Seized quill stem
Graham
steel fork steerer tube.
I have tried:
1. Penetrating oil.
2. Putting a flat steel bar in the drop outs holding that in a vice and
turning the handle bars but that just started to twist the forks.
3. A piece of 2 x 1 timber between the forks up by the crown again held in a
vice and turning the handle bars but no joy.
Graham.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Graham,
Sheldon's list of stuck seat-post tactics suggests ammonia instead of
penetrating oil for aluminum-steel corrosion:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
RD
apply heat melt alloy out of steel tube. Clean up remains, new stem all is
well. Sounds bad, but is easy, works and quick with no damage. Didn't even
damage paint job.
Good luck, all the best.
Regards
<carl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:t2r8n5h5pphkm4aas...@4ax.com...
thirty-six
Lets start with the simple stuff. With the bolt in the stem and
engaged in the expander cone, but not tight, hit the bolt with a
hammer. This releases the cone (or wedge).
Now if the stem does not come lose with simple handling, lay a peice
of leather over the stem on top of which hold a thin steel plate, hit
it with a hammer, the bigger the better. If the stem does not
release, snug up the bolt and cone and turn the bicycle upside down.
Pour in kerosene to fill the steerer tube and leave for a day. Pour
out the kerosene and right the bicycle, re-install wheel. Hammer the
stem and torque loose (appling torque while holding a steel plate and
hammering will be fun to watch). #
You may need to use a 4lb hammer.
AMuzi
>>> Anyone got any tricks for getting a seized aluminium quill stem out of a
>>> steel fork steerer tube.
>>> I have tried:
>>> 1. Penetrating oil.
>>> 2. Putting a flat steel bar in the drop outs holding that in a vice and
>>> turning the handle bars but that just started to twist the forks.
>>> 3. A piece of 2 x 1 timber between the forks up by the crown again held in
>>> a
>>> vice and turning the handle bars but no joy.
> <carl...@comcast.net> wrote
>> Sheldon's list of stuck seat-post tactics suggests ammonia instead of
>> penetrating oil for aluminum-steel corrosion:
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
RD wrote:
> Had this problem myself. If all else fails, a good blow torch lots of heat,
> apply heat melt alloy out of steel tube. Clean up remains, new stem all is
> well. Sounds bad, but is easy, works and quick with no damage. Didn't even
> damage paint job.
Indeed:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
more:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
thirty-six
> On 11 Feb, 20:34, "Graham" <h2gt2g42-micenewgro...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Anyone got any tricks for getting a seized aluminium quill stem out of a
> > steel fork steerer tube.
>
> > I have tried:
>
> > 1. Penetrating oil.
>
> > 2. Putting a flat steel bar in the drop outs holding that in a vice and
> > turning the handle bars but that just started to twist the forks.
>
> > 3. A piece of 2 x 1 timber between the forks up by the crown again held in a
> > vice and turning the handle bars but no joy.
>
> > Graham.
>
> Lets start with the simple stuff. With the bolt in the stem and
> engaged in the expander cone, but not tight, hit the bolt with a
> hammer. This releases the cone (or wedge).
>
> of leather over the stem on top of which hold a thin steel plate, hit
> it with a hammer, the bigger the better. If the stem does not
> release, snug up the bolt and cone and turn the bicycle upside down.
> Pour in kerosene to fill the steerer tube and leave for a day. Pour
> out the kerosene and right the bicycle, re-install wheel. Hammer the
> hammering will be fun to watch). #
>
> You may need to use a 4lb hammer.
iF there is a need to preserve the stem because it is irreplaceable,
you may be able to drop the forks and cut the steerer using a
hacksaw. This will obviously require repairing, so make sure you have
a framebuilder who will do the job first.
Chalo
At the shop day before yesterday, another mechanic and I tried 1. and
3., with the added enhancement of putting the bike upside-down in the
stand, with me sitting and bracing the bars by hand and the other guy
spinning things around with a four-foot piece of 2x4. we made the
stem revolve but not come out; I got sore the next day from the
effort.
The following day, he finally knocked the thing apart with determined
punching and malleting. The headset lower cup popped out along with
the fork, because the steer tube had been twisted into a helical
fluted shape!
My advice is, don't get carried away. Chop off the stem if you have
to, and chalk it up to a lesson in preventive maintenance. Once the
fork is out of the frame, you can soak the steer tube in ammonia, melt
the stem quill out, or ream it out as appropriate.
For what it's worth, steel stems are not as quick to do that.
Chalo
Andre Jute
wrote:
Vinegar is a mild acid that has worked for me in disassembling old
auto parts when WD40 failed. Pour into top of assembly, let stand 24
hours, repeat for bottom. Try force again. A good hefty hammer for a
sudden impact may work better than steadily applied torque.
Heat might also help but a blowtorch ruins the paintwork. One way of
transferring heat is to get a threaded rod from the hardware store,
thread it through, and heat the bit that sticks out each end, clear of
the headset.
Difficult to know which works best because in really stubborn cases
one has already tried everything, and each remedy might contribute a
little something. I swear by the combination of vinegar, heat and
sudden forceful impacts.
Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
AMuzi
You live on an odd planet where stems are more valuable and
less available than forks.
thirty-six
I can get a steerer replaced for less. Simple paint jobs are best for
future repairs and modifications. Here of course is a good reason not
to bother with chrome chainstays on a custom frame. One day I'll
ignore the chroming and get the chainstays on my 'racing' bike
stretched by an inch. I meant replaced but think it may be possible
to just replace the drop outs. Anything on the market other than
using track ends?
Jobst Brandt
> I have tried:
> 1. Penetrating oil.
