Re: Check your STI/Ergo shift cables
Tom_Sherman
> As I mentioned a month or so ago, we've been getting a HUGE number of
> bikes in lately with broken and breaking shift cables. And before my
> ride up Alba & Mtn Charlie this past Sunday I decided to check my own
> and, what do you know, my rear shift cable had about half of its strands
> broken.
>
> Normally, we expect to see failed shift cables at 7-12,000 miles or so.
> However, we're seeing shift cables failing with as few as 3,000 miles,
> particularly right side (rear derailleur).
>
> It's pretty easy to check for this on most bikes. Using the shift lever,
> shift up to the largest rear sprocket then, without turning the cranks
> (no chain movement), click the shift lever down to the smallest
> sprocket, which will produce enough slack in the cable that you should
> be able to slip it out of the cable stop on the chainstay, freeing up
> enough cable that you can push the cable back through the shift lever,
> exposing the end and any broken strands that might exist. Look *very*
> carefully, not just for broken strands, but any evidence of the cable
> not being wound consistently (the first sign that a strand is about to
> fail).
>
> I do not have a handle on why this is happening. One could theorize
> there are some bad cables out there, but I've seen it happen with three
> different brands of cables, including Shimano. Some cables are from
> Japan, some from Taiwan, so different sources.
>
> So please check your cables (or have a shop do it for you) and don't get
> caught on the "wrong" side of the hill without the gears you need to get
> back. :-)
>
This is only occurring with brifters?
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
ZBicyclist
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>> So please check your cables (or have a shop do it for you) and
>> don't
>> get caught on the "wrong" side of the hill without the gears you
>> need to get back. :-)
>>
> This is only occurring with brifters?
I have this image of Mike J. using friction shifters, but he looks a
lot younger in that image. ;)
--
Mike Kruger
"I dream of a day when my children will live in a world without the
shackles of cause and effect." -Stephen Colbert
Mike Jacoubowsky
Pretty much. I think it has to do with the tight radius of the gadget
that spools the cable. The tighter the bend, the more stress on the
cable. Gripshift doesn't have this issue, and standard mountain bike
shifters are large enough to have the real estate required for a larger
spool.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Tom_Sherman" <sunsetss000...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:guvqjg$8e9$4...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:3tKQl.16868$pr6....@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Tom_Sherman wrote:
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>
>>> So please check your cables (or have a shop do it for you) and don't
>>> get caught on the "wrong" side of the hill without the gears you
>>> need to get back. :-)
>>>
>> This is only occurring with brifters?
>
> I have this image of Mike J. using friction shifters, but he looks a
> lot younger in that image. ;)
http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/ancientstuff.htm
tcg...@mac.com
I replace my rear shift cable every 4 months (3200km) since I've
broken every one I've left on a little longer. Almost 100% failure by
6 months with both Shimano LX and XT mountain bike style shifters.
It's a cheap and easy repair, so I don't mind the frequency. What I've
noticed though is that the cables used with a down pull shifter on my
old bike lasted about 50% longer than the up pull shifter on my
current bike. The down pull looks like it flexes the cable at a less
acute angle where it's screwed to the derailleur.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
No, but with downtube shifters it's obvious when the cable is fraying
since they are exposed. With STI at least, the ends of the cables are
hidden, so you have to make explicity release the housing to create
some slack so you can see the end. Which lots of people don't do - so
they get caught with a broken cable on the road.
someone
Does it help with longevity to oil the inner wire at the brifter end
before installation?
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
I doubt it. The problem is the braided cable getting wrapped around a
tight turn. Something has to give eventually.
P. Chisholm
wrote:
> > This is only occurring with brifters?
>
> Pretty much. I think it has to do with the tight radius of the gadget
> that spools the cable. The tighter the bend, the more stress on the
> cable. Gripshift doesn't have this issue, and standard mountain bike
> shifters are large enough to have the real estate required for a larger
> spool.
The 'spool' is actually larger in diameter in STI/ERGO than on
downtube friction shifters. I think it's more a case of the sharpness
of the hole that the cable exits, as most broken strands are right
there. I also think this seems mysterious because you don't 'see' the
cable all the time like with the far superior downtube shifters so
when it starts to break, it's a surprise.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> "Tom_Sherman" <sunsetss0003REMOVE_T...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Mike Jacoubowsky
"P. Chisholm" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote in message
news:d090f1dc-f165-48d6...@x29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On May 20, 12:29 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> > This is only occurring with brifters?
>
> Pretty much. I think it has to do with the tight radius of the gadget
> that spools the cable. The tighter the bend, the more stress on the
> cable. Gripshift doesn't have this issue, and standard mountain bike
> shifters are large enough to have the real estate required for a
> larger
> spool.
=====
The 'spool' is actually larger in diameter in STI/ERGO than on
downtube friction shifters. I think it's more a case of the sharpness
of the hole that the cable exits, as most broken strands are right
there. I also think this seems mysterious because you don't 'see' the
cable all the time like with the far superior downtube shifters so
when it starts to break, it's a surprise.
=====
Peter: Count me as someone who has broken shifter wires on 1014s. But
there was no surprise, as you say, because it's exposed.
I don't think it's the sharpness of anything actually hitting the cable
doing the damage, although that's possible. With STI or Ergo, the cable
is having to overcome resistance in a lot more housing than a downtube
lever, so the amount of force is greater. Also, the cable can't arc
outward as it unspools in an STI or Ergo lever, which would essentially
reduce the radius.
The fun begins when a cable breaks completely inside the lever and you
can't get the end out. That's one area where the Ergo is definitely
superior to Shimano (easier to disassemble and fish things out).
AMuzi
Ergos stick a bit of frayed wire in one's palm just before
failure. Sort of a 'warning light' effect.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
someone
Why not the twisted variety of wire. I seem to remember something
regarding recommendations of cable/wire diameters to turn radius, but
can't recall where from. It may have been for hauling and not lighly
loaded control wires in any case.
RonSonic
That'll get your attention.
Ben C
[...]
> Ergos stick a bit of frayed wire in one's palm just before
> failure. Sort of a 'warning light' effect.
Yes I've noticed that (and come to rely on it).
Another reason I think cables break more in brifters is just that you've
got so many gears and the brifter is right where your hand is so you
change gears more.
Király
> No, but with downtube shifters it's obvious when the cable is fraying
> since they are exposed. With STI at least, the ends of the cables are
> hidden, so you have to make explicity release the housing to create
> some slack so you can see the end. Which lots of people don't do - so
> they get caught with a broken cable on the road.
I had a shift cable snap one time in the middle of a tour, 1100km from
home. It snapped right at the cable end. The cable end got stuck
inside the brifter. I *could not* get it out. The jammed cable end
with attached frayed wire wouldn't allow the brifter to ratchet back to
the position where I could get it out. Brifters busted because of a
stuck cable end.
I had to convert my bike to a 1-speed to make it to the next town
(Houston, British Columbia, pop. 3300) I was stranded there for the
next four days waiting for a set of bar-end shifters to be couriered
to me from Vancouver. There were no road bike parts to be found up
there anywhere!
Since then, nothing but bar-end shifters for me for long distance
touring.
--
K.
Lang may your lum reek.
jim beam
that's a somewhat melodramatic story. and apparently one evidencing a
clueless operator.
1. you can /always/ extract a cable. maybe not all at once, but
definitely strand by strand if all else fails.
2. what's wrong with fedex "next day" service? sure, it costs a little
more, but that wouldn't make for such a dramatic recitation would it.
oh, and next time, preemptively replace all your cables just before you
leave - they're usually good for at least 5k miles, even for guys like
you. use quality cables too - like shimano stainless. no-name cables
don't last as long because the cable draw quality isn't as good so it
fatigues and breaks.
jim beam
bingo! finally, we have a winner.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
New cables before the trip would have prevented that. Changing cables
the moment there is a serious performance degradation in shifting
would to. I've twice (I think, it might be just once) broken STI
cables and both times my shifting had been acting odd for a few rides
before the break.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>1. you can /always/ extract a cable. maybe not all at once, but
>definitely strand by strand if all else fails.
