Lynskey no rim brakes

[Mark cleary]

I happen to go on Lynskey sight to see the sales and in the road bike category they don't list any rim brake bikes as an option. I have to admit today and Sunday's ride was at times in the rain and all of the time Sunday, I can see the wisdom of disk but probably going to not go that direction for awhile
Deacon Mark

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/13/2021 11:27 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
> I happen to go on Lynskey sight to see the sales and in the road bike category they don't list any rim brake bikes as an option. I have to admit today and Sunday's ride was at times in the rain and all of the time Sunday, I can see the wisdom of disk but probably going to not go that direction for awhile
> Deacon Mark
>

I'll go there when they pull my cantilever brakes out of my cold dead
hands. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 7/13/2021 8:27 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
> I happen to go on Lynskey sight to see the sales and in the road bike category they don't list any rim brake bikes as an option. I have to admit today and Sunday's ride was at times in the rain and all of the time Sunday, I can see the wisdom of disk but probably going to not go that direction for awhile
> Deacon Mark

Yes, disc brakes have become standard on most mid-range to high-end
models. The $100 Walmart bikes will still have rim brakes, but if you
look at even department store bikes, the ones $400 and up will now have
mechanical disc brakes. They don't cost the manufacturer much more than
rim brakes. It's like cars moving from drum brakes to disc brakes, not
many drum brake cars anymore. Cheap kid's bikes still have rim brakes,
and some cruisers are still using coaster brakes. Most folders are still
rim brakes, except for electric folders.

Look at the REI site
<https://www.rei.com/c/bikes?ir=category%3Abikes&pagesize=90> and nearly
every adult bike, except for cruisers, have disc brakes.

As Abraham Lincoln said: "anyone still using rim brakes is standing in
the way of human progress."

[jbeattie]

This one has a rim brake: https://lynskeyperformance.com/r300-road-frameset/ One can always buy a Habanero or some other Ti brand. I hear Tom Kunich has some classic Ti bikes for sale.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

The bike industry gave up selling something to you 20 years ago.

Lou

[sms]

On 7/13/2021 9:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> This one has a rim brake: https://lynskeyperformance.com/r300-road-frameset/ One can always buy a Habanero or some other Ti brand. I hear Tom Kunich has some classic Ti bikes for sale.

Yes, you can still buy road frames that aren't designed for disc brakes,
but for a complete bike it's not that common to find a complete mid to
high end bike, even a road bike, with rim brakes. It's really hard to
find a mountain bike with rim brakes.

[jbeattie]

More like 35. I'm not sure he even owns a pair of dual pivots.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

I read about cantilever brakes in my history book.

[Tom Kunich]

No, I am not selling the Ti bikes. All three of them are the right size for me whereas most of the others are size XL or 58 cm which is too small for me. The bikes I have for sale presently are:

Eddy Merckx Elite - with Campy 10 speed.
Greg Lemond Zurich with external Di2 11 speed
Colnago CLX3.0 with internal Di2 11 speed.
Felt F55X with Shimano XT 10 speed group - this is a gravel bike with a flat bar and disk brakes.

[Frank Krygowski]

You're right!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

If you have a cyclocross bike with drop bars the only way to go it V-brakes with the proper road bike V-brakes for road levers. I don't like disk brakes for an application like this because they are WAY too strong.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, fashion is weird and powerful.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

A guy sent me a picture of one of the TT bikes Trek made for the team in the Tour. They have rim brakes built into the rear side of the forks and the rear brake looks like a Delta brake. These must have been made special. They are a perfect aero fit.

[AMuzi]

Yep, the fashion industry snookered a whole generation into
cantilever brakes and triple cranksets. Weird.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

And they did it in the most sly way possible: by making them the most rugged and versatile choice!

When something lasts a generation, is it really "fashion"?

- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 7/13/2021 12:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Yep, the fashion industry snookered a whole generation into cantilever
> brakes and triple cranksets. Weird.

The downside to disc brakes is that it's now a lot easier to have a very
out of true wheel and not have to do anything about it. With rim brakes
it was hard to ignore a seriously out of true wheel.

[John B.]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:26:37 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Only in America :-)

Here cheap bikes sold in department stores all seem to have cable disc
brakes. I had assumed that it was because they were cheaper for the
manufacturer to install then the Vee brakes that you used to see.
When I say "cheaper" I'm talking about bikes in the 2 - 3,000 baht
($62 - $93) range.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On the other hand why would one want to buy something new if the old
one worked.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

That's what I think too. I do have one bike with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo levers and Veloce rear derailleur. I do ride my 6-speed and 7-speed Uniglide cassette equipped bikes a lot more though. I've never had a problem with my side-pull brakes stopping me. I do like my V-brakes equipped drop-bar MTB bike for winter riding though.

Cheers

[Ralph Barone]

Around the time Frank stopped buying...

[John B.]

I've posted before but when the first "battle of the disc" erupted
here I tested my "knock about" vee brake equipped bike. An old 26 inch
mountain bike that I've fitted a solid fork to and used to ride back
and forth around the neighborhood.

I found that on a black top road I could lock either or both wheels
with no problems whatsoever with the regular old factory installed Vee
brakes. I find it difficult to figure out how braking force can be
much better then stopping the wheel from turning.

As for the argument that rim brakes wear the rim. I'm sure that this
is true but I now have 3 road bikes all of which are over 10 years old
with no rim problems so far and I doubt that replacing rims at more
then ten year intervals is really going to be a burden, financially or
work wise.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

So no disk brakes for you. Good, no problem. Be able to lock your wheels is not the only and not the best performance criteria of your brakes. I could lock my rear wheel with my coaster brake when I was a kid, especially in the wet. Locking you wheels is something you try to prevent btw.

Lou

[AMuzi]

in re fashion:
There are Dutch girls with internal gearbox & drum brakes
who think your equipment is overly complex & futzy.

Everyone has an opinion, which is great, but general rules
aout 'best' fail any serious examination.

