inattentive driving

[AMuzi]

Amazingly, she lived

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12907113/Horrifying-moment-reckless-driver-ploughs-elderly-cyclist-sending-71-year-old-woman-flying-air-crash-left-victim-bleed-brain.html


--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Roger Merriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Amazingly, she lived
>
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12907113/Horrifying-moment-reckless-driver-ploughs-elderly-cyclist-sending-71-year-old-woman-flying-air-crash-left-victim-bleed-brain.html
>
>

Indeed spotted this on the socials mainly as some opinion men were
attempting to justify the driver!

note you really have to mess up to get jailed in general the courts tend to
err to leniency.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

On the other hand I scratched the back of my head about the speed at which the woman entered the scene.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Possibly on a downhill, it’s from some cctv camera so quality and timing
maybe out? Looks broadly same speed as the car that follows her.

I presume had she been travelling at great speed it would have been used by
the defence.

Roger Merriman

[Zen Cycle]

I was wondering about that. In the US such an 'accident' would only lead
to criminal sanctions if the offender showed intent or was OUI. If it
was a legitimate "she came out of nowhere" accident, they would usually
see a civil fine and/or insurance 'demerits' and premium increase.

--
Add xx to reply

[Zen Cycle]

I noticed that too, She was moving pretty fast. Based on the way that
the driver went through the intersection, I suspect he might have hit an
on-coming car as well.

I also noted the van that drove through the intersection after
witnessing the accident. It obviously had to slow down, but to keep
going? Pretty cold.....

[Catrike Ryder]

On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 04:21:51 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

I doubt that she was breaking any speed limits, but clearly, the car
did not stop before it went through the intersection. I believe the
white triangle means you must yield. He did not.

[Lou Holtman]

I’m not arguing who is at fault, but I hope that on my tombstone it doesn’t say: ‘Lou died in a car accident but he had the right of way’.

Lou

[Catrike Ryder]

On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 06:24:23 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

I understand; My philosophy is to not trust that other people are
going to do the right thing. I'd have to have a wider, more
comprehensive view of the situation for me to evaluate, for myself, if
her speed was part of the problem.

[Roger Merriman]

It’s city stuff isn’t it, alone in the crowd folks just filter out others.

I believe they tested this with actors and village vs city where
unsurprisingly in the village the actors had help immediately.

Roger Merriman

[Zen Cycle]

a.k.a. "Dead Right"

[Tom Kunich]

That woman was on a slight downhill and was riding probably at less than 20 mph. Why would you question that? You ride OFTEN at much higher speeds through intersections. Does Holland have problems with illegal aliens that don't know how to drive being issued drivers licenses so that they can get to work? Virtually every ride now, i am threatened by people that clearly do not have the slightest idea of how to drive. The other day, while riding down a hill at perhaps 25 mph a man pulled out of a driveway, saw me and continued to pull out despite me being unable to stop and his responsibility to relinquish right of way. I just cleared him and his response was to honk his horn at me as if I was supposed to give him right-of-way.

[Roger Merriman]

That is almost certainly being unfair to the cyclist, possibly was some
indication that they hadn’t look? Or not.

But certainly it’s unpractical to drive/ride past each junction at a speed
you can stop dead, and here the car didn’t stop at all at the junction.

Would appear it’s something of accident black spot, so possibly could do
with adjusting somehow.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Yup it’s give way to traffic on the main road though if clear don’t need to
stop, as dashed give way line than stop line.

Regardless that he was not only charged but sentenced suggests quite
overwhelming guilt on his part as the courts don’t generally ie they allow
for mistakes generally.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

It is somewhat bothersome dor Lou to question someone else doing what he no doubt does as a matter of course every day

[Frank Krygowski]

Exactly. If the cyclist wasn't breaking the speed limit, her speed is
irrelevant. There is no requirement to slow at each intersection to a
speed at which you can do a quick panic stop. It's all on the motorist.

Related to that: Less knowledgeable people sometimes advise cyclists to
"Always ride as if you were invisible." But that's nonsense! It would
require stopping off the road any time a car got anywhere near you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/29/2023 9:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>

> I’m not arguing who is at fault, but I hope that on my tombstone it doesn’t say: ‘Lou died in a car accident but he had the right of way’.

I've heard that sentiment before. But your odds of dying on a bike are
already minuscule. You may as well worry about dying from a meteorite
strike.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

I question nothing and not arguing who is at fault you idiot, I just scratched my head. Let's see, approaching a crossing where a car just made a left turn into a small road blocking somehow the view, after that another car entered the junction and made no attempt to stop before I even at the crossing. Hmm, I think I would have made another judgement than assuming the car would decide to stop after all and just carry on. My life is too valuable. BTW I think she was going faster than 30 km/hr.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

I hope I don't do that every day. BTW there is something wrong with your keyboard lately.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Uk so no speed limit applies, is some old clause of riding furiously though
it would be very brave police who attempted that, quite possibly never been
used!

Related old legislation is wanton and furious driving which is what the
cyclist who crashed into the pedestrian few years ago killing her on his
brake less fixie.

And that was the 1st and only time it had been used, since 1861 originally
intended for horse carriages apparently.

Clearly not much demand to overhaul the legislation.

>
> Related to that: Less knowledgeable people sometimes advise cyclists to
> "Always ride as if you were invisible." But that's nonsense! It would
> require stopping off the road any time a car got anywhere near you.
>

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

We not arguing that. Driver is sentenced, the woman in the hospital. A loose, loose. Nice....

> Related to that: Less knowledgeable people sometimes advise cyclists to
> "Always ride as if you were invisible." But that's nonsense! It would
> require stopping off the road any time a car got anywhere near you.

Who is advising this? This people should be shot.

Lou

[Zen Cycle]

On 12/29/2023 11:09 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

I think you misinterpreted. "Dead right" applies to those who had the
right of way and were killed by someone who didn't yield.
Many years ago I ran a cycling merit badge program for a local boy scout
troop (and no, catrike rider, no one wants to hear your lame fucking
opinion about cycling classes).
I started using the term "dead right" to describe people who assumed
that that drivers would see them and yield as required by law. I taught
them to always ride as if drivers didn't see them, even if the rider had
the right of way.

>
> But certainly it’s unpractical to drive/ride past each junction at a speed
> you can stop dead, and here the car didn’t stop at all at the junction.
>
> Would appear it’s something of accident black spot, so possibly could do
> with adjusting somehow.
>
> Roger Merriman

[Zen Cycle]

I've never heard "ride as if invisible", I've always heard "ride as if
the driver doesn't see you". It's a subtle difference, but a difference
nonetheless.

[Catrike Ryder]

<EYEROLL>

[Catrike Ryder]

On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 12:06:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/29/2023 11:09 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/29/2023 9:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Depending on "the motorist" to do the right thing is a foolish
mistake. I always assume the other guy, motorist, or otherwise,
doesn't see me, at least until I make eye contact or are otherwise
sure that they have seen me.

[Roger Merriman]

No it’s a old term that’s been around probably few hundred years, a) she
may not of seen the 2nd car due to the left turning car which would of
hidden both parties momentarily, and b) to absolutely avoid this she would
had to slow to what walking speed just before the junction. It’s not
practical solution, it’s very common with motorcycles for similar reasons
ie drivers look for other cars and don’t register bikes etc.

>>
>> But certainly it’s unpractical to drive/ride past each junction at a speed
>> you can stop dead, and here the car didn’t stop at all at the junction.
>>
>> Would appear it’s something of accident black spot, so possibly could do
>> with adjusting somehow.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Any person unable to see oncoming traffic with right-of-way is REQUIRED to stop until it is clear.. Because of the angle and coverage of the video, Lou seems to have gotten the idea that a 71 year old woman was traveling much faster than such people are capable of. It did look pretty scary. But she had relatively minor injuries showing that she was traveling much slower that he thought. At 20 mph only 5% of pedestrians struck have fatal injuries. At 40 mph 85% of pedestrians die. That sort of bicycle accident was similar in danger to pedestrians in crosswalks.

[Roger Merriman]

She was thrown some distance, and had broken a number of bones plus some
sort of bleed with the brain, and was in hospital most of week.

That’s fairly significant, her speed is not reported to be factor, and I’d
not totally trust the video footage with its angle and so on.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

At 40mph I'd say 'superhuman' not 'pedestrian'. Fastest
sprinters top out at 27mph.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

I've heard the "invisible" version many, many times. I believe I've seen
it in this forum, in years past. I've always argued against it.

I think it's much better to ride so you will be visible, as opposed to
(say) skulking in the gutter.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Ryder]

No, you don't try to be invisible, but you maintain a mindset that
others don't see you.

