Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

[carl...@comcast.net]

It's easy to explain Schrader valves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve

"Around 1890, after reports of English cyclists' success using
pneumatic tires, August Schrader saw the need for a bicycle tire
valve. By 1891, he produced the Schrader valve. The Schrader valve was
his most popular invention, and is still used today. August’s son,
George, is generally credited with the experimental work that resulted
in the valve's creation."

"Later in 1896, Schrader patented the tire valve cap. Soon after, tire
valves for automobiles were introduced.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Schrader

Here's the patent for the Schrader valve:

http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/04/the_schrader_va.html

Woods valves are harder, being known also as "English" valves and
"Dunlop" valves. Why are they called "Woods" valves, who invented
them, and when?

And what's the story on presta? Or Presta? There are vague rumors of
France, but also an ugly possibility that the English Preston-Davies
Valve and Tyre Company is lurking in the family tree:

http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=hpv.10706.0012.eml

When I looked in "Bicycles & Tricycles," Sharp shows a "Dunlop" valve
next to another valve in figures 535 and 536. The final paragraph of
the chapter on "Tyres" reads:

"Wood rims are seriously weakened by the comparatively large hole
necessary for the valve-body B. Figure 536 shows a valve fitting,
designed by the author [Sharp himself], in which the smallest possible
hole is required to be drilled through the rim."

It seems unlikely, but am I using what should be called a Sharp
instead of a presta?

Morley Brothers seems to scorn anything but red-blooded American
Schrader valves:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/morley/10.jpg

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/morley/11.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Ned Mantei]

In article <di6c73hk4lgj0da1p...@4ax.com>,
carl...@comcast.net wrote:

snip

>
> And what's the story on presta? Or Presta?

snip
>
> Carl Fogel

For what it's worth, here in Switzerland Presta valves are colloquially
called "French valves" ("franzoesische Ventile").

Regards,
Ned

[Muhammad Sarwar]

Everyone can get to know everything about Schrader Valve to follow this article. https://bikereviews.info/schrader-valve/ . I personally found this article very informative. Cheers.

[Tim R]

Not mentioned in this article, but I've been told they were invented for airguns. When the hammer strikes the pin the air is released and shoots the bullet.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Nice article from 2007. There seems to be some individuals, who fail
to appreciate todays issues, and find comfort in raising old issues
which are dead and buried. Since I can't offer a solution, I might as
well become part of the problem.

I doubt the air gun theory because air gun pressures are much higher
than bicycle or automobile tire pressure:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun>
High pressure air at 4,900 PSI. Commodity 12 gram CO2 cylinders are
pressurized to 853 PSI.
<https://www.alzgas.com/Why-Should-You-Choose-a-12g-CO2-Cartridge-id3648259.html>
Larger 88 gram CO2 cartridges at 4000 psi.
<https://www.sefic.com.cn/29CC-18g-CO2-cartridges-CO2-gas-cylinder-size-chart-id580752.html>
I suppose a Schrader valve might work in an air or CO2 gun, but only
for one shot. Presta probably won't work because it has to be
unscrewed in order to be opened and is probably too flimsy.

It might be possible using aviation Schrader valves:
<https://www.aviatorshotline.com/corporate-aircraft-article/valve-cores-aviation-applications>
"The typical Schrader valve that we find in aviation tire applications
is usually part number 6035 which has a standard operating pressure
from 0 to 400 PSI and a normal operating pressures normally not over
70 PSI. However, the typical Schrader valve that we should find in an
aviation shock strut or hydraulic accumulator should be Schrader part
number 2300TV. This valve has an operating pressure from 0 to 2000
PSI."

Another problem is that the air flow through the Schrader valve is
limited by the diameter of the valve. (Venturi restriction and
Bernoulli's principle). That's why it takes a while for the air to
empty out of a bicycle or automobile tire. For an air gun, one would
want to the air to release suddenly and probably explosively. For
that, one needs a rather large bore air valve, but not so large that
it destroys the projectile:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=pumpkin+cannon+design&tbm=isch>

Spoiler: It's usually a butterfly valve and pneumatic actuator.
<https://assuredautomation.com/news-and-training/pumpkin-chunkin-valve-assembly/>
"A local college was designing an air cannon to launch pumpkins for
their engineering class project. They were looking for a large
diameter valve with a fast acting actuator to provide the air capacity
they needed."

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

Launching pumpkins in an air cannon is an excellent image.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

On 2/6/2022 12:02 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:

https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline

Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.

"QEV air gun rifle valve update and large schrader valves"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrP5yCARMqg>
Not exactly a high power air gun, but it does use a Schrader valve.
More by the same author:
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6j1p7AqiT7Md8A65w7z-aQ/videos>
Looks like he's done quite a bit of experimenting with QEV (quick
exhaust valve) designs. I didn't dig through all the videos in depth,
but the only one I could find that uses a Schrader valve is the first
YouTube link. Kinda looks like he's abandoned the Schrader valve
idea.

This design uses a Schrader valve but only to fill the tank:
"PVC Dual Shot Air Gun"
<https://www.instructables.com/PVC-Duel-Shot-Air-Gun/>
There are plenty of other air guns that do the same thing.

