WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Andre Jute

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Apr 24, 2009, 7:45:21 PM4/24/09

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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricelist.php?newstype=models&Model=655
reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.

No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.

Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.

So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.

GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!

Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.

Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/default.php?cPath=28&osCsid=68fd3b50f0db60154d0dc9b6796b2ac5
and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.

WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET

Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.

A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.

You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.

IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?

There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.

The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)

A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.

What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.

Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.

Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.

AMuzi

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Apr 24, 2009, 8:40:46 PM4/24/09

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Godiva? Way too complex.
Nice clean Waterford open track frame:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.

YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andre Jute

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Apr 24, 2009, 9:11:42 PM4/24/09

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> >http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/default.php?cPath=28&osCsid=68fd3b5...

Let's forget the Godiva. There's nothing special about it to justify
even the base price, never mind tarting it up. Especially now that we
do have something special to look at:

> Nice clean Waterford open track frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

Okay. Very nice. A colour I love too. And excellent photographs to
perve over.

What does "open" mean in your sentence above.

> Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
> seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.

Chuckle. I get it. But the article above is about getting it from a
solder-sniffer with prices anchored in reality. I'm not even asking,
because I can't. Though I imagine that's someone's well-used and well-
loved Waterford and very much not for sale.

> YMMV.

I wish you'd explain in full to some of the younger hotheads what the
ramifications of that phrase are.

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I had a ride on an old Bob Jackson the other day, a guy I met on the
road who was about my size. He bought it on the net for his collection
and was just riding to find out what is wrong with it. Not my sort of
bike but there was a sense of occasion about riding even an abused
example. Wavy Hetchins (?spelling) chainstays. Whole thing still solid
and stiff, which surprised me somewhat as the tubes all seemed very
slender indeed.

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

Tom Sherman

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Apr 24, 2009, 9:24:55 PM4/24/09

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Andrew Muzi wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>> WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
>> An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
>> by Andre Jute
>>
>> Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
>> other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
>> suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
>> http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
>> I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
>> eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
>> roots.

>> [...]

> Godiva? Way too complex.
> Nice clean Waterford open track frame:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html
>
> Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a seductively
> pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.
>
> YMMV.
>

What am I missing here? How is the Godiva more complex, other than cable
guide braze-ons?

For value, I think this is much better:
<http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php>. $1150 for a custom geometry
frame.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Carl Sundquist

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Apr 24, 2009, 9:28:15 PM4/24/09

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I don't know either. Maybe it has something to do with where the
handlebar tape stops.

AMuzi

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Apr 24, 2009, 9:57:03 PM4/24/09

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We say "open frame" rather than "girl bike".

(p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
explicitly specified in great detail.)

jim beam

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Apr 24, 2009, 10:35:45 PM4/24/09

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what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? this group has been
grossly infected recently it seems.

typically, aluminum is:

cheaper
stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
lighter
more corrosion resistant.

is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
missing out on?

Andre Jute

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Apr 24, 2009, 10:44:44 PM4/24/09

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I certainly hope Seaton sees that. This thread is was created to
educate him.

> (p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
> explicitly specified in great detail.)

Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ

Andre Jute

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Apr 24, 2009, 10:51:39 PM4/24/09

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On Apr 25, 3:35 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:

> > For value, I think this is much better:
> > <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php>. $1150 for a custom geometry
> > frame.
>
> what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? this group has been
> grossly infected recently it seems.

That's why I called this thread

WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
>

> typically, aluminum is:
>
> cheaper
> stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
> lighter
> more corrosion resistant.
>
> is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
> missing out on?

I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly and on the other
one, supposed to be smooth, it is still not smooth enough.

Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina

jim beam

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:05:50 PM4/24/09

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Andre Jute wrote:
> On Apr 25, 3:35�am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>>> For value, I think this is much better:
>>> <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php>. $1150 for a custom geometry
>>> frame.
>> what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? �this group has been
>> grossly infected recently it seems.
>
> That's why I called this thread
> WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
>> typically, aluminum is:
>>
>> cheaper
>> stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
>> lighter
>> more corrosion resistant.
>>
>> is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
>> missing out on?
>
> I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
> except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly

that's an ignorant jobstian bullshit excuse. if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing. as a sex-object, susan boyle is
positively porcine. as a singer, she's not half bad.

> and on the other
> one, supposed to be smooth, it is still not smooth enough.
>
> Andre Jute
> "The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
> must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
> Pelayo Ricart Medina
>

yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.

Dan O

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:06:22 PM4/24/09

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I wouldn't mind trying an aluminum frame, and when hunting around e.g.
Craigslist I do keep an eye open for Cannondale and Klein and the
like; but since I started out acquiring older, used (more affordable)
bicycles, I have a bunch of gear now for 126 mm rear dropout spacing,
and most of the quality frames available for this gear just happens to
be made of steel.

> typically, aluminum is:
>
> cheaper
> stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
> lighter
> more corrosion resistant.
>
> is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
> missing out on?

methinks you must be immune, anyway ;-)

Andre Jute

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:23:52 PM4/24/09

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On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:

> Andre Jute wrote:
> > I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
> > except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
>
> that's an ignorant jobstian bullshit excuse. if the mechanicals are
> good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
> ability to ride the damned thing.

How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.

> > Andre Jute
> > "The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
> > must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
> > Pelayo Ricart Medina
>
> yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
> sometimes.

Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.

Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink

Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:

*******

WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute
Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman
and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with
historic
roots.

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/default.php?cPath=28&osCsid=68fd3b5...

Andre Jute

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:29:13 PM4/24/09

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On Apr 25, 4:06 am, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wouldn't mind trying an aluminum frame, and when hunting around e.g.
> Craigslist I do keep an eye open for Cannondale

Gotta be a Cannondale. Smooth welding and beautiful lines. Last year I
had a Cannondale Trekking Rohloff (probably a European-only model) on
order but the factory sold out just as my order went in. Wonderfully
satisfying custom-designed dropouts. -- AJ

Carl Sundquist

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:30:23 PM4/24/09

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Bumpers (which almost look like S&S type couplings) are on the down
tubes to protect the tubes from impacts by the handlebar if it swings
around that far.

RonSonic

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:34:55 PM4/24/09

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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>> (p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
>> explicitly specified in great detail.)
>
>Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
>to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ

I'd think that being so sophisticated that you deem one of the finer makes a
joke you might have the ability to look at a fucking picture and pick out the
items of which there are two that aren't mentioned in Sheldon's glossary. Hint,
they are prominent in the photo's and most bikes don't have them.

First magnafluxing in a thread about aluminum seatposts and then this.

Seems you have that getting to the pub problem solved.

jim beam

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:35:40 PM4/24/09

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Andre Jute wrote:
> On Apr 25, 4:05�am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
>>> except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
>> that's an ignorant jobstian bullshit excuse. �if the mechanicals are
>> good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
>> ability to ride the damned thing.
>
> How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
> artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
> troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
> your face.

it's attributing more value to the aesthetics than the tech, that's why.
tech news group, remember?

