Cyclingnews and reality
Qui si parla Campagnolo
cheer...testing a $300 saddle. OMG, what's next.
Steve Watkin
recumbent in-case it gets to be just toooooo uncomfortable !!
SW
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote in message
news:1167747241.8...@k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
jim beam
> I guess Cyclingnews testers are still awash with Newyear's
> cheer...testing a $300 saddle. OMG, what's next.
>
dusto...@mac.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> cheer...testing a $300 saddle. OMG, what's next.
"Did they like it?" --D-y
Qui si parla Campagnolo
handlebars. Yikes.
Ryan Cousineau
A product test we can all love:
http://wiredcola.blogspot.com/2007/01/polar-bear-cyclocross-ride.html
I am especially proud of this build:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/341914646/
$2 saddle, $40 wheelset, $10 bicycle frame, $10 stem, $30 handlebar.
I did splurge and get a $120 crankset,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
Ozark Bicycle
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> cheer...testing a $300 saddle.
That's the easiest way to differentiate your product from the
competition: raise the price and Barnumites will assume it's a superior
product.
> OMG, what's next.
A $450 "Special Edition", replete with a serial number and Certificate
of Authenticity. All in a wooden presentation box, with a titanium
adjusting wrench.
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> cheer...testing a $300 saddle. OMG, what's next.
I was down at the LBS the other day with my vintage Gipiemme Pista
crankset so I could borrow a chainring binder-bolt wrench to tighten my
new chainring. They didn't have such a wrench, but that is beside the
point. All the kids there thought it looked very scrawny, and suspected
it would break without much effort. I didn't bother trying to convince
them otherwise. I figure if Eddy and Bernard could do their thing on
spindly cranks like those, I don't have anyting to worry about. But
then I saw them drooling over a carbon fiber seat. It didn't matter
when I told them I'd seen one break when a bike leaning against a wall
fell over, and that another one I see regularly chews up the owners
expensive Assos shorts with it's sharp edges. They still wanted one.
I remember seeing a photo of CSC's Kurt Asle Arvesen's Cervelo which
had a Selle Italia Max Flite on it. A very reasonable road saddle if
you ask me. When the extreme stuff is too extreme for the pros, things
are out of hand.
Joseph
* * Chas
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:rcousine-07C393...@news.telus.net...
Great looking bike.
I built my first Cyclocross/MTB bike back in 1976. I brazed up the frame
out of Vitus 172 tubing and sprayed it brown primer on Saturday afternoon
and rode it Sunday morning. The paint was still a little tacky but I built
it for the mud. The only new things on it were the Stronglight S5
Competition headset and the Mafac cantilever brakes.
Chas.
* * Chas
<joseph.sa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167765831.9...@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
High end bike shops are missing a real marketing opportunity. Imagine a
shop with a fashion show catwalk with male models in the latest pink lycra
cycling costumes showing the latest bikes from Halston, Versacci et al
doing their stroll. There would be containers of Campy grease handy for
the fashionistas in case they got overcome with the fever....
What would Eddy do?
Chas.
Ryan Cousineau
joseph.sa...@gmail.com wrote:
A great many pros are both very picky and very loyal about their saddle
choices. I believe Armstrong rode a chunky-looking saddle throughout his
career (Selle Italia Rolls?), and it is quite normal for riders to stick
with the first saddle they buy that works.
I used this same formula, but ended up on a Selle Italia Nitrox, a
ridiculous-looking, thinly-padded plastic saddle that one of my friends
immediately termed an "ass hatchet." It fits me so well I own five.
Must be genetic, though: my dad uses the same saddle on his commuter.
Ozark Bicycle
"The Devil Wears Lycra"? ;-)
> There would be containers of Campy grease handy for
> the fashionistas in case they got overcome with the fever....
>
> What would Eddy do?
Vomit?
>
> Chas.
Ryan Cousineau
"* * Chas" <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> news:rcousine-07C393...@news.telus.net...
> > In article <1167751001.5...@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >
> > > jim beam wrote:
> > > > Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > > > > I guess Cyclingnews testers are still awash with Newyear's
> > > > > cheer...testing a $300 saddle. OMG, what's next.
> > > > >
> > > > a brooks swallow?
> > > $300 saddles, $4000 wheelsets, $7000 bicycle frames, $300 stems, $600
> > > handlebars. Yikes.
> >
> > A product test we can all love:
> >
> > http://wiredcola.blogspot.com/2007/01/polar-bear-cyclocross-ride.html
> >
> > I am especially proud of this build:
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/341914646/
> >
> > $2 saddle, $40 wheelset, $10 bicycle frame, $10 stem, $30 handlebar.
> >
> > I did splurge and get a $120 crankset,
> Great looking bike.
Sir is too kind. Actually, sir may be deceived by the crummy photos.
About half of those spots on the frame are rust.
> I built my first Cyclocross/MTB bike back in 1976. I brazed up the frame
> out of Vitus 172 tubing and sprayed it brown primer on Saturday afternoon
> and rode it Sunday morning. The paint was still a little tacky but I built
> it for the mud. The only new things on it were the Stronglight S5
> Competition headset and the Mafac cantilever brakes.
>
> Chas.
76? 700C or 26"? Drop bars?
Michael Press
<c7WdnWvY-s8-IAfY...@comcast.com>,
"* * Chas" <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
You laugh, but today Revlon makes nail enamel colors
that are 50+ years old. `Cherries in the Snow' and
`Fire and Ice' for two. The wildly popular `Vamp' is a
newbie at 25.
--
Michael Press
Ryan Cousineau
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
http://www.eddymerckx.be/bike/chm.jpg
That said, I checked the Accessories section of the site, and he doesn't
make saddles,
Ozark Bicycle
I'm sure you have a point other than the one under your helmet. What is
it?
>
> That said, I checked the Accessories section of the site, and he doesn't
> make saddles,
See above.
JeffWills
* * Chas wrote:
>
> What would Eddy do?
>
> Chas.
Many years ago, I ran into Eddy at Interbike (this was before he simply
sat back and signed autographs). We both watched as a group of shapely
females danced while wearing one company's wares. The only thing I
could say was:
"Do you know what this has to do with cycling?"
Eddy shrugged...
Jeff
* * Chas
> In article <eOSdnVeolLHsJgfY...@comcast.com>,
> "* * Chas" <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> > "Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> > news:rcousine-07C393...@news.telus.net...
> > > A product test we can all love:
> > >
> > >
http://wiredcola.blogspot.com/2007/01/polar-bear-cyclocross-ride.html
> > >
> > > I am especially proud of this build:
> > >
> > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/341914646/
> > >
> > > $2 saddle, $40 wheelset, $10 bicycle frame, $10 stem, $30 handlebar.
> > >
> > > I did splurge and get a $120 crankset,
>
> > Great looking bike.
>
> Sir is too kind. Actually, sir may be deceived by the crummy photos.
> About half of those spots on the frame are rust.
