Low Energy

[Tom Kunich]

On the chance that I might be getting a low blood count again I've resumed taking Iron and Vitamin D3. This usually takes a couple of weeks to have and effect so we'll see it things improve.

[William Crowell]

So Tom, I'm 74 years old and I thought I was eating a good diet, but I sometimes got feelings of weakness, faint-headedness and high heart rate when I forgot to take my vitamin supplements. I had been assuming it was a lack of vitamin B12, but you know what happens when you assume. I think this thread will prove to be interesting because I sure would like to figure out what vitamin or mineral I was lacking when I don't take my vitamins, so thanks for starting it.

[Lou Holtman]

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 1:13:56 PM UTC+2, William Crowell wrote:
> So Tom, I'm 74 years old and I thought I was eating a good diet, but I sometimes got feelings of weakness, faint-headedness and high heart rate when I forgot to take my vitamin supplements. I had been assuming it was a lack of vitamin B12, but you know what happens when you assume. I think this thread will prove to be interesting because I sure would like to figure out what vitamin or mineral I was lacking when I don't take my vitamins, so thanks for starting it.

Someone on a healthy diet and no pro athlete doesn't need vitamin supplements. That is one big scam.

Lou

[William Crowell]

Maybe so, but if you merely THINK you're eating a healthy diet when in fact maybe your diet is missing one or more vitamins or minerals, and you don't know which one(s) you're missing, then vitamin supplements would remedy the vitamin deficiency, wouldn't it?

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 11:24:46 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

Lou, most people couldn't tell you what a "healthy diet" is. So you suppose it was a large slice of Pacific Salmon and a tomato and onion salad like I had last night?

When I take D3 and Iron for a couple of weeks I begin feeling better. When I eat beets I start feeling better but around here it is difficult to find beets for a price tat doesn't knock you down.

[Frank Krygowski]

I recall my high school biology teacher telling us "Americans have the
most expensive urine in the world. We pay for all those extra vitamins
and they go right through us."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Possible but highly unlikely. If you think you have a lack of vitamin B12, just drink an extra glass of milk or egg, some yoghurt instead of getting an overdose taking a multivitamin pill. You just pissing it away.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Drinking milk does not supply you with much vitamin A or C even if they are added - Pasteurization destroys these vitamins if memory serves. That's why a multivitamin capsule that only contains the daily minimums (such as One-A-Day) are probably better than thinking that you can get enough vitamins from a health diet which tends to be rich only in one vitamin today and another next Thursday.

IF they add these missing vitamins to milk after the pasteurization process isn't this the same thing as taking a pill?

[Lou Holtman]

I stick to my statement, but you can take your multivitamin pills. Fortunately for you for most vitamins is doesn't harm if you overdose (not all BTW) you just piss them away, like your money spent.

Lou

[jbeattie]

And some multi-vitamins may contain herbs, minerals and certain vitamins that interfere with common drugs. People need to read the labels.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Miles]

This is probably uncommon, but there are some special mechanisms in the body for absorbing B12.
A small minority of people can't absorb it adequately. My grandfather had to have B12 injections
for the last decade or so of his life. Of course, pills wouldn't have helped him, but it wasn't
a poor diet that was responsible.

-F

[Lou Holtman]

He went to see a doctor before and his blood tested, no?

Lou

[John B.]

Yes, but of course the argument is that "we NEED those vitamins",
although strangely people living in more primitive circumstances don't
seem to require any vitamins other then what is obtained in their
normal diet.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[William Crowell]

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 10:55:14 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 2:37:40 AM UTC+2, Frank Miles wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 14:20:38 -0700, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 8:34:37 PM UTC+2, William Crowell wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 11:24:46 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 1:13:56 PM UTC+2, William Crowell wrote:
> > >> > > So Tom, I'm 74 years old and I thought I was eating a good diet, but I sometimes got feelings of weakness, faint-headedness and high heart rate when I forgot to take my vitamin supplements. I had been assuming it was a lack of vitamin B12, but you know what happens when you assume. I think this thread will prove to be interesting because I sure would like to figure out what vitamin or mineral I was lacking when I don't take my vitamins, so thanks for starting it.
> > >> > Someone on a healthy diet and no pro athlete doesn't need vitamin supplements. That is one big scam.
> > >> >
> > >> > Lou
> > >> Maybe so, but if you merely THINK you're eating a healthy diet when in fact maybe your diet is missing one or more vitamins or minerals, and you don't know which one(s) you're missing, then vitamin supplements would remedy the vitamin deficiency, wouldn't it?
> > >
> > > Possible but highly unlikely. If you think you have a lack of vitamin B12, just drink an extra glass of milk or egg, some yoghurt instead of getting an overdose taking a multivitamin pill. You just pissing it away.
> > >
> > > Lou

> He went to see a doctor before and his blood tested, no?
>
> Lou

Lou, you gotta be kidding! Do you know what happens when you go to a doctor complaining of low energy? They don't just do a blood test: In order to cover his rear end, the doctor will send you out for $10K worth of tests and lab work. Nobody can afford this, and if you charge it to your health insurance you are just driving up medical costs for everybody. I don't think your attitude is terribly realistic, and that you are being overly-argumentative.