Not to worry, the stem is held in place by a layer of aluminum oxide
that has expanded the steer tube. Saw off the stem. Renove the fork,
and bore a maximum diameter hole through the stem-stub. Use a Dremel
tool to grind through the aluminum wall on one side and pull out the
stem.
Convert your bicycle to a threadless steertube and be done with it.
Any good frame builder can do this for you. There is a reason for not
using aluminum quill stems although the faithful believe the
threadless steertube is a sham.
Jobst Brandt
Jay Beattie
> >> "Graham" <h2gt2g42-micenewgro...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> Anyone got any tricks for getting a seized aluminium quill stem out of a
> >>> steel fork steerer tube.
> >>> I have tried:
> >>> 1. Penetrating oil.
> >>> 2. Putting a flat steel bar in the drop outs holding that in a vice and
> >>> turning the handle bars but that just started to twist the forks.
> >>> 3. A piece of 2 x 1 timber between the forks up by the crown again held in
> >>> a
> >>> vice and turning the handle bars but no joy.
> >> Sheldon's list of stuck seat-post tactics suggests ammonia instead of
> >> penetrating oil for aluminum-steel corrosion:
> >>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
> RD wrote:
> > Had this problem myself. If all else fails, a good blow torch lots of heat,
> > apply heat melt alloy out of steel tube. Clean up remains, new stem all is
> > well. Sounds bad, but is easy, works and quick with no damage. Didn't even
> > damage paint job.
>
> Indeed:http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
>
> more:http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
>
Seeing those pictures always makes me want to get a stuck seatpost or
stem just so I can wreak some havoc with my torch. -- Jay Beattie.
Jay Beattie
I would recommend saving the steerer and the stem by using a hacksaw
to cut the frame at the top tube/head tube and down tube/ head tube
junctions. Again, have a skilled framebuilder perform any needed
repairs. -- Jay Beattie.
thirty-six
the game is "Simon says", you'll need to change your name.
Tosspot
In the true path of rbt, "This ones really stuck, I may need a bigger
blowtorch..."
sergio
> Heat might also help but a blowtorch ruins the paintwork.
Indeed, but there may well be no need to melt the aluminum inside.
A thermal _shock_ might free it: heat it up and make it cool quickly
by dipping in ice cold water.
The paintwork will be ruined only locally.
Sergio
Pisa
Graham
"sergio" <serv...@df.unipi.it> wrote in message
news:19e3599f-0533-47b3...@o3g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Hi Guys,
Thanks to all who came up with suggestions. I tried several includind
soaking it in lemon juice over night as I did not have any ammonia to hand.
Tried again this morning with a sizeable piece of wood between the forks up
by the crown but had to give that up as it started to bend the forks. I was
surprised how easy steel forks bend. So I had to straighten them again.
Hopefully no permanent weakness induced!!!!
I then stripped off mudguards and front brake and clamped the crown itself
in my vice between two pieces of wood and then levered the handlebars with
some serious force. Eventually by applying the force suddenly the corrosion
cracked, literally. I thought I had broken something!! Then it was a case of
alternating the direction of the force and applying lots of oil and at first
it just creaked and then moved a little further each time until after about
20 minutes it was out leaving me with seriously aching shoulders.
All that to service my headset which I found to have in it a shattered
bearing ball. The roads in the UK are crated with potholes and sufferring
serious surface breakup after the recent prolonged cold spell and snow. They
are destroying my bike. 5 punctures, 2 ruined tyres and a broken headset
bearing ball. Not to mention the damage caused by the grit the local
authorities are spreading on the road to combat the ice. My chain is on its
way out and I am going through brake blocks far faster than I can ever
recall. The joys of winter cycling!!!!!
Everyting is now well greased and back together.
Thanks again.
Graham.
sergio
> Everyting is now well greased and back together.
All's well that ends well.
Now, keep up with the excercise: dismantle, clean and re-grease more
often.
And keep on riding, the ultimate goal of course.
Sergio
Pisa
Jobst Brandt
>>>>> Anyone got any tricks for getting a seized aluminium quill stem
>>>>> out of a steel fork steerer tube.
>>>>> I have tried:
>>>>> 1. Penetrating oil.
>>>>> 2. Putting a flat steel bar in the drop outs holding that in a
>>>>> vice and turning the handle bars but that just started to
>>>>> twist the forks.
>>>>> 3. A piece of 2 x 1 timber between the forks up by the crown
>>>>> again held in a vice and turning the handle bars but no joy.
>>>> Sheldon's list of stuck seat-post tactics suggests ammonia
>>>> instead of penetrating oil for aluminum-steel corrosion:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
>>> Had this problem myself. If all else fails, a good blow torch lots
>>> of heat, apply heat melt alloy out of steel tube. Clean up
>>> remains, new stem all is well. Sounds bad, but is easy, works and
>>> quick with no damage. Didn't even damage paint job.
>> Indeed:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
>> more:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
> In the true path of RBT, "This ones really stuck, I may need a
> bigger blowtorch..."
Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube. As I
said, saw the stem off at the top of the steertube and bore it out.
You have earned the course in threadless steertubes. Do it.
Jobst Brandt
Jobst Brandt
>>> Heat might also help but a blowtorch ruins the paintwork.
>> Indeed, but there may well be no need to melt the aluminum inside.
>> A thermal _shock_ might free it: heat it up and make it cool
>> quickly by dipping in ice cold water. The paintwork will be ruined
>> only locally.
> Thanks to all who came up with suggestions. I tried several
> includind soaking it in lemon juice over night as I did not have any
> ammonia to hand. Tried again this morning with a sizeable piece of
> wood between the forks up by the crown but had to give that up as it
> started to bend the forks. I was surprised how easy steel forks
> bend. So I had to straighten them again. Hopefully no permanent
> weakness induced!!!!
> I then stripped off mudguards and front brake and clamped the crown
> itself in my vice between two pieces of wood and then levered the
> handlebars with some serious force. Eventually by applying the
> force suddenly the corrosion cracked, literally. I thought I had
> broken something!! Then it was a case of alternating the direction
> of the force and applying lots of oil and at first it just creaked
> and then moved a little further each time until after about 20
> minutes it was out leaving me with seriously aching shoulders.
> All that to service my headset which I found to have in it a
> shattered bearing ball. The roads in the UK are crated with
> potholes and sufferring serious surface breakup after the recent
> prolonged cold spell and snow. They are destroying my bike. 5
> punctures, 2 ruined tyres and a broken headset bearing ball. Not to
> mention the damage caused by the grit the local authorities are
> spreading on the road to combat the ice. My chain is on its way out
> and I am going through brake blocks far faster than I can ever
> recall. The joys of winter cycling!!!!!
> Everything is now well greased and back together.
You seem determined to repeat this exercise. Face it; the aluminum
quill stem is dead and should not be exhumed. Get your fork redone
with a threadless steertube.
Jobst Brandt
sergio
> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
You serious, Jobst?
Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
Sergio
Pisa
thirty-six
> On 11 Feb, 22:36, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Heat might also help but a blowtorch ruins the paintwork.
>
> Indeed, but there may well be no need to melt the aluminum inside.
> A thermal _shock_ might free it: heat it up and make it cool quickly
> by dipping in ice cold water.
I believe you may be right. The lower conductivity of the steel will
allow the aluminium stem to shrink away from it when suddenly cooled.
If the temperature was taken high enough to damage paintwork, then oil
should be used as the cooling medium. If the bolt and expander are
removed a torch can be used inside the steerer, venting up through
tthe stem. The only damage would likely be to plastic spacers in the
headset bearings.
thirty-six
Not quite as far fetched as a bicycle cannot be pedalled.
Jobst Brandt
>> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
> You serious, Jobst?
> Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
suggestion on how to fix it? I went through the quill stem failure
with several Cinelli stems and a steel Ritchey stem before the
threadless steertube came along, for which I was glad and have used
ever since with no problems and amazingly greater handlebar stiffness.
The quill stem rocks around from side-to-side above its expander in
the steertube (pumping in fluids) where, in contrast, the threadless
stem is ultimately stiff. A great feeling.
Jobst Brandt
sergio
> Instead of offering rhetorical questions,
As rethorical as you might have read it, it perhaps deserved a better
answer.
how about a positive
> suggestion on how to fix it?
That's exactly what I wrote in another, this time quite positive,
message.
Should I divulgate a picture of a frame that I scorched to free a
similarly stuck component?
Tell you what.
A heat shock also freed a stuck cartridge bottom bracket after two
local competent bike mechanics had not been able to remove it.
They had given up the effort, feeling the risk of twisting the frame
(with the extractor held firm in the vise).
Heat waves can do wonders.
Sergio
Pisa
AMuzi
>> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
sergio wrote:
> You serious, Jobst?
> Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
Well, narrowly, he's right. The aluminum oxide isn't
affected at these temperatures but the aluminum stem core
does expand, shrink or melt effectively.
Jobst notes that the aluminum oxide layer is inert but I
don't think that phenomenon has any practical effect in the
instant case of a stuck stem. One removes the oxide layer in
shards easily with a pick after the stem is out.
Jobst Brandt
>> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
>> suggestion on how to fix it?
> As rhetorical as you might have read it, it perhaps deserved a
> better answer.
> That's exactly what I wrote in another, this time quite positive,
> message.
I didn't see how heating aluminum would make it shrink away from the
steel steertube or how heat would loosen aluminum oxide that had
chemically expanded between the stem and steertube.
> Should I divulgate a picture of a frame that I scorched to free a
> similarly stuck component?
Well, thats nice wording, but I don't see what mechanism loosened the
stem. As I said, I had more than two Cinelli stems bored out of
steertubes, steertubes that had been expanded by the corrosion
expansion of the aluminum stem.
> Tell you what.
> A heat shock also freed a stuck cartridge bottom bracket after two
> local competent bike mechanics had not been able to remove it. They
> had given up the effort, feeling the risk of twisting the frame
> (with the extractor held firm in the vise).
> Heat waves can do wonders.
From my experience that is wishful thinking, rather than fact. I am
not sure how solidly your seized parts were attached.
Jobst Brandt
sergio
> Jobst notes that the aluminum oxide layer is inert but I
> don't think that phenomenon has any practical effect in the
> instant case of a stuck stem.
Pardon me.
The shrinkage or expansion, upon cooling or heating below melting
point, of any (very thin) layer is minimal compared to the dimensional
change of the (relatively massive) components nearby.
Was that the message?
Why should one negate the fact that the adhesion through the oxide
layer gets compromised by the heat shock?
Isn't this some relevant effect?
Sergio
Pisa
sergio
> > Heat waves can do wonders.
> From my experience that is wishful thinking, rather than fact. I am
> not sure how solidly your seized parts were attached.
Not so according to my experience.
For example, I was able to unscrew easily a rather stuck pedal by
heating with the flame of a candle.
This other time I had to free a seatpost.
After struggling with brute force, I tried with the heat: no success.
Then I took the thing over to a retired framebuilder, Gino Vanni, an
old man who happens to be a friend of mine. I asked him to melt the
aluminum out.
