Rittenhouser

[Tom Kunich]

Looks like Riitenhouser was found innocent of all charges. And it also turns out that everyone involved in the assaults against him were career criminals. Just the sort of people to be involved in "mostly peaceful protests".

[AMuzi]

On 11/19/2021 2:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Looks like Riitenhouser was found innocent of all charges. And it also turns out that everyone involved in the assaults against him were career criminals. Just the sort of people to be involved in "mostly peaceful protests".
>

Not even distantly germane.

Wouldn't matter if Mother Theresa herself bashed his head
with a skateboard it's still self defense.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:57:47 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/19/2021 2:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Looks like Riitenhouser was found innocent of all charges. And it also turns out that everyone involved in the assaults against him were career criminals. Just the sort of people to be involved in "mostly peaceful protests".
> >
> Not even distantly germane.
>
> Wouldn't matter if Mother Theresa herself bashed his head
> with a skateboard it's still self defense.

Well, my comments had to do with statements made by Jay MANY times here. Because of his mostly peaceful protests in Portland, homicides are up 800% and Oregonians much to Jay's distress are refunding the police.

[AMuzi]

An individual is charged and tried for a specific
incident/action. Background of participants may be relevant
to a sentencing hearing after conviction but not at trial.

If you want to discuss larger trends in the culture, that's
a different discussion. But juries (and judges) botch
decisions regularly, in both directions, such that drawing
larger meaning from those decisions is not likely to be
predictive or otherwise useful.

[Tom Kunich]

I understand you're trying to be neutral and can appreciate that but there were full color videos and such a decision was inescapable.

[jbeattie]

STFU you moron. The case turned on the self-defense instruction and the evidence. I didn't hear either and have no opinion on whether the jury was right or wrong. The increased homicides in Portland have nothing to do with the protests, and yes, we are funding the policy along with other social service agencies. We are even cleaning up the homeless camps . . . slowly. It is not a shithole like Oakland.

I worked with officious little wanna-be cops like Rittenhouse when I was an ambulance driver in SJ. They'd sit around the office cleaning their Colt Pythons, which was the gun to own in the '70s. It was a miracle they didn't shoot each other or me. The last thing we need are a bunch of adolescents running around with AR15 variants making the world safe. Leave it to the professionals.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:23:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Leave it to the professionals.

lol. They did a fantastic job keeping that protest peaceful.

On the up side, Rittenhouse was the last minor boy Rosenbaum touched.

[Tom Kunich]

Not to mention the fact that all of those who were rioting and had any contact with Rittenhouse were known career criminals. But the case turned on the "self defense instructions" and not the opinions of the jury based on the facts.

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:42:27 PM UTC-8, Simon S Aysdie wrote:

By the way. Is your name Gaelic?

[AMuzi]

As is oft noted, "When seconds matter, 911 s just twenty
minutes away".

In Kenosha and many larger cities, business owners who had
filled the many forms, stood before endless panels for
endless permits, paid the damned property tax and all the
rest got not only no police protection but realized the next
day that standard business insurance contracts have a riot
exception.

Mayors refused to protect their taxpayers and Governors
mostly declined to intervene. Also remember that the Kenosha
riot was in August after several months of looting and
destruction, most notably in Chicago (just down the road, as
it were.)

[Tom Kunich]

Yes, but it wasn't a jury fed up with the likes of that useless and hopeless DA that should have his membership to the bar removed, but absolutely needless instructions from the judge that Jay thinks to have meant something absolutely different than what it did. Now, I do like Jay, he is one of the few real bicyclists here and I appreciate that. But I do not appreciate his radical left wing ideas he espouses all the time and I think that he should think of their effects on his son who has and entire lifetime to live under the crazies if they are left in office. After all I have been through, all that I have seen, all that I have accomplished despite whatever politics were in at the time, I can put up with anything. But I don't expect to be around more than another 10 years. And Jay's son could have anther 60. This has always been my view of politics - to make this country habitable to those we leave behind.

[AMuzi]

WTF? What ever do you mean?

Judge reviewed statutory language and provisions for the
jury. Wisconsin statutes, not New York and not Texas either.
Also not the TeeVee version nor something from a novel, no
matter how well that novel sold.

How can a review of the actual statute not comport with 'the
facts'? What the hell would you suggest for some alternate
standard apart from judging the facts as presented within
the language of the statutes?

[Tom Kunich]

Instructions to the jury are merely a required technicality and juried form their own opinions from the facts as they see them. I have sat on many juries since so few answer the call to jury duty and have saw lawyers watching the jury closely and often, OFTEN, pleaing a deal rather than putting his case before the jury. 12 men good and true are more likely to ferret out the truth than all of the lawyers in the world.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/19/2021 6:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> In Kenosha and many larger cities, business owners who had filled the
> many forms, stood before endless panels for endless permits, paid the
> damned property tax and all the rest got not only no police protection
> but realized the next day that standard business insurance contracts
> have a riot exception.

While I have great sympathy for the business owners and none for the
rioters, I wonder: Isn't it the business owner's responsibility to know
what's in their insurance contract?

And if they were smart enough to know there's a likelihood of riots,
wouldn't it be possible to buy riot coverage? That would be market
forces at work, solving problems!

In fact, those who, like Tom, are positive that society is crashing
should take some of the money out of their "prepper" funds, and start a
specialized insurance company offering riot coverage. It looks like a
juicy market, since the paranoia greatly exceeds the problem. They'd
only have to pay out once in a great while.

Cash in on the doom and gloom posts here! Talk about guerilla marketing!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Mayors and governors have resources at their disposal, including National Guard. Armed vigilantes are just another group of provocateurs that have to be controlled by legitimate law enforcement. It is illegal to use lethal force to protect third-party property -- in any state. Why are people showing up uninvited, with rifles to protect third-party property? Well, because they wanted to rumble. I saw that scenario repeated nightly for months with Proud Boys/Patriot Prayer versus Antifa -- or more acutely with the self-described anarchists. The supposed defenders of freedom and liberty were just more gas on the fire. I wish we could have gotten some D9s and scraped the whole lot of them into the river. If people are serious about protecting their communities, then become police reserve or volunteer in some organized way for legitimate law enforcement. Rittenhouse and his ilk are just dangerous Don Quixotes.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, you have NO OPTIONS when buying business insurance. They tell you what they will put in the policy and you take it or leave it and you can't leave it because you are legally obligated to have full liability. You can't get home insurance in California that includes earthquake insurance unless you're willing to pay over twice the given policy costs. Few businesses can even afford normal insurance let along the staggering costs you would pay for possible riot damage. That is why most of the businesses in Berkeley are boarded up with the entire facings now completely covered with 1/2" plywood. How long do you suppose that a business like that could survive? The store fronts are their only real advertising tool. A few blocks from my home in a supposed completely safe area a man's commercial garage was broken into and all of his tools stolen. So he is now gone. The man that I relied upon for all of my mechanical work for the 20 years is now gone. And who is still there? The Chinese who were in their stores with loaded guns.

[AMuzi]

You're entitled to your own opinion whatever it is.

But I didn't see this as snark or personality or ideology.
Again, you may but I don't.

A dispassionate person who saw the many videos from many
angles and understood the statutes would have acquitted.
Whether the assistant DA was an articulate genius or a
bumbling putz should not matter.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, that sounds good until you discover that the Democrat Governors do absolutely NOTHING while rifling the state treasuries. Why don't you know that Biden pushed multi- millions of dollars to his brother in his time in the Senate? That he got his son, a known narcotics addict into the Navy AS AN OFFICER on a nuclear submarine? I think that you should wake up and smell the roses. The Democrat Party is and always will be the party of racism and slavery. The ONLY reason they got to the point where they're at today is because they backed the Unions. Originally the unions were good for Americans. But that rapidly degenerated into the haves and have-nots and has stayed that way to the point where unions are not wanted by most workers except very limited areas.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I don't know what you mean by "snark". Jay is a lawyer and tends to think in terms of "we smart and you dumb" just serve on any jury and you very soon see that.

