Tour Feminin news

[AMuzi]

Ms Weibes leads, spectacular crash:

https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/sport/insolite/enorme-chute-collective-sur-le-tour-feminin-1319194.html--


https://www.7sur7.be/cyclisme/lotte-kopecky-repond-aux-railleries-sur-les-nombreuses-chutes-lors-du-tour-feminin~a3012916/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com

https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-feminin-une-terrible-chute-jette-une-cinquantaine-de-coureuses-a-terre-lors-de-la-5-e-etape-20220728

Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 7:19:58 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> Ms Weibes leads, spectacular crash:
>
> https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/sport/insolite/enorme-chute-collective-sur-le-tour-feminin-1319194.html--
>
>
> https://www.7sur7.be/cyclisme/lotte-kopecky-repond-aux-railleries-sur-les-nombreuses-chutes-lors-du-tour-feminin~a3012916/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com
>
> https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-feminin-une-terrible-chute-jette-une-cinquantaine-de-coureuses-a-terre-lors-de-la-5-e-etape-20220728

I expect that Flunky and Seaton were in the thick of it. Perhaps they could teach racing like Krygowski taught engineering

[Lou Holtman]

I’m following the live coverage of the Tour Feminin and saw some very weird crashes also in todays stage.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Riding with my step daughters and a couple of 8 year old girls of one of the group, they FAR excelled at climbing. But there doesn't seem to be much climbing in the Tour la Femm. I wonder why that is.

I just watched the crash in stage 5 and it was pretty plain that the women simply do not have the training that the men have. While touching wheels could happen anywhere the men seldom have huge pileups like that. The yellow, white and green jerseys were near the front and were not involved,. I am pretty sure the polka dots missed as well.

Since women are far more likely to break bones seriously, I think that climbing is more in their line.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Please Doctor Tommy, tell us why this is. Do women have more or less calcium or potassium or whatever other minerals are in bones than men? Does the chemical makeup of women's bones differ from the chemical makeup of men's bones? Thus leading to more fragile bones. I am aware that men and women have slightly different chemical makeups. Estrogen, testosterone, etc. are different levels in men and women. But does this affect bone strength?

[Jeff Liebermann]

Methinks Tom may have misread an article on osteoporosis. For
example:

"Gender Disparities in Osteoporosis"
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380170/>
"Osteoