Climbing and descending

[Tom Kunich]

While I was in the bike shop yesterday there was another older guy ()younger than me if looks aren't too deceiving.) And he was talking about climbing getting too hard for him. Robby suggested an MTB double which I believe has a 31-44. That would give him a lower gear but I certainly have a hard time descending if I can't keep some pressure on the pedals. That's why I have gone up to a 52-36 crank. The climber was saying that he doesn't pedal most of the time descending anyway.

When I am well over my crank speed and am forced to coast I do it but I am always uncomfortable doing that. But I did hit 64 mph the other day while trying to dodge tree roots that have lifted the pavement. Lately when ever I do that section and am forced over into the other lane there is traffic going the opposite direction at ridiculous speeds. So I dodge around the tree roots and quickly dodge back into my lane before the driver tries to swerve around me in my lane.

California driving is getting more and more like that - at $6+ a gallon for gas the traffic isn't LESS but more. Any accident results in the other driver fleeing the scene. So you have to have full coverage on your car and that is almost 25% of what I paid for the car!

[Lou Holtman]

64 mph = 103 km/hr really? And you complaining about traffic while you descending like a maniak? Assuming it is true off course. Couple of weeks back I was in the Dolomites and I looked at my rides there. Max speed was on every ride between 60 and 65 km/hr and I’m not a slow descender.

Lou

[Roger Meriman]

Seems rather improbable TDF riders and even then only a select few, ie the
Tom Pidcock of the world plus some of the Sprinters at the back will ever
get close to such speeds on probably steeper hills, most will top out like
most of use 40ish MPH even if get the odd erroneous readings on devices.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While I was in the bike shop yesterday there was another older guy
> ()younger than me if looks aren't too deceiving.) And he was talking
> about climbing getting too hard for him. Robby suggested an MTB double
> which I believe has a 31-44. That would give him a lower gear but I
> certainly have a hard time descending if I can't keep some pressure on
> the pedals. That's why I have gone up to a 52-36 crank. The climber was
> saying that he doesn't pedal most of the time descending anyway.
>

MTB double is likely to be 26/36 which is fairly standard 44t is more
Gravel bike territory, my MTB has 26/38 chainring though it’s arguably
overgeared.

The Gravel bike 32/48 which is fast enough I’m heavy enough to gain speed
well, and good enough though the bends to hold speed certainly good enough
to drop off the mountain and quite a wait before the car that was tailing
me on the flat bit makes it’s entrance!

> When I am well over my crank speed and am forced to coast I do it but I
> am always uncomfortable doing that. But I did hit 64 mph the other day
> while trying to dodge tree roots that have lifted the pavement. Lately
> when ever I do that section and am forced over into the other lane there
> is traffic going the opposite direction at ridiculous speeds. So I dodge
> around the tree roots and quickly dodge back into my lane before the
> driver tries to swerve around me in my lane.
>
> California driving is getting more and more like that - at $6+ a gallon
> for gas the traffic isn't LESS but more. Any accident results in the
> other driver fleeing the scene. So you have to have full coverage on your
> car and that is almost 25% of what I paid for the car!
>

you have more control freewheeling as you can move around the bike and
maximise grip or tuck in and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I don't know exactly where I hit those speeds - I just noticed it on my max speed reading. There are several places it could have been where traffic wouldn't be a problem. I am not afraid of speed but I get nervous if there is traffic that is close. Of course it could be a bug in the software. For the most part on most of my rides a max speed of 80 KPH is about as fast as I go. Remember that this is HILLY. 7 or 8 years ago I would descend Palomares on the north side at 180 kph and make a 30 degree lane staying in my lane but then one time I saw a car exiting a driveway that would have been blind and then further down some horses ass was pulling out of a driveway backwards so he couldn't see if the way was clear and from that point on 80 kph became my max. But there is a 600 foot climb 3 miles from my house and the other side of that is usually wide open and you can take the traffic lane and even pass cars doing over the 45 mph speed limit.

[Tom Kunich]

On my max speed readings I have noticed just in the last couple of weeks 64 mph and 52 mph. I know where the 52 mph was and it was at the bottom of a long drop with a tailwind. But the other must have been over a short section where cars are tailing you and you swoop down this road and then up again almost to a standstill. At this point you lead into it peaking out your pedaling cadence so I guess its possible there. At that point cars can't pass you.

All of my high speeds are in long downhills with straight roads and long sight lines.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2023 6:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> 7 or 8 years ago I would descend Palomares on the north side at 180 kph ...

No you didn't, Tom. That's 111 mph. You did not do that. No paved road
is steep enough for that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 1:07:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

By the way - for every "world record" there are probably 100 guys that have broken records and never had any officials watching. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cycling_records shows that a man on a standard MOUNTAIN BIKE with all of the drag that entails went 104 mph (168 kph) So I put no faith whatsoever in bicycle speeds and I am not at all surprised that I could have peaked at 64 mph someplace which is an instantaneous reading.

[John B.]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 13:07:13 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

AND... it was 64 MPH dodging the bad places in the roads caused by

tree roots " that have lifted the pavement".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 20:51:42 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

As Tom seems to be saying that he pedals on the down hills I looked up
some figures for gear (sprocket) ratios and pedaling rates. I don't
have all the numbers but for a 50/12 tooth set at pedal rate of 100
RPM the speed is 48.45 KPH. As 64 MPH = 103 KPH so he must have been
pedaling at a rate of (103/48) X 100 = 214 rpm pedal rate.

Not bad at all for a bloke nearly 80 years old.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

Even so as John notes you’d be doing 200 rpm and even at a 10% grade would
need significant amounts of power calculators suggest 2k which really
doesn’t sound likely.