As to the results of the trial we are in complete agreement.

[AMuzi]

I was going to just drop it but that is exactly the problem.
Mayors and Governors do have resources. And taxpayers expect
civil order. If only.

In Chicago 1968 Da Mare, Richard J Daly brought out his full
force along with mutual aid from surrounding cities and Cook
County sheriffs. Mr Shapiro activated his Guard.

https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/3/hippie-confronts-national-guard-chicago-1968-daniel-hagerman.jpg

(my memory of that week is in neon technicolor but press
photos of the era are merely B/W)

In 2020, cities were destroyed by smaller crowds than we
were then and Mayors from Warren Wilhelm to Mayor Munchkin
and all the rest pulled their forces off the street,
declined to intervene and by August a lot of USAians had
seen that pattern in enough iterations to react.

The tenant at our old location, a Syrian Christian
immigrant, kept rioters out of his place with a sword. He
stood in his doorway against a mob with a sword. The other 8
blocks of the street were bashed broken and looted.

[Andre Jute]

.
Jay's a lawyer for rich corporations. He specializes in being on the wrong side. But he's an okay cyclist.
.
Andre Jute
Not crying a single tear for a rioting pederast or a rioting rapist off by a teenage they were assaulting.

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:51:18 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:14:15 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 11/19/2021 4:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

> > > ...
> > > ... I didn't hear either and have no opinion on whether the jury was right or wrong. ...

It is pretty easy to know if they got it right.

> > > ...

> > >
> > As is oft noted, "When seconds matter, 911 s just twenty
> > minutes away".
>
> > In Kenosha and many larger cities, business owners who had
> > filled the many forms, stood before endless panels for
> > endless permits, paid the damned property tax and all the
> > rest got not only no police protection but realized the next
> > day that standard business insurance contracts have a riot
> > exception.
> >
> > Mayors refused to protect their taxpayers and Governors
> > mostly declined to intervene. Also remember that the Kenosha
> > riot was in August after several months of looting and
> > destruction, most notably in Chicago (just down the road, as
> > it were.)
>
> Mayors and governors have resources at their disposal, including National Guard.

Non-responsive. Evasive.

They do, but they didn't. Evers even turned down an offer of federal assistance. He is a very cold, cruel, and callous individual--people suffered. The crime and chaos was totally predictable. He must have wanted it to happen. That's the "why" question to ask.

https://politicalpatrol.com/2020/08/26/two-killed-during-riots-in-wisconsin-as-democrat-governor-refuses-federal-assistance-2/

“While the damage to my office pales in comparison to the destruction of property and livelihoods happening in both Madison and Kenosha, it is emblematic of the growing disregard for the rule of law by some elected officials.”

I can't imagine why people would think it was finally up to them, even if misguided. No idea. It is a real puzzle. <as the looted city burns in the background>

looting is justice
racism is equity
war is peace
slavery is freedom
ignorance is strength

[Tom Kunich]

Amen. The time of the destruction of the Democrat party is near at hand. There isn't enough fraud they can raise against the American people.

[Andre Jute]

Frank-boy, there are times when you should keep those loose lips of your firmly clamped. We have seen repeatedly that you don't know shit about statistics and their uses, except the lying variety you're so attached to. And now we see that you don't know shit about what's happening in your country. Billions in property damage but Franki-boy Krygowski, a jumped-up oily rag, thinks "the paranoia greatly exceeds the problem".

Lord, help us when fools are abroad.

AndreJute
There's no greater fool than the willfully blind.

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 5:21:05 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:

> Jay's a lawyer for rich corporations. He specializes in being on the wrong side. But he's an okay cyclist.

lol

Burning neighborhoods is a peasant problem. Jay leans back and voices his theories, sipping wine with brie and crackers at the nouveau suburban cafe.

[Andre Jute]

"...bumbling putz"? That's one way to put it. If it weren't a brave teenager on trial for the rest of his life, I would have fallen down laughing at that clown Berger's antics, errors, and own goals. But that vicious jerk, while he was shooting his own toes off one by one, in the absence of an awake and able judge, could easily have railroaded and lynched that teenager. That sorry, unprincipled performance in any civilized society would get him dismissed and disbarred. -- AJ

[John B.]

Not to argue but are you saying that holders of "standard business
insurance contracts" hadn't read them and didn't know what the various
exemptions were?

I'm asking as the company I worked for wouldn't sign a used chewing
gum wrapper unless our legal consultant had read it, and explained it,
if necessary.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

.
That case against a principled, patriotic teenager was brought for exactly the motives Jay exposes in his remarks above, as a bow-wow across the bows of anyone who in future defends his property or his neighborhood or innocent victims, as was the case here, or who is attacked by criminal scum on the principle of "he who is not hundred percent with us is against us", as is also the case here. Jay gives that intention away with his flat statement that to oppose the criminal scum is "provocation". The message from Jay and the rest of the liberal scum in America has been received loud and clear: we support the criminal wreckers and if you stand up against them, we'll charge you with murder and wreck your life with lies.
.
Andre Jute
I told you this would happen, Jay, and that we would blame you by name, since you know better. Now it's happened and we're you're guilty of every one of those murders, of every firebomb and destroyed livelihood, of every beating administering by the rioting scum you defend so tenderly.

[John B.]

It probably does depend greatly on how much you want to spend, but my
experience with corporate insurance is that you can have any coverage
that you are willing to pay for.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

you what they will put in the policy and you take it or leave it"???

What utter bull shit! And I dealt with "business insurance" for 20
years or more. You can have any coverage that you want.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

And flying around in my jet with Swedish hookers.

Vigilantes and other dumb-weapons like spring guns and pits with punji sticks are outlawed for a reason. People get hurt -- often first responders. They may protect property, but so do insurance policies and the regular police and National Guard -- both of whom were summoned to maintain order after the Rittenhouse verdict. Adolescent dopes with semi-autos should not be crossing state lines to go rumble. Momma should have kept him home. Did he stop any property crime? No. He succeeded in shooting three people, adding to police burden and undermining order. He's part of the chaos.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 5:56:56 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:

> He succeeded in shooting three people, adding to police burden and undermining order.

Disingenuous framing.

They were shot in self defense. He didn't cause it at all, they did. He should not have been indicted.

[John B.]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:08:15 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

More of the brown stuff from our resident lunatic (he gets worse near
a full moon)

Hunter Biden's application for a position in the U.S. Navy Reserve was
approved in May 2013, he was administratively discharged a month
later. Hardly time to be trained in any position on a submarine of any
sort.

The other son, Beau, was in the Army and died after 12 years on active
duty and would never have served on a Submarine.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 5:56:56 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:

> Vigilantes and other dumb-weapons like spring guns and pits with punji sticks are outlawed for a reason. People get hurt -- often first responders. They may protect property, but so do insurance policies ...


Good god. Insurance policies do not "protect property." They provide *some* compensation for loss.

The "little old ladies" whose neighborhood pharmacy was burned down get nothing but another challenge.

You don't seem very empathetic. Sip your wine Jay, comfy in your seat.

[AMuzi]

Some do some don't. Your average small (owner and a handful
of employees) firm generally doesn't.

Much like flood insurance (almost always excepted from
standard policies not in floodplain) life is so full of
immediate problems that the highly improbable water damage
is literally unexpected. And uninsured.

[John B.]

