, back in the 90’s I’ve trashed pads (rim) in 5
miles or so, on rides in winter in the hills, on abrasive Gravel/silty type
land ie old workings.

I’ve never managed that with disks but disks keep cleaner.

>
> But your estimate of "1000 miles at least" sounds really low to me. I
> can't think of another component or consumable on a bike with such a
> short lifetime. I imagine if someone got just 1000 miles out of a rear
> tire, they'd complain mightily. (Well, unless it was a fixie rider
> skidding for stopping or for fun.)

My rear tire on the MTB is just passed 1k and is starting to look a bit
ragged, certainly last the summer but potentially might change for winter,
and I’m quite gentle on these things as I generally ride natural (ish)
rather than bike parks.

Gravel bit better generally 1500/2000 miles, both are performance tires so
that’s well within normal, my old MTB with BigApple lasts 8k generally from
looking too slashed and or actually starting to puncture. But they are
utility/touring tires.

>
> If I thought my caliper brake shoes would last only 1000 miles, I'd
> carry a spare set even though one can buy a set in many department
> stores. I'd certainly do that with disc pads.

I clock the miles on Strava (it lists or can each part) and my bikes are
generally fairly consistent with how many miles they do. Or at least did
but both the Gravel and MTB have had new ones recently, and the old beastie
has had the MTB old brakes, and it’s brakes went to a charity.

The commute bike I’d assume should be similar to before so 1000 ish, the
gravel 1500 but it’s only on its 2nd set and they tend to bed in etc. and
the MTB is on its first pads, probably 1000ish it has much harder use, in
that you brake far harder, both new brakes have finned pads which are more
expensive but do seem to last significantly longer.

plus hold on much longer particularly the MTB I was pushing the brakes hard
and where getting hot at times.

Where as on the commute bike yes it’s a heavy lump I regularly travel with
two full panniers and what not. The brakes are well within there capacity.

>
> You know you'll need them eventually, so again, what's the disadvantage
> of buying early and carrying them along if you're taking a trip?
>
>

It’s the kitchen sink how much stuff do you need and want to carry, and
plenty of other parts that will last not much longer I generally find
chains admittedly even my commute is off road to a degree only last 3k, and
so on.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

So you keep your memories via the most expensive means possible. The inbk density of a PCB or a schematic is never more than a couple percent and you have to calculate it?

I am curious, what do you know about PCB's? After all, you only print them to check them and if it looks OK you download it into a PCB photocopier. Exactly why are you pretending to know anything at all about this when you so obviously don't? You're not an engineer, you've never been an engineer and a ham license qualifies you for nothing. The question presupposes you something other than a technician. There is nothing degrading about being a technician so why would you be ashamed of it? Are you one of these people who believe you could have "been a contenda"? From your comments you couldn't have been a "contenda's" third cousin twice removed.

[Tom Kunich]

I could probably get that sort of mileage on road tires but I've had too many failures to chance it. My thoughts are that it is better to lose a little money than a lot of skin

[Roger Merriman]

With all my bikes the be that the MTB so 1000ish for a tire or the commute
beastie 8k or so the tires tend to have tread etc left but have been
torn/slashed etc.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 07:22:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 6/20/2022 9:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 12:54:04 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My recommendation is still for those taking trips to carry replacements [disc pads].
>>>> That's based on the very experienced tourist who told me of his serious
>>>> problems on a hilly tour. He was surprised at the short life of his
>>>> pads, and very surprised to have his brakes go bad mid-tour with no pads
>>>> available.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> They really are, I have bought new pads for my bike from my local shop,
>>> plus a shop in the wilds of the Brecon Beacons even with, the on going
>>> shortages of parts.
>>
>> I think that might be very dependent on location. The tour this guy talked about
>> was west to east across northern Pennsylvania, which means crossing the
>> Appalachians. I can tell you by experience that there is nothing much there (although
>> both times I biked across Pennsylvania it was farther south). It's not a place where one
>> can find a bike shop every 50 miles.
>>
>>> How experience with disks was he?
>>
>> I can't say. This may have been his first disc brake bike. He was a very, very experienced
>> touring cyclist, though. It's worth noting that we did Warm Showers hosting for 15 years or
>> so. He was the only one who arrived here many hours after dark, which to me indicates experience
>> and confidence. Oh, and he was a guy who I had met (virtually) in online bike advocacy discussions.
>>