>
>>> Andre Jute
>>> �"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
>>> must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
>>> Pelayo Ricart Medina
>> yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
>> sometimes.
>
> Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.
>
> Andre Jute
> The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
> drink
>
> Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
> and pedigree in steel bikes:
>

andre, examine the facts associated with the following:

corrosion
price
stiffness
weight

now quitcher bitchin.

Andre Jute

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Apr 24, 2009, 11:36:29 PM4/24/09

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Thanks, Carl. I studied the photographs again and wondered about
those, deciding they must be some obsolete brand of folding couplings.
Okay, bumpers. That's altogether a nice bike with its tasteful
brightwork. -- AJ

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Apr 25, 2009, 12:02:03 AM4/25/09

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On Apr 25, 4:34 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> (p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
> >> explicitly specified in great detail.)
>
> >Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
> >to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ
>
> I'd think that being so sophisticated that you deem one of the finer makes a
> joke

Let's refine that for you. The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
still be obscene.

But you know, Ronni, this thread wouldn't have happened if Seaton
didn't decide to slap me in the face with the Godiva. Weren't you the
one telling us yesterday that Seaton would get away with it? Did you
really expect me to let it go? I expect a quicker uptake from someone
who's had the privilege of associating with me for fifteen years.

>you might have the ability to look at a fucking picture and pick out the
> items of which there are two that aren't mentioned in Sheldon's glossary. Hint,
> they are prominent in the photo's and most bikes don't have them.

Oh, I arrived at those two components as the only unidentified ones on
the bike, and decided they must be folding couplings. I don't see that
there is any shame in not knowing something and asking. Getting angry
about someone else not knowing is the sign of someone with a very
limited band of knowledge. I prefer not to clutter my mind but instead
to know the people who know.

> First magnafluxing in a thread about aluminum seatposts and then this.

Magnafluxing right next to a quote about treated surfaces, dear Ronni.
Perfectly relevant. At least as relevant as you taking your foul
temper out in any thread I'm in.

> Seems you have that getting to the pub problem solved.

I haven't seen the inside of a pub in several years. I drink wine with
my meals and consider pub-type smalltalk a waste of my time.

For those who want to know what I said about Waterford that upset dear
Ronni so, here it is:

****

Andre Jute

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Apr 25, 2009, 12:14:34 AM4/25/09

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On Apr 25, 4:35 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
> >>> except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
> >> that's an ignorant jobstian bullshit excuse. if the mechanicals are
> >> good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
> >> ability to ride the damned thing.
>
> > How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
> > artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
> > troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
> > your face.
>
> it's attributing more value to the aesthetics than the tech, that's why.
> tech news group, remember?

What, you can only post here if you use exclusive ugly gear? Wakey,
wakey, Jumbo, half or more the bikes in America are sold for people to
look cool on, not for an functional or technical superiority.

> > Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
> > and pedigree in steel bikes:
>
> <snip more steel blathering>
>
> andre, examine the facts associated with the following:
>
> corrosion
> price
> stiffness
> weight

Yes, but since my steel bike is vastly overspecified for any demand I
will ever place on it in service, the parameters are quite irrelevant.
My technical interest is in the gearboxes and the tyres, and it is
notable that my steel bike is lighter than two ali bikes I have with
roughly the same spec (hub gearboxes, hub dynamoes, full touring/city
gear). I find both ali and steel frames satisfactory, but steel more
so for inexpressible reasons as well as those inherent in the design
differences between the bikes.

> now quitcher bitchin.

Eh, you're changing side are you? You now reckon that complaining
about excessive Waterford pricing is "bitching". Make up your mind,
Jumbo. (Nah,, don't bother. I'm just trolling you. I know you wouldn't
waste Waterford money on a mere bike, even a carbon one.)

Andre Jute
Carpals of iron. IRON! I tell you. -- Ron Bales on Andre Jute

Andre Jute

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Apr 25, 2009, 12:35:27 AM4/25/09

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On Apr 25, 4:42 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.

And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.

I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.

landotter

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Apr 25, 2009, 12:37:32 AM4/25/09

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On Apr 24, 7:45 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

> [drivelsnip]

No, a Waterford is a work of art made by craftsmen. They are very
pretty and that's why, if you have a couple grand burning a hole in
your pocket, and love bicycles, you should buy one. If indeed it's the
bike your heart desires. They do seem a few hundred bux overpriced to
me--but whadda I know? That might be due to fancy dropouts or laquer
or something I'm missing. People spend more on Harley farts.

While I like pretty--and there are a few really lovely Waterfords
plowing the streets here--these days decent frames are a mass
commodity and really the least important part of a bike equation so
long as they're the right size. Again--I see high end bikes for
schlepps as being rolling art, that I appreciate, but not really an
important component to the actual riding experience.

My best neighbor friend, whose pooch is best buddies with mine, has a
Serrota with a carbon rear end. The welds are quite nice, but not
sanded or anything. I doubt that bike is any more reliable than my
steel Redline, whose tigged joints are 80% as nice (except in a couple
nasty hidden places) and which has no glued interfaces. My Redline
fits me like a glove. Her Serotta probably saves her a pound and a
half, has a slightly nicer finish, and costs $1500 more.

Standard frames just are sorta boring these days. It's been a hundred
years and we now have robots building bang on straight frames for
peanuts.

The actual build is much more interesting to me. The wheels and
dialing are far more important than the frame--Taiwan's got us covered
on that. Handlebars are more interesting than frames. 72.5..top tube..
72.5. Zzzzzzz.

It's a good time to be a cyclist. When you can buy a boring strong and
reliable Asian frame for a couple hundred bux, then support your local
economy by having wheels built by your LBS. Or even have them assemble
the whole enchilada.

Want coach lines? Put them on an El Camino where they belong.

Andre Jute

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Apr 25, 2009, 12:41:17 AM4/25/09

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On Apr 25, 4:46 am, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
> > to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ
>
> Urethane layered with a tempered steel center. Keep the
> handlebar and caliper from denting frame tubes.

Right. Here in Urp we have a thingy made by Hebie which bolts onto the
bottom tube and reaches forward via spring loading to the fork and
stops it turning that far. Inelegant, klunky, too much weight (you can
tell I don't have one!). Idworx has a more elegant, simple and low-
mass solution of a stop on the headset that prevents the handlebars
turning more than 90 degrees to either side.

Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina

landotter

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Apr 25, 2009, 12:45:28 AM4/25/09

to

On Apr 24, 9:57 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> > Andre Jute wrote:

[carlsnip, with respect]
[drivelsnip]

> We say "open frame" rather than "girl bike".
>

In Sverige, we say "damcykel", or "ladie's bicycle"--but no one gives
a shit if you're a guy on one. Just like the Dutch men on their creaky
old omafiets. Whaddever. It's only in the states that people get their
Tampax Slim impacted over it. I rode my restored girlie Raleigh Sprite
here for a couple years till I tired of the giggles. (That and the
fact that that twat of a bike would shimmy really good at 25mph,
especially with a load on the Pletscher--another case for being
against the nostalgia of old frames)

Andre Jute

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Apr 25, 2009, 12:56:03 AM4/25/09

to

On Apr 25, 5:37 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 24, 7:45 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
> > [drivelsnip]

Ott cut my original so that he could go off into fairyland without
inconvenient facts. Like this one:

>Waterford ... do seem a few hundred bux overpriced to
> me--but whadda I know?