Yes, I understand that and nearly all of our construction contacts
contained a "Act of God" exclusion which often included riots, floods,
and other "Natural" causes. But that clause was negotiable and I can
remember cases where either we, or the client, did modify the clause.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

His father lived in Kenosha and Kyle Rittenhouse was
employed as a lifeguard in Kenosha, closer to his mother's
house in Antioch than a drive across Portland.

I grew up along that border (somewhat west of that area) and
the state line is mostly unnoticed in daily life; dating,
employment, a short bike ride to swim in Illinois water,
grocery shopping and so on moves back and forth. The most
significant difference in my youth was that groceries in
Illinois sold oleomargarine; it was still banned in
Wisconsin. This year at the other end of Illinois the last
gas stations in Cairo closed. Mr Pritzker raised the
gasoline tax significantly but just across the bridge it's
55c less in Kentucky or 80c less in Missouri. People are mobile.

[Andre Jute]

.
Are you drunk, Jay? Rittenhouse shot three people who beat him with the proverbial "hard object" and pointed weapons at him and told him they would kill him. An American jury, whose verdicts you are professional enjoinder to respect, found Rittenhouse innocent of all charges, and that he acted in self-defense. Does your Bar know you publicly question a jury because in age-old Democrat style you preferred a lynching?

Why are you pulling the junior-high wannabe-shyster debating-trade trick on people -- us -- that you must surely know by now will pull you up short?

Andre Jute
We know you know better, Jay. Your moral degradation is fearful to behold. There but for the grace of God...

[AMuzi]

I have as well, but that's after many years of many
educational experiences (real education being either painful
or costly or both).

[Andre Jute]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 2:42:49 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
.> People are mobile.
.
One of the facts that I often used to explain America to Americans was that Americans moved house every three years on average. I don't know if it's still true, but it was a truly stunning statistic that explained a great many attitudes, both causal and consequential. -- AJ

[AMuzi]

Among economists, warnings have been written that the
dramatic reduction in mobility (both employment and
geographical) along with declines in small business startups
bode ill for our near future. We'll see, I don't know.

[John B.]

Which is why one retains a lawyer (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:15:49 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/19/2021 8:49 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 2:42:49 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>> .> People are mobile.
>> .
>> One of the facts that I often used to explain America to Americans was that Americans moved house every three years on average. I don't know if it's still true, but it was a truly stunning statistic that explained a great many attitudes, both causal and consequential. -- AJ
>>
>
>Among economists, warnings have been written that the
>dramatic reduction in mobility (both employment and
>geographical) along with declines in small business startups
>bode ill for our near future. We'll see, I don't know.

But can a small business compete today? On a metal working site I read
about guys buying metals and every one of them seem to buy from large
suppliers and none from a "local guy".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

The average small firm is gone within five years or so. This could be an
indication of why.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/19/2021 7:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:46:22 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/19/2021 6:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>

>>> In Kenosha and many larger cities, business owners who had filled the
>>> many forms, stood before endless panels for endless permits, paid the
>>> damned property tax and all the rest got not only no police protection
>>> but realized the next day that standard business insurance contracts
>>> have a riot exception.

>> While I have great sympathy for the business owners and none for the
>> rioters, I wonder: Isn't it the business owner's responsibility to know
>> what's in their insurance contract?
>>
>> And if they were smart enough to know there's a likelihood of riots,
>> wouldn't it be possible to buy riot coverage? That would be market
>> forces at work, solving problems!
>>
>> In fact, those who, like Tom, are positive that society is crashing
>> should take some of the money out of their "prepper" funds, and start a
>> specialized insurance company offering riot coverage. It looks like a
>> juicy market, since the paranoia greatly exceeds the problem. They'd
>> only have to pay out once in a great while.
>>
>> Cash in on the doom and gloom posts here! Talk about guerilla marketing!
> Frank, you have NO OPTIONS when buying business insurance. They tell you what they will put in the policy and you take it or leave it and you can't leave it because you are legally obligated to have full liability.

Bullshit, Tom. You can always buy more coverage.

https://www.lloyds.com/lloyds-around-the-world/us-en

When you buy insurance, the insurance company is betting nothing bad
that's covered by the policy is going to happen to you. You're betting
something bad _will_ happen, and be covered; but you're hoping the
insurance company wins.

It's weird, but it's an economic decision each person gets to make.
Smart people read the policy and know what's covered before making that
decision.

Some people bet wrong. But if they didn't do their reading, they
shouldn't get sympathy from bleeding heart conservatives.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Are you implying that states' laws should not be obeyed? Whatever
happened to "states' rights"?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

At least I don't write shitty paperbacks. And unlike you, I actually saw this in Portland with the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer guys -- minus the shootings, but with all the guns. This all took place 100 yards from my office -- which is next to City Hall and across from the federal courthouse. I got to walk through a park soaked in teargas past all these pretend Rambos from Vancouver -- who were entirely useless in protecting anyone and just increased the chaos. These guys just wanted to rumble -- like Rittenhouse. He should have stayed home with his mother.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Are there any left? I read the other day about Texas, where a duly
elected legislature is implementing some sort of abortion control law.
The news article said that some sort of argument against the ruling
was being brought before the Supreme Court.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Come now Sir! Old Andy is a greatly acclaimed author. If you don't
believe me just ask him.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:07:40 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>A dispassionate person who saw the many videos from many
>angles and understood the statutes would have acquitted.
>Whether the assistant DA was an articulate genius or a
>bumbling putz should not matter.

In about 1995, I had the displeasure of being selected for jury duty.
The case was "voluntary manslaughter". The defendant and the deceased
had a drunken argument. The defendant had a temporary plastic plate
over part of his skull that had been bashed in during a previous
drunken argument with someone else. Just touching the plastic plate
was likely to produce a serious brain injury and possibly death. When
the deceased drunk attacked the defendant, the defendant shot and
killed him with a single shot reproduction of an antique 45-70
carbine.

The judges instruction to the jury were that the case was to revolve
around whether this was self-defense, or voluntary manslaughter. In
this case, voluntary meant a killing without premeditation or malice
during a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion. In California, one
may use force if "he/she believes he/she, or someone else, is in
imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury..."
<https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/legal-defenses/self-defense/>

I was the jury foreman, so I ran the deliberations. The initial
opinion of most of the jurors would vote guilty. After a little
discussion, I decided it would be best to actually follow the letter
of the law and the judges instructions instead of assuming that if
someone had died, someone else must pay. So, I systematically
demolished the testimony of most of the witnesses, the accuracy of
arresting officers, the miserable video of the police interrogation,
and the amazing errors in the reconstruction of events and in the
interpretation of the medical evidence. The problem for the jurors
was that to deliver a guilty verdict, they would need to unanimously
agree that the evidence was sufficient to prove the defendant guilty,
beyond a reasonable doubt. I was providing the necessary doubt. When
I was done, there was very little evidence that was not in doubt
mostly because most of the witnesses were lying.

A day later, a straw vote of the jury showed that only one juror
thought the defendant was guilty. I worked on this lone holdout for a
full day and got nowhere. His excuse was something like "I don't care
whether he's guilty or innocent. I don't consider the streets to be
safe for my daughter to walk as long as he is free". So much for him
taking an oath to decide on the basis of the evidence rather than his
preconceived opinions. At the last possible moment, another juror
changed his vote to guilty because he saw the possibility of getting
employment with oath breaking juror. So, we ended up with a hung jury
and the defendant walked free. I wanted a unanimous vote of
innocence, but a hung jury was sufficient.

After the verdict was delivered, the assistant DA met with the jurors
in the court house hallway to discuss the trial and verdict. Oddly,
everyone was interviewed, except me. I guess I had spoiled someone's
party.