More later. Lunch, then splitting some more firewood.

[Tim R]

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>

No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.

The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.

Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.

The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.

[Tom Kunich]

The Presta Valve was invented by Sclaverand, who worked for a French company called Morin, which merged with a company named Poutrait in 1935 to form the company we know of today as Zefal. As someone else mentioned, rims were originally made of wood. I have had several track wheels which used wooden rims. Track tires over time became thinner and thinner until they were using 20 or even 18 mm tires. These rims needed the narrowest possible valve and so the French complied.

[Frank Krygowski]

Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
lot of respect.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 2/6/2022 10:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Nice article from 2007. There seems to be some individuals, who fail
> to appreciate todays issues, and find comfort in raising old issues
> which are dead and buried. Since I can't offer a solution, I might as
> well become part of the problem.

Invented by Frederick J. Presta in the 1930's.

[Tom Kunich]

Scharf, we don't need any of your bullshit. This is why you're nothing more than a political tool.

[John B.]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 06:22:53 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> >https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>
>
>No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.

The oldest existing mechanical air gun, a bellows air gun dating back
to about 1580, is in the Livrustkammaren Museum in Stockholm.

>The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>
>Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>
>The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.

The original Schrader valve design was invented in 1891, and patented
in the United States in 1893.

So the airgun predated the tire valve by some 311 years. Slow learners
them tire people (;-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
(13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
pistol.

In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.

[Luns Tee]

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:06:24 AM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Presta Valve was invented by Sclaverand, who worked for a French company called Morin, which merged with a company named Poutrait in 1935 to form the company we know of today as Zefal. As someone else mentioned, rims were originally made of wood. I have had several track wheels which used wooden rims. Track tires over time became thinner and thinner until they were using 20 or even 18 mm tires. These rims needed the narrowest possible valve and so the French complied.

According to Zefal, Sclaverand was bought out by Morin. Yes, he presumably worked for Morin following that, but it's not clear whether the valve was invented before or after that. I'm a little surprised to not find an original patent for the valve as used for bicycle tires. The one patent cited on the Wikipedia page is actually for a floor pump with a pressure gauge, and the checkvalve for said pump is similar to (conical seal on a free moving unsprung rod), but appears to be significantly larger than, the valve we now know as Presta.

I'm actually a little surprised by this patent. I seem to recall claims that Silca had invented the idea of having a pressure gauge built into the pump - ie the Silca Pista - however that would have been decades after Sclaverand's patent. I think it would be reasonable to say that Silca _introduced_ (e.g. to its product line, or to a market where it wasn't already commonplace) such a pump and that had subsequently been misinterpreted as inventing.

Sclaverand patent GB189709082A: Improvements in Pumps for Inflating Pneumatic Tyres and the like.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DGB189709082A

Sclaverand->Morin, AFA->Poutrait yadda yadda
https://www.zefal.com/en/about

The closest I could find to a patent for the valve was assigned to Morin (the person) with no reference to Sclaverand. This covers having lugs on the rod to prevent rotation, allowing the screw down locknut. The proportions do not look like a modern tire valve, and it may just be intended as a general pneumatic valve not targeting tires.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/001443743/publication/FR398743A?q=FR398743A

The next oldest patent of relevance I found was from 1953, was for improvements to the Sclaverand valve, and looks very much like a modern valve.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/009608596/publication/FR65696E?q=pn%3DFR65696E

While in the Morin rabbit-hole, I was also surprised to find a multi-stage floor pump - from 1903! At first glance, this looks much like the side-by-side Zefal double-shot floor pump, but closer inspection shows that the two barrels are themselves concentric double-acting pumps, with the hollow piston-rod that Jobst claimed hadn't been discovered until him.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/001377320/publication/FR327328A?q=FR327328A

I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1) than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force expected from the user. I have to think about it some more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow stretching one or the other constraint, though probably not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have bothered with having even a second stage.

[Frank Krygowski]

Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 2/8/2022 1:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>
>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>
>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>
>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>
>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>> lot of respect.
>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an

>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber

>> pistol.
>>
>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>

I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
(who knew?

Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

[Tom Kunich]

They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/8/2022 3:17 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
>
> I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1) than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force expected from the user. I have to think about it some more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow stretching one or the other constraint, though probably not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have bothered with having even a second stage.

I didn't remember anything about Jobst and a concentric pump. Digging
around yielded this:
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/jobst/000.html#jobsts-double-acting-pumps

Apparently the idea was to use the upstroke to somewhat pressurize the
main "delivery" cylinder, and use the downstroke to further raise that
pressure and pump it into the tire or tube.

Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone else? I know
there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK they don't use the same
two stage operation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(ISTR reading that more patents have been given for pumps than for any
other type of device. That's including pumps for many various fluids in
many various applications.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I don't have any of those frame mounted pumps anymore but I recall that it was very easy to pump tires up to high pressure with one of them so it would have had to be two stage. I was still using 23 mm tires at that time and always ran 120 psi. And I always used to count the number of pump strokes to get up to 120 psi and the minipump had only twice the number as the floor pump. That couldn't work out over the area of the pump without two stages of pressurization.

