Please advise lest I clip in, can't unclip and fall over!

[William Crowell]

Right now I am using "Look"-type red plastic cleats. From what I am reading on the 'net, I think these have 9 degrees of float.

So I found an old pair of Performance Forte shoes in the back of my closet that have black plastic cleats that look similar to the red Look cleats but a little different, which I had forgotten that I even had (I think maybe somebody gave them to me but I never used them), and I'll be dipped if I can remember what pedals you are supposed to use with these. Are these the "Look" zero-degree-float cleats? Will they work in a normal Look-compatible pedal? I was going to try them, but I hate falling over.

Thanks, guys.

[AMuzi]

Try one foot in a pedal to check engagement & release while
standing on your other foot indoors. Very safe!

I have no idea- there were a lot of not-quite cleat formats
before Look's Delta patents expired.

Short answer if you want to use the old shoes and the old
cleats are worn or suspect: Just buy a new set of Delta cleats.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

Or just put the shoe in the pedal and see if it works. You can generate enough force just using your hands. Although no real indicator of what pedal the shoe was used with, Performance had all of its Wellgo Look knock-offs with their own cleats, but I think the cleat colors followed the Look color code and that they were Delta compatible.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Ease or difficulty of unclipping is controlled by the tension bolt on the pedal itself. The difference between the black and the red cleats is the amount of float. That's how far the cleat moves in the pedal before you're able to unclip.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

That's all true so far as it goes.

But OP noted "old" and so both Mr Beattie & I cautioned that
there were several not compatible similar shape cleat
formats at one time.

[Lou Holtman]

Cleats of unknown nature? Toss them and put new one on.


Lou

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 7:11:47 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> Right now I am using "Look"-type red plastic cleats. From what I am reading on the 'net, I think these have 9 degrees of float.
>
> So I found an old pair of Performance Forte shoes in the back of my closet that have black plastic cleats that look similar to the red Look cleats but a little different, which I had forgotten that I even had (I think maybe somebody gave them to me but I never used them), and I'll be dipped if I can remember what pedals you are supposed to use with these. Are these the "Look" zero-degree-float cleats? Will they work in a normal Look-compatible pedal? I was going to try them, but I hate falling over.

Bill, it sounds like you have Look Delta pedals. The red cleats are 9 degrees of float. This generally keeps you from slipping out of the pedal if you have a pedal stroke that rocks back and forth in the pedal. The black cleats are zero float and I've never seen anyone use them. I have a pair of Look CX-6 which are cyclocross pedals. These are heavier than most of the modern Delta pedals like the 206 but they ALWAYS are in the correct position to clip into - the back of them are heavy and always keep the hook eye of the pedal in the top position. This makes it pretty easy to get into the pedals. They also are easy to get for exit pressure.

I have changed completely over to Look Keo, so if you want these CX-6 just let me know. The Keo pedals are real easy to get into without looking (most of the time - this morning I must have picked up a pebble on the cleat and couldn't get into them. When I tipped the shoe to look at it it must have fallen out because it worked fine for the rest of the ride)

[Tom Kunich]

Look Delta, similar but not interchangeable Shimano (new style) and Look Keo. I would absolutely warn against buying ANY of the Made In China copies since I just had one set of those with bad threads just strip out of a crankset in mid-ride.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 7:29:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

I'm pleased to say that except for my hiking boots, all my shoes are compatible with all my pedals. :-)

- Frank Krygowski

[William Crowell]

My pedals are Dura Ace PD-6402s (heavy old things, but well-made, I think, because they seem to be lasting forever). So from what you guys are telling me, these are designed for a Look Delta cleat, apparently. I had always just called them "the early-style Look cleat". Now that I know their correct name, I can look up the details on the cleat pretty easily.

I tried Jay's suggestion of inserting the black cleats into the PD-6402s with my hand, but so far they are a no-go.

[AMuzi]

On 7/17/2021 3:02 PM, William Crowell wrote:
> My pedals are Dura Ace PD-6402s (heavy old things, but well-made, I think, because they seem to be lasting forever). So from what you guys are telling me, these are designed for a Look Delta cleat, apparently. I had always just called them "the early-style Look cleat". Now that I know their correct name, I can look up the details on the cleat pretty easily.
>
> I tried Jay's suggestion of inserting the black cleats into the PD-6402s with my hand, but so far they are a no-go.
>

Could be the pedal is stiff or rusted.
Could be you have the wrong cleat shape.
Could be you're not pressing hard enough.

[jbeattie]

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 1:02:04 PM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> My pedals are Dura Ace PD-6402s (heavy old things, but well-made, I think, because they seem to be lasting forever). So from what you guys are telling me, these are designed for a Look Delta cleat, apparently. I had always just called them "the early-style Look cleat". Now that I know their correct name, I can look up the details on the cleat pretty easily.
>
> I tried Jay's suggestion of inserting the black cleats into the PD-6402s with my hand, but so far they are a no-go.

Your PD-6402s are just re-branded Look pedals -- one of the rare instances when Shimano rebranded a product. Note the plate on the pedal and "Look patent product of France." It uses a Delta cleat for sure. Like Andrew says, you may need to push harder or follow his method of putting the shoe on your foot and giving it a go.

At the end of the day, buying new cleats is a simple and cheap option. Delta cleats are knocked-off, and you can get them cheap.

-- Jay Beattie.

[William Crowell]

"buying new cleats is a simple and cheap option"

Of course. I was just curious as the debbil WTH those black cleats are.

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 1:02:04 PM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:

> My pedals are Dura Ace PD-6402s (heavy old things, but well-made, I think, because they seem to be lasting forever). So from what you guys are telling me, these are designed for a Look Delta cleat, apparently. I had always just called them "the early-style Look cleat". Now that I know their correct name, I can look up the details on the cleat pretty easily.
>
> I tried Jay's suggestion of inserting the black cleats into the PD-6402s with my hand, but so far they are a no-go.

It is probably too hard to push in by hand. Putting the shoe on and with a regular shoe on the other foot stand over the bike fit the pedal in until you can feel it connected and then standing on it until a loud CLICK occurs will show you what it feels like to connect the cleat, Then twisting your heal outwards until it is disconnects will show you what the pressure is to disconnect.

Look. getting used to several different types of pedals over the last 10 years I must have fallen down a dozen times and I am presently 76 and close to 77. You know what? Shit happens. I get up again, apply second skin and carry on. I might be sore for a week or a month (I just fell over two weeks ago when I pulled out on the right side and overbalanced to the left) but that gives me plenty of reasons to be more careful. Its hard to get arthritis when you're expending all of your energy healing...

[Tom Kunich]

After a fashion. They were designed and manufactured by Shimano in Japan using the Look patent. 2nd manufacturer cleats are fine but 2nd manufacturer Look pedals ARE NOT. After you strip a crank out in the middle of nowhere you become a hell of a lot more particular about pedals.

But from the sound of it Bill probably should be using SpD mountain pedals anyway. The M540's are easy to get into and out of and I never managed to pull out and yet I never came to a stop without being able to twist out easily.

[jbeattie]

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:01 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 1:38:06 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 1:02:04 PM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> > > My pedals are Dura Ace PD-6402s (heavy old things, but well-made, I think, because they seem to be lasting forever). So from what you guys are telling me, these are designed for a Look Delta cleat, apparently. I had always just called them "the early-style Look cleat". Now that I know their correct name, I can look up the details on the cleat pretty easily.
> > >
> > > I tried Jay's suggestion of inserting the black cleats into the PD-6402s with my hand, but so far they are a no-go.
> > Your PD-6402s are just re-branded Look pedals -- one of the rare instances when Shimano rebranded a product. Note the plate on the pedal and "Look patent product of France." It uses a Delta cleat for sure. Like Andrew says, you may need to push harder or follow his method of putting the shoe on your foot and giving it a go.
> >
> > At the end of the day, buying new cleats is a simple and cheap option. Delta cleats are knocked-off, and you can get them cheap.
> After a fashion. They were designed and manufactured by Shimano in Japan using the Look patent. 2nd manufacturer cleats are fine but 2nd manufacturer Look pedals ARE NOT. After you strip a crank out in the middle of nowhere you become a hell of a lot more particular about pedals.

Or you pay attention to installation torque. I dumped my PD-6402s because I bent a spindle and didn't like the feel of riding on a bent spindle. I broke the spindle on a later set of Look pedals, which was an eye-opener. It was mostly downhill going home, but I did get a chance to work on my one-leg pedaling technique. I had a Keo come apart in the middle of suburban wine country. https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/34/2016/04/Penner-Ash-630x417.jpg The axle retaining nut/ring that screws into the pedal body kept backing out, and I had to stop every few miles and tighten the body back onto the spindle. This was on a set of pedals fresh out of the box. Later Keo has been perfect, but I was about to switch back to Shimano.

> But from the sound of it Bill probably should be using SpD mountain pedals anyway. The M540's are easy to get into and out of and I never managed to pull out and yet I never came to a stop without being able to twist out easily.

And they're double sided. You don't have to think much about getting into them. And the shoes are walkable.

-- Jay Beattie.

[William Crowell]

I had a Keo come apart.....

In 1979 I was doing a ride with a friend who was using Cinelli pedals. When we sprinted for the city limits sign, one of his pedal spindles broke off and he started weaving from side to side, trying valiantly to correct the initial upset, but his efforts were to no avail. He couldn't keep from weaving worse and worse as he overcorrected each time, until he finally fell over and broke his clavicle, and I had to take him to the hospital. What a drag. It was like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

[AMuzi]

On 7/17/2021 3:59 PM, William Crowell wrote:
> "buying new cleats is a simple and cheap option"
>
> Of course. I was just curious as the debbil WTH those black cleats are.
>

If you have a few known format road cleats and a caliper you
can know that.

You can also just compare with your new Delta cleats once
you buy a set because you really only need to know whether
they are or are not Delta compatible.

[AMuzi]

PD-7401 were neither designed nor made in Japan.
PD-7401 are very clearly marked:
LOOK PATENT
PRODUCT OF FRANCE

It's cast into the body, on top, just in front of the
backplate. This is true and a required marking for duty
purposes.

The original cleats are black nylon, also French made.

[Tom Kunich]

I said that they were made under a Look patent that made them "a product of France". They were made in Japan by Shimano and didn't look very much like a Look pedal. I used to use them exclusively because they were slightly easier to get into than the older Look pedals of that time. And they were cheaper. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1041/1160/products/DSC_0039_3186bb1c-fa3a-4eec-8708-b5dd8a26dd6b_grande.JPG?v=1531224304

From about the same time the Look pedals made in France looked like these:
https://cicli-berlinetta.com/product/look-pp247-grey-road-racing-pedals-delta-9-16-x-20-1990s-made-in-france/

[jbeattie]

Since when does "product of France" mean "product of Japan." Marking country of origin is a legal requirement and does not refer to the jurisdiction where the patent is filed. Look continued to make Shimano pedals in France after the first generation. Just admit that -- or post some link to the contrary.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Where does it say on a PD7402 "Made in France"?

[jbeattie]

PD7401. Did you not read Andrew's post? Behold: https://www.theproscloset.com/products/vintage-shimano-dura-ace-pd-7401-road-bike-pedals-clipless-spd-sl

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Doesn't say that because there's no such thing.

PD-7400 take 3-bolt toeclips:
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=a0a08e3f-1fe1-4c36-9fa0-71a9cf83af7d

PD-7401 is a Look product:
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=df177c1b-738b-4cb2-9df5-60c300894bbf

Shimano will likely never use the number PD-7402 because
they don't generally add to defunct component series. New
designs for a Dura Ace series road pedal, if they so
decided, would be PD-91XX.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Sheesh! Now Tom is talking about a pedal with a toe-clip no a clipless pedal. Shimano PD-7402 is not a clipless pedal. It's a triangular Dura Ace Pedal with toe clips.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

And not to be the schoolmarm, the toe-clip pedal was the 7400. 7401 was the clipless, and 7410 was an SPD road pedal, e.g. http://www.cadre.org/bike_stuff/Shimano/Catalogs/1993/CCI00002.jpg 7401 was a Look pedal unless at some point Shimano took over production in Japan for a later iteration of the 7400 group. https://velobrico.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/img_1765.jpg?w=1410&h=870&crop=1 I have not seen a Japanese 7401, and my pedal from '90-ish was clearly made in France unless "Product of France" actually means "Product of Japan."