[Frank Krygowski]

General rules about "best" depend on many factors. Primary should be the
details of the application. My 3 speed is best for my local short
distance utility rides (like the Dutch girls), but not for long rides in
the country and not for steep hills.

But when there's sudden and sector-wide shift to a new system like disc
brakes? When almost nobody had been complaining about their braking
beforehand? When the riding requirements were exactly the same as
before? And when the New Adopters conjure lots of tales about how their
recent purchase proved to be almost life saving?

That's fashion.

It very much reminds me of the sudden change in bicycle hat styles that
occurred around 1980.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Yes, we know -- and yet many non-Frank individuals have benefitted from those hats (including me) and discs and dual pivots and STI and step-in pedal systems -- and all the other cycling improvement since 1987 that you have never owned but frequently comment upon -- usually dismissively as "fashion."

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 7/14/2021 7:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

>> It very much reminds me of the sudden change in bicycle hat styles that
>> occurred around 1980.
>
> Yes, we know -- and yet many non-Frank individuals have benefitted from those hats (including me) and discs and dual pivots and STI and step-in pedal systems -- and all the other cycling improvement since 1987 that you have never owned but frequently comment upon -- usually dismissively as "fashion."
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

No one could possibly have benefited from something that they did, or
benefited from a piece of equipment that they used, unless Frank also
benefited from it.

You only think that you benefited from helmets, discs, dual pivots, STI,
and clip-less pedals, you really didn't. You can't prove that any of
those things had any benefit to you.

From Broadcast News:

Peter Hackes as Paul: “It must be nice to always believe you know
better. To think you’re always the smartest person in the room.”

Holly Hunter as Jane: “No, it’s awful.”

[Tom Kunich]

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:41:15 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. Triples came in with the old 53/42's and 14/23 freewheels. Cantilevers were necessary to fit touring tires.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, do you really believe that disks have benefitted you to any extent? You can make your point about clearing water off of the brake faster, but those damned 55 mm deep carbon aero wheels I have don't stop for shit and I don't have any trouble in traffic or elsewhere under any conditions.

[John B.]

How would you measure maxim braking power if not by being able to stop
the wheel from rotating?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

I bought a disc CX bike >15 years ago for a commuter because of improved wet braking and so I didn't have to replace my rims, which get ground down with grit. I switched from cable to hydro discs a few years ago on the commuter. They stop better in wet weather and rims last longer (forever assuming no catastrophe) so yes, they have benefitted me -- subject to pad costs and initial purchase costs. I have a fast rain bike (Synapse) and a gravel bike (Norco), both with hydro discs, and I like them, too. My Trek is a direct mount rim brake, and it stops fine, although my Shimano C35 aluminum brake tracks are a bit beat up. It's a dry weather bike. A good dual pivot on an ordinary aluminum rim is excellent in dry weather. I wouldn't bother with discs on a TdF bike except that they stop a lot better on CF rims, which people seem to want these days.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

We can talk about these things individually, but only if you understand that I've tried them all,
except clipless pedals. I did do some riding with the old classic cleats, which are the power output
equivalent, just with less convenience.

But to concentrate on two items in the list: You and lots of others claim benefit from foam hats.
Some of those tales are probably true, but most of them must be false. Why? Because the number
of "Helmet saved my life" etc. stories greatly exceed the national data on concussion and TBI
fatality reductions. Where is the drop in TBI bike fatalities due to helmet use? It's not visible! The
number of bike TBI deaths parallels the number of pedestrian deaths (both gradually trending
downward at the same rate) even though pedestrians don't wear helmets - and even though the
pedestrian count is something like seven times as high as the bike count.

Maybe we should look at the drop in bike concussions instead? Good luck. There's been no drop
attributable to helmets. Instead, bike concussions have soared over 60% during the time helmets
became heavily used. The needle isn't even moving in the right direction.

Sure, there are many people who _think_ they benefited from helmets. Having an oversized,
fragile foam hat strike the ground is like a religious experience akin to faith healing. "It touched
and I'm still alive!! It's a miracle justifying my purchase!" But an oversized fragile hat is almost _designed_ to give false positives. It's like wearing oversized styrofoam clown shoes and
claiming every dent in the foam prevented a broken foot.

About disc brakes: Some people benefit - specifically, the small portion of bicyclists who ride
in wet conditions and need to brake hard. That subset consists of a few hundred people in
Portland, Oregon and the gnarliest mountain bikers. Nobody else I know has really complained about
their brakes since the days of long reach centerpulls. It's not like the TransAmerica Trail has piles
of dead cycletourists along the mountain pass downhills.

The others that think they benefit are really saying "I used to have to squeeze with five pounds
force! Now I only have to squeeze with 3 pounds force!" To me, that's a negligible benefit, even
if you discount the increased likelihood of newbies (or even experienced riders) going over the
bars by over-braking in a panic stop.

The switch to disc brakes for road bikes was really sudden. It happened almost simultaneously
across the industry. It was touted as providing benefits that almost nobody really needs. It has
all the hallmarks of a fashion trend.

- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 15/7/21 1:31 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>
> We can talk about these things individually, but only if you
> understand that I've tried them all, except clipless pedals. I did do
> some riding with the old classic cleats, which are the power output
> equivalent, just with less convenience.

Cleats with toe clips and straps are not only less convenient but less
comfortable too, and probably less safe. If the toe straps are tight
enough to prevent you from pulling a foot they usually cut the blood
supply off to some of your toes, or so I found. Clipless pedals are
safer because you tend to disengage during a crash or with quick
reflexes can get a foot to the ground quick enough to prevent a silly
fall over. Before that it was a case of learn to track stand or suffer
the inconvenience. That's not all bad. Learning to track stand was
very useful even riding with clipless pedals. Faster to get going from
a standing start.

>
> About disc brakes: Some people benefit - specifically, the small
> portion of bicyclists who ride in wet conditions and need to brake
> hard. That subset consists of a few hundred people in Portland,
> Oregon and the gnarliest mountain bikers. Nobody else I know has
> really complained about their brakes since the days of long reach
> centerpulls. It's not like the TransAmerica Trail has piles of dead
> cycletourists along the mountain pass downhills.
>
> The others that think they benefit are really saying "I used to have
> to squeeze with five pounds force! Now I only have to squeeze with 3
> pounds force!" To me, that's a negligible benefit, even if you
> discount the increased likelihood of newbies (or even experienced
> riders) going over the bars by over-braking in a panic stop.