[Roger Merriman]

Not sure I’ve ever heard gutter riding actually advocated let alone
described as invisible, I suspect that gutter riders are just as visible
but drivers assume they can pass and so on.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

Clever Frankie playing word games again. The word "gutter" is as
defined in American English, "a trough along the eaves to catch and
carry off rainwater", "a low area (as at the edge of a street) to
carry off surface water (as to a sewer)"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gutter
Or perhaps a "ditch".

But had Frank used the word "ditch", which has much the same meaning,
his readers would have thinking, "What's to guy going on about?
skulking in a ditch?"

But, having said that I would comment that in a number of countries
here, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia the highway laws all
forbid impeding other traffic. Singapore, for example has a $1,000
fine as the penalty for driving at a slower then normal speed.

So, while you do not have to ride in the gutter the cyclist is
required to avoid, as much as possible, the impeding of other traffic.
Usually by riding, as far as can be done safely, on the outer side of
the"slow" lane.

As for invisibility and all the other stories, Reality is that one
doesn't see the auto lying crushed in the gutter waiting the ambulance
while the bicycle rolls on down the road with a dent in the fender. So
who has the greatest reason to avoid "accidents".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Gutter riding isn't advocated by any competent cyclist; but as with
other bad behaviors, there are those who do advocate it; and I certainly
see plenty who do it routinely. I think the usual motivation is "I've
gotta stay out of the way of cars, no matter what." It's been termed
"fear from the rear."

As for visibility, a gutter rider or other rider at the edge of the road
is harder than a lane center cyclist for an oncoming motorist to spot
before he makes a left turn (or right turn in Britain). He's lost in the
visual clutter at the road's edge.

An edge or gutter rider is also less visible to a motorist creeping out
of an intersecting street or driveway, especially if there are visual
obstacles like parked cars, shrubbery, etc. A rider at lane center is
much more conspicuous.

There are other detriments to edge or gutter riding. Things like glass
and other debris, dooring hazards, left turns (or right ones in Britain)
from the wrong lane position, etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/29/2023 8:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> But, having said that I would comment that in a number of countries
> here, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia the highway laws all
> forbid impeding other traffic. Singapore, for example has a $1,000
> fine as the penalty for driving at a slower then normal speed.

Yes, John, you've pointed that out dozens of times. (Perhaps you've
forgotten?) And in rebuttal, I've pointed out dozens of times that in my
state and most if not all U.S. states, a bicyclist is not required to
ride at the edge if the lane is too narrow to be safely shared.

Just yesterday I had a conversation with a long-time cycling friend now
living in Missouri. She said in that state, a motorist is legally
required to change lanes completely when passing a cyclist. (That's the
first time I'd heard that.) She said her son failed his driving test on
his first try because he failed to change lanes to pass a cyclist.

More briefly: Thailand isn't the U.S.

> As for invisibility and all the other stories, Reality is that one
> doesn't see the auto lying crushed in the gutter waiting the ambulance
> while the bicycle rolls on down the road with a dent in the fender. So
> who has the greatest reason to avoid "accidents".

The question is, what behavior is best for avoiding "accidents"?

Less competent cyclists think they're safest by riding facing traffic,
or always skulking at the roads edge, or riding on sidewalks, etc. But
people who have done unbiased studies of data on crash types have
determined that those behaviors are more dangerous than riding as a
vehicle operator, following existing laws. Which is why vehicular
behavior is what's taught in every legitimate bicycling education
curriculum.

Not that you, John, would bother to learn about such things.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Ryder]

What constitutes a "legitimate bicycling education curriculum" is a
subjective evaluation. My evaluation is that I doubt there is such a
thing assuming that the term "bicycling" refers to riding a bike.

[Tom Kunich]

The woman was reportedly 71, Roger. Beginning at about 50 years of age, most women and some men suffer from ostiopenia and a large portion of the women go on to develope ostioporosis. So the fact that she broke bonrs is pretty much a given. The accident (if you can call it that) threw the woman so far that a concussion of some sortand possble brain bleeds were to be expected. The question is WHAT is going to happen to a driver that careless?

[Tom Kunich]

In every case where I was hit or almoist hit while riding in the bike lane I was clearly visible, the person driving the car COULD have seen me if they had looked and in every case it was dangerous driving. Leave it to Krygowski who has many times claims he takes right-of-way from faster moving traffic to use the term "skulking in the gutter". Apparently he gets his jollies holding up traffic. Sort of the same feeling he had standing in front of a class holding the power of the grade over students as he passed on more communist propaganda.