Before resorting to the flame, ailing Gino grabbed the saddle that was
still in place and freed the post.
Lesson n.1 for me
After heating up I should have waited until cool, better yet if I had
cooled it with a 'negative' shock.
Sergio
Pisa
thirty-six
> Sergio Servadio wrote:
> >> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
> > You serious, Jobst?
> > Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
>
> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
> suggestion on how to fix it? I went through the quill stem failure
> with several Cinelli stems and a steel Ritchey stem
Any intelligent rider would have got either some paint or oil in there
after the third time. Plugging the bottom of the steerer mitigates
the condensation which causes the corrosion (mixed in with salts,
possilbly from sweating).
thirty-six
Come to think of it, when releasing the screws on an aging car door, I
whacked 'em not only hot, but as they cooled down before they
released. They not only released tyhe bond, but were positively free,
not anywhere representative of the torque applied (without effect
before the heat and cool cycle).
Tosspot
> Frank Leake wrote:
<snip>
>> In the true path of RBT, "This ones really stuck, I may need a
>> bigger blowtorch..."
>
> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube. As I
> said, saw the stem off at the top of the steertube and bore it out.
> You have earned the course in threadless steertubes. Do it.
I'm no engineering type, but I would have thought the expansion wotsit
between the steel outer and aluminum inner would have been a, to coin a
phrase, fuck of a lot. The stuck steerer tubes and seat tubes I've had
usually give way to a bit of heat.
Ben C
> Sergio Servadio wrote:
>
>>> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
>>> suggestion on how to fix it?
>
>> As rhetorical as you might have read it, it perhaps deserved a
>> better answer.
>
>> That's exactly what I wrote in another, this time quite positive,
>> message.
>
> I didn't see how heating aluminum would make it shrink away from the
> steel steertube or how heat would loosen aluminum oxide that had
> chemically expanded between the stem and steertube.
I think the idea is just that things move a bit relative to each other
and that breaks the bond gluing them together, even if you're actually
making the part that's on the inside bigger.
Michael Press
<2bee1d54-c01e-40b4...@f8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
sergio <serv...@df.unipi.it> wrote:
Al2O3.
Melting point: 2072 deg C.
Mostly insoluble.
The Al sits at the bottom of a deep electrochemical trench.
Fe melting point: 1535 deg C.
--
Michael Press
Jobst Brandt
They are not "bonded" together but have an enormous press fit in the
steel steertube from aluminum oxide development. Heating the assembly
is difficult because the only exposed (heatable) part is the aluminum
stem that, when heated, only increases the contact pressure between it
and the steel steertube. I don't think the theoretical solution
includes melting the stem out of place. That would do substantial
damage to the head bearings and head tube.
As I mentioned, the contact force from such a corrosion failure is
enough to bulge the steel steertube at "room temperature". That
effect must also be confronted if the steertube is to be reused.
Jobst Brandt
Jobst Brandt
>>>> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
>>>You serious, Jobst? Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
>> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
>> suggestion on how to fix it? I went through the quill stem failure
>> with several Cinelli stems and a steel Ritchey stem before the
>> threadless steertube came along, for which I was glad and have used
>> ever since with no problems and amazingly greater handlebar
>> stiffness.
> Any intelligent rider would have got either some paint or oil in
> there after the third time. Plugging the bottom of the steerer
> mitigates the condensation which causes the corrosion (mixed in with
> salts, possilbly from sweating).
The failure occurs from rider sweat and rain water that has adequate
access at the upper end of the aluminum stem, even though lock rings
on head bearings were equipped with an O-ring so small that it pumps
when the stem swivels from side to side. It does not come in from the
bottom, although various frame makers offered plugged forks without
any effect believing it came from below. These were a nice gestures,
recognizing the effect, but not its cause or solution.
AMuzi
The wooden plugs of old were supposed to keep a crown/column
crack from killing the rider. In my experience they hold
moisture inside the column anyway.
datakoll
The back and forth out of JB's that'snot what's happening is best
analyzed atomically. Example, rust is dirt that atomically - figure
the equations - occupies more space with the O2 addition to ferrous
structures - and some H20. There's not enough designed space in there
for the extra atoms.
Heating rust crfumblkes a hard dirt structure that seems here as
almost metallic plating before heat and after as a dirt crust,
Now exavtly what the Aluminum/steel is about I don't know but the
reaction is explained as vigorous and invasive: does it crumble with
heat ? The al/steel material formed under my 544 during salty winter
driving was significantly stronger than 'plated ferrous rust'
linseeed mixed with aluminum antiseize lubes, prevents ion exchange
AND ferrous rust.
copper antiseize works but is less sensual on application.
datakoll
every 10 degress hotter - adding atoms to an overcrowded space playing
against the expansion of an outer surface nearest the flame, moving
the outer surface away from the 'dirt' and the inner surface so the
parts are 'freed.'
Graham
"Jobst Brandt" <jbr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4b758ad6$0$1666$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Graham who? wrote:
>
[Snip]
>> Everything is now well greased and back together.
>
> You seem determined to repeat this exercise. Face it; the aluminum
> quill stem is dead and should not be exhumed. Get your fork redone
> with a threadless steertube.
This is the first time in the thirty year history of that bike that this has
happened. If it takes another thirty years before it happens again then I
will be pushing 90. Hopefully I will still be riding it but certainly not in
the crap wheather we have experienced this winter.
I can see your point on flexing/pumping action and I have been doing a lot
of climbing over the winter in preparation for a trip to the Alps so that
could have exagerated the effect.