40mph with occasional 50mph is much more normal 50/70 does require effort.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 01 Oct 2023 07:00:01 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 1:51:46?PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

At 200 RPM I think my kneecaps would come loose and fly off.

[John B.]

On Sun, 01 Oct 2023 07:00:01 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 1:51:46?PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

The part that got my attention was (as above), "But I did hit 64 mph

the other day while trying to dodge tree roots that have lifted the
pavement."

I can't even begin to imagine someone that would do what he seems to
say is a normal practice for him.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

I think some very fast track sprinters can reach that! I used to top out at
130/140 on the SS bike further back in the thread though I’d be
significantly less now!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

Nah, it's easy. Just type 2-0-0 and if anybody tells you that's
impossible just block their posts. See? Now no one is disputing your
posts so they must be true (:-)

Or, you might have a friend ( of course you can't divulge his name )
stand on the side of the road and count the revolutions as you pass
by.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 01 Oct 2023 17:52:01 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I wouldn't have to block their posts, I could just snip them and say
the posts weren't worth responding to, and call him/her a troll.

>Or, you might have a friend ( of course you can't divulge his name )
>stand on the side of the road and count the revolutions as you pass
>by.

Assuming I had a friend who would do that.

[Tom Kunich]

If you're listening to some stupid old 90 year old fool whose life is in Thailand and who NEVER was a bicyclist perhaps you deserve the ideas you get. My Garmin noted a maximum speed of 64 mph period. If you do not want to believe that I have no power over your belief system.

[Tom Kunich]

You cannot do that cold, you have to build up to it. I did it several times descending hills in the big ring. I even did it once with a very strong tailwind. I don't suppose you have a whole lot of torque but you can keep up with the rear wheel.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 07:27:36 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sometimes, via the Garmin, I see my cadence show my max cadence over
110. I assume it's an error. I could never crank at 200 RPM, even when
I was 25 years old. My average cadence is 50 or 60 rpm. I'm a diesel,
not an F1 racer.

[Lou Holtman]

Whatever your Garmin noted 'But I did hit 64 mph (= 103 kmph) the other day while trying to dodge tree roots that have lifted the pavement' is a claim I don't believe. That are speeds that pro riders only can reach on special descents with no traffic with their belly on the top tube.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

200 rpm? No way.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Well, that is your body and your mind. Racing over Patterson Pass most of us in the lead group on the way down into Tracy were doing 200 rpm in the 52 - 14 I don't suppose that was very fast but it was fast enough for those days. I and another guy pulled out of the toe clips. I crashed on the uphill side and he crashed on the downhill side and into a barbed wire fence. The Peloton passed us and I went down and pulled the wire out of him so that he could get up. The way he crashed he didn't tear so much as just poked the tips into his skin which stopped his motion. But I suppose that he slowed a great deal hitting the dirt before the fence. I was pretty torn up though.

[Tom Kunich]

The section where I dodge tree roots is a half mile from the 10% STRAIGHT downhill where Skyline Avenue ends. There is a parking lot at the end if you cannot make the turn onto Grass Valley Road. That is NOT the section where I believe I hit 64 so why are you mentioning it? 10 miles before there is a 12% downhill sweeping turn to the left where that might have occurred. The Garmin records instantaneous speeds remember. After going down that road I coast a quarter of a mile to another uphill followed by 3 miles of downhill but not that steep.

[Tom Kunich]

The human body cannot generate a lot of torque at that speed but it can most assuredly do that.

[Lou Holtman]

I don't believe you hitting 103 km/hr. Look at Tom Pidcocks downhill and look at his speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99wJn5QBvyg

You're welcome.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/1/2023 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Racing over Patterson Pass most of us in the lead group on the way down into Tracy were doing 200 rpm in the 52 - 14 ...

No you weren't.

200 rpm isn't impossible - I clocked a guy doing it during a roller
riding demonstration - but it's a rare skill among road riders.

And it's a disadvantage on a descent. It's slower than tucking in and
coasting.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

That is not an open road and you can hear him putting the brakes on. You can also see him pedaling at 70 kph. And hitting 80 on that crooked road that doesn't look very steep to me.

[Lou Holtman]

Yeah, yeah with every post you sound more and more convincing that you hit 103 km/hr at an age of nearly 80 yo who had several hits on the head while the best pro riders hit 100 km/hr rarely on roads with no traffic and racing. On the Alpe d’Huez stage were Tom won and showed epic descent skills on the Col de Galibier and the Col de Croix de Fer he reached just 100 km/hr for only a couple of hundreds meters. So you are at an age of almost 80 yo a better descender than Tom Pidcock? I don’t believe you or anyone saying they hit 103 km/hr on a public road.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 07:23:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My Garmin noted a maximum speed of 64 mph period.

Did you balance your wheels? If no, I don't believe you can do 64
mph, especially on a road with "tree roots and lifted pavement".

The fastest downhill I've done (many years ago) was about 30 mph. I
couldn't go any faster because both wheels began wobbling and bouncing
around. Any faster and I would have lost control. For out of balance
wheels, there are speeds at which the rotation and bouncing are in
resonance. At the time, I decided it was easier to slow down than to
deal with frame alignment and wheel balancing problems.

