The Urban Trainer. dumb idea, but..............

[Tim R]

This is an idea I've had for a long time but never figured how to implement.

An urban trainer would be a bike to get a workout on just going around your neighborhood, maybe just around one block. It would move slowly, maybe 3 mph, but your pedal cadence and resistance would match a regular workout, like you'd do if you'd been able to get somewhere safer.

So you would need a super low gear. One would be plenty I think, no reason to go faster. And you'd need an easily attached resistance like a mag trainer.

I have a bike on a mag trainer in my basement but riding in the fresh air would be more fun.

The problem I think is that you would fall down. You need the gyroscope effect of rotating wheels to stay up, right? So would you need to attach an additional wheel and chain somewhere? Or maybe a heavy flywheel on the crank?

[AMuzi]

I have no idea about that.

If you want more work on short rides, sprint.
Or go a couple blocks off the shortest route, faster.
Ideally, ad gratuitous climbs, fast, which you wouldn't
normally climb.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Ralph Barone]

Start with a trike with a mid drive system. The third wheel will keep you
off the ground and the mid drive will give you a place to adjust gearing
and add resistance.

[Tim R]

Huh. Never thought of that. You get locked into one idea and don't think of an easier way.

[Tom Kunich]

I don't have any balance at all because of the concussion and I have to problem balancing at very slow speeds on a bicycle. Or at very fast speeds. I have heard it said that they tried to make a two wheeler that wouldn't balance itself and were unable to. Even with really weird geometry. I think that has something to do with self preservation.

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 5:20:40 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> >
> > So you would need a super low gear. One would be plenty I think, no reason to go faster. And you'd need an easily attached resistance like a mag trainer.
> >
> > I have a bike on a mag trainer in my basement but riding in the fresh air would be more fun.
> >
> > The problem I think is that you would fall down. You need the gyroscope effect of rotating wheels to stay up, right? So would you need to attach an additional wheel and chain somewhere? Or maybe a heavy flywheel on the crank?
> I don't have any balance at all because of the concussion and I have to problem balancing at very slow speeds on a bicycle. Or at very fast speeds. I have heard it said that they tried to make a two wheeler that wouldn't balance itself and were unable to. Even with really weird geometry. I think that has something to do with self preservation.

I tried to do some math. 3 mph at 90 rpm should be about a 35 inch gear, right? So that's easy to find.

I don't know if the gyroscope has to be on the wheel, but the crank is turning at 90, and if you put a flywheel on the crank you should have plenty of rotational inertia. So I could stay upright.

But now the problem becomes resistance. Mag trainers (and I suppose hydraulic ones, I only have a mag) depend on the speed, and that rear wheel is barely turning. I'm not sure how to make it slow but still good enough exercise.

[Tom Kunich]

Well I suppose that I can't see much difference in adding some sort of resistance to your bike so that you can get exercise riding around your immediate neighborhood and simply going to your nearest track for cars or whatever and riding at higher speeds. For that matter, riding back from part of my ride yesterday into a flogging headwind in an area I usually do 21 or 22 on a slight downhill, I could barely hold 11 mph. And I'm usually passed by groups in that area and no one showed up. There is an area around here where you ride in to the "half-way house" which has a substantial amount of climbing (25 miles in half of which is climbing) and the way back feels like entirely downhill for some reason. Even though there is a pretty good grade you have to clear for the final drop to your parking area.)

Are you trying to replace a trainer? Are you trying to stay close to home? What is the philosophy of your invention?

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know if the gyroscope has to be on the wheel, but the crank is turning at 90, and if you put a flywheel on the crank you should have plenty of rotational inertia.

An extensive set of experiments, long enough ago that I don't remember
who, where, what, or when, showed that gyroscopes have nothing to do
with it.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Tim R]

I'm trying to remember too. But I thought someone built a bike with counter rotating wheels, and that it couldn't be balanced. Did I get that wrong? Maybe it's not an issue, but for sure a bike is hard to ride very slowly.

[Tim R]

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:13:17 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Are you trying to replace a trainer? Are you trying to stay close to home? What is the philosophy of your invention?

I'm sneaking up on 70, arthritis in my ankles means I can't run anymore. Running was part of my identity.

I'm still working out, on an indoor trainer. My 70s vintage Super LaTour sits on a mag trainer in the basement. As I've aged and started to heal more slowly, I'm more wary of riding a bike fast or far, especially in my area which is not bike or pedestrian friendly, and has some of the most inattentive drivers around.

My neighborhood is about three blocks by six blocks and is quiet and friendly. I walk it daily and would add a gentle bike ride, in the fresh air where i can wave at neighbors and dogs that know me. (no loose dogs here, nor unpermitted yard sales. No crime, so cops have lots of time to enforce!)

Today on my walk a three wheel bike passed me. I hadn't seen one before. He was moving faster than me, but slower than a real runner - probably half way between. I think that may be the real solution to what I'm looking for.