You shoulda read the post you snipped, Ott. A base Waterford frame is
twenty-two hundreds, $2200 pricier than a top pedigree British bike.
That's not "a few" hundred as you try to pretend. The evidence you cut
is repeated below for your information.

>That might be due to fancy dropouts or laquer

Nope.

> or something I'm missing

Greed?

Here's first the "drivelsnip" of hard facts restored:

WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

*********
And here's Ott skipping through fairyland:

RonSonic

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Apr 25, 2009, 2:58:53 AM4/25/09

to

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Apr 25, 4:34 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> (p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
>> >> explicitly specified in great detail.)
>>
>> >Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
>> >to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ
>>
>> I'd think that being so sophisticated that you deem one of the finer makes a
>> joke
>
>Let's refine that for you. The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
>dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
>justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
>makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
>same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
>still be obscene.
>
>But you know, Ronni, this thread wouldn't have happened if Seaton
>didn't decide to slap me in the face with the Godiva. Weren't you the
>one telling us yesterday that Seaton would get away with it? Did you
>really expect me to let it go?

Some guy on the interwebs mocks your bike and you try to shut him up by writing
a tantrum about some company that has nothing whatever to do with any of this.
Please, explain how that works. Or will you just get revenge by typing something
mean about Verizon?

>> First magnafluxing in a thread about aluminum seatposts and then this.
>
>Magnafluxing right next to a quote about treated surfaces, dear Ronni.
>Perfectly relevant. At least as relevant as you taking your foul
>temper out in any thread I'm in.

No, Andre. Magnafluxing has nothing whatever to do with anodized aluminum
seatposts. Spin it how you will.

>> Seems you have that getting to the pub problem solved.
>
>I haven't seen the inside of a pub in several years. I drink wine with
>my meals and consider pub-type smalltalk a waste of my time.

It would do you far more good than what you're doing here.

RonSonic

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Apr 25, 2009, 3:05:48 AM4/25/09

to

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:37:11 -0700, jim beam <retard...@bad.example.net>
wrote:

>Andre Jute wrote:

>> On Apr 25, 4:06?am, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't mind trying an aluminum frame, and when hunting around e.g.
>>> Craigslist I do keep an eye open for Cannondale
>>
>> Gotta be a Cannondale. Smooth welding and beautiful lines. Last year I
>> had a Cannondale Trekking Rohloff (probably a European-only model) on
>> order but the factory sold out just as my order went in. Wonderfully
>> satisfying custom-designed dropouts. -- AJ
>
>who givesafuck? cut that sucker up and put it under the microscope -
>i'll tell you what's beautiful.

Better yet, throw a leg over it and ride. You'll probably prefer the Klein that
was mentioned next before this all got cut up for comment. Oh, and Andre would
prefer the far prettier joint work and welding. Klein kept doing goofy
non-industry-standard stuff that probably didn't help their marketing but they
had some great ideas and designs and could build an aluminum bike that rode as
nicely as any.

Chalo

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 4:14:08 AM4/25/09

to

AMuzi wrote:
>
> Godiva? Way too complex.

> Nice clean Waterford open track frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html
>

> Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
> seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.
>
> YMMV.

That's a nice bike. As in "look what I nice bike I found at the swap
meet."

For three grand, a bike frame had better be *special*. Like, "nobody
in the world ever saw a bike like that" special, in a good way. Being
technically unique but fundamentally ordinary, with tasty paint and
lugs, won't do it.

And anybody who wants me take a bike with tubies must pay me to do
it. Sewups rank below their classmates, block chain and 13/16"
seatposts, on my wish list.

Chalo

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Apr 25, 2009, 4:25:43 AM4/25/09

to

> >> What does "open" mean in your sentence above.
> >
> > I don't know either. Maybe it has something to do with where the
> > handlebar tape stops.
>
> We say "open frame" rather than "girl bike".

"Step through" is my choice, when a "ladies' frame" isn't actually a
lady's frame.

Chalo

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 4:38:37 AM4/25/09

to

Andre Jute wrote:
>
> The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
> dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
> justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
> makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
> same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
> still be obscene.

Waterford Precision is the continuation of Schwinn's Paramount
handbuilt frame operation, and as such is in command of as much
cycling pedigree as our broad continent offers.

That's exactly why they can ask and receive the prices they do-- not
that they'll be getting any business from me personally.

I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

Chalo

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:24:48 AM4/25/09

to

On Apr 25, 7:58 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 25, 4:34 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> (p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
> >> >> explicitly specified in great detail.)
>
> >> >Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
> >> >to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ
>
> >> I'd think that being so sophisticated that you deem one of the finer makes a
> >> joke
>
> >Let's refine that for you. The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
> >dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
> >justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
> >makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
> >same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
> >still be obscene.
>
> >But you know, Ronni, this thread wouldn't have happened if Seaton
> >didn't decide to slap me in the face with the Godiva. Weren't you the
> >one telling us yesterday that Seaton would get away with it? Did you
> >really expect me to let it go?
>
> Some guy on the interwebs mocks your bike and you try to shut him up by writing
> a tantrum about some company that has nothing whatever to do with any of this.
> Please, explain how that works. Or will you just get revenge by typing something
> mean about Verizon?

I really don't understand what you're on about, Ronni. You're spouting
off conspiracy theories ("revenge"!) and you haven't even read the
original post about which you're spouting off, which answers all you
questions. Just in case you have, and your attention span let you
down, I answer your questions in easily digestible numbered form:

1. I didn't choose Waterford. Seaton chose Waterford as the reference.

2. I didn't choose the Godiva. Seaton chose the Godiva as the
reference.

3. I didn't choose Waterford's pricing as the decisive element. Seaton
and a whole bunch of hypocritical RBT clowns chose Waterford's pricing
as the reference by their repeated remarks about the price of my
German bike.

4. I looked into Waterford before and at that time merely said I
considered their bikes too much money for too little value and excused
myself.

5. But when Waterford is publicly held up to me as the paragon of
virtue against which I should measure my choices, as Seaton did, and
I'm abused for not measuring up, then I go look hard to see if
Waterford measures up.

6. Waterford doesn't measure up to their own prices. Their Godiva
certainly doesn't even measure up to the hubs of any of my bikes, or
of Bob Jackson or Mercian, or of any of the Dutch and Swiss baukasten
bikes I considered. Waterford prices are a joke, precisely as I said.

7. I've known this all along but said nothing, as is my practice about
commercial firms, until they or their partisans put themselves in my
face. Seaton put Waterford in my face like a wet fish.

8. It isn't my problem if Waterford's boosters are incompetents who
don't check their facts before they spout off in public. I'm just
correction their wrong assumptions and grossly wrong conclusions.

9. Waterford got a very fair deal from me, a comparison of like for
like. In fact it is flattering Waterford to compare their bikes with
the likes of Utopia, Patria, Bob Jackson and Mercian. Waterford really
belongs a step or two lower, with the common or garden bikes, against
which they would look even more overpriced.