"An Engineering Guide to Bicycle Wheel Balancing"
<https://www.hambini.com/an-engineering-guide-to-bicycle-wheel-balancing/

"Engineering Guide to Bike Wheel Balancing... Or anything that needs
statically balancing"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO_ywp-qvzA> (20:39)

"Balance your wheels" (11:58)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpSrrVV0XNE>

More videos on bicycle wheel balancing:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bicycle+wheel+balancing>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/1/2023 4:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 07:23:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My Garmin noted a maximum speed of 64 mph period.
>
> Did you balance your wheels? If no, I don't believe you can do 64
> mph, especially on a road with "tree roots and lifted pavement".
>
> The fastest downhill I've done (many years ago) was about 30 mph. I
> couldn't go any faster because both wheels began wobbling and bouncing
> around.

64 mph is physically possible, but it would be under very rare
conditions. Tom's other claim, 180 kph, is not.

My fastest speed ever was 54 mph, on a ride I led to the Ohio River.
I've broken 50 on that slope several times. I'd hoped to break 55 mph,
but a car was in my way. I had no problem with out of balance wheels.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 07:23:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 12:00:07?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 1:51:46?PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> >> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

No Tommy, my life was in the U.S., Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia
Singapore and Indonesia. And, I've ridden a bicycle in all of them,
although admittedly only a tiny bit in Vietnam.

While you still live in your mother's house, drive a second hand car
and ride junk bicycles that you buy off the net.

And lie about how fast you ride down hills.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

I think most people that made an effort have a top speed of around 80-90 km/hr (50-55 mph). Like you said even then you have to have 'special' conditions like:
- long straight 10% plus stretch,
- low traffic,
- good quality smooth asphalt
- tight aero clothes,
- aero position on the bike.

Everone who state that the can casually reach 100 plus km/hr has a faulty Garmin, an incorrect set wheel circumference or is not telling the truth. Like I said even Pro riders reach that speed seldom. I can remember Paolo Salvodelli (Il Falco) reaching 106 km/hr in a Giro d'Italia stage that he won because of his descending skills.

Lou

[Roger Meriman]

One of the just retired Pros noted that while folks who descend well and
win make news and have the cameras on them, that the back particularly the
sprinters descend well, though they focus on conservation of energy than
time down, ie no sprinting out of the bends! And would be more normal
weights is some in the 80kg range.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, what you're doing is showing how you don't ride in hills.

[Roger Meriman]

That’s attacking the person not the evidence, even the pros the speeds are
mostly within the normal levels ie 30/40mph on the ones that have open
strava accounts and what not. And some claims of very high speeds are a bit
dubious ie from the tv motor bike and all that.

In short the speeds are much lower, get few exceptional speeds but most is
much lower.

For example 35mph down the Welsh hills which is more than fast enough to
loose any car following, and even then I’m in the upper numbers on Strava.

Much like peak gradients that Strava/Garmin/wahoo etc might give you, it’s
worth being cynical as in both cases the data isn’t accurate enough.

Total time over say a mile or so yes but the max gradient/speed not so
much!

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Everything Lou wrote was 100% correct, and I would place his descending skills orders of magnitude better than yours (he at least has the Strava records to prove his skills). Not only did you _not_ recently hit 64 MPH (_especially_ while dodging road hazards LOL), but you've never spun 200 RPM in your entire life. I've only ever seen one person do that Ray Schultz - it was at a Roller Racing event years ago, and Ray was a member of the US Olympic pursuit team in the late 70's (qualified for the 1980 olympic team).

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, explain how absolute nobodies have set world speed records of ridiculous values? In 2018 a WOMAN motor paced up to 180 mph. In 2007 a man road an over-the-counter mountain bike down a ski slop at 130 mph.

Is there ANYTHING in your experience that would lead you to believe that this took anything other than courage? Pros DO NOT train by taking chances. Hurting yourself ends your career there and then. They do not train at high speeds and that stupid video that Lou cited SHOWED that pro braking in all of the corners. Why pretend that he couldn't go faster on a straight downhill of the same grade? Lou doesn't want to believe 64 mph on the Garmin simply because he doesn't ride in hills all of the time. So he has no idea that you can get used to descending on known routes.

Or you can believe that these people that set the records were very special and could ride MUCH better than pros.

[Roger Meriman]

It’s well science, folks generally bike races do occasionally use the Heads
of the valleys road which though in places steep gets into two digits
gradient in places but is wide and smooth so for a bike no braking. Even so
the very fastest with a long downhill descent gradient is 50mph.

> Or you can believe that these people that set the records were very
> special and could ride MUCH better than pros.
>

No a number of Pros have Strava accounts so you can see the speeds they
descend and even on closed roads they mostly descend at normal speeds, ie
30/40mph it’s the going up that is superhuman as you where!

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

Two weeks ago:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AfckEd95UPriAGyg7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ApxhJSvhhCA6WqEF6

Doing that for over 30 years. My max speed at the steep straight section of the Passo Fedaia 89 km/hr when I was much younger:

https://climbfinder.com/en/climbs/passo-fedaia-caprille

No you did not hit 103 km/hr. Keep saying that doesn't make it true and is just stupid.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, I have no doubt that you have gone out and ridden mountains, but there is a hell of a difference between doing that once in awhile and riding them all of the time. Is it your position that all of those speed records were set by super human beings? Come on now - a WOMAN motor pacing at 184 mph? On an MTB! Tell me again how this isn't possible.

[Lou Holtman]

I don't doubt that in special conditions with special equipment you can't hit high speeds, but that is not what we are discussing here and his no meaning, just gimmick. I was once on a biking holiday with Fred Rompelberg organisation who hit 268 km/hr on the Bonneville salt flats. He told us about his preparations, failed attempts, crashes etc. etc. Please show me that record of that woman. I'm curious.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I'd be interested on both "a WOMAN motor paced up to 180 mph. In 2007 a man road an over-the-counter mountain bike down a ski slop at 130 mph."