[Lou Holtman]

I was responding to Frank Miles who was telling us a story of his grandfather having a medical issue that needed vitamin B12 shots. I am from The Netherlands and if I go to my doctor complaining about low energy I don't get B12 shots just like that. He first ask me if I eat healthy/enough dairy products. If this is the case and my complaints persist he will order a blood test. This is covered by my health insurance without asking and will definitely not be worth 10K. I know that the medical system in the US is all fucked up. I couldn't care less if people take vitamin pills like M&M's, I'm only telling that in 95% of the cases this is unnecessary. My energy was a bit low today, maybe it had to do with the fact that I rode my bike hard for three days on a row. Instead of running to my doctor or worry I will rest the next two days and do some reading or so.


Lou

[William Crowell]

Lou, you are right that the U.S. medical system is fucked up, but then again people from other countries keep coming here for treatment.

Medical insurance is a curse on the system. It's great if you have plenty of money and can afford good insurance, but everybody else is priced out of the market because the insured patient has no incentive to question the propriety or the amount of the bill; on the contrary, the insured patient pressures his carrier to pay the bill without questioning it.

I also suspect that, through taxes, you are paying more than you think for your medical care. I stopped believing in the mythical free lunch a long time ago.

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, I recently read yet another book that pointed out the scam of
agriculture. Sources keep pointing out archeological evidence that when
mankind switched from hunter-gatherer existence to agriculture,
nutrition quality actually dropped. Hunter-gatherers had much more
varied diets, so they naturally got every nutrient they needed. And they
worked fewer hours per week!

Yumm! I see a squirrel outside my window. I'll be right back...

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 6:02:38 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> Lou, you are right that the U.S. medical system is fucked up, but then again people from other countries keep coming here for treatment.
>
> Medical insurance is a curse on the system. It's great if you have plenty of money and can afford good insurance, but everybody else is priced out of the market because the insured patient has no incentive to question the propriety or the amount of the bill; on the contrary, the insured patient pressures his carrier to pay the bill without questioning it.
>

> I also suspect that, through taxes, you are paying more than you think for your medical care. I Bstopped believing in the mythical free lunch a long time ago.

Aren't you on Medicare? Rethink the free lunch part because your Medicare benefit will far exceed your paid Medicare taxes. If you're on an Advantage plan, the capitation rate for Medicare C/D varies between $800/mo to $1,600/mo (Nome, Alaska). Try paying that out of pocket. Yes, you can thank me and current wage earners.


-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/11/2021 9:02 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> Lou, you are right that the U.S. medical system is fucked up, but then again people from other countries keep coming here for treatment.

Oh please! There are nearly three times as many Americans seeking health
care abroad as there are foreigners coming here for treatment. And
nearly half of those coming to the U.S. for treatment come from the
Caribbean, which is a far, far different place than Netherlands,
Britain, France, Germany, etc.

> Medical insurance is a curse on the system. It's great if you have plenty of money and can afford good insurance, but everybody else is priced out of the market because the insured patient has no incentive to question the propriety or the amount of the bill; on the contrary, the insured patient pressures his carrier to pay the bill without questioning it.

I'll agree that _private_ medical insurance, as implemented in the U.S.,
is a curse. The system is hugely inefficient, with back-and-forth
debates and lawsuits over what should be covered and what should not.
Prices are hidden from customers, so shopping around and negotiations
are impossible. Armies of business school dropout droids have job
descriptions reading "Deny claims whenever possible." And stockholders
benefit, while CEOs rake in astonishing salaries and benefits.

These are some reasons why American health care is the most expensive in
the world, yet has results far worse than so many other countries.

> I also suspect that, through taxes, you are paying more than you think for your medical care. I stopped believing in the mythical free lunch a long time ago.

Have you ever looked at any actual data on this issue?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

William, don’t assume that your circumstances are universal. If I
complained to my doctor about low energy, he would order some blood tests
and lab work which would end up costing me nothing except for parking fees.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 6:02:38 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:

Without that fucked up US medical system most medical advances would not occur. You would still be taking aspirin and going to bed for the flu rather than taking a vaccine.

[Tom Kunich]

You can find article written all of the time by people that are so uninformed that they are merely making marks on paper for money.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, will you please STFU? How many years do you pay into medicare before you ever use it for the first time. Then most people purchase back up insurance so that medicare is not carrying the full load and neither are you. You continue making your communist propaganda statements such as Social Security not being paid for after that SOB Obama and his Congress spent the entire trust fund. This is the sort of thing brain dead people do.

[Tom Kunich]

Snivel, snivel, snivel - insurance is expensive so I will damn it. But I will drive a car with insurance 3 times the cost.

[jbeattie]

Look it up before spouting alt right nonsense. Read this (which you wont): https://www.urban.org/research/publication/social-security-medicare-lifetime-benefits-taxes-2020/view/full_report Also read how Coverage C is funded:https://www.medicarefaq.com/faqs/how-is-medicare-funded/ You're a welfare slag supported by current wage-earners. Get over it.

And also go back to school to learn how the SSI trust fund works. It holds US debt and is always "spent," but notwithstanding the fifty-million times this has been explained to you, you keep running off at the mouth about that evil black satan Obama spending the trust fund. Wake up.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

+1
The Original Sin of SS was by FDR[1] but no administration
is unstained. It's a clusterf**k. Medicare is just whipped
cream on poop.