>
It's can be very hard to get the cable end out.
Mike Jacoubowsky
Even Shimano admits that it sometimes simply cannot be done (without
essentially destroying the lever). Not sure where Jim Beam gets his info
from on this one; it certainly isn't from experience with a whole lot of
levers.
What can happen, if all the strands break, is that the remaining jangled
mess of shredded wires prevents the shift lever from clicking back into
the smallest-cog position, which is the only position from which the
cable head may be extracted.
Tom_Sherman
> "Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote
> in message news:f8ke15h8ut07tg7fl...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 22 May 2009 17:30:02 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. you can /always/ extract a cable. maybe not all at once, but
>>> definitely strand by strand if all else fails.
>>>
>> It's can be very hard to get the cable end out.
>
> Even Shimano admits that it sometimes simply cannot be done (without
> essentially destroying the lever). Not sure where Jim Beam gets his info
Working on 2-cycle diesel engines, perhaps? ;)
jim beam
> "Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote
> in message news:f8ke15h8ut07tg7fl...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 22 May 2009 17:30:02 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. you can /always/ extract a cable. maybe not all at once, but
>>> definitely strand by strand if all else fails.
>>>
>> It's can be very hard to get the cable end out.
>
> Even Shimano admits that it sometimes simply cannot be done (without
> essentially destroying the lever). Not sure where Jim Beam gets his info
> from on this one; it certainly isn't from experience with a whole lot of
> levers.
you're right - i only have experience of the ones with broken cable
heads inside.
>
> What can happen, if all the strands break, is that the remaining jangled
> mess of shredded wires prevents the shift lever from clicking back into
> the smallest-cog position, which is the only position from which the
> cable head may be extracted.
i didn't say it was easy. but it's possible. don't any of you guys
have precision cutters or picks?
besides, who lets their shifting deteriorate to that degree anyway? as
stated by others, shift quality deteriorates badly long before the cable
actually breaks.
Frank Krygowski
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>
> > What can happen, if all the strands break, is that the remaining jangled
> > mess of shredded wires prevents the shift lever from clicking back into
> > the smallest-cog position, which is the only position from which the
> > cable head may be extracted.
>
> i didn't say it was easy. but it's possible. don't any of you guys
> have precision cutters or picks?
While on a bike tour??
The shifter requirements are different for racing and for other types
of bike riding, especially long-distance touring.
Use brifters for racing. Use bar end shifters for long-distance
touring...
...and for any other riding where a shift that's (omigod!) a tenth of
a second slower won't destroy your chance of winning some Power Bars.
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
> On May 23, 9:44�am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What can happen, if all the strands break, is that the remaining jangled
>>> mess of shredded wires prevents the shift lever from clicking back into
>>> the smallest-cog position, which is the only position from which the
>>> cable head may be extracted.
>> i didn't say it was easy. �but it's possible. �don't any of you guys
>> have precision cutters or picks?
>
> While on a bike tour??
>
> The shifter requirements are different for racing and for other types
> of bike riding, especially long-distance touring.
>
> Use brifters for racing. Use bar end shifters for long-distance
> touring...
so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
being able to brake and shift at the same time? and tourists, because
they're all freds would never want to stand on the pedals and shift at
the same time? like on a hill? like tourists encounter on occasion?
>
> ...and for any other riding where a shift that's (omigod!) a tenth of
> a second slower won't destroy your chance of winning some Power Bars.
what kind of fucking idiot would NOT replace their control cables before
a long tour???
ah yes, it's
>
> - Frank Krygowski
truly, a fucking idiot's idiot.
Frank Krygowski
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On May 23, 9:44 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> >>> What can happen, if all the strands break, is that the remaining jangled
> >>> mess of shredded wires prevents the shift lever from clicking back into
> >>> the smallest-cog position, which is the only position from which the
> >>> cable head may be extracted.
> >> i didn't say it was easy. but it's possible. don't any of you guys
> >> have precision cutters or picks?
>
> > While on a bike tour??
>
> > The shifter requirements are different for racing and for other types
> > of bike riding, especially long-distance touring.
>
> > Use brifters for racing. Use bar end shifters for long-distance
> > touring...
>
> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
> being able to brake and shift at the same time?
That's valuable in a race. It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
It's a greater benefit to have reliable and repairable shifters and
cables.
> and tourists, because
> they're all freds would never want to stand on the pedals and shift at
> the same time? like on a hill? like tourists encounter on occasion?
You mean like I, and others, do with bar end shifters? That's been
discussed at length. Not that it's a big deal. Astoundingly, people
have ridden across America with (gasp!) downtube shifters!
> > ...and for any other riding where a shift that's (omigod!) a tenth of
> > a second slower won't destroy your chance of winning some Power Bars.
>
> what kind of fucking idiot would NOT replace their control cables before
> a long tour???
Someone smart enough to buy a bike which made that unnecessary.
That's not you, of course.
So jim, what models of precision cutters and picks do _you_ take on
your long tours, to fish out the ends of your broken cables? Please,
give us the benefit of your experience! ;-)
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
> On May 23, 11:25�am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On May 23, 9:44 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>> What can happen, if all the strands break, is that the remaining jangled
>>>>> mess of shredded wires prevents the shift lever from clicking back into
>>>>> the smallest-cog position, which is the only position from which the
>>>>> cable head may be extracted.
>>>> i didn't say it was easy. but it's possible. don't any of you guys
>>>> have precision cutters or picks?
>>> While on a bike tour??
>>> The shifter requirements are different for racing and for other types
>>> of bike riding, especially long-distance touring.
>>> Use brifters for racing. �Use bar end shifters for long-distance
>>> touring...
>> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
>> being able to brake and shift at the same time?
>
> That's valuable in a race. It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
really? that really reveals a lot about your alleged "touring" then.
> It's a greater benefit to have reliable and repairable shifters and
> cables.
ya think???
>
>> �and tourists, because
>> they're all freds would never want to stand on the pedals and shift at
>> the same time? �like on a hill? �like tourists encounter on occasion?
>
> You mean like I, and others, do with bar end shifters? That's been
> discussed at length. Not that it's a big deal. Astoundingly, people
> have ridden across America with (gasp!) downtube shifters!
not that i ever did you fucking idiot. i only ever saw them in museums.
>
>>> ...and for any other riding where a shift that's (omigod!) a tenth of
>>> a second slower won't destroy your chance of winning some Power Bars.
>> what kind of fucking idiot would NOT replace their control cables before
>> a long tour???
>
> Someone smart enough to buy a bike which made that unnecessary.
> That's not you, of course.
you know, you've already revealed two important things.
1. you don't change cables before a "tour". for the sake of <$5.00,
only a fucking idiot would be so tight.
2. you don't really "tour" at all since apparently you don't encounter
hills.
>
> So jim, what models of precision cutters and picks do _you_ take on
> your long tours, to fish out the ends of your broken cables? Please,
> give us the benefit of your experience! ;-)
i don't take them. because i don't break them. because only a fucking
idiot would /not/ change them before a tour. jeepers krygowski, for an
engineering professor, you really don't have much of a fucking clue.
"roll up folks - the great traveling professor krygowski is passing
though our state today! with his spare [steel] frame tubes, welding kit
and spare pedal spindles strapped to his bio-effluent bullshit digestion
trailer, this mechanical engineering genius will share his thoughts on
fatigue prediction and preventive maintenance! yes folks, this mighty
hero, whose former students are ALL working at nasa, boeing and teaching
at mit, will help YOU cycle across america without shifting on hills and
without shifting while braking. $0.05 entry. do not feed the monkeys."