As to your heat having no effect theory then I would contend that heating
the aluminium stem would cause it to expand significantly vs the steel
steerer tube and highly compress the aluminium oxide. Reversing the process
on rapid cooling of the stem would have the opposite effect. In my
experience aluminium oxide does not show significant elastic properties so I
would expect the bonding of the layer to be significantly weekened allowing
the stem to be loosened. Fortunately I did not have to go this far. On
removal of the stem it was obvious that the build up of oxide was not that
great but sufficient to give me problems.
Graham.
sergio
In my
> experience aluminium oxide does not show significant elastic properties so I
> would expect the bonding of the layer to be significantly weekened allowing
> the stem to be loosened.
Well put: exactly the point.
If there were no 'hysteresis' upon heating and subsequent cooling, all
things remaining the same, it wouldn't move a bit. But, to my
experience, it usually does so.
The same as when you have succeded, just by brute force at room
temperature, to turn the damned thing a little bit. At that point you
are sure you will eventually extract it.
In this case you certainly have not removed any atoms from in there,
but simply displaced adjacent layers. You have not destroyed their
tight packing, nor diminished the pressure in there.
Sergio
Pisa
P.s. Graham, when planning your trip through the Alps consult my
friend Allan Nelson's diaries through his site 'Cycling Before Lycra'.
Quite entertaining and informative, in my opinion.
thirty-six
> linseeed mixed with aluminum antiseize lubes, prevents ion exchange
> AND ferrous rust.
I'll have to put it in my regular toolkit.
thirty-six
> Ben C? wrote:
> >>>> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
> >>>> suggestion on how to fix it?
> >>> As rhetorical as you might have read it, it perhaps deserved a
> >>> better answer.
> >>> That's exactly what I wrote in another, this time quite positive,
> >>> message.
> >> I didn't see how heating aluminum would make it shrink away from
> >> the steel steertube or how heat would loosen aluminum oxide that
> >> had chemically expanded between the stem and steertube.
> > I think the idea is just that things move a bit relative to each
> > other and that breaks the bond gluing them together, even if you're
> > actually making the part that's on the inside bigger.
>
> They are not "bonded" together but have an enormous press fit in the
> steel steertube from aluminum oxide development. Heating the assembly
> is difficult because the only exposed (heatable) part is the aluminum
> stem that, when heated,
No, the inside of the steerer is accessible via the fork crown.
Heating from this direction and applying a drift and a big hammer to
the end of the stem seems the most logical method and explains the
condition of a stem I was given.
thirty-six
> Trevor M. Jeffrey wrote:
> >>>> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
> >>>You serious, Jobst? Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
> >> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
> >> suggestion on how to fix it? I went through the quill stem failure
> >> with several Cinelli stems and a steel Ritchey stem before the
> >> threadless steertube came along, for which I was glad and have used
> >> ever since with no problems and amazingly greater handlebar
> >> stiffness.
> > Any intelligent rider would have got either some paint or oil in
> > there after the third time. Plugging the bottom of the steerer
> > mitigates the condensation which causes the corrosion (mixed in with
> > salts, possilbly from sweating).
>
> The failure occurs from rider sweat
Any salts wether from above or below.
> and rain water that has adequate
> access at the upper end of the aluminum stem, even though lock rings
> on head bearings were equipped with an O-ring so small that it pumps
> when the stem swivels from side to side.
Stop dreaming. The water ingress is by condensation which forms 1/2
hour into your morning ride and when you bring the cold bike indoors
every single time. The way to stop this is to use anodised stems and
paint the inside of the steerer. Filling the gap between stem and
steerer with a grease also helps much. Plugging the steerer helps,
although this must be tight. As a finishing touch, gasket sealant can
be used around the stem to locknut junction. This is not a difficult
problem. The metal must be protected against condensation and LINSEED
OIL will do that every time.
thirty-six
> Jobst Brandt wrote:
> > Trevor M. Jeffrey wrote:
>
> >>>>> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
>
> >>>> You serious, Jobst? Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
>
> >>> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
> >>> with several Cinelli stems and a steel Ritchey stem before the
> >>> threadless steertube came along, for which I was glad and have used
> >>> ever since with no problems and amazingly greater handlebar
> >>> stiffness.
>
> >> Any intelligent rider would have got either some paint or oil in
> >> there after the third time. Plugging the bottom of the steerer
> >> mitigates the condensation which causes the corrosion (mixed in with
> >> salts, possilbly from sweating).
>
> > The failure occurs from rider sweat and rain water that has adequate
> > access at the upper end of the aluminum stem, even though lock rings
> > on head bearings were equipped with an O-ring so small that it pumps
> > when the stem swivels from side to side. It does not come in from the
> > bottom, although various frame makers offered plugged forks without
> > any effect believing it came from below. These were a nice gestures,
> > recognizing the effect, but not its cause or solution.
>
> >>> The quill stem rocks around from side-to-side above its expander in
> >>> the steertube (pumping in fluids) where, in contrast, the
>
> The wooden plugs of old were supposed to keep a crown/column
> crack from killing the rider. In my experience they hold
> moisture inside the column anyway.
That'll be because the split in the stem was not filled allowing
partial ventilation to atmosphere. A worse situation because the
mosture is unable to vent off. Expanding foam will fill all the
steerer and so none is exposed to moisture.
thirty-six
> Everyting is now well greased and back together.