You should do your homework, Ronni, before you write in with
conspiratorial rubbish like "revenge". At a minimum you should read
the thread and discover who chose the references.

Andre Jute
Can't say fairer than that, guv

Andre Jute

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Apr 25, 2009, 5:52:49 AM4/25/09

to

On Apr 25, 9:38 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> > The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
> > dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
> > justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
> > makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
> > same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
> > still be obscene.
>
> Waterford Precision is the continuation of Schwinn's Paramount
> handbuilt frame operation, and as such is in command of as much
> cycling pedigree as our broad continent offers.

When I was looking last year, I was more impressed with the individual
bike makers in the States, a handful of whom are doing truly
innovative work. (I found the vast majority depressing, but that is to
be expected; however, it was surprising how many famous names made
dull bikes, in my estimation of course.)

> That's exactly why they can ask and receive the prices they do-- not
> that they'll be getting any business from me personally.

Mmm. There are pedigrees and pedigrees.

> I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
> by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
> throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
> with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
> from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
> willing to make an alternative recommendation.

I had the same experience with the British custom builders, though
admittedly I wanted something quite a bite more uncommon than you did.
Their promise, explicit or implicit, of building anything you want to
pay for doesn't stand up past a garish paintjob. What they really want
to build is what they built before, and preferably what they already
have tubes for in their racks. I was treated with great courtesy by
Bob Jackson, for instance, but they weren't keen on special projects
that didn't fit the generic road bike/mountain bike outlines. Same
with all the others. I was getting so desperate I was looking at David
Bohm bikes on the net... the carriage from the States would been a
killer.

In the end, patience did give each of us the bike we wanted.
Hallelujah!

Andre Jute
Patience is a learned skill

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:56:08 AM4/25/09

to

The Continentals and sometimes the British use "trapeze" for that
parallellogram form of the Godiva. I like trapeze as pretty visually
descriptive.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

Andre Jute

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Apr 25, 2009, 6:02:49 AM4/25/09

to

On Apr 25, 9:14 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
> > Godiva? Way too complex.
> > Nice clean Waterford open track frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html
>
> > Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
> > seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.
>
> > YMMV.
>
> That's a nice bike. As in "look what I nice bike I found at the swap
> meet."
>
> For three grand,

A frame with polished lugs from Waterford is probably more like four
grand, over four grand if you want the good Rohloff dropouts and a
paintjob to suit that high style. -- AJ

P. Chisholm

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 8:55:28 AM4/25/09

to

On Apr 24, 5:45 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

> An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
> by Andre Jute
>
> Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
> other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
> suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
> http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
> I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
> eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
> roots.
>
> Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
> hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
> the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
> roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The

> pricelist, here,http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricelist.php?newstype=models&Model=655

> Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
> or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/default.php?cPath=28&osCsid=68fd3b5...

> and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
> with a distinguished road pedigree.
>
> WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
> GO UPMARKET
>
> Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
> over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
> Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
> the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
> the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
> essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
> price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.
>
> A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
> equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
> fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.
>
> You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
> sane. Waterford is a joke.
>
> IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?
>
> There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
> breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
> appear to be bog-standard and dull.
>
> The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
> crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
> the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my

> Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixtehttp://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

> is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
> American stupidity.)
>
> A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
> to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
> Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
> Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
> commonplace really.
>
> What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
> advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
> profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
> but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
> cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.
>
> Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
> should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
> intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.
>
> Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
> netsites. For any other use approach the author.

There are frames made in different parts of the world that are
different prices? Astonishing!!

We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. Do
you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?

jim beam

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 9:16:52 AM4/25/09

to

RonSonic wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:37:11 -0700, jim beam <retard...@bad.example.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Apr 25, 4:06?am, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't mind trying an aluminum frame, and when hunting around e.g.
>>>> Craigslist I do keep an eye open for Cannondale
>>> Gotta be a Cannondale. Smooth welding and beautiful lines. Last year I
>>> had a Cannondale Trekking Rohloff (probably a European-only model) on
>>> order but the factory sold out just as my order went in. Wonderfully
>>> satisfying custom-designed dropouts. -- AJ
>> who givesafuck? cut that sucker up and put it under the microscope -
>> i'll tell you what's beautiful.
>
> Better yet, throw a leg over it and ride. You'll probably prefer the Klein that
> was mentioned next before this all got cut up for comment. Oh, and Andre would
> prefer the far prettier joint work and welding. Klein kept doing goofy
> non-industry-standard stuff that probably didn't help their marketing

"probably"??? make that "definitely" ron.

> but they
> had some great ideas and designs and could build an aluminum bike that rode as
> nicely as any.

that's because they not only figured out the torsional stiffness thing,
but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for that.

jim beam

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 9:17:16 AM4/25/09

to

Andre Jute wrote:
> On Apr 25, 4:35�am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
>>>>> except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
>>>> that's an ignorant jobstian bullshit excuse. if the mechanicals are
>>>> good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
>>>> ability to ride the damned thing.
>>> How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
>>> artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
>>> troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
>>> your face.
>> it's attributing more value to the aesthetics than the tech, that's why.
>> � tech news group, remember?
>
> What, you can only post here if you use exclusive ugly gear? Wakey,
> wakey, Jumbo, half or more the bikes in America are sold for people to
> look cool on, not for an functional or technical superiority.

how the fuck would you know? just because a few whiners on r.b.t bleat
about bikes that cost more then $500? just like they whine about their
fictional "brittleness" of cfrp when in fact, they're really bitching
because they can't afford it?

>
>>> Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
>>> and pedigree in steel bikes:
>> <snip more steel blathering>
>>
>> andre, examine the facts associated with the following:
>>
>> corrosion
>> price
>> stiffness
>> weight
>
> Yes, but since my steel bike is vastly overspecified

translation: "overpriced".

> for any demand I
> will ever place on it in service, the parameters are quite irrelevant.
> My technical interest is in the gearboxes and the tyres, and it is
> notable that my steel bike is lighter than two ali bikes I have with
> roughly the same spec (hub gearboxes, hub dynamoes, full touring/city
> gear). I find both ali and steel frames satisfactory, but steel more
> so for inexpressible reasons as well as those inherent in the design
> differences between the bikes.

give us a break andre.

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 12:35:23 PM4/25/09

to

There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that
kind of dough on a steel frame, particullarly since in my size
(63-64cm), steel frame just looks so leggy to me now that my aesthetic
has adjusted to OS aluminum. I also don't know if modern steels are
all that repairable, but I leave that up to the experts to declare.
If not, it sort of undercuts one of the major claimed benefits of
steel. -- Jay Beattie.

jim beam

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 12:43:48 PM4/25/09

to

they're repairable just like prior steels. but the cost/benefit isn't
there.

o/s aluminum all the way for me.

RonSonic

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 1:10:00 PM4/25/09

to

Somebody on the interwebz makes fun of your girlie bike and you respond by
ranting at a company that has nothing to do with any of this. When this is
pointed out to you you go off on another typing tantrum to justify it.

Even worse, the specifics of your criticism more or less prove that you don't
know enough to compare these products, much less declare one of them "a joke."

Jute, you're acting like a flake.

Again.