Brian Huntley
> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
> being able to brake and shift at the same time? and tourists, because
> they're all freds would never want to stand on the pedals and shift at
> the same time? like on a hill? like tourists encounter on occasion?
I tour - about a week a year (800 km or so, usually) - and do, indeed,
shift on hills, and even while standing, though a fully loaded bike
has other issues with standing. I do not, however, ever stand and
shift and brake at the same time, as I find braking while going uphill
to be suboptimal. You must ride much faster than I do.
I use barcons, not downtube shifters, which is what Mr. Krygowski was
talking about, by the way. Perhaps you got confused.
jim beam
> On May 23, 11:25�am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
>> being able to brake and shift at the same time? �and tourists, because
>> they're all freds would never want to stand on the pedals and shift at
>> the same time? �like on a hill? �like tourists encounter on occasion?
>
> I tour - about a week a year (800 km or so, usually) - and do, indeed,
> shift on hills, and even while standing, though a fully loaded bike
> has other issues with standing. I do not, however, ever stand and
> shift and brake at the same time, as I find braking while going uphill
> to be suboptimal. You must ride much faster than I do.
coincidentally, neither do i. but i do shift and brake. and i shift
and stand. both function pairs are directly attributable to integrated
shifter/braking function, and those of us who use them are much better
off for them.
>
> I use barcons, not downtube shifters, which is what Mr. Krygowski was
> talking about, by the way. Perhaps you got confused.
or not. see above.
Frank Krygowski
>
> you know, you've already revealed two important things.
>
> 1. you don't change cables before a "tour". for the sake of <$5.00,
> only a fucking idiot would be so tight.
>
> 2. you don't really "tour" at all since apparently you don't encounter
> hills.
Let's see: East to west across Pennsylvania. Didn't change cables
before the trip. No broken cables.
West to East across Ohio. Ditto.
Toronto Canada to Ohio. Ditto.
Around Ireland. Ditto.
England, ditto, I think. That was long ago.
Dozens of other multi-day to week-long trips, ditto.
In fact, the only tour I definitely recall changing cables for was my
one coast-to-coast. And given the reports of STI breaking cables at
about 3000 miles (or worse - one poster said a little over 3200 km)
even that would have been insufficient for that ride.
> > So jim, what models of precision cutters and picks do _you_ take on
> > your long tours, to fish out the ends of your broken cables? Please,
> > give us the benefit of your experience! ;-)
>
> i don't take them. because i don't break them.
Basically, you ride a prissy plastic bike with shifters made out of
wristwatch parts and components that you can't trust further than a
long walk away from a bike shop.
Not that there's anything wrong with that! ;-)
But my bike and I prefer the real world. And on the rare occasions I
do break a cable, it's repairable without dental tools. Your mileage
- and taste - may vary, obviously.
Nice chatting, jim. Don't forget to tap-test your entire frame and
fork before tomorrow's ride.
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Keats
jim beam <m...@privacy.net> writes:
> "roll up folks - the great traveling professor krygowski is passing
> though our state today! with his spare [steel] frame tubes, welding kit
> and spare pedal spindles strapped to his bio-effluent bullshit digestion
> trailer, this mechanical engineering genius will share his thoughts on
> fatigue prediction and preventive maintenance! yes folks, this mighty
> hero, whose former students are ALL working at nasa, boeing and teaching
> at mit, will help YOU cycle across america without shifting on hills and
> without shifting while braking. $0.05 entry. do not feed the monkeys."
You sher take yer brifters seriously.
I could use a bio-effluent bullshit digestion trailer, myself.
Actually, my rhubarb plants could use it.
If the trailer could perform double-duty as a drop spreader,
so much the better.
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
RonSonic
>Brian Huntley wrote:
>> On May 23, 11:25?am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
>>> being able to brake and shift at the same time? ?and tourists, because
>>> they're all freds would never want to stand on the pedals and shift at
>>> the same time? ?like on a hill? ?like tourists encounter on occasion?
>>
>> I tour - about a week a year (800 km or so, usually) - and do, indeed,
>> shift on hills, and even while standing, though a fully loaded bike
>> has other issues with standing. I do not, however, ever stand and
>> shift and brake at the same time, as I find braking while going uphill
>> to be suboptimal. You must ride much faster than I do.
>
>coincidentally, neither do i. but i do shift and brake. and i shift
>and stand. both function pairs are directly attributable to integrated
>shifter/braking function, and those of us who use them are much better
>off for them.
"Better" sure. Much better? really depends on where speed fits as a priority.
Like Jute's automatic shifters, this stuff is only minimally advantageous for a
lot of people.
I've got the brifters, I like 'em. But they don't really change my life or
anything.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
>> being able to brake and shift at the same time?
>
>That's valuable in a race. It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
What about being pleasant to ride? How come lots of people who just
ride for fun seem to like STI? Does that just not matter when on a
long tour? Is it simply toooo risky in your long and arduous tours to
have such a type of equipment.
I'm constantly amazed by the rugged adventures yall have.
> It's a greater benefit to have reliable and repairable shifters and
> cables.
Do you crash a lot on tour? What's smashing all those levers?
I only rode acoss the United States once in my life, before STI, but I
would have loved to have had that. It didnt' seem like that
destructive to bicycles, but I was probably doing it wrong.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
[about integrated braking/shifting]
>Like Jute's automatic shifters, this stuff is only minimally advantageous for a
>lot of people.
When a product is appealing to both the rankest beginners and many of
the most demanding users [racers] it's overall, a very good thing.
YMMV, but the views of a small bunch of people who make absolute
reliability out to be sooo important, are the outlies. So I think the
use of "lot" is misleading in the text above. "Few" would be better.
If you swap your cables the moment shifting gets bad, and you replace
your cables before your adventure in the outback, and don't crash,
there's not much risk at all. If you're touring parts of Africa or
the Yukon, maybe that's too much risk. But a two-week tour in Idaho?
A daily commute?
Come on, get some perspetive.
jim beam
indeed - you're supposed to suffer from riding a piece of inconvenient
crap to make sure it's a real ordeal, not /enjoy/ the experience.
jim beam
idiot.
jim beam
> On Sun, 24 May 2009 02:01:08 -0400, RonSonic
> <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> [about integrated braking/shifting]
>
>> Like Jute's automatic shifters, this stuff is only minimally advantageous for a
>> lot of people.
>
> When a product is appealing to both the rankest beginners and many of
> the most demanding users [racers] it's overall, a very good thing.
>
> YMMV, but the views of a small bunch of people who make absolute
> reliability out to be sooo important, are the outlies.
nice typo.
truth is, there's no reason modern shifters are any less reliable than
old fashioned stuff. the /difference/ is that because the modern stuff
is so much more functional and useful, people /use/ it's function a lot
more. and because it guts are more concealed, they don't "notice" until
things are in a more advanced state. [precisely how someone could not
notice the poor shifting/non-shifting that precedes cable failure is a
mystery to me i confess, but some people are less "sensitive" than others.]
> So I think the
> use of "lot" is misleading in the text above. "Few" would be better.
"any" would be better still. only freds too curmudgeonly to even /try/
them aren't able to take advantage of them, and that is an intellectual
issue, not mechanical.
>
> If you swap your cables the moment shifting gets bad, and you replace
> your cables before your adventure in the outback, and don't crash,
> there's not much risk at all.
if those guys are /so/ worried about reliability, why don't they take
spare frame tube, crank arms and handlebars with them? they all break too.
> If you're touring parts of Africa or
> the Yukon, maybe that's too much risk. But a two-week tour in Idaho?