This is obviously not very similar to the Rittenhouse case, but does
offer some clues on how self-defense and juries works. It was also in
a different state where the laws and procedures might be different.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:10:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jay is a lawyer and tends to think in terms of
>"we smart and you dumb" just serve on any jury
>and you very soon see that.

Tom. How many juries have you been on? I mean the entire trial from
start to verdict.

I've been on three juries. Four juries, if I include one with a last
minute settlement. Two criminal, one property boundary dispute, and a
drunk driving case.

I've found some lawyers and prosecutors to be rather obnoxious in
person, but never in the courtroom. I never saw any of them proclaim
to be smarter than the jury, or make deprecating remarks about the
intelligence of the jury. They might do so in private, but never in
public. Oddly, I've noticed that "Me smart, you dumb" style insults
is what you seem to provide in R.B.T. Examples on request.

[AMuzi]

On 11/19/2021 10:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/19/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/19/2021 7:56 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 5:33:17 PM UTC-8, Simon S
>>> Aysdie wrote:
>>>> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 5:21:05 PM UTC-8, Andre
>>>> Jute wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jay's a lawyer for rich corporations. He specializes in
>>>>> being on the wrong side. But he's an okay cyclist.
>>>> lol
>>>>
>>>> Burning neighborhoods is a peasant problem. Jay leans
>>>> back and voices his theories, sipping wine with brie and
>>>> crackers at the nouveau suburban cafe.
>>>
>>> And flying around in my jet with Swedish hookers.
>>>
>>> Vigilantes and other dumb-weapons like spring guns and

>>> pits with punji sticks are outlawed for a reason.Â
>>> People get hurt -- often first responders. They may

>>> protect property, but so do insurance policies and the
>>> regular police and National Guard -- both of whom were
>>> summoned to maintain order after the Rittenhouse

>>> verdict.  Adolescent dopes with semi-autos should not
>>> be crossing state lines to go rumble. Momma should have
>>> kept him home.  Did he stop any property crime? No.

>>> He succeeded in shooting three people, adding to police

>>> burden and undermining order. He's part of the chaos.

>>>
>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>
>>
>> His father lived in Kenosha and Kyle Rittenhouse was
>> employed as a lifeguard in Kenosha, closer to his mother's
>> house in Antioch than a drive across Portland.
>>
>> I grew up along that border (somewhat west of that area)
>> and the state line is mostly unnoticed in daily life;
>> dating, employment, a short bike ride to swim in Illinois
>> water, grocery shopping and so on moves back and forth.
>> The most significant difference in my youth was that
>> groceries in Illinois sold oleomargarine; it was still
>> banned in Wisconsin. This year at the other end of
>> Illinois the last gas stations in Cairo closed. Mr
>> Pritzker raised the gasoline tax significantly but just
>> across the bridge it's
>> 55c less in Kentucky or 80c less in Missouri. People are
>> mobile.
>
> Are you implying that states' laws should not be obeyed?
> Whatever happened to "states' rights"?
>

Was there some issue with any of that? Chuck Berry
discovered that transporting a minor across state lines is a
felony[1]. Nothing about Mr Rittenhouse's movements between
Illinois and Wisconsin was a criminal act.

I did notice that the radio news has consistently reported
'crossed state lines with an illegal weapon and intent to
murder'. Not one word of that is true.

BTW I have hired men very much like Mr RIttenhouse, often.
Guys from Harvard, Twin Lakes, Loves Park, Clinton,
Burlington and so on, so I didn't have any particular animus
toward him. And yes most of them owned firearms and none so
far as I know ever pointed one at a human or had any reason
to do that.

[1]a tawdry tale, much convoluted and probably overcharged
but he did time for it anyway.

[AMuzi]

All of which is within the normal range of discourse in a
constitutional republic. And conclusions ought not to be
drawn yet as the entire area remains unresolved.

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 12:51:43 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:10:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Jay is a lawyer and tends to think in terms of
> >"we smart and you dumb" just serve on any jury
> >and you very soon see that.
>
> Tom. How many juries have you been on? I mean the entire trial from
> start to verdict.
>
> I've been on three juries. Four juries, if I include one with a last
> minute settlement. Two criminal, one property boundary dispute, and a
> drunk driving case.
>
> I've found some lawyers and prosecutors to be rather obnoxious in
> person, but never in the courtroom. I never saw any of them proclaim
> to be smarter than the jury, or make deprecating remarks about the
> intelligence of the jury. They might do so in private, but never in
> public. Oddly, I've noticed that "Me smart, you dumb" style insults
> is what you seem to provide in R.B.T. Examples on request.

I wonder why you always chose to pick only some things I say and comment on them as if they were all in the open and completely out of context? As I clearly stated - MOST people do not answer a jury summons of if they do disqualify themselves for work or other things. This means that the actual jury pool is very much composed of normal housewives and older retired people or the normal working man like myself who can afford the time a court case may take. So I have served literally on dozens of juries and I can't remember any of them that weren't criminal cases.

Perhaps your detection of a lawyer's attitudes is simply on another planet because most lawyers look down on juries and if they were total idiots and the lawyers are working hard not to show that. Because you are unaware of that shows more of your simplicity than your comments about lawyers in court.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, perhaps you'd like to explain to us what the hell you know about small business. Three years indeed!

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, as you've shown multiple times, you see what you chose to see as lawyers are hired to do.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/20/2021 8:58 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> Nothing about Mr
> Rittenhouse's movements between Illinois and Wisconsin was a criminal act.

Obviously, opinions differ, and those who agree with you seem to rely on
some tricky mental gymnastics.

Yesterday I briefly discussed the case with a PhD professor of criminal
justice. In his opinion, this result could be distilled down to one
fact: It's much, much easier to get an acquittal than a conviction, at
least assuming you don't have inconvenient skin pigment.

But my friend (who is also a former cop) absolutely detests wannabee
vigilantes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Officious intermeddlers are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

This does not mean volunteering is bad -- go fill sandbags to build flood walls, work as a reserve cop or join a group that cleans-up homeless camps, help first responders when asked. But grabbing your gun to go to a protest to make sure nobody gets out of line and causes property damage, knowing full well that it is going to provoke a response from some bad element just makes matters worse for the professionals. Rittenhouse may be not-guilty under Wisconsin law, but had he stayed home, there would be three less shot people. The massive justice machinery could have been engaged elsewhere. There was no upside. He'll be sued civilly. This is not over by a long shot.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 8:46:18 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> On 11/20/2021 8:58 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > Nothing about Mr
> > Rittenhouse's movements between Illinois and Wisconsin was a criminal act.
> Obviously, opinions differ, and those who agree with you seem to rely on
> some tricky mental gymnastics.

What is it about leftists where they always accuse others of what they are doing themselves? There is nothing wrong, complicated, or controversial about what Andrew said. It is true. So he drove 20 miles across a state border to the town his dad lived in, and he had worked in.

This complaint is puzzling given that the current leftist federal administration has a policy of open state/federal/national border crossings. Since when did leftists have a problem with no friction at political borders? This complaint is gymnastic.

> Yesterday I briefly discussed the case with a PhD professor of criminal
> justice. In his opinion, this result could be distilled down to one
> fact: It's much, much easier to get an acquittal than a conviction, at
> least assuming you don't have inconvenient skin pigment.

Disingenuous misdirection. Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't help justice for those denied by taking justice away from someone else.

> But my friend (who is also a former cop) absolutely detests wannabee
> vigilantes.

"Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he was using force, or threatening force to "take law into his own hands." For counter-example to the smear, he was trying with a fire extinguisher to put out the dumpster fire Rosenbaum had set, not threatening force against Rosenbaum to stop. Carrying a weapon may be simply saying "don't eff with me."