>
Fill the steerer with fill n fix expanding builders foam to prevent
salt water ingress and condensation. Caulk the small gap between stem
and locknut with, for example, gasket compound.
datakoll
wrote:
> "Jobst Brandt" <jbra...@sonic.net> wrote in message
well, no. why would you expect the bonding tube significantly
different ? as on what grounds ?
datakoll
loctite sells a waterpump sealnt works great for this app and Timex
batt replacements.
datakoll
smear it on your nuts
datakoll
particular talent, I found the donor bikes on their way to the
dumpster. All uncared for for unnngh more than ten years: 10 speeds.
Using map gas heat with dry ice after 3 weeks in pentrating oil-
deesill fuel - no loosening effects. Withe one baboon holding the fork
with a tuba4 and the other baboon holding the bars...twisted forks.
datakoll
<noEmailto...@stillnodomainey.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:39:22 -0800 (PST), datakoll
on the Timex ? don't squeeze it on, use a flattened needle. Take the
11 pound enginneer's hammer and a block of 1 white oak...
Frank Krygowski
> > access at the upper end of the aluminum stem, even though lock rings
> > on head bearings were equipped with an O-ring so small that it pumps
> > when the stem swivels from side to side. It does not come in from the
> > bottom, although various frame makers offered plugged forks without
> > any effect believing it came from below. These were a nice gestures,
> > recognizing the effect, but not its cause or solution.
>
> crack from killing the rider. In my experience they hold
> moisture inside the column anyway.
I just thought of a use for those little bags of dessicant silica gel
I've been throwing away.
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
You can't smack a Timex with red oak?
thirty-six
Should have used a persuader.
thirty-six
You still need to seal both ends of the steerer.
thirty-six
wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:19:14 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >Any intelligent rider would have got either some paint or oil in there
> >after the third time. Plugging the bottom of the steerer mitigates
> >the condensation which causes the corrosion (mixed in with salts,
> >possilbly from sweating).
>
> in place. All done.
I know, but I've managed on my own bikes with less because the inside
of my steerers have at been painted/laquered at least partly. I never
inspected the middle section.
Jobst Brandt
>>> Everything is now well greased and back together.
>> You seem determined to repeat this exercise. Face it; the aluminum
>> quill stem is dead and should not be exhumed. Get your fork redone
>> with a threadless steertube.
> This is the first time in the thirty year history of that bike that
> this has happened. If it takes another thirty years before it
> happens again then I will be pushing 90. Hopefully I will still be
> riding it but certainly not in the crap wheather we have experienced
> this winter.
I wouldn't make an issue on how few miles you ride annually. These
stems fail more often than you predict given reasonable mileage for an
active rider, about 10,000 miles per year in variable conditions.
> I can see your point on flexing/pumping action and I have been doing
> a lot of climbing over the winter in preparation for a trip to the
> Alps so that could have exagerated the effect.
> As to your heat having no effect theory then I would contend that heating
> the aluminium stem would cause it to expand significantly vs the steel
> steerer tube and highly compress the aluminium oxide.
The aluminum oxide is not practically compressible. That is why the
steel steertube is expanded by its generation. This has been done
often enough by frame builders that it is a known process.
> Reversing the process on rapid cooling of the stem would have the
> opposite effect. In my experience aluminium oxide does not show
> significant elastic properties so I would expect the bonding of the
> layer to be significantly weekened allowing the stem to be loosened.
> Fortunately I did not have to go this far. On removal of the stem
> it was obvious that the build up of oxide was not that great but
> sufficient to give me problems.
Wishful thinking or insufficient miles to cause a solid failure is the
tenor of this argumentation.
[use spell checker]
Jobst Brandt
thirty-six
prick
AMuzi
thirty-six wrote:
> prick
That's an unusual spelling of "thank you'
!Jones
<h2gt2g42-mi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Anyone got any tricks for getting a seized aluminium quill stem out of a
>steel fork steerer tube.
>
>I have tried:
>
>1. Penetrating oil.
>
>2. Putting a flat steel bar in the drop outs holding that in a vice and
>turning the handle bars but that just started to twist the forks.
>
>3. A piece of 2 x 1 timber between the forks up by the crown again held in a
>vice and turning the handle bars but no joy.
>
>Graham.
I fool with quite a few antique cycles, so I feel your pain.
My favorite tool is an electric heat gun. You'd prefer to heat the
steel; however, it's probably still in the frame. After you get the
quill good and hot, cool it sharply in an ice bath. You may have to
repeat that several times... but heat will eventually work.
Jones
thirty-six
> thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk> considered Sat, 13 Feb 2010
> 02:53:11 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> >On 13 Feb, 00:25, Jobst Brandt <jbra...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >> Ben C? wrote:
> >> >>>> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
> >> >>>> suggestion on how to fix it?
> >> >>> As rhetorical as you might have read it, it perhaps deserved a
> >> >>> better answer.
> >> >>> That's exactly what I wrote in another, this time quite positive,
> >> >>> message.
> >> >> I didn't see how heating aluminum would make it shrink away from
> >> >> the steel steertube or how heat would loosen aluminum oxide that
> >> >> had chemically expanded between the stem and steertube.
> >> > I think the idea is just that things move a bit relative to each
> >> > other and that breaks the bond gluing them together, even if you're
> >> > actually making the part that's on the inside bigger.
>
> >> They are not "bonded" together but have an enormous press fit in the
> >> steel steertube from aluminum oxide development. Heating the assembly
> >> is difficult because the only exposed (heatable) part is the aluminum
> >> stem that, when heated,
>
> >No, the inside of the steerer is accessible via the fork crown.
> >Heating from this direction and applying a drift and a big hammer to
> >the end of the stem seems the most logical method and explains the
> >condition of a stem I was given.
>
> the stem will contract away from the steerer.
> Cold water is fairly good for shock cooling, but dry-ice is not all
> that expensive, and even more effective.
> The oxide in the interface insulates quite well to prevent the whole
> lot cooling at the same rate.
>
I did suggest oil as an aalternative elswhere in this thread.
Andre Jute
> thirty-six wrote:
> > prick
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> That's an unusual spelling of "thank you'
Heh-heh. Trevor is reacting to the despicable habit Jobst has of,
whenever someone gainsays him, reacting by starting to criticize the
person's writing style, spelling etc. Even for an engineer, Jobst has
a writing manner too arid to call a style, and his own spelling and
word choice errors reveal the German roots of the English language
well but is hardly 20th century vernacular, never mind 21st. These
remarks of Jobst's don't reveal so much his belief that he has style
-- those who do display that style and don't need to mention it -- but
his deepest wishful desire to be elegant and witty instead of blunt
and crude like the other engineers.
Andre Jute
Never more brutal than he has to be -- Nelson Mandela
Nah, Jobst won't even notice -- Andre Jute
thirty-six
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:34:04 -0000, in rec.bicycles.tech "Graham"
>
Wow, and most likely have a pretty component at the end to re-use.
I'd still use a hammer and drift inside the steerer.
Andre Jute
Standing with a welder beside Bentley chassis. The guy is already
pissed off because he thinks I'm telling him how to do his job -- I
am, I want cosmetics worth showing and these guys think about the
strength of the joint without regard for the cosmetics unless you
watch them like a hawk. 'And those holes have to line up first,' I
say. This welder takes out a huge WW I soldier's knife and opens the
bayonet point... I cautiously take a couple of steps back and pick up
a half-inch spanner (a hefty article in the Whitworth measure, for you
young guys used to wimpier measures). The welder grins evilly and
says, 'Nah, it's just my persuader.'
Now why wasn't I reassured?
If he'd said 'bodger'...
Andre Jute
Reformed petrol head
Car-free since 1992
Greener than thou!
Andre Jute
I noticed when the jeweller was refitting the screwback to my 100m
watch, he first floated the O-ring in a little flat tray full of some
yellow stuff with very runny consistency. He didn't know how it was
constituted; ordered from Citizen by number. He put the lid back on
after use, so I imagine it might evaporate; it certainly looked thin
enough. -- AJ
!Jones
thirty-six <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>Wow, and most likely have a pretty component at the end to re-use.
>I'd still use a hammer and drift inside the steerer.
I uaually ask: why should I do it the easy way, when, with a little
thought, I can make it *much* more difficult and destroy it in the
process?
Jones
thirty-six
> > > On 13 Feb, 17:10, Jobst Brandt <jbra...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > >> Wishful thinking ... [use spell checker]
> > thirty-six wrote:
> > > prick
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > That's an unusual spelling of "thank you'
>
> Heh-heh. Trevor is reacting to the despicable habit Jobst has of,
> whenever someone gainsays him, reacting by starting to criticize the
> person's writing style, spelling etc. Even for an engineer, Jobst has
> a writing manner too arid to call a style, and his own spelling and
> word choice errors reveal the German roots of the English language
> well but is hardly 20th century vernacular, never mind 21st. These
> remarks of Jobst's don't reveal so much his belief that he has style
> -- those who do display that style and don't need to mention it -- but
> his deepest wishful desire to be elegant and witty instead of blunt
Ah yes, I think it may be his robotic attempt at witticism which makes
me cringe. It's not worth trying to understand him because you dont
ride correctly like he does.
thirty-six
Could use an o-ring smeared with linseed in the locknut.
Andre Jute
> P.s. Graham, when planning your trip through the Alps consult my
> friend Allan Nelson's diaries through his site 'Cycling Before Lycra'.
> Quite entertaining and informative, in my opinion.
Super site, Sergio. http://www.bikeit.eclipse.co.uk/cyclingprelycra/
Back then even regular cyclists clearly didn't have tans -- the sun
didn't shine too often those days. Really enjoyed those old photos.
and the bit about your wooden wheels too. -- Andre Jute
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
YAHYAHYAH seal both ends - so where's the water run out ???? on the
red oak ? white is waterproof ! There's a coupla nice ones off the
DC !-95 rest area. Any unseenable surface is unpainted, pro forma !
Graham
"Jobst Brandt" <jbr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4b76dcf2$0$1587$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Graham who? wrote:
[snip]
>> This is the first time in the thirty year history of that bike that
>> this has happened. If it takes another thirty years before it
>> happens again then I will be pushing 90. Hopefully I will still be
>> riding it but certainly not in the crap wheather we have experienced
>> this winter.
>
> I wouldn't make an issue on how few miles you ride annually.
[snip]
I am not sure how many miles a year you think I do nor do I care but it is
certainly meets your definition of an active rider. I have already done over
1000 miles this year despite the weather.
You simply made an arrogant presumption to suit your argument.
> [use spell checker]
I would sooner spend more time riding than making sure a newsgroup post is
perfect!!!
> Jobst Brandt
Your attitude has be well descibed by others in this and other threads so it
saves me the bother of making an issue of it. I think thirty-six was just
about on the mark.
Graham.
Frank Krygowski
Really? I thought it would just reduce our area's high humidity...