Have you got any data that shows people riding hydraulic disc brake
equipped bikes are more likely to launch over the bars?

It is quite likely that people with less grip strength find hydraulic
disc brakes much nicer to use. Of course there are minuses too, like
dealing with oil and bleeding air from the system.

>
> The switch to disc brakes for road bikes was really sudden. It
> happened almost simultaneously across the industry. It was touted as
> providing benefits that almost nobody really needs. It has all the
> hallmarks of a fashion trend.
>

Disc brakes also cause no damage to the rims. Aluminium rims wear out
fairly slowly, but they do wear out. Carbon fibre seems to be not as
good for rim braking as aluminium, and I think that has driven the
change to disc brakes for the top end road racing bikes.

For cyclocross and mountain biking or even touring, there's no need to
tamper with the brakes to remove a wheel. More pluses. In most things
there are trade offs, and still some grand tour competitors prefer rim
brakes.
https://cyclingtips.com/2021/02/chris-froome-is-mostly-right-about-disc-brakes/

--
JS

[John B.]

It is said that wearing a bicycle helmet "may" save your life and the
NIH has stated obesity has a dramatic reduction in life expectancy
compared with people of normal weigh. As much as 14 years.

Logically while one might see a cyclist wearing a helmet certainly one
certainly would never see any overweight people.

Right?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I'll address that.

Disc brakes may or may not offer any real advantage to your
average putz but, harking back to an argument for 'fashion',
if mid to low price bicycles have them and the 19 year olds
trying their blessed best in your strip mall 'bike shops'
know how to service them and stock common pad formats,
where's the problem?

About 40 years ago we sold scads of triple crank equipped
bicycles with cantilever brakes to people who seldom rode
farther than the grocery. My friend in southern Illinois
sold many times more of those than we did and the highest
thing in his prairie county is the Interstate overpass.

But riders willingly laid their money on the table and rode
away on a new bike. Where's the problem exactly?

I'm reminded of the quip that modern people have a small
handheld device which can instantly access the entirety of
human knowledge. They use those all day long to argue with
people they have never met.

[AMuzi]

You're right in principle. Practically, I have clipless+SiDi
on a very nice road bike which is great so far as it goes.

I ride more often and more miles on two machines with
toeclips in street shoes 15 or 20 minutes at a time.

Neither is wrong, both systems work fine for what I want at
any given time.

[jbeattie]

For just riding along, clips are fine, assuming they don't scuff your wing-tips. I wouldn't want to go back to them for high effort riding (e.g. multiple straps for track racing), and I would never want to go back to nail-on cleats or the Detto and other shoes of yore. I always loved buying new shoes back in the day, "oh, they're supposed to hurt . . . a lot, and then they break in [and turn into bowling shoes or leather slippers]."

Discs are better than rim brakes by any performance metric -- stopping power, modulation, flexibility with tire and wheel size. They are not better when it comes to cost (pad/initial cost), and installation is more complicated than dual pivots, and one does have to watch pad wear and piston drag. Contrary to Froome's comments, drag is not inevitable, and none of my disc brakes drag -- but they can if pistons get sticky.

So to me, that would mean that V-brakes or or caliper brakes would be better on low-priced lesser ridden bikes. There is less reason for discs on dry weather bikes except they work a lot better with CF rims and they give you more tire options. I would never again get a canti bike since proper set-up is complicated, and braking with STI levers is just O.K. and poor in wet weather.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, they could access the entirety of human knowledge if they were filled with lies and distortions quite purposely.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2021 12:09 AM, James wrote:
> On 15/7/21 1:31 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>> About disc brakes: Some people benefit - specifically,  the small
>> portion of bicyclists who ride in wet conditions and need to brake
>> hard. That subset consists of a few hundred people in Portland,
>> Oregon and the gnarliest mountain bikers. Nobody else I know has
>> really complained about their brakes since the days of long reach
>> centerpulls. It's not like the TransAmerica Trail has piles of dead
>> cycletourists along the mountain pass downhills.
>>
>> The others that think they benefit are really saying "I used to have
>> to squeeze with five pounds force! Now I only have to squeeze with 3
>> pounds force!" To me, that's a negligible benefit, even if you
>> discount the increased likelihood of newbies (or even experienced
>> riders) going over the bars by over-braking in a panic stop.
>
> Have you got any data that shows people riding hydraulic disc brake
> equipped bikes are more likely to launch over the bars?

No, I don't have data, because such granular data on bike crashes is
never available. But I have seen people go over the bars with other
brakes. I've specifically mentioned a woman who had borrowed her
boyfriend's bike with dual pivots, and didn't realize how much less
force they required. She flipped the bike. Shimano used to install
"limiters" (I think they were called) in the front cables of comfort
bikes with V-brakes, apparently to reduce the same type of crashes. I
can't imagine that risk has gone away with discs.

> It is quite likely that people with less grip strength find hydraulic
> disc brakes much nicer to use.  Of course there are minuses too, like
> dealing with oil and bleeding air from the system.

Yes, and that problems tend to be visually hidden, unlike with caliper
brakes where everything is in the open. And shorter pad life, and pads
that are almost all proprietary so possibly unavailable in the future.
And less ability to quickly swap wheels between bikes, as I did for one
ride when I discovered a last minute flat. Not to mention that it's
pretty impractical to retrofit them to a bike you already own.

Instead of discussing those and other details, I'm hoping people will at
least admit discs have disadvantages as well as advantages. I don't hear
that much. Instead I read bike reviews that put "Has caliper brakes" in
the "disadvantages" column. I hear riders saying "My next road bike
_must_ have disc brakes" even though they've never complained about
their caliper brakes, and never needed to.