Rosenbaum had twice threatened to kill him and was chasing him attempting to take a loaded weapon from him. There is no way he can surrender a loaded weapon under those circumstances. We was running away trying to avoid Rosenbaum, not taking the law into his own hands. Your reference insinuating Rittenhouse was playing vigilante lacks evidence.

In other media I am routinely seeing regressives (Ieftists) going into full convulsions about how "Rittenhouse got away with murder!" Fully lacking is any explanation of how that is so... "IT JUST IS SO" as the seizure twists their wretched faces followed by "HE IS A HERO OF THE RIGHT!", another assertion also lacking dots and connections.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 07:24:30 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 12:51:43 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:10:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Jay is a lawyer and tends to think in terms of
>> >"we smart and you dumb" just serve on any jury
>> >and you very soon see that.
>>
>> Tom. How many juries have you been on? I mean the entire trial from
>> start to verdict.
>>
>> I've been on three juries. Four juries, if I include one with a last
>> minute settlement. Two criminal, one property boundary dispute, and a
>> drunk driving case.
>>
>> I've found some lawyers and prosecutors to be rather obnoxious in
>> person, but never in the courtroom. I never saw any of them proclaim
>> to be smarter than the jury, or make deprecating remarks about the
>> intelligence of the jury. They might do so in private, but never in
>> public. Oddly, I've noticed that "Me smart, you dumb" style insults
>> is what you seem to provide in R.B.T. Examples on request.

>I wonder why you always chose to pick only some things I say and comment on them as if they were all in the open and completely out of context? As I clearly stated - MOST people do not answer a jury summons of if they do disqualify themselves for work or other things. This means that the actual jury pool is very much composed of normal housewives and older retired people or the normal working man like myself who can afford the time a court case may take. So I have served literally on dozens of juries and I can't remember any of them that weren't criminal cases.

Please forgive me if I don't believe you. I doubt you have ever been
on a jury and therefore have no experience with how jury selection
works. You are correct that most juries end up full of retired,
self-employed and non-working people who have the time to serve.
However, during jury selection, a common question was "have you
previously served on a jury" sometimes followed by "how many". The
lawyers do not want to deal with a juror who had previous legal
experience and will tend to disqualify them for cause. The grilling I
received during jury selection was quite thorough. I can see that it
would be possible for you to serve on a few juries during your
lifetime, but probably not a dozen. In California, you can serve no
more than once per year:
<https://www.courts.ca.gov/juryservice.htm>
(See "Length of Service"). Employers also take a dim view of multiple
absences.

In Santa Cruz county, Superior Court hearings are divided into many
divisions:
<https://www.santacruz.courts.ca.gov/divisions>
Some offer a trial by jury. It's a bit difficult for me to obtain the
number of cases per division, but I was able to get a rough picture
using the search tool:
<https://portal.santacruzcourt.org/portal>
and using:
<https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/2020-Court-Statistics-Report.pdf>
<https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/2021-Court-Statistics-Report.pdf>
See the various graphs of the case load by type of filing (for the
state). Offhand, I would guess(tm) that jury cases were equally
divided between civil, criminal, domestic, and family but can't be
sure without a complete local court calendar. How you managed to get
12 criminal cases without being select for a different division will
be left to the imagination. Jurors are not selected for their
expertise or extensive experience, so unless there's been a rather
amazing statistical anomaly, or your area was the center of an amazing
level of criminal activity, you're chances of getting 12 criminal
trials is rather limited and difficult to believe.

Incidentally, I was also involved in 2 other jury selections. I was
dismissed in one and the other was settled in the court hallway. The
reason that happened was the lawyers would get some percentage of the
judgment if the case was settled before the case went to trial, but a
much larger percentage if it went to trial.

If you really were a civic minded individual, you could have
volunteered for the Calif Grand Jury, which prepares advisory reports
and recommendations on government inefficiencies and ineptitude. I
knew and know a few former jurors. It's a somewhat thankless and time
consuming activity, for which I doubt you would have been selected or
survived:
<https://www.courts.ca.gov/civilgrandjury.htm>

Hopefully, you've learned a little from my description that will be
helpful the next time you lie about your jury experience.

>Perhaps your detection of a lawyer's attitudes is simply on another
>planet because most lawyers look down on juries and if they were total
>idiots and the lawyers are working hard not to show that. Because
>you are unaware of that shows more of your simplicity than your
>comments about lawyers in court.

You're right about the simplicity. Once you understand how things
work, it's much simpler and easier to make a proper judgment. You
should try it sometimes.

[ 45 mins wasted ]

[AMuzi]

Kenosha in 2020 defies simple 'solutions'. Ideally, yes,
police keep normal civil order. They were told to stand down
(Police are amply documented at the edges of the Rittenhuose
videos). Police stood and watched as ordered, they did not
interfere with arson, looting and assaults of various
severities. Same in Chicago, Minneapolis, NYC etc. Mr
Rittenhouse tried to surrender to police at the scene and
make a report but was rebuffed, so he went home and made a
report in Antioch later.

Here's a snippet of context for you:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/d3uQBfwRiOk/maxresdefault.jpg

[AMuzi]

Some posit that Mr Rittenhouse should have been there
unarmed. Again, August in Kenosha was well after many prior
indcidents in other US cities. Here's a man who did his best
to help but was not armed:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-dorn-retired-st-louis-police-captain-killed-unrest-george-floyd-death/

"June 3, 2020 / 6:52 AM / CBS/AP
Retired St. Louis police captain killed during unrest
sparked by George Floyd death

A retired St. Louis police captain who became a small-town
police chief was killed by people who broke into a pawn shop
after protests turned violent, authorities said. David Dorn,
77, was found dead on the sidewalk in front of Lee's Pawn &
Jewelry about 2:30 a.m. Tuesday.

No arrests have been made."


"Dorn, who was black, was a friend of the pawn shop's owner
and frequently checked on the business when alarms went off,
his wife, St. Louis police Sgt. Ann Marie Dorn, told the St.
Louis Post-Dispatch."

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 8:46:18 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

That's it Frank, it was his skin color that granted him completely immunity from exercising his right to self defense. Your severe mental problems are showing more and more with every posting. What are you going to do with Trump is re-elected? Is it your intentions to run into your bedroom, hide your face in the pillow and cry yourself to sleep?

[Tom Kunich]

In other words, take any actions that won't interfere with criminals burning down cities. This is the future you wish upon your son and when he realizes it watch what happens.

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, it really hurts my feelings that you don't believe me. You seem to object "wasting" your time. So why do you do it if it isn't simply to attack anything I say? In which case how to you call that wasting your time? Face it - you are a freak show about to die and nobody cares.

[Tom Kunich]

When you have ON VIDEO career criminals shouting "I'm going to kill you" and assaulting him with guns and someone says that Rittenhouse shouldn't have been there with a means to protect himself why the police were told to DO NOTHING about severe criminal activity, this pretty much gives you a good look into the hearts of Democrats and Jay's statements more than shows the truth of that. The greatest fear that Democrats have is that Conservatives will have enough and defend themselves and their businesses.

[jbeattie]

In other words, adolescent dopes with guns playing cops don't help anyone. They don't stop anything. They provoke a worse response. They shoot people and are not heroes. If my son dressed up like some wannabe Rambo and ran off to Vancouver with an AR15 to crack-down on protesters, I'd let him have it -- at least when he was 17. He makes his own choices as an adult, which, thankfully, do not include playing GI Joe with live ammunition. If he wants to feel manly, he goes down to the gym and out deadlifts the guy next to him. He has a real job, lots of friends and doesn't live with his mother.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/20/2021 12:43 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
>
> "Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he was using force, or threatening force to "take law into his own hands."