[Luns Tee]

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 1:40:12 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> On 2/8/2022 3:17 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> >
> > I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1) than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force expected from the user. I have to think about it some more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow stretching one or the other constraint, though probably not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have bothered with having even a second stage.

> I didn't remember anything about Jobst and a concentric pump. Digging
> around yielded this:
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/jobst/000.html#jobsts-double-acting-pumps

He'd mentioned it on a few occasions here in r.b.t. Norman Yarvin kept some snippets of one of those times - see: https://yarchive.net/bike/double_acting_pump.html

> Apparently the idea was to use the upstroke to somewhat pressurize the
> main "delivery" cylinder, and use the downstroke to further raise that
> pressure and pump it into the tire or tube.

Yes. I think of it as taking a normal pump downstroke, where the first part is light and the real work is done later in the stroke, and folding the first part over to be done on the otherwise wasted upstroke. This means the intial pumping force required for the new downstroke is higher, and Jobst (over)compensates for this by using a smaller than typical bore. Ray Hosler has used Jobst's pump and has complained about how heavy the upstroke is, which is as I would anticipate for the compression ratio that Jobst used. My hunch is the higher downstroke force is acceptable and the output bore can be kept the same as conventional pumps.

I do have a Blackburn AirTower 5, which appears to keep more conventional dimension that Jobst. It works quite well, though an additional feature it had, of also using a switchable third pumping chamber in parallel with the two primary ones, was poorly implemented and is broken on my pump. I imagine this problem is what led to the pump being discontinued, but I'm perfectly happy without that extra volume.

> Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone else? I know
> there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK they don't use the same
> two stage operation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

AFAIK, Jobst was satisfied with his Silca Impero, and probably felt it wouldn't be worth the extra weight to make it double acting. Zefal did make a double-shot frame pump, and from the diagrams I've seen on the packaging, they're indeed two-stage pumps. I don't remember if there was a road-oriented variant, but I see a few MTB-oriented pumps (Mt. Zefal hp) on eBay. The small bore is 14mm, which should be much easier to push than the 19mm Impero.

> (ISTR reading that more patents have been given for pumps than for any
> other type of device. That's including pumps for many various fluids in
> many various applications.)

I can believe that. People have had many many years to ponder, invent, and reinvent ways to pump fluids.

-Luns

[AMuzi]

Yes. Prior art here:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_ho.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_in.gif

[John B.]

Well the he Girardoni air rifle was in service with the Austrian army
from 1780 to around 1815 - call it 35 years, so apparently it worked
and there are references to the Girardoni air rifles mention lethal
combat ranges of 125 to 150 yards.

Remember that standard Infantry tactics were to advance in massed
formation, fire a volley from, perhaps, 50 yards and charge with the
baronet.

Which as Neapolitan demonstrated worked well right up to the
development of the "rifled musket" which with it's longer range, which
the Americans demonstrated in the 1860's, made massed formations a
thing of the past.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

>> >> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber

>> >> pistol.
>> >>
>> >> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> >> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> > Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>> >
>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>> (who knew?
>>
>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>
>They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.

Well, the Girandoni air gun was in use by the Austrian Army for
something like 50 years, albeit for some years as a sniper's weapon.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Luns Tee]

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 2:54:35 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 3:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> > Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone
> > else? I know there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK
> > they don't use the same two stage operation. Correct me if
> > I'm wrong.

> Yes. Prior art here:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp.jpg
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_ho.jpg
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_in.gif

Thanks for the pictures Andrew! I've read descriptions of this pump in the past, but never actually seen one before.

As far as I can tell, this would be a double-acting but not two-stage pumping, so this doesn't fit what Frank was asking. This appears to be essentially two independent pumps siamesed back-to-back, with separate inlets, both delivering air through the hollow pump shaft. The pull stroke would fortuitously have a smaller effective area, requiring less pull force than the push stroke, but it also contributes a smaller share of the delivered volume too.

The pumps under discussion use one stage to pre-pressurize air for a second stage. Only the first stage has an inlet, the second stage is fed from the first rather than from ambient air. The mt Zefal HP double-shot is the only such frame pump that I'm aware of.

-Luns

[AMuzi]

Thanks. I never actually used one of those, you made the
distinction clear.

[John B.]

On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:15:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The blasted spelling checker failed again and the "50" above should
have been spelled "35" (:-)

In contrast the U.S. M14 rifle seems to have been the standard U.S.
Infantry rifle from 1959 until 1964
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
understand, and probably difficult to work on.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:59:31 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle

Try 1780 instead.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch>

>(who knew?

Google knew but I didn't.

>Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

Some videos on how it works:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Girandoni+Air+Rifle>

"Girardoni Air Gun (original 1780 example)" (11:29 min)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dZLeEUE940>

How it works:
"Girandoni style pneumatic rifle c.1780, Vienna"
<https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn>

Lots of interesting stuff here:
"Austrian Large Bore Airguns"
<http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
20 or 22 shot speedloader or gravity feed on the military version.
This might be a clue why they did not replace black powder:

"The system really was more suited to hunters who do not fire so many
shots as a soldier, who can have the air reservoirs pumped up at
leisure - even by a servant, and whose lives generally do not depend
on the gun."

"A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those large caliber
balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use, discharged, or
partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for fresh full
ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel pumps or
special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000 pre-charged air
cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines. Certainly the
soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three cylinders in
regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with the hand
pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour of hard
pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost without dead
space would be useful in topping off high pressure in partially
expended cylinders."

I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.

Also note the number of intricate parts needed. Eli Whitney didn't
make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I would guess
that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled individually.

Does this research and guesswork compensate for my mistakes earlier in
this thread?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:36:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure.

Looks like they did use leather:
<http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
<http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns_files/image006.jpg>
"The air valve consists of three stacked pieces of hard leather, cut
to a 60 degree slope to match the slope of the brass valve seat."

>Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.

The leather seal in a bicycle pump is a "piston seal", not a "valve
seal". Many modern bicycle pumps continue to use leather piston seals
because they can last forever (when properly oiled and cleaned).
<https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/biking/best-frame-pump>
"The Silca Impero is our favorite frame pump, hitting an impressive
103 psi at only 112 strokes in a 25cc road tire. Silca uses a leather
piston that can better adapt to the micro changes in chamber diameter
that occur with heat buildup. Due to this design, the loss of
efficiency during pumping is minimal."

I also have some experience with leather piston seals in older Coleman
fuel lanterns. In these, the leather piston can be exposed to white
gas, which washes off most lubricants and leather oils. In my
experience with Coleman camping equipment, the leather piston seals
last much longer than the molded rubber abominations.

[John B.]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 21:31:13 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I'm certainly that the air gun was far more complex. I did try to
research it a bit and all I've seen so far is that it took 1500
strokes of the pump to reach the full loaded condition.

My point was that even with a flintlock it takes qualified people to
maintain or repair it. If for no other reason than there were no
interchangeable parts and anything replaced called for very careful
filling, scraping and fitting.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 19:21:36 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

The first hand held micrometer dates to 1848.

And I have read that the Whitney interchangeable parts weren't truly
interchangeable parts in the sense that you could take the part out of
one musket and it would fit perfectly in any other musket. In today's
terminology it is probably something like semi fitted or partially
fitted.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Luns Tee]

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> <https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/biking/best-frame-pump>
> "The Silca Impero is our favorite frame pump, hitting an impressive
> 103 psi at only 112 strokes in a 25cc road tire. Silca uses a leather
> piston that can better adapt to the micro changes in chamber diameter
> that occur with heat buildup. Due to this design, the loss of
> efficiency during pumping is minimal."

One has to wonder what's wrong with their pump. Let's see, even a 40cm stroke pump, with Silca's 1.9cm diameter should deliver pi*(1.9/2)^2*40 ~= 113cc per stroke. 103psi is about 7atm of gauge pressure, so to fill a 25cc tire, that would be a total of 7*25=375cc of uncompressed air being delivered. That's 3.3cc per stroke, or under 3% volumetric efficiency, even worse if the actual pump is longer than the 40cm stroke assumed.

One also wonders what kind of road tire has only 25cc of volume.

-Luns

[John B.]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 00:06:12 -0800 (PST), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
wrote:

He probably meant to write "25mm" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I was going to suggest that 112 strokes to reach 103 PSI doesn't seem all that impressive.

[AMuzi]

>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45

I'm not an expert but open-pan black powder presents issues
of moisture, misfires and slow arduous reloading procedures.
The whole area, like human innovation generally, shows
constant improvement, creativity and technical rigor. The
fact that some innovations are ultimately failures
(pneumatic bicycle gear shift, centrifugal automatic gear
shift, etc) doesn't stop innovation.

[AMuzi]

Not the only example. The leather piston in a Milton
inflator gauge lasts decades in regular use with no obvious
wear or loss of accuracy.

https://www.centurytool.net/v/vspfiles/photos/MIL507B-2T.jpg

Seals between the white gauge cylinder and the brass outer
housing tube.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, well done.

And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no technical need to
make the gun look so much like a flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or
flint holder swinging forward and down. But if soldiers were used to
flintlocks, that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

A good point to stop and reflect on the 'weird but powerful'
effect of Fashion.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.

[Tom Kunich]

Look at this from Jeff's citation: "supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."

I have used tire pumps with leather cylinder seals and contrary to Jeff's claim they had absolutely lousy reliability. Who pulls apart a pump and cleans and oils the leather seals? My Silca Pista has one weak spot - the rubber valve seal So you buy a number of replacements and as they fail you replace them.

[Tom Kunich]

I don't think that was made to look like a flintlock, but rather to load the spring on the air release valve. I made the same mistake of thinking that it appeared to be a caplock.

[Frank Krygowski]

<sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged. Tell me Frank. Why do you make comments when you haven't even a clue what this was all about.

"supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."

Tell is all how the Lewis and Clark expedition moved wheeled air pumps along waterways with boats often no bigger than Indian canoes? When you are ignorant perhaps your (sigh)ing simply shows your ignorance.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'd argue that's not fashion. That's human factors design, acknowledging
the influence of prior experience by the operator. Especially in a
combat or other emergency situation, you'd want to minimize the chance
that a highly stressed operator would forget what to do. You'd want his
prior reflexes to remain valid.

Here's a possible analogy: Automatic transmission cars still tend to
have the brake pedal right next to the gas pedal (or, um, "go" pedal,
thinking of electric cars). And I think most drivers still brake with
their right foot while the left foot lays idle.

So why did the very first automatic transmission cars not move the brake
pedal to far left, for left foot braking? Probably because motorists'
reflexes would have mashed it to the floor (trying to de-clutch) as they
approached a stop sign. (Confession: I made that mistake once, long ago,
while chauffeuring my mother in her car.)

I'd bet Girandoni thought the same way: "Keep it familiar." But I admit,
it's also possible that during the design phase, Girandoni himself was
biased toward what was familiar, and may never have considered an
alternative.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or

Mr Kunich corrected himself, which is a fine adult thing to
do. We all err.

[Frank Krygowski]

Wrong yet again, Tom!

FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
described in many of those.

But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
mechanism and operation.

See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
first pops into your mind.

Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yup, Tommy is well-known for admitting his mistakes

[Frank Krygowski]

True. Too bad his self-correction was burdened with his usual boorish
insults.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, June 18, 2007 at 5:49:19 AM UTC-7, Ned Mantei wrote:
> In article <di6c73hk4lgj0da1p...@4ax.com>,
> carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> snip
> >
> > And what's the story on presta? Or Presta?
> snip
> >
> > Carl Fogel
> For what it's worth, here in Switzerland Presta valves are colloquially
> called "French valves" ("franzoesische Ventile").

Also for what it's worth, presta in Italian means "lends itself". In Spanish it means "If you pay (attention)". In Dutch they call it by the original name "Sclaverand" some of the time.

Otherwise everyone seems to have accepted the Zephal name of Presta (or presta in American).

[AMuzi]

With some notable exceptions (Michelin) nearly all inner
tube manufacturers mark the shipping cases AV or FV.

[Frank Krygowski]

SMH

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I know that you know little to nothing about the history of the United States but the Lewis and Clark Expedition traveled almost entirely by river making the carrying of a heavy wheeled pump for charging mechanism very difficult in the early part of the trip up the Missouri River difficult and the later parts on the later parts past Fort Mandan impossible. When you don't know about things why are you continuously attempting to act like you do?

[Frank Krygowski]

[AMuzi]

>>>>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber

I don't know but their various journals and correspondence
are published*. I have not read them but this is a knowable
thing; one need not guess.


https://lewisandclarkjournals.unl.edu/item/lc.jrn.introduction.general

*There are gaps, but still a huge amount of detailed material.

[Tom Kunich]

You do realize that Frank considers Lewis and Clark stupid bumbling idiots because they didn't have college educations. Simply being able to do it is not a sign of intelligence to Frank. He needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent to qualify as competent.

[AMuzi]

On 2/9/2022 4:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

snippity snip snip snip


> "... needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent to qualify as competent."
>

That reminds me of a great bicycle story.

I was great friends with Angel Rodriguez for many years. A
Certain Person, a minor Midwest framebuilder of no great
success, walked in, touting his 'Framebuilder Certification'
program with certificate - at a fee. Angel, who was the 3d
largest tandem builder then, with a long waiting list for
his beautiful (& expensive) tandems, bit his lip, opened the
cash register, threw several over-$1000 checks on the photo
copier, handed the copy to that gentleman and said "Here's
my certificate. You can leave now."

Oh, how I miss that man. He's moved to Panama.

[John B.]

>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45

Certainly. Firearm ignition systems started with fire on a stick - and
went through a whole series of improvements over a period of
(probably) 6 or 700 years.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Or, maybe, the duck identification system - if it looks like a duck,
waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

If it looks like a gun then it probably is a gun... (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

There you go Tommy, using all those strange and wonderful words that
you don't really understand. A "cap lock" firearm uses a small brass
"cap" vaguely like the cap in a kid's cap pistol, that fitted on a
"nipple" and when struck by the hammer explodes and set off the main
charge in the barrel. See https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Caplock
first picture in second row.

As an aside, it made revolvers practical for the first time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:53:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch

Her is a moving picture of a girandoni's action while the hammer isn't
critical to the action it does provide a means of tensioning the
spring that operated the air valve.
https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

More girandoni (:-)
https://www.guns.com/news/2011/03/15/the-girandoni-air-rifle-deadly-under-pressure
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

I've read a LOT of the Lewis & Clark journals.

Tom is just not worth responding to.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

>> >>>>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber

But Tommy, Meriwether Lewis graduated from college in 1793. William
Clark was commissioned by President George Washington as a lieutenant
of infantry and was largely responsible for making the maps that
recorded the expedition to the Pacific.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 7:34:13 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:15:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:36:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> ><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 12:59:38 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

> >>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
> >>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle

> >>> (who knew?

> >>>
> >>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
> >>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
> >>

> >>They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.
> >
> >Well, the Girandoni air gun was in use by the Austrian Army for
> >something like 50 years, albeit for some years as a sniper's weapon.
> The blasted spelling checker failed again and the "50" above should
> have been spelled "35" (:-)
>
> In contrast the U.S. M14 rifle seems to have been the standard U.S.
> Infantry rifle from 1959 until 1964
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Regarding the M14, its time as the only or main battle rifle was brief as you state. But it continued as a sniper rifle and in other aspects up until today I believe. Such as in parades when soldiers march in uniform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

"Hand-operated air pumps (it took some 1,500 strokes to fill each air canister) were issued one per two riflemen with additional large scale, wheeled air-pumping carts placed behind the lines."
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

Above is a quote from Andy's link about the air rifle used on the Lewis Clark expedition. Anyone with any common sense or intelligence at all, (not you), would guess the Lewis Clark expedition carried along one of the hand operated air pumps. And it was laboriously charged in the evening after supper. Lewis Clark did not use the wheeled air pumps on their expedition. The wheeled air pumps were only used at forts or in battles with a large number of extra personnel in the caravans that accompanied the soldiers in battle. Just like every fighting army today has lots of extra staff driving trucks with supplies and cooking meals behind the fighting lines.

Tommy, I know the answer to this question, but, do you ever think at all?

[John B.]

True, although I suspect that snipers are using something a bit more
sophisticated these days, at least the one's making the "long shots"
see https://largest.org/people/sniper-shots-ever/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
Girandoni was rifled certainly it was retained for snipers after being
withdrawn from general use by the Austrian Army and as far as can be
determined the Expedition was armed probably armed with something
similar to the 1803 contract rifles with a shortened .54 cal. barrel.
Which, as a battle weapon, would have had a far slower rate of fire
then the Air Gun.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Russy, plainly you don't know anything about guns, While you are being attacked by Indians I want you to pump up a pressure vessel with 1500 pumps. It is plain that you were never in the military but pretty soon you'll wish you were when your city turns into little El Salvador.

[Tim R]

Thanks, good find. As you can see the gun is fired by a striker moving against the valve, which functions exactly like a tire valve.

I have worked on some airguns and replaced seals. This isn't easy on a spring powered one as you have to compress the spring before disassembling. Older high quality German air guns can still be found with leather seals, but the more recent ones have synthetics.

The seals needed a little oil to stay flexible, but not too much, or it would explode (diesel) when the piston compressed the air.

For a good explanation, see:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5mcemcyutrm

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
> expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the

> Girandoni was rifled...

It was rifled.

See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

If that was true rifling why didn't they show a light down the barrel and photograph it. That airgun disassembled completely and the barrel detached. I think that was an early attempt at rifling that didn't have any twists in it because there were simply too many grooves in it and it and they were rounded.

By the way, so called muzzle loaders are still being manufactured and they are rifled, they shoot bullet shaped bullets and they with high pressure powder and accurate out to 300 yards with .50 caliber. Seems like a lot of effort when you can use a .50 caliber sniper rifle easily out to 2,000 meters with semiautomatic fire. The problem at these distances is holding steady on the target.

[Tim R]

Round ball rifling works fine if it's just a shallow scratch in the barrel.
Muzzle loader rifling is very slow twist. Where a modern military rifle might spiral once in 9 inches, a muzzle loader can turn once in 72. (depends a bit on the type projectile. Round ball needs less, long narrow bullets need more.)

[Andre Jute]

What a grand, grand story! Thanks for sharing, Andrew. --- AJ

[Frank Krygowski]

>> You do realize that Frank considers Lewis and Clark stupid bumbling idiots because they didn't have college educations.

>> Simply being able to do it is not a sign of intelligence to Frank. He needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent

>> to qualify as competent.
>>
>
> That reminds me of a great bicycle story.
>
> I was great friends with Angel Rodriguez for many years. A Certain
> Person, a minor Midwest framebuilder of no great success, walked in,
> touting his 'Framebuilder Certification' program with certificate - at a
> fee. Angel, who was the 3d largest tandem builder then, with a long
> waiting list for his beautiful (& expensive) tandems, bit his lip,
> opened the cash register, threw several over-$1000 checks on the photo
> copier, handed the copy to that gentleman and said "Here's my
> certificate. You can leave now."

Certainly, not every "piece of paper" is equally valuable. And as John
has noted, Meriwether Lewis had a college degree. Beyond that, he had
what might be the equivalent of a Master's Degree, based on further
independent study arranged by Thomas Jefferson.

But Tom keeps implying degrees or even high school diplomas are of
little value - a classic case of "sour grapes."