>
> > I built my first Cyclocross/MTB bike back in 1976. I brazed up the
frame
> > out of Vitus 172 tubing and sprayed it brown primer on Saturday
afternoon
> > and rode it Sunday morning. The paint was still a little tacky but I
built
> > it for the mud. The only new things on it were the Stronglight S5
> > Competition headset and the Mafac cantilever brakes.
> >
> > Chas.
>
> 76? 700C or 26"? Drop bars?
>
On our first adventure, we were riding road bikes with silk sewups. Got
dropped by the pack, got bored of chasing and started up a dirt road which
led to a single track. We had such a great time that we put together some
beater bikes for the following weekend.
Most of us rode on cyclocross sewups. We had a good source for cheap
d'Alessandro . Later I got some supper cheap Wolber 700c x 35 balloondos
that I used for riding on trails with sharp rocks. These were the tires
that the French and Belgians used on cobblestone roads with their everyday
one speeds. The beach bums on the westcoast started putting derailleurs on
old Schwinn beach bombers and that's how the perversion of purity got
started. Now, 29" (700c) are the latest for offroad riding.
We started with drop bars but I found some nice upturned flat alloy bars
combined with some gum rubber grips and brake levers from a small
motorcycle.
I never bothered with a front derailleur. I used a set of old Zeus
cottered cranks with a single chainring which I ended up bending one of
the arms. I switched to a set of steel Stonglight cranks which I also
bent. They would be worth a fortune on eBay today. I ended up with a TA
Cyclotouriste 40/26 crankset. I could downshift the chain to the 26T with
my foot. A Suntour steel cage RD handled the 14/34 in the rear.
It wasn't exactly cyclocross because there were no races in our area yet
and only a few of us were crazy enough to ride the way we did. When we
came to a hill that was too steep or a stream too deep, we'd jump off the
bikes, throw them over our shoulders and start running.
BTW, the brown primer hid the rust. ;-)
Chas.
Phil, Non-Squid
How do you know this?
--
Philip Lee
Derk
> I guess Cyclingnews testers are still awash with Newyear's
> cheer...testing a $300 saddle. OMG, what's next.
I'm still trying to talk a cycling buddy out of a carbon seatpost/handlebar
assembly. That's already an enormously difficult task. Now he'll want this
thing too.
But I discovered who buys this stuff here. I went to my LBS some time ago
and a guy came in who looked like he worked hard for his money. He ordered
a Record Gruppo, "and give me a carbon this and that" and then he paid a
few thousand Euro's in cash. I asked the LBS owner how the guy could afford
to buy all this stuff so easily and the owner told me: "all these guys who
do jobs on the side, can't do anything else with their money, but buy
luxury goods and pay cash for it". And then there are the posers, of
course.....
Derk
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
Around here, most all of the fastest guys have top-shelf stuff. There
are a very small minority who are fast and use 105 or similar. And I
don't know any of the slow guys who have extreme gear. Most of us are
in the middle.
Even taken to the extreme of expensive stuff, the hourly price of
cycling even for weekend posers compares favorably to other equipment
based sports or hobbies.
Joseph
Ryan Cousineau
Wonderful setup! Thanks for sharing that. The 40/26 sounds like some
pretty low gearing, but I guess not for off-road. My baseline reference
is the 50/36 (12-26 9v rear) compact double on that Bianchi.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Yep, like a team-mate of Eddy once said, "Eddy can win on my bike, I
can't win on his".
John Forrest Tomlinson
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
I find it bizarre that people routinely use Eddy Merckx to mock the
use of very high-end equipment since in his career Merckx often used
the best stuff he could get. He wasn't riding around on bikes from ten
years previous, or material that was second- or third-of-the-line.
--
JT
****************************
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Qui si parla Campagnolo
Well, he did opt for clampon everything, like cable guides and shifters
when others, like Bianchi, were well into using brazeons.
AND high end 'stuff' was a small pile, nothing exotic. Campag made 3
groups, shimano made 1 or 2.
The most exotic thing he used was the frame made for him by Ernesto
Colnago when he got the HR record.
It was an era of riding, racers, not equipment. The bike was there to
get you there, not some percieved advantage for a rider's shortcomings.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
[about Eddy Merckx]
>Well, he did opt for clampon everything, like cable guides and shifters
>when others, like Bianchi, were well into using brazeons.
That's what was available at the time and considered the best.
>AND high end 'stuff' was a small pile, nothing exotic. Campag made 3
>groups, shimano made 1 or 2.
So did he use the lower level groups? No? Oh, then why use him as an
example.
>The most exotic thing he used was the frame made for him by Ernesto
>Colnago when he got the HR record.
Nearly unobtainable by anyone else.
If the point is that Merckx didn't care about having the best, so why
should lesser racers or racers, then the point is wrong.
>It was an era of riding, racers, not equipment. The bike was there to
>get you there, not some percieved advantage for a rider's shortcomings.
Maybe in reality, but surely not in the racers mind. If not, why did
Merckx bother with rebadged material like the Colnago you mention
above. He would have just ridden a stock bike by Windsor, right?
jason...@gmail.com
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2007 06:07:07 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> >The most exotic thing he used was the frame made for him by Ernesto
> >Colnago when he got the HR record.
>
> Nearly unobtainable by anyone else.
>
> If the point is that Merckx didn't care about having the best, so why
> should lesser racers or racers, then the point is wrong.
I've gotta agree with JT on this one. I would argue that the most
exotic thing Eddy used his Pino Moroni titanium stem, also for the hour
record. Eddy was famous for fiddling and drilling. I think JT's point
may be that the "good enough for Merckx" line has become a tired
cliche, and I would agree with that.
It's true that new riders don't need $5500 Trek Madones with Dura-Ace,
but it sure doesn't hurt the bike industry to sell those things and
hey--if that puts someone new on a bike, what's to complain about?
Cheers,
Jason
M-gineering
> It's true that new riders don't need $5500 Trek Madones with Dura-Ace,
> but it sure doesn't hurt the bike industry to sell those things and
> hey--if that puts someone new on a bike, what's to complain about?
I for one get fed up with novice riders who insist on spending a fortune
on current 10 speeds, after which you have to something silly to get
them legal gearing
--
---
Marten Gerritsen
INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl
Qui si parla Campagnolo
You are missing my point. Sponsored racers used the best of the day.
Point was the exotic stuff used today, and how the posseurs 'gotta have
it'. Equipment was there, for free to sponsored guys, but it was
considered to be superior if it didn't break. A NR rear der worked just
like a SR, but Like today, Campag wanted to sell SR. So little of the
stuff today makes ya a better cyclist. As said many times before, the
object of the ride today is the bike, whereas it should be and was,
'the ride'. The bicycle should disappear beneath you.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On 3 Jan 2007 06:07:07 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
>> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>
>> [about Eddy Merckx]
>> >Well, he did opt for clampon everything, like cable guides and shifters
>> >when others, like Bianchi, were well into using brazeons.
>>
>> That's what was available at the time and considered the best.
>>
>> >AND high end 'stuff' was a small pile, nothing exotic. Campag made 3
>> >groups, shimano made 1 or 2.
>>
>> So did he use the lower level groups? No? Oh, then why use him as an
>> example.
>>
>> >The most exotic thing he used was the frame made for him by Ernesto
>> >Colnago when he got the HR record.
>>
>> Nearly unobtainable by anyone else.
>>
>> If the point is that Merckx didn't care about having the best, so why
>> should lesser racers or racers, then the point is wrong.
>>
>> >It was an era of riding, racers, not equipment. The bike was there to
>> >get you there, not some percieved advantage for a rider's shortcomings.
>>
>> Maybe in reality, but surely not in the racers mind. If not, why did
>> Merckx bother with rebadged material like the Colnago you mention
>> above. He would have just ridden a stock bike by Windsor, right?
>
>You are missing my point. Sponsored racers used the best of the day.
>Point was the exotic stuff used today, and how the posseurs 'gotta have
>it'. Equipment was there, for free to sponsored guys, but it was
>considered to be superior if it didn't break. A NR rear der worked just
>like a SR, but Like today, Campag wanted to sell SR. So little of the
>stuff today makes ya a better cyclist. As said many times before, the
>object of the ride today is the bike, whereas it should be and was,
>'the ride'. The bicycle should disappear beneath you.
Your point is a muddle of messages, some valid and some confused. Top
racers use the best stuff they can get. Guys had to have it back in
the 1970s just like today.
And your claim that at some point in the past it "was, 'the ride'" in
a way that is not true now is baloney. Guys at the time used what
they thought was the best, just like now.
So why do you raise the example of guy who raced top stuff in his
time? Why not raise the example of someone who races with lower level
stuff successfully?
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
jason...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've gotta agree with JT on this one. I would argue that the most
> exotic thing Eddy used his Pino Moroni titanium stem, also for the hour
> record. Eddy was famous for fiddling and drilling. I think JT's point
> may be that the "good enough for Merckx" line has become a tired
> cliche, and I would agree with that.
When I use the "good enough for Merckx" line, I mean that if it didn't
get trashed by his power, it sure won't have any problems with mine. To
me the line says nothing about the value of modern cutting edge stuff.
(That was a pun about carbon saddles...)
> It's true that new riders don't need $5500 Trek Madones with Dura-Ace,
> but it sure doesn't hurt the bike industry to sell those things and
> hey--if that puts someone new on a bike, what's to complain about?
Indeed there is nothing wrong with people using their money however
they see fit (I've spent a lot myself, and I would probably spend more
if I had it), but it seems to increase the focus on the bike, and
convinces many people that perfectly good equipment levels are
"crappy". I would argue that the equipment fixation (on expensive bits)
may actually reduces the number of riders. There was an article this
summer in our local paper about how much some parents spend (it was
written to make it seem like waste) on their kids sports interests.
They took some extreme examples from horse shows, motorcross, etc.
There was a sidebar item about how much it costs to get started in each
of a bunch of sports, which were for the most part rather reasonable.
For some reason they chose to have cycling helmets start at $100, shoes
at $200, bikes at $1200, etc. Just great. They probably called a bike
store and talked to some kid who drank the Unobtanium Kool-Aid, and he
told them what what a rider "needs" to get started. After a summer with
80 hours of Tour de France on TV, I'm sure there was more than one
person contemplating getting into riding who was turned off by the
false high price tags in that article.
Joseph
* * Chas
> Wonderful setup! Thanks for sharing that. The 40/26 sounds like some
> pretty low gearing, but I guess not for off-road. My baseline reference
> is the 50/36 (12-26 9v rear) compact double on that Bianchi.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
40-14 was high enough for most dirt road riding but a little too low for
pavement. I found the only advantage of a super low gear like 26-34 was
being able to pop a wheelie at will to get the front wheel over a log or
rock. I could then jump off the saddle and drag the rear wheel over the
obstacle while standing over the top bar without having to dismount.
For general riding I found anything lower than a 1 to 1 ratio was counter
productive. I was moving too slowly to easily keep balanced. I have 3
bikes with triples, two of them are 28-28 and one is a 30-30. They shift
better also with the slightly closer gearing.
Chas.
* * Chas
"Phil, Non-Squid" <spamph...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:459b5698$0$3937$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
I've used red (not pink) nail polish to touch up paint chips on red bikes
before (besides, no one will see my toe nails). ;-)
Chas.
* * Chas
<joseph.sa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167813692....@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
I ride older steel and aluminum retro stuff. It gives me an excuse for
being slow and old and getting dropped all of the time. ;-)
I hadn't ridden for about 5 years. I experienced some serious sticker
shock the first few times I went into LBSs - $40 bucks for a clincher!
Chas.
Ozark Bicycle
Didn't Merckx ride a pretty stock Peugeot at one point?
Ozark Bicycle
Was it a Barnum Wanaracer 700 x 20?
>
> Chas.
* * Chas
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote in message
news:1167833227.7...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
It's the motor, not the machine. I received a gift of several books on
cycling history. The riders of the past were real iron men. Many smoked
cigarettes while riding and stopped for beer and wine. A lot of the roads
were unpaved. Their times were not that for off from today's top riders.
Chas.
* * Chas
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:a0gnp2loseg2ci9f0...@4ax.com...
I've seen early pictures on Eddy ridding a real stock Peugeot PX-10 or
whatever.
Professionals rebadge bikes because they are being paid to advertise
equipment that they ride.
The difference between one grupo and another was mostly cosmetic - less
than 1/3 a kilo.
Chas.
* * Chas
<joseph.sa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167845044....@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
One Saturday in the mid 1970s we sold a 13 year old a nice inexpensive
French road bike. We took him out with us the next day for an early season
club ride. He was wearing sneakers and we hadn't installed his toeclips
yet.
The rest of us were experienced riders on what we thought was going to be
a short warm up ride. We had a hard time keeping up with the 13 year old.
The next day we changed his gearing and put him under the guidance of our
local former UK pro. Within 4 years Steve went on to become the National
USCF Champion. The weight difference between a standard and a super light
pro bike at the time was less than 2 lbs. A 19 Lb. bike was considered
light. I remember an article about the cost to take weight off a bike was
$100 an ounce.
Chas.
Ozark Bicycle
That's my recollection, too.
* * Chas
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote in message
news:1167843311.6...@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Most of the differences were cosmetic. I remember guys buying complete
sets of titanium or even worse aluminum bolts and nuts for their bikes
which only saved a few grams. I briefly got caught up in the craze but
soon realized that at 175 lbs. I weighed too much to ride radially spoke
Hi-E rims and hubs with 250 gram silks. After I came to my senses and sold
off the ultra light stuff I opted for reliable components that I didn't
have to worry about breaking.
Chas.
Ozark Bicycle
IMO, it would be interesting to have a race series run like the old
IROC auto race series; everyone rides the same bike, save for size,
gearing, fit, saddle, etc.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
I thought he rode an Italian frame rebadged as a Peugeot early in his
pro career.
He surely rode stock frames early (or possibly throughout) his career
as an amateur.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>Professionals rebadge bikes because they are being paid to advertise
>equipment that they ride.
So let's get this straight -- does your sentence above mean they think
there is a difference between different equipment or not?
