Rivendell Atlantis Build Report & Review (LONG)
Michael Nelson
Atlantis frame and some of the goodies I needed to build it. The frame I
got is a 58cmm, for 700c wheels.
I had never assembled a complete bicycle before, but this was really pretty
easy. I started working on it in the afternoon, worked on it until about
9PM, then started again at 3AM. By 7AM, I was off on the first test ride!
For me, the two most difficult parts of the job would have been installing
the headset and the bottom bracket, but Rivendell is selling the frames with
those items already installed, so I didn't have to deal with that.
I "temporarily borrowed" some parts off of my other two bikes because I
couldn't afford to buy everything at once for this build:
XT rear derailleur from my Specialized hybrid
front & rear wheels & tires from that bike too, as I intend to build
a set of wheels for the Atlantis when I get my next paycheck.
Brooks Team Pro saddle, Bianchi seatpost, and Shimano 535 clipless
pedals from my Bianchi San Remo
I also had a new set of 44cm Cinelli "Campione Del Monde" bars and Cinelli
natural cork tape already here, so I used those.
I went with the following new components from Rivendell:
Nitto Technomic Deluxe stem
Sugino XD500 crankset with 46/36/24 chainrings
Sunrace chain
Dia-Compe AGC 251 brake levers
SuperMix barcon kit
Brake cables
11/32 SRAM cassette
Shimano Sora front derailleur
Avid Shorty 15C cantilever brakes
The only problems I ran into during the build were:
1) The Sunrace chain has an attached master link. I couldn't get
the damn thing to close to save my life. I talked to Grant on the
phone about it, and he explained how to do it, but I tried and tried
and couldn't get it to work. I had already cut the chain to length
on the non-master link end, so I couldn't just cut off the silly
master link and attach the chain conventionally, it would have ended
up too short. I finally gave up and ran down to the LBS and bought
an SRAM 8 speed chain with PowerLink, and that went on easily.
2) The SuperMix barcon kit comes with cables, and the housings are
already cut to length with ferrules crimped on. Unfortunately, the
rear derailleur cable was about 1" short of reaching the rear
derailleur on the Atlantis. So, I ended up cutting off about 2"
from both of the front housings (I did both so the curve of the
cables would match on both sides) and crimping on new ferrules, then
the rder cable fit just fine.
One other criticism on the cables supplied with the kit...
apparently the housings had been cut and the ferrules installed
without having first opened up the hole after the cut... the inner
cables wouldn't go through until after I stuck a 1.5mm Bondhus allen
wrench into the ends and opened up the hole.
The rest of the build went smoothly, especially considering that I had never
even ridden a bike before with barcons, let alone install and adjust them.
Fortunately I was able to look at lots of photos on the web of bikes with
barcons, and that helped me to figure out everything.
Setting up the brakes and adjusting the derailleurs took me some time to get
everything just right, but at about 7AM I had it all done, and took it for a
short ride around the block.
SQUEEEAAALLLLLLLLL!!!! I'd neglected to toe-in the Avid brakes, and they
squealed horribly whenever I engaged them. Back to the house, used a penney
as a spacer between the trailing edge of the pads and the rim to set up the
toe-in, tweaked the derailleur cable tension a little, and decided to go for
a longer ride.
Now normally, I get dressed up in Lycra, padded shorts, have a bike computer
to help me with "proper" cadence, (heck, my Bianchi even has an ErgoBrain
that shows me what gears I'm in). I also normally wear an HRM that records
my heartrate, time in zones, all that stuff, because I've been doing lots of
fitness riding.
Somehow, the Atlantis told me "let's just go for a ride. Don't worry about
all that high-tech stuff, let's just go enjoy the morning". So, my only
concession to my normal gear was to wear my SPD shoes and a helmet and
gloves. Other than that, it was Levis, regular underwear briefs with no
padding, cotton long-sleeved tee-shirt. The morning was crisp and cool and
clear, a really lovely morning.
I set off on one of my normal routes here in SF, one that takes me across
the Golden Gate bridge and then back home. It's normally about a 25 mile
ride, according to all my exotic bike computers ;-)
The first thing I noticed was how comfortable the bike is. I finally have a
bike with a frame that's as large as possible for my body size. My other
two bikes were chosen with the aid of LBS personnel, who seem to really have
a standover height fetish. They REALLY don't want to sell you a bike unless
it has 2-3 inches of standover, which for me makes me end up with a small
frame that really cramps me, because I have relatively short legs and long
torso. I think it's fear of lawsuits that causes this.
The Atlantis, at 58cm and with 700c wheels with 700x38 Specialized Nimbus EX
tires on it touches my crotch when standing over it in my cycling shoes. But
if I grab the frame and pull it up hard against my pubic bone I have about 1
1/2" of air between the bottom of the tires and the ground, which I think is
sufficient. I'm not doing mountain biking with this bike, after all.
I REALLY like the barcons and friction shifting. My other bikes have modern
indexing systems (Shimano XTR brifters on the hybrid, and Campy Chorus Ergo
brifters on the Bianchi). When you get all the indexing stuff set up
properly, it works really really well, especially with those high-end
components, but there's something very natural and organic-feeling about the
friction shifters. Trimming the fder is really easy with friction and the
rear shifting is effortless and quiet. No clicks, no thunks. Somehow it
almost feels like an automatic transmission.
I found myself not caring all that much about being in precisely the "right"
gear all the time... for instance, when riding the Bianchi, as I pull up to
a stop I shift down through the gears so that I can start in the one I want,
then as I accellerate, I go up through the gears on the 9 speed cogset,
choosing the proper gear to maintain my cadence at my target spin rate.
With the friction shifting, I am much more casual about gears, ie: as I get
to a stop, I just bump the rder barcon to get to some low gear. As I pedal
away from the stop, I don't make any effort to go through the gears in
sequence... just get moving, bump the barcon to some higher gear, and if
it's a little high, just pedal slower (and not mashing hard, just relax and
build the speed until the effort is appropriate). Am I making sense here?
It seems to me a much more relaxed way of interfacing with the drivetrain,
and for me at least, it makes the ride more enjoyable.
The low gearing was great on some of the formerly high effort hills I
encounter on this particular ride. My low gear is about 20 inches (the
lowest on my Bianchi is about 25). I still have about a 115 inch high gear
too, so I think I'm well-covered with this setup.
The frame is very compliant with its long chainstays (44cm) and slack
angles. It tracked well over rough spots and was very stable on some 35MPH
downhills. No unpleasant suprises here. With the 700x38 tires, the ride is
really cushy!
After the toe-in adjustment, the brakes work great. No squeeling, very
smooth and progressive, with LOTS of power.
Anyway, I ended up riding the bike about 35 miles yesterday. It was one of
the nicest bike rides I've ever done. I feel really relaxed on this bike,
and I think we're going to be best friends for many years to come.
I'll post some photos of the bike on PhotoPoint after I get the new wheels
and tires on it.
Michael
--
Michael Nelson San Francisco, CA
John Forrest Tomlinson
news:slrn95k1vt...@dsl-seahunt.corp.sgi.com...
> Somehow, the Atlantis told me "let's just go for a ride. Don't worry
about
> all that high-tech stuff, let's just go enjoy the morning".
<snipped detail>
> I REALLY like the barcons and friction shifting. My other bikes have
modern
> indexing systems (Shimano XTR brifters on the hybrid, and Campy Chorus
Ergo
> brifters on the Bianchi). When you get all the indexing stuff set up
> properly, it works really really well, especially with those high-end
> components, but there's something very natural and organic-feeling
about the
> friction shifters. Trimming the fder is really easy with friction and
the
> rear shifting is effortless and quiet. No clicks, no thunks. Somehow
it
> almost feels like an automatic transmission.
<snipped detail>
> I found myself not caring all that much about being in precisely the
"right"
> gear all the time... for instance, when riding the Bianchi, as I pull
up to
> a stop I shift down through the gears so that I can start in the one I
want,
> then as I accellerate, I go up through the gears on the 9 speed
cogset,
> choosing the proper gear to maintain my cadence at my target spin
rate.
<snipped detail>
> With the friction shifting, I am much more casual about gears, ie: as
I get
> to a stop, I just bump the rder barcon to get to some low gear. As I
pedal
> away from the stop, I don't make any effort to go through the gears in
> sequence... just get moving, bump the barcon to some higher gear, and
if
> it's a little high, just pedal slower (and not mashing hard, just
relax and
> build the speed until the effort is appropriate).
> It seems to me a much more relaxed way of interfacing with the
drivetrain,
> and for me at least, it makes the ride more enjoyable.
> Am I making sense here?
Sort of, since shifting is a tiny bit less precise/convenient on your
current set-up than your Bianchi so you're reluctant to shift as often.
When I got STI I was shocked how often I shifted without thinking about
it, since, my hands were on the levers and the movement was so easy.
You're making the lack of that capacity into a virtue. If that makes
you happy that's your business.
I find it bizarre though. I don't see how getting on your bike with
Ergo and shifting less often is any different. Though I guess you've
"saved" money with barcons as opposed to ergo and you get to look retro.
It sounds like you have a great bike -- great frame and durable working
parts.
It also sounds like you've bought the Rivendell marketing pitch in a big
way. Though it's "retro", it's a marketing pitch nonetheless. A fun
bike ride is a fun bike ride, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with
riding whatever you want.