The first "vigilante" definition I see says "a member of a
self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their
community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies
are thought to be inadequate." That's why he was there, with his gun. He
fits the definition.

He intended to use armed force to prevent property damage. He was quoted
(in inadmissible evidence) that he'd like to shoot rioters. He brought a
gun type designed with combat features. And if he had not brought the
gun, nobody would have paid much attention to him.

He's a classic coward gun nut, playing tough guy but timid without his
play toy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

But the court didn't find him guilty, did it.

So, what's the solution? Mob rule and lynching. I don't like him so
hang him?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sepp Ruf]

Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/20/2021 12:43 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
>>
>> "Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he was using
>> force, or threatening force to "take law into his own hands."

> He's a classic coward gun nut, playing tough guy but timid without
> his play toy.

Okay boomer, apart from maybe telling others to "call 911!" because you
were too nervous to operate a phone, what kind of heroism were you known
for, at age 17? And since then, how many citizen arrests have you
performed on armed, or even unarmed criminals?

We could return to the fate of a cyclist Kyle, btw...
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rZZTPp-eYU>
(enduro mountain biker Kyle Warner, pfizinjured, speaking to Dr. John
Campbell)

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 2:58:04 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/20/2021 12:43 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
> >
> > "Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he was using force, or threatening force to "take law into his own hands."
> The first "vigilante" definition I see says "a member of a
> self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their
> community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies
> are thought to be inadequate." That's why he was there, with his gun. He
> fits the definition.

Non-responsive. Again, he didn't threaten force or use force to stop any criminal activity. He did not manifest the vigilante behavior. You have a narrative to paint, facts be damned.

The first time Rittenhouse raised the weapon ("immediacy"; and that I have seen) was when Rosenbaum, a convicted child rapist (anal rape) who'd threatened to kill him twice, was running around yelling the n-word, and had almost caught the retreating Rittenhouse between cars where other shots went off right at that time. You are mind-reading.

> He intended to use armed force to prevent property damage. He was quoted
> (in inadmissible evidence) that he'd like to shoot rioters.

Mind reading. No, he didn't say he'd like to "shoot rioters." Supposing the video/audio you speak of is him, it wasn't at riots in question. (Gee, I wonder why it was inadmissible.) Casually stated fantasies, done from a distance, and removed in place and time (weeks) don't constitute the state of mind you've read. There is video of the his demeanor that day and night. He's talking about helping people with medical needs, for example.

> He brought a
> gun type designed with combat features.

What does that mean? What is a "combat feature"?

> And if he had not brought the
> gun, nobody would have paid much attention to him.

You're twisting reality. "Nobody" did pay much attention to him. It was Rosenbaum who triggered the entire thing. Rosenbaum was enraged that Rittenhouse had put out a dumpster fire that he had started. Another flaming dumpster was being pushed to a gas station, and Rosenbaum was angry guards put it out. Rosenbaum chased Rittenhouse. Rittenhouse was trying to avoid confrontation. A detective witness said other proximal shots went off seconds before Rittenhouse was nearly caught by Rosenbaum between the cars.

> He's a classic coward gun nut, playing tough guy but timid without his
> play toy.

What? Coward? Timid? He's not the dead one. You're saying he should not have retreated and instead shot Rosenbaum while he was lighting the dumpster on fire? You know, actually behave as the brave enforcer you've accused him of? Your narrative is incoherent.

Again, the real question is about the sustained criminal behavior Democrats encouraged in American cities. Why? They created the chaotic, destructive, and criminal environment 17 yo Rittenhouse walked into. They're who you should be questioning.

The Rittenhouse affair is one of basic self defense. Not complicated at all.

[jbeattie]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 4:29:28 PM UTC-8, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/20/2021 12:43 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
> >>
> >> "Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he was using
> >> force, or threatening force to "take law into his own hands."
> > He's a classic coward gun nut, playing tough guy but timid without
> > his play toy.
> Okay boomer, apart from maybe telling others to "call 911!" because you
> were too nervous to operate a phone, what kind of heroism were you known
> for, at age 17? And since then, how many citizen arrests have you
> performed on armed, or even unarmed criminals?

I did my first ambulance call at 15 1/2, illegally and because I knew the owner of the company. It was just a transfer, but I got to dress up -- we wore clip on ties back then. I got my CPR and advanced first-aid when I was 16, and again, because I knew the owner of the company (and was tall and passed for older), I was doing accident calls on HWY 17 -- before the center divider. https://www.dangerousroads.org/north-america/usa/5237-california-state-route-17.html So, at 17, I was saving the lives of old people who fell off toilets and people mangled in beater '50s death-mobiles on HWY 17. I went to work legally at 18 in SJ/Eastside, then went back to LG and quit at 22 1/2.

BTW, in 1975, I worked in this ambulance with this exact guy. He bought the rig decades later because he's a collector. http://www.riponmenloparkpolicecarshow.com/winners09/1975CadillacMiller-Meteor.jpg I worked with him for years at two companies -- he carried a big gun. I wish he had shot this one guy who pulled knife on me, but the real cops intervened.

I performed no citizen's arrests since there was usually a cop at hand, but there were plenty of times when me and my partner stepped into some gang row before cops arrived and had to negotiate. I always thought it was odd being threatened by some gangbanger while his homie was bleeding out on the ground. Why be antagonistic to me? I'm just some dope with a dressing. I learned it was some weird machismo ritual hokey-pokey. I had to bargain and pay homage for a few minutes before getting permission to work. Eastside SJ was a serious cultural adjustment coming from Allwhiteyville, Ca.

Anyway, dopey kids can do things helpful -- but under adult supervision and with actual training, and it doesn't involve AR15s. Rittenhouse should have been working on his square knots and becoming an Eagle Scout and not pretending to make the world safe with live ammunition.

I> We could return to the fate of a cyclist Kyle, btw...

> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rZZTPp-eYU>
> (enduro mountain biker Kyle Warner, pfizinjured, speaking to Dr. John
> Campbell)

You can get pericarditis after a dental exam -- or just because. I got the Pfizer vaccine and then broke my leg skiing. It's an unlucky vaccine.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Would you mind explaining why you can never bring yourself to tell the truth about anything at all? This is not going to reflect well on you now that the country is recovering from stupid people like you.

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 2:58:04 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Ahh, little Franky is crying that the worm has turned and the Marxists are going to be disassembled body by body.

[Tom Kunich]

Neither Frank nor Jay believe in the jury system. So much for so-called "education".

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/20/2021 7:29 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/20/2021 12:43 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
>>>
>>> "Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he was using
>>> force, or threatening force to "take law into his own hands."
>
>> He's a classic coward gun nut, playing tough guy but timid without
>> his play toy.
>
> Okay boomer, apart from maybe telling others to "call 911!" because you
> were too nervous to operate a phone, what kind of heroism were you known
> for, at age 17?  And since then, how many citizen arrests have you
> performed on armed, or even unarmed criminals?

At age 17, I was noted for being extremely intelligent. I was way too
intelligent to pretend to be a tough guy by carrying a gun to a riot site.

And it's a fundamental fact that it's NOT the job of teenage hotheads to
perform citizens' arrests. That's a fantasy of a fringe of the right wing.

I had my moments of bravery. Others were impressed. You don't get to
hear about them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/20/2021 7:45 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
> On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 2:58:04 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/20/2021 12:43 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
>>>
>>> "Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he was using force, or threatening force to "take law into his own hands."
>> The first "vigilante" definition I see says "a member of a
>> self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their
>> community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies
>> are thought to be inadequate." That's why he was there, with his gun. He
>> fits the definition.
>
> Non-responsive. Again, he didn't threaten force or use force to stop any criminal activity. He did not manifest the vigilante behavior.