It seems they are being paid to advertise something they'd rather not
ride -- ie they believe there are substantive differences between
different equipment at times.
John Forrest Tomlinson
So what? Does that mean that Merck didn't care what he rode and was
happy to ride a bike 2 pounds heavier than his peers.
What about the person you're talking about -- what if he was up
against a rider of similar ability? Would he be happy toride a bike
two pounds heavier in the national championships? Ask him? I'm sure
he would ride it if he didn't have a choice, or if the choice cost too
much money. He might even win on it. Would he choose to do so if he
could get a lighter bike that worked well?
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
Ghettodrome racing with old-school track bikes! Everyone can have
whatever bike they want, and they are still all the same.
The Tour de France was run like that for a while, with identical bikes
supplied by the promoter. And there was that race from Breaking Away...
Joseph
David Kerber
usenet...@jt10000.com says...
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:24:09 -0800, "* * Chas"
> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >Professionals rebadge bikes because they are being paid to advertise
> >equipment that they ride.
>
> So let's get this straight -- does your sentence above mean they think
> there is a difference between different equipment or not?
>
> It seems they are being paid to advertise something they'd rather not
> ride -- ie they believe there are substantive differences between
> different equipment at times.
Look at this way: if they (the top riders, anyway) thought that riding
some specific kind of equipment would hurt their chances to win, they
wouldn't ride them even if they were paid to. There is very little
difference between different equipment models and makers at the high
end. If you asked somebody to ride a Tiagra-equipped bike on a TdF
mountain stage, it wouldn't happen no matter how much you offered,
because of the weight difference, but the difference between the top
Shimano, the top Campy and the top SRAM models are so small as to be
negligible.
--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).
John Forrest Tomlinson
Why do, on occassion, riders ride equipment made by companies they are
not sponsored by, and go out of the way to use it. For example, we
know of riders riding frames made by other manufacturers than their
sponsor. I don't believe they are paying for that stuff, but they
aren't being paid to ride it either since there is no advertising
value due to the re-badging?
Ozark Bicycle
It would be interesting to see it done again, IMO.
> And there was that race from Breaking Away...
Was that the deal in "Breaking Away", I haven't seen it in close to 20
years? IIRC, the protagonist rode a Specialized (Allez?). Did everyone
ride a Specialized? (Product placement in action!)
larrylike...@yahoo.com
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > And there was that race from Breaking Away...
>
> Was that the deal in "Breaking Away", I haven't seen it in close to 20
> years? IIRC, the protagonist rode a Specialized (Allez?). Did everyone
> ride a Specialized? (Product placement in action!)
> >
> >
The protagonist in "Breaking Away" rode a full Campy Masi. The race
with the identical bikes was the Little 500, AMF Roadmasters as I
recall. I think they rode Specialized bikes in "American Flyer".
Ozark Bicycle
Ah, yes.....I confused the two, admittedly very different, films.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
Breaking Away is fiction, but its based on a real event -- the little
500 -- which has had, and possibly still has, rules such as Joseph
suggests.
* * Chas
Two pounds means nothing in an average high performance bike unless it's
in the wheels. If you are an accomplished athlete riding a TT, hill climb
or Tri-athlalon contest with equally talented riders then a lighter bike
can make a small difference.. But then, is it a competition between riders
or bikes? That's why there minimum weight restrictions on a lot of
motorsport competitions, to keep everything on a level playing field.
For the average Joe fashionista bikie, it's mainly vanity. Beyond that
there are intangibles like pride of ownership and so on. If someone wants
the hottest toy on the block that's fine but call it what it is: "mine is
bigger than yours".
Chas.
* * Chas
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:24:09 -0800, "* * Chas"
> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >Professionals rebadge bikes because they are being paid to advertise
> >equipment that they ride.
>
> So let's get this straight -- does your sentence above mean they think
> there is a difference between different equipment or not?
>
> It seems they are being paid to advertise something they'd rather not
> ride -- ie they believe there are substantive differences between
> different equipment at times.
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
NO! Someone riding 150+ miles a day is entitled to minor adjustments to
the bikes that they ride including having a custom built frame that may
have the sponsor's name on it rather than the actual builder's name.
How many top end race cars are made by Ford, Chevy and so on. But they
have ads all over them.
Chas.
* * Chas
Why do they all ride with the same color clothing and generally bikes with
the same labels on them even though they may be completely different?
Someone is paying for it. The TDF and other professional European races
are purely means for companies to advertise their products - Motorola,
USPS, Molteni. Peugeot, Gitane etc. Just like TV in the US.
Chas.
dvt
> Breaking Away is fiction, but its based on a real event -- the little
> 500 -- which has had, and possibly still has, rules such as Joseph
> suggests.
From their web site, http://iusf.bloomington.com/little5frm2.html:
"Entrants are given one-speed Schwinn bicycles which have to meet rigid
specifications in order to be used. Teams are made up of as many as four
riders. The riders treat the race much like a running relay; when one
rider is tired, s/he exchanges the bicycle with a teammate."
--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)
* * Chas
When he got started he rode fairly stock bikes. Remember, French component
makers ruled long before Campy took over.
Chas.
* * Chas
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:1167850042.7...@k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> * * Chas wrote:
<snip>
> > It's the motor, not the machine.
>
> IMO, it would be interesting to have a race series run like the old
> IROC auto race series; everyone rides the same bike, save for size,
> gearing, fit, saddle, etc.
>
No pink lycra?
Chas.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
If two pounds means nothing, would you be willing to add two pounds to
the kid you mentioned bike for nationals?
By the way -- I'm talking about racing. I was responding to a comment
about Eddy Merckx, who raced bikes, and to your comments about a kid
that raced successfully. I'm not talking about "Joe" whoever.
So would you add the two pounds just for the heck of it, if doing so
didn't cost you money? It's nothing, right?
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:9m2op218cup19qjpn...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:24:09 -0800, "* * Chas"
>> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Professionals rebadge bikes because they are being paid to advertise
>> >equipment that they ride.
>>
>> So let's get this straight -- does your sentence above mean they think
>> there is a difference between different equipment or not?
>>
>> It seems they are being paid to advertise something they'd rather not
>> ride -- ie they believe there are substantive differences between
>> different equipment at times.
>
>NO! Someone riding 150+ miles a day is entitled to minor adjustments to
>the bikes that they ride including having a custom built frame that may
>have the sponsor's name on it rather than the actual builder's name.
As an example, I saw a couple of top US riders in the 1980s riding
stock bikes from another manufacturer that were rebadged. These were
stock carbon-fiber Vituses or TVTs repainted as Raleighs. Raleigh at
that point had the capacity, I believe, to make custom bikes to deal
with issues of fit. So I don't think the re-badging was not about fit
-- it was about weight.
So why did they do it? There were not rich men, and they were not
being paid to do it.
* * Chas
>
> * * Chas wrote:
<snip>
> > being slow and old and getting dropped all of the time. ;-)
> >
> > I hadn't ridden for about 5 years. I experienced some serious sticker
> > shock the first few times I went into LBSs - $40 bucks for a clincher!
>
> Was it a Barnum Wanaracer 700 x 20?