Also, why it was important to tom to write WOMAN instead of woman.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, I dug back through the Garmin records and found that number:

8.6 mph
Avg Speed
13.0 mph
Avg Moving Speed
64.8 mph
Max Speed

However, there is no spot on that particular course steep enough to allow that sort of speed on that ride. I believe that this was one of the rides where a friend drove us to the start of the ride and then I probably didn't turn the Garmin off on the return drive down the freeway. That didn't occur to me because he is a slow driver so he must have had to pull out rapidly into the traffic at that point.

[Frank Krygowski]

First, Denise Mueller-Korenek did motor pace to 184 mph on the salt
flats.
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a23281242/denise-mueller-korenek-breaks-bicycle-speed-record/
It's quite an accomplishment, but it has nothing to do with normal cycling.

I'm pretty sure the key fact with such motor pacing is that the rear
vortex formed by the pace vehicle gives the rider an actual tailwind.
Even at 184 mph, the rider is being blown forward. This effect is easy
to see by watching the hair of a person riding in an open convertible. A
similar vortex always pushes their hair forward.

This doesn't take away from Mueller-Korenek's accomplishment.
Synchronizing with the pace car, maintaining control and risking one's
life are all tremendously difficult.

OTOH, the "ski slop" 130 mph seems to be a figment of Tom's imagination.
There's this:
https://velo.outsideonline.com/mountain/downhill-mountain-biker-sets-new-speed-record-of-104mph/


And please note, that's on an extended 45% slope - a gradient of 100%.

Where did Tom hit his even higher speed?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/2/2023 4:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Lou, I dug back through the Garmin records and found that number:
>
> 8.6 mph
> Avg Speed
> 13.0 mph
> Avg Moving Speed
> 64.8 mph
> Max Speed
>
> However, there is no spot on that particular course steep enough to allow that sort of speed on that ride. I believe that this was one of the rides where a friend drove us to the start of the ride and then I probably didn't turn the Garmin off on the return drive down the freeway. That didn't occur to me because he is a slow driver so he must have had to pull out rapidly into the traffic at that point.

FWIW: In engineering school labs, it's not uncommon to record a spurious
data point. It happens.

Student are taught a lot about experimental errors, and computation
techniques as well as simple judgment are used to reject unreasonable
measurements.

Too bad you avoided education!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Typo. 45 degree slope. The gradient is 100%.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

This is what it takes to reach that kind of speed and he is a specialist. Watch the rpm.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=auqPIfVSUOM

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

The RPM is a bit meaningless since he is pumping out 250-300 watts. At 200 RPM you're not trying to pump out power but to keep up with the bike. This can happen as I said before when I had a very strong tailwind and a slight descent going from the hard climb on Coral Hollow Rd. back into Tracy. You can't START pedaling that fast - your legs loosen up after you try to keep up with the 53 tooth.

[AMuzi]

meh. Fast girls hit 120 MPH

https://www.audacy.com/wbbm780/news/local/chicago-woman-104-breaks-world-skydiving-record

Then again maybe you aren't old enough for that.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 10:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:00:03?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:45:46?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:09:18?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:56:56?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denise_Mueller-Korenek
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 10:36:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:21:02?PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:00:03?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:45:46?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:09:18?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:56:56?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

why was it important to write "tom" instead of "Tom" (:-?)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/2/2023 5:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> This is what it takes to reach that kind of speed and he is a specialist. Watch the rpm.
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=auqPIfVSUOM

Some of those curves appeared to be a one "gee" lateral acceleration.
Impressive. Scary!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

I wonder how much faster he would have gone had he had his hair short or tucked into a full aero-helmet like a time-trial helmet?

Can you image what a front tire puncture at such speeds on a curve would do? YIKES!

Cheers

[Lou Holtman]

It makes only sense to pedal when you output some power. What is the point of pedalling 200 rpm just to keep up with the bike? 'Normal' people just tuck in that situation. You are more stable and you go faster.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Does it matter if you go just 70 km/hr instead of 104 km/hr?

Lou

[John B.]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 22:50:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:55:00?p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:18:21?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:21:02?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:00:03?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:45:46?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:09:18?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:56:56?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

I don't think old Tommy's got much hair. But perhaps if he shaved his
mustache (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

He’s impressive quick he was the camera bike following Tom Pidcock down
Tuna Canyon and so on, don’t know his history to be honest but he’s clearly
fearless and skilled.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

It is a joy to watch him descent. My point was and still is that reaching 65 mph (104 km/hr) on a downhill is extremely rare and requires skills, lack of fear, good roads, no traffic and sufficient grade. It is possible like this guy shows but even he has to make an effort and most of the times he is in the 70-90 km/h range.

Lou

[Roger Meriman]

Absolutely he’s a outlier, looking at times that folks have used the dual
carriageway down the valley I grew up in, only one has touched 50mph and
that’s a few miles of gentle curving road with average gradient of 5%, and
it’s a somewhat self selecting ie only reason to use that road is speed,
and plenty of more interesting or more useful on a bike at least ways down.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

the same reason I refer to someone else as 'shit stain'.

> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

[Tom Kunich]

If women are the physical equal to men, then why don't they race with the men's teams?

[Tom Kunich]

What in your mind makes you believe that your way is the only way?

[Tom Kunich]

You've never ridden the death ride have you?

[Roger Meriman]

No idea! Though if local to you probably not!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/3/2023 1:50 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> I wonder how much faster he would have gone had he had his hair short or tucked into a full aero-helmet like a time-trial helmet?

I don't think the speed increase would be much at all, and probably not
even obvious. The overall drag coefficient of the bike+rider would not
decrease more than a few percent. That difference would be consumed by a
tiny increase in speed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

It may not be the only way. But physics says Lou's way is better.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Tommy thinks pedaling on high-speed descents makes you _more_ stable

>
> Lou

[Mark Cleary]

Garmin can get any individual speed completely wrong. As a long-time distance cyclist, I can say the fastest I have hit was 44 mph on a downhill from a Ski resort in MIchigan. It was like a 9% downhill grade. Granted it would probably have allowed 50 plus mph, but I was not going anywhere near that. At 44mph I felt every bit of it and given the road not about to try anything more.

This leads me to the belief that to hit 50 mph you need a very long straight road with almost no turns. The important thing is the tarmac has to be smooth and bounce at 50 could be fatal. Any gravel or obstacle can also be fatal. To me the key it tarmac surface and turns. Any turn with a bind spot will make the brakes go on fast. The exception is TDF riders who get the whole road and are pros with serious skills and nerves of steel.

I personally doubt even the average decent roadie ever hit about 50 much if at all. When you get 50 all the conditions have to be perfect. I will never forget the first time I was in the west near Bozeman in the mountains. I came on a big descending road that met all the conditions. Long, no turns, and no real traffic road surface good. I remember thinking " Oh I am going to set a personal record here how fast can I go." All of a sudden I was at 40mph and getting faster. I was freewheeling no way to keep that cadence up. All of a sudden it hit me that I better hit the brakes because I am getting panicky with this speed. Wiping out and hitting even a same road indention I am dead. I chickened out completely.

What it taught me was going faster would require numerous runs down the same descend to get familiar and comfortable. As I said my faster was on the Ski resort road in MIchigan but I road down it many times. Once a 44 was good enough for me.

Tom I don't think you hit 64 but your Garmin might have recorded this. If you did, you are one tough person because that is as fast as it gets.
Deacon Mark

[Tom Kunich]

Mark, I already analyzed the course and there was nowhere on that course open enough to be able able to hit speeds like that. Then I realized I must have left the Garmin on driving home from the start. The antiseizure medication I take messes up my memory. I rarely go over 40 mph these days because there is now traffic everywhere. This means that I cannot take the lane when I want to to increase my speed.

[John B.]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 13:18:26 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
<deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 12:03:28?PM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 2:20:46?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 12:29:39?AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 2:55:00?PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:18:21?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:21:02?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:00:03?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:45:46?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:09:18?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:56:56?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

Or perhaps it actually read 6.5 and poor old Tommy doesn't understand
them funny numbers (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[NFN Smith]

Lou Holtman wrote:
> I think most people that made an effort have a top speed of around 80-90 km/hr (50-55 mph). Like you said even then you have to have 'special' conditions like:
> - long straight 10% plus stretch,
> - low traffic,
> - good quality smooth asphalt
> - tight aero clothes,
> - aero position on the bike.

That's my experience.

My fastest is 50.5 mph. Many years ago, when I lived in Southern
California, I did a lot on the Angeles Crest. I don't remember the
grade percentage, but all of those factors apply, including that I had a
slight tail wind. Even then, that was not a sustained speed, just what
I could pick up with a quick glance at the speedometer in an all-out sprint.

When I would ride this road, I would go as fast as I could, simply
because I could, and average around 35 MPH.

This is also a road that the Tour of California used more than once, and
seeing on TV feeds, I noted that the pros were going down this without
really working. Yes, there's a difference between a pack of riders and
me going individually, but I did find it interesting that they were
expending a lot less effort.

For the run-out at the bottom of the hill (and the steepest part), I was
not able to catch the TV feed to see if the race course went straight to
the bottom (where there's a T intersection) or if they routed through
through a residential neighborhood, where the grade there is one of the
steepest I've ever done.

Smith

[Mark Cleary]

Lou that was a cook video and I don't think I could take those turns at 25mph he was going through in the 40's/
Deacon mark

[Lou Holtman]

Marc the same laws of physics apply for both of you.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

The laws of physics may be the same, but we each have our own tolerance
for risk, not to mention level of skill.

I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.

Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.

But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>

>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>
>
> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>
> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>
> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!

Less fear and more practice are good things.

Many years ago, when I had much less money, I re-roofed my house with
the help of my son. Another strong friend did his best to help by
carrying shingles up the ladder to the gutter level, but he was too
afraid of heights to go higher. He later began working as a carpenter.
After some time, he fearlessly walked the top 2x4 plate of stud walls.

And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
passing lane motorists freely use.

OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Krygowski can't stand it if people reject his advice and do what they
want to do instead of what he wants them to do.


"....people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble
handling anything they view as criticism. They can:

Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special recognition
or treatment.

Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted.

React with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to
make themselves appear superior.

Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior.

Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change.

Withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail.

Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection.

Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of
being
exposed as a failure.


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 2:30:31 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>
>
> Krygowski can't stand it if people reject his advice and do what they
> want to do instead of what he wants them to do.

Dumbass can't stand it that the only people in this forum not ignoring his demands to ostracize Frank are kunich and the shitstain.

> "....people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble
> handling anything they view as criticism. They can:
>
> Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special recognition
> or treatment.

Like when floriduh dumbass replies to Frank "LOOK AT ME DADDY LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!"

>
> Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted.

Like when floriduh dumbass claims not to need friends an be an introvert when it really just a shallow rationalization for the fact that no one can stand you in their presence.

>
> React with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to
> make themselves appear superior.
> Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior.
> Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change.

Like when floriduh dumbass butts into a conversation he's not part of for the sole purpose of insulting frank.

> Withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail.

Like when floriduh dumbass claims not want to participate in group activities claiming to be an introvert when it's really just a shallow rationalization for the fact that no one can stand you in their presence.

> Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection.

If there was ever a moody little bitch in this forum.....dumbass

>
> Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of
> being
> exposed as a failure.

Like when floriduh dumbass doesn't share any personal life details claims to be a 'private person' from being an introvert when it's really just a shallow rationalization for the fact his life is vapid, empty, and he attempts to fill the void by kunichesque fantasies.

> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

Alternative entry- See Catrike on rec.bicycles.tech

Yes, dumbass, Narcissus looked at his reflection and liked what he saw too.

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>
>>
>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>
>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>
>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>
> Less fear and more practice are good things.

As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.

Similarly some MTB stuff I’m not keen on such as big jumps and so on. While
I have done such stuff, ultimately it’s not my style I like more natural or
more likely old industrial stuff to ride up so I’m less likely to practice
or push my luck if I don’t enjoy it.

>
> Many years ago, when I had much less money, I re-roofed my house with
> the help of my son. Another strong friend did his best to help by
> carrying shingles up the ladder to the gutter level, but he was too
> afraid of heights to go higher. He later began working as a carpenter.
> After some time, he fearlessly walked the top 2x4 plate of stud walls.
>
> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
> passing lane motorists freely use.
>
> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>

For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.

Though very few such roads in london that also make sense to ride on, ie
tend to be bypasses for car so aren’t generally worth riding on anyway, as
they are going the long way around and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Remember that most racers are under 30 and its easy to be brave when you don't realize the consequences.

[Tom Kunich]

On my ride today with a 6% descent I was going to see how fast I could go on a descent that shallow. I got up just over 30 before the steeper part and there was some sort of road work and it was squeezed down to on lane with a flagman. I managed to slow it down and just get through the pinch before the reverse traffic was allowed. Without any of that I could have easily made 45 mph so high speed like I was talking about on 12% grades with much longer runouts is NOT unexpected.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I’m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn’t particularly troublesome.
>>>
>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>
>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>
>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>
> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road
> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don’t push it as
> well absolute speed or time down doesn’t bother me and the risks if it goes
> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.

Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
personal choice.

>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>
>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>
> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.

I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
credit union, as one example.

If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 21:11:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Why does it make you sad when other people do what they want to do
instead of what you want them to do?

>> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
>> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>
>I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>credit union, as one example.
>
>If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.

Many people have a pleasurable riding experience without doing what
you want them to do, Dummy.


--

Yes, little fella, I ride a Catrike, always alone, mostly on bike
trails, carrying a gun, and never without attaching my feet to the
pedals. Nowdays,I always truck my bike to where I start my ride. I
tried and found riding a bike to the grocery store and other routine
trips to be boring. I hope I am never reduced to riding like that.
I am arrogantly proud of my bicycle rides and all my other
accomplishments. As an introvert, I also value my solitude,
where I'm free to tune into my own inner monologue.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank is used to having the power of the grade over students and hence being able to force them to comply with his wishes. Most of them no doubt were as foolish as the things he publishes here. Actually I'm surprised that some student or another didn't kick his stupid face in. But in leu of that he STILL believes himself an expert in how others should live.

[Roger Meriman]

Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and
location ie some infrastructure isn’t road as such but being able to pass
through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.

But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible
to more people even see wee kids, it’s probably a few seconds slower as
though does have less junctions overall it also doesn’t have the draft
effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.

I’d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or
beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and
Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn’t dumb shit at a fairly regular
intervals, so I’ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don’t like
driving it either as well it’s just a tedious stop/start type of road.

>> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
>> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>
> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
> credit union, as one example.
>
> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
driveways and strip malls.

I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
bike riding.

[Roger Meriman]

It’s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!

I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don’t think Frank is claiming they
are particularly fun, more that they can be used. Which is where we agree.
Where we don’t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.

>>>> For that personally for myself it’s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>> works within the route? And why I’m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>
>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>
>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:58:55 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 21:07:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/2023 4:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/5/2023 12:51 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was always fine with high speeds, but not as much with cornering at
>>>>>>>> high lateral accelerations. Tilting 45 degrees at 30+ mph is scary for me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I?m happier on the MTB as the edge of traction is less of an edge, and more
>>>>>>> recoverable ie momentarily loosing a tire isn?t particularly troublesome.

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plus much bigger grip margins and all that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But racers are different and have much less fear, plus practice!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Less fear and more practice are good things.
>>>>>
>>>>> As ever depends on the situation and what you want to achieve. On a road

>>>>> bike at speed down a mountain I enjoy the descents but I don?t push it as
>>>>> well absolute speed or time down doesn?t bother me and the risks if it goes

>>>>> wrong for what gain? And I like smooth than point and squirt.
>>>>
>>>> Many of us find pleasurable thrill in speed, up to a point, and just
>>>> want to "achieve" some fun. Others just find fear. It's certainly a
>>>> personal choice.
>>>>
>>>>>> And I've known people who were OK riding two lane roads, but had to
>>>>>> really work to gain the nerve to ride on a four lane. Once they got some
>>>>>> experience, they found four lanes are often easier, because there is a
>>>>>> passing lane motorists freely use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH, as I've mentioned, we now have some new club members who are
>>>>>> afraid of riding anything but bike paths. It's limiting and sad.
>>>>>>
>>> Does depend on location certainly london has enough cycle infrastructure to
>>> get about on, though not wholly and differing degrees of segregation and