RonSonic

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 1:40:35 PM4/25/09

to

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Apr 25, 9:38 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>
>> > The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
>> > dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
>> > justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
>> > makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
>> > same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
>> > still be obscene.
>>
>> Waterford Precision is the continuation of Schwinn's Paramount
>> handbuilt frame operation, and as such is in command of as much
>> cycling pedigree as our broad continent offers.
>
>When I was looking last year, I was more impressed with the individual
>bike makers in the States, a handful of whom are doing truly
>innovative work. (I found the vast majority depressing, but that is to
>be expected;

Yes, your admitted ignorance of bicycles and the design thereof would certainly
lead you to not understand what is new or interesting or extraordinary. But
that's the usual for you, claim expertise until you stick your foot in it and
then demand consideration for yourself as a humble beginner.

>> That's exactly why they can ask and receive the prices they do-- not
>> that they'll be getting any business from me personally.
>
>Mmm. There are pedigrees and pedigrees.

And the Waterford pedigree stands with any.

>> I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
>> by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
>> throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
>> with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
>> from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
>> willing to make an alternative recommendation.
>
>I had the same experience with the British custom builders, though
>admittedly I wanted something quite a bite more uncommon than you did.
>Their promise, explicit or implicit, of building anything you want to
>pay for doesn't stand up past a garish paintjob. What they really want
>to build is what they built before, and preferably what they already
>have tubes for in their racks.

How about something more like "a frame type with which they have no experience
cannot be guaranteed to meet expectations at a reasonable price and even at an
unreasonable price, we are unwilling to turn the client into a beta tester."

Having experience in designing and building custom products, I can tell you that
while experimentation in unfamiliar lines can be enjoyable and offer future
benefits, it doesn't pay the bills. The necessary experimentation and R&D must
be paid for, either by the present client or the builder as an investment in a
future product offering. Exorbitantly expensive girlie bikes being such a small
niche, I'm not surprised you had difficulty finding a builder.

People who build custom products eventually learn better than to experiment on a
paying customer unless that customer already has a solid relationship with the
company, is knowledgeable enough to provide useful feedback, is mainstream
enough to provide feedback that will be useful in future cases and who
understands the whole project may result in disappointment. Even then it is
risky. Sorry, you either get a variation on a theme or an adaptation from prior
art.

For their ability to match tubing grades, thicknesses, frame geometry, fitments
and tubing manipulations, join it beautifully and soundly whether with lug,
fillet braze or tig, so that the whole is a coherent, elegant and functional
work perfectly suited to the rider, having you reduce it to a "garish paintjob"
is unfair.

I don't even know those guys, I don't buy, build or own any custom frames and
still I bristle to see some ignorant yahoo with delusions like yourself insult
their craft.

"Complaining about things you don't know about," used to be a private vice -
thanks to the interwebs you can inflict your ignorance on multitudes.

Chalo

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 2:16:33 PM4/25/09

to

AMuzi wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
> > by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
> > throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
> > with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
> > from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
> > willing to make an alternative recommendation.
>
> Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg
>
> Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? Look at the
relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. That's an example
of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a
remarkable piece of work.

Chalo

AMuzi

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 3:23:44 PM4/25/09

to

>> Chalo wrote:
>>> I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
>>> by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
>>> throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
>>> with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
>>> from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
>>> willing to make an alternative recommendation.

> AMuzi wrote:
>> Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg
>> Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

Chalo wrote:
> Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? Look at the
> relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. That's an example
> of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a
> remarkable piece of work.

As a matter of fact, I would not. I'm 'medium Italian' (I
ride everyone's sample size!)

I just recalled that photo as an impressive piece.

And I'm surely not an expert; I often defer to Waterford (or
Zinn) for the tall realm (up to about 65cm I could advise
with reasonable experience)

Chalo

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:17:15 PM4/25/09

to

A Muzi wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:

> >
> > A Muzi wrote:
> >>
> >> Chalo wrote:
> >>> I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
> >>> by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
> >>> throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
> >>> with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
> >>> from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
> >>> willing to make an alternative recommendation.
> >>

> >> Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg
> >

> > Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? Look at the
> > relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. That's an example
> > of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a
> > remarkable piece of work.
>
> As a matter of fact, I would not. I'm 'medium Italian' (I
> ride everyone's sample size!)
>
> I just recalled that photo as an impressive piece.
>
> And I'm surely not an expert; I often defer to Waterford (or
> Zinn) for the tall realm (up to about 65cm I could advise
> with reasonable experience)

My point is that if the bike were scaled down to say, 56cm frame size,
some of the other dimensions would be completely effed.

I did a little Carl Fogel style on-screen measurement and applied a
conversion ratio to turn the Yao Ming frame into a 56cm level top tube
frame. These are some of the other dimensions I got from that
ciphering:

29cm chainstay
50cm top tube, center to center
54cm front center

Call me crazy, but I don't think you would find a bike built that way
to be a particularly sweet ride.

Chalo

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:17:36 PM4/25/09

to

You're right. I was astonished to discover Waterford charges three to
five times as much as distinguished makers like Bob Jackson and
Mercian for a frame and fork. Even more amazed that Waterford gets
away with it. Congratulations on having a Waterford dealership, Peter;
the margin on Waterford bikes must be pleasing.

> We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women.

Waterford makes a mixte frame? Under what name? If you're going to
claim the Godiva is a mixte, don't, it will just show your ignorance.
As a bike dealer you really should be better informed, Peter. The
profile of a mixte looks like it has an extra stay between the
seatstay and the chainstay. The Godiva doesn't. Even Waterford isn't
greedy enough to tell the outright lie that the Godiva is a mixte,
though their overly-careful denial probably leaves their thicker
dealers believing that they did so claim.

Here in the civilized EU that Waterford ad for the Godiva would be the
subject of a complaint to the advertising standards authority on the
first day it tried to mislead, and might easily fail to satisfy the
trades descriptions acts (which forbid false advertising claims) in a
whole variety of countries.

>Do you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?

Nah, I'm not a shaveleg roadie in a tutu, but thanks for the offer,
m'lady.

Andre Jute
A roadie in full fig, arse in the air, is a visual incitement to
"pour encourager les autres"

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:27:08 PM4/25/09

to

You don't know what I paid for it, Jumbo. But I feel I got value for
every penny, and that's what matters.

> > for any demand I
> > will ever place on it in service, the parameters are quite irrelevant.
> > My technical interest is in the gearboxes and the tyres, and it is
> > notable that my steel bike is lighter than two ali bikes I have with
> > roughly the same spec (hub gearboxes, hub dynamoes, full touring/city
> > gear). I find both ali and steel frames satisfactory, but steel more
> > so for inexpressible reasons as well as those inherent in the design
> > differences between the bikes.
>
> give us a break andre.

I'm serious. You and I are generally on the same side on materials
properties and uses. But I have vast experience of discriminating
matters of taste from strict engineering, and you should give me a
break there if you expect a break on materials science.