[1] abetted by Stalin's man in the White House, Harry
Hopkins who is credited with the critical 'bright idea'.
When FDR despaired of ever selling his ridiculous Social
Security plan even to a Democrat Congress, let alone the
American citizenry, it was Hopkins who said, "Let's call it
insurance! No one understands insurance." And so it was.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

So let's see: It's well known that our medical expenses are huge and our
health outcomes are worse than comparable countries.

Are you saying it's because we develop the most whiz-bang medicines and
treatments? And they get to use them at our expense?

I don't think that's the reason for our greater costs and worse
outcomes. But if it were true, it seems like a bad defense of the U.S.
system. Why should we bear the cost burden? Shouldn't things be changed
so other countries pay instead of us?

You should work on that, Tom. Time for another sign on a stick.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/11/2021 12:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Snivel, snivel, snivel - insurance is expensive so I will damn it. But I will drive a car with insurance 3 times the cost.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Tom. But really, we're tired of your
complaints about money.

Perhaps you need a cheaper car? Or hey, go car free. Ride your bike.
Take the bus.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

No matter how many times it is explained to you, you want to believe that you understand it when you clearly don't. At the time SS was enacted, the age at which you could draw it was 65 years old. But the average age of death of men was 52 and of women it was 57. So this built up a very rapid surplus fund that was NOT drawn on. SS really wasn't much effected until the late 50's when antibiotics came into widespread use and vaccines were developed. But I'm sure you know this but have a need to lie about it because Democrats are unable to face the truth of anything.

Social Security was not "spent". It was invested in government bonds that paid interest. There was a LARGE fund until Obama spent it. With your complete blessing.

Social Security was a planned retirement system whereas Medicare was some moronic ass's idea of how to get more votes.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, until the 1980's medical expenses were not "huge" Most Americans never saw a doctor over the course of their entire lives except for the yearly visit to the GP who really had nothing he could do with any serious conditions save to tell you about them.

[Tom Kunich]

What you have a large need of is an understanding of sarcasm. You might be surprised what people are actually saying to and about you.

[jbeattie]

Dear dope: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4a1.html#income Note escalating balance of trust fund. Wake up and do the research.

> Social Security was a planned retirement system whereas Medicare was some moronic ass's idea of how to get more votes.

That moronic ass -- LBJ -- saved your moronic ass. You couldn't afford the premium for private health insurance -- not with your preexisting condition and undoubtedly extensive anti-epileptic/anti-psychotic drug regimen. You complain a lot about welfare and communism, yet you are a poster child, comrade. Embrace it. Hug all the illegals paying into the system and getting nothing out.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yep. Then Reagan got elected. It's all his fault.

.
.
.

:-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

No one should be surprised that neither you nor frank is bright enough to know what the hell you're reading with your ssa "stats". This is why you'll end up broke and in poverty. Frank no doubt would be broke and homeless without his inheritances and the small university retirement benefits and most of all his 100% benefits policy from the university.

[John B.]

In comparison, I made my quarterly visit to my Cardiologist today. For
a blood test, 3 months of medicine and the doctor's fee the total cost
was $138.31 at today's exchange rate.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 20:57:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

Well Good Old Frank seems to get along O.K. with whatever it is that
he's got while our boy Tommy whines about the cost of groceries...

Tell us again about who's got it and who doesn't.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

Seven years ago my daughter broke her arm falling off a horse. She required
surgery to pin the bone back together. Total cost $38 - for parking at the
hospital.

[sms]

On 7/12/2021 8:21 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:

<snip>

> Seven years ago my daughter broke her arm falling off a horse. She required
> surgery to pin the bone back together. Total cost $38 - for parking at the
> hospital.

Two years ago we were in Austria and my son needed an albuterol inhaler,
nothing serious but some wheezing.

We needed a prescription for one, a U.S. prescription wouldn't work, so
we went to a hospital ER in Melk. They warned us that without insurance
we'd have to pay for the visit, but our insurance would reimburse us
anyway. He really just needed a prescription, they could see he was
wheezing, but they gave him an extensive evaluation. The bill was about
$130. An ER visit like that in the U.S., without insurance, would be
well over $1000. I didn't bother to submit the bill to our insurance
company. They would have deducted $50 for an ER copay, so for $50 it
wasn't worth it.

[jbeattie]

That is virtually unheard of, and the price of no co-pays or deductibles is a massive premium. Your employer must be very generous. I buy my own insurance and have done so for the last 27 years, and I have to choose between deductibles/co-pays/out of pocket maximums and premium cost. It's a guess at the future, and no matter what choice I make, it is very expensive.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Amazingly, I think it was in Melk that we ran up a roughly similar bill
for a similar visit. Is there some sort of Melk Vortex that sucks in
ailing cyclists?

As I mentioned, we took home the receipts and documentation, all in
Deutsch. Our American insurance company refused to cover it, claiming it
was impossible to translate. In those days before Google Translate, I
decided fighting it wasn't worth the battle. I just chalked it up as a
vacation expense.

That's health care in monolingual America!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:21:45 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:

Here parking is free. Emergency treatment if you cannot pay for it is free.

[Ralph Barone]

Jay, my hospital was located north of the 49th parallel.