>> The switch to disc brakes for road bikes was really sudden. It
>> happened almost simultaneously across the industry. It was touted as
>> providing benefits that almost nobody really needs. It has all the
>> hallmarks of a fashion trend.
>>
>
> Disc brakes also cause no damage to the rims.  Aluminium rims wear out
> fairly slowly, but they do wear out.  Carbon fibre seems to be not as
> good for rim braking as aluminium, and I think that has driven the
> change to disc brakes for the top end road racing bikes.

Which just demonstrates the same problem regarding another component.
For whom other than a high level racer does a carbon fiber rim make sense?

> For cyclocross and mountain biking or even touring, there's no need to
> tamper with the brakes to remove a wheel.

Hmm. I agree more with the article you cited below, that wheel changes
are more tricky. Opening a caliper brake is a flick of a switch. In my
admittedly limited experience, getting the rear disc aligned with the
caliper and simultaneously getting the chain on the cogs is trickier.
Oh, and if someone bumps the brake lever, it can be way worse.

  More pluses.  In most things
> there are trade offs, and still some grand tour competitors prefer rim
> brakes.
> https://cyclingtips.com/2021/02/chris-froome-is-mostly-right-about-disc-brakes/

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who recognizes the
disadvantages. But a really important statement is in there: Froom
saying that riders will HAVE to adapt, because discs are "the direction
the _industry_ wants to go." (My emphasis.)

Road bike discs are a fashion, and they are a a fashion driven by
deliberate industry marketing.

Like foam hats.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2021 9:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Disc brakes may or may not offer any real advantage to your average putz
> but, harking back to an argument for 'fashion', if mid to low price
> bicycles have them and the 19 year olds trying their blessed best in
> your strip mall 'bike shops' know how to service them and stock common
> pad formats, where's the problem?

One problem is that unlike rim brakes, servicing them is not visually
obvious. When service is required 30 miles from a bike shop, or when
shops are closed, a rider can be out of luck. (I'll repeat an anecdote:
One of my best cycling friends bought a road bike with discs either late
in 2019 or early in 2020. It was intermittently making weird low-pitched
squeaking noises that turned out to be the rear brake. It took three
tries for the shop owner to get that fixed. My friend would have had no
chance on his own.)

Then there are the "common pad formats." How many are there? How long
before some of those are out of fashion and unobtainable? Or how long
before people start learning that their brake uses, instead, an uncommon
one that takes a week to arrive?

> About 40 years ago we sold scads of triple crank equipped bicycles with
> cantilever brakes to people who seldom rode farther than the grocery. My
> friend in southern Illinois sold many times more of those than we did
> and the highest thing in his prairie county is the Interstate overpass.
>
> But riders willingly laid their money on the table and rode away on a
> new bike. Where's the problem exactly?

I'd agree, those choices are overkill for that service. Even though
cantilevers are lighter than calipers! Whoopee!! ;-)

But I'd say there's less problem with those choices, because by their
nature, they are super-robust. Neither will normally any attention from
those riders for ten years or more. I don't think that's true of road
bike disc brakes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 20:26:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Instead of discussing those and other details, I'm hoping people will at
>least admit discs have disadvantages as well as advantages. I don't hear
>that much.

"8 things they don't tell you about disc brakes"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ-uMif6kjM>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:42:13 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> You're right in principle. Practically, I have clipless+SiDi
> on a very nice road bike which is great so far as it goes.
>
> I ride more often and more miles on two machines with
> toeclips in street shoes 15 or 20 minutes at a time.
>
> Neither is wrong, both systems work fine for what I want at
> any given time.

Yesterday, I went on a long ride with a pair of slot-cleat shoes in my
pannier. I stopped at two stores, and when I had to get off to punch
a stoplight at a not-quite-finished crossing, I continued to walk the
rest of the way through downtown, partly because I wanted to look at
the buildings instead of giving all my attention to the traffic, and
partly because my doctor says I've got osteoporosis and need
weight-bearing exercise. When congestion eased up I rode to Rotary
Park, refilled a bottle, rode a short distance to Zimmer, walked past
the building to cut a winding loop through parking lots off my tour.
(It turned out that the other end of the winding loop had been freshly
paved and was closed to traffic in general and narrow-tired bicycles
in particular, so I was a little smug about my route choice.)

Then I crossed the street to a MUP -- a walkway on which people are
allowed to play with wheel toys -- and rode cautiously to the
City-County Athletic Complex, where I made a pit stop, topped off my
water bottle, got my bottle of tea out of the insulated pannier, and
changed into slot-cleat shoes.

The next eleven miles were all country roads, save for a few rods of
development street between 350 N and the gazebo of TippeRiver Downs
Apartments. Rested, ate, did my sciatica exercises, reported in, and
changed back to walking shoes for going into shops and the county fair
on the way back.

I thought clipless pedals were a marvelous idea when they first came
out -- then I realized that shoes and pedals are a set, no mixing
allowed.

I've never had any trouble getting out of the clips, nor do the toe
straps cut off my circulation.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Andy, are you disparaging triple cranksets????????? I sure hope not. I love triple cranksets, on the right bikes. My loaded touring bike has a triple crank. Of course. Climbed mountains in Europe and Colorado. Gotta have a triple crank on a loaded touring bike. My other triple is a road racing style bike. Its the bike I take to Colorado or anywhere there are lots of long steep hills. Plenty of low gears. Perfect. 99.99% of the time I never ever use the little ring. But for the one in 10,000 miles I do need a really low gear, its there ready to go. Yeah triples!!!!!!

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

??????? Its very easy to put the same type of pedals on multiple bikes and use the same shoes on all of those bikes. I have many bikes with dual sided SPD pedals. And a set of sandals and mountain bike shoes that take SPD cleats on the bottom. I can use either of those shoes with any of the SPD pedal equipped bikes. And those shoes are very easy to walk in. If I was going on a multi week tour on the bike I would just take my SPD sandals as my only shoes. They work perfectly fine for walking around town.

My other bikes have SPD-SL three bolt triangle cleats and pedals. They are my racing bikes. So they are only used for riding, no stopping during the ride to walk around. Just hobble in and out of the convenience stores with the road cleat shoes. They work perfectly great for their purpose. And as long as you restrict yourself to their intended purpose, you are great. When I am on a bike ride with those shoes I never ever even think about walking around town. Its bike ride only.

I started bicycling with toe clips long long long ago. Sneakers and toe straps. Then classic cycling cleats and toe straps. I'm guessing I jumped for joy when I finally got to ditch toe straps when I got my first Time Equipe pedals and Duegi shoes. Clipless. SO MUCH BETTER.

> I've never had any trouble getting out of the clips, nor do the toe
> straps cut off my circulation.
>

You don't have the straps pulled tight. They are loose. So you can't pull up on the pedals. And your shoes move around on the pedals. You are only half arse using your toe clips and straps correctly. You're using them half or more incorrectly. With tight straps, circulation will be cut off to your toes. And they will go numb. But your feet will be tight and secure to the pedals and you will be able to pedal like a madman and always stay connected to the bike.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I have a number of bikes with toe-clips and straps. When using my cleated shoes on those pedals I snug up the straps. I can pull up on the pedals quite hard without having my foot come off the pedal yet I don't have my circulation cut off.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

No, I'm not disparaging anything. Triple cranks are nice, as
is my 151mmx44t fixed crank, as are modern 34x48 compacts
and 42x52 BioPace. Ride what you like, just ride.

My point was that 'fashion' as a pejorative cuts in all
directions, not just today's latest trends.

[Tom Kunich]

I have some friends that used to race. He is the one whose Colnago CF bike collapsed and now he is so anti-carbon that he had custom steel Tomassini's made for him and his wife. They won't ride anything but Campy triples and they even exchange the 30 for a 24. He just sent me a picture of them climbing some pass in Colorado that is 10,000 feet high. Since the started from the adjacent town at 7.500 feet it wasn't that big a deal I guess and the average grade he said is 1.5%. But the pictures show it. (And also show his wife dropping him like a stone.)

[Frank Krygowski]

+1


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/19/2021 11:42 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:18:12 PM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>
>> I thought clipless pedals were a marvelous idea when they first came
>> out -- then I realized that shoes and pedals are a set, no mixing
>> allowed.
>>
>
> ??????? Its very easy to put the same type of pedals on multiple bikes and use the same shoes on all of those bikes. I have many bikes with dual sided SPD pedals. And a set of sandals and mountain bike shoes that take SPD cleats on the bottom. I can use either of those shoes with any of the SPD pedal equipped bikes. And those shoes are very easy to walk in. If I was going on a multi week tour on the bike I would just take my SPD sandals as my only shoes. They work perfectly fine for walking around town.
>
> My other bikes have SPD-SL three bolt triangle cleats and pedals. They are my racing bikes. So they are only used for riding, no stopping during the ride to walk around. Just hobble in and out of the convenience stores with the road cleat shoes.

I still don't like the limitations inherent in your scheme. I want to be
able to ride any bike I own with (almost) any shoes I own.

The bikes I usually use for longer rides are my tandem and my touring
bike, so I suppose those would be the ones most people would equip with
clipless; but instead I have toe clips, generally used with fairly loose
straps.

Why? As an example, last night my wife and I rode to a friend's house
for a social visit (and to drop off some of our extra blueberries). We
didn't "suit up" or change our shoes. We just rode over. (And since we
stayed longer than planned, we flicked on our dynamo lights for the ride
home.) I would not have wanted to change shoes for something like that.

Example #2: This past week we traveled to a large city for an overnight
stay, seeing museums and other sites over the two days. Of course we
took our folding bikes along. We squeezed in two fairly short but
pleasant bike rides, wearing the same footwear we used in the art
museum, our somewhat fancy hotel, etc. Our platform pedals caused zero
discomfort with ordinary footwear, but if I want to, I'm capable of
jumping the bike even though the straps are a bit loose.

I understand you have dual-sided pedals, but for most riding I prefer
the amount of retention provided by the loose toe clips and straps
instead of the flat pedal with no straps. Jumping potholes etc. is one
reason.

>> I've never had any trouble getting out of the clips, nor do the toe
>> straps cut off my circulation.
>>
> You don't have the straps pulled tight. They are loose. So you can't pull up on the pedals.

Actual pulling up on the pedals is very rare. Many studies have shown
that the riders who think they do that are almost always just lessening
the downforce on the rear pedal. Yes, lessening the rear downforce helps
power output, mostly at low cadence (steep hills, initial acceleration
from a stop) but it's quite easy with toe straps that are somewhat loose.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

When I was building up my Miele Suprema SLX frameset back in 2001, I decided to go with a racing triple because I thought that I might need/want the lower gearing when I got older. Twenty years later I still don't use the 30 teeth inner ring much but it sure is nice to have when climbing a steep or long grade or bucking a strong headwind when the air around me is very hot and humid.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

When I use my toe-clips and pedals on rides in the country where I ride up long or short steep hills I can FEEL the pull on the shoes when I pull up on the pedals and pull down on t he handlebar. I KNOW for a CERTAINTY that I'm pulling UP on the pedals.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/20/2021 12:03 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> When I was building up my Miele Suprema SLX frameset back in 2001, I decided to go with a racing triple because I thought that I might need/want the lower gearing when I got older. Twenty years later I still don't use the 30 teeth inner ring much but it sure is nice to have when climbing a steep or long grade or bucking a strong headwind when the air around me is very hot and humid.
>

Back in my "only one bike" days in the early 1980s, I put a triple crank
on the bike I used for everything - touring, time trials, club rides,
commuting etc. Touring was the motivation.

I remember being out for a recreational ride with a fellow engineer, a
colleague from work. He had never tried a triple so I traded bikes with
him for a while when we came to a steep hill.

He downshifted and said "Wow! It doesn't matter if there's a hill there
or not!" And his next bike came with a triple.

As I've said, I almost never use the small ring. The exceptions are for
some hills with the tandem or with touring loads. But the downsides are
negligible.