I don't remember, my eyes were glazed over and I was in a state of shock.
I think it said something about "wanker"......
Chas.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>Why do they all ride with the same color clothing and generally bikes with
>the same labels on them even though they may be completely different?
>Someone is paying for it. The TDF and other professional European races
>are purely means for companies to advertise their products - Motorola,
>USPS, Molteni. Peugeot, Gitane etc. Just like TV in the US.
You don't get it. At the highest levels of the sport, such as in the
Tour of France you mention, the company that is paying for the bike
advertising typically has the capacity to provide enough bikes to the
team for them all to be on the same bike. And yet, on occassion, a
rider (or the team) chooses to use another bike for a rider, one that
is not provided by the sponsor, and have it re-sprayed. Is this to
save money and recycle something old?
Why do they do it?
They do it because they believe there is some small but functional
difference that is worth the cost of the re-badging and even the
pissing of of paying sponsors.
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
Ozark Bicycle
"Recommended by more wankers and wannabes than any other overpriced
tire"?
>
> Chas.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2007 08:55:14 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"> >> On 3 Jan 2007 06:07:07 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
> >> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> [about Eddy Merckx]
> >> >Well, he did opt for clampon everything, like cable guides and shifters
> >> >when others, like Bianchi, were well into using brazeons.
> >>
> >>
> >> >groups, shimano made 1 or 2.
> >>
> >> example.
> >>
> >> >Colnago when he got the HR record.
> >>
> >>
> >> If the point is that Merckx didn't care about having the best, so why
> >> should lesser racers or racers, then the point is wrong.
> >>
> >> >get you there, not some percieved advantage for a rider's shortcomings.
> >>
> >> Merckx bother with rebadged material like the Colnago you mention
> >> above. He would have just ridden a stock bike by Windsor, right?
> >
> >Point was the exotic stuff used today, and how the posseurs 'gotta have
> >it'. Equipment was there, for free to sponsored guys, but it was
> >considered to be superior if it didn't break. A NR rear der worked just
> >like a SR, but Like today, Campag wanted to sell SR. So little of the
> >stuff today makes ya a better cyclist. As said many times before, the
> >object of the ride today is the bike, whereas it should be and was,
> >'the ride'. The bicycle should disappear beneath you.
>
> racers use the best stuff they can get. Guys had to have it back in
> the 1970s just like today.
>
> And your claim that at some point in the past it "was, 'the ride'" in
> a way that is not true now is baloney. Guys at the time used what
> they thought was the best, just like now.
>
> So why do you raise the example of guy who raced top stuff in his
> time? Why not raise the example of someone who races with lower level
> stuff successfully?
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
Muddle is correct..I'm out-
Tim McNamara
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:24:09 -0800, "* * Chas"
> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >Professionals rebadge bikes because they are being paid to advertise
> >equipment that they ride.
>
> So let's get this straight -- does your sentence above mean they
> think there is a difference between different equipment or not?
>
> It seems they are being paid to advertise something they'd rather not
> ride -- ie they believe there are substantive differences between
> different equipment at times.
It used to be that pros had their frames built by the builder of their
choice and then had them painted in the team colors. This happened
until quite recently and perhaps still happens. Greg Lemond had his
frames built by Roland Della Santa. Indurain and Chiappucci reportedly
had frames built by Peggoretti (sp). French racers allegedly had frames
built by Alex Singer and Rene Herse.
A few years ago when Sean Kelly was in town, he was asked about this
during a question and answer period. He noted that his favorite frame
was the Vitus 979, and the teams that hired him just used those frames
as the team bike. They were sometimes painted in a sponsor's colors,
but the frames were unmistakable. He also noted that bike team sponsors
"build good frames now, so you don't have to go outside to have a good
one made" or words to that effect.
Tim McNamara
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> Why do, on occassion, riders ride equipment made by companies they
> are not sponsored by, and go out of the way to use it. For example,
> we know of riders riding frames made by other manufacturers than
> their sponsor. I don't believe they are paying for that stuff, but
> they aren't being paid to ride it either since there is no
> advertising value due to the re-badging?
Well, of course riders think there are differences between equipment.
They are no different from the rest of us in that regard. How accurate
their assessment might be is open to debate- do we perceive subtle
differences that are really there or just that we think are there?
Andy Hampsten used a Lightspeed frame painted in Eddy Merckx Motorola
colors- with Pino Morroni custom skewers- when he won at l'Alpe-d'Huez.
Lance Armstrong won the 1993 world RR champs in Oslo on a Lightspeed
painted as a Merckx. Both of them did that because Merckx didn't have a
Ti frame at the time.
Heck, I've seen photos of riders on teams sponsored by Campy using
Shimano parts with the name drilled out or covered over. We've heard
reports of riders using different tires than the sponsoring brand with
the name blacked out with magic marker. I mentioned the frame issue in
my previous post, that one was not only well known but expected.
* * Chas
Stop and figure out how much the food and liquids weigh that pass through
an average competitive cyclist on a daily basis. There's at least 2 lbs.
of dead weight.
As I said, excess weight in the wheels is the only area that is going to
make that much difference.
How much faster are the top riders of today riding 16 lb. bikes over the
athletes of the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s? I spelled it
out this way to relate to advances in cycling technology by decades.
Chas.
Tim McNamara
"* * Chas" <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> news:9m2op218cup19qjpn...@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:24:09 -0800, "* * Chas"
> > <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Professionals rebadge bikes because they are being paid to
> > >advertise equipment that they ride.
> >
> > So let's get this straight -- does your sentence above mean they
> > think there is a difference between different equipment or not?
> >
> > It seems they are being paid to advertise something they'd rather
> > not ride -- ie they believe there are substantive differences
> > between different equipment at times.
>
> NO! Someone riding 150+ miles a day is entitled to minor adjustments
> to the bikes that they ride including having a custom built frame
> that may have the sponsor's name on it rather than the actual
> builder's name.
>
> How many top end race cars are made by Ford, Chevy and so on. But
> they have ads all over them.
Sorry, Chas, but JT has the right of it here. This is not about "minor
adjustments" since a bike manufacturer should be able to easily
accommodate this. It's about the individual rider's belief that he can
get a better performing product elsewhere, paying out of pocket for it
BTW. He'd have no motivation to do this if he didn't believe that this
product was better than what the team provides.
Lance allegedly rode a "stock" Trek frame but you can be very sure that
"stock" was tailored very carefully to his needs. Trek worked
hand-in-glove with Postal/Discovery to make sure that the "stock" frames
were exactly what the team needed.
* * Chas
Yes, professional riders get to chose their favorite bikes and components
much of the time but they are not always the latest and greatest gadgets
that they use. For example, I've seen lots of pictures of Lance Armstrong
riding on bikes with a brake lever shifter on the right side and a
downtube shifter on the left. I bet that you will find at least one rider
in the last TDF riding a Brooks Pro saddle for at least some of the race.
Any way, this is going nowhere.... I'm out of here too.
Tim McNamara
"* * Chas" <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> Two pounds means nothing in an average high performance bike unless
> it's in the wheels.
Ummm. Have you ever raced bikes at a high level of fitness? Especially
in races with lots of climbing?
* * Chas
Along with certain brands of over priced lubricant....
Chas.
Tim McNamara
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >Didn't Merckx ride a pretty stock Peugeot at one point?
>
> I thought he rode an Italian frame rebadged as a Peugeot early in his
> pro career.
De Rosa.
> He surely rode stock frames early (or possibly throughout) his career
> as an amateur.
Probably not. I'd imagine that any rider at the top end of the European
amateur circuit would be riding on a custom frame.
carl...@comcast.net
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
[snip]
>How much faster are the top riders of today riding 16 lb. bikes over the
>athletes of the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s? I spelled it
>out this way to relate to advances in cycling technology by decades.
>
>Chas.
Dear Chas,
Average speed in the Tour de France has slowly increased.
Some of this speed increase is due to better roads, a shorter course,
massive support, scientific training, wind tunnel testing, and the
lure of big money.
But some of the speed increase is due to faster bicycles.
They're going about 10% faster than Eddy nowadays.
The data below is a couple of columns cut from this page:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/history/tdfhistory.html
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
year winner avg kmh km
2006 Floyd Landis (USA) 40.78 3,657
2005 Lance Armstrong (USA) 41.65 3,607
2004 Lance Armstrong (USA) 40.56 3,391
2003 Lance Armstrong (USA) 40.94 3,427
2002 Lance Armstrong (USA) 39.93 3,278
2001 Lance Armstrong (USA) 40.02 3,453
2000 Lance Armstrong (USA) 39.56 3,662
1999 Lance Armstrong (USA) 40.3 3,687
1998 Marco Pantani (Ita) 40.08 3,850
1997 Jan Ullrich (Ger) 39.2 3,942
1996 Bjarne Riis (Den) 39.2 3,753
1995 Miguel Indurain (Spa) 39.2 3,535
1994 Miguel Indurain (Spa) 38.4 3,972
1993 Miguel Indurain (Spa) 38.7 3,720
1992 Miguel Indurain (Spa) 39.5 3,983
1991 Miguel Indurain (Spa) 38.8 3,915
1990 Greg LeMond (USA) 38.6 3,449
1989 Greg LeMond (USA) 37.5 3,250
1988 Pedro Delgado (Spa) 39.9 3,300
1987 Stephen Roche (Ire) 36.7 4,235
1986 Greg LeMond (USA) 37.2 3,833
1985 Bernard Hinault (Fra) 36.2 4,006
1984 Laurent Fignon (Fra) 34.9 3,900
1983 Laurent Fignon (Fra) 35.7 3,750
1982 Bernard Hinault (Fra) 37.5 3,573
1981 Bernard Hinault (Fra) 37.8 3,740
1980 Joop Zoetemelk (Ned) 35.7 3,996
1979 Bernard Hinault (Fra) 39.8 4,108
1978 Bernard Hinault (Fra) 37.9 4,103
1977 Bernard Thivenet (Fra) 34.6 4.000
1976 Lucien Van Impe (Bel) 34.5 4,016
1975 Bernard Thivenet (Fra) 34.9 3,999
1974 Eddy Merckx (Bel) 35.2 4,098
1973 Luis Ocana (Spa) 33.9 4,140
1972 Eddy Merckx (Bel) 35.4 3,847
1971 Eddy Merckx (Bel) 36.9 3,689
1970 Eddy Merckx (Bel) 36.5 4,367
1969 Eddy Merckx (Bel) 35.3 4,102
1968 Jan Janssen (Ned) 34.9 4,675
1967 Roger Pingeon (Fra) 34.8 4,780
1966 Lucien Aimar (Fra) 36.6 4,329
1965 Felice Gimondi (Ita) 35.9 4,176
1964 Jacques Anquetil (Fra) 35.6 4,505
1963 Jacques Anquetil (Fra) 36.5 4,141
1962 Jacques Anquetil (Fra) 37.3 4,274
1961 Jacques Anquetil (Fra) 36.3 4,394
1960 Gastone Nencini (Ita) 37.2 4,172
1959 Federico Bahamontes (Spa) 35.2 4,363
1958 Charly Gaul (Lux) 36.9 4,319
1957 Jacques Anquetil (Fra) 34.5 4,665
1956 Roger Walkoviak (Fra) 36.5 4,528
1955 Louison Bobet (Fra) 34.4 4,495
1954 Louison Bobet (Fra) 34.6 4,855
1953 Louison Bobet (Fra) 34.6 4,479
1952 Fausto Coppi (Ita) 31.6 4,707
1951 Hugo Koblet (Swi) 31.4 4,474
1950 Ferdi Kubler (Swi) 32.8 4,776
1949 Fausto Coppi (Ita) 32.1 4,813
1948 Gino Bartali (Ita) 33.4 4,813
1947 Jean Robic (Fra) 31.4 4,648
(war)
1939 Sylvere Maes (Bel) 31.9 4,224
1938 Gino Bartali (Ita) 31.6 4,694
1937 Roger Lapebie (Fra) 31.7 4,415
1936 Sylvere Maes (Bel) 31.1 4,442
1935 Romain Maes (Bel) 30.6 4,302
1934 Antonin Magne (Fra) 29.5 4,363
1933 Georges Speicher (Fra) 26.7 4,395
1932 Andre Leducq (Fra) 29.2 4,502
1931 Antonin Magne (Fra) 28.8 5,095
1930 Andre Leducq (Fra) 28.0 4,818
1929 Maurice Dewaele (Bel) 28.3 5,286
1928 Nicolas Frantz (Lux) 27.8 5,377
1927 Nicolas Frantz (Lux) 26.8 5,348
1926 Lucien Buysse (Bel) 24.1 5,475
1925 Ottavia Bottechia (Ita) 24.8 5,430
1924 Ottavia Bottechia (Ita) 24.0 5,427
1923 Henri Pelissier (Fra) 24.4 5,386
1922 Firmin Lambot (Bel) 24.2 5,378
1921 Leon Scieur (Bel) 24.7 5,484
1920 Philippe Thijs (Bel) 24.1 5,503
1919 Firmin Lambot (Bel) 25.0 5,560
(war)
1914 Philippe Thijs (Bel) 27.0 5,414
1913 Philippe Thijs (Bel) 27.6 5,387
1912 Odile Defraye (Bel) 27.9 5,229
1911 Gustave Garrigou (Fra) 27.3 5,544
1910 Octave Lapize (Fra) 28.7 4,700
1909 Francois Faber (Lux) 28.7 4,497
1908 Lucien Petit-Breton (Fra) 28.7 4,488
1907 Lucien Petit-Breton (Fra) 28.5 4,488
1906 Rene Pottier (Fra) 24.5 4,637
1905 LouisTrousselier (Fra) 27.3 2,975
1904 Henri Cornet (Fra) 24.3 2,388
1903 Maurice Garin (Fra) 25.3 2,428
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>Stop and figure out how much the food and liquids weigh that pass through
>an average competitive cyclist on a daily basis. There's at least 2 lbs.
>of dead weight.
So are you suggesting that cyclists don't eat or drink in order to
save weight? WTF are you talking about? That won't work.
>As I said, excess weight in the wheels is the only area that is going to
>make that much difference.
>
>How much faster are the top riders of today riding 16 lb. bikes over the
>athletes of the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s?
A little faster.
> I spelled it
>out this way to relate to advances in cycling technology by decades.
So would you have the young cyclist you mentioned put two extra pounds
on his bike because it's nothing? You said it was nothing, so I'm
asking a serious and simple question. Yes or no?
Can you answer it? If you can't, I have to speculate that you don't
think the difference really is nothing, despite your comment to the
contrary.
Well?
John Forrest Tomlinson
LOL. No way. Absolutely no way.
Mark Hickey
Just what I was gonna ask... while it's not a night-and-day
difference, 1% weight gain on a very steep climb could cost you one
second per two minutes. On a 30 minute climb, that would put the
heavier bike 15 seconds behind... certainly enough to make or break a
rider's chances.
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:29:30 -0800, "* * Chas"
><verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>> I bet that you will find at least one rider
>>in the last TDF riding a Brooks Pro saddle
>> for at least some of the race.
>
>LOL. No way. Absolutely no way.
Sorry to reply to my own post, but the more I think about the comment
about a Brooks pro in the 2006 Tour of France, the more bizarre it
seems to believe that sort of thing.
But Chas, I'd be happy to take your bet. If you can find a picture of
a bike in use in that race with that saddle or any other all-leather
and metal Brooks (Pro, Swallow, whatever) or similar Ideale saddle,
I'll give you $100. If you can't find such evidence, you owe me
nothing apart from a statement here in RBT that you couldn't find any
evidence of the use of such a saddle..
Let me know if you take up this bet.
* * Chas
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-23902C....@news.iphouse.com...
Yes in the '70s and I always got dropped by the pack in the hills. I had
my first custom frame built in 1975 just for climbing, a 19 lb. beauty. I
was in my early 30s, weighed 169-175 Lbs. with < 2% body fat and rode at
least 200 miles a week 11 month a year in addition to running and
swimming. I was a good sprinter and rode a fair TT but I realized that I
was never going to be a climber no matter how light a bike I rode.
Most of the good climbers were skinny guys. I was built like a running
back with a 44 in. chest and ham sized thighs.
The top racers in our area were always switching bikes, frames or
components and very few of the changes ever amounted to any major
improvements in their performances. It was their conditioning, their
health, their mental attitude, the weather, a dog barking that made the
differences.
If someone is happy with their latest $6,000 rig then all the better to
them. I don't go around telling others what they should ride or even
expect them to appreciate what I ride. I just find some of the
justifications amusing. They were the same in the 1970s. So is the
Racesewer's snobbishness.
Several of the routes that I ride are like fashion shows with all of the
riders decked out with their latest gear (San Jose to the end of Canada
Rd. and Saucalito to San Rafael for you locals). I find it entertaining
and occasionally try to jump on someone's wheel but they are all too fast
for me anymore especially some of the women riders.
Chas. Old and in the way....
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>news:timmcn-23902C....@news.iphouse.com...
>> In article <atqdnUQ-9eONgQHY...@comcast.com>,
>> "* * Chas" <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Two pounds means nothing in an average high performance bike unless
>> > it's in the wheels.
>>
>> Ummm. Have you ever raced bikes at a high level of fitness? Especially
>> in races with lots of climbing?
>
>Yes in the '70s and I always got dropped by the pack in the hills. I had
>my first custom frame built in 1975 just for climbing, a 19 lb. beauty. I
>was in my early 30s, weighed 169-175 Lbs. with < 2% body fat and rode at
>least 200 miles a week 11 month a year in addition to running and
>swimming. I was a good sprinter and rode a fair TT but I realized that I
>was never going to be a climber no matter how light a bike I rode.
>
>Most of the good climbers were skinny guys. I was built like a running
>back with a 44 in. chest and ham sized thighs.
>
>The top racers in our area were always switching bikes, frames or
>components and very few of the changes ever amounted to any major
>improvements in their performances. It was their conditioning, their
>health, their mental attitude, the weather, a dog barking that made the
>differences.
Your last paragraphy may well be true, but would you tell the kid who
won the national title to put two pounds extra on his bike because it
doesn't matter at all? You'ver written quite a lot and this simple
quesiton seems relevant to your position. So please let me know.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> weighed 169-175 Lbs. with < 2% body fat
Do you mean you had less than two percent body fat?
Ozark Bicycle
* * Chas wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
> news:1167863303.2...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > * * Chas wrote:
> > > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> message
> > > news:1167847998.1...@k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > >
> > > > * * Chas wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > > > > I ride older steel and aluminum retro stuff. It gives me an excuse
> for
> > > > > being slow and old and getting dropped all of the time. ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > I hadn't ridden for about 5 years. I experienced some serious
> sticker
> > > > > shock the first few times I went into LBSs - $40 bucks for a
> clincher!
> > > >
> > > > Was it a Barnum Wanaracer 700 x 20?
> > >
> > > I don't remember, my eyes were glazed over and I was in a state of
> shock.
> > >
> > > I think it said something about "wanker"......
> >
> > "Recommended by more wankers and wannabes than any other overpriced
> > tire"?
>
> Along with certain brands of over priced lubricant....
Phil Wood, would you?
>
> Chas.
* * Chas
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:uonop2ha69fkl6gs7...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:41:00 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson
> <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:29:30 -0800, "* * Chas"
> ><verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I bet that you will find at least one rider
> >>in the last TDF riding a Brooks Pro saddle
> >> for at least some of the race.
> >
> >LOL. No way. Absolutely no way.
>
> Sorry to reply to my own post, but the more I think about the comment
> about a Brooks pro in the 2006 Tour of France, the more bizarre it
> seems to believe that sort of thing.
>
> But Chas, I'd be happy to take your bet. If you can find a picture of
> a bike in use in that race with that saddle or any other all-leather
> and metal Brooks (Pro, Swallow, whatever) or similar Ideale saddle,
> I'll give you $100. If you can't find such evidence, you owe me
> nothing apart from a statement here in RBT that you couldn't find any
> evidence of the use of such a saddle..
>
> Let me know if you take up this bet.
>
> --
> JT
Historically, I remember reading about riders experiencing saddle sores
would switch to good old leather saddles. That was a long time ago but it
could still happen...
Chas.
* * Chas
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:59:32 -0800, "* * Chas"
> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> > weighed 169-175 Lbs. with < 2% body fat
>
> Do you mean you had less than two percent body fat?
> --
> JT
> ****************************
YES! Tested at the University of New Mexico where a friend was doing her
PhD in Exercise Physiology and I was a frequent guinea pig.
The bad part was that I had almost no fat left on my ass and sitting on
hard chairs hurt. ;-)
Chas.
Ozark Bicycle
....and it certainly would be kept quiet. How much more does a Ti
railed Brooks weigh than, say, the (:::gasp!!, 20 year old
design!!!:::) San Marco Concor the Lance used? About 4 whole
ounces....oh, the misery!