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Sorry to be pedantic but part numbers are quite definitive.

Would you please link an image of PD-7402 when you find one?

[jbeattie]

As an aside, PD-6402 was the Ultegra clipless. http://www.cadre.org/bike_stuff/Shimano/Catalogs/1993/600/CCI00001.jpg I said I had one of those, but I actually had/have (one) Dura Ace PD-7401.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 1:16:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

I know that the 7400 was what we called a clip pedal that also used a plastic device on the bottom of the shoes as well as normal straps. But the PD 7401 (which is what I originally had) are http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=df177c1b-738b-4cb2-9df5-60c300894bbf

While there was a similarity to Look pedals and I believe that they were made under the Look patent, they were MADE IN JAPAN. There was a similarity but not identical casting for the clipless pedals. You can still buy these things off of Ebay. There is a plate on the pedal and it says "Look Patent" and "Product of France" This is different from "Made In France" in a trance.

Why would you suppose that Look would make a pedal much finer than their own for Shimano?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234090731179?hash=item3680e516ab:g:7iQAAOSwyAxg408A
https://www.ebay.com/itm/313566954438?hash=item49020c03c6:g:iCoAAOSwV0hgyMt3

I used Look Pedals for awhile after I came back from my concussion. But I never saw any Look pedal with a plate on the face like the one on Shimano 7401 and 6401

[Tom Kunich]

After reading Jay's comments it is plain where my number mixup came - the DuraAce was 7401 and the SAME pedal of Ultegra grade was 6402.

But the quality of the early Shimano clipless pedals completely outclassed anything that Look was making at the time.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I don't know where I saw the image of what was purported to be a PD-7402 pedal. Should I come across it again I'll include the link. Perhaps the pedal was mis-identified?

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

I think that you made the same mistake I did. The Ultegra pedal which was pretty much identical was the 6402 while the Dura Ace was a 7401. Live and eventually remember.

[jbeattie]

"Plastic device" is called a "cleat." A "slotted cleat" to be accurate.

>
> While there was a similarity to Look pedals and I believe that they were made under the Look patent, they were MADE IN JAPAN. There was a similarity but not identical casting for the clipless pedals. You can still buy these things off of Ebay. There is a plate on the pedal and it says "Look Patent" and "Product of France" This is different from "Made In France" in a trance.

Wrong. "Product of" or "made in" are both designations of country of origin. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2019-title19-vol1/xml/CFR-2019-title19-vol1-part134.xml If it were made in Japan, then that would have to appear on the pedal, e.g. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/acIAAOSwBYpdmdAk/s-l1600.jpg

> Why would you suppose that Look would make a pedal much finer than their own for Shimano?
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/234090731179?hash=item3680e516ab:g:7iQAAOSwyAxg408A
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/313566954438?hash=item49020c03c6:g:iCoAAOSwV0hgyMt3

Shimano partnered with Look, and it could have specified a different appearing pedal or even different mechanicals. The pedal, however, was made in France, probably a condition of the licensing agreement. Let me know if you find anything that spells out the agreement.

Shimano filed its own patent in 1989. https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5060537.pdf I don't know how it is not infringing. The "new art" was the ability to release pulling up without twisting. By then, however, they were already in a licensing agreement with Look -- and probably looking for a way out, and then they came up with SPD, which they didn't have to license. They dumped the Look format and then reintroduced it with the SPD-SL in 2002, apparently different enough not to be patent infringing.

> I used Look Pedals for awhile after I came back from my concussion. But I never saw any Look pedal with a plate on the face like the one on Shimano 7401 and 6401

Me neither. I was wrong to call it a re-branded Look because the Shimano design was different. It used the same cleat, however, which was the original point.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Nope Tommy, you get it wrong again. To be labeled "Made in XXX" the
device, or a major portion of it must be actually manufactured in the
country labeled.