[jbeattie]

I forgot you were one of those Can-Coms from BC. When my son was five or six, we got one of those Aquabuses to Granville Island, and we were all alone -- so the operator let my son drive -- or simulate driving-like activities. https://tinyurl.com/ff94rmrv It was a hoot. We were going to commandeer the boat and liberate the oppressed people of Canada, but instead we decided to get lunch on the island. https://granvilleisland.com/ My firm represents ICBC in Oregon, and I used to go up to Vancouver pretty regularly years ago -- not so much any more. I remember being upset when the airlines switched from letting you fly with a driver's license to requiring a passport. Now you can use one of those enhanced driver's license, or so I'm told.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Just out of curiosity Jay, is there some problem with your passport?

[Frank Krygowski]

My wife had to renew her driver's license not too long after those "Real
ID" changes. What would have been the usual 15 minute wait in the
license bureau turned into a long reading and research project - or
maybe just search project, as in "where did we file the documents they
wanted?"

Ultimately I realized we could still get an airline flight with ordinary
ID papers plus our passport. We haven't flown since, but that's what
we'll do.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

No, why? Always having to produce your passport raises the chances of losing it, which can be expensive and inconvenient, particularly if you need to get home. In the old days of showing your DL, you would just open your wallet, flash your license, and you were good to go to Canada. From PDX, its just a puddle jumper flight, and you would walk out side and up a set of stairs into the plane.

This was also before TSA and 9/11, and after October 1, I'm going to have to use my passport anyway or spend the money on a Real I.D., because my Oregon DL isn't good enough for TSA -- even for domestic flights, and I have TSA pre-check number and a TWIC federal identification card, which is necessary to get into sea ports and onboard ships for work. It's getting ridiculous, but all of these identification cards are a nice revenue option for TSA and State Department and local DMVs.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 7/12/2021 9:25 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> That is virtually unheard of, and the price of no co-pays or deductibles is a massive premium. Your employer must be very generous. I buy my own insurance and have done so for the last 27 years, and I have to choose between deductibles/co-pays/out of pocket maximums and premium cost. It's a guess at the future, and no matter what choice I make, it is very expensive.

True, but co-pays for things like broken arms are different than co-pays
for hospital stays. I have Kaiser. I had a cast on my wrist once and the
total co-pay for two casts and the initial doctor visit, was $60 ($20 x
3). If I had gone to the ER it would have been $70 ($50 for the ER + $20
for the second cast in orthopedics). And we are not on the top tier
plan, we are on the mid-tier.

[sms]

On 7/12/2021 3:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> No, why? Always having to produce your passport raises the chances of losing it, which can be expensive and inconvenient, particularly if you need to get home. In the old days of showing your DL, you would just open your wallet, flash your license, and you were good to go to Canada.

Well for land-crossings into Mexico and Canada you can pay a little
extra for a passport card, but it doesn't work if you're flying in.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, proof of citizenship is either a birth certificate or a passport. Proof of address is a tax bill. What is long and hard about this? Certainly I would have expected you to have traveled overseas often enough that you would have a passport. I had to renew mine just to take a cruise ship down to Mexico during Obama.

[Tom Kunich]

Always having to pay for things with your credit card always increases the chances of losing it. When was the last time you lost your credit card? Please don't invent problems that do not exist.

[jbeattie]

When was the last time you traveled with a passport? It doesn't fit in your wallet. And if you lose a credit card, you cancel it and use your other credit card or some electronic payment method -- or your wife's credit card. Losing a single credit card is basically the least of my worries when travelling abroad. You lose your passport and you have to waste a day or two at a consulate or embassy and some cheesy passport photo place -- and then another day waiting for the passport. I've never lost mine, but I've listened to stories from people who have, and its a nightmare.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

3 years ago when I took that cruise to Mexico. You couldn't get on the ship without it.

I have a credit card and a debit card. That's it. It takes about 8 days to get a new credit card and is an absolute pain in the ass.

My point being that you can lose anything and if you lose the NUMBER of your credit card from some guy looking over your shoulder you don't even know it until it is too late. I have had to get new credit cards 8 times in the last 10 years. I finally got Bit Defender and haven't had any problems since. Screw Norton or any of those others.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/13/2021 1:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>>...I realized we could still get an airline flight with ordinary

>> ID papers plus our passport. We haven't flown since, but that's what
>> we'll do.
>
> Frank, proof of citizenship is either a birth certificate or a passport. Proof of address is a tax bill. What is long and hard about this?

Tom, what is hard is explaining it to you!

See https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

> Certainly I would have expected you to have traveled overseas often enough that you would have a passport.

Of course I have a passport. I've had one since the mid-1970s.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, did you even read that? You don't have to have ALL of those things. You only need to prove your ID with any one of them. All new licenses are "Real ID" compliant. I think that the only additional thing is to have your thumbprint taken when you renew your license.

[jbeattie]

I've lost credit cards and gotten replacements with virtually no effort apart from a phone call -- sometimes in less than two days. You need a better bank. Yes, you can lose anything, but I can return home without a credit card. I can't return home without a passport. Floating around on some cruise ship to Mexico is different from having to produce your passport as you go through various European countries, bags in hand trying to make a flight or a train (England/France). Not that it is a super-high risk, but it is a risk unlike losing anything else in terms of personal identification. Next worse would be losing the iPhone with all the pictures of passports, e-tickets/boarding passes, itinerary, etc.,

-- Jay Beattie.

[Ted Heise]

> > > > > onboard ships for work. It's getting ridiculous, but all

> in terms of personal identification...