> A daily commute?
>
> Come on, get some perspetive.
well said.
Nate Nagel
just one guy's perspective...
I went straight from an old Schwinn road frame (Bianchi look-alike) that
was made in probably 1985 at the latest, with downtube non-indexed
shifters (and I believe that the components were mostly transferred from
a friend's contemporary Cannondale road bike, don't even ask me exactly
what they were all these years later) subsequently took a long hiatus
from cycling, then got a couple year old bike with a mix of Shimano
Tiagra and 105 with brifters.
The old bike LOOKED better...
the new bike is a lot more pleasant to ride. In fact, once I got
everything sorted, I'm amazed that I can do stuff like shift under light
power, don't ever have to "trim" the derailleur after switching
chainrings, etc. and of course I don't even have to take my thumbs off
the hoods for anything but signaling. And of course I had to get on
eBay and find myself a Flight Deck just because it's cool. (that is, of
course, completely extraneous to the main goal of getting from here to
there, but also when on a long steep climb, it's neat to be able to
answer questions like "do I have another gear left" without having to
physically look at the cassette. And I believe that it's also helped me
be a better rider as it can be made to display crank RPM once you have
it set up, something I really need to work on.)
It ain't traditional, but even for just tooling around town, it's good
stuff.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
jim beam
which is of course why it dominates the market place - it even works for
freds. but let's not expect the blowhards or nay-sayers to have the
integrity to actually /use/ it or admit that any time soon.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>> YMMV, but the views of a small bunch of people who make absolute
>> reliability out to be sooo important, are the outlies.
>
>nice typo.
Hahaha. Not intentional. Maybe freudian.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>truth is, there's no reason modern shifters are any less reliable than
>old fashioned stuff. the /difference/ is that because the modern stuff
>is so much more functional and useful, people /use/ it's function a lot
>more. and because it guts are more concealed, they don't "notice" until
>things are in a more advanced state. [precisely how someone could not
>notice the poor shifting/non-shifting that precedes cable failure is a
>mystery to me i confess,
Well, it happened to me once or twice before I figured it out. In
hindsight, it's obvious, but the first time it happened to me I had no
clue. Started trying to adjust the derailleur, increase cable tension
etc.
jim beam
wha??? you /learned/ from experience? sorry dude - i think you
stumbled upon the wrong newsgroup.
Frank Krygowski
> >> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
> >> being able to brake and shift at the same time?
>
> >That's valuable in a race. It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
>
> What about being pleasant to ride?
Oddly, I don't need STI to have a pleasant ride.
> How come lots of people who just ride for fun seem to like STI?
It's fine to like something, Johnny. I like riding sixteen pound
bikes, although I don't do it very often. But what's appropriate for
a race or a short recreational ride doesn't necessarily make sense for
a long tour or for utility work.
> I'm constantly amazed by the rugged adventures yall have.
Thanks. You can have them too. First, get the proper bike...
> I only rode acoss the United States once in my life, before STI...
There you go! You did it, and without STI. I'll bet you enjoyed
it.
- Frank Krygowski
Brewster Fong
> It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
> It's a greater benefit to have reliable and repairable shifters and
> cables.
>
I have to agree with this in part. Assuming you don't do any
maintenance before touring, then its probably wise to use bar-end or
even dt shifters. However, if repairability is a factor, what about
Campy Ergo levers? Unlike Shimano STI, Campy ergo levers can be taken
apart and repaired if needed. Unless a cable breaks, you probably
wouldn't need to repair an ergo lever, i.e., replace spring carrier or
g-springs, since any degradataion in shifting would be noticeable and
should be addressed prior to any long tour. Of course, if the Campy
ergo lever broke while touring, you may need additional tools that you
might not have brought.
jim beam
> On May 24, 5:35�am, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 May 2009 18:11:38 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>
>> <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
>>>> being able to brake and shift at the same time?
>>> That's valuable in a race. �It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
>> What about being pleasant to ride?
>
> Oddly, I don't need STI to have a pleasant ride.
you don't need a sense of integrity to pick up a paycheck for fucking up
students careers either.
>
>> �How come lots of people who just ride for fun seem to like STI? �
>
> It's fine to like something, Johnny. I like riding sixteen pound
> bikes, although I don't do it very often. But what's appropriate for
> a race or a short recreational ride doesn't necessarily make sense for
> a long tour or for utility work.
>
>> I'm constantly amazed by the rugged adventures yall have.
>
> Thanks. You can have them too. First, get the proper bike...
>
>> I only rode acoss the United States once in my life, before STI...
>
> There you go! You did it, and without STI. I'll bet you enjoyed
> it.
>
fucking idiot.
jim beam
the important point you're missing is that campy /needs/ repair. unless
abused or crashed, shimano doesn't. while i understand that the new
redesigned 11-speed may be better, the 9/10-speed campy shifter
mechanism has serious design flaws.
Nate Nagel
this prompts a question that I'd been meaning to ask.
would it be a worthwhile exercise to start watching ebay for "good used"
Dura-Ace components that I could swap in to replace the Tiagra on my
bike? or is the difference between the lines mostly weight and not
quality? Are the two even compatible? (e.g. do the brifters and
derailleurs work with each other, or would they have to be swapped as a
package?)
Honestly, the main reason for me wanting to do this is that I have never
ridden a bike with "top of the line" components and just wondered if it
would really make that much difference. That and I believe the Dura-Ace
brifters have a metal small lever while the ones I have are plastic, and
I much prefer the feel of metal, even if I "know" the plastic is
perfectly acceptable.
jim beam
the modern stuff is intercompatible, so no issues there.
as for quality differences, dura-ace is cold forged - as strong and
fatigue resistant as it gets. tiagra i believe to be die-cast
[thixoformed] and while perfectly serviceable, that's not as good.
but all this is academic in the face of the mechanism however.
dura-ace, if not abused [read: forced by a ham-fisted doofus that tries
to press both levers a the same time, encounters the locking "don't do
this" resistance, so ups the force anyway until something goes "snap"]
is the most precise and longest lasting. tiagra's great, but unless
you're a total fred, you'll notice the difference with dura-ace and
enjoy it. question is though - can you get something on ebay that has
not been messed up? i'd do craigslist instead - that way you can try
before you buy.
Mike Jacoubowsky
"Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote
in message news:f25i15lefsfpr37ch...@4ax.com...
STI encourages people to shift more often, which has been proven to be a
factor in global warming. It also encourages lazy highway planning,
because the road folk figure with STI, it's so easy to change gears, you
don't need a warning before the pitch suddenly alters.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
Sure. And it wasn't particularly rough on my equipment, which is the
main point.
I think you just don't like the idea of some new stuff that started in
racing, and you like the idea of that your riding is so rugged and
hard, and you try to justify that with FUD about stuff. It's
dishonest.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>Brewster Fong wrote:
>> On May 23, 6:11?pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ?It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
What is is about bike touring that is so rugged and destructive to
bikes? I guess if you're in the outback, or maybe are touring with
your bike thrown on trains and the tops of buses in Europe or India or
something, stuff can get messed up.
But I don't understand how riding for a few weeks on roads is so risky
to bike parts. Can you explain that for us?
I ride my bike in non-touring situations and my bike isn't cracking up
all the time. Does weight on panniers mess up the shift levers?
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>would it be a worthwhile exercise to start watching ebay for "good used"
>Dura-Ace components that I could swap in to replace the Tiagra on my
>bike?
No, unless your Tiagra is totally shot.
>or is the difference between the lines mostly weight and not
>quality?
There is so much uncertaintly in used that you could easily get
something worse than what you have.
Dan O
Doesn't have to matter what you're doing. Simplicity of design is
always desirable. This is a big part of what bicycling is all about.
