Litespeed Catalyst - need advice
PGerfen
I'm especially interested in comments from heavier riders. I'm 6'2" /185
and
am a recreational rider (50 to 100 miles a week and occaisional centuries
etc.).
I have heard that this is a pretty good frame, but potentially a little
too flexy in
the rear triangle for bigger people. I have been told that I shoud stick
with a steel frame such as a Serotta if I don't want to shell out for a
higher end Ti
frameset.
Thanks.
Jeff Gerfen
George Morrison
essentially the same frame, Are you aware of the Litespeed Classic which
is about $275 more but has a butted rear triangle creating a stiffer but
still resilient ride? Are there riders out there who can compare????
Tony Ido
if a Catalyst will be a good bike for you or will it be too whippy.
Here's an answer for you, and everybody else out there thinking of
buying a new steed.
First, let me preface my answer by telling you that I earn a pretty
fair living selling bikes and I've raced them now for 20 years. I've
owned as you could imagine just about every type of bike there is. I'm
going to let you in on a secret, one that most people hate to hear, but
that is true nonetheless.
It doesn't really matter what you buy. Or, to put it another way,
they're all more or less the same (even the ones that are completely the
opposite, like the Catalyst vs. say, a Klein)
That's just another way of saying if it fits and you like it on a gut
level, go for it. It's actually much more important where you buy your
bike (are they reputable? Knowledgeable? Do they care?) than precisely
what you buy.
I hear a lot of this bunk about is it still enough/too stiff/not
stiff enough . Fact is, whatever you buy you'll get used to. What do
people think will happen? A whippy bike will just stand in place and wind
up instead of go forward? People will pass you like you're standing still
when you try to "sprint"? That whippy Vitus didn't seem to slow down Sean
Kelly. Will a "stiff" bike beat you up so bad that you'll look like Wile
E. Coyote after he uses that jackhammer? My buddy Dan Chew managed to
ride his piece of crap Cannondale about 20K miles one year and didn't
seem to mind.
Fact is, things like whippyness and plushness are determined much
more by things like tires, stems, bars, etc. than frame type.
Not that there aren't differences, mind you. They're just blown out
of proportion. For the record though, the Catalyst is an excellent bike,
and probably perfect for your needs. I hope this helps. I know that in
a way it might just make it more confusing, but know that it's okay to buy
a bike because you like the color or the cloverleaf on the headtube,
because a lot of time that's all that distinguishes one bike from another.
Happy Riding,
Tony
Rinards
(George Morrison) writes:
> Are you aware of the Litespeed Classic which
>is about $275 more but has a butted rear triangle creating a stiffer but
>still resilient ride? Are there riders out there who can compare????
I have deflection tested a Litespeed Classic and a Litespeed *like* the
Catalyst (same tubing as the Catalyst, anyway, from back when they made
custom frames). Here's how much they flexed laterally (in inches) under a
47.5 pound load:
FRAME FRONT TRIANGLE REAR TRIANGLE
Classic 0.38 0.19
"Catalyst" 0.44 0.23
So you can see as far as lateral stiffness goes, the Classic is slightly
stiffer than the Catalyst. To put the numbers in perspective, a Tomasso
SLX frame flexes 0.44 in the front triangle and 0.17 in the rear triangle.
It is common for titanium frames to match or exceed the stiffness of
steel frames in the front triangle, but flex more than steel frames in the
rear triangle.
As for vertical stiffness, or the mythical "stiff yet resilient" ride, I
recommend having a look at Bob Bundy's article in the FAQ: "Frame
Stiffness". His measurements convinced me that the frame contributes
practically NOTHING to the bike's vertical flex.
Hope this helps,
Damon Rinard
Jay Tobias
> I am 230 lbs and have a Vortex. I've had plenty of high-end bikes in my
> time but nothing that compares to the Vortex. I understand the 1996
> Catalysts are stiffer because they have shaped tubing. I understand they
> are now essentially the same as the Classic but without the finish
> options.
> -Terry
How does Litespeed compare against Merlin? A local dealer won't sell
anything but, claiming that since it's made in the US with 100% pure
titanium, it's the BEST.
--
Jay Tobias (jto...@studio.sgi.com) - MTS, SGI/Silicon Studio
Terry Thiel
I am 230 lbs and have a Vortex. I've had plenty of high-end bikes in my
Jeff Althoff
Jay Tobias <jto...@studio.sgi.com> wrote:
>
>How does Litespeed compare against Merlin? A local dealer won't sell
>anything but, claiming that since it's made in the US with 100% pure
>titanium, it's the BEST.
>
Most ti bikes (including Merlins, for the most part) are made with
3/2.5 ti - an alloy of titanium, aluminium(3%), and vanadium(2.5%) I believe-
not 100% pure ti. I think 2 exceptions are the 2 new cheaper Merlins that
have rear triangles made of "commercially pure" ti - whatever that
means. My understanding is that the alloy is stronger than pure ti.
I believe that Litespeed, Merlin, and many others use the same alloy. The
exceptions are the 6/4 Litespeeds - the tellico and the vortex.
So while this dealer may believe that Merlins are the best, his
reason for believing it is not based in fact.
Perhaps Gary Helfrich will give us more details on the alloys..
Jeff.
--
Jeff Althoff j...@netcom.COM
Mark Hickey
> Terry Thiel wrote:
> > I am 230 lbs and have a Vortex. I've had plenty of high-end bikes in my
> > time but nothing that compares to the Vortex. I understand the 1996
> > Catalysts are stiffer because they have shaped tubing. I understand they
> > are now essentially the same as the Classic but without the finish
> > options.
> > -Terry
>
> How does Litespeed compare against Merlin? A local dealer won't sell
> anything but, claiming that since it's made in the US with 100% pure
> titanium, it's the BEST.
Actually, if they are speaking literally, they would be talking about
the CP4 (commercially pure) tubing used in the new "low end" Merlin
frame. CP4 is inferior to the 3Al/2.5V alloy tubing almost everyone
else uses.
Stiffness in a frame is almost exclusively due to tubing diameter,
whether the tube is "shaped" or not. Look for a frame with oversize
tubing all around, and you'll probably be looking at a "stiff" frame.
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
Lou D'Amelio
>
> Terry Thiel wrote:
> > I am 230 lbs and have a Vortex. I've had plenty of high-end bikes in my
> > time but nothing that compares to the Vortex. I understand the 1996
> > Catalysts are stiffer because they have shaped tubing. I understand they
> > are now essentially the same as the Classic but without the finish
> > options.
> > -Terry
>
> How does Litespeed compare against Merlin? A local dealer won't sell
> anything but, claiming that since it's made in the US with 100% pure
> titanium, it's the BEST.
>
> Jay Tobias (jto...@studio.sgi.com) - MTS, SGI/Silicon Studio
Both are excellent bikes, both frames completely US made. The part about
100% pure titanium is bull. Commercially pure (CP) titanium is a lower
grade, and very variable in quality. Common in titanium sourced from
Russia and China used in lower grade Ti frames. Not used by Merlin or
Litespeed. Merlins carry a reputation for being absolutely faultless.
Until recently (the RSR), they did not offer a 'budget' frame. Ride both
and compare, but beware of the advice you were given. Both Merlin and
Litespeed use 3/2.5 (3% aluminum, 2.5% vanadium) tubing, which is the
current standard. Harder (6/4) alloys are used for dropouts and BB
shells. The Litespeed Vortex is the only bike available made completely
of 6/4 (its a hard alloy to work with). Look in the bike mags - there are
a few Merlin / Litespeed comparisons over the last couple of years. Both
are outstanding companies.
......................Lou
Terry Thiel
> Terry Thiel wrote:
> > I am 230 lbs and have a Vortex. I've had plenty of high-end bikes in my
> > time but nothing that compares to the Vortex. I understand the 1996
> > Catalysts are stiffer because they have shaped tubing. I understand they
> > are now essentially the same as the Classic but without the finish
> > options.
> > -Terry
>
> How does Litespeed compare against Merlin? A local dealer won't sell
> anything but, claiming that since it's made in the US with 100% pure
> titanium, it's the BEST.
>
> --
> Jay Tobias (jto...@studio.sgi.com) - MTS, SGI/Silicon Studio
Uh, nobody uses 100% pure titanium. Everything is an alloy. Thats all
I'll say about it since anything else I might say is sure to be refuted by
the engineers that hang out here. I liked Merlins too but my vortex is
6/4 titamium which is 30% stronger than most frames. Basically it is
super light, stiff and very comfortable smooth riding. The titanium ride
is NOT overstated! But them maybe I'm just trying to justify the $$$$ ;)
-Terry
Kit Cheves
tth...@precisiongraphics.com (Terry Thiel) wrote:
> Uh, nobody uses 100% pure titanium. Everything is an alloy. Thats all
> I'll say about it since anything else I might say is sure to be refuted by
> the engineers that hang out here.
CP (commenrcially pure) Ti is used on cheaper bikes, such as those
marketted by Raleigh and Performance.
---------------------
Kit Cheves
kch...@qualcomm.com
San Diego, California
Jay Tobias
> Both are excellent bikes, both frames completely US made. The part about
> 100% pure titanium is bull. Commercially pure (CP) titanium is a lower
> grade, and very variable in quality. Common in titanium sourced from
> Russia and China used in lower grade Ti frames. Not used by Merlin or
> Litespeed. Merlins carry a reputation for being absolutely faultless.
Thanks - I just read the Merlin literature that states in a '94 comparison
of titanium frames, only Merlin had no faults in their welds. It was a
while ago when I spoke with the dealer, but he may have said that Merlin
uses titanium with no impurities; the titanium is made in the US and
certified to this effect. Namely, it's entire history is tracked and
documented to attest to its purity. I don't believe he meant "no alloy",
especially since Merlin labels it as 3/2.5.
> Until recently (the RSR), they did not offer a 'budget' frame. Ride both
> and compare, but beware of the advice you were given. Both Merlin and
> Litespeed use 3/2.5 (3% aluminum, 2.5% vanadium) tubing, which is the
> current standard. Harder (6/4) alloys are used for dropouts and BB
> shells.
One of Merlin's other claims is that unlike other manufacturers (all?) they
thread the bottom bracket after the welding of the frame, which prevents
distortion of its shape and resultant alignment problems. Is this an issue
with Litespeed?
> The Litespeed Vortex is the only bike available made completely
> of 6/4 (its a hard alloy to work with). Look in the bike mags - there are
> a few Merlin / Litespeed comparisons over the last couple of years. Both
> are outstanding companies.
Yes, and at least Litespeed can be had at mail-order prices (e.g. Colorado
Cyclist). I'm looking for something I can put a triple on and that has
slightly relaxed angles from the racing setup (preferring recreational,
hilly, prolonged riding).