The hassle of replacement is an order of magnitude greater with
passports. This is even more the case if the passport has viable
visas in it. I'm thinking in particular of my China visa. To get
one of these, the passport has to be presented at an embassy and
even with a service it takes a week or so out of your possession
to get done. Ugh.

Last time I got one, it was good for 10 years. That passport has
since expired, but I will carry it next time I go to China just
for that visa.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[sms]

On 7/13/2021 11:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> I've lost credit cards and gotten replacements with virtually no effort apart from a phone call -- sometimes in less than two days. You need a better bank. Yes, you can lose anything, but I can return home without a credit card. I can't return home without a passport. Floating around on some cruise ship to Mexico is different from having to produce your passport as you go through various European countries, bags in hand trying to make a flight or a train (England/France). Not that it is a super-high risk, but it is a risk unlike losing anything else in terms of personal identification. Next worse would be losing the iPhone with all the pictures of passports, e-tickets/boarding passes, itinerary, etc.,

Fortunately there's little need to use a physical credit card anymore
(except at a few stores like Home Depot or Lowe's). If you're concerned
about someone reading your card number you can scrape it off since no
one ever looks at the printed card number anyway. The Apple Mastercard
doesn't even have the number, expiration, or CVV printed on the card,
it's just not necessary.

The U.S. is finally catching up with the rest of the world with mobile
payments. My last trip to Europe, in 2019, I think I used a physical
card only once, nearly everyone pays with their phone.

The real danger of credit card use is using it online and handing it to
someone at a restaurant. Online, I always use either a virtual credit
card number or use PayPal.

[Tom Kunich]

Buying stuff from Amazon on-line is dangerous to your credit card numbers. Amazon does NOT tell you that you are buying something from a Chinese company

[Frank Krygowski]

No, all new licenses are certainly NOT "Real ID" compliant. My wife had
the choice and chose not to bother with the paperwork.

From https://upgradedpoints.com/travel/real-id-act/
"While all states are issuing REAL IDs, you can still get a non-REAL ID
license as well."

Tom, you've reached the point where more than half of your claims are
wrong. You'd do better by flipping a coin.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

A question.

Your reference says
"must show valid identification at the airport checkpoint in order to
travel"

Does that mean that you cannot fly within the U.S. without some sort
of identification?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Absolutely.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:48:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski

The land of the free ??
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Nope that ended a very long time ago.

For most of my life one might walk into an airport, find a
flight and pay cash, as I have many times. Now it's all
'Your papers, please', 'stand over there', 'empty your
poskets', 'don't do that' and so on. I have not been inside
an airport for twenty years and most probably never will again.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Lou Holtman]

+1. You forgot 'take off your shoes' WTF. It is like cattle transport to the slaughter house.

Lou

[AMuzi]

Yes, probably true soon enough.

I'm currently reading the account of nine French &
Nederlands women who escaped Ravnesbruck together in 1945.
These things start small but they don't stay small.

[sms]

On 7/13/2021 5:32 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Does that mean that you cannot fly within the U.S. without some sort
> of identification?

Yes. Actually this started happening not for security reasons but
because airlines didn't want passengers selling their tickets to others
(or travel agents buying lower-priced round-trip advance purchase
tickets and then reselling them to business travelers. There were all
sorts of tricks you could pull the get around the airlines' pricing
policies.

The security checkpoints started far earlier, back when hijackings to
Cuba began occurring in the 1960's, and got stricter after 9/11.

A passport, passport card, or "RealID" is required. "ReadID" can be a
drivers license or if you don't drive you can get a state ID card.

While some people would like a more convenient system of identification,
some don't want any government database based on fingerprints or iris
scans. Of course the government has a lot of that data already. For
example, just to be a chaperone on school field trips I had to do "Live
Scan" fingerprinting. And the Chinese government definitely has my
fingerprints since the last two times I went to China for trade
conferences I had to be fingerprinted at the airport.

[jbeattie]

Yikes. It's an airport not Auschwitz. Spend a buck and get TSA Pre-Check and go through a scanner -- maybe even get through the line faster. I couldn't imagine not flying places, although prices have jumped post-pandemic. I'm more anguished about loss of leg room than TSA screening, depending on the airport. At some airports (pre and post-pandemic) the line can be heinous even in TSA Pre.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 5:58 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> +1. You forgot 'take off your shoes' WTF. It is like cattle transport to the slaughter house.

The shoe thing is really annoying because there's zero evidence that it
adds any security, they just do it to annoy people. I don't think that
any other country has this requirement. This was began during the George
W. Bush administration. I think the reason that subsequent presidents
didn't order the TSA to stop it is because they were afraid of the
optics of doing something that to some would appear to lessen security.

Fortunately, for a fee, there's an easy way around all of that in the
U.S., called Global Entry/TSA Pre✓. You can go through a TSA procedure
and get a card that lets you skip the security line and go to a short
line at customs and immigration.

It's $100 for a five year Global Entry card (which includes TSA Pre✓) or
$85 for TSA Pre✓ only. Many credit cards reimburse you for this fee as
one of the perks. We have two credit cards that include this benefit,
though one has a $49 annual fee and one has a $75 net annual fee (for
both cards, the annual fee is lost in the noise because of the high cash
back they offer), three such cards can be seen here
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bHzOXZmrulS8rH58lZD4WbwpgAk2-binXt2kFH19-zs>

It was a pain to sign up because we had to make an appointment nearly
six months in advance and go to an airport where they had the
verification center. But it was during 2020 and we weren't flying
anywhere anyway. We haven't even used it yet.