He traveled to a riot scene to display a gun to supposedly protect
others' property. That _is_ vigilante behavior. I don't see how that's
not obvious.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

>"designed with combat features"

You've tried a similar argument previously. What's a 'combat
feature'? A brass cartridge & lead projectile?
Actual FMJ? (which he did not use).
Iron sights? My girlfriend's 10-22 has those. Scary!
Which 'combat feature' did he have?

Speaking of, I don't think you've yet replied from our last
walk through this area: Of the 190-odd countries on earth,
which military uses AR-15? (Mr Slocumb found some
competition target teams but not 'regular issue'). If AR-15,
with it's magical super fast lead spray, is so
effective,wouldn't nefarious dictators hellbent on world
domination just buy up a lot of those? They could even dump
their M249SAW collections on ebay along with those old
fashioned not-scary-looking Browning M2 .50s. And yet they
don't. No one serious about their military uses AR-15.

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:41:16 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> He traveled to a riot scene to display a gun to supposedly protect
> others' property. That _is_ vigilante behavior. I don't see how that's
> not obvious.

So when I walk a lady to her car in the dark parking lot after work to provide some "protection," I am a vigilante.

Vigilante it is.

You don't give a shit who suffers. You are against self-defense and for lawlessness, chaos, and destruction. Cold bastard. ugh nasty

[jbeattie]

He went looking for trouble and found it. There was no old lady. No car. The guy didn't even help a wounded kitten -- or protect any property. He did, however, manage to shoot three people. At least Bernie Goetz didn't go looking for trouble. He got off and was successfully sued for $43M. That's next for Kyle.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Andre Jute]

You make me sick, Jay. Career criminals beat Kyle Rittenhouse with a hard object, threatened to kill him, pointed a firearm at him, and he defended himself effectively. He was tried for his life by the lynch mob in the DA's office, who thereby made a universal laughing stock of themselves. But you wish him harm because he doesn't share your sick, destructive politics.You're the friend of criminals and thugs and other slime, who get away with their crimes through your enablement, which is clear for all to see. You're a lawyer. You should know better than, for instance, Frank Krygowski, who is a contemptible human being all round but pitiable too because he is clearly too insensitive to grasp the implications of what he says and wishes for, an excuse a lawyer cannot claim.

Unsigned out of contempt.

[Tom Kunich]

If you were noted as being extremely intelligent at 1 what the hell happened? You haven't made a single intelligent statement since I recovered from my concussion 12 years ago. What with you telling people that high end bikes aren't any good because they don't have rack mounts that is the very least of you staggeringly stupid comments.

[jbeattie]

Dear dimwit, two of the victims approached Rittenhouse believing he was an active shooter, which he was. Read the trial testimony of Gaige Grosskreutz -- who was at the protest as a paramedic and not a looter, criminal, etc. Same goes for Anthony Huber who thought Rittenhouse was a lunatic on a shooting spree. Huber was some Bohemian present at the protest with his girl friend. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/parents-rittenhouse-victim-anthony-huber-react-not-guilty-verdict-rcna6177

Grosskreutz has already filed suit against the City, and it will join Rittenhouse (or it should). The Huber estate will sue, too. Rittenhouse should have stayed home with his mother -- mowed the lawn and maybe shot some squirrels with his AR15. He could have gotten some college applications mailed in or done his homework. Playing dress-up GI Joe and going to a rumble in Wisconsin FU'd his whole life -- and the lives of many others. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/14/kyle-rittenhouse-proud-boys-bar/ https://www.wpr.org/jury-wont-hear-evidence-kyle-rittenhouses-proud-boys-connections

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Actually what is far more deadly on a death per cartridge would be the
M40 rifle. Quite frequently 1 shot - 1 kill. A far different weapon
then the AR series (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 11:18:41 AM UTC-8, Simon S Aysdie wrote:

This is typical Frank. Not to mention Jay telling us that Portland had "mostly peaceful protests" as they were breaking into stores looting and then burning them. Killing police and burning police stations and city hall.

As I said, these radical leftists are frightened out of their minds that the common man is fed up with them and if they get in the way of Democracy they are going to end up on the end of a rope.

I was watching one of these video's of Ben Shapiro where some mentally unstable person said that Lenin and Stalin saved the world. Those two murdered 30 million of their own Russian people. They made Hitler look like a piker. Plus they signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact which was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that enabled those two powers to partition Poland between them. The pact was signed in Moscow on 23 August 1939 by German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov and was officially known as the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and Russia which allowed Germany not to worry about their northern border so that they could attack Europe and Northern Africa. With those successes under their belts, Germany simply broke their treaty and attacked Russia.

People like Frank and Jay are all for Socialism because they believe that they would be part of the elite dictatorship that always forms in a socialism. They actually think that the educated will become the elite and not that they will and their children and all of their families would be murdered by what takes over - those with pure power and not education. The sheer ignorance of these people is beyond belief and I can only say that the Free Enterprise Capitalist system is filled with problems but nothing like every other governmental system that has ever been tried.

Frank and Jay pretend to be educated and yet neither of them know history or understand a line of it.

[Tom Kunich]

Do you want to put some money where your mouth is?

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:10:19 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:

> ... two of the victims approached Rittenhouse believing he was an active shooter, ...

1. They were not "victims." False characterization.
2. It doesn't matter if they had an incorrect understanding. Huber literally attacked Rittenhouse and Grosskreutz approached to close range and pointed an illegally possessed gun at him.

> ... which he was.[an active shooter.]

That is an obviously false statement, and a deliberately inflammatory one. Nice work.

"An Active Shooter is a situation where one or more suspects participate in a random or systematic shooting spree and demonstrate intent to continuously harm others."

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 12:45:52 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:

> He went looking for trouble and found it.

This is a false statement--there is no evidence he went looking for trouble, and counter-evidence exists. He attempted to retreat w/o firing the weapon. There is no evidence he was a provocateur or aggressive. Again, he tried to get away without firing. The only people shot were people demonstrating ability, opportunity, and immediacy in their threat level.

[Frank Krygowski]

Hmm. The FBI says "An active shooter is an individual actively engaged
in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area," which
certainly applies here.

Practically speaking, if someone shoots multiple people, he should be
considered an active shooter until he is disarmed or otherwise
incapacitated. Until then, he's still active. And whether he thinks he
did the shooting in self defense can't possibly be part of the
determination.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/21/2021 2:18 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:41:16 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>> He traveled to a riot scene to display a gun to supposedly protect
>> others' property. That _is_ vigilante behavior. I don't see how that's
>> not obvious.
>
> So when I walk a lady to her car in the dark parking lot after work to provide some "protection," I am a vigilante.

I'd say if you arrive to do that while displaying your AR15, then yes,
you are. You are attempting to assume the powers of the police.

One major reason the modern homicide rate is far, far lower than that of
much earlier times is that society has broadly decided that not every
idiot is allowed to use deadly force to enforce laws. Those who are
given that authority are given detailed training in laws and tactics,
taught discipline and obedience to orders, and given uniforms.

Here we have a momma's boy who wanted that power without any of the
training and discipline. He was a fool. The harm he did greatly
outweighs any good he might have done.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

VI Lenin didn't sign anything in 1939. He was 15 years in
the grave by then (and nine years gone when Mr Hitler was
elected )

[AMuzi]

Your characterization doesn't comport with testimony and
evidence at trial.