>
> Chas.
* * Chas
<carl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ckkop2d396ikg6c23...@4ax.com...
Carl, Thanks this info. I've been discussing this with several friends and
you saved me having to look it up. Where did you find this?
Chas.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
It has not happened. If you want to make stuff up as possible to
defend your views, that's fine but it's not persuasive. Making it
sound like it has happened ("I'd bet" looking at a past event) is even
a bit deceptive. Especially if you wont' really bet.
But anything is possible I suppose....
John Forrest Tomlinson
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
There are several dozen professional photographers working on that
event, and many hundreds of amateur photographers shooting it as well.
In this newsgroup at least one person has posted photos he took at the
race for several years.
So how would it be kept quiet? It might not be publicized by the
rider or team, and access to such a bike would be tough when not being
ridden, but the event is almost 100 hours long and subject to intense
public scrutiny and photography. So it would be easy to spot such a
saddle if it was used. I've never seen such a picture and I look at
the pro sport a lot. I don't think I've even seen a Brooks pro in
several hundred local bike races among good amateurs and low-level
pros.
> How much more does a Ti
>railed Brooks weigh than, say, the (:::gasp!!, 20 year old
>design!!!:::) San Marco Concor the Lance used? About 4 whole
>ounces....oh, the misery!
This gets to the heart of it. Guys who are not associated with or
successful in the competitive sport of bike racing at a high level
mocking the practices of people who are.
PS -- Yesterday I gave you Google proof of your challenge that we
meet. So will you confirm that you'll let me know the next time you
plan to be in NYC? Or do I hear the bully/chicken clucking again....
John Forrest Tomlinson
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:fcpop2tb8s6nt50a7...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:59:32 -0800, "* * Chas"
>> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>> > weighed 169-175 Lbs. with < 2% body fat
>>
>> Do you mean you had less than two percent body fat?
>
>YES! Tested at the University of New Mexico where a friend was doing her
>PhD in Exercise Physiology and I was a frequent guinea pig.
That's quite remarkable. It's also remarkable that you don't seem to
want to answer an equally simple question -- would you in good faith
have the kid you said went on win a national championship ride with an
extra two pounds on his bike, since you say two pounds doesn't matter?
carl...@comcast.net
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
Dear Chas,
Sorry, I put the link at the top, since it was so huge:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/history/tdfhistory.html
Be cautious when comparing various Tours. The field has gotten larger,
the distance has shortened, the speeds have risen, the roads have been
paved, the riders no longer fix their own flats, the passes have
become more frequent, the drugs--
Er, more things have changed than just the speed of the Tour.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
<verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:fcpop2tb8s6nt50a7...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:59:32 -0800, "* * Chas"
>> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>> > weighed 169-175 Lbs. with < 2% body fat
>>
>> Do you mean you had less than two percent body fat?
>> --
>> JT
>> ****************************
>
>YES! Tested at the University of New Mexico where a friend was doing her
>PhD in Exercise Physiology and I was a frequent guinea pig.
>
>The bad part was that I had almost no fat left on my ass and sitting on
>hard chairs hurt. ;-)
>
>Chas.
Dear Chas,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_fat_percentage
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
* * Chas
<carl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:e3rop2dva5dmoo7b8...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> >Carl, Thanks this info. I've been discussing this with several friends
and
> >you saved me having to look it up. Where did you find this?
> >
> >Chas.
>
> Dear Chas,
>
> Sorry, I put the link at the top, since it was so huge:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/history/tdfhistory.html
>
> Be cautious when comparing various Tours. The field has gotten larger,
> the distance has shortened, the speeds have risen, the roads have been
> paved, the riders no longer fix their own flats, the passes have
> become more frequent, the drugs--
>
> Er, more things have changed than just the speed of the Tour.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
>
The old timers used drugs, lot of them.... tobacco, alcohol.... ;-)
Chas.
* * Chas
<carl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bmrop25g3hapqm5uc...@4ax.com...
Interesting link.
I started working out and training when I was 29. In 2 years I'd gotten
really "skinny" for my bone structure. I went from about 195 lbs. with a
36" waist down to 167 lbs. and a size 32" waist. That's why it hurt
sitting on hard surfaces. Also cold weather was tough to deal with.
I found that I was loosing muscle and started getting weaker so I went up
to about 185 lbs. and stayed there for quite some time.
Chas.
* * Chas
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:35:41 -0800, "* * Chas"
> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> >news:fcpop2tb8s6nt50a7...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:59:32 -0800, "* * Chas"
> >> <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > weighed 169-175 Lbs. with < 2% body fat
> >>
> >> Do you mean you had less than two percent body fat?
> >
> >YES! Tested at the University of New Mexico where a friend was doing
her
> >PhD in Exercise Physiology and I was a frequent guinea pig.
>
> That's quite remarkable. It's also remarkable that you don't seem to
> want to answer an equally simple question -- would you in good faith
> have the kid you said went on win a national championship ride with an
> extra two pounds on his bike, since you say two pounds doesn't matter?
> --
> JT
To answer your question, he started out on a 27 Lb. bike. We quickly got
him onto sewups and Junior gearing. Within a year he was on a pro bike and
took off on his own.
We used to train on clunkers with heavy wheels to build up strength.
The original theme of this thread was the $300 saddle. It's gotten totally
off track. Hasta la vista.
Chas.
Bill Sornson
Are you related to Bill Baka by any chance?
* * Chas
"Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote in message
news:459c80b7$0$5725$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
No but I heard he was traveling around the world.
BTW, the <2% fat period only lasted for a short while then every year it
was a few more pounds. ;-)
Chas.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Charles,
EPO.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
A Muzi
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>> It was an era of riding, racers, not equipment. The bike was there to
>> get you there, not some percieved advantage for a rider's shortcomings.
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Didn't Merckx ride a pretty stock Peugeot at one point?
His neo-pro year, 1967
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
A Muzi
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> It's the motor, not the machine.
>> IMO, it would be interesting to have a race series run like the old
>> IROC auto race series; everyone rides the same bike, save for size,
>> gearing, fit, saddle, etc.
joseph.sa...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ghettodrome racing with old-school track bikes! Everyone can have
> whatever bike they want, and they are still all the same.
> The Tour de France was run like that for a while, with identical bikes
> supplied by the promoter. And there was that race from Breaking Away...
so is Japanese Keirin racing
A Muzi
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Why do, on occassion, riders ride equipment made by companies they are
> not sponsored by, and go out of the way to use it. For example, we
> know of riders riding frames made by other manufacturers than their
> sponsor. I don't believe they are paying for that stuff, but they
> aren't being paid to ride it either since there is no advertising
> value due to the re-badging?
People have beliefs (in contrast to knowledge or truth).
In 1973 I removed a Campagnolo Record crank from a US Team issue
Paramount to install the rider's Stronglight 93 crank. Now, I like 93's
just fine, but really! I didn't see much difference but he believed they
were stiffer. Which is probably true - but enough to matter?
A rider who believes his gear is better, stiffer, more aero, whatever,
will perform better than if he believes the other guy has an edge -
reality notwithstanding.