I couldn't imagine going to a 40+ tooth rear cog to get far less gear
range.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I occasionally pull up, or at least believe I do. I certainly pull up
when I jump the bike. Some accomplished racers do pull up during sprints
or other hard accelerations. But as I said, it's rare.

Again, ergometer studies have shown multiple times that riders who swore
they were pulling up were just lessening downforce. You may be
different. Most riders are not.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, you obviously live in an area of sharply limited auto traffic. When I was recovering from my concussion and had my driver's license pulled, I rode everywhere on a touring bike with lights on it. While heavy trucks would give me a very wide birth cars would do exactly the opposite and make me feel like a target. I had VERY bright lights that could not be mistaken for anything other than a vehicle in motion. Moreover, that was at a time when the painted bicycle lanes were still fresh and unmistakable. Cars would enter the bike lane and drive up almost upon me before pulling around me like I was in their way.

I could only say that I was relieved to be able to get my license back and this is why I drive a full sized sedan with complete safety features.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm not sure whether I actually pull up on clip-ins. But I push and pull forward and aft through the upper and lower crank positions.

[jbeattie]

It's easy enough to check -- you just throw flat pedals on your trainer with no clips. Seated, low effort pedaling doesn't have any significant upward component, although it has some fore-aft component spinning. High effort and out of the saddle pedaling does have an upward component. In the toe clip days, we would get spectacular fails with people pulling out in the middle of a sprint -- or pulling out on a climb and having to stall out while getting back into the clip. I can still pull out worn-out step-in cleats (SPD or road) and occasionally do. More importantly for me, a rigid connection between shoe and pedal maintains alignment of my foot and improves pedaling efficiency. I hate flats without clips/retention because its hard to keep my feet centered and planted.

Toe clips are fine for the shopping bike, although I prefer SPD. Some people actually have a harder time flipping toe clips than stomping into double-sided SPDs. If I went back to clips, I would want a shoe with a cleat or ridge on rubber bumps on the shoe sole to keep from smashing my toes in the front of the clips. Maybe I could travel into the past and get some Beta Bikers.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

+1
While flat pedals with bare feet or toeclips with street
shoes are perfectly fine for many riders, the end of
toeclips in competition was marked by Dave Grylls:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/grylls.jpg

At the LA Olympics in 1984 he pulled out at the beginning of
a championship event. Live on the Tee Vee even.

Although there were prior systems, Look had a great product
and that event was critical for their wide acceptance.

[Frank Krygowski]

You need to move out of that hellhole.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

With Look clipless pedals, iirc, some bicyclists actually pulled the upper part of their shoe away from the sole portion because they pulled up so hard. Also, with a lot of track pedals and toe-clips there were two toe-straps again because the upward pull on the straps was so great.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

And like so many things we discuss here, I'm not saying that clipless
aren't superior for racing or other competition. However, very few
cyclists are into racing or competition. They should have other
priorities, and are probably not served best by emulating the racers'
clothing or equipment.

I no longer ride much with the really fast guys in our club. But the one
of those guys who had the most club miles for (IIRC) the last 3 years -
over 10,000 miles not counting his "private" miles - uses toe clips as I
do. In fact, unlike me, he doesn't even use cycling-specific shoes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 11:02:15 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/19/2021 11:42 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:18:12 PM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
> >>
> >> I thought clipless pedals were a marvelous idea when they first came
> >> out -- then I realized that shoes and pedals are a set, no mixing
> >> allowed.
> >>
> >
> > ??????? Its very easy to put the same type of pedals on multiple bikes and use the same shoes on all of those bikes. I have many bikes with dual sided SPD pedals. And a set of sandals and mountain bike shoes that take SPD cleats on the bottom. I can use either of those shoes with any of the SPD pedal equipped bikes. And those shoes are very easy to walk in. If I was going on a multi week tour on the bike I would just take my SPD sandals as my only shoes. They work perfectly fine for walking around town.
> >
> > My other bikes have SPD-SL three bolt triangle cleats and pedals. They are my racing bikes. So they are only used for riding, no stopping during the ride to walk around. Just hobble in and out of the convenience stores with the road cleat shoes.
> I still don't like the limitations inherent in your scheme. I want to be
> able to ride any bike I own with (almost) any shoes I own.
>

Using your logic then the only motor vehicle you could possibly own would be a 4x4 SUV or pickup truck. Since for many people it is sort of common to drive off of paved roadways and onto grass or dirt/gravel roads. Many parking lots at parks or roadside attractions have grass parking areas. So you must only drive a 4x4 vehicle to allow you to absolutely drive on paved roads and maybe unpaved surfaces too. But for parts of my driving life I was able to survive just fine without a 4x4. Just a front wheel drive car!!!!!! It was fun when I did have a 4x4 pickup. Being able to go about anywhere at anytime was fun. But not absolutely necessary. I was a little more selective and careful with the 2 wheel drive car.

Thus I find it very fine to restrict my riding by wearing certain shoes with certain bikes. Road Shimano SPD-SL pedals and road racing style shoes with triangle cleats for "serious" rides. With not much or any off bike walking around. Just hobble in and out of convenience stores allowed. And mountain bike SPD pedals and sandals or shoes for rides that do have or may have far more walking involved. Too restrictive and purposeful?

When using shoes with cleats on the bottom you do pull backwards on the pedal as you go around the stroke. I agree you don't really pull up when riding. But you do drag your shoe along the bottom of the pedal during the pedal stroke. And you can when the back plate of the pedal is enclosed in the cleat on the bottom of the shoe. Real toe clips and straps and cleated shoes. Using toe clips with non cleated shoes and you are about certain to pull your shoe out the back of the toestrap when riding. Unless you really tightened down the strap.


> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 12:41:07 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> +1
> While flat pedals with bare feet or toeclips with street
> shoes are perfectly fine for many riders, the end of
> toeclips in competition was marked by Dave Grylls:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/grylls.jpg
>
> At the LA Olympics in 1984 he pulled out at the beginning of
> a championship event. Live on the Tee Vee even.
>

He was a track cyclist and pulled out??????? How is that possible? I thought track guys back then used two straps and cinched it down super hard and tight before any event.