>>> I’ve been using them for decades. Like

>>> anything do need to learn how they work and so on, part from anything that

>>> you do need to check the pads for wear as it’s easy with hydraulic for them

>>> to keep working down to the backing plate.
>>
>> I absolutely agree with the idea of learning how mechanical things work and how to work
>> on them. But we need to realize that the majority of people never do that. I'm sure that Andrew
>> can regale us with tales of very simple repairs brought into his shop - things that any competent
>> home mechanic should have been able to do.
>>
>> I suspect that most cyclists would never expect that disc pads would not last nearly as long as
>> caliper brake pads. I think the question would not even arise in their minds, unless they'd heard
>> about it somehow.
>>

>>> But even so pads should be good for 1000+ miles even worse case I’d expect

>>> road only folks to get significantly more. I normally get 2k from the
>>> Gravel bike.
>>
>> This guy's tour would have been with a full camping load through some very steep mountains.
>> I suppose that factored heavily in his problem.
>>
>> But this debate seems strange to me. What's the downside to carrying two spare disc pads on
>> a trip? Why risk being able to find the right replacements if and when you need them?
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
>"things that any competent home mechanic should have been
>able to do."
>
>Oh, you have no idea.
>
>For entertainment purposes only:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg

Proof positive that them there many speed bicycles are a failure!!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 14:32:25 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>So you keep your memories via the most expensive means possible. The inbk density of a PCB or a schematic is never more than a couple percent and you have to calculate it?

If possible, I calculate everything. If I can't calculate, I
estimate. If I can't estimate, I make an intelligent guess. None of
these are ideal, but they're much better than your method, which is to
contrive numbers out of thin air simply because you don't know any
other way to generate numbers.

>I am curious, what do you know about PCB's?

<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/PCB-Layout/>
In case you're not familiar with the method, it's called "tape up".
Artwork is prepared using tape and pads at a scale of 4:1. For large
pours, rubylith and a compass cutter is used. This was the way it was
done before computers took over.

>After all, you only print them to check them and if it looks OK you
>download it into a PCB photocopier.

That's odd. I've never heard of a PCB photocopier. Normally, the PCB
tape up or layout, silk screen, solder mask, etc are photographically
reduced by 4x. The final boards were prepared either by etching
copper clad G10/FR4 fiberglass boards, or copper plated. In both
cases, the photo reduced negative was used. Could I trouble you to
find an online photo of a PCB photocopier?

>Exactly why are you pretending to know anything at all about this
>when you so obviously don't?

Exactly how have you determined that I don't know anything about PCB
design? Obviously, my public relations department has failed to
inform you of my background.

>You're not an engineer, you've never been an engineer

<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
Notice that it was autographed by none other than Governor Ronald
Reagan. I'm rather surprised you would forget about that. You've
previously accused me of not being an engineer at least twice in the
past.

>and a ham license qualifies you for nothing.

That's true. The term "amateur radio", as opposed to "professional
radio" comes to mind.

My FCC General Radio Operators License required a rather tricky
written exam:
<https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=2228353>

The test equipment in my home workshop is almost all used for RF.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/lab.jpg>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/test-equip-mess.jpg>
The stuff is old, but all of it works well enough for my needs.

Want to see my poetic license?

Could I trouble you to post some photos of your home bicycle workshop,
so I can determine if you possess the proper tools to build and repair
high end bicycles? Not having web site is not a problem. You are
using Gmail to post to RBT, and therefore can use Google Photos to
setup a shared photo album. Just upload your photos to:
<http://photos.google.com>
and share them (read-only) to everyone:
"Share photos & videos"
<https://support.google.com/photos/answer/6131416>

>The question presupposes you something other than a technician. There
>is nothing degrading about being a technician so why would you be
>ashamed of it?

