32T sprocket with an old Shimano 600 rear derailleur?

[Joerg]

Folks,

Posted it in a German NG but no responses, probably they are all too
young to remember Shimano 600 :-)

I needed to get away from the old corn cob cassette because of the hills
here. One of the guys gave me a hint to hack a HG50 7-speed 14-32T
cassette, scavenge the center five sprockets and grind off some of the
extra wide HG spline to make it fit the UG freehub. Works beautifully,
now I have 28T max in the back.

But as it always is ... one wants more. There are still a couple of
hills that are really tough even with 28T. From looking at it the 600
rear derailleur should be able to shift onto 32T if I back it off some
more. That leaves the issue of having to sacrifice one of the other new
sprockets because I can only have six unless I'd throw away the brand
new Wippermann chain I just put on. 7-speed with a friction shifter
wouldn't be fun anyhow. Now I have: Old 13T (screwed on, must keep it
because that holds a UG set together), then 16T, 18T, 21T, 24T und 28T.
Questions:

a. Is a 32T sprocket ok with an old Shimano 600 rear derailleur or could
I wear something out in it fast? I would only use the 32T during the
occasional steep climbs. Maybe 15-20mins out of a 3h ride.

b. Leaving out one sprocket will cause a larger jump at some place. Is a
jump 16T-21T or 18T-24T ok for the derailer? Somewhere I'd have to
accept a 1.3 step instead of the usual 1.15. I don't mind because I
overshift all the time anyhow, never really needed the 12 speeds the
bike has. In other words I could do this:

13-16-21-24-28-32T (favored)
13-16-18-24-28-32T

Because of a 130mm BCD up front I can't get much below the 42T of the
small chain ring there so the only way to increase the cadence is at the
cassette.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[AMuzi]

Shimano's recommendation for the short cage RD6207, RD6208
etc is 27 teeth. With a 32, the top roller will interfere
with the sprocket and shift poorly if at all. You can make
that less severe by pulling the body back as you noted using
the B tension screw but it will still impede.

But try it. You can always change to a wide range changer
for about $15 [1]). Remember to add extra links back in to
your new chain; suggested standard is to wrap the big-big
and add 2 or 3 rivets[2].
http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG

This will make the chain sag in small-small with your short
cage changer. A short chain is at high risk of snapping your
changer into pieces on the downshift.

[1] With a modern long cage changer, you may need a longer
low gear limit screw for six speed. It's a standard m4x0.7
screw, nothing special.
[2] Six speed chain is easily riveted with a standard chain
tool.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

Yes, it'll be a close call. But with backing it off plus mounting the
rear wheel as much towards the front as reasonably possible it might
just do it. I'd only have to shift onto the 32T sprocket once or twice
per ride. Even if I'd have to get off the bike to help it up there by
hand that would still be a huge benefit. Some hills out here are nasty.

Of course, here's hoping that the old UG freehub can withstand the
increase torque. I now cycle up hills that I used to have to walk.

> But try it. You can always change to a wide range changer for about $15
> [1]). Remember to add extra links back in to your new chain; suggested
> standard is to wrap the big-big and add 2 or 3 rivets[2].
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>

Changing the derailleur on that bike would be like putting mag wheels on
a Model A :-)

I added two links already and that's the max because the lower roller
moves way up on smaller sprockets. I'll just make sure I'll never shift
into large-large.

> This will make the chain sag in small-small with your short cage
> changer. A short chain is at high risk of snapping your changer into
> pieces on the downshift.
>

On the Shimano 600 there is a kind of "hook" that can snag stuff if the
lower roller moves too high. Had that happen with four extra links and I
had to take two of them out. The chain didn't sag but the derailleur
almost pulled it horizontally onto itself. Like in the last picture here:

http://sheldonbrown.com/deakins/lowgears.html

> [1] With a modern long cage changer, you may need a longer low gear
> limit screw for six speed. It's a standard m4x0.7 screw, nothing special.
> [2] Six speed chain is easily riveted with a standard chain tool.
>

I used hammer and anvil.

What do you think about the 16T-21T or 18T-24T step? Do derailleurs
suffer when shifting a factor of about 1.3 up or down within one step? I
never shift under load even though this new HG stuff would theoretically
allow it.

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

:Changing the derailleur on that bike would be like putting mag wheels on

:a Model A :-)

:I added two links already and that's the max because the lower roller
:moves way up on smaller sprockets. I'll just make sure I'll never shift
:into large-large.

Spend the money on a new derailleur. It's way cheaper than broken
wheel or frame. you will eventually grab the wrong lever, and jam it
into big/big, and break something.


:What do you think about the 16T-21T or 18T-24T step? Do derailleurs

:suffer when shifting a factor of about 1.3 up or down within one step? I
:never shift under load even though this new HG stuff would theoretically
:allow it.

Shimano sell cassettes with steps like that, so clearly, they think
they work.

--
sig 19

[Joerg]

On 2015-05-19 8:41 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
> :Changing the derailleur on that bike would be like putting mag wheels on
> :a Model A :-)
>
> :I added two links already and that's the max because the lower roller
> :moves way up on smaller sprockets. I'll just make sure I'll never shift
> :into large-large.
>
> Spend the money on a new derailleur. It's way cheaper than broken
> wheel or frame. you will eventually grab the wrong lever, and jam it
> into big/big, and break something.
>

I'd like to keep this classic bike as original as I can. Except for
lighting, of course, but I even left the old 80's dynamo lights on.
Also, to my surprise shifting large-large with the new 28T in there did
not stretch the derailleur anywhere close to the breaking point when I
had the old chain on there with two links less.

Should I cave in and buy a new derailleur I'd also get the cassette with
the biggest honking large sprocket there is, plus a new rear wheel with
HG freehub. Because there will come a day when the rim is through anyhow.

I always wondered why there was never a lever interlock that prevents
people from shifting large-large and small-small. I am regularly seeing
road bikers who ride with extreme chain skew for miles and that can't be
good. Even some mountain bikers do it and that makes an awful noise uphill.

>
> :What do you think about the 16T-21T or 18T-24T step? Do derailleurs
> :suffer when shifting a factor of about 1.3 up or down within one step? I
> :never shift under load even though this new HG stuff would theoretically
> :allow it.
>
> Shimano sell cassettes with steps like that, so clearly, they think
> they work.
>

Thanks, I didn't know that. I only saw cassettes with a single bailout
gear but never for the old 600 road system. So ... I am going to try.
Loosening the small cog will be a bear again because I've muscled up a
few mild inclines at speed in highest gear.

[avag...@gmail.com]

J...have you considered BASE JUMPING ?

[Joerg]

On 2015-05-19 10:30 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> J...have you considered BASE JUMPING ?
>

No, that goes too far for my taste. But I did parachuting out of
aircraft. Great fun. I just don't know what that's got to do with
sprockets and derailleurs.

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

:I always wondered why there was never a lever interlock that prevents

:people from shifting large-large and small-small. I am regularly seeing
:road bikers who ride with extreme chain skew for miles and that can't be
:good. Even some mountain bikers do it and that makes an awful noise uphill.

How do you propose the left shifter be informed what the right is
doing?

--
sig 28

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 1:30:50 PM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> J...have you considered BASE JUMPING ?

.....NYT wrte one I'll fetch it...when tumbling over BASE 1ST OFF, I was uh incredulous n thought maybe this was a fringe joke. But claimed figures of successful jumps for individuals goes into 4 figures.

Here's man, local noise sez he was retarded, who killed his dog FCS


http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-dean-potter-risk-motivation-20150518-story.html?track=lat-pick

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://goo.gl/dcFlzX

[James]

I guess a longer hanger might solve that part of the problem.

--
JS

[Sir Ridesalot]

Shimano also made a long cage version of the old 600 rear derailler.

Sometimes you can find a different Shimano long cage rear derailler that uses the same type of cage and swap it with the short cage on the derailler you want to use. I've done that on deraillers that someone wanted to keep the main body of oroginal/

Cheers

[James]

An ECU? Most people are born with one between their ears. Some use
what they're born with. Others, not so much.

--
JS

[Joerg]

It would be a simple mechanical interlock. For example with my friction
shifters: Left lever full towards -> Adjust screw lets right lever not
go all the way towards front. Same for backwards.

Experienced riders do not need this, of course. However, it is always
stunning to see how many are riding with an unhealthy chain skew.

[Joerg]

That is a good idea. I am not super-crazy with keeping the bike 100%
original, just didn't want to switch whole parts out if I can avoid it.

To my surprise the 28T didn't cause undue derailleur stretch even
without lengthening the chain. Now I have two links more so I think 32T
might work as is. If the derailleur can get it up there, that is.

To my surprise there are a lot of "old road bike" enthusiasts out here.
One stopped me to be able to have a good look at the bike. Not sure
what's so special about Reynolds 531 these days but one guy bought an
old frame for several hundred Dollars and then had a vintage specialty
shop search for genuine original parts. I'd have bought a new carbon
frame deal instead.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 9:18:50 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> a. Is a 32T sprocket ok with an old Shimano 600 rear derailleur

It will work perfectly. Brother used a very old Shimano 600 short cage rear derailleur on a 9 speed 11-32 cassette this past weekend. With somewhat modern STI shifters. 1990s Trek OCLV frame.

> Because of a 130mm BCD up front I can't get much below the 42T of the
> small chain ring

130mm bolt circle diameter cranksets can accept 38 tooth inner chainrings. TA and maybe Sugino and Stronglight make them. Of course a new 38 tooth TA chainring will cost more than your bicycle is worth.

[Joerg]

On 2015-05-20 10:22 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 9:18:50 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> a. Is a 32T sprocket ok with an old Shimano 600 rear derailleur
>
> It will work perfectly. Brother used a very old Shimano 600 short
> cage rear derailleur on a 9 speed 11-32 cassette this past weekend.
> With somewhat modern STI shifters. 1990s Trek OCLV frame.
>

Thanks! Very encouraging.

>
>> Because of a 130mm BCD up front I can't get much below the 42T of
>> the small chain ring
>
> 130mm bolt circle diameter cranksets can accept 38 tooth inner
> chainrings. TA and maybe Sugino and Stronglight make them. Of
> course a new 38 tooth TA chainring will cost more than your bicycle
> is worth.
>

Yeah, I don't want to sink too much money into the old bike. 38T up
front would only net me a 10% torque improvement while 32T in the back
results in 15%. At no cost since I already have the 32T sprocket left
over from the HG50 cassette hack.

[avag...@gmail.com]

reading the long/short cage genre....

Q,.does a 62 tooth cog fit the short cage ?

A..sure my brother in law Ludovico uses a 62 in a short cage ...

we wonder why Shimano produced long and short cages ?

...
as for money and BASE jumping...


NEVER SPEND MONEY ON AN OLD BIKE ALWAYS SPEND MONEY ON A NEW BIKE

there's a flood piece I'll go find it wait one...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/24/travel/drought-tests-california-tourism.html?_r=0

found below LINEAR TESLA

[avag...@gmail.com]

NNNNNNNNNNNNNN

know LS right ?

http://www.loosescrews.com/Derailleur/Rear-Cage-Plates/Shimano/Deore-XT-RD-M735-and-Deore-RD-M650-Inner-Cage-Plate-SH-5560900.html

in the long and short cage biz....is a long cage body swinging in a different geometry than a short cage ? I have LC's only.

[avag...@gmail.com]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaacccccccccccccchhhh

elephant on left is really cooool sucking up chill Asti Spumante

[Ralph Barone]

Di2...

[John B.]

On Wed, 20 May 2015 06:26:06 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On the other hand, I remember Frank posting a reference to some tests
that a chain manufacturer had made. Frank, I think, was discussing
power loss in chain transmissions but I read the test and down at the
bottom of the page there was a note that, "chain misalignment did not
seem to be a significant factor". So is a misaligned chain
detrimental? If so is there a critical misalignment angle? Is the
significant misalignment angle different on different width chains?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

It may well be that classic roller chain, which didn't
deflect much, was a different situation. Sturmey for example
made great efforts to allow and specify fine increments to
sprocket spacing for perfect chainline.

After the breakthrough Sedisport with interrupted
sideplates, chain was much more flexible side to side,
lighter weight, cheaper to make and as a direct result
faster wearing too. This is the near-universal derailleur
chain design now.

[Joerg]

On my bikes I am never concerned about power loss but more about
component lifetimes and failures. A chain that runs grossly skewed under
heavy load for a long time won't remain too healthy for long.

[AMuzi]

Yes, that's our intuitive logical conclusion, but the data
doesn't support it as a significant factor in chain wear.

I don't know why but here's an hypothesis: The chain's inner
lip is interrupted leaving a smooth radius rather than the
abrupt corner of a roller chain sleeve.

[Joerg]

So far every article I've seen says it's bad for the chain and the chain
rings. Even Sheldon Brown said so. I also found that the chain noise
changes, can be heard when riding in a narrow tunnel or next to a tall
and even wall.

http://www.bicyclechainrings.com/crosschaining.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears.html

Do you have a link to data that supports that cross-chaining does not
cause additional wear?

[AMuzi]

Can't find it, maybe Frank can assist.
It's referenced here:
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-004/000.html

but the link is no longer valid.

[Joerg]

Can't see anything in there referring to cross or skew. I've seen lots
of wear comparisons between chain types and brands but never anything
for skew.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Do you have a link to data that supports that cross-chaining does not
> cause additional wear?

..............

A SHORT cage deray shifts faster ? more responsive click click ?

the wear question try this...are lab tests including grit eg silica as here where...a repeet...4-5 GRAMS reduces power at 1-2 cogs.

place lubed grit on your lip n see what ?

...................

if links are correct then big to big is difficult to impossible to NOT FEEL ?

or the probability thereof ?

I dunno, I get insensate from lack of you name it.

[Joerg]

On 2015-05-21 9:55 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Do you have a link to data that supports that cross-chaining does
> not
>> cause additional wear?
>
> ..............
>
> A SHORT cage deray shifts faster ? more responsive click click ?
>
> the wear question try this...are lab tests including grit eg silica
> as here where...a repeet...4-5 GRAMS reduces power at 1-2 cogs.
>
> place lubed grit on your lip n see what ?
>

???

> ...................
>
> if links are correct then big to big is difficult to impossible to
> NOT FEEL ?
>
> or the probability thereof ?
>

It's probably novice riders. I see it all the time on bike paths and
trails, even with people who seem to have good endurance and whom I this
don't pass at least for a while. Or can't pass on singletrack. Many
shift only in back and then climb a whole long hill in large-large.
Gives me the goose bumps just to see that.

[...]

[John B.]

I don't know and if anyone had any definitive information I would hope
that they would post it here as it is of interest to at least some of
us.

But I suspect that what may well have been very important in the "10
speed English racing bike" days may well not be as important today. At
least I've tried a very limited test by cranking the bike, with 9
speed cassette, when it is on a bike stand and I can't detect any
noticeable difference between big chain ring and big cog and little
chain ring and little cog that I would attribute to chain angle. But I
freely admit that it is hardly an exhaustive test, and I do check
chain alignment when I build a bicycle :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 21 May 2015 07:52:10 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

I hate to say it but Sheldon wasn't always 100%, perfectly,
completely, correct and some of the things on his site are articles by
others which, to some extent, explained, enlarged on, or correct,
Sheldon's original statements.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I did a limited search on "roller chain" manufacturers sites and they
all say that misalignment MAY cause side plate or sprocket tooth side
wear.

But, they don't seem to go into any detail on possible limits of
misalignment nor do they describe a "flexible" chain like the modern
multi speed bicycles.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 May 2015 09:16:55 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

A FOLLOW-UP.

I did find a "maintenance manual" on the Diamond Chain site that is
specific. They state that for single strand drives "the shafts are
parallel and in the same plane within .050 in/ft (4.2 mm/m) or 1/4°".
They seem to emphasize both shaft parallelism and angular alignment.

They also show a formula:

Tolerance = .00133 C (in/ft), or .111 C (mm/m)
--------- ---------
P n P n

Where: C = center distance, in inches or mm.
P = chain pitch, in inches or mm.
n = number of chain strands.

Max. Offset =0.045 P in inches or mm where P = chain pitch in inches
or mm. This formula applies to both single and multiple strand chains.

However, I am not sure whether Diamond makes the flexible bicycle
chains that are now used, but they are quite explicit about single and
multi strand (as they refer to them) chains so if bike chains are a
significant part of their market they likely would do so. Or perhaps a
separate manual for those chains only.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

My "test" was under load. I went through a long narrow canal tunnel
where only bicycles, horses, pedestrians and government maintenance
vehicles are allowed. Other than high speed road bike riders there is
hardly anyone around so I had the tunnel to myself the whole time. The
tunnel is only for the path, the canal has its own tunnel next door.

There was a noticeable difference in drive train noise when the chain
was skewed. I am not a mechanical engineer but IME more noise often
means more wear.

[avag...@gmail.com]

??? WHEREAS sometime Big Big is noisy or noisier, energy lost as heat...the chain is taut poss eliminating wear I other not taut gearlines ....

the chain lip AMuzi writes of referring to chain testing may hold grit....heat loss and increased wear....asking are testers using grit on chains or not ? when claiming Bib Big doesn't wear...

if taut, then grit would....

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 May 2015 07:12:16 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Yes, but was the "noise" caused by the front derailer rubbing on the
chain. I've often noticed that, particularly with a non indexed
shifter, one finds that when the derailer cage is moved to shift the
front sprocket it may well be too far to the right or left to clear
the chain when on the smallest or largest cassette sprocket. In fact
Shimano has an additional "click" in their L.H. road bike shifters to
"trim" the front cage to avoid rubbing the chain.

With the bike on a stand cranking the pedal and shifting to check the
shifter adjustment doesn't seem to cause undue noise in any
combination of sprockets. However, under those conditions there is no
load on the chain which may well make a difference.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Nor is there any frame flex with the bike on the stand.

Cheers

[John B.]

True but if the frame flexes then any preset chain line is no longer
accurate and one of the things that the Diamond Maintenance Manual did
seem to pay a lot of attention to was any angular misalignment of
sprockets, such as the B.B flexing.

My own guess is that, like a lot of things on a bicycle, the chain
line is actually only an approximation.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

My eyesight is still good enough to see that :-)

No, it wasn't caused by front derailleur scraping. Mine is deliberately
set quite loose because I put a lot of torque on cranks and it needs to
accommodate frame flexing.

>
> With the bike on a stand cranking the pedal and shifting to check the
> shifter adjustment doesn't seem to cause undue noise in any
> combination of sprockets. However, under those conditions there is no
> load on the chain which may well make a difference.

It only happens under load. Serious load, not just cruising through the
neighborhood.

[Joerg]

On 2015-05-19 7:18 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Posted it in a German NG but no responses, probably they are all too
> young to remember Shimano 600 :-)
>
> I needed to get away from the old corn cob cassette because of the hills
> here. One of the guys gave me a hint to hack a HG50 7-speed 14-32T
> cassette, scavenge the center five sprockets and grind off some of the
> extra wide HG spline to make it fit the UG freehub. Works beautifully,
> now I have 28T max in the back.
>
> But as it always is ... one wants more. There are still a couple of
> hills that are really tough even with 28T. From looking at it the 600
> rear derailleur should be able to shift onto 32T if I back it off some
> more. That leaves the issue of having to sacrifice one of the other new
> sprockets because I can only have six unless I'd throw away the brand
> new Wippermann chain I just put on. 7-speed with a friction shifter
> wouldn't be fun anyhow. Now I have: Old 13T (screwed on, must keep it
> because that holds a UG set together), then 16T, 18T, 21T, 24T und 28T.
> Questions:
>
> a. Is a 32T sprocket ok with an old Shimano 600 rear derailleur or could
> I wear something out in it fast? I would only use the 32T during the
> occasional steep climbs. Maybe 15-20mins out of a 3h ride.
>
> b. Leaving out one sprocket will cause a larger jump at some place. Is a
> jump 16T-21T or 18T-24T ok for the derailer? Somewhere I'd have to
> accept a 1.3 step instead of the usual 1.15. I don't mind because I
> overshift all the time anyhow, never really needed the 12 speeds the
> bike has. In other words I could do this:
>
> 13-16-21-24-28-32T (favored)
> 13-16-18-24-28-32T

>
> Because of a 130mm BCD up front I can't get much below the 42T of the

> small chain ring there so the only way to increase the cadence is at the
> cassette.
>

Feedback, in case someone else has this situation:

My Shimano 600 rear derailleur took the 32T. I have the chain as long as
it can be for it to barely interfere with the derailleur hanger on
small-small. On large-large the derailleur is stretched to almost the
limit so best to avoid those extremes. Such chain skew wouldn't be good
anyhow.

What I now have is 13-16-18-21-28-32T. That provides me with two
mountain gears in back. Accelerating on the 32T from a stop light is
impressive. Now I can make the bike rear up :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/24/2015 9:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> What I now have is 13-16-18-21-28-32T. That provides me with two
> mountain gears in back. Accelerating on the 32T from a stop light is
> impressive. Now I can make the bike rear up :-)

Seems to me that if your objective is to get across an intersection
quickly, you don't want to be in the 32. Unless, perhaps, you're a guy
who can spin at 250 rpm.

When I taught cycling classes, one of the parking lot exercises was a
series of drag races. The class lined up, and each student accelerated
from a standing stop over a distance of about 20 or 30 yards. The point
was to learn which gear got you through an intersection most quickly.

For most people, it turned out to be a mid-range gear, something like 60
gear inches or 4.8 meters development. Too high of a gear would lead to
straining at the pedals and moving slowly. Too low of a gear would lead
to spinning out far too soon.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2015-05-24 7:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/24/2015 9:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> What I now have is 13-16-18-21-28-32T. That provides me with two
>> mountain gears in back. Accelerating on the 32T from a stop light is
>> impressive. Now I can make the bike rear up :-)
>
> Seems to me that if your objective is to get across an intersection
> quickly, you don't want to be in the 32. Unless, perhaps, you're a guy
> who can spin at 250 rpm.
>

I know but it does impress the ladies when the front wheel lifts off :-)

Well, I am too old for that ...

> When I taught cycling classes, one of the parking lot exercises was a
> series of drag races. The class lined up, and each student accelerated
> from a standing stop over a distance of about 20 or 30 yards. The point
> was to learn which gear got you through an intersection most quickly.
>
> For most people, it turned out to be a mid-range gear, something like 60
> gear inches or 4.8 meters development. Too high of a gear would lead to
> straining at the pedals and moving slowly. Too low of a gear would lead
> to spinning out far too soon.
>

Unless you are able to shift really fast. Kind of tough on my road bike
with its friction shifters but very easy on the MTB. Which is why I can
zip across an intersection fastest from a standstill on my MTB.