[AMuzi]

On 7/21/2021 1:15 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 12:41:07 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> +1
>> While flat pedals with bare feet or toeclips with street
>> shoes are perfectly fine for many riders, the end of
>> toeclips in competition was marked by Dave Grylls:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/grylls.jpg
>>
>> At the LA Olympics in 1984 he pulled out at the beginning of
>> a championship event. Live on the Tee Vee even.
>>
>
> He was a track cyclist and pulled out??????? How is that possible? I thought track guys back then used two straps and cinched it down super hard and tight before any event.
>
>
>
>
>> Although there were prior systems, Look had a great product
>> and that event was critical for their wide acceptance.

Mr Grylls' thighs were bigger than my waist. Solid muscle.
You can say it's improbable but it happened- there's video
somewhere of it.

[Tom Kunich]

I watched track racers actually tear the straps apart. Having used clips and straps for a long time that is almost unthinkable for me and my quads were 2" high and 4" round. But of course I used gears and those track guys were fixed.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/21/2021 2:07 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 11:02:15 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> I still don't like the limitations inherent in your scheme. I want to be
>> able to ride any bike I own with (almost) any shoes I own.
>>
>
> Using your logic then the only motor vehicle you could possibly own would be a 4x4 SUV or pickup truck. Since for many people it is sort of common to drive off of paved roadways and onto grass or dirt/gravel roads. Many parking lots at parks or roadside attractions have grass parking areas. So you must only drive a 4x4 vehicle to allow you to absolutely drive on paved roads and maybe unpaved surfaces too. But for parts of my driving life I was able to survive just fine without a 4x4. Just a front wheel drive car!!!!!! It was fun when I did have a 4x4 pickup. Being able to go about anywhere at anytime was fun. But not absolutely necessary. I was a little more selective and careful with the 2 wheel drive car.

Sorry, your four wheel drive argument fails in exactly the same way.

I've never owned a 4WD car, and probably never will. Except for one
really, really unusual exception (an interesting story I'll relate
below) I've never come close to needing it. And that's despite tens of
thousands of miles traveling in small 2WD cars towing our camping
trailer, including on gravel roads. On many occasions (like the annual
county fair, or the rural home of one of my best friends) I've driven
and parked on grass. More to the point, we get snow and ice all the time
in winter. I've got over 50 winters' experience driving in it and never
needed 4WD to negotiate it.

There are people who need it - like, good friends of mine who live atop
a very steep hill in a snowy city. But as with clipless, most people
never get any real benefit from 4WD, but they cheerfully suffer the
detriments of higher initial cost, a more complex system with greater
chance of malfunction, and less gas mileage. They're victims of
advertising.

>>
> When using shoes with cleats on the bottom you do pull backwards on the pedal as you go around the stroke. I agree you don't really pull up when riding. But you do drag your shoe along the bottom of the pedal during the pedal stroke. And you can when the back plate of the pedal is enclosed in the cleat on the bottom of the shoe. Real toe clips and straps and cleated shoes. Using toe clips with non cleated shoes and you are about certain to pull your shoe out the back of the toestrap when riding. Unless you really tightened down the strap.

There's friction between the shoe bottom and the pedal top, aided by the
lumps and bumps molded into most shoes' soles. I do pull back at the
bottom on tough hills, aided by "ankling." That's possible even with
loose straps.

One semi-famous touring personality in the 1970s was Captain Dan Henry.
In addition to lots of interesting bike tours, he did pretty amazing
roller riding demonstrations at bike conventions.

He rode in men's leather dress shoes, not even with toe clips. He
carefully sawed a shallow slot across the leather sole to accommodate
the rear edge of his quill pedal. I used my chronograph wristwatch to
confirm that he could spin about 200 rpm on the rollers.

- - -

My tale of the ONE time 4WD might have helped me:

Our yard slopes downward toward the garage. Alongside the garage were
three small ragged evergreen bushes. Despite the fact that only the
neighbors can see them, SWMBO wanted to replace them with something
prettier. I dreaded the task because it meant digging out the existing
bushes.

One day when the ground was nice and soft after a couple days rain, she
persuaded me to start - but then I had an idea. Maybe I could attach a
long chain to the car's trailer hitch and use the car to at least put
tension on the shrubs as I dug at the roots. Perhaps they'd pop out
after I severed a few roots.

I never got to find out. I backed the car onto the lawn, hooked the
chain around a shrub and the hitch, and tried to apply a little tension.
Even before the slack was taken up, the front wheels sank into the wet
lawn. I had no idea things were that soggy.

I tried the usual remedies of having people help push, rocking the car,
etc. No dice. The front wheels just sank deeper. What to do?

We do carry a basic AAA membership. It includes one free short-distance
tow per year. I decided to use it for the shortest tow ever: from my
lawn to my driveway.

A nice young guy arrived with a big flatbed truck with a cable winch.
With his truck on our driveway, he had no trouble at all winching our
car onto the pavement. Hauling 3000 pounds across wet grass was easy.

Then came the unusual part: I said to him "Say, what would you think
about using that winch to pull these shrubs out of the ground?"

"Oh, I couldn't do that without checking with my supervisor first! I'm
sure I'm only supposed to use this for official business. I mean, I
could phone him if you like, but I'd have to get his permission!"

I said "Your boss doesn't know how long it took you to pull my car free.
If you don't tell him, he'll never find out. How about $10 per bush?"

He thought for a couple seconds, then said "OK, I'll give it a try."

And it worked beautifully! The cable winch sucked each bush right out of
the ground with no trouble. I actually gave the kid $50.

- - -

Follow up: We got new neighbors about three years ago, a young couple.
The guy is muscular and macho. They decided to rip out most of the
foundation landscaping in front of the house. One large shrub gave him a
_lot_ of trouble as he dug deeper and deeper, hacking at large roots. He
had the same idea, hooking a chain to his big 4x4 pickup and alternately
trying to pull, then trying to hack some more.