[AMuzi]

On 7/16/2021 8:55 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know if the gyroscope has to be on the wheel, but the crank is turning at 90, and if you put a flywheel on the crank you should have plenty of rotational inertia.
>
> An extensive set of experiments, long enough ago that I don't remember
> who, where, what, or when, showed that gyroscopes have nothing to do
> with it.
>

It's the famous article in Physics Today April 1970 by Dr
David Jones, "The Unrideable Bicycle". I have a photocopy
but The Inter Webs seem unable to find it.

[AMuzi]

Most adult tricycles run at old-guy-with-walker speeds, for
which three wheels are very handy in not falling over.

Perhaps you saw a Raleigh TriStar electric tricycle?

https://ebikesforsale.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-21-at-11.43.41-AM-1024x846.png

[Tim R]

Unfortunately he went by me while I was distracted by a phone call from work. By the time I realized what it was it was to far ahead to see details. It had a flag with blinking red LED mounted on a long whippy pole on the left side. From behind it looked like two wheels in front, and he was reclined a bit. Now I have to watch for him again.

[Tim R]

Yes! I had a vague memory of that one. Google found it on Community PTC. So the gyroscope is meaningless. Steering geometry is the fix.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 7:19:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/16/2021 8:55 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> > <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't know if the gyroscope has to be on the wheel, but the crank is turning at 90, and if you put a flywheel on the crank you should have plenty of rotational inertia.
> >
> > An extensive set of experiments, long enough ago that I don't remember
> > who, where, what, or when, showed that gyroscopes have nothing to do
> > with it.
> >
> It's the famous article in Physics Today April 1970 by Dr
> David Jones, "The Unrideable Bicycle". I have a photocopy
> but The Inter Webs seem unable to find it.

As I recall, the gist of the article was that assuming the rider has learned to balance a bike, it's very difficult to build a
near-normal bike that can't be balanced.

Jim Papadopoulos has done a lot of work on self-balancing bicycles, which is a somewhat different matter. Among many
other things, he's investigated the fact that a riderless bike tends to balance itself. Others have attacked the astonishingly
difficult physics of that phenomenon, but he's had far more success than most.

A few years ago there were articles about a near-normal bike that was almost impossible to ride, at least without
extensive re-training. That one had a set of gears built into the steering mechanism so that turning the handlebars
to the left made the wheel turn toward the right. Nobody could ride it without lots and lots of practice. And IIRC, once
they learned they had trouble riding a normal bike for a while.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 7:04:38 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm still working out, on an indoor trainer. My 70s vintage Super LaTour sits on a mag trainer in the basement. As I've aged and started to heal more slowly, I'm more wary of riding a bike fast or far, especially in my area which is not bike or pedestrian friendly, and has some of the most inattentive drivers around.

I strongly suggest you look into this organization: https://abea.bike/programs/

Get a copy of _Street Smarts_ from their online link, then go to
https://cyclingsavvy.org//courses/essentials-short-course/
and do at least their free online course. They also have in-person courses, although they are only sparsely available,
depending where you live.

Despite the hype and fear, riding a bike is a very safe activity. Using some simple techniques as taught in those classes,
very ordinary people have learned to ride with confidence and enjoyment in all sorts of places. And as a bonus, their
classes will make you aware of the hidden and complicated hazards of "bike friendly" places.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 10:22:31 -0700 (PDT), Tim R

<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 10:19:51 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/16/2021 8:55 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> > On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
>> > <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I don't know if the gyroscope has to be on the wheel, but the crank is turning at 90, and if you put a flywheel on the crank you should have plenty of rotational inertia.
>> >
>> > An extensive set of experiments, long enough ago that I don't remember
>> > who, where, what, or when, showed that gyroscopes have nothing to do
>> > with it.
>> >
>> It's the famous article in Physics Today April 1970 by Dr
>> David Jones, "The Unrideable Bicycle". I have a photocopy
>> but The Inter Webs seem unable to find it.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>Yes! I had a vague memory of that one. Google found it on Community PTC. So the gyroscope is meaningless. Steering geometry is the fix.

Somewhere I read a statement about bicycles that if the gyroscope
effect was what "kept them up" then why did one have to learn how to
ride a bicycle :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

The Raleigh has two wheels on the back. If it had two up front it might be
a Catrike or a Terratrike.

[Bertrand]

>> An extensive set of experiments, long enough ago that I don't remember
>> who, where, what, or when, showed that gyroscopes have nothing to do
>> with it.
>>
>
> It's the famous article in Physics Today April 1970 by Dr David Jones, "The
> Unrideable Bicycle". I have a photocopy but The Inter Webs seem unable to find it.
>

I found a pdf of that article:

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.2364246

[AMuzi]

Thank you.
Highly recommended to anyone interested in 'bicycles' and
'tech'.

[Frank Krygowski]

Good find! I've saved it. Thanks.

--
- Frank Krygowski