I suppose that there is also nothing degrading about you being a fool
and a liar.

>Are you one of these people who believe you could have "been a contenda"?
>From your comments you couldn't have been a "contenda's" third cousin
>twice removed.

What's a contenda?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contenda>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:29:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>Just upload your photos to:
><http://photos.google.com>
>and share them (read-only) to everyone:
>"Share photos & videos"
><https://support.google.com/photos/answer/6131416>

Sorry. I truncated the link. How to create a shared album is at:
<https://support.google.com/photos/answer/6131416#zippy=%2Ccreate-a-shared-album>

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, taped PC Board layup hasn't been used for 40 years. Why are you even mentioning that? Modern PC Boards now have wiring so fine that you have to observe it under a microscope. I don't have any ideas of what you think you're talking about but whatever it is is so far from modern technology that one has to believe that you're still making tube amps.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:50:32 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff, taped PC Board layup hasn't been used for 40 years.

That would be 1982. The first IBM PC arrived in 1981. Around 1982, I
was doing mechanical CAD on an Applicon CAD system using a VAX 11-750
mini. In my never humble opinion, computer PCB design wasn't really
viable until the Pentium II was introduced in 1987. It probably
wasn't efficient for production design until after the first EDA
(Electronic Design Automation) tools arrived. That started in the
1970's and was eventually ported to PC's. My first experience was
with Orcad in about 1986.

I posted the PCB on my web pile was originally as an answer to a
question in sci.electronics.design asking about older methods of PCB
layout. It was the last PCB I did on mylar. The date on the drawings
are from 1985. I would have continued using pad and tape for probably
another 10 or so years, except that I switched from RF design to RF
consulting, computer repair, and cleaning up other people's work.

When dealing with a PCB, I used whatever the client wanted or was
currently using. If they had a EDA package, I would learn to use it.
In most cases, there were restrictions on what I could take offsite,
so I couldn't easily work at home. I would post some of my designs,
fixes, and kludges, but I signed multiple NDA's preventing me from
doing so. Although I was tempted, I didn't do much PCB work because
they had people who could do a better job and the company wasn't
paying me to do someone else's job. So, I used the PCB software to
create working drawings, on which I marked my changes, for someone
else to implement.

In case you're actually interested in EDA:
<https://www.eetimes.com/how-it-was-pcb-layout-from-rubylith-to-dot-and-tape-to-cad/>

Incidentally, I settled on KiCAD for almost everything:
<https://www.kicad.org>
except simulation, where I'm addicted to LTspice:
<https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/design-tools-and-calculators/ltspice-simulator.html>
I'm still learning how to use both of these. I should probably spend
more time learning these programs than to lecture you on how to behave
like whatever you claim to be this week.

>Why are you even mentioning that?

Because you asked me:

"I am curious, what do you know about PCB's?"

Are you forgetting your own questions from the previous day?

>Modern PC Boards now have wiring so fine that you have to observe
>it under a microscope.

PCB's have traces, pours, and vias, but not "wires".

>I don't have any ideas of what you think you're talking about

Talking? Yes, that's a problem because I'm writing, not talking.
Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will
not put. (Apologies to Winston Churchill).

>but whatever it is is so far from modern technology that one has
>to believe that you're still making tube amps.

For those who believe, anything you tell them is possible. For those
who are skeptical, will inherit the real world.

Talk to Andre Jute about tube amps. He's still working on them.

There's money in tube amps:
<https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RAATMAIII>
Only $2,700.

Since YOU brought to topic of tubes... My workbench at Pacific Mobile
Communications in 1971. Everything you see used tubes:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Old%20Repeaters/PMC02.jpg>
Six GE Progress Line 460MHz repeaters on top of Santiago Peak. The
radios are all tubes, but the tone panels used transistors:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Old%20Repeaters/Santiago-01.jpg>
This was my ham radio station at my parents house in 1965. Everything
you see used tubes:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Old%20Repeaters/wb6eep-01.jpg>
Good riddance. I know some good tube jokes, but I don't want to
irritate Andre.