> >> now quitcher bitchin.
>
> > Eh, you're changing side are you? You now reckon that complaining
> > about excessive Waterford pricing is "bitching". Make up your mind,

> > Jumbo. (Nah, don't bother. I'm just trolling you. I know you wouldn't

> > waste Waterford money on a mere bike, even a carbon one.)
>
> > Andre Jute
> > Carpals of iron. IRON! I tell you. -- Ron Bales on Andre Jute
>
> i'm all about having you quit your incessant trolling. see above.

You're two bellylaughs and a hamburger patty short of sense of humour,
my man. But never mind. Just laugh at every third sentence of mine and
no one will notice your handicap.

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:29:01 PM4/25/09

to

On Apr 25, 4:24 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Apr 25, 5:37 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Apr 24, 7:45 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
> >>> [drivelsnip]
>
> > Ott cut my original so that he could go off into fairyland without
> > inconvenient facts. Like this one:
>
> >> Waterford ... do seem a few hundred bux overpriced to
> >> me--but whadda I know?
>
> > You shoulda read the post you snipped, Ott. A base Waterford frame is
> > twenty-two hundreds, $2200 pricier than a top pedigree British bike.
> > That's not "a few" hundred as you try to pretend. The evidence you cut
> > is repeated below for your information.
> > -snip-
>
> $1300 actually:http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFD08DC2.JPG
> full custom, any imaginable color, prompt delivery.

Second hand? -- AJ

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:32:12 PM4/25/09

to

On Apr 25, 4:41 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> -snipity snip-
>
> Chalo wrote:
> > I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
> > by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
> > throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
> > with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
> > from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
> > willing to make an alternative recommendation.
>
> Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg
>
> Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

What's that, Fish People slang for, "Jesus, that one dangerous bike,
throw you off on head first time you pedal hard." -- AJ

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 5:36:54 PM4/25/09

to

You may visit Andre's recipes at:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:05:39 PM4/25/09

to

I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.

But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.

Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.

>I just couldn't bring myself to spend that
> kind of dough on a steel frame, particullarly since in my size
> (63-64cm), steel frame just looks so leggy to me now that my aesthetic
> has adjusted to OS aluminum.

Bingo. I too used to think that OS ali looked clumsy. Now I'm used to
it and it looks so right that I had to adjust to the much slenderer
steel tubes of my Utopia Kranich.

>I also don't know if modern steels are
> all that repairable, but I leave that up to the experts to declare.
> If not, it sort of undercuts one of the major claimed benefits of
> steel. -- Jay Beattie.

My bike comes with a ten year guarantee. If it breaks and they can't
fix it, they give me a new frame. I reckon if it lasts ten years
without breaking, it will last thirty.

I didn't buy a steel bike on the technicalities. I just wanted a steel
bike to see how it rides, and I always liked the looks of lugs. You
only live once and you can't take it with you. (Not that I will need
any money to bribe St Peter. He's conditioned to call Calvinists
first.)

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:22:49 PM4/25/09

to

Yawn. If you have a single point in refutation to make to my facts,
Ron Bales, now is the time. But you know my facts are irrefutable, so
you descend to your normal infantile name-calling and motive-
mongering.

For the record, I didn't drag in Waterford, Seaton did.

For the record, if Seaton had named a European bikemaker instead of
the American Waterford Cycles, and I had said the same about a
European maker, Bales would be dead quiet. It is specifically because
Waterford is in the United States that we have this nonsense from
Bales, who fears conspiracies to commit lese majeste.

Andre Jute
Iconographer--- er, sorry, iconoclast

On Apr 25, 6:10 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

Yawn. If you have a single point in refutation to make to my facts,
Ron Bales, now is the time. But you know my facts are irrefutable, so
you descend to your normal infantile name-calling and motive-
mongering.

For the record, I didn't drag in Waterford, Seaton did.

For the record, if Seaton had named a European bikemaker instead of
the American Waterford Cycles, and I had said the same about a
European maker, Bales would be dead quiet. It is specifically because
Waterford is in the United States that we have this nonsense from
Bales, who fears conspiracies to commit lese majeste.

Andre Jute
Iconographer--- er, sorry, iconoclast

Tom Sherman

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:26:18 PM4/25/09

to

Hey, stop confusing the issue with facts!

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

Tom Sherman

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:34:33 PM4/25/09

to

Andre Jute wrote:
> [...]

> I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
> overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
> wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
> right to use the name.
>

Richard Schwinn is the guy at Waterford Precision Cycles, so the
connection to the Schwinn Paramount is obvious. As for the name, I doubt
these people charged the bicycle company to use it:
<http://www.vi.waterford.wi.gov/>.

> But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
> their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
> itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
> workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
> you pay for.
>
> Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
> high. YMMV.
>

The also have the Gunnar line at lower prices for welded frames:
<http://www.gunnarbikes.com/>. Made in the same building by the same
workers as Waterford.

>> I just couldn't bring myself to spend that
>> kind of dough on a steel frame, particullarly since in my size
>> (63-64cm), steel frame just looks so leggy to me now that my aesthetic
>> has adjusted to OS aluminum.
>
> Bingo. I too used to think that OS ali looked clumsy. Now I'm used to
> it and it looks so right that I had to adjust to the much slenderer
> steel tubes of my Utopia Kranich.
>
>> I also don't know if modern steels are
>> all that repairable, but I leave that up to the experts to declare.
>> If not, it sort of undercuts one of the major claimed benefits of
>> steel. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> My bike comes with a ten year guarantee. If it breaks and they can't
> fix it, they give me a new frame. I reckon if it lasts ten years
> without breaking, it will last thirty.
>
> I didn't buy a steel bike on the technicalities. I just wanted a steel
> bike to see how it rides, and I always liked the looks of lugs. You
> only live once and you can't take it with you. (Not that I will need
> any money to bribe St Peter. He's conditioned to call Calvinists
> first.)
>

Presumption is a sin. :)

Tim McNamara

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:35:53 PM4/25/09

to

In article
<639c6049-3af9-41e9...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Dan O <danov...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 24, 7:35 pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:

> > Tom Sherman wrote:
> > > Andrew Muzi wrote:
> > >> Andre Jute wrote:

> > >>> WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE An investigation consequent on

> > >>> being hounded by American roadies by Andre Jute
> >
> > >>> Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom
> > >>> Sherman and other Americans, touting for business for their own
> > >>> industry, suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
> > >>> http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655 I looked,
> > >>> shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
> > >>> eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with

> > >>> historic roots. [...]

> > >> Godiva? Way too complex. Nice clean Waterford open track frame:
> > >>http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html
> >
> > >> Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
> > >> seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.
> >
> > >> YMMV.
> >

> > > What am I missing here? How is the Godiva more complex, other
> > > than cable guide braze-ons?
> >
> > > For value, I think this is much better:
> > > <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php>. $1150 for a custom
> > > geometry frame.
> >
> > what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? this group has been
> > grossly infected recently it seems.

> >
>
> I wouldn't mind trying an aluminum frame, and when hunting around

> e.g. Craigslist I do keep an eye open for Cannondale and Klein and

> the like; but since I started out acquiring older, used (more
> affordable) bicycles, I have a bunch of gear now for 126 mm rear
> dropout spacing, and most of the quality frames available for this
> gear just happens to be made of steel.
>
> > typically, aluminum is:
> >
> > cheaper
> > stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds

"Sable?"