Example: In the U.S. to be labeled "Made in USA" the product must be
entirely or virtually entirely made in the United States.
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard.pdf

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

PD-6207 New 600 EX was a 3-bolt toeclip pedal. They skipped
a 6208 series pedal.

Adding the cleat-under-front-edge feature, the revised model
became PD-6400 along with a 'cartridge' type spindle = no
outer dust cap.

Look France supplied PD-6401 Delta pedal in white.
PD-6402 adds the backplate float adjuster in grey finish.

[Tom Kunich]

I guess I'm not really clear on what you're saying. I remember those crappy Shimano clip pedals. I really can't remember anyone using them though I suppose the racers did. At that time I was learning every place to stop and rest on the climbs in the bay area. I still recognize them as I ride past them now. But I DO remember the Shimano Clipless pedals because they were so much better than the Look. No one here was using Look after the Shimano pedal came out. The difference was night and day.

Are you saying that Look sent a casting and that Shimano supplied the internals?

[AMuzi]

Before Look, everyone in competition used toeclip pedals.

No, I said nothing of the sort because I don't know that.

"Product of France" is a legal statement for duty purposes
and I assure you from painful experience it's best to be
dead honest in that regard. No one cast "France" into a
Japanese product, not then, not now.

[Tom Kunich]

But we are still left with the case that the Shimano 7401 was vastly superior to the Look pedal in every way for over a decade. I suppose that if you wished to use an Arc pedal system the Shimano still is. Keo on the other hand is better in my opinion because it is so much easier to get into.

[jbeattie]

The 7401 was out of production in '95 or '96, and by then, Look was making a fine pedal -- depending on where you bought in the product line-up. If you bought junk at the bottom of the line, you could get release issues -- like inadequate spring tension. Race-worth Look-branded pedals of the mid to late 90s were lighter than the PD-7401 and had a better lean angle. I have no idea about the internals, except that Look had dumped the end-cap and went with the cartridge design.

Look QC may not be the best, and Shimano does make a fine pedal -- and certainly a worthy competitor to the Keo. My son prefers the Shimano, but I can't remember why -- I think it has to do with the optional longer spindles.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Where was I arguing that Look didn't eventually MAKE a good pedal. But when the PD 7401 came out the Look pedals were no where near the quality. It was many years AFTER that Shimano pedal before the Look pedals even got close to that quality. I had and entire cabinet full of virtually all of the Look pedals from the time they started until the time they changed to Keo. I even still have 206's on a couple of bikes that I have up for sale and I have two sets of CX-6's in the cabinet. CX-7's were the change to the Keo format.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:29:03 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> They dumped the Look format and then reintroduced it with the SPD-SL in 2002, apparently different enough not to be patent infringing.
>

> -- Jay Beattie.

I'm going to argue with you on this point. I did not use Google to look up anything. But back in early 1998 I bought a new bike. A wonderous bike from Waterford made with Reynolds 753. New rounded hoods Campagnolo Chorus grouppo. Beautiful. But I desecrated the bike by putting Shimano SPD-SL pedals on it. Dura Ace I think. The finest European and American bike ever. With Japanese pedals. I felt like putting a bag over my head. But the pedals worked (still work) really, really great.

You being a lawyer you would know how long patents last. Look came out with their 3 bolt delta cleat in the mid 1980s. Mid, late 1990s the patents would have expired allowing Shimano to create its own Look copy pedal.

[James]

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers-guides/shimano-spd-vs-spd-sl/

"Shimano’s first clipless pedal, the Dura-Ace 7401, arrived in 1987,
with a Look-compatible cleat licensed from the French company. The SPD-R
design followed but it wasn’t until the 2003 model year, and the launch
of the 7750 Dura-Ace pedal developed with input from Lance Armstrong,
that Shimano landed on the SPD-SL."