>>> location ie some infrastructure isn?t road as such but being able to pass

>>> through stuff ie cut throughs or Parks for example.
>>>
>>> But stuff like the London Embankment where certainly Westminster to the
>>> Tower was a dual carriageway ie 4 lane road, with in places some useless
>>> painted lanes, was the preserve of fast roadie types, which now with the
>>> wide (though arguably could be wider still) cycleway it is more accessible

>>> to more people even see wee kids, it?s probably a few seconds slower as
>>> though does have less junctions overall it also doesn?t have the draft

>>> effect or encouragement to keep up with traffic.
>>>

>>> I?d say though that 4 or 6 lane roads are more dubious in suburban or

>>> beyond areas, particularly if the speed and traffic is high, and is rushed.
>>> My old cycleway is one such place it runs parallel to the 4 lane road speed
>>> limit is nominally 40mph but it connects to a number of major roads and

>>> Heathrow so traffic essentially doesn?t dumb shit at a fairly regular
>>> intervals, so I?ve no desire to ride there, to be honest I don?t like
>>> driving it either as well it?s just a tedious stop/start type of road.

>>
>> Stop signs and lights is another reason I dislike riding suburban and
>> urban roads, and I don't even have to unclip when I stop. Another
>> reason, of course, is having to watch out for vehicles pulling out of
>> driveways and strip malls.
>>
>> I can't imagine why some people are so enthralled with that kind of
>> bike riding.
>>
>>
>It’s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross
>the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>
>I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the
>clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don’t think Frank is claiming they
>are particularly fun, more that they can be used.

Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
experiences."

> Which is where we agree.

Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
bicyclists.

>Where we don’t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.

I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
temporarily closed.

>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.

>>>>
>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>
>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>>
>Roger Merriman
>
>

It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
their faces and inhibiting their travel.

Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
solitariness.

[John B.]

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 07:14:41 -0400, Catrike Rider

Nope. Shortly after he bought his new electric car he was whining
about how could he carry two bikes as there wasn't any room in his new
car for them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn’t
really another way than a pleasant road to cycle on.

>
>> Which is where we agree.
>
> Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
> bicyclists.
>
>> Where we don’t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such
>> roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>
> I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
> from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
> temporarily closed.
>
>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>
>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>
> It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
> and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
> their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>

Don’t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy
that really has had its day.

> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
> solitariness.
>

I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 12:07:40 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> It?s even worse on foot where you can have multiple stages just to cross

>>> the road and will probably have to wait for all of them!
>>>
>>> I do occasionally ride into central london though generally avoid the

>>> clogged stop start bits, in fairness I don?t think Frank is claiming they

>>> are particularly fun, more that they can be used.
>>
>> Actually, he proclaims, above, that it's "limiting" to not ride that
>> way and that makes him sad. And below. he says that riding on roads
>> and highways "many more opportunities for pleasurable riding
>> experiences."
>
>I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn’t
>really another way than a pleasant road to cycle on.

Using a road for a route to somewhere implies bicycle riding as
transportation. I have a car and a truck for transportation, while my
bike riding is 100% hedonistic.

>>> Which is where we agree.
>>
>> Indeed, I haven't seen anyone denying that most roads can be used by
>> bicyclists.
>>

>>> Where we don?t is belief that with training everyone can and could use such

>>> roads, where as I while I do use them get that not everyone is going to.
>>
>> I rode a couple of miles on public roads just yesterday to get to and
>> from my favorite bike trail. My usual access to that trail is
>> temporarily closed.
>>
>>>>>>> For that personally for myself it?s more preference if x multiple lane road
>>>>>>> works within the route? And why I?m riding ie for pleasure or transport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't usually seek out four lane roads just for fun. But even on a
>>>>>> pleasure ride, sometimes I choose a four lane road to connect me from
>>>>>> one pleasant route to another. That happens every time I ride to the
>>>>>> credit union, as one example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If one has the knowledge and courage to deal with a greater variety of
>>>>>> roads, one gets many more opportunities for pleasurable riding experiences.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It appears to me that Krygowski has disdain for people who use cars
>> and trucks for transportation and that he enjoys waving his ass in
>> their faces and inhibiting their travel.
>>
>Don’t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy
>that really has had its day.
>
>> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
>> solitariness.
>>
>I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.

I don't understand the concept of bicycle riding as a social
pursuance. I see it as the other way around, i.e. "something to do
while being social." Kind of like playing card games.

>Roger Merriman
>

[Roger Meriman]

For me a bike absolutely can be transport, I can drive to work for example
but it’s a royal pain, for a number of reasons, and potentially unreliable
in terms of arrival time.

Equally due to my disability I’m limited in terms of driving and public
transport, so when I had something I wanted to visit some 20 miles into
london, car really isn’t a sane option, and unfortunately I can’t cope with
the tube, I don’t cope that well with busy public transport but tube is
just beyond what I can cope with now.

So I rode wasn’t particularly hard work, essentially parks and cycleways
for most part.

Shared hobbies interests fairly common I certainly ride more alone than in
a group but I do both and am even in a bike club and all that.

>> Roger Merriman
>>
>

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 14:40:31 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> I took that to mean using such roads to well make a route ie used as isn?t

>>> Don?t think so he is rather stuck in his ways and using cycling advocacy

>>> that really has had its day.
>>>
>>>> Everyone gets their enjoyment in their own way. I enjoy riding in
>>>> solitariness.
>>>>
>>> I do both, solo is often more goal oriented than social.

I rode my bike to work a few times, when it was only about 8 miles on
rural roads. That was a long time ago, but I'd actually done it
earlier when I was working in downtown Madison, Wi, near the Capital.
I stoped then when I got hit by the mirror on a schoolbus. It put me
in the ditch with a really sore shoulder and the handbars ripped off
my bicycle.

>> I don't understand the concept of bicycle riding as a social
>> pursuance. I see it as the other way around, i.e. "something to do
>> while being social." Kind of like playing card games.
>>
>Shared hobbies interests fairly common I certainly ride more alone than in
>a group but I do both and am even in a bike club and all that.

Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.

>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>
>Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/7/2023 7:40 AM, John B. wrote:
> Shortly after he [that is, I] bought his new electric car he was whining

> about how could he carry two bikes as there wasn't any room in his new
> car for them.

Damn, John, your memory really is getting bad! You are precisely 100% wrong!

What I said instead was that on of my absolute criteria for a car was
the ability to carry two folded bikes, two adults and two kids, plus
some additional luggage. I took along the bikes when shopping. The car I
bought does that, and has since carried a violin, a trumpet and a cello,
each in their cases.

I'm afraid you're more like Tom every day. Both of you need to take
notes if you hope to avoid looking like fools.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Rather depends on the club and the type of riding you do, some fast rides
will be folks rotating and will be rule based, others more social in nature
ie slowly rolling from cafe to cafe, I generally do gravel rides which
really means 2/3 max and really rules don’t really apply.

Ie as ever some take stuff way to seriously most much less so.
>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

The Florida tricycle rider obviously has a pathological problem
associating with other humans. His lifetime of rejecting and being
rejected by company gives him wildly distorted ideas of groups, clubs
and much else.

Even when I rode with the fastest club members, riding pacelines and
doing other long, fast rides there were no "rules" as such. There were
proper riding techniques, like maintain your line, warn others of road
hazards, stay out of people's blind spots, don't brake or swerve without
warning, etc. People learned those good practices mostly by observing
others. Those same good practices apply to the more relaxed rides I now
do with others. They're very sensible.

If a grumpy codger showed up for a ride and said "his rules" were
incompatible with the others, "his rules" would probably put others at
risk. He'd soon find himself riding alone. I suspect something similar
has happened many times in his life.

But hey, he mitigates his feelings of rejection by attacking his
betters, and telling fantasies of naked women he spontaneously meets!

(I think most horny teenage boys at least keep that stuff to themselves.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 14:13:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/7/2023 1:21 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>> Groups and clubs have rules. I make my own rules.
>>
>> Rather depends on the club and the type of riding you do, some fast rides
>> will be folks rotating and will be rule based, others more social in nature
>> ie slowly rolling from cafe to cafe, I generally do gravel rides which
>> really means 2/3 max and really rules don’t really apply.
>
>The Florida tricycle rider obviously has a pathological problem
>associating with other humans. His lifetime of rejecting and being
>rejected by company gives him wildly distorted ideas of groups, clubs
>and much else.

Assumes "facts" not in evidence... I have a very accurate
understanding of groups and clubs which is why I do my best to stay
clear of them.

Occasionally, I get drug into social affairs to satisfy my family and
friends, but they all understand when I leave before it's over. I have
little tolerance for the boring, senseless small talk that is common
in the affairs

>Even when I rode with the fastest club members, riding pacelines and
>doing other long, fast rides there were no "rules" as such. There were
>proper riding techniques, like maintain your line, warn others of road
>hazards, stay out of people's blind spots, don't brake or swerve without
>warning, etc.

Some people like to ride with their eyes and noses pointed directly at
another rider's ass. I'm not one of them.

>People learned those good practices mostly by observing
>others. Those same good practices apply to the more relaxed rides I now
>do with others.

....8 or 9 mile rides to a local coffee shop, where they can gossip
and jabber with the other group thinkers...

>They're very sensible.

Rules by any other name would smell as awful

>If a grumpy codger showed up for a ride

...never happen....

> and said "his rules" were
>incompatible with the others, "his rules" would probably put others at
>risk. He'd soon find himself riding alone.

Which is what I preferred all along.

> I suspect something similar
>has happened many times in his life.

Assumes "facts" not in evidence...

>But hey, he mitigates his feelings of rejection by attacking his
>betters,

The irony bell rings once again for little Frankie Krygowski.

>and telling fantasies of naked women he spontaneously meets!

I suspect such things are only fantasies for the guys who've never
experienced them. I suspect there are many in my age group who have.

Life was fun and exciting back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s for those of
us who weren't too timid to go out and find it.

>(I think most horny teenage boys at least keep that stuff to themselves.)

Don't be jealous, little man. It's so ugly.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm trying to imagine how Krygowski can call ANYONE else "pathological". The same guy who shits in his pants at the word AR15 because it is his belief that it is identical to an M4. That it is designed for killing humans. That the Military love them when they do not. Shooting people with a .22 is an invitation to being killed since almost anything can stop the bullet and even if it doesn't it causes minimal damage. In the meantime they are shooting American military with .30 calibers from an AK47.

Frank believes that wearing helmets prevents his favorite Communists from teaching bicyclists not to ride on the wrong side of the road.

Krygowski has "friends" that have done everything that could possibly be argued and they are proof that anyone he doesn't like is wrong.

He has to "prepare" himself to ride through neighborhoods that have minorities living in them.

He has done nothing with his life but teach and believes that makes him an excellent engineer.

He believes that he is making such a great living off of his college retirement that he doesn't need to worry about inflation.

Should we mention that he is happy using feminine pronouns for men?

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Krygowski's whole life is as stuffy as a smoker's laundry bag. I'll
bet he lived with his parent's while he was going to college.

[Tom Kunich]

I'd bet that he lived with his parents until he got married.