How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

[Sir Ridesalot]

How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?

HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?

I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it?

Cheers

[Duane]

I think antique is usually 100 years or more. Vintage I'm not sure. It's
taken from wine so should really have a year attached. Like a vintage 80
sun tour ... Or at least a period like a vintage 70s ...

And don't forget about retro. I think what we call vintage with bikes is
often retro. Old fashioned and outdated. Lol. Maybe you're looking for
classic like with cars?
--
duane

[Dan O]

On Monday, June 16, 2014 1:51:42 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?
>

No longer in production (?)

> HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?
>

Old enough to have rust on it (?)

(Sorry, I know you may not appreciate my flip response.)

Maybe ask the cabe:

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/forum.php

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, my motorcycle qualified for "historic vehicle" plates once it was
25 years old. One of my cars will meet that qualification next year.
"Historic" isn't quite the same as "antique," but I think one could
justify it as a synonym for "vintage."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

BTW, I'll admit I was shocked the first time I saw a historic plate on a
Pontiac Fiero. I thought "That can't be right!"


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?
>

If it's like with electronic equipment (my main turf) it would be when a
bike becomes rare and sought after, when the prices start noticeably
picking up from garage sale level.

I still ride an early 80's custom road bike. Gazelle frame, Shimano 600
and the usual stuff that was considered top notch back then. Today it
would not be considered vintage but outdated. Friction shifters anyone?
But I keep riding it because it's still in very good condition. I just
put new Gatorksin tires on it and the chain is at 0.8% stretch so it'll
soon need a new one.

I'd buy a new road bike if I was a serious road bike rider but I found
that mountain biking is more my kind of cycling so I invested in a new
Fuji Outland instead.

> HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?
>

When museum directors bang down your door for it :-)

> I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it?
>

Highly doubtful, I'd consider that almost new.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[avag...@gmail.com]

DEFINITIVE list is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Car_Club_of_America

https://www.google.com/#q=AUTOMOBILECOLLECTIORS+CLASSIFICATIONS+VINTAGE+ANTIQUE+CLASSIC+HORSELESS+CARRIAGE

https://www.google.com/#q=COLLECTORS+CLASSIFICATIONS+VINTAGE+ANTIQUE+CLASSIC+bicycles&spell=1

The bicycle tube's insides, the bicycle's perceived value, operates against longevity outside narrow environmental, class/income levels.

There's the old barn in arid country but how would a bicycle get there ?

The old car scene is dominated by V-12's, celebrity associations...Beatty the animal trainer drove Pierce Arrows...OK how many have touched a P-A ?

The old old cars are tin on wood frames. Were tin on...

Fleetwood ? Mac ? Fleetwood PA had a serious hardwood forest. HAD a...

There were no 4 cylinder Curtiss motorcycles but there is an engine or two. Rusted tubes. War recycling.

I am stunned by Leno's electric car.

My 544 Volvo Bruno and I are North America's last surviving 544 couple. Since 1970. Bruno was disassembled refinished 3 times. Now resting in a garage at 375000 miles, waiting for retirement. Damn, I missed the last SP 44's by 4 months.

Forgive me for writing abt that again by I'm impressed by it.

Merely 'collectible' but of interest in design longevity origin and a Lemans class win in stock sedan.

Interesting about bicycles....outstanding simplicity, beauty, the song of the frame, balance, color...isn't tied to age as that impression can be with an 4 wheel vehicle...

With the exception of the Mexican Lincoln....

[avag...@gmail.com]

CLASSIC 1949 Indian


http://images.classiccars.com/preview/142730_10730716_1949_Indian_Motorcycle.jpg

[avag...@gmail.com]

max ! $600

http://astraone.com/wp-content/uploads/hodaka-combat-wombat-15201.jpg

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.nostalgic.net/1951monark-built-firestone-holiday

[Sir Ridesalot]

I tried getting some discussion going here on bicycles instead of politics and other crap. I was sure I posted to Rec.BICYCLES.tech but given the replies on both threads it seems as if RBT is now a motorcycles enthusiasts' newsgroup. Sure doesn't take long for a thread to get highjacked to motorcycles here. 4th reply on this thread.

Cheers

[Dan O]

On Monday, June 16, 2014 6:24:01 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, June 16, 2014 4:51:42 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> > How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?
> >
> > HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?
> >
> > I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it?
>

I think it's what you think that matters. Does it?

> I tried getting some discussion going here on bicycles instead of politics and other crap. I was sure I posted to Rec.BICYCLES.tech but given the replies on both threads it seems as if RBT is now a motorcycles enthusiasts' newsgroup. Sure doesn't take long for a thread to get highjacked to motorcycles here. 4th reply on this thread.
>

http://csiph.com/gallery/Users/DanO/computer1

[Ralph Barone]

When Jay Beattie sniffs his nose at it ;-)

(I'll take your flip and raise you...)

[avag...@gmail.com]

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

what do you understand of bicycle 'styling' ? is there outstanding comment from the 'design' sector ?

clearly, bicycle 'styling' and sometimes design wanders off from form follows function to whimsy in bad taste... or beyond our ken.

but the Indian is pencil in hand as the CLASSIC 1949 Indian is this....yet 'functional' in a l949 journey.

http://goo.gl/DnUs9I

http://bashny.net/t/en/130278

Tora Tora Tora ?

http://goo.gl/yDr9Le

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/16/2014 4:51 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?
>
> HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?

So, returning to bikes: Do you have one that you think may qualify?

One friend of mine has two Ordinaries, dating from the 1880s, I think.
Plus a couple bikes from the 1940s, plus his own childhood bike from the
1950s. (Not to mention a collection of antique cars dating back to 1903.)

My oldest bike is undated, but the guy who gave it to me claimed it was
from the 1930s. It's got a skip-tooth chain, a coaster brake (I forget
what brand) and an amazingly short cockpit length. Upright handlebars,
lots of fork rake, and what's left of the saddle is padded with (I
think) horsehair. I supposed I should someday remove about ten layers
of black paint to see if I can spot a manufacturer's name. (Maybe it
was actually made by Wilbur & Orville Wright?)

I've ridden it a few times for oddball club rides ("Bring your oldest
bike") but it mostly lives in the attic of my garage.

My second oldest is my former commuter, now utility bike, still ridden
several times per week, dating from 1972.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

viewing the collection -


http://goo.gl/IU5jDJ

[John B.]

I believe like beauty, vintage may lie in the eye of the beholder.
Years ago my mother, Japanese wife and I were driving in northern New
England. While my wife was fluent in English she did stumble over
unfamiliar words and when she saw a big sign "ANTIQUES" she asked what
the word meant. My mother said, "Old stuff". My wife asked "How old"
and my mother said, "Oh, maybe a hundred years". My wife said, "Oh!
that's not old".

(The oldest temple in Japan was built in 607 although like my
grandfather's axe I suspect it has a number of heads and hefts over
the years :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.
(gmail=invalid)

[avag...@gmail.com]

John B.

anarchy ! the classifications are set by techno groupings...so we will know what Frank's refurring.

with exceptions for dual cowl phaetons - V-12's - winners of significant events - as CLASSICS.

idea uragonna say all trees have green leaves except for mushrooms is vague beyond intelligence.

a badly done tanker..... ! YACH !

remembering the Giant Subaru...truly a wrok !

[Frank Krygowski]

I once worked with a guy born in Britain. He informed me that over
there, all of American history was covered under "Current Events." ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

The problem is the term "vintage," which (when not referring to wine) includes: "Characterized by excellence, maturity, and enduring appeal; classic" and "Old or outmoded." What I see as old an outmoded, others see as "classic."

I'm not a collector. I go in to my attic/basement and have a panic attack, thinking of all the crap I'm going to have to move, sell or trash. If I don't want to ride it, I don't want to own it. I want less stuff.

With that said, there are some bikes that I regard as classic. Like Potter Stewart said (sort of), "I know it when I see it." Second or third tier Shimano or Campagnolo doesn't cut it for me. Suntour was functional but not classic. Classic French equipment is an oxymoron.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?

In electronics, something is vintage when the manufacturer refuses to
supply replacement parts:
<http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1752>
This is sometimes called "designed obsolescence".

>HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?

There's an intermediate stage called "obsolete". That's when
something prevents using the bicycle in its originally intended
manner. That might be due to the risk of having it fall apart,
defective metallurgy, inadequate mandated safety devices, or
insufficient durability of some components (leaky tubes).

I would think that it would be considered an "antique" when even the
owner would have second thoughts about riding it, or possibly when the
major dealers selling the bicycle are all purveyors of antiques.

>I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it?

Well, if it's an Apple computah, 2001 most certainly does qualify as
both vintage and antique. However, bicycle age at a much slower rate,
and may not be old enough to qualify.

In my never humble opinion, the dealer is who determines when
something is an antique. Antique dealers sell used merchandise for
far higher prices than what one would normally consider its value for
utilitarian purposes. In other words, the value is not in the
bicycles use, but rather it's rarity, oddity, or value as a collectors
item. On a timeline, a typical antique bicycle would show an
initially high value (inflation adjusted), which declines to
worthlessness over some period of years. At some point, the antique
dealers take over from the junk and scrap dealers and sell the bicycle
as an antique, thus raising the selling price and value. I think this
is the date that you're looking for.

There is also a criteria for what might be considered an antique.
Rarity is certainly a requirement. Oddity, uniqueness, and documented
history, are also important as in a bicycle owned by a famous person.
You have only to watch Antique Roadshow on TV to see how it works.

The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers
are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the
prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion,
documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and
increase the selling price. For example, if you owned a bicycle that
was ridden by an obscure racer that won a few odd races, getting
articles published featuring the racer and his "miraculous machine"
might gain sufficient attention to make it desirable owning the
bicycle.

I guess if something fails to sell at auction, it's no longer an
antique, and is reclassified as "junk".



[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Joerg]

avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> http://www.nostalgic.net/1951monark-built-firestone-holiday


Now that's a true vintage bicycle!

The "Golden Spoke" bicycle shop in Placerville (CA) has one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny-farthing#mediaviewer/File:Velocipedist.JPG

[Joerg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?
>
> In electronics, something is vintage when the manufacturer refuses to
> supply replacement parts:
> <http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1752>
> This is sometimes called "designed obsolescence".
>
>> HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?
>
> There's an intermediate stage called "obsolete". That's when
> something prevents using the bicycle in its originally intended
> manner. That might be due to the risk of having it fall apart,
> defective metallurgy, inadequate mandated safety devices, or
> insufficient durability of some components (leaky tubes).
>

Leaky tubes are never an excuse. Case in point: A MTB riding buddy blew
out the rear tube. Shredded, unfixable, but miles out there in the bush.
He didn't have a spare. I had a 29" spare tube but his bike was a 26".
Scratched my head ... what the heck ... put it in, distributed the
excess as best as we could, pumped it up -> worked!

[...]

[avag...@gmail.com]

category


http://goo.gl/FI2Idk

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 11:55:11 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> In my never humble opinion, the dealer is who determines when
>
> something is an antique. Antique dealers sell used merchandise for
>
> far higher prices than what one would normally consider its value for
>
> utilitarian purposes. In other words, the value is not in the
>
> bicycles use, but rather it's rarity, oddity, or value as a collectors
>
> item. On a timeline, a typical antique bicycle would show an
>
> initially high value (inflation adjusted), which declines to
>
> worthlessness over some period of years. At some point, the antique
>
> dealers take over from the junk and scrap dealers and sell the bicycle
>
> as an antique, thus raising the selling price and value. I think this
>
> is the date that you're looking for.
>
>
>
> There is also a criteria for what might be considered an antique.
>
> Rarity is certainly a requirement. Oddity, uniqueness, and documented
>
> history, are also important as in a bicycle owned by a famous person.
>
> You have only to watch Antique Roadshow on TV to see how it works.
>
>
>
> The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers
>
> are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the
>
> prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion,
>
> documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and
>
> increase the selling price.

I mentioned that friend who owns two Ordinaries. Well, in about 1990
(pre WWW) I got curious about converting historic prices to current
dollars. So I dug out inflation data from the Consumer Price Index and
a couple other sources, and wrote a program to compute equivalent prices
for any two years, dating back to something like the 1830s. (Of course,
these days one can just look that up on the Web.)

Anyway, when I told the owner of those bikes, he asked me to put in a
certain price for the year 1886 or so, and convert it to modern dollars.
I gave him the result.

Turns out the price he gave me was the list price for his Ordinary in
the year it was manufactured. And the result I gave him back was the
exact amount he'd paid for the bike in modern times.

What that meant is the modern rarity of the bike plus its historic value
had added no monetary value. When adjusted for inflation, the bike had
not gained any value at all.