[jbeattie]

I've used TSA pre lots of times, and its great, but I should have looked into the credit card deals. There was a period of time when the airlines were randomly assigning passengers to pre-check based on travel patterns or some other algorithm. That went away, and I paid the money and got TSA Pre -- and got it at the same time I got my TWIC card for port entry, so I had to go the TSA office anyway.

I was at the airport last night -- leaving off my son and not taking a flight. PDX is going through yet another re-do, and the post-pandemic crowds are large. SLC just got a new airport which my son hates because, according to him, you have to walk three miles to the gates. The old airport was quaint and convenient. I like little airports, but oddly, the TSA can be the most anal at those airports, really enforcing toothpaste in baggies, shoes off, etc. The TSA gal at STS was over the top, even though there were no potential terrorists in sight, unless you count Charlie Brown. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/a8/89/eca88951408377016164b237d5004124.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

[Ralph Barone]

Considering that humans are herd animals, you Americans sure talk a lot
about “freedom”.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 8:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> I've used TSA pre lots of times, and its great, but I should have looked into the credit card deals. There was a period of time when the airlines were randomly assigning passengers to pre-check based on travel patterns or some other algorithm. That went away, and I paid the money and got TSA Pre -- and got it at the same time I got my TWIC card for port entry, so I had to go the TSA office anyway.

Yeah, I often got TSA Pre✓ for some reason. Never figured out how that
algorithm worked. Since we have two credit cards that cover the fee we
went ahead and got Global Entry, but for the amount we travel we
wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

For passport control I had been using the free Mobile Passport app.
There's a separate line at passport control when you use that app and so
few people are aware of the app that the line is very short.

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=us.mobilepassport>
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/airside-mobile-passport/id907024887>

[jbeattie]

I don't do that much international travel, but when I do . . . I want the stamp! Analog rules!

-- Jay Beattie.

[jbeattie]

We pine away for a non-existent golden era of freedom -- freedom that has been stolen away from us by dark forces from Jewish space lasers to the designated hitter rule. In the golden era, we could do anything we wanted -- so long as it was missionary sex after marriage and didn't occur on Sunday, and so long as one were a white male. In 1951, when my house was built, a negro or a person of Chinese descent could not live in my neighborhood, except as a house servant.

-- Jay Beattie

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, I realize that what you're saying is that your wife does not have and does not want a passport but "Are you REAL ID ready?
On May 3, 2023, U.S. travelers must be REAL ID compliant to board domestic flights and access certain federal facilities.

Find out if you’re REAL ID ready with our interactive tool!"

So she will not be able to enter almost all of the Federal facilities that she might want to enter (perhaps all of them now that Biden is your King)

Your willingness to lie about anything simply demonstrates that you haven't the guts of a garden slug.

[AMuzi]

>> about “freedom†.

>
> We pine away for a non-existent golden era of freedom -- freedom that has been stolen away from us by dark forces from Jewish space lasers to the designated hitter rule. In the golden era, we could do anything we wanted -- so long as it was missionary sex after marriage and didn't occur on Sunday, and so long as one were a white male. In 1951, when my house was built, a negro or a person of Chinese descent could not live in my neighborhood, except as a house servant.
>
> -- Jay Beattie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Some of those things are real, some were very real once and
some are fanciful.

But the designated hitter rule is an abomination.

[Tom Kunich]

9/11 changed the entire airline industry. My friend, a Marine NCO, was in the Pentagon that day. I have no problem taking off my shoes so that they can test for shoe bombs of which they have used before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_shoe_bomb_attempt

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 8:31:24 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:

Outside of the Democrat controlled states, we don't have murders every day and in case of Chicago and Detroit - every hour. We do what we please and when we please. We own firearms that would arm entire armies. We own more guns that all of the armed forces combined and have started using them to kill people breaking into private property. What do you do?

[Tom Kunich]

The last time I flew from Oakland to LA, they didn't give me any checks at all. They pulled me and my wife out of the line and put me in a VIP line and I walked right on to the airplane. Because of my size they put me on the emergency exit door. That was three years ago I believe. Ahhhh, leg room.

[AMuzi]

On 7/14/2021 3:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 4:24:41 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/13/2021 2:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2021 1:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> ...I realized we could still get an airline flight with ordinary
>>>>>> ID papers plus our passport. We haven't flown since, but that's what
>>>>>> we'll do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank, proof of citizenship is either a birth certificate or a passport. Proof of address is a tax bill. What is long and hard about this?
>>>> Tom, what is hard is explaining it to you!
>>>>
>>>> See https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
>>>>> Certainly I would have expected you to have traveled overseas often enough that you would have a passport.
>>>> Of course I have a passport. I've had one since the mid-1970s.
>>>
>>> Frank, did you even read that? You don't have to have ALL of those things. You only need to prove your ID with any one of them. All new licenses are "Real ID" compliant. I think that the only additional thing is to have your thumbprint taken when you renew your license.
>> No, all new licenses are certainly NOT "Real ID" compliant. My wife had
>> the choice and chose not to bother with the paperwork.
>>
>> From https://upgradedpoints.com/travel/real-id-act/
>> "While all states are issuing REAL IDs, you can still get a non-REAL ID
>> license as well."
>>
>> Tom, you've reached the point where more than half of your claims are
>> wrong. You'd do better by flipping a coin.
>
> Frank, I realize that what you're saying is that your wife does not have and does not want a passport but "Are you REAL ID ready?
> On May 3, 2023, U.S. travelers must be REAL ID compliant to board domestic flights and access certain federal facilities.
>

> Find out if you’re REAL ID ready with our interactive tool!"