[Tom Kunich]

More comedy from the cripple. Tell me what makes you think for one second that the IBM PC had taped up PC Boards? To the cripple, the most advanced high technology company in the world would NEVER use photoplotters. Why they would have a couple of PC Board layup artists taping black tape onto white paper top and bottom with a light table so that you could see through the paper to tell alignment of the through-hole connectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoplotter

Jeff, I simply cannot express my gratitude for the things you post here. You never even heard of a photoplotter that was invented and commercialized in the 1960's and you carry the belief that PC boards are designed with tape on paper.

I'm certain that you can find something else to display your total ignorance more clearly but that one is pretty hard to beat.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:38:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

>Tell me what makes you think for one second that the IBM PC had
>taped up PC Boards?

Read what I wrote, not what you wanted me to write. I wrote about the
time line for computers that were able to do PCB layout. I never
suggested that the IBM 5150 was designed with mylar, tape, and pads.
The IBM PC was introduced in 1981. Computers and software that could
actually do PCB layout arrived about 10 to 15 years later.

>the most advanced high technology company in the world would NEVER
>use photoplotters. Why they would have a couple of PC Board layup
>artists taping black tape onto white paper top and bottom with a
>light table so that you could see through the paper to tell
>alignment of the through-hole connectors.

With mylar, we used registration pins and alignment marks. The pins
were use to align the mylar tape ups.
<https://pcbsupplies.com/registration-pins-burgess-register-pin-12-pk/>
The alignment marks or targets were used to align the negatives.
<https://www.ladyada.net/library/pcb/fiducials.html>
The rest, I have no idea what you're talking about.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoplotter

Amazing. A genuine functional and relevant URL from Tom. Thanks.

Photoplotters are what creates the final step and repeat negatives
used to make PCB's. To do this, they require a computer and program.
The stuff I did was mostly mylar, tape, and pads where no computer was
involved. Later, when I was designing or fixing PCB's on a computer,
the final output was in Gerber format. All I saw were the Gerber
plots that I used to check the PCB for errors. The files went
directly to the PCB house, which made the PCB's. Sometimes, it went
to an assembly house, which made, stuffed, and tested the almost
completed PCB's.

>Jeff, I simply cannot express my gratitude for the things you
>post here.

You can't? Nobody is stopping you. Feel free to express your
gratitude for correcting your chronic errors. I won't complain.

>You never even heard of a photoplotter that was invented and
>commercialized in the 1960's and you carry the belief that PC
>boards are designed with tape on paper.

How do you know what I hear, saw, used, or repaired?

Since you claim that PCB's are made using a photoplotter, could you
explain the process or point me to a URL showing how a photo plotter
might produce a PCB? Hint: Subtractive PCB processes (i.e. chemical
etching) have died with the mylar, tape, and pad layout.

>I'm certain that you can find something else to display your total
>ignorance more clearly but that one is pretty hard to beat.

Impressive. Every sentence you scribbled has been a change of topic.
For example, here are the topic changes you introduced in the current
thread starting with:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/Sb-9-U4I4vs/m/vSr_Q_WaAgAJ>
- You started with you having problems with your color inkjet printer.
- You then switch to HP computers, which said you liked.
- You then declared that I somehow suggested that HP cartridges will
last forever.
- You then announced the you and your wife can only get 50 pages per
ink cartridge. You also introduced your unspecified type and model
Brother printer to the discussion.
- Responding to my repeated questions asking for model numbers, you
announced that you had a TN-630, which is a toner cartridge, not a
printer.
- You then evaded my questions on what you were trying to print and
asked what I knew about PCB's. You also declared that I wasn't really
an engineer.
- You then proclaimed that my answers to your question about what I
knew about PCB's was obsolete by 40 years. That was almost on topic,
except that you appended an unrelated comment about me still making
tube amplifiers.
- Finally, you switched from PCB design to PCB production using
photoplotters.

That's a breathtaking eight sequential changes of topic, all initiated
by you. In between these eight, I tried to answer your questions and
accusations. Judging by the topic drift, I suspect you read few of my
answers to your questions.