With the chain hooked at ground level, he spun his 4x4 tires on his lawn
but the bush's roots held fast. After a while I suggested he attach the
chain higher on the trunk to get torque on the roots. Doing that, he was
able to pull it out.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 8:46:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/21/2021 2:07 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 11:02:15 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> I still don't like the limitations inherent in your scheme. I want to be
> >> able to ride any bike I own with (almost) any shoes I own.
> >>
> >
> > Using your logic then the only motor vehicle you could possibly own would be a 4x4 SUV or pickup truck. Since for many people it is sort of common to drive off of paved roadways and onto grass or dirt/gravel roads. Many parking lots at parks or roadside attractions have grass parking areas. So you must only drive a 4x4 vehicle to allow you to absolutely drive on paved roads and maybe unpaved surfaces too. But for parts of my driving life I was able to survive just fine without a 4x4. Just a front wheel drive car!!!!!! It was fun when I did have a 4x4 pickup. Being able to go about anywhere at anytime was fun. But not absolutely necessary. I was a little more selective and careful with the 2 wheel drive car.
> Sorry, your four wheel drive argument fails in exactly the same way.
>
> I've never owned a 4WD car, and probably never will. Except for one
> really, really unusual exception (an interesting story I'll relate
> below) I've never come close to needing it. And that's despite tens of
> thousands of miles traveling in small 2WD cars towing our camping
> trailer, including on gravel roads. On many occasions (like the annual
> county fair, or the rural home of one of my best friends) I've driven
> and parked on grass. More to the point, we get snow and ice all the time
> in winter. I've got over 50 winters' experience driving in it and never
> needed 4WD to negotiate it.

I have/do own(ed) 4WD/AWD and front wheel drive -- and rear wheel drive. If you have shitty summer tires, none of them are that great in snow. The best ski car I owned was a 4Runner in 4WD with asphalt eating studs. Hit the gas and dump the foo's in the conga line -- no slipping, no fuss, no muss. https://tinyurl.com/e5sm443k The Subaru AWD with Blizzaks is pretty good, but you have to go slower in that car, even though it is lower to the ground and has better suspension. The FW drive car was so long ago, and I always wimped out and used chains --- thwack, thwack, thwack. No thanks. Creeping around inner-city without chains in the snow with the FW drive was O.K. and way better than RW drive. You can slide around in a RW drive car on even low slope roads. Unlike your village, we have hills, some of them very steep.

AWD is common and not really anything special. I can get by with AWD and good snow tires, but if I move down the Gorge, I'd go back to a 4WD since it is just more positive in snow and ice and steep slopes. Probably get some more asphalt eating studs -- or not, depending on guilt level.

-- Jay Beattie.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I started racing in 1985, when clipless pedals were still very new. I have a picture somewhere of me in the 1989 Longsjo Criterium reaching down to cinch up the clip after the start. I was one of the last holdouts on my team with toe-clips because I saw two instances in one season where a mis-adjusted cleat caused crashes. One was in the sprint at the end of a crit, where the riders foot popped off the pedal at the beginning of the downstroke such that the chainring quite nearly severed the top of his achilles tendon. That was literally a bloody mess. The other was another crit where the rider was accelerating out of a corner and came out of the pedal. That caused a crash with several riders but no one was seriously hurt. I finally bought a pair of speedplays in 1993, and I've used them ever since. In 28 years I have never ever pulled out of a speed play pedal, but have detached the uppers from a few pairs of shoes.

[jbeattie]

And early clipless weren't perfect either, although in my case, it was my own fault for putting some crappy sale table Mavic re-branded Looks on my track bike. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/epcAAOSwnHZYkfUo/s-l1600.jpg When you pull out of a cleat on a track bike in a sprint, you're hosed unless you can get back in the saddle and do the one-leg flail until you get your foot back in. I pulled out of those more than once at Alpenrose (RIP). http://oregoncyclingaction.blogspot.com/2009/07/obra-track-championships-conclude-with.html https://www.oregonlive.com/resizer/crCn1U9jN1fLgIZQQpT4DXeEcss=/1280x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/O4I3BBCRNNAKVIRLQG4MJASAEQ.jpg
And you didn't want to slow down too much in the bank or you slipped off.

Straps and clips are still used on the track by some -- or a variation of clipless and fat straps. The uber-strong sprinters go for belt and suspenders.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, as with so many other things, I don't claim there are no
advantages; and I understand that those advantages are valuable to you.
They're also valuable to the couple I mentioned who live atop a
super-steep hill where it snows pretty frequently.

But as with so many other things, 4WD/AWD is promoted as valuable for
everybody. (And Subaru even touts that their drivetrain is
"symmetrical," as if that makes any difference to any ordinary motorist.)

A very good bicycling friend of ours just had her car totaled by a woman
intent on running a red light. Our friend is asking my opinion about
replacement cars. I've already told her she doesn't need 4WD or AWD.
She's gotten along fine without it for decades, despite working in the
heart of our area's snowbelt.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Not sure you’d get far less gear range, on the whole the cassette increase
has taken up the reduction in the chain rings, which is not much lower than
modern compacts you see on Gravel bikes with 30/32t inner rings.

Admittedly this is either group sets or buying the bike new, my old MTB had
been 3/9 set up and now is a 1/9 and it has lost range but most new bikes
even ones with 50t or more cassettes are broadly the same as my old MTB
with its 32t cassette, which did amuse me.

Roger Merriman.

[Joy Beeson]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 09:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> When I use my toe-clips and pedals on rides in the country where I ride up long or short steep hills I can FEEL the pull on the shoes when I pull up on the pedals and pull down on t he handlebar. I KNOW for a CERTAINTY that I'm pulling UP on the pedals.

I don't think I've pulled up on the pedals since I stopped delivering
reproduction copies to a printshop in Saratoga.

The street that climbed out of the Mohawk Valley was too steep to
start up on, so stopping for a rest meant walking for miles.

So when I got too tired to push the pedals, I started pulling up and
letting the other foot fall of its own weight, pushing just hard
enough for feedback.

I also adjusted my mind to "this is the way it is, has always been,
and always will be."

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/