Bolting on unnecessary complexity tends to push the experience in a
different direction.
jim beam
do you use gears? or chain drive? or pneumatic tires?
RonSonic
>Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 May 2009 02:01:08 -0400, RonSonic
>> <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> [about integrated braking/shifting]
>>
>>> Like Jute's automatic shifters, this stuff is only minimally advantageous for a
>>> lot of people.
>>
>> When a product is appealing to both the rankest beginners and many of
>> the most demanding users [racers] it's overall, a very good thing.
>>
>> YMMV, but the views of a small bunch of people who make absolute
>> reliability out to be sooo important, are the outlies.
>
>nice typo.
>
>truth is, there's no reason modern shifters are any less reliable than
>old fashioned stuff.
Of course there is. Lots more parts, small, precision parts that do ratchety
spring loaded things at that. Doesn't negate the rest of your paragraph, but
this is one of those "difference between theory and practice" things. Which in
case you didn't know is that in theory there is no difference.
>the /difference/ is that because the modern stuff
>is so much more functional and useful, people /use/ it's function a lot
>more. and because it guts are more concealed, they don't "notice" until
>things are in a more advanced state. [precisely how someone could not
>notice the poor shifting/non-shifting that precedes cable failure is a
>mystery to me i confess, but some people are less "sensitive" than others.]
Of course it is those "less sensitive" types who have more trouble with old
school shifters.
jim beam
> On Sun, 24 May 2009 06:50:54 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 May 2009 02:01:08 -0400, RonSonic
>>> <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [about integrated braking/shifting]
>>>
>>>> Like Jute's automatic shifters, this stuff is only minimally advantageous for a
>>>> lot of people.
>>> When a product is appealing to both the rankest beginners and many of
>>> the most demanding users [racers] it's overall, a very good thing.
>>>
>>> YMMV, but the views of a small bunch of people who make absolute
>>> reliability out to be sooo important, are the outlies.
>> nice typo.
>>
>> truth is, there's no reason modern shifters are any less reliable than
>> old fashioned stuff.
>
> Of course there is. Lots more parts, small, precision parts that do ratchety
> spring loaded things at that. Doesn't negate the rest of your paragraph, but
> this is one of those "difference between theory and practice" things. Which in
> case you didn't know is that in theory there is no difference.
i don't agree. apart from campy which sucked and kept breaking, small
shimano doesn't mean it will break. it's not like the mechanism is that
complicated. and it's not like old school downtube shifters didn't have
issues like slipping and sticking and wearing.
>
>> the /difference/ is that because the modern stuff
>> is so much more functional and useful, people /use/ it's function a lot
>> more. and because it guts are more concealed, they don't "notice" until
>> things are in a more advanced state. [precisely how someone could not
>> notice the poor shifting/non-shifting that precedes cable failure is a
>> mystery to me i confess, but some people are less "sensitive" than others.]
>
> Of course it is those "less sensitive" types who have more trouble with old
> school shifters.
wow, you're a real relic! i remember old farts trying to argue that
only freds would use index shifting because they didn't have the skill
to shift like /real/ riders...
RobertH
wrote:
> "Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote
> in messagenews:f25i15lefsfpr37ch...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 23 May 2009 18:11:38 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> so, tourists, because they're all freds, never enjoy the benefits of
> >>> being able to brake and shift at the same time?
>
> >>That's valuable in a race. It just doesn't matter on a long tour.
>
> > What about being pleasant to ride? How come lots of people who just
> > ride for fun seem to like STI? Does that just not matter when on a
> > long tour? Is it simply toooo risky in your long and arduous tours to
> > have such a type of equipment.
>
> > I'm constantly amazed by the rugged adventures yall have.
>
> >> It's a greater benefit to have reliable and repairable shifters and
> >> cables.
>
> > Do you crash a lot on tour? What's smashing all those levers?
>
> > I only rode acoss the United States once in my life, before STI, but I
> > would have loved to have had that. It didnt' seem like that
> > destructive to bicycles, but I was probably doing it wrong.
>
> STI encourages people to shift more often, which has been proven to be a
> factor in global warming. It also encourages lazy highway planning,
> because the road folk figure with STI, it's so easy to change gears, you
> don't need a warning before the pitch suddenly alters.
In all seriousness I find STI/Ergo to be an important safety feature
for traffic cycling. They keep your hands not only on the bars but on
the brake levers while shifting.
Overall I find them to be more convenient and enjoyable for all types
of riding. I have a pair of STIs with about 40,000 miles, the plastic
covers have been smashed off on both sides, the cables have never
snapped (replaced only once or twice in that time), and although they
no longer work flawlessly they work well.
Jay Beattie
I put far more miles on my bike in a year than the 3-4K of a tour
across the United States. My STI hasn't broken, and it has seen worse
weather than one would see on a summer tour.
But some claim that in the unlikely event that an STI lever were to
break, they would be stranded in Timbuktu (where, apparently all
touring is done). They also fear riding aluminum frames for the same
reason, since the natives invariably have gas welding outfits and can
fix steel frames but lack electricity for a TIG torch and a heat
treating oven. This odd fear fails to account for the fact that the
natives probably don't have 9sp chains, pedals, seat post bolts,
spokes, cranks or any of the things that have actually broken while I
was on a tour. If they did, then they would have an STI lever or at
least on old DT shifter to get one back to civilization.-- Jay Beattie.
RonSonic
The biggest thing, it seems to me, is that tourists are far more intolerant of
mechanical failure than other cyclists. I don't know how much of that is a
different mindset, but part of it is obviously practical. Just knowing that we
can park a balky bike and ride something else or fix it with all of our tools,
facilities and parts at hand makes it less important. Riding a bike makes up a
smaller portion of our day than it does for any tourist so even a minor problem
becomes an all day annoyance for them.
I don't know if loaded pannier mess up shift levers beyond requiring that they
get used more and probably dropped more. But it does mean that a failure to
shift is a bigger problem.
Whatever the reasons, cyclo-tourists are very failure averse. I'm inclined to
not disagree with them about it. I haven't toured by bike, but the travelling I
have done tells me that anything that goes wrong on the road is far worse than
at home.
RonSonic
Never saw the need for the clicky shifters on road bikes. And of course they
really were pretty much useless except as an evolutionary step that permitted
brifters. Just because I'm honest enough to admit that they cannot possibly be
as reliable as friction, don't think I don't enjoy the things.
Dan O
Yes, and I consider them necessary.
(Thumb shifters are Linux; trigger shifters are Windows ;-)
Tom Keats
Jay Beattie <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> writes:
> But some claim that in the unlikely event that an STI lever were to
> break, they would be stranded in Timbuktu (where, apparently all
> touring is done).
At least one could poke around there for King Solomon's mines
while being stuck there.
With my luck, I'd end up stranded in Tuktoyaktuk and end up
having to fashion a shifting mechanism out of seal sinews,
walrus tusks and caribou antlers.
Actually, a lot of excellent metalwork is performed in
Saharan Africa.
I recall reading an account of an early aviator who crash landed
in Greenland, and had to whittle a whole new propellor with his
pocket knife. It was a fascinating story. I should look it up.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
Tom Sherman °_°
> In article <d2ba315a-01fa-4791...@d38g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> Jay Beattie <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> writes:
>
>> But some claim that in the unlikely event that an STI lever were to
>> break, they would be stranded in Timbuktu (where, apparently all
>> touring is done).
>
> At least one could poke around there for King Solomon's mines
In many areas of the world, one could poke around for land mines. :(
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
Jay Beattie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hope you got your simple bike out for a ride today, Dan O. It was
glorious on the Gorge, and the cyclists were out in flocks -- which
actually made the climb out from Multnomah Falls back up to Crown
Point a bit dicey because I had to get around the cars that were stuck
behind the groups of duffers spread out across the road. Lots of wild
flowers. -- Jay Beattie.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>Never saw the need for the clicky shifters on road bikes. And of course they
>really were pretty much useless except as an evolutionary step that permitted
>brifters. Just because I'm honest enough to admit that they cannot possibly be
>as reliable as friction, don't think I don't enjoy the things.