Anyone here want to take over my thankless task of correcting Tom's
errors? If you like detective stories, this is for you. However,
this detective story is different because everyone knows that Tom is
lying. The problem is proving it. That involves deductive logic,
observation, psychology, searching the internet, excavating Tom's
older postings, tracking his claims, history, biblical history, and
some light weight arithmetic. If you want, I can help you get started
by initially offering suggestions of what might be wrong with Tom's
latest announcements and amazing facts. Obviously, I'm not being paid
to do all this. I promise that the pride in helping vanquish the evil
liar with the truth, will be adequate compensation in place of any
monetary compensation.

[Sepp Ruf]

Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>
>> Just one question. Is the UVgel ink colorfast, especially red,
>> when exposed to UV? Since it's used for outdoor prints, I would
>> assume so.
>
> Yes. As proof our the marketing department use a bus company from
> Madrid Spain as example that uses our prints on self adhesive vinyl
> to put on their buses (ads). The buses go through car washes and are
> exposed to the Madrid sun for at least 6 months (contract time of the
> ads).

Supposing I wanted to order like a thousand one-dm^2 sized,
high-quality, photo-like stickers made like that, what product range(s)
of UV gel machines should I look for the print shops to use?

> Up to then they used prints made with nasty solvents inks.

Yesterday, I almost fell off the bike gasping when riding a bike path
adjacent to a building construction site in which they were probably
using epoxy. To me, a novel unexpected consequence of taking shortcuts.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

It is amusing watching Jeff eviscerate you at every turn without you even realizing

> Tell me what makes you think for one second that the IBM PC had taped up PC Boards?

He didn't write that, you fucking idiot.

> To the cripple, the most advanced high technology company in the world would NEVER use photoplotters.

They obviously did at sometime, since they used to market then, you fucking idiot

> Why they would have a couple of PC Board layup artists taping black tape onto white paper top and bottom with a light table so that you could see through the paper to tell alignment of the through-hole connectors.

Ah the "good" old days. I was ecstatic when I got my first Mentor Graphics seat in 1997 when I was working at HP and debugging OC-48 SONET test equipment, You know, those things they use to test fiber optic networks? Oh, sorry, that's "light lines" in "tommy world".

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoplotter

Except you never wrote 'photopotter', you fucking idiot. You wrote "photocopier". We could forgive a late septuagenarian mistakenly writing 'photocopier' when they meant 'photoplotter', except that you didn't cop to a mistake when jeff wrote an entire paragraph in response to writing 'photocopier'.

> Jeff, I simply cannot express my gratitude for the things you post here. You never even heard of a photoplotter that was invented and commercialized in the 1960's and you carry the belief that PC boards are designed with tape on paper.

To quote Jeff, "Read what [he] wrote, not what you wanted [him] to write". You do that silly shit to Frank as well. It's annoying and only confirms our conclusions that you're a moron and afool.

> I'm certain that you can find something else to display your total ignorance more clearly but that one is pretty hard to beat.

Looking into the mirror again, sparky?

[Lou Holtman]

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 10:59:18 AM UTC+2, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, June 20, 2022, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >
> >> Just one question. Is the UVgel ink colorfast, especially red,
> >> when exposed to UV? Since it's used for outdoor prints, I would
> >> assume so.
> >
> > Yes. As proof our the marketing department use a bus company from
> > Madrid Spain as example that uses our prints on self adhesive vinyl
> > to put on their buses (ads). The buses go through car washes and are
> > exposed to the Madrid sun for at least 6 months (contract time of the
> > ads).
>
> Supposing I wanted to order like a thousand one-dm^2 sized,
> high-quality, photo-like stickers made like that, what product range(s)
> of UV gel machines should I look for the print shops to use?

You can print them all on a wide format printer like ours and cut them to size afterwards on a digital cutter. That is a common workflow. We have this one at work:

https://www.zund.com/en/cutting-systems/digital-cutting-systems/g3-cutter

Amazing machine.

Lou