Do you know someone who wants to fly the tilt rotor Osprey aircraft for
the Marines? They need to start by getting their degree. Pay attention
to 0:50 to 1:05 at
https://www.yahoo.com/news/marine-pilots-fly-84-million-163600565.html

Related: One of my favorite students had a lifetime ambition of flying
for the Air Force - specifically, the huge transport planes at our local
base. And indeed, within a few years of graduating, that's exactly what
he was doing. (He was kind enough to give me a tour of our area in a
much smaller plane to thank me.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

To become an officer in the USA military, the person must have a bachelor's degree from a college. You cannot be a member of rank in the USA military without a college degree. Enlisted people are required to have a high school degree or a GED. I am not sure Tommy qualifies to be in the military.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell us when you were in the Military Russell. If you haven't why are you speaking about it as if you knew something? Most military officers attend the appropriate military academy such as West Point, Annapolis or United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. If you think that an officer is going to get anywhere with some Podunk college degree you couldn't be more wrong.

[John B.]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:13:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

And tommy knows something about being attacked by Indians?

But of course tommy was in the military... yup, he carried a tool box
for a qualified repairman and the closest he ever got to "fighting"
was about 2500 miles so obviously tommy is fully qualified to talk
about fighting.... Indians or otherwise.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Interesting. Very innovative. The first rifled long guns in the U.S.
army date to about 1800 and in the British Army about the same period.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Well put but not dispositive. Goes both ways.

Lear, of the first car radio, founder of Motorola and
developer of the LearJet had an 8th grade education. Counter
examples (degreed certified dolts) abound as well.

[John B.]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 08:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 7:44:38 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >
>> > It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
>> > expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
>> > Girandoni was rifled...
>>
>> It was rifled.
>>
>> See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189
>If that was true rifling why didn't they show a light down the barrel and photograph it. That airgun disassembled completely and the barrel detached. I think that was an early attempt at rifling that didn't have any twists in it because there were simply too many grooves in it and it and they were rounded.

Tommy, you ARE an Idiot. The guy shows you a photo of the muzzle and
refers to it as rifling, which to anyone familiar with firearms
certainly implies twisted grooves in a barrel to spin the bullet. Why
else would they have been made?"

>
>By the way, so called muzzle loaders are still being manufactured and they are rifled, they shoot bullet shaped bullets and they with high pressure powder and accurate out to 300 yards with .50 caliber. Seems like a lot of effort when you can use a .50 caliber sniper rifle easily out to 2,000 meters with semiautomatic fire. The problem at these distances is holding steady on the target.

Yes, muzzle loading firearms are still being made both in rifled and
smoothbore versions. Oh! and the U.S. Army is still using a muzzle
loading, unrifled, weapon, I believe extensively, which has an
effective range of about 3,000 yards.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

John F Kennedy, Harvard graduate, Lieutenant Navy, President of USA

[John B.]

Rifling twist is, as you said is rather dependent on the projectile. A
soft lead ball probably would not work well in a 9 inch twist barrel.
I did read an article written by Elmer Keith - a reprint, the original
was written in 1940 in which he says that the Big 50 Sharps, shooting
paper patched lead bullets, had a 1 turn in 30 inch barrel. Shooting
a .50 cal, 700 grain bullets (depending on lead mix) with 150 - 170
grains of FG powder (:-)

In contrast I used to built 250-.22 wildcat rifles with 10 inch twist
which worked well at about 3,000 ft/sec.
(which would be what? Medium velocity today?)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I have no opinion but that has changed over the years, and
likely will again.

At the moment enlistments are dramatically down and they're
already paying signing bonuses. Standards will fall again if
enlistments don't pick up.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-new-enlistment-bonus/

This is, by the way, a record for enlistment bonuses.

[AMuzi]

I defer to you on official War Department procurement, since
I have no idea.

But I do know something about our Founding. Paul Revere and
William Dawes left Boston on horseback at night* because
some 700-odd of the British garrison had marched out at
midnight* for Lexington where the most accurate _long
rifles_ on the continent were manufactured. They took a
circuitous route but did arrive at Lexington in time and the
results, including the forced withdrawal at Concord, were
our 'shot heard round the world'. A result in our favor was
critically due to the superior range and accuracy of long
rifles against smooth bore British issue muskets.

18 April, 1775.

* 1775! No streetlights, no headlamps, no paved rural roads.

[John B.]

I think, and admittedly this is memories of some 50 or more years ago,
but I believe that in Tommy's time there was no education requirement
for enlisted. Certainly I had a young guy working for me in about
1970, or there about, that I scheduled for a GED test and he would
have had more then a year service at the time as he had completed tech
school.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I guess I would have to ask tommy "why are you

speaking about it as if you knew something?"

As during the period that tommy claims to have been in the Air force a
great number of commissioned officers had NOT graduated from the Air
Force Academy.

The first Air Academy class graduated in 1965. Which, if Tommy hasn't
lied was one year before he left the A.F. So for 3/4 of his enlistment
there were NO Air Force Academy pilots. In fact as an Academy graduate
would have to go through primary flight training then training for the
specific airplane he was going to fly, after leaving the Academy, it
is doubtful that there were any Air Academy pilots on active flight
duty until after tommy left the Air force.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I think you missed a beat there as from what I read the Paul V. and
Joseph E. Galvin company first used the name "Motorola" in 1930.