OTOH if police had not been told to stand down, not only in
Kenosha but other major and nearby cities all summer, none
of the citizens who came to prevent/reduce arson/looting
would have bothered.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WAUi5pGAT-4/maxresdefault.jpg

There's a reason people often note, 'When seconds matter,
911 is just twenty minutes away'

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/21/2021 12:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/20/2021 4:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/20/2021 12:43 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
>>>
>>> "Vigilante" is used as a smear. There is no evidence he
>>> was using force, or threatening force to "take law into
>>> his own hands."
>>
>> The first "vigilante" definition I see says "a member of a
>> self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law
>> enforcement in their community without legal authority,
>> typically because the legal agencies are thought to be
>> inadequate." That's why he was there, with his gun. He fits
>> the definition.
>>
>> He intended to use armed force to prevent property damage.
>> He was quoted (in inadmissible evidence) that he'd like to
>> shoot rioters. He brought a gun type designed with combat
>> features. And if he had not brought the gun, nobody would
>> have paid much attention to him.
>>
>> He's a classic coward gun nut, playing tough guy but timid
>> without his play toy.
>
>
>> "designed with combat features"
>
> You've tried a similar argument previously. What's a 'combat feature'?

It's a design feature intended to make a firearm more capable in
firefights, often close quarters firefights. Examples would be
relatively compact size compared to (say) classic hunting rifles. Pistol
grips to enhance control of the weapon during rapid body motions like
running or pivoting. Ability to accept large capacity magazines, and
relatively lightweight rounds so more can rounds can be carried. Rapid
fire capability, especially coupled with large capacity magazines. None
of those have any benefit for legitimate hunting, or any target shooting
that's not pretending to kill people.

There are other possibilities, of course. Flash suppression, silencers,
camouflage or dark matte finishes to reduce visibility, etc. Not all AR
rifles have those; but those are part of the look, the options, and the
appeal to the killer fantasy crowd.

As to the armies of variations nations: Those are irrelevant to the
problem. The problem isn't trained soldiers. The problem is dweebs who
need to pretend to be killers in order to jack up their testosterone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Nonsense. He showed up to guard things, carrying the equipment of deadly
force. He had no law enforcement training or authority. He's exactly as
I described above. He's no hero, he's a fool.

The admiration heaped on him by the far right is insane. His kind of
behavior wasn't tolerated even in the glory days of the right's cowboy
movie fantasies.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Out very own Tommy de Lune, a real history buff

He refers to Lenin and Stalin and says.
"Plus they signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact"??
A really thrilling statement until one remembers that the M-R Pact was
signed in 1939 while Lenin died in 1924.

As for "all for Socialism"? Aren't you the bloke sucking on the Social
Security tit? Don't you realize that is exactly how a socialistic
system works?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Once again, in Wisconsin, it is illegal to use deadly force to protect third-party property. I cannot go to Andrew's house and shoot people who pelt it with fire bombs.

Rittenhouse was defending a previously burned car dealership with his gun -- from a roof top. He was told to leave by police. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html He was protecting a car dealership "because it was his job," which it wasn't. https://www.fox6now.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-car-dealership-march

I didn't hear the testimony and will never know the truth, whatever it may be, but I've seen the Sharks versus the Jets thing over and over in the context of protests in Portland. Patriot Prayer and Proud Boys pretend to be keeping order and promoting the public good, but its just a rumble -- go kick some Antifa butt. It got to the point that they would just designate a parking lot or street corner to go rumble. https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2021/08/22/east-portland-proud-boys-rally-devolves-into-street-violence-with-no-police-in-sight/ Keeping former K-Marts free.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 18:39:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/21/2021 2:18 PM, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:41:16 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> He traveled to a riot scene to display a gun to supposedly protect
>>> others' property. That _is_ vigilante behavior. I don't see how that's
>>> not obvious.
>>
>> So when I walk a lady to her car in the dark parking lot after work to provide some "protection," I am a vigilante.
>
>I'd say if you arrive to do that while displaying your AR15, then yes,
>you are. You are attempting to assume the powers of the police.
>
>One major reason the modern homicide rate is far, far lower than that of
>much earlier times is that society has broadly decided that not every
>idiot is allowed to use deadly force to enforce laws. Those who are
>given that authority are given detailed training in laws and tactics,
>taught discipline and obedience to orders, and given uniforms.

Where? Certainly not in Early America. As late as 1881 (The gunfight
at the O.K. Corral) this wasn't true as Virgil Earp, et al, had no
special training nor uniforms.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But Frank, every one of your supposed (would one say dangerious)
descriptions is common in many non military firearms. Dark finish, for
example has been common since the earliest days. Large magazines? the
Marlin Model 60, for example holds 14 rounds, the Winchester 1873
holds 16, the Henry, the forerunner of the lever action rifles held 16
rounds in the magazine. As for pistol grips, yes they are fairly new
however "thumb hole" stocks to serve as a sort of "pistol grip" date
back as far as I can remember, certainly not a "new" thing.

As for killing people... well the earliest known firearms seem to have
been designed for warfare, i.e. killing people. The earliest depiction
of a gunpowder weapon is the illustration of a fire-lance on a
mid-10th century silk banner from Dunhuan.

I could go on, but why bother, you have your own fixations and
fantasies that reality would be hard pressed to combat.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:24:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff, it really hurts my feelings that you don't believe me.

Sorry. I meant to hurt your reputation, not your feelings. I'll try
to be more accurate next time.

>You seem to object "wasting" your time. So why do you do
>it if it isn't simply to attack anything I say?

I don't attack "anything" you say. I'm very careful to only attack
your contrived, fake, unsubstantiated or inaccurate so called facts.
When you indicate that something is your opinion, I say nothing.

>In which case how to you call that wasting your time?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem>
Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy
where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or
some other attribute of the person making an argument
rather than attacking the substance of the argument
itself.

That seems to be an accurate description of almost all of your
postings in this group. Sometimes, I wonder if you have a template
for your postings in R.B.T.
1. You start with a personal insult, usually suggesting that the
writer is so stupid as to not qualify for even having an opinion.
That's the ad hominem part, where you attack the author instead of the
content.
2. You then attack the most minor point of the article to which
you're replying. It's usually one of your "facts" very nicely
camouflaged to look like a genuine fact, but always lacking a source,
explanation, or substantiating evidence to prove your "fact".
3. Then, for reasons unknown, you change the topic to something
related to something you are familiar with. It's usually Covid, B52
trivia, current events or in rare cases, bicycles. I must compliment
you on your style as I've often read your postings and don't even
notice the transition. I guess practice makes perfect.
4. You end your posting with a yet another ad hominem attack, often
quite different from your initial attack, usually to accommodate the
change of topic. I guess this makes good filler. At no time do you
directly address the topic under discussion.

When you stop lying, stop misrepresenting your opinions as facts, and
cease the ad hominem attacks, then maybe I'll be able to again read
intelligent discussions in R.B.T.

>Face it - you are a freak show about to die and nobody cares.

Yep. That would be item #4 in the Kunich template.

For what it's worth, I had an unplanned midnight visit to the
Dominican ER and hospital about a month ago. Mild but consistent
chest pains for 3 days. I was kidnapped by friends who then dumped me
at the ER. I spent 14 hrs there getting tested for a variety of
cardiac related maladies. Nothing found. Near the end, my
cardiologist arrived and declared that I had paricarditis (infection
and inflammation of the paricardium sac that surrounds the heart).
After some antibiotic, I escaped. I'm scheduled for my 2nd Pfizer
booster shot on Dec 5, so the paricarditis was not caused by a
vaccination. The pains continued for 3 more days as they slowly
disappeared. I met with my cardiologist last week, who declared me
still alive. Prior to the cardiologist visit, I ordered a cardio
blood test (from DirectLabs.com) which only showed known issues.

[ About 30 minutes wasted. Well, maybe organizing Tom's writing style
wasn't a total waste. I might try to use it in my next few postings. ]





--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558