>
> So she will not be able to enter almost all of the Federal facilities that she might want to enter (perhaps all of them now that Biden is your King)
>
> Your willingness to lie about anything simply demonstrates that you haven't the guts of a garden slug.
>

When your presence is absolutely required in a Federal
building, the bailiff will get you in. On time.

Otherwise, no thanks.

[Tom Kunich]

What about the SS building? There's no bailiffs involved there. The RNC wants me to represent my congressional district. Does that involve entering a safe-zone Federal building?

[jbeattie]

Three years ago you went through the TSA line, and being tall doesn't get you a better seat or VIP treatment -- unless you paid for it. I'm your height, and my son is over 6'6", and we both get whatever seats we book. You must have gotten on an empty flight and gotten special treatment for some reason. Or maybe your wife just booked a nice seat.

Sadly, on a lot of short-haul equipment -- the Embraers and Bombardiers of the world -- even in business class, leg room is not extraordinary, but at least there are outlets and other amenities like free booze. On a short flight, I don't really care that much.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 8:31:24 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:

<snip>

>> Considering that humans are herd animals, you Americans sure talk a lot
>> about “freedom”.
>
> We pine away for a non-existent golden era of freedom -- freedom that has been stolen away from us by dark forces from Jewish space lasers to the designated hitter rule. In the golden era, we could do anything we wanted -- so long as it was missionary sex after marriage and didn't occur on Sunday, and so long as one were a white male. In 1951, when my house was built, a negro or a person of Chinese descent could not live in my neighborhood, except as a house servant.
>
> -- Jay Beattie

LOL. The lunatic right-wing throws various pieces of red meat to their
supporters. The idea that we've lost some sort of freedom is one of
those pieces of meat that they are thrown. Right up there with "Critical
Race Theory," "Cancel Culture," and the "Green New Deal."

If someone refuses to fly because the government does not want guns to
be brought onto airplanes they are free to not fly, that's freedom. If
someone wants to be stupid and not get vaccinated then they're free to
not participate in certain activities, that's also freedom. At some
point they may decide that being obtuse for no reason is not making
their lives better.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, don't tell me I went through the normal line which was very long and filled the plane. I don't know why they did it and they didn't do the same thing on the flight back. But they put me through a VIP line and I didn't have any carry-on. I think that I was boarded before first class. I suppose that is it possible someone at TSA knew me but I didn't see anyone. I was maybe the first to board. There was also a couple of people in that line behind me.

[jbeattie]

You're conflating TSA screening with boarding a plane. TSA has nothing to do with where you sit on a plane or in what order you board. That's up to the airlines. If you were boarded before first class, then someone thought you were disabled -- but that theory doesn't work because if you were disabled, then you would not get an exit row. More Mystery Spot. I suspect your wife bought a better seat. BTW, does this ring a bell: https://tinyurl.com/3ds7fxk7 That TSA screening at OAK. You did not skip that line and it was probably a fair distance from your gate.

The last time I flew out of OAK, some dope hit me at a gas station while I was doing the last-minute fill-up of my rental car. Luckily, it wasn't noticed when I returned the car. Don't turn me in.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 2:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Sadly, on a lot of short-haul equipment -- the Embraers and Bombardiers of the world -- even in business class, leg room is not extraordinary, but at least there are outlets and other amenities like free booze. On a short flight, I don't really care that much.

In 2019 I flew to Italy on a dated A330. It was on "Air Italy," a
short-lived airline but the only one with non-stops from SFO to anywhere
in Italy. The seat pitch was the smallest I had ever experienced, but
apparently is was 31" which is pretty standard for economy class. I'm
only 5'9". I can't imagine how it would be for someone tall.

[John B.]

Since I retired I haven't flown but "back in the day" Singapore used
to occasionally search incoming passengers after they landed :-)

On the other hand I don't believe Singapore ever had a case of
terrorism :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 07:10:48 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Personally I think that this obsession that seems prevalent in the
U.S. about personal identification is ludicrous. But of course, I
spent some 20 years in the Military where everyone is documented and
carries a photo identification.

Here in Thailand a photo identification is issued to all citizens at
birth - it used to be at entry into school - and every citizen has a
registered domicile, and it's been much the same in every country that
I've lived in, excepting the U.S.

And, I might add, all "social" benefits are restricted to citizens
only, which undoubtedly reduces the tax load as I read that more than
half of the U.S. budget goes to "social" payments of some sort.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I've lived in several countries that were effectively dictatorships
although they all claimed to be democracies :-) but I have never seen
anything like described here recently in the U.S.

But of course the U.S. can probably be described as "very progressive"
as I read, just the other day, that the U.S. State Department has
recently announced that for the "Sex" block on your passport you now
have three choices - M(ale), F(emale) and X(???).