I went from friction shifting to STI really fast -- with just a few
months on index shifting. It seemed to me that the best possible* set
up of downtube friction shifting was 98% as good as index, or possibly
even better. But index shifting brought along advances in shifting in
general - better cog profiles, chains and cable housing.
* I was using Simplex retrofriction levers with Shimano derailleurs,
cassettes and chains and good cables/housing, and that stuff worked
great. When I switched to index downtube shifters it didn't seem much
better.
RonSonic
Pretty much my experience. I'd already learned to shift.
Frank Krygowski
<usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
> What is is about bike touring that is so rugged and destructive to
> bikes? I guess if you're in the outback, or maybe are touring with
> your bike thrown on trains and the tops of buses in Europe or India or
> something, stuff can get messed up.
>
> But I don't understand how riding for a few weeks on roads is so risky
> to bike parts. Can you explain that for us?
For the most part, it's not the risk of failure so much as the
consequences. But the risk of failure probably goes up as well. To
deal with that first, if you're doing anything more extreme than
credit card touring, you'll have more weight on tires, rims, spokes
and frame. You're more likely to have to grind through some shifts,
because you'll be on unfamiliar and sometimes very hilly terrain.
You'll be using your brakes more and harder on downhills. You'll be
hitting potholes and bumps harder, because you won't be able to jump
the bike. Surely you get the idea.
But as I said, it's more the consequences. Yes, I've been touring on
gravel roads and literally didn't know where to find another human
being; there may not have been one for 20 miles or more. But even
riding across (say) rural Indiana, you can be in a place where the
nearest "bike shop" is 30 miles away, and is actually a tractor dealer
that also sells a few bike tires, patch kits, and brake blocks if
you're lucky. It's not where you want to ask about repairing an STI
unit.
- Frank Krygowski
Michael Press
<d0355de4-c82f-47f8...@x31g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
RobertH <r15...@aol.com> wrote:
Riding in traffic I stay in one gear.
Typically 50/17. That way I am never in the wrong gear.
Starting from a traffic stop is a matter of anticipating
the green light slightly. The higher gear means the crank
is turning slowly enough that clicking in the loose shoe
is simplicity itself.
--
Michael Press
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 24, 1:11�pm, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>
>> What is is about bike touring that is so rugged and destructive to
>> bikes? �I guess if you're in the outback, or maybe are touring with
>> your bike thrown on trains and the tops of buses in Europe or India or
>> something, stuff can get messed up.
>>
>> But I don't understand how riding for a few weeks on roads is so risky
>> to bike parts. �Can you explain that for us?
>
>For the most part, it's not the risk of failure so much as the
>consequences. But the risk of failure probably goes up as well. To
>deal with that first, if you're doing anything more extreme than
>credit card touring, you'll have more weight on tires, rims, spokes
>and frame. You're more likely to have to grind through some shifts,
>because you'll be on unfamiliar and sometimes very hilly terrain.
>You'll be using your brakes more and harder on downhills.
And that's going to mess up your braking???.
Have STI levers ever failed in ways that hurt the braking?
Or bust your shifting. Seems like FUD to me. Any evidence for that?
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>You're more likely to have to grind through some shifts,
>because you'll be on unfamiliar and sometimes very hilly terrain.
>You'll be using your brakes more and harder on downhills. You'll be
>hitting potholes and bumps harder, because you won't be able to jump
>the bike. Surely you get the idea.
Wow, I thought touring was all mellow but now it sounds like hard
demanding riding, slamming potholes and suddenly needing to brake or
shift with no warning.
Strange that it sounds like you'll suddenly need to shift and/or
brake, yet having shifting and braking controlled from the same lever
isn't useful at all. Sounds....mixed up.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>You'll be
>hitting potholes and bumps harder, because you won't be able to jump
>the bike.
At first I didn't understand what hitting potholes had to do with
shift/brake levers failing. I mean, I'd imagine that when doing loaded
touring you'd need strong wheels and tires, but why shift levers and
brake levers?
But I thought about it a bit more and it makes sense. Similarly to
the way that road rash is a pretty common cycling injury, we should
always wear a helmet when riding. Yeah, it makes sense.
Frank Krygowski
I'm amazed that someone can be so insistent that racers NEED,
absolutely NEED the very best equipment for the job, yet think that
long distance tourists should get by with delicate racing stuff!
Being stranded on a deserted, unfamiliar road is a lot worse than
losing a Power Bar prize because your competitor's water bottle was
more aerodynamic!
Hell, I was once on a highway in Wyoming when I came across a guy
heading the opposite direction on a supported tour, riding with just a
seat bag. You'd have loved his wheels - new and fashionable, absolute
minimum spoke count, bladed spokes, aero rims, the whole bit.
Unfortunately, his rear wheel had popped a spoke. With my help
(because he was absolutely clueless) we barely got his brake to clear
the wobbling rim; but there was no hope any of my spare spokes would
fit. And since I'd visited the bike shop in the town he was heading
for, I knew there was little hope they'd have a matching spoke
either. I later wondered how long it took him to get out of town, and
what wheel he was riding.
There are times it doesn't make sense to save 150 grams in your
wheels, or save 3/10 second per shift. There are times it's more
important to have a bike that's ultra reliable and that you can fix
with the handful of tools you carry - which, by the way, should not
have to include dental picks and precision clippers.
- Frank Krygowski
Michael Press
jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 May 2009 02:01:08 -0400, RonSonic
> > <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > [about integrated braking/shifting]
> >
> >> Like Jute's automatic shifters, this stuff is only minimally advantageous for a
> >> lot of people.
> >
> > When a product is appealing to both the rankest beginners and many of
> > the most demanding users [racers] it's overall, a very good thing.
> >
> > YMMV, but the views of a small bunch of people who make absolute
> > reliability out to be sooo important, are the outlies.
>
> nice typo.
>
> truth is, there's no reason modern shifters are any less reliable than
> old fashioned stuff.
Actually there is. For a start on the nine cogwheel click shift
bike there is exactly 28 cm of shifter cable housing.
I _never_ had a down tube shifter fail.
DT shifter cables wear so slowly that replacing them
is a symptom of OCD.
--
Michael Press
Frank Krygowski
John, you asked how touring was harder on bike parts. You didn't
specify _just_ shifters, so I didn't limit my response to _just_
shifters.
I'm not going to follow you down a rabbit warren of ever-changing
arguments. If you think a 20 speed, 16 pound carbon fiber wonder is
just fine for loaded touring, go ahead and give it a try. I'll
suggest some routes, if you like. Report back after a few thousand
miles.
- Frank Krygowski
Dan O
It is super nice out, all right, but I've only had a ride to the store
and back, followed the kids and "raced" them around the nearby church
parking lot, and practiced my wheelies a little (flipped right onto my
back once). SImple cycling, yeah - what it is :-)
Of course I'd already put in like 270 miles this (last) week just
riding back-and-forth to work. Mornings are *so* much better now -
not so dark and cold and wet (although I did get plenty of rain one
day, and another with temps still in the thirtys). Wildflowers,
yeah. The birds are nesting, too. I can tell 'cause they chase after
and squawk at me to stay away.