;-)
- Frank Krygowski
thirty-six
Why bother to carry round that. Cap the steerer on a dry day after
heating.
datakoll
packages. moisture is gravoty flowed. eg the MTB has a hole in the BB
bottom. why ? so bacteria and flat worms have a home, and the rider
lunch,
datakoll
<noEmailto...@stillnodomainey.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:18:15 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>
> <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I noticed when the jeweller was refitting the screwback to my 100m
> >watch, he first floated the O-ring in a little flat tray full of some
> >yellow stuff with very runny consistency. He didn't know how it was
> >constituted; ordered from Citizen by number. He put the lid back on
> >after use, so I imagine it might evaporate; it certainly looked thin
> >enough. -- AJ
>
loctite subs for the gasket
thirty-six
wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:07:00 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >Why bother to carry round that. Cap the steerer on a dry day after
> >heating.
>
> Silicone RTV sealer perhaps? With the suggested desiccant in there, it
> might do the job I suppose. Seems like a solution to a problem that
> doesn't exist though.
O-ring and linseed oil. Corroding stems are not something I have
encountered with bikes I have owned from new. I have owned bikes with
seized stems which i have freed and I have assisted friends. There
must still be quill stems corroding in frames, because no magic
manufacturing has changed production practice. If the stem becomes
scuffed, it will corrode with a little salt and repeated deposition of
dew.
thirty-six
not my beef
thirty-six
wrote:
> >watch, he first floated the O-ring in a little flat tray full of some
> >yellow stuff with very runny consistency. He didn't know how it was
> >constituted; ordered from Citizen by number. He put the lid back on
> >after use, so I imagine it might evaporate; it certainly looked thin
> >enough. -- AJ
>
I did have one of there fine watches for a short while (it didn't
suit), I didn't realise they had such good service arrangements.
Does the jungle attention still feature in their warranty?
Frank Krygowski
> On 14 Feb, 22:49, * Still Just Me * <noEmailto...@stillnodomainey.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:07:00 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
> > <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> > >Why bother to carry round that. Cap the steerer on a dry day after
> > >heating.
>
> > How do you propose to seal between the quill and stem at the top?
> > Silicone RTV sealer perhaps? With the suggested desiccant in there, it
> > might do the job I suppose. Seems like a solution to a problem that
> > doesn't exist though.
>
> O-ring and linseed oil.
Nonsense. If you can't do it with beeswax and hemp twine, it's not
worth doing. Have you no sense of style?
- Frank Krygowski
thirty-six
Any natural fibre twine will do with linseed oil and allow re-
adjustment for which I dont think beeswax on its own is likelty to
remain sealed. I think you were probably harking on hemp and tallow.
thirty-six
> * Still Just Me * <noEmailto...@stillnodomainey.com> considered Sun,
> 14 Feb 2010 17:49:12 -0500 the perfect time to write:
>
> >On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:07:00 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
> ><thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>heating.
>
> >Silicone RTV sealer perhaps? With the suggested desiccant in there, it
> >might do the job I suppose. Seems like a solution to a problem that
> >doesn't exist though.
>
> boat could safely be regarded as watertight.
>
> But stripping, cleaning and greasing something like once a year should
> provide an alternative.
Hessian sacking and pork fat?
thirty-six
wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 02:08:21 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Was that the one field assembled without tools in the jungle?
>
> >I did have one of there fine watches for a short while (it didn't
> >suit), I didn't realise they had such good service arrangements.
> >Does the jungle attention still feature in their warranty?
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ydd5fxm
Covers other makes as well? How interesting.
N8N
>
> > >>>>> Heat has no effect on aluminum oxide inside a steel steertube.
>
> > >>>> You serious, Jobst? Isn't this statement a tad too bold?
>
> > >>> Instead of offering rhetorical questions, how about a positive
> > >>> suggestion on how to fix it? Â I went through the quill stem failure
> > >>> with several Cinelli stems and a steel Ritchey stem before the
> > >>> threadless steertube came along, for which I was glad and have used
> > >>> ever since with no problems and amazingly greater handlebar
> > >>> stiffness.
>
> > >> Any intelligent rider would have got either some paint or oil in
> > >> there after the third time. Plugging the bottom of the steerer
> > >> mitigates the condensation which causes the corrosion (mixed in with
> > >> salts, possilbly from sweating).
>
> > > The failure occurs from rider sweat and rain water that has adequate
> > > access at the upper end of the aluminum stem, even though lock rings
> > > on head bearings were equipped with an O-ring so small that it pumps
> > > when the stem swivels from side to side. It does not come in from the
> > > bottom, although various frame makers offered plugged forks without
> > > any effect believing it came from below. These were a nice gestures,
> > > recognizing the effect, but not its cause or solution.
>
> > >>> the steertube (pumping in fluids) where, in contrast, the
> > >>> threadless stem is ultimately stiff. Â A great feeling.
>
> > The wooden plugs of old were supposed to keep a crown/column
> > crack from killing the rider. In my experience they hold
> > moisture inside the column anyway.
>
> partial ventilation to atmosphere. A worse situation because the
> mosture is unable to vent off. Expanding foam will fill all the
> steerer and so none is exposed to moisture.
I'm not certain I like that plan... it seems like a good idea on the
face of it, but Porsche used expanding foam to stiffen/sound deaden
the sail panels on the 914, and that became a known corrosion point on
those cars (along with the structural rocker panels, and also the
suspension "console" under the battery box.) Might have been
different had the 914 bodies been galvanized like the later ones were,
but it seems like the foam makes it *more* likely that corrosion will
occur, not less like you would expect.
In short, I won't be foaming my steer tube due to the above, but with
a front fender, it seems less important to do so in any case. And
yes, my seat tube and stem are both well greased.
nate
thirty-six
It does stop condensation, but if the inside of the tubes weren't
already painted, that is what I would do. Stick a straw onto a spray
canif its a long steerer. I guess just dragging a paint soaked rag
through will do. Heating the metal first does encourage the bonding.