But this "more retro" thing being even more enjoyable is crap. It's the
ride, not the parts. I'm not saying that everyone has got to hop on a
high-zoot bike, but if you have one and can't just ride it however
you've want but can do that with a "retro" bike, you'be got a problem.
Or was your post a parody?
JT
--
****************************************
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Blues Harpin
<jt1...@notthesewordsbellatlantic.net> wrote:
>>big snip<<
>
> I'm not saying that everyone has got to hop on a>high-zoot bike, but if you have one and can't just ride it however
>you've want but can do that with a "retro" bike, you'be got a problem.
>
>Or was your post a parody?
>
>JT
>
with a problem.
John Forrest Tomlinson
news:3a5a8cb9...@news.accucomm.net...
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 19:31:01 GMT, "John Forrest Tomlinson"
> <jt1...@notthesewordsbellatlantic.net> wrote:
> >>big snip<<
> >
> > I'm not saying that everyone has got to hop on a>high-zoot bike,
but if you have one and can't just ride it however
> >you've want but can do that with a "retro" bike, you'be got a
problem.
> >
> >Or was your post a parody?
<snip>
>And I don't think he's the one
> with a problem.
What do you mean? Do you agree that the original poster feels
he can't ride his Bianchi a certain way (not in cycling clothes,
relaxed, etc) but can do it with his Atlantis? He appeared to say that.
But you don't feel there is anything wrong with that? I find it bizarre
and don't understand it, but perhaps you do and can explain it.
Tim McNamara
Tomlinson" <jt1...@notthesewordsbellatlantic.net> wrote:
> I find it bizarre though. I don't see how getting on your bike with
> Ergo and shifting less often is any different. Though I guess you've
> "saved" money with barcons as opposed to ergo and you get to look retro.
>
> It sounds like you have a great bike -- great frame and durable working
> parts.
>
> It also sounds like you've bought the Rivendell marketing pitch in a big
> way. Though it's "retro", it's a marketing pitch nonetheless. A fun
> bike ride is a fun bike ride, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with
> riding whatever you want.
Got it in one. Did you see the pictures of Chuck Schmidt's bike in the
last Riv Reader? I wouldn't want to be caught dead on the thing, but it
probably makes Chuck perfectly happy to have a 42 *rear* cog and a
homemade derailleur built from hardware store parts that'll handle
everything from a 24 (front) by 42 (rear) to a 64 (front) by 13 (rear).
Yikes!
> But this "more retro" thing being even more enjoyable is crap. It's the
> ride, not the parts. I'm not saying that everyone has got to hop on a
> high-zoot bike, but if you have one and can't just ride it however
> you've want but can do that with a "retro" bike, you'be got a problem.
>
> Or was your post a parody?
Nah. He simply was "given permission" to ride low-tech by Grant's
marketing hype. Sometimes people need someone to say "go forth and do
things differently, it's OK." I think Grant really does encourage people
to relax, not take riding so seriously and to have more fun. And I think
that's what happened here.
bikeboy
didn't start riding, as an adult, until 5 years ago. My first adult bike
had sti. Nothing wrong with it but where's the benefit if you're not
racing? How many people actually race? Not many. Some people actually
prefer friction shifting. It has nothing to do, for me, with looking retro.
I don't give a shit what other people think or don't think about my bike.
And as for Riv's marketing pitch, guess what? All bicycle and component
manufactures have marketing pitches they hope you buy into, Riv is no
different.
Mike
Mike Jacoubowsky
me about all this retro-stuff and going out in blue jeans on a 25 mile ride
and how it doesn't matter what gear you're in etc.
This is very much like how some describe the difference between riding a
Harley and what used to be derisively known as a "UJM" (Universal Japanese
Motorcycle). We're not talking *all* Harley riders here, but there remains
a significant subset that would be very pleased with Grant's ideas of how
the world should work.
As for me...well...I'm getting known as neo-retro in a way 'cuz I haven't
updated my four-year-old OCLV to one of the new 5900 "Lance's climbing bike"
models. What can I say??? But I do expect Grant to visit my shop any day
now and try to liberate my 1974 Cinelli so someone more appreciative can
make use of it...
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Michael Nelson" <nel...@dsl-seahunt.corp.sgi.com> wrote in message
news:slrn95k1vt...@dsl-seahunt.corp.sgi.com...
Jon Isaacs
>had sti. Nothing wrong with it but where's the benefit if you're not
>racing?
Number one benefit: Riding in traffic. It is not necessary to move your hands
from the bars or momentarily look away when shifting.
Number 2 benefit: Ability to shift while standing.
Jon "Friction shifters are nice every so often" Isaacs
Jon Isaacs
>marketing hype. Sometimes people need someone to say "go forth and do
>things differently, it's OK." I think Grant really does encourage people
>to relax, not take riding so seriously and to have more fun. And I think
>that's what happened here.
This is a good point. It is sometimes nice to just be on a simple
unsophisticated bicycle. My only concern is why is it necessary to spend real
money to get such a bike? If one wants early 80's technology, why not just
get a bike from the early 80's??? They are cheap and they are available.
Jon Isaacs
Robert L. Frazier
>>My first adult bike
>>had sti. Nothing wrong with it but where's the benefit if you're not
>>racing?
>
>Number one benefit: Riding in traffic. It is not necessary to move your hands
>from the bars or momentarily look away when shifting.
Does shifting cause so much distress that you have to look away? ;)
Best wishes,
Bob
--
Robert L. Frazier email: robert....@chch.ox.ac.uk
Christ Church www: http://kant1.chch.ox.ac.uk
Oxford OX1 1DP, UK (PGP Public Key is at this site)
Tom Nakashima
Did you see the pictures of Chuck Schmidt's bike in the
last Riv Reader? I wouldn't want to be caught dead on the thing, but it
probably makes Chuck perfectly happy to have a 42 *rear* cog and a
homemade derailleur built from hardware store parts that'll handle
everything from a 24 (front) by 42 (rear) to a 64 (front) by 13 (rear).
Yikes!>
I thought it was a pretty cool bike. After reading the article, you can clearly
see he used to own a bike shop in the 70's, and has 40+years of experience
building, selling, fixing, riding, living and breathing bicycles. He's probably
in his last phase of cycling. Ol Chuck Harris did all right.
Kenwood Cyclery
>It is sometimes nice to just be on a simple
>unsophisticated bicycle. My only concern is why is it necessary to spend
>real
>money to get such a bike? If one wants early 80's technology, why not just
>get a bike from the early 80's??? They are cheap and they are available.
>
>Jon Isaacs
>
speed, aluminum / carbon / ti, johnny come 'lets make a bike like theirs'
lately, or a handcrafted and detailed utilitarian design, assembled with
componentry selected for its longevity, simpicity, and elegance?
I don't think the latest technology is 'sophisticated'. It is mostly marketing
and sales driven. Bicycle frames have gotten lighter, and gears will
seemlessly slide from repetitive ratio to repetitive ratio, but this technology
(mountan and road) is derived from racing, which is a very, very small aspect
of cycling, or the interest of most cyclists who spend 'real' money.
Have you seen what people get for this type of bike from the 80's (some are
even older = more used)? Bikes like Herse, Singer, Taylor, Gillet, etc.. They
weren't cheap then, and they aren't cheap now. And they are not readily
available either.
The Atlantis is a good investment.
John Coleman
Kenwood Cyclery
2123 W 21st St
Minneapolis, MN 55405
612-374-4042
"Your neighborhood bike shop since 1981"
Jon Isaacs
>speed, aluminum / carbon / ti, johnny come 'lets make a bike like theirs'
>lately, or a handcrafted and detailed utilitarian design, assembled with
>componentry selected for its longevity, simpicity, and elegance?
Simply put, friction shifting is not as sophisticated as index shifting. I
personally have bikes with both, and I prefer the index shifting, whether it is
downtube, STI or aerobar mounted.
>Have you seen what people get for this type of bike from the 80's (some are
>even older = more used)? Bikes like Herse, Singer, Taylor, Gillet, etc..
I am under the impression that the Atlantis frame is built in Japan and is not
a custom frame such as a Singer. Am I wrong?
Those bikes are not expernsive because of how they ride but rather because they
are collectors items.
Jon Isaacs
Gene Tolli
>
> The Atlantis is a good investment.
>
That sort of comment brings to mind Harley owners who trailer their "investments"
to wherever it is they plan to ride whilst jawing about how their "investments"
are appreciating.
I prefer to call them *bikes*.
--
Regards,
Gene Tolli
form...@mailbag.com
Jo and Joe
to replace a mountain bike but also owns a Bianchi road bike. BTW, in the
summer I ride both in cutoff sweats and t-shirts.
Joseph
Mike Jacoubowsky <Mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:Fbz66.288$J%.40169@news.flash.net...
billhp...@my-deja.com
can think of.
It seems as if what ride is more enjoyable is purely subjective and
that the originator was just expressing his pleasure in a nice new bike
and not making a value judgement as to what someone else should, or
should not, enjoy. The respondent was, however, making such a value
judgement.
I own six bikes, one of those is, coincidentially, a new Atlantis with
friction shifting. Another is a Campy Chorus Ergo custom. Others have
both index and non-indexed drivetrains. I like them all; they're just
different. It makes the training routine a lot more fun to have some
variety. So what? How about some acceptance of diverse viewpoints?
Grant Petersen does make some valid points. Whether you agree or not,
it's not just marketing hype.
Bill Howard
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Chuck Schmidt
Chuck Schmidt
Blues Harpin
says he can't ride the other bike in any particular way. He talks
about what he does like about the Atlantis, not what he doesn't like
about another bike.
It's a big world with plenty of room for enjoying different kinds of
bikes. I can ride on the road on my mtn bike, but I find my road bike
better suited to it. I can ride my road bike on trails, but I usually
feel more comfortable doing that on the mountain bike.
Different people experience things in different ways. For example,
we read the same post and I saw a guy sharing the experience of
getting a great new bike and finding a way to enjoy it. I guess you
saw something different. That's cool.
BluesHarpin
John Forrest Tomlinson
> I've reread the original post and I still can't find anything that
> says he can't ride the other bike in any particular way. He talks
> about what he does like about the Atlantis, not what he doesn't like
> about another bike.
Sorry, I was mistaken. He didn't say he couldn't ride his Bianchi in a
relaxed way, only that the Atlantis is more likely to encourage him to
do that. Which from what he described (except _perhaps_ the fatter
tires), makes no logical sense.
> It's a big world with plenty of room for enjoying different kinds of
> bikes. I can ride on the road on my mtn bike, but I find my road bike
> better suited to it. I can ride my road bike on trails, but I usually
> feel more comfortable doing that on the mountain bike.
There are real reasons a road bike is more suited to one thing and a
mountain bike to another. The actual differences between the two bikes
described are minimal or nonexistant in relation to, say, being able to
ride it without cycling shorts. I'm glad the guy enjoys his new bike,
but it would make a lot more sense and he might be a lot happier if he
equally willing to hop on the Bianchi without cycling shorts from time
to time too.
John Forrest Tomlinson
news:93g8eg$hm8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I find the tone of this disturbing. "Mean spirited" is the best word
I
> can think of.
He wrote a lot in a public forum and asked for feedback. I was frank
with my opinions but had no intention to be mean. I'm sorry if my
pointing out things that make no sense to me or the fact that this
fellow (who has, as I have said repeated, a great bike (actually two) he
enjoyes, which is great) really seems persuaded by a marketing effort
seems to be mean. It seems to true to me and that's why I said it.
> It seems as if what ride is more enjoyable is purely subjective and
> that the originator was just expressing his pleasure in a nice new
bike
> and not making a value judgement as to what someone else should, or
> should not, enjoy. The respondent was, however, making such a value
> judgement.
Really? If I said to you I like the taste of blue M&Ms but not red,
would it be mean of you to point out to me they actually taste the same
or helpful? I think it would be helpful. I said this fellow should
enjoy both his bikes a lot.
Michael Nelson
>I find the tone of this disturbing. "Mean spirited" is the best word I
>can think of.
If I had it to do over again, I would not have posted it. This is a really,
really tough room.
Eric Salathe
> Grant Petersen does make some valid points. Whether you agree or not,
> it's not just marketing hype.
That is exactly the point: Grant makes some valid points. We all agree
with that, especially JT. The marketing hype is that the philosophy
is so tied up in equiptment.
There is not much difference in buying a new bike to be just
like Grant than buying a new bike to be like just like Lance -- even
tho both Grant's and Lance's (Trek) bike are quite fine machines.
The real philosphy should be to get beyond the junk and to the
activity. Neither the retro nor the high-tech movement accomplish
that, both being overly hung up on equiptment as the means to the
end. It takes as much energy to avoid technology as to worship it.
Obviously, we need decent equiptment, but in the end -- Just Ride.
Eric Salathe <esal...@cascade.org>
Seattle WA
Frank Krygowki
>
> >My first adult bike
> >had sti. Nothing wrong with it but where's the benefit if you're not
> >racing?
>
> Number one benefit: Riding in traffic. It is not necessary to move your hands
> from the bars or momentarily look away when shifting.
Wait - am I supposed to be looking somewhere special when I shift??
Rats - I'm messing up again!
--
Frank Krygowski frkr...@cc.ysu.edu
Frank Krygowki
>
> billhp...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >I find the tone of this disturbing. "Mean spirited" is the best word I
> >can think of.
>
> If I had it to do over again, I would not have posted it. This is a really,
> really tough room.
For one, I'm glad you posted it. It was interesting.
There are a few regular posters here who get a bit mean. Some are very
knowledgable, and we've generally learned to put up with their lack of
diplomacy because they have good technical information for us. Others
are certainly no smarter than average, just a bit more rude. It's
better to just ignore them.
Glad you like your new bike.
--
Frank Krygowski frkr...@cc.ysu.edu
Eric Salathe
> billhp...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>I find the tone of this disturbing. "Mean spirited" is the best word I
>>can think of.
> If I had it to do over again, I would not have posted it. This is a really,
> really tough room.
Michael-
I think you should be aware that this is nothing personal, but an
ongoing discussion here about the retro movement. You walked smack
into it. I think the reactivity as much as JT's well-balanced post
created the mean spiritedness. If folks just followed upon your post,
it would not have gone this way.
I really enjoyed your post and it reminded me of similar experiences
following the deleviery of a new frame. You describe exactly how I use
my ergo or indexed bar-cons and I have no electronics on my
Ergo-equipt plastic-saddled bike. But, like you, I have stayed up to
all hours assembling my new toys and rushing out for the first test
ride. It's good to hear someone else's story.
Tim McNamara
> Got it in one. Did you see the pictures of Chuck Schmidt's bike in the
> last Riv Reader? I wouldn't want to be caught dead on the thing, but it
> probably makes Chuck perfectly happy to have a 42 *rear* cog and a
> homemade derailleur built from hardware store parts that'll handle
> everything from a 24 (front) by 42 (rear) to a 64 (front) by 13 (rear).
> Yikes!
Yikes for sure. Red face time. Anyone (other than me, apparently) knows
the difference between Chuck SCHMIDT the rec.bikes poster and purveyor of
vintage cycling resource material, and Chuck HARRIS the man of recycled
rear view mirrors and hardware store megarange (not TM) derailleurs.
Oops! My apologies to Chuck Schmidt! But I still wouldn't be caught
dead on Chuck Harris's bike...
Too much the snob, me.
John Forrest Tomlinson
news:93gftf$esui$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
I really enjoyed the technical aspects of the original story -- sorry
for not mentioning that earlier. Those bikes seem really nice -- if I
had more funds and space I'd get one (and put STI on it though -- a 105
group or such...).
JT
--
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>
Art Russell
>
> If I had it to do over again, I would not have posted it. This is a really,
> really tough room.
>
> Michael
Michael,
I'm likewise glad you posted as well. I found your note interesting as I've
been thinking about the relative advantages of the Atlantis, Rivendell,
Heron, Waterford and other frames for my next "all-round" bike. I've got a
"go-fast", but am interested in something I can relax on, hang fenders off
and not worry so much about catching the passing pace line. Thanks for
posting.
Art
Tim McNamara
<esal...@cascade.org> wrote:
> The real philosphy should be to get beyond the junk and to the
> activity. Neither the retro nor the high-tech movement accomplish
> that, both being overly hung up on equiptment as the means to the
> end. It takes as much energy to avoid technology as to worship it.
Wait. Now, you mean... no, you can't mean actually going outside and
RIDING MY BIKE? Instead of spouting off on the Internet for endless
hours? No, you can't really mean that. It's about the stuff, man. It's
about grams and stiffness and the cachet and the technowhiz stuff. It's
about looking like Cipollini with my bike in front of the coffee shop.
It's about having points over the next guy because *his* cassette only
has 9 cogs, or my carbon fiber frame having 30 grams less paint on it so
I can climb faster.
It can't be about riding. I can do that on any old bike.
Philip
have more weird fetishized gear than a whole crowd of triathletes.
Chaps, vests, black tees, etc, just to hang around the shop.
I think you're more likely to see someone on a "UJM" (new term to me) in
normal clothes than anyone on a Harley.
But I wear knickers and cycling shoes all the time myself, so I can just
shut up.
-P
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote in message ...
Mike Norvell
I
> personally have bikes with both, and I prefer the index shifting, whether
it is
> downtube, STI or aerobar mounted.
>
> >Have you seen what people get for this type of bike from the 80's (some
are
> >even older = more used)? Bikes like Herse, Singer, Taylor, Gillet, etc..
>
> I am under the impression that the Atlantis frame is built in Japan and is
not
> a custom frame such as a Singer. Am I wrong?
>
> Those bikes are not expernsive because of how they ride but rather because
they
> are collectors items.
>
> Jon Isaacs
Jon,
Who cares if index shifting is more "sophisticated." Lots of things are
more sophisticated but that doesn't make them superior. It's in the eye of
the beholder to which to which better.
Mike
Orin Eman
> I own six bikes, one of those is, coincidentially, a new Atlantis with
> friction shifting. Another is a Campy Chorus Ergo custom. Others have
> both index and non-indexed drivetrains. I like them all; they're just
> different. It makes the training routine a lot more fun to have some
> variety. So what? How about some acceptance of diverse viewpoints?
I agree. I have a bikes with STI, one with Ergo, one with downtube
indexed and
one with downtube friction (oh, not to forget the fixed, currently 42x17).
The ARE just different.
After using STI for a while and liking the ability to shift while climbing
out of
the saddle etc, I thought I would have problems going back to the DT
shifters.
Not at all, just different. Sure, sometimes I would try to shift with the
brake lever,
but there again, there have been times on the STI bike that I've reached
for
non-existent DT shifters.
One thing I did notice when I rode the DT friction bike a few weeks ago was
how well it was shifting... and it's running a large cage RSX derailleur
which
was put on when I gave up on the original Shimano 600, Sachs 7 speed
freewheel
and cheap SRAM chain.
So, IMO, ride whatever you like and works.
Orin.
Mark Hickey
>It's about the stuff, man. It's
>about grams and stiffness and the cachet and the technowhiz stuff. It's
>about looking like Cipollini with my bike in front of the coffee shop.
>It's about having points over the next guy because *his* cassette only
>has 9 cogs, or my carbon fiber frame having 30 grams less paint on it so
>I can climb faster.
>
>It can't be about riding. I can do that on any old bike.
Priceless! Tim just summed up the last 20 years of bicycle hype and
marketing.
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
www.habcycles.com <---- now open!
Home of the $695 ti frame
Jon Isaacs
>have more weird fetishized gear than a whole crowd of triathletes.
I won't argue that but does your Dad have a Belstaff waxed cotton jacket to go
with his Triumph??
Jon Isaacs
Jon Isaacs
>
>Who cares if index shifting is more "sophisticated." Lots of things are
>more sophisticated but that doesn't make them superior. It's in the eye of
>the beholder to which to which better.
>
>Mike
You have taken this out of context. Read the previous post to which I am
replying:
">>"Which bike is more 'sophisticated'? >>An off-the-shelf, bandwagon, 18 to
> 27 speed, aluminum / carbon / ti, johnny come 'lets make a bike like theirs'
>lately, or a handcrafted and detailed utilitarian design, assembled with
componentry selected for its longevity, simpicity, and elegance?"""
My point is not about which is better, I have both types of bicycles, but
rather simply, non-judgementally which is more sophisticated. Certainly as an
engineer if some one came and asked me which was a more sophisticated design,
STI or Friction, I would have to say STI. If some one asked me which was
BETTER, I would say that would have to depend on what you wanted to do.
Jon Isaacs
Jon Isaacs
>really tough room.
>
>Michael
>
I have been concerned about you because the topic has really drifted away from
you and your bike to the more general topics, probably reviving a recent thread
that focused on Grant Peterson and his ideas. If this has turned you away from
this group or caused you disappointment, I am sorry and hope that you will
continue to post and read this group.
Let me say this:
I looked at the choices that you made for your bicycle and I think you have
build yourself a bicycle which is very rideable, very practical and still fast.
I especially think cantilever brakes make a lot of sense if they work properly
with the levers.
While some of the components may not be the choices I would have made, I would
have many more points of contention with the majority of new bikes out there.
For example 9 speed is nice, but is is really any better than 8 speed or 7
speed? Is the narrower chain worth the cost and expense and reduced lifetime?
Personally I don't think so.
Is index shifting worth the trouble? Personally I think so, my experience has
been that the DT index shifters are indestuctible and work better than any
friction shifters when used in the friction mode. But, that is my choice and
experience.
So I am glad that you have made some personal choices to build a bicycle for
yourself. And I am glad that it turned out so nicely for you.
So I propose we change the attitude of this thread and I propose that we focus
on what our personal choice would be to build a similar bike.
The first assumption is that you already have a Titanium-Carbon
Fiber-Scandium-Boron-Cobalt bike with a 13 speed Fuller dual countershaft
transmission and air shifting. :-) Further we will assume that this bike weighs
10.5 lbs and fits perfectly. Unfortunately this is such a fine bike that it is
best to show off and ride only when other bikers who appreciate such a fine
thing can see it. Fear of theft or concern for the cost of repair makes this a
special occasion bicycle only.
So what is your choice of the best "all arounder Road Bike for everyday use and
practical use, the one that will be reliable, fun to ride, and just the sort of
the most universal road bike out there?
Michael made his choices, here are mine:
Frame: Steel, lugged, probably straight gage or some sort of "touring tubing".
Lots of braze ons for water bottles, pumps racks and fenders. Nice paint,
probably red or greeen.
Shifting: Downtube indexing, 7 speed. Shimano.
Hubs and wheels: Mavic MA40's, 36 hole shimano cassette hub set with 14-15
gage spokes. 700C x 28 tires
Crankset: Triple, probably with a 50-47-28 combination. Sugino AT is nice
here.
Cassette: 12-28 design to work the the crankset.
Brakes: Normal reach, either dual pivot RX-100's or Cantilevers. Levers would
be SIS Shimano 105 or Ultegra.
Cables: Shimano SIS/STI
Bars and Stem: Cinelli 64-44s with a Cinelli basic stem.
Seat and Seatpost: Original Flite saddle. Kalloy is fine for the seat post.
So this pretty much describes what I think of as a universal all around bicycle
built for the that will be durable, practical and fun to ride.
I invite others to make their choices.
Jon Isaacs
PS: I know that I have just described a standard bike from 1988 but that's life
Michael Nelson
an example, I used to be heavily into photography. I had a high-speed motor
driven Nikon F3 pro camera, lots of lenses, a Sinar 4x5 studio camera,
expensive precision Zeiss lenses for that, my own darkroom, the whole
shootin' match. High tech, really really good stuff.
I was looking around and bumbled into a place called Zone IV Studios in
Vermont. They sold classic wooden large format cameras and quality wooden
tripods and darkroom equipment:
Even though I had all that high-zoot stuff, the stuff that gave me the most
PLEASURE to use (resulting in, coincidentally, the best photographs) was the
classic stuff.
I have no criticsm of the Chorus/Racing T stuff on my Bianchi. It all works
as perfectly as I could imagine bicycle gear working. I just think about
shifting and it's done. Slicker'n shit through a goose. Couldn't be better.
But I get a different FEELING riding the low tech bike. It isn't better or
worse, just different. How *I* feel about it isn't up for you folks to
debate or criticize. I'm not asking anyone else to do what I did or feel
what I feel.
So gimme a break, will ya? I was excited about my new bike and wanted to
share it with some folks who I thought might understand. I was wrong.
Sorry, I won't do it again.
John Flynn
>
> So gimme a break, will ya? I was excited about my new bike and wanted to
> share it with some folks who I thought might understand. I was wrong.
> Sorry, I won't do it again.
>
experiencing the fun vicariously. It's been nine years since I bought my
Pinarello, and I still remember taking it out of the box at my LBS--a
nice, new, red frame. Somewhere in one of the Riv Readers or catalogues,
GP talked technology that didn't de-skill the user, didn't get in the
way of what the effort was all about. I think that's what you're on to
here. Anyway, ride, have fun, and let us know how you feel about the
bike six months from now.
Cheers,
John
Zoot Katz
>But I get a different FEELING riding the low tech bike. It isn't better or
>worse, just different. How *I* feel about it isn't up for you folks to
>debate or criticize. I'm not asking anyone else to do what I did or feel
>what I feel.
>
>So gimme a break, will ya? I was excited about my new bike and wanted to
>share it with some folks who I thought might understand. I was wrong.
>Sorry, I won't do it again.
>
>Michael
>
I understood your excitement as I've often set out during the quiet
hours on a bike I'd just assembled. The latest was a single speed.
None of my bikes qualify as "high zoot". One has indexed shifting. I
suppose if I ever do build a new bike incorporating all the latest
advances I'd be excited abut that one and draw the same sort of flak
from the opposite spectrum. It would probably draw even more criticism
from the "high zoot" aficionados who would denigrate my choice of
nipples or saddle. So what. That's Usenet. It has very little to do with
the very real excitement of actually riding any bike that's new to you.
Enjoy your new bike, it sounds great. Keep us posted.
zk
--
"Wise men talk because they have something to say, fools because they
have to say something."
- Plato
Suzy Jackson
> I understood your excitement as I've often set out during the quiet
> hours on a bike I'd just assembled. The latest was a single speed.
I think you just hit one of the bigger nails on the head, both about
what I love about cycling, and what I see as really sad with many newer
bikes, or more accurately with their owners perception of those bikes.
As a child, if something on my bike broke, I would invariably try to get
my dad to fix it. He would never fix it himself (except for
undoing/doing up things that I wasn't strong enough to do) but would
always help me fix it. I was the one who got to stick her fingers in
the grease pot to cover my bb bearings with grease, after he had shown
me which way to turn the wrench.
A really neat arrangement, I'm sure you'll agree. As a result, I
wouldn't dream of letting someone else (and that applies equally to shop
mechanics) touch my bike. I get a massive sense of accomplishment from
working on my own bikes. Perhaps it's one of the things that made me
choose engineering as a career.
When I was a kid though, when bikes were typically pretty simple,
everyone was expected to maintain their own bike. Everyone knew how to
adjust their gears, and how to fix a tyre etc.
I get the idea now that very few people even attempt maintenance on
their own bikes. Whenever I'm at my LBS, there's another person in
there getting their "gears adjusted" or some other simple thing that I
really think bike owners should do themselves.
People think that bikes are complex now. Indexed shifting, sealed
bottom brackets and hubs, and finicky drivetrains that have to be
adjusted just so have made it that way. I can see a lot of the basis
behind people going for the retro bits, simply so that they feel they
can again claim ownership of that aspect of cycling.
I kinda like indexing gears, mainly because I couldn't resist the
temptation when I got my first indexing lever to pull it to pieces to
see how it worked. I've got an ergo lever sitting on my desk at the
moment, awaiting my new frame, which will probably receive much the same
treatment before the frame arrives.
Some people (like my mum!) would disdain such fiddling. After all, if
it ain't broke, don't fix it. And should I stuff up and break some
miscellaneous part inside my levers, they'll be crowing "I told you
so". But the end result is that I'll have demystified them, and I think
that's worth it.
So I really reckon that what appeals about retro bicycles isn't so much
the parts themselves, because I at least really think newer parts tend
to be better quality than the stuff we used in the 70's and 80's. It's
the sense of accomplishment and knowledge that goes along with such a
bike.
The joy of first riding a bike that you've assembled yourself.
Cheers,
Suzy
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Suzy Jackson http://www.suzyj.net su...@suzyj.net
-----------------------------------------------------------
Michael Nelson
>The joy of first riding a bike that you've assembled yourself.
Especially the FIRST one ;-)
Zoot Katz
>Suzy Jackson wrote:
>
>>The joy of first riding a bike that you've assembled yourself.
>
>Especially the FIRST one ;-)
>
>Michael
Yup, but my first one _was_ "state of the art" (in 1971).
The excitement hasn't significantly declined even with this eighth one.
I'm still looking foward to the next.
--
zk
Steve Sloan
Long Low and I really love my bike. I can say it is a better bike for me
because I did not follow the Rivendell philiosophy entirely.
Perhaps friction shifting works great if you have less than seven cogs in
the back. But, when I set up another bike (a Bianchi Cyclocross bike) with
eight in the back and friction shifting it was a royal pain in the buttocks.
On that Bianchi I had an 8-speed 12-32 XTR cogset and a long cage XT
derailer on it with Suntour Superbe downtube shifters. The front was
46-36-26. It worked great except on steep climbs. When I stood up to climb
if it was not perfectly exact on the cog the chain would skip. I switched
to Ultegra 8 sp barcons and index shifting I solved the problem.
When I built up my Riv I went with an Ultegra 9sp triple crankset and
changed the rings to 50-42-28, Dura-Ace 9sp Barcons (indexed!), 11-34 9sp
cogset, long cage XT rear der and all Nitto stuff with a Nitto rack, 36
spoke MA2's and Avocet 32 slicks and XT canti brakes.
It's a great bike but it is a 9sp index shifting Rivendell. It handles
great. It is comfortable and forgiving. It holds a line magnificently. No
matter how tired/sore I am I can climb a wall on that bike and still get
home. I love it, but wouldn't recommend it for everybody. Even after over
2000 miles my Brooks B17 saddle gives me sores on really long rides. I swap
it out for a Terry Fly if I am going to be doing a lot of back to back
centuries. No matter what you say, a Rivendell is a heavy bike. It's not a
racer. It's my main bike when I want to do recreational touring rides.
It is just a damn good bike. It's timeless!
But, I am considering a Gunnar Hot Dog with 10sp Chrous group and a double
crankset for going faster, when that's what I want to do.
Grant's way of building bikes is great for some, but even he'll say the way
that works best for you is the best way...for you.
--Steve Sloan
sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu
Michael Nelson
rain, and posted them at:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=13687&a=10876727
Enjoy!
lrzi...@my-deja.com
Boy, am I envious of technologically competent folks! Would I love
to have that knack! Unfortunately, I don't. In an earlier life, I actually
was an assembly mechanic in a large manufacturing plant.
Unfortunately, I was so out of touch with my "inner mechanic" that I
routinely cross-threaded my thermos bottle!
Roy "How many thumbs am I holding up?" Zipris
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Jay Beattie
Michael Nelson wrote in message ...
>I took some pics of my new Atlantis this
afternoon during a break in the
>rain, and posted them at:
>
>
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=13687&
a=10876727
My God, It looks like a 1972 Bob Jackson! BTW,
how much was it? -- Jay Beattie.
Michael Nelson
>My God, It looks like a 1972 Bob Jackson! BTW,
>how much was it? -- Jay Beattie.
$950 for the frame & fork, with BB and headset installed.
The rest of the cost, naturally, varies with what you decide to hang on the
frame. ;-)
Jay Beattie
Kenwood Cyclery wrote in message
<20010109115313...@ng-bk1.aol.com>...
<snip>
>Which bike is more 'sophisticated'? An
off-the-shelf, bandwagon, 18 to 27
>speed, aluminum / carbon / ti, johnny come 'lets
make a bike like theirs'
>lately, or a handcrafted and detailed utilitarian
design, assembled with
>componentry selected for its longevity,
simpicity, and elegance?
Simplicity, elegance? Hey, it's an old steel frame
with some off-beat parts -- not a Coco Chanel
party dress. Why not buy a used Bridgestone and
save a bundle of cash.
>I don't think the latest technology is
'sophisticated'. It is mostly marketing
>and sales driven. Bicycle frames have gotten
lighter, and gears will
>seemlessly slide from repetitive ratio to
repetitive ratio, but this technology
>(mountan and road) is derived from racing, which
is a very, very small aspect
>of cycling, or the interest of most cyclists who
spend 'real' money.
>
>Have you seen what people get for this type of
bike from the 80's (some are
>even older = more used)? Bikes like Herse,
Singer, Taylor, Gillet, etc.. They
>weren't cheap then, and they aren't cheap now.
And they are not readily
>available either.
>
>The Atlantis is a good investment.
What is the warranty? -- Jay Beattie.
Philip
white beard kinda guy. You don't want to run in cowboy boots. Also they are
non-optimal for cycling.
I remember he used to have a poofy red down jacket he rode in, though!
How come all BMW riders have to have those posture-enhancing Heinz Gerrick
(sp?) jackets?
To relate the clothing-as-group-identity thing back to cycling, I recall a
friend of mine riding to my house and stripping off her arm warmers and
enthusing over the "fetish-y" nature of cycling gear. I thought she meant
'fetishized' in a psycho-social sense, where the STUFF becomes more
important than the activity it symbolizes.
I was wrong. She just liked it because it looked like bondage gear.
-Philip
Jon Isaacs wrote in message
<20010110093540...@ng-mg1.aol.com>...
A Muzi
This afternoon I supervised a Chorus-10 upgrade on a 1996 Guerciotti for a
customer who asked if he could "do it himself" with tutelage in my shop. We
had a great time and he'll be able to say he "did it himself". I just kept
him out of trouble.
--
Yellow Jersey, Ltd
http://www.yellowjersey.org
http://www.execpc.com/yellowje
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
EGWW
JB
Tom Nakashima
Yikes for sure. Red face time. Anyone (other than me, apparently) knows
the difference between Chuck SCHMIDT the rec.bikes poster and purveyor of
vintage cycling resource material, and Chuck HARRIS the man of recycled
rear view mirrors and hardware store megarange (not TM) derailleurs.
Oops! My apologies to Chuck Schmidt! But I still wouldn't be caught
dead on Chuck Harris's bike... >>
Yea Tim, wasn't sure how long it would take you to realize you got your Chucks
crossed. I'm sure Chuck Harris wouldn't want to be caught dead on his bike
either.
Blues Harpin
I'll be doing a similar buildup as soon as get my '92 Bridgestone RB-1
repainted. I'll be using some of the same parts you are using with
some differences. The new stuff will be Campy Racing T f&r der's, BB
and crank (30-40-50), Technomic stem, Randonneur handlebar and
supermix bar end shifters. I may get new Shimano brake levers. I'll
have to install a new headset (or have the LBS do it for me).
I'll be keeping the wheelset I already had (36 spoke MA-40s, Phil
hubs, Sachs 13-24 7sp freewheel) and my Brooks B17saddle.
The only original parts from the bike as bought when new will be the
frame/fork, Suntour BRS sidepull brakes and the seat post.
I'm having it painted blue (similar to Fender guitar color Lake Placid
Blue) with a pearl white panel on the downtube to highlight the
B-stone decal. I may go with the pearl white on the head tube. (That
cream head tube looks good on your Atlantis.
I hope it all works out as well as yours did.
Blues Harpin
On 11 Jan 2001 00:59:03 GMT, nel...@dsl-seahunt.corp.sgi.com (Michael
Zoot Katz
>Boy, am I envious of technologically competent folks! Would I love
>to have that knack! Unfortunately, I don't. In an earlier life, I actually
>was an assembly mechanic in a large manufacturing plant.
>Unfortunately, I was so out of touch with my "inner mechanic" that I
>routinely cross-threaded my thermos bottle!
>
That can be remedied if you're interested. Most of the stuff isn't very
difficult. Read or re-read Prisig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance" to get over the first big hump which is mainly mental.
Then a general repair manual, Sheldon Brown's site and a twenty dollar
garage sale beater bike will easily dispel the mystery. That way you can
"experiment" without worrying about messing up your good bike.
The confidence of knowing that nothing short of major catastrophic
failure is able to interrupt your ride is priceless.
>Roy "How many thumbs am I holding up?" Zipris
All of them?
--
zk
Michael Nelson
>I'll be doing a similar buildup as soon as get my '92 Bridgestone RB-1
>repainted. I'll be using some of the same parts you are using with
>some differences. The new stuff will be Campy Racing T f&r der's, BB
>and crank (30-40-50)
That's what I have on my Bianchi (except that I have a 26-40-50).
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=13687&a=10693764
It's certainly great stuff!
>Technomic stem, Randonneur handlebar and
>supermix bar end shifters. I may get new Shimano brake levers. I'll
>have to install a new headset (or have the LBS do it for me).
>I'll be keeping the wheelset I already had (36 spoke MA-40s, Phil
>hubs, Sachs 13-24 7sp freewheel) and my Brooks B17saddle.
>The only original parts from the bike as bought when new will be the
>frame/fork, Suntour BRS sidepull brakes and the seat post.
>I'm having it painted blue (similar to Fender guitar color Lake Placid
>Blue) with a pearl white panel on the downtube to highlight the
>B-stone decal. I may go with the pearl white on the head tube. (That
>cream head tube looks good on your Atlantis.
It sounds like it's going to be really nice. Please be sure to take some
pics and post them somewhere so we can see how it came out.
Peter Cole
"Steve Sloan" <sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu> wrote in message
news:93ittr$enni$1...@hades.csu.net...
> I can speak about my experiences as a Rivendell owner. I have a beautiful
> Long Low and I really love my bike. I can say it is a better bike for me
> because I did not follow the Rivendell philiosophy entirely.
>
> Perhaps friction shifting works great if you have less than seven cogs in
> the back. But, when I set up another bike (a Bianchi Cyclocross bike)
with
> eight in the back and friction shifting it was a royal pain in the
buttocks.
>
> On that Bianchi I had an 8-speed 12-32 XTR cogset and a long cage XT
> derailer on it with Suntour Superbe downtube shifters. The front was
> 46-36-26. It worked great except on steep climbs. When I stood up to
climb
> if it was not perfectly exact on the cog the chain would skip. I switched
> to Ultegra 8 sp barcons and index shifting I solved the problem.
I had not used friction shifters for several years when I picked up a bike
equipped with them to use as a winter beater. My impressions are the same as
yours, even with a 7 cog setup. I get enough skipping when I stand to make
me not trust it. This, I think, is the real benefit of indexed shifting.
> Even after over
> 2000 miles my Brooks B17 saddle gives me sores on really long rides. I
swap
> it out for a Terry Fly if I am going to be doing a lot of back to back
> centuries.
I had similar experiences with both the Brooks Professional and the B17. For
long distance rides (100-200 miles), I've had much better luck with more
recent saddle designs, especially the "cutout" styles.
Jay Beattie
Michael Nelson wrote in message ...
>
>>My God, It looks like a 1972 Bob Jackson! BTW,
>>how much was it? -- Jay Beattie.
>
>$950 for the frame & fork, with BB and headset
installed.
>The rest of the cost, naturally, varies with what
you decide to hang on the
>frame. ;-)
Not a bad price by today's standards, e.g. the IF
$2K TIG welded 853. -- Jay Beattie.
cyclist[at]dimensional[dot]com
Mercian's lugged frames start at just under 300 pounds. With
the favorable exchange rate, you can have a fully custom lugged
frame for just over $500 US *with* shipping from the UK.
--
cyclist [at] dimensional [dot] com
Tom Kunich
message news:d_w66.8253$bR3.1...@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net...
> Blues Harpin <no...@spam.boy> wrote in message
> news:3a5a8cb9...@news.accucomm.net...
> > On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 19:31:01 GMT, "John Forrest Tomlinson"
> > <jt1...@notthesewordsbellatlantic.net> wrote:
> > >>big snip<<
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that everyone has got to hop on a>high-zoot bike,
> but if you have one and can't just ride it however
> > >you've want but can do that with a "retro" bike, you'be got a
> problem.
> > >
> > >Or was your post a parody?
>
> <snip>
> >And I don't think he's the one
> > with a problem.
>
> What do you mean? Do you agree that the original poster feels
> he can't ride his Bianchi a certain way (not in cycling clothes,
> relaxed, etc) but can do it with his Atlantis? He appeared to say that.
> But you don't feel there is anything wrong with that? I find it bizarre
> and don't understand it, but perhaps you do and can explain it.
Let's put it this way John: When I bought that Bottecchia frame from Osiel
in Florida for $150 I expected to get a beater bike that wasn't worth a
whole lot. When it arrived I was disappointed that it was a lot bigger frame
than I expected. I built it up anyway since it WAS just a beater. I built it
up with all of the circa '92 Campi stuff I had laying around and I happened
to have a new set of Campi downtube shifters that I'd bought I don't know
how long ago or for what. I bought a set of 1 1/8" tires (28 mm) for it and
WOW! The complete bike weighs in at 27 lbs or so and the 'empty' weigh is
just a hair over 24 lbs. My lightest bike is my Vitus and it weighs in at
only 21.5 lbs empty.
Now I ride the Bottecchia almost exclusively. Why? Because the larger bike
is SO much more comfortable that I find myself smiling a whole lot.
Then I bought a NOS Atala cyclocross frame off of the net. It too is a
larger frame than you would expect for the size rating. Rigged with fat
tires and 7-speed indexed stuff, freewheels and all, it rides so well that
again I find myself smiling all the time.
These bigger, cheaper bikes are so much more fun that the expensive fancy
bikes with all of their Ergo shifting and super aero wheels are left FAR
behind.
And I'm having a lot more fun riding now than when I was worried about all
of that equipment.
Tom Kunich
"Kenwood Cyclery" <kenwo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010109115313...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
>
> >It is sometimes nice to just be on a simple
> >unsophisticated bicycle. My only concern is why is it necessary to spend
> >real
> >money to get such a bike? If one wants early 80's technology, why not
just
> >get a bike from the early 80's??? They are cheap and they are available.
> >
> >Jon Isaacs
> >
> Which bike is more 'sophisticated'? An off-the-shelf, bandwagon, 18 to 27
> speed, aluminum / carbon / ti, johnny come 'lets make a bike like theirs'
> lately, or a handcrafted and detailed utilitarian design, assembled with
> componentry selected for its longevity, simpicity, and elegance?
>
> I don't think the latest technology is 'sophisticated'. It is mostly
marketing
> and sales driven. Bicycle frames have gotten lighter, and gears will
> seemlessly slide from repetitive ratio to repetitive ratio, but this
technology
> (mountan and road) is derived from racing, which is a very, very small
aspect
> of cycling, or the interest of most cyclists who spend 'real' money.
>
> Have you seen what people get for this type of bike from the 80's (some
are
> even older = more used)? Bikes like Herse, Singer, Taylor, Gillet, etc..
They
> weren't cheap then, and they aren't cheap now. And they are not readily
> available either.
>
> The Atlantis is a good investment.
>
>
>
> John Coleman
> Kenwood Cyclery
> 2123 W 21st St
> Minneapolis, MN 55405
> 612-374-4042
> "Your neighborhood bike shop since 1981"
Tom Kunich
would turn you down if you wanted something he didn't want to make. Same
with Rivendell.
"Jon Isaacs" <joni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010109130254...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> >Which bike is more 'sophisticated'? An off-the-shelf, bandwagon, 18 to
27
> >speed, aluminum / carbon / ti, johnny come 'lets make a bike like theirs'
> >lately, or a handcrafted and detailed utilitarian design, assembled with
> >componentry selected for its longevity, simpicity, and elegance?
>
> Simply put, friction shifting is not as sophisticated as index shifting.
I
> personally have bikes with both, and I prefer the index shifting, whether
it is
> downtube, STI or aerobar mounted.
>
> >Have you seen what people get for this type of bike from the 80's (some
are
> >even older = more used)? Bikes like Herse, Singer, Taylor, Gillet, etc..
>
> I am under the impression that the Atlantis frame is built in Japan and is
not
> a custom frame such as a Singer. Am I wrong?
>
> Those bikes are not expernsive because of how they ride but rather because
they
> are collectors items.
>
> Jon Isaacs
alex wetmore
message news:slrn95rorr....@flatland.dimensional.com...
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:48:29 -0800, Jay Beattie
<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> > Michael Nelson wrote in message ...
> > >Jay Beattie wrote:
> > >
> > >>My God, It looks like a 1972 Bob Jackson! BTW,
> > >>how much was it? -- Jay Beattie.
> > >
> > >$950 for the frame & fork, with BB and headset
> > installed.
> > >The rest of the cost, naturally, varies with what
> > you decide to hang on the
> > >frame. ;-)
> >
> > Not a bad price by today's standards, e.g. the IF
> > $2K TIG welded 853. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Mercian's lugged frames start at just under 300 pounds. With
> the favorable exchange rate, you can have a fully custom lugged
> frame for just over $500 US *with* shipping from the UK.
You can also buy a Marinoni (made in Canada) for not much more.
alex
Tom Kunich
set of road wheels with it and you have the best of all worlds.
"Jo and Joe" <josep...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:6BN66.46873$9C.40...@news02.optonline.net...
> very interesting thread from one who has been considering an atlantis
frame
> to replace a mountain bike but also owns a Bianchi road bike. BTW, in the
> summer I ride both in cutoff sweats and t-shirts.
>
> Joseph
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky <Mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:Fbz66.288$J%.40169@news.flash.net...
>
>
Tom Kunich
> >My first adult bike
> >had sti. Nothing wrong with it but where's the benefit if you're not
> >racing?
>
> Number one benefit: Riding in traffic. It is not necessary to move your
hands
> from the bars or momentarily look away when shifting.
If you are riding in traffic and need to worry about keeping both hands on
the bars at all times you are riding wrong. I'd be willing to bet that I can
move through traffic as fast or faster than you Jon and not have to worry
about downtube shifting. Few people can keep up with me in the San Francisco
traffic
> Number 2 benefit: Ability to shift while standing.
The big question is: why is this a requirement? With Ergo I only rarely
shift while standing -- it will STILL break chains or teeth on the
sprockets. I shift occassionally while standing on my campi downtube indexed
shifters and it works just about as well.
I think that combined shifters are absolutely necessary while racing.
Otherwise they are nothing but a needless expense unless you don't want to
learn how to control the bike with one hand. That isn't a criticism mind
you, it's a statement.
Tom Kunich
> >I just took my dad to pick up his Triumph from the shop...those Harley
guys
> >have more weird fetishized gear than a whole crowd of triathletes.
>
> I won't argue that but does your Dad have a Belstaff waxed cotton jacket
to go
> with his Triumph??
Across the street from my local bike shop is a leather clothing store.
Harley riders spend thousands of dollars on this stuff. Harley's AIN'T
retro.
Tom Kunich
I was going to have Mark (Habanero) build me a perfect replica of my
Botecchia but then decided to just try the one he normally makes. Can Mark
be too wrong? And since I have a set of Campi Record Ergo laying around
molding....
"Jon Isaacs" <joni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010110102453...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> >If I had it to do over again, I would not have posted it. This is a
really,
> >really tough room.
> >
> >Michael
> >
>
> I have been concerned about you because the topic has really drifted away
from
> you and your bike to the more general topics, probably reviving a recent
thread
> that focused on Grant Peterson and his ideas. If this has turned you away
from
> this group or caused you disappointment, I am sorry and hope that you will
> continue to post and read this group.
>
> Let me say this:
>
> I looked at the choices that you made for your bicycle and I think you
have
> build yourself a bicycle which is very rideable, very practical and still
fast.
> I especially think cantilever brakes make a lot of sense if they work
properly
> with the levers.
>
> While some of the components may not be the choices I would have made, I
would
> have many more points of contention with the majority of new bikes out
there.
>
> For example 9 speed is nice, but is is really any better than 8 speed or 7
> speed? Is the narrower chain worth the cost and expense and reduced
lifetime?
> Personally I don't think so.
>
> Is index shifting worth the trouble? Personally I think so, my experience
has
> been that the DT index shifters are indestuctible and work better than any
> friction shifters when used in the friction mode. But, that is my choice
and
> experience.
>
> So I am glad that you have made some personal choices to build a bicycle
for
> yourself. And I am glad that it turned out so nicely for you.
>
> So I propose we change the attitude of this thread and I propose that we
focus
> on what our personal choice would be to build a similar bike.
>
> The first assumption is that you already have a Titanium-Carbon
> Fiber-Scandium-Boron-Cobalt bike with a 13 speed Fuller dual countershaft
> transmission and air shifting. :-) Further we will assume that this bike
weighs
> 10.5 lbs and fits perfectly. Unfortunately this is such a fine bike that
it is
> best to show off and ride only when other bikers who appreciate such a
fine
> thing can see it. Fear of theft or concern for the cost of repair makes
this a
> special occasion bicycle only.
>
> So what is your choice of the best "all arounder Road Bike for everyday
use and
> practical use, the one that will be reliable, fun to ride, and just the
sort of
> the most universal road bike out there?
>
> Michael made his choices, here are mine:
>
> Frame: Steel, lugged, probably straight gage or some sort of "touring
tubing".
> Lots of braze ons for water bottles, pumps racks and fenders. Nice
paint,
> probably red or greeen.
>
> Shifting: Downtube indexing, 7 speed. Shimano.
>
> Hubs and wheels: Mavic MA40's, 36 hole shimano cassette hub set with
14-15
> gage spokes. 700C x 28 tires
>
> Crankset: Triple, probably with a 50-47-28 combination. Sugino AT is
nice
> here.
>
> Cassette: 12-28 design to work the the crankset.
>
> Brakes: Normal reach, either dual pivot RX-100's or Cantilevers. Levers
would
> be SIS Shimano 105 or Ultegra.
>
> Cables: Shimano SIS/STI
>
> Bars and Stem: Cinelli 64-44s with a Cinelli basic stem.
>
> Seat and Seatpost: Original Flite saddle. Kalloy is fine for the seat
post.
>
> So this pretty much describes what I think of as a universal all around
bicycle
> built for the that will be durable, practical and fun to ride.
>
> I invite others to make their choices.
>
> Jon Isaacs
>
> PS: I know that I have just described a standard bike from 1988 but that's
life
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tom Kunich
news:3a5d4608$0$99689$272e...@news.execpc.com...
>
> This afternoon I supervised a Chorus-10 upgrade on a 1996 Guerciotti for a
> customer who asked if he could "do it himself" with tutelage in my shop.
We
> had a great time and he'll be able to say he "did it himself". I just kept
> him out of trouble.
Yeah, Al, but you're old and lazy. I hope you charged him going rates for
tutors. But that's probably less than bike mechanics....
alex wetmore
news:93kugm$jer$1...@news.cadence.com...
> "Jon Isaacs" <joni...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010109092407...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> > >My first adult bike
> > >had sti. Nothing wrong with it but where's the benefit if you're
not
> > >racing?
> >
> > Number one benefit: Riding in traffic. It is not necessary to move
your
> hands
> > from the bars or momentarily look away when shifting.
>
> If you are riding in traffic and need to worry about keeping both
hands on
> the bars at all times you are riding wrong. I'd be willing to bet that
I can
> move through traffic as fast or faster than you Jon and not have to
worry
> about downtube shifting. Few people can keep up with me in the San
Francisco
> traffic
Barend shifters also don't require you to remove your hands from the
bars when shifting...
I find that not easily being able to shift to my largest cog at stop
lights is annoying with STI. On the STI levers that I've used it
required multiple clicks (could shift 2 or 3 cogs at a time maximum).
alex
Jon Isaacs
>Harley riders spend thousands of dollars on this stuff. Harley's AIN'T
>retro.
Good to know that. :-)
Jon Isaacs
Jon Isaacs
>bars when shifting...
But you do have to move your hands on the bars which is can be a problem when
standing.
Jon Isaacs
Kenwood Cyclery
>lights is annoying with STI. On the STI levers that I've used it
>required multiple clicks (could shift 2 or 3 cogs at a time maximum).
Why not simply down-shift one ring up-front. This can be done while the rear
brake is slowing you (assuming you run right side rear as Shimano assumes).
Tom Kunich
news:slrn95r426...@dsl-seahunt.corp.sgi.com...
>
> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=13687&a=10693764
Looks nice but someone put fenders on it.
alex wetmore
The fenders are the nicest looking thing about it. The frame looks
really small, judging by the extra long stem and quill. Why isn't the
frame 3cm larger in both seat tube and top tube?
alex
Jay Beattie
Tom Kunich wrote in message
<93kugm$jer$1...@news.cadence.com>...
<snip>
>> Number 2 benefit: Ability to shift while
standing.
>
>The big question is: why is this a requirement?
With Ergo I only rarely
>shift while standing -- it will STILL break
chains or teeth on the
>sprockets. I shift occassionally while standing
on my campi downtube indexed
>shifters and it works just about as well.
Dang, Tom, let up when shifting out of the saddle.
I have STI on my commuter bike and shift out of
the saddle all the time while on my ride home
through the hills. I would hate to sit down,
reach for the down-tube shift, shift and then
stand up. And don't tell me to sit. I am more
comfortable stretching out on moderate length
hills. BTW, how does a tall guy like you reach
your down-tube shifters while standing? -- Jay
Beattie.
Michael Nelson
>The fenders are the nicest looking thing about it. The frame looks
>really small, judging by the extra long stem and quill. Why isn't the
>frame 3cm larger in both seat tube and top tube?
The Bianchi is absolutely the wrong size for me, that's why. I wasn't smart
enough to figure it out during the test ride, and the LBS wanted a bunch of
standover, so I went with their recommendation. It was a mistake. They've
offered to get me a 58cm frame (I rode a bike just like mine a couple days
ago in 58cm and it fit right), and give me credit for the 52 in the pics. It
was my fault, I should have known, but I missed it due to lack of experience
and being HOT to buy what they had in stock.
The Atlantis fits me right though (58cm). BTW, if I posted the URL for the
Bianchi, that wasn't the one I intended. This one gets you to the Atlantis:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=13687&a=10876727
Tom Kunich
news:3a5e4...@news.nwlink.com...
>
> Tom Kunich wrote in message
> <93kugm$jer$1...@news.cadence.com>...
> >"Jon Isaacs" <joni...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20010109092407...@ng-fk1.aol.com
>
> >> standing.
> >
> > The big question is: why is this a requirement?
> > will STILL break chains or teeth on the
> > sprockets. I shift occassionally while standing
> > on my campi downtube indexed
> > shifters and it works just about as well.
>
> Dang, Tom, let up when shifting out of the saddle.
> I have STI on my commuter bike and shift out of
> the saddle all the time while on my ride home
> through the hills. I would hate to sit down,
> reach for the down-tube shift, shift and then
> stand up. And don't tell me to sit. I am more
> comfortable stretching out on moderate length
> hills. BTW, how does a tall guy like you reach
> your down-tube shifters while standing?
So you stand the whole climb every climb? I find that I usually know what
gear I need to be in for an extended climb and just pop the bike into that
gear and carry on.
On small bikes reaching down to shift is a bit clumsy but on a bike of the
proper size it is easy. Remember that Jobst rides the biggest bike I've ever
seen and he uses downtube shifters. I'm surprised that he doesn't still use
5 speed freewheels and 48 tooth small rings. He probably would but you can't
buy that stuff anymore.
Jon Isaacs
>gear I need to be in for an extended climb and just pop the bike into that
>gear and carry on.
I was on a climb once that changed. It got steeper in the middle. I was also
on a climb once where I got tired. And then there was the climb where I
guessed the wrong gear.
And regardless of whether you are sitting or standing, when climbing, it is
very helpful to be able to shift without moving your hands from the bars.
This is not to say it can't be done, it is just handy and convinient. Been a
while since I saw a MTBiker with downtube shifters.
Jon Isaacs
Lee
while on the hoods. I let up just a bit as I shift, usually *up*, and off I
go.
You'd be amazed at what you can accomplish on hills. It's a lot of work, but
it can be rather rewarding too. It's a great way to really build overall
fitness and muscle strength.
Just don't do it too early in the season or your knees will suffer.
Lee
"Jon Isaacs" <joni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010112091928...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
Jon Isaacs
>while on the hoods. I let up just a bit as I shift, usually *up*, and off I
>go.
Me too. That is one reason why I think STI/Ergo is a good thing.
>You'd be amazed at what you can accomplish on hills. It's a lot of work, but
>it can be rather rewarding too. It's a great way to really build overall
>fitness and muscle strength.
I think climbing while seated in the same tall gear can provide even more
muscle strength.
>Just don't do it too early in the season or your knees will suffer.
>
>Lee
In San Diego there are no seasons.
Jon Isaacs
EGWW
Jay Beattie
> "Jay Beattie" <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
> news:3a5e4...@news.nwlink.com...
> >
> > Tom Kunich wrote in message
> > <93kugm$jer$1...@news.cadence.com>...
> > >"Jon Isaacs" <joni...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >news:20010109092407...@ng-fk1.aol.com
> >
> > >> Number 2 benefit: Ability to shift while
> > >> standing.
> > >
> > > The big question is: why is this a requirement?
> > > With Ergo I only rarelyshift while standing -- it
> > > will STILL break chains or teeth on the
> > > sprockets. I shift occassionally while standing
> > > on my campi downtube indexed
> > > shifters and it works just about as well.
> >
> > Dang, Tom, let up when shifting out of the saddle.
> > I have STI on my commuter bike and shift out of
> > the saddle all the time while on my ride home
> > through the hills. I would hate to sit down,
> > reach for the down-tube shift, shift and then
> > stand up. And don't tell me to sit. I am more
> > comfortable stretching out on moderate length
> > hills. BTW, how does a tall guy like you reach
> > your down-tube shifters while standing?
>
> So you stand the whole climb every climb?
No, but when I do stand, I like to be able to shift without sitting back
down.
>I find that I usually know what gear I need to be in for an extended climb
and just pop the bike >into that gear and carry on.
I agree, but I am not talking about Mt. Hamilton. I have about three or
four miles of climbing on my hilly route home, and I stand for about half of
it.
> On small bikes reaching down to shift is a bit clumsy but on a bike of the
> proper size it is easy. Remember that Jobst rides the biggest bike I've
ever
> seen and he uses downtube shifters. I'm surprised that he doesn't still
use
> 5 speed freewheels and 48 tooth small rings. He probably would but you
can't
> buy that stuff anymore.
Nobody said STI was a requirement -- just a legitimate convenience. Most of
us got along for decades before STI and could live with out it now. I
could, but I see no reason to. -- Jay Beattie.
Mike Jacoubowsky
machine a Ducati 900), and one of his prized possessions is a "Lucas, Prince
of Darkness" t-shirt. For those unaware, Lucas was an English company that
made electrical systems for motorcycles (probably cars too). Really BAD
electrical systems.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Jon Isaacs" <joni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010110093540...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> >I just took my dad to pick up his Triumph from the shop...those Harley
guys
> >have more weird fetishized gear than a whole crowd of triathletes.
>
> I won't argue that but does your Dad have a Belstaff waxed cotton jacket
to go
> with his Triumph??
>
> Jon Isaacs
Jon Isaacs
>machine a Ducati 900), and one of his prized possessions is a "Lucas, Prince
>of Darkness" t-shirt. For those unaware, Lucas was an English company that
>made electrical systems for motorcycles (probably cars too). Really BAD
>electrical systems.
Of course the Electrical systems on the Ducati's of that era were probably
worse. Back before they made twins, the lights were pretty feeble.
My favorite spoof on British bikes included a short description of the pencil
beam head light on the old BSA Gold Stars. It claimed the Gold Stars used
extemely narrow spot beams but that the vibration from the engine caused the
beam to broaden so that it was useable.
Jon Isaacs
Art Russell
claimed that Lucas was knighted for having been the "Lord of Darkness" -
Lucas refrigerators were claimed as being the reason the British drink warm
beer.
Cheers,
Art Russell
On 1/13/01 03:16, in article M9U76.3503$J%.396185@news.flash.net, "Mike
Michael Nelson
>Coming from the British sports car (Triumph and MG) tradition, where it was
>claimed that Lucas was knighted for having been the "Lord of Darkness" -
>Lucas refrigerators were claimed as being the reason the British drink warm
>beer.
I saw a T-shirt one time that had a large Lucas logo, and underneath was the
quote:
"A Gentleman does not go motoring about after dark. - J. Lucas"
Mike Latondresse
a MGB and Lucas deserved it in spades.
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:M9U76.3503$J%.396185@news.flash.net...
Matt O'Toole
> Art Russell wrote:
> >Coming from the British sports car (Triumph and MG) tradition, where it
> >was claimed that Lucas was knighted for having been the "Lord of
> >Darkness" - Lucas refrigerators were claimed as being the reason the
> >British drink warm beer.
>
> I saw a T-shirt one time that had a large Lucas logo, and underneath was
> the quote:
>
> "A Gentleman does not go motoring about after dark. - J. Lucas"
Now, I *like* that one.
Matt O.
Matt O'Toole
> My sales manager in Redwood City is also a motorcycle aficionado (current
> machine a Ducati 900), and one of his prized possessions is a "Lucas,
> Prince
> of Darkness" t-shirt. For those unaware, Lucas was an English company
> that
> made electrical systems for motorcycles (probably cars too). Really BAD
> electrical systems.
Cars, too. Which is why most Americans who have had the experience would
never depend on a British car as primary transportation.
I also have one of those shirts.
Of course, there's also the other dumb joke about Lucas refrigerators being
the reason for the British drinking warm beer.
Matt O.
Frank Krygowki
>
> Coming from the British sports car (Triumph and MG) tradition, where it was
> claimed that Lucas was knighted for having been the "Lord of Darkness" -
> Lucas refrigerators were claimed as being the reason the British drink warm
> beer.
Ah yes. He was the _real_ inventor of the intermittent windshield
wiper. (And intermittent headlight, and intermittent ignition
system...)
--
Frank Krygowski frkr...@cc.ysu.edu
Orin Eman
> My sales manager in Redwood City is also a motorcycle aficionado (current
> machine a Ducati 900), and one of his prized possessions is a "Lucas, Prince
> of Darkness" t-shirt. For those unaware, Lucas was an English company that
> made electrical systems for motorcycles (probably cars too). Really BAD
> electrical systems.
The following is a quote from
http://www.audifans.com/archives/1999/03/msg00628.html
"It still annoys me, on behalf of the Lucas engineers, that Lucas ever
got the 'Prince of Darkness' reputation. They were damn good guys,
but they oversold their sales force on their over-engineering. As a
result, massive numbers of British (and other) cars were built with
under-specified Lucas equipment - which, of course, proceeded to fail.
Knowing the old (1960s) product range, every time I look in the engine
bay of a British 1960s classic I think - if _only_ they'd fitted the
proper (i.e., two steps up the range) alternator."
Overselling by Lucas or poor QA by the car manufacturer?
Orin.
Tom Kunich
news:M9U76.3503$J%.396185@news.flash.net...
> machine a Ducati 900), and one of his prized possessions is a "Lucas,
Prince
> of Darkness" t-shirt. For those unaware, Lucas was an English company
that
> made electrical systems for motorcycles (probably cars too). Really BAD
> electrical systems.
So bad that the entire reputation of BSA motorcycles were sullied by what
was really a failure in the ignition system at high RPM. We had the fastest
BSA's in the AMA pro racing because we used several different methods of
changing over the ignition to something that really worked.
da...@damonrinard.com
windshield wiper.
Along with the intermittent alternator, intermittent headlight, intermittent
interior light, ...
Mike Latondresse <mik...@Home.com> writes:
>For sure cars too. I had one of those t-shirts way back in 1965 when I owned
>a MGB and Lucas deserved it in spades.
>
>"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote...
>> My sales manager in Redwood City is also a motorcycle aficionado (current
>> machine a Ducati 900), and one of his prized possessions is a "Lucas,
>Prince
>> of Darkness" t-shirt. For those unaware, Lucas was an English company
>that
>> made electrical systems for motorcycles (probably cars too). Really BAD
>> electrical systems.
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Mike Latondresse
tad to do with it, specially after the Honda 750 came out. UJMs rule.
"Tom Kunich" <tku...@cadence.com> wrote in message
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