As for Lear, as far as I can see, he never finished high school but
apparently was a U.S. Navy qualified "instructor in wireless", so his
knowledge of radio systems must have been above that of the usual 8th
grader.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yes, I've read the stories and yes, British troops were marching to
seize stores of gun powder and some arms at Lexington, and yes, I've
read stories about the Minute Men snipping from behind fences but I
doubt greatly whether many rifles were used, although admittedly this
seems to be a constant theme in U.S. history.

But, where did these "rifles" come from? The average farmer had no
requirement for an expensive rifled gun, a smooth bore was far cheaper
and far more versatile for use on the farm.

Additionally there were no organized munitions makers in the U.S. and
rifles were made one at a time, and were extremely expensive. Kenneth
Roberts in the historical novel Arundel, based on actual diaries of
the 1775 Quebec Campaign, mentions used rifles with accoutrements
exchanged for 12-15 English pounds. A smooth bore at the time might be
2 pounds and 4 shillings. To get an idea of how much this was there is
a record of a John Moll paying 45 pounds for a 60’ X 230’ building lot
in Allentown in 1772. And, William Carlin, a tailor in colonial
Alexandria who made clothes for field hands as well as the planter
elite, charged £3-5 for an ordinary wool suit.

Some of the greatest support furnished by the French to the
revolutionists was in the form of muskets and gun power. In the
Battles of Saratoga on September 19 and October 7, 1777, it is
estimated that as many as nine out of 10 American soldiers carried
French arms, and were completely dependent on French gunpowder.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Of course counterexamples exist. But as I've said, I'm a big fan of normal curves
intelligently interpreted. The data's very firm that more education normally leads
to more accomplishments and more prosperity. Exceptions are relatively rare.
Education also correlates strongly with more intelligence, which is no surprise.

Very few correlations are 100 percent accurate with no exceptions. That doesn't
mean we should say "ignore the data."

- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:53:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no technical need to
>make the gun look so much like a flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or
>flint holder swinging forward and down. But if soldiers were used to
>flintlocks, that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.

Design is most commonly evolutionary and rarely revolutionary. In
other words, a new design tends to build on the old design that it
attempts to replace. In this case, the 1780 Girandoni prototype was
probably built from components borrowed from the muskets of the day.
While the internal pneumatic mechanisms were certainly different, the
design and placement of the stock, barrel, sighting, breech, etc were
"good enough" to be used in their original forms. For example, the
20/22 shot loader was borrowed directly from "harmonica" guns,
invented in 1742:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=harmonica+rifle&tbm=isch>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica_gun>

I don't think training was the most important consideration. What was
important was to sell the air rifle. The military of the day was
highly conservative and not particularly receptive to making major
changes of any kind. It was much like the early machine guns, which
were declared useless by the military because it wasted ammunition.
Making the air rifle look like something familiar had the advantage of
making it appear to be a minor improvement to the existing rifle
rather than a radical redesign hidden inside. However, that would
only get the air rifle to testing and trials, where the differences
and limitations would soon be evident. Before soldiers can be trained
to use any kind of weapon system, the military needs to decide how the
weapon is to be used. This was a major problem with early machine
guns, tanks, airplanes, and just about every revolutionary
technological improvement. When first introduced, officers had no
idea how these were to be used and had to do quite a bit of
experimentation before a functional system was contrived. Once that
was established, then the training can begin.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

Over the years I worked in Indonesia the company hired slews of
collage graduates for internationally funded development projects and
frankly I can't remember any that qualified as "degree certified
dolts" although I did see some who were in a position where they
weren't wholly qualified for. In fact it is rare, if not impossible,
to find someone who can do everything (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 21:15:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Well, yes. In fact that is one of the things that civilians nag about.
Someone invents a new thingy and Hooray, Hooray, we ought to use this.
The experienced military Officer knows what losing a single battle
might mean losing the war is inclined to use what worked last time.

I recently read a quite extensive write up on the German's first use
of large tank forces in battle and except that the "other guys" were
more incompetent it would have been a major disaster. The Tanks
themselves had a limited range, the tank carriers broke down, treads
broke easily and even the large tank guns over heated.
The Germans, of course, learned from experience and developed highly
effective tank forces.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 12:04:52 AM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Of course counterexamples exist. But as I've said, I'm a big fan of normal curves
> intelligently interpreted. The data's very firm that more education normally leads
> to more accomplishments and more prosperity. Exceptions are relatively rare.
> Education also correlates strongly with more intelligence, which is no surprise.
>
> Very few correlations are 100 percent accurate with no exceptions. That doesn't
> mean we should say "ignore the data."

+1, Very well said, but I've worked with a number of very talented non-degreed engineering professionals who had the title of 'engineer'. I know it puts a thorn in some peoples paws that someone without an engineering degree has 'engineer' title, but it doesn't bother me one bit, due to the fact the fact that I've worked with so many degreed engineers who were absolutely pathetic (my department is burdened with one right now (and no tommy, it isn't me)).

[AMuzi]

We agree. There are trends, and then again there are
outliers, in everything.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell me Russy, do you think that the President is a commissioned officer? Do you know the difference between a Lieutenant and a Captain in the Navy?