--
JS

[jbeattie]

I don't know exactly when the 7401 went out of production, probably with the introduction of the 7700 group in '96. By 1998, I was buying Ultegra, and it was 6500 -- and it was an SPD design pedal (I was using Look and not road SPD). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZmyaoqCYAIZteL?format=jpg&name=large Maybe Russell got a NOS 7401. They were still popular.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

I just looked up the years of introduction of the Look pedals. By 2007 the Look PP 247 was STILL nowhere near the quality of the 7401. So the intimation that the 7401 was made by Look is so far out of kilter than I cannot believe that Look even supplied the castings. To me I do not believe that "Product of France" and "Made in France" are the same thing. Look NEVER had any pedals of the quality of the 7401 until they brought out the Keo. And believe me, I had every pedal that Look every made.

[jbeattie]

Read the import regs that I linked. "Product of" and "made in" are synonymous and both acceptable designations of country of origin. But believe what you want -- as you always do.

I would be interested in actual facts about the licensing and manufacturing agreement between Look and Shimano, and the negotiations that must have been going on with Shimano filing its own patents in 1989. But you're not going to find that kind of detail on line. By 2007, SPD-SL was on the market and Look had moved to Keo. The PP 247 was old hat.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

On 7/21/2021 11:00 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 9:10:47 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 5:47:40 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
>>> On 20/7/21 10:34 am, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:29:03 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> They dumped the Look format and then reintroduced it with the
>>>>> SPD-SL in 2002, apparently different enough not to be patent
>>>>> infringing.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to argue with you on this point. I did not use Google to
>>>> look up anything. But back in early 1998 I bought a new bike. A
>>>> wonderous bike from Waterford made with Reynolds 753. New rounded
>>>> hoods Campagnolo Chorus grouppo. Beautiful. But I desecrated the
>>>> bike by putting Shimano SPD-SL pedals on it. Dura Ace I think. The
>>>> finest European and American bike ever. With Japanese pedals. I
>>>> felt like putting a bag over my head. But the pedals worked (still
>>>> work) really, really great.
>>>>
>>>> You being a lawyer you would know how long patents last. Look came
>>>> out with their 3 bolt delta cleat in the mid 1980s. Mid, late 1990s
>>>> the patents would have expired allowing Shimano to create its own
>>>> Look copy pedal.
>>>>
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers-guides/shimano-spd-vs-spd-sl/
>>>

>>> "Shimano’s first clipless pedal, the Dura-Ace 7401, arrived in 1987,

>>> with a Look-compatible cleat licensed from the French company. The SPD-R

>>> design followed but it wasn’t until the 2003 model year, and the launch

>>> of the 7750 Dura-Ace pedal developed with input from Lance Armstrong,
>>> that Shimano landed on the SPD-SL."
>> I don't know exactly when the 7401 went out of production, probably with the introduction of the 7700 group in '96. By 1998, I was buying Ultegra, and it was 6500 -- and it was an SPD design pedal (I was using Look and not road SPD). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZmyaoqCYAIZteL?format=jpg&name=large Maybe Russell got a NOS 7401. They were still popular.
>
> I just looked up the years of introduction of the Look pedals. By 2007 the Look PP 247 was STILL nowhere near the quality of the 7401. So the intimation that the 7401 was made by Look is so far out of kilter than I cannot believe that Look even supplied the castings. To me I do not believe that "Product of France" and "Made in France" are the same thing. Look NEVER had any pedals of the quality of the 7401 until they brought out the Keo. And believe me, I had every pedal that Look every made.
>

Nothing wrong with PD-7401 but it's not the only nice Look
pedal. I like my Record Look:

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=dba5f31b-b73b-4f41-ad1a-183d7f641e2f&Enum=109

[William Crowell]

Wow, I guess I don't know my derriere from a hole in the ground about the Look pedal systems. Therefore when I go to my LBS soon to buy some new Delta cleats, I'm going to ask the proprietor to clue me in totally about the Look product line, because it is about time that I learned this stuff!

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 6:32:15 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> Wow, I guess I don't know my derriere from a hole in the ground about the Look pedal systems. Therefore when I go to my LBS soon to buy some new Delta cleats, I'm going to ask the proprietor to clue me in totally about the Look product line, because it is about time that I learned this stuff!

Probably a better idea to change over to Look Keo pedals which are all around better.