Jay Beattie
Some eastern Oregon counties have populations of less than one person
per square mile, and having another town as close as 20 miles away
would be considered over-crowding. BTW, we have more ghost towns than
any state in the Union. You could easily ride most of a day from one
populated town to the next in Harney county, among others. With that
said, breaking an STI lever would be the least of your troubles -- at
least you would have two gears, and if you were resourceful enough to
pack a 2oz Campy DT shifter from your trashbin of old parts, then you
would only be out about ten minutes of work. Personally, I would be
more afraid of breaking a crank or a pedal -- all things I have done
on tours or long rides. And if you are really humping around a lot of
gear, then watch for those itty bitty pawls in your freehub. I wonder
how many people blow up their freehub bodies.-- Jay Beattie.
Jay Beattie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Gawdamighty, that's a hell of a lot of commute miles. Do you ride in
to Eugene everyday or something? -- Jay Beattie.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>Actually there is. For a start on the nine cogwheel click shift
>bike there is exactly 28 cm of shifter cable housing.
>I _never_ had a down tube shifter fail.
I did. Broken spring in a Simplex Retrofriction shifter. The lever
was waay old, so didn't bother me that much. Was annoying on that
ride though.
Not to mention continuous semi-failure in lame Campy levers that
didn't work well frm the get-go
>DT shifter cables wear so slowly that replacing them
>is a symptom of OCD.
I had cables fray once every couple years and replaced them when that
happened.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 24, 1:07�pm, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 May 2009 07:55:41 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>>
>> <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 24, 5:35�am, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>> ><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> I only rode acoss the United States once in my life, before STI...
>>
>> >There you go! �You did it, and without STI. �I'll bet you enjoyed
>> >it.
>>
>> Sure. And it wasn't particularly rough on my equipment, which is the
>> main point.
>>
>> I think you just don't like the idea of some new stuff that started in
>> racing, and you like the idea of that your riding is so rugged and
>> hard, and you try to justify that with FUD about stuff. �It's
>> dishonest.
>
>I'm amazed that someone can be so insistent that racers NEED,
>absolutely NEED the very best equipment for the job, yet think that
>long distance tourists should get by with delicate racing stuff!
I'm amazed that you think all STI is racing stuff.
>Being stranded on a deserted, unfamiliar road is a lot worse than
>losing a Power Bar prize because your competitor's water bottle was
>more aerodynamic!
Stranded? If you can't get the perfect gear you're stranded. Can't
ride at all? Can't put the derailleur in a usuable gear and lock it
out to that with a small screwdriver.
Wow, I did not know about that.
But FUD is FUD. I'm amazed you don't use solid tubes and carry a
spare rear wheel. Hey, you never know.
>Unfortunately, his rear wheel had popped a spoke. With my help
>(because he was absolutely clueless) we barely got his brake to clear
>the wobbling rim; but there was no hope any of my spare spokes would
>fit. And since I'd visited the bike shop in the town he was heading
>for, I knew there was little hope they'd have a matching spoke
>either. I later wondered how long it took him to get out of town, and
>what wheel he was riding.
Yeah, because some wheels are too light it makes sense to worry about
STI breaking. Yeah, makes sense.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 24, 7:39嚙緘m, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 May 2009 16:30:07 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>>
>> <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 24, 1:11嚙緘m, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>> ><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> What is is about bike touring that is so rugged and destructive to
>> >> bikes? 嚙瘢 guess if you're in the outback, or maybe are touring with
>> >> your bike thrown on trains and the tops of buses in Europe or India or
>> >> something, stuff can get messed up.
>>
>> >> But I don't understand how riding for a few weeks on roads is so risky
>> >> to bike parts. 嚙瘠an you explain that for us?
>>
>> >For the most part, it's not the risk of failure so much as the
>> >consequences. 嚙畿ut the risk of failure probably goes up as well. 嚙確o
>> >deal with that first, if you're doing anything more extreme than
>> >credit card touring, you'll have more weight on tires, rims, spokes
>> >and frame. 嚙磐ou're more likely to have to grind through some shifts,
>> >because you'll be on unfamiliar and sometimes very hilly terrain.
>> >You'll be using your brakes more and harder on downhills.
>>
>> And that's going to mess up your braking???.
>>
>> Have STI levers ever failed in ways that hurt the braking?
>>
>> Or bust your shifting. 嚙磅eems like FUD to me. 嚙璀ny evidence for that?
>
>John, you asked how touring was harder on bike parts. You didn't
>specify _just_ shifters, so I didn't limit my response to _just_
>shifters.
Accurate but lame response. You score one our a possible five stars
with that one.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you think a 20 speed, 16 pound carbon fiber wonder is
>just fine for loaded touring, go ahead and give it a try.
The discussion is clearly about STI/Ergo, If you want to change the
subject to wheels and then build up a straw man as if some of us are
claiming touring should be done on super light wheel, go ahead.
But that sort of straw man comment is a plain admission admitted you
have no basis for your FUD about STI/Ergo being risky..
Thanks for clearing that up.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> With that
>said, breaking an STI lever would be the least of your troubles -- at
>least you would have two gears,
Or three if it was the rear STI that broke and you were on a touring
bike. Or seven to nineish if the front STI broke.
carl...@comcast.net
<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>Some eastern Oregon counties have populations of less than one person
>per square mile, and having another town as close as 20 miles away
>would be considered over-crowding. BTW, we have more ghost towns than
>any state in the Union.
Dear Jay,
Interesting--any idea why?
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Dan O
> On Sun, 24 May 2009 17:23:29 -0700 (PDT), Jay Beattie
>
> >Some eastern Oregon counties have populations of less than one person
> >per square mile, and having another town as close as 20 miles away
> >would be considered over-crowding. BTW, we have more ghost towns than
> >any state in the Union.
>
> Dear Jay,
>
> Interesting--any idea why?
>
Because it turns out that paradise really was just over the next
mountain range, after all.
Dan O
> On May 24, 5:07 pm, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 24, 2:49 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 24, 10:54 am, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On May 24, 2:45 am, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>
>
> > > > > [about integrated braking/shifting]
>
>
> > > > Doesn't have to matter what you're doing. Simplicity of design is
> > > > always desirable. This is a big part of what bicycling is all about.
> > > > Bolting on unnecessary complexity tends to push the experience in a
> > > > different direction.
>
> > > Hope you got your simple bike out for a ride today, Dan O. It was
> > > glorious...
>
> > It is super nice out, all right, but I've only had a ride to the store
> > and back, followed the kids and "raced" them around the nearby church
> > parking lot, and practiced my wheelies a little...
>
> > Of course I'd already put in like 270 miles this (last) week just
> > riding back-and-forth to work.
>
> Gawdamighty, that's a hell of a lot of commute miles. Do you ride in
> to Eugene everyday or something?
Something like that (I'm reluctant to publish my route on the
internet). Anyway it's 27 miles from my home to work. Yes, it's a
lot of riding. Lucky, aren't I? :-)
carl...@comcast.net
mmm . . . I'm beginning to wonder if someone was pulling Jay's leg.
Oregon lists only 52 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Oregon
That's more than Minnesota, which lists only 49 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Minnesota
But Colorado ties at 52 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Colorado
California lists 72 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_California
Michigan lists 103 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Michigan
Utah lists 105 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Utah
Florida lists 139 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Florida
Oklahoma lists 206 ghost towns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Oklahoma
Texas lists . . . oh, for crying out loud, two columns! Looks like
around 380 Texas ghost towns are listed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_Texas
Those are incomplete lists of US ghost towns, but Orgeon seems to be
behind California, Michigan, Utah, Florida, Oklahoma, and Texas.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Jay Beattie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dude, I've been totally lied to, http://www.50states.com/facts/oregon.htm
I wonder where the author got the stat. Anyway, we have some ghost
towns! Plus, Michigan ghost towns? Are they counting Detroit? -- Jay
Beattie.
Mike Jacoubowsky
>> of riding. I have a pair of STIs with about 40,000 miles, the plastic
>> covers have been smashed off on both sides, the cables have never
>> snapped (replaced only once or twice in that time), and although they
>> no longer work flawlessly they work well.