That surprised both of us. I think it also dismayed him just a little.

- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

? He has a good investment but who would he sell it to ?

I did that searching for a social/economic level for bicycling in that time period. Same as today.

Tho here are near exceptions with presumed mint un-driven vehicles, a Lancia Zagato surfaces in my mind at over 100, most rare 90 point vehicles are not up to Dow Jones/S&P/gold market returns.

How beat Berkshire ? Or Boing/Apple/Intel/Micro ?

Now take the Shekel....One Shekel invested at 3%....

10 invested in 1970 gives 1.5 today.

[avag...@gmail.com]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzick

category


http://goo.gl/dXjYyv

[Dan O]

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 7:19:42 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 11:55:11 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> > The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers
> > are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the
> > prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion,
> > documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and
> > increase the selling price.
>

> I mentioned that friend who owns two Ordinaries. ... in about 1990
> ... I dug out inflation data from the Consumer Price Index and
> a couple other sources...
>
> ... a

> certain price for the year 1886 or so, and convert it to modern dollars.
>

> ... the list price for his Ordinary in
> the year it was manufactured. ... [translated to] the

> exact amount he'd paid for the bike in modern times.
>
> What that meant is the modern rarity of the bike plus its historic value
> had added no monetary value.

Bzzzzzzzt!

What gave it value when new? Function (mostly), right? Is
that its value today (or 1990)? No, so its modern monetary
value must be (mostly) in some other attributes, such as historic
interest (make a note of that word, "interest").

(You cannot really ascertain its market value based only on what
your friend paid for it, anyway.)

> When adjusted for inflation, the bike had
> not gained any value at all.

Had not appreciated as a 100 year investment, you mean?

You could certainly do worse (or better). But without
some value as a "collectible", it would have lost most
of its market value.

> That surprised both of us.

That's because you both have some interest (see, there's
that word - it imparts "value") in bicycles, and because
you are both cognitively challenged.

> I think it also dismayed him just a little.

Well, it was his money, his values, and his ego.

(Wow, a hundred years of inflation - he must have shelled
out a lot of clams for that old thing :-)

[Dan O]

On Monday, June 16, 2014 1:51:42 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?

As I said earlier, no longer in production (by that I meant,
and as alluded to by someone else, when replacement parts
needed to maintain it are no longer being produced).

> HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?

~IMO, pre- drop bars.

> I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it?

It might. It depends.

[avag...@gmail.com]

It depends.


http://goo.gl/ttyD2a

[AMuzi]

Pre drop bars? That was only a short few years.

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/PETERBOROUGH.jpg

Not so much different from 1890 to last week, including the
moustache and colored tires.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Dan O]

On Friday, June 20, 2014 9:15:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/20/2014 10:56 AM, Dan O wrote:
> > On Monday, June 16, 2014 1:51:42 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

<snip>

> >> HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?
> >
> > ~IMO, pre- drop bars.

<snip>

> Pre drop bars? That was only a short few years.
>
> http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/PETERBOROUGH.jpg

Oh, my - you've got me there! :-)

> Not so much different from 1890 to last week, including the
> moustache and colored tires.

[Cue the Twilight Zone theme... ] :-)

[Duane]

Well it's vintage 2001... lol

[avag...@gmail.com]

Not so much different from 1890 to last week, including the

moustache and colored tires.

____+____++_____x____


less crap on the road !

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, June 16, 2014 9:51:42 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?

On the other hand, here's a serious case for a car reference, as old car collectors have a coherent and comprehensible set of rules. The British for instance distinguish between Veteran, Vintage and Classic. American have different names (I like Antique!) but the idea is the same. Even hotrodders have rules: for a long time (possibly still) a hot rod was a modified car that had started life as a production car with a flat windscreen, which too is a dating method.

Bicyclists could learn a lesson here. Essentially these methods of determining what is worth keeping shortcuts endless arguments. If it was made before a certain date, and it has survived, it is an antique or a vintage model or a classic or whatever. The world wars make useful endstops to periods.

Andre Jute

[Dan O]

On Saturday, June 21, 2014 1:38:52 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

<snip>

" ... what is worth keeping... "

<snip>

[avag...@gmail.com]

mmmmmmmmmmmmm

izza mustache bar ?

here's L. Busby...his stone is missing

http://goo.gl/zxPnkC