Just think of that. The U.S. now claims to have three sexes. Proof
positive that the U.S. is more progressive then any other country in
the world! Think of the bragging rights "He, he, he, WE GOT Three
Sexes Here!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Rah! Rah! Rah! and you were the guy that got in all the trouble over
having a hand gun
http://sanleandrotalk.voxpublica.org/2013/07/20/no-good-deed-goes-unpunished-slpd-handcuffs-good-samaritan-ransacks-his-home-over-100-year-old-gun/

And before you get all excited a 100 year old pistol" is an almost
meaningless argument given that the Colt Army revolver is dated to
1873 and is still, I believe, being sold.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:30:45 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Not to argue, but isn't proof of "vaccination" required to enter
school any more? It certainly was when I was a little fellow.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Yes, that's right. I know someone who bought a brand new
Colt Single Action Army just a couple of years ago.

Regarding Mr Kunich's report, any wonder that so many people
take great care to avoid contact with any government agency?

[Ralph Barone]

Not that.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Personally I think that this obsession that seems prevalent in the
> U.S. about personal identification is ludicrous.

You are correct. A lot of the obsession is in Republican states where
they created a self-serving myth about illegal aliens collecting welfare
and Social Security (they don't), and where they created a self-serving
myth about voter fraud. In Democratic states the situation is much better.

I think part of the obsession is also related to the crime rate in some
states. In the U.S., Republican-controlled states have very high
per-capita murder rates. The top 13 states for homicide rates are
Republican states.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 5:37 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Not to argue, but isn't proof of "vaccination" required to enter
> school any more? It certainly was when I was a little fellow.

Yes, in most public schools it is required. But some Republican states
are prohibiting proof of Covid vaccination for high school students.
Once the Covid vaccines are FDA approved, instead of being used under an
Emergency Use Authorization, things will be a lot stricter.

There's a battle currently going on with cruise lines and Florida. The
governor tried to prohibit cruise lines from requiring passengers to be
vaccinated. Some cruise lines capitulated, some are fighting it.
Florida's governor is a Trump nut case.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 6:26 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:

<snip>

>> Outside of the Democrat controlled states, we don't have murders every
>> day and in case of Chicago and Detroit - every hour. We do what we please
>> and when we please. We own firearms that would arm entire armies. We own
>> more guns that all of the armed forces combined and have started using
>> them to kill people breaking into private property. What do you do?
>>
>
> Not that.

Tom is wrong of course™.

California is 28th in per capita homicides.

All the states with a homicide rate greater than 10 per 100,000 are
Republican states.
<https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm>.

[John B.]

Unfortunately it is rather difficult NOT to have contact with law
enforcement. And, unfortunately the law enforcement chaps have contact
with civilians who are somewhat less then law abiding so without doubt
both sides have a somewhat jaundiced view of the "other guy".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 18:52:00 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

But I've read that Washington D.C. is strongly Democrat and it has the
highest Intentional Murder Rate in the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 4:25:45 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 4:24:41 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 7/13/2021 2:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 7/13/2021 1:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> ...I realized we could still get an airline flight with ordinary
> > >>>> ID papers plus our passport. We haven't flown since, but that's what
> > >>>> we'll do.
> > >>>
> > >>> Frank, proof of citizenship is either a birth certificate or a passport. Proof of address is a tax bill. What is long and hard about this?
> > >> Tom, what is hard is explaining it to you!
> > >>
> > >> See https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
> > >>> Certainly I would have expected you to have traveled overseas often enough that you would have a passport.
> > >> Of course I have a passport. I've had one since the mid-1970s.
> > >
> > > Frank, did you even read that? You don't have to have ALL of those things. You only need to prove your ID with any one of them. All new licenses are "Real ID" compliant. I think that the only additional thing is to have your thumbprint taken when you renew your license.
> > No, all new licenses are certainly NOT "Real ID" compliant. My wife had
> > the choice and chose not to bother with the paperwork.
> >
> > From https://upgradedpoints.com/travel/real-id-act/
> > "While all states are issuing REAL IDs, you can still get a non-REAL ID
> > license as well."
> >
> > Tom, you've reached the point where more than half of your claims are
> > wrong. You'd do better by flipping a coin.

> Frank, I realize that what you're saying is that your wife does not have and does not want a passport ...

No, Tom. Once again, you're very confused.

- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 15.07.2021 um 02:21 schrieb John B.:
> But of course the U.S. can probably be described as "very progressive"
> as I read, just the other day, that the U.S. State Department has
> recently announced that for the "Sex" block on your passport you now
> have three choices - M(ale), F(emale) and X(???).

Same in Germany.
I believe there are 1,000 to 2,000 people out of 80 million in Germany
with an 'X' (actually in Germany it's 'D' for 'diverse) in their
passports; nature is sometimes doing freakish things, and operations on
babies to ensure their genitals look 'normal' have been frowned upon for
a while.

Here, anybody putting up job postings will write
"seeking engineer (m/f/d) ..." to ensure he'll not be sued by anybody on
"equal opportunity rights".

Rolf

[Mike A Schwab]

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:25:34 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On the chance that I might be getting a low blood count again I've resumed taking Iron and Vitamin D3. This usually takes a couple of weeks to have and effect so we'll see it things improve.
Add one Magnesium pill with breakfast with 5,000 I.U. Vitamin D3 in the morning and another Magnesium pill in the evening. Almost everyone is low and it helps absorb Vitamin D3. Two Magnesium pills at once or without food can result in diarrhea.