> > lighter
> > more corrosion resistant.

less durable
less easily repaired

> > is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
> > missing out on?

Nope, you're definitely infected.

Aluminum can be a fine material with which to make a bike frame. And it
can be a poor choice, as I am sure you already know.

Tom Sherman

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:36:54 PM4/25/09

to

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article
> <639c6049-3af9-41e9...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Dan O <danov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>> [...]

>>> cheaper
>>> stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
>
> "Sable?"

> [...]

<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Sable_bull.jpg>

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:48:52 PM4/25/09

to

Yawn. Ronni Bales, a janitor in Tampa, Florida, who has never ordered
a custom bike in his life, rants and raves because I didn't go about
ordering a custom bike the way he would have. Another netstalker who
knows better than I do what happened even though he wasn't there and I
was. Flick.

Andre Jute
Bored with this little man

On Apr 25, 6:40 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

Peter Cole

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 6:51:03 PM4/25/09

to

I agree with Chalo, I had a similar experience. I have also spoken with
a few large people who, after going the custom route, weren't all that
happy. I looked at Zinn's bikes, just a quick perusal convinced me he's
clueless.

Andre Jute

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 7:10:39 PM4/25/09

to

On Apr 25, 2:27 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003REMOVET...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > [...]
> > We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. Do
> > you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?
>
> It is clear by now that Mr. Jute needs to justify his choices by
> denigrating everything else.

I haven't denigrated anything at all. I merely said the Waterford
frames are so overpriced that one can easily find superb equivalent
frames from distinguished British and other custom braziers for a
third down to as low as a fifth of the Waterford price.

All you clowns who hypocritically abused me for the price of my bike
(which you don't even know!), are now screeching because I burst your
bubble.

What's more, you and the other little hypocrites are screeching
because Waterford is an American brazier. If Russell Seaton had
chosen a French firm to hold up to me as an examplar, instead of
Waterford, you would say absolutely nothing about me ridiculing their
price list.

I repost the original post containing the amazing but true Waterford
prices below so the uncommitted reader can see or himself that I
didn't denigrate any bike or brazier.

I remains to be noted that I didn't choose Waterford for the
comparison. Russell Eaton, taunting me for having a "girlie bike", and
others harping on the price of my bike (which they don't even know),
claimed I should have shopped Waterford's Godiva instead. If Waterford
feels hard done by through my comparisons, they should blame Eaton,
Bales, Sherman and the other members of that little gang.

Andre Jute
Never more brutal than he has to be -- Nelson Mandela
(a blatantly unsubtle sig just for Ronni)

Here's the original, with the amazing numbers:

*******

WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/default.php?cPath=28&osCsid=68fd3b50f0db60154d0dc9b6796b2ac5

netsites. Any other use approach the author.

Clive George

unread,

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 9:20:56 PM4/25/09

It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with
a master frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride,
then builds the exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions
is just that.

--
Michael Press

datakoll

unread,

Apr 25, 2009, 11:05:16 PM4/25/09

to

bah

RonSonic

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 12:33:27 AM4/26/09

to

eyeball limit screws on der
drop shifter to most relaxed position
might have to have cable in shifter and give a bit of tension
set barrel screws to mid-ish
run cable to der
pull out slack and only slack
bolt it down.
should be close enough to dial in

Tim McNamara

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 1:17:59 AM4/26/09

to

In article <gt03a1$l0t$2...@news.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss000...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article
> > <639c6049-3af9-41e9...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> > Dan O <danov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> [...]
> >>> cheaper
> >>> stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
> >
> > "Sable?"
> > [...]
>
> <http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Sable_bull.jpg>

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 1:43:04 PM4/26/09

to

Michael Press wrote:
>
> Tim McNamara wrote:

> >
> > Michael Press wrote:
> > >
> > > It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
> > > frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
> > > exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.
> >
> > How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? ;-)
>
> What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
> you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
> semi-custom.

You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
riding than you do. Building well and coaching well are very
different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.

If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.

Chalo

jim beam

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 1:49:42 PM4/26/09

to

Chalo wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>> �Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> �Michael Press wrote:
>>>> It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
>>>> frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
>>>> exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.
>>> How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? �;-)
>> What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
>> you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
>> semi-custom.
>
> You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
> riding than you do.

so what variables does a steel frame builder have at their disposal
chalo? how much math do they do?

> Building well and coaching well are very
> different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
> other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
> be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.

all they typically, and all they basically /can/ do, given the
limitations of tubesets available, is make something to a certain size.
beyond that, their parameters are pretty much fixed. and i've yet to
meet a steel frame artisan that does any math to address things like shimmy.

>
> If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
> I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
> needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.

so how exactly does greater elasticity serve you then big guy?

Tim McNamara

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 2:54:59 PM4/26/09

to

In article <rubrum-31B871....@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:

I built a frame for myself to my specification. It's a custom built
bike. But I am by no means a master frame builder. You're defining
this much too narrowly.

Tim McNamara

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 2:58:35 PM4/26/09

to

In article <e4s8v41clep86rptq...@4ax.com>,

Still Just Me <stilln...@stillnodomains.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:43:05 -0700, jim beam
> <retard...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>

> >> Aluminum can be a fine material with which to make a bike frame.
> >> And it can be a poor choice, as I am sure you already know.
> >
> >you're such a fucking retard timmy, i can't even be bothered to put
> >your dumb ass straight. and not only are you fucking retarded,
> >you're BORING and fucking retarded.
>

> Oh, oh, JB is into his namesake again.

Yup, as usual. And as usual his grasp of reality is shaky. Oh well,
it's entertaining to get him all whipped up in a lather until he soils
himself. I'm a bad man.

jim beam

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 3:04:51 PM4/26/09

to

no, you're a fucking retarded man, timmy. badly fucking retarded.

jim beam

unread,

Apr 26, 2009, 3:06:43 PM4/26/09

to

so how did you calculate the tube diameters to use to shift the shimmy
resonance out of range for your weight/size them timmy? oh, you didn't?
well, there's a fucking retarded surprise.

Andre Jute

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Apr 26, 2009, 4:15:08 PM4/26/09

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On Apr 26, 3:42 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:

> > I'm serious. You and I are generally on the same side on materials
> > properties and uses. But I have vast experience of discriminating
> > matters of taste from strict engineering, and you should give me a
> > break there if you expect a break on materials science.
>
> oh fuck, there you go again. "discriminating taste" is just an excuse
> for willful ignorance.

Not at all, dear Jumbo. It is a reason not to let tenth-rate techies
like you tell me how to spend my money.

Andre Jute
Not everything in materials are dreamt of in Timoshenko

Jay Beattie

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Apr 26, 2009, 4:21:38 PM4/26/09

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On Apr 25, 3:05 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 25, 5:35 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 24, 9:35 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 25, 4:42 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>
> > > > On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> > > > >> Andre Jute wrote:

> > > > >> > I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
> > > > >> > except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
>
> > > > >> that's an ignorant jobstian bullshit excuse. if the mechanicals are
> > > > >> good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
> > > > >> ability to ride the damned thing.
>
> > > > >How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
> > > > >artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
> > > > >troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
> > > > >your face.
>

> > > > >> > Andre Jute
> > > > >> > "The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
> > > > >> > must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
> > > > >> > Pelayo Ricart Medina
>
> > > > >> yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
> > > > >> sometimes.
>
> > > > >Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.
>
> > > > >Andre Jute
> > > > >The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
> > > > >drink

>
> > > > >Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
> > > > >and pedigree in steel bikes:
>

> > > > Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
> > > > argument.
>
> > > Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
> > > is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
> > > Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
> > > -- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
> > > Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
> > > is the last of the big chargers.
>
> > > And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
> > > Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
> > > I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to look it up) you
> > > get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
> > > open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
> > > too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
> > > only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.
>
> > > I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
> > > established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
> > > in the Benelux or Germany.
>
> > There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
> > shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. As for hearth brazing
> > and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
> > in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. Mercian uses air hardened steels,
> > starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
> > purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. The Waterfords
> > are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
> > additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
> > Some is obviously hype.
>
> I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
> overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
> wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
> right to use the name.
>
> But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
> their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
> itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
> workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
> you pay for.

>
> Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
> high. YMMV.

BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

jim beam

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Apr 26, 2009, 4:33:10 PM4/26/09

to

no shit.

>
> You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
> furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
> basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
> the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
> goes both ways.

it doesn't take the japanese to do that - we can do it here too. old
jeans for sale in haight/ashbury, san francisco, for $400 - vintage
levi's allegedly from the 1950's. rich white trendy kids store.

jim beam

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Apr 26, 2009, 4:33:37 PM4/26/09

to

goddamned hypocrite. and attempting advocacy in matters you don't
understand is not discrimination, it's simply bleating in the dark in a
feeble attempt at staying in touch with the other sheep around you.

Andre Jute

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Apr 26, 2009, 4:47:37 PM4/26/09

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On Apr 26, 6:43 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
> riding than you do. Building well and coaching well are very
> different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
> other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
> be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.

Not quite as bad as letting the RBT clowns tell him what he should
want.

> If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
> I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
> needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.

Yah. I would have ended up with a mountain bike that doesn't take the
wheelsize I want, has too high a bottom bracket, too high a top bar,
wrong angles, wrong ergonomics, too short chainstays, and not even the
appearance I wanted. Ugh.

Andre Jute
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf

AMuzi

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Apr 26, 2009, 5:08:48 PM4/26/09

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Old dented keirin frames balance the trade.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andre Jute

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Apr 26, 2009, 5:42:47 PM4/26/09

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Heh-heh! That's probably the reason the resident mouthbreathers
reacted so much over the top to my standard comparison between
manufacturers, which Waterford lost by so far as not to be in the
game. But I wish Waterford luck in the collecting their premium; if I
were Waterford, I'd charge the roadies on RBT a double premium for
being so awkward and anti-social.

> You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
> furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
> basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
> the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
> goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

I can understand all this. Americans, by and large, don't have history
(and very few of them are thoroughly rooted in the land), and those
who do somehow feel that their history isn't as valuable as anyone
else's. It's silly. But the Daughters of the American Revolution make
up for Americans' cultural cringe in spades!

Andre Jute
Kulturny

Hank Wirtz

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Apr 26, 2009, 5:59:08 PM4/26/09

to

What model FD do you have? it may have a different cable pull rate
than your shifter is designed for.

RonSonic

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Apr 26, 2009, 6:23:09 PM4/26/09

to

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:49:42 -0700, jim beam <retard...@bad.example.net>
wrote:

>Chalo wrote:
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> ?Tim McNamara wrote:

>>>> ?Michael Press wrote:
>>>>> It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
>>>>> frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
>>>>> exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.

>>>> How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? ?;-)

>>> What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
>>> you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
>>> semi-custom.
>>
>> You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
>> riding than you do.
>
>so what variables does a steel frame builder have at their disposal
>chalo? how much math do they do?
>
>
>> Building well and coaching well are very
>> different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
>> other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
>> be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.
>
>all they typically, and all they basically /can/ do, given the
>limitations of tubesets available, is make something to a certain size.
> beyond that, their parameters are pretty much fixed. and i've yet to
>meet a steel frame artisan that does any math to address things like shimmy.
>
>
>>
>> If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
>> I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
>> needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.
>
>so how exactly does greater elasticity serve you then big guy?

Don't know about the elasticity thing, that'd have to be addressed in tubing
size and choice, along with the seat stays. But I'm sure it serves to keep his
ass in front of the rear wheel and maybe keep the front tire touching the ground
on uphills.

jim beam

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Apr 26, 2009, 9:36:20 PM4/26/09

to

that's the problem - in steel, you really don't get much choice.

> along with the seat stays. But I'm sure it serves to keep his
> ass in front of the rear wheel and maybe keep the front tire touching the ground
> on uphills.

in theory, but afaik, you can't /get/ a 21" chainstay in steel.

jim beam

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Apr 26, 2009, 9:44:18 PM4/26/09

to

that's why you're a fred andre - if you're a nose breather, you're not
pushing hard enough.

> reacted so much over the top to my standard comparison between
> manufacturers, which Waterford lost by so far as not to be in the
> game. But I wish Waterford luck in the collecting their premium; if I
> were Waterford, I'd charge the roadies on RBT a double premium for
> being so awkward and anti-social.
>
>> You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
>> furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
>> basements and that are sold here as "antiques." �On the other hand,
>> the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
>> goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> I can understand all this. Americans, by and large, don't have history
> (and very few of them are thoroughly rooted in the land),

and that's why americans do stuff. all you fucking stay-at-homes are
hidebound by your traditions and old habits.

Andre Jute

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Apr 26, 2009, 10:06:41 PM4/26/09

to

On Apr 27, 2:36 am, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> RonSonic wrote:

> > On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:49:42 -0700, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net>

Only if you're the sort of hidebound clown who waits for someone else
to develop a set of tubes, which will limit your geometry. But people
with initiative and brains build bikes to their own design (rather
than what they're *permitted* to do by the mainstream tube suppliers)
by simply developing their own tubes. The modern Pedersen is made with
such specially developed tubes, I ride a bicycle made with such tubes
specially developed by Van Raam and Utopia, any materials expert who
isn't fast asleep should be able to cite a dozen more examples.

> > along with the seat stays. But I'm sure it serves to keep his
> > ass in front of the rear wheel and maybe keep the front tire touching the ground
> > on uphills.
>
> in theory, but afaik, you can't /get/ a 21" chainstay in steel.

Bloody hell! You put yourself forward as a materials expert, Jumbo?
What the hell is wrong with you, man? If you can't imagine how Chalo
made his chainstays -- and every high school with a metalwork shop has
dozens of kids who'll be happy to enlighten you -- why not just ask
him instead of pontificating emptily about what can't be bought off
the shelf?

What's the point of knowing about materials if you're just another
fashion victim who thinks that, if it can't be build with standard off
the shelf parts, it can't be built at all?

Andre Jute
Why do colleges drain the imagination from all the students of
technical subjects?