>
> Riding in traffic I stay in one gear.
> Typically 50/17. That way I am never in the wrong gear.
> Starting from a traffic stop is a matter of anticipating
> the green light slightly. The higher gear means the crank
> is turning slowly enough that clicking in the loose shoe
> is simplicity itself.
Y'know, there's a fix(ie) for that problem...
> --
> Michael Press
--
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-924B2F....@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
carl...@comcast.net
>Dude, I've been totally lied to, http://www.50states.com/facts/oregon.htm
>I wonder where the author got the stat. Anyway, we have some ghost
>towns! Plus, Michigan ghost towns? Are they counting Detroit? -- Jay
>Beattie.
Dear Jay,
For sure!
And things get even uglier!
"Eugene was the first city to have one-way streets."
http://www.50states.com/facts/oregon.htm
Maybe Eugene was the first city in Oregon to have one-way streets?
"The first one-way street was created in New York City, 1791."
http://www.aboutfamouspeople.com/article1224.html
Anyway, Eugene has some one-way streets.
Me, I was startled by the idea of Florida ghost towns.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
RonSonic
I looked at the list for Florida briefly and recognized two. Port Tampa is now a
neighborhood within the City of Tampa having been swallowed up and incorporated.
That's one we can strike off the list right away. I see a Pembroke, FL on the
list but as far as I know it exists in Central Florida about 50 miles Southeast
of me. It may also have been incorporated into another municipality.
As far as I'm concerned that does not a ghost town make. A real ghost town in
Florida will have been overtaken by the flora.
Michael Press
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> >> Overall I find them to be more convenient and enjoyable for all types
> >> of riding. I have a pair of STIs with about 40,000 miles, the plastic
> >> covers have been smashed off on both sides, the cables have never
> >> snapped (replaced only once or twice in that time), and although they
> >> no longer work flawlessly they work well.
> >
> > Riding in traffic I stay in one gear.
> > Typically 50/17. That way I am never in the wrong gear.
> > Starting from a traffic stop is a matter of anticipating
> > the green light slightly. The higher gear means the crank
> > is turning slowly enough that clicking in the loose shoe
> > is simplicity itself.
>
> Y'know, there's a fix(ie) for that problem...
I'm a freewheelin' kind o' guy.
--
Michael Press
jim beam
> On Sun, 24 May 2009 12:24:17 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> RonSonic wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 May 2009 06:50:54 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 24 May 2009 02:01:08 -0400, RonSonic
>>>>> <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [about integrated braking/shifting]
>>>>>
>>>>>> Like Jute's automatic shifters, this stuff is only minimally advantageous for a
>>>>>> lot of people.
>>>>> When a product is appealing to both the rankest beginners and many of
>>>>> the most demanding users [racers] it's overall, a very good thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> YMMV, but the views of a small bunch of people who make absolute
>>>>> reliability out to be sooo important, are the outlies.
>>>>
>>>> truth is, there's no reason modern shifters are any less reliable than
>>>> old fashioned stuff.
>>> spring loaded things at that. Doesn't negate the rest of your paragraph, but
>>> this is one of those "difference between theory and practice" things. Which in
>>> case you didn't know is that in theory there is no difference.
>> i don't agree. apart from campy which sucked and kept breaking, small
>> shimano doesn't mean it will break. it's not like the mechanism is that
>> complicated. and it's not like old school downtube shifters didn't have
>> issues like slipping and sticking and wearing.
>>
>>
>>>> the /difference/ is that because the modern stuff
>>>> is so much more functional and useful, people /use/ it's function a lot
>>>> more. and because it guts are more concealed, they don't "notice" until
>>>> things are in a more advanced state. [precisely how someone could not
>>>> notice the poor shifting/non-shifting that precedes cable failure is a
>>>> mystery to me i confess, but some people are less "sensitive" than others.]
>>> Of course it is those "less sensitive" types who have more trouble with old
>>> school shifters.
>> wow, you're a real relic! i remember old farts trying to argue that
>> only freds would use index shifting because they didn't have the skill
>> to shift like /real/ riders...
>
> Never saw the need for the clicky shifters on road bikes. And of course they
> really were pretty much useless except as an evolutionary step that permitted
> brifters. Just because I'm honest enough to admit that they cannot possibly be
> as reliable as friction,
er, that's not right.
> don't think I don't enjoy the things.
mere dislike doesn't give you license to be technically inaccurate.
jim beam
don't read r.b.t much then? or selective memory?
friction shifter problems are regularly asked. more frequently than
shimano index shifter questions lately it seems.
> DT shifter cables wear so slowly that replacing them
> is a symptom of OCD.
how many things /do/ wear when not being used?
jim beam
well said - especially for pointing out krygowski's fundamental
dishonesty. you did however forget to point to point out that krygowski
is also a fucking idiot, so you only get 9 points, not 10.
Sandlin
> In rec.bicycles.misc Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
> > No, but with downtube shifters it's obvious when the cable is fraying
> > since they are exposed. With STI at least, the ends of the cables are
> > hidden, so you have to make explicity release the housing to create
> > some slack so you can see the end. Which lots of people don't do - so
> > they get caught with a broken cable on the road.
>
> I had a shift cable snap one time in the middle of a tour, 1100km from
> home. It snapped right at the cable end. The cable end got stuck
> inside the brifter. I *could not* get it out. The jammed cable end
> with attached frayed wire wouldn't allow the brifter to ratchet back to
> the position where I could get it out. Brifters busted because of a
> stuck cable end.
>
> I had to convert my bike to a 1-speed to make it to the next town
> (Houston, British Columbia, pop. 3300) I was stranded there for the
> next four days waiting for a set of bar-end shifters to be couriered
> to me from Vancouver. There were no road bike parts to be found up
> there anywhere!
>
> Since then, nothing but bar-end shifters for me for long distance
> touring.
>
> --
> K.
>
> Lang may your lum reek.
Reply:
"Since then, nothing but bar-end shifters for me for long distance
touring. "
I too have learned to use the formula KISS, Keep It Simple
Stupid. Bar end shifters fit that category. Actually, friction
shifters have served me well too. STIs are great for organized rides
with SAGs and short, fast rides, but on the long haul, make it easy on
yourself and use equipment that makes repairs on the spot possible and
easy.
Sandy B.
Richard Riley
My bike fell over and the bar end shifter snapped. They also used to get
stuck in wire mesh when I lent my loaded bike against wire
fencing. Fixing was not possible. My ergolevers have proved a lot more
reliable. So I guess experiences vary. I would not swap my campag ergos
for all the tea in china.
jim beam
pretzel logic - only use bar ends for touring, therefore bar ends are
proven reliable!
Nate Nagel
I never understood bar end shifters... if you're going to that
"sacrifice" why not just use DT shifters? They don't really seem any
less convenient, to me - and less likely to get bashed around when you
lean your bike against a wall to grab a coffee or something.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Richard Riley
Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net> writes:
> Sandlin wrote:
Another issue is that ergos are SO much easer to use when climbing a
hill with a loaded touring bike than either down tube or bar ends
(admittedly I ride with my hands on the lever hood). After I lost my
false ideas about the ratchet mechanism being somehow "weak" or failure
prone I can honestly say that they seem a lot more reliable and safe
from accidental damage than bar ends or DT.
jim beam
absolutely.
> (admittedly I ride with my hands on the lever hood). After I lost my
> false ideas about the ratchet mechanism being somehow "weak" or failure
> prone I can honestly say that they seem a lot more reliable and safe
> from accidental damage than bar ends or DT.
>
so true. but the fredly idiots that don't actually /use/ this new
fangled technology don't let lack of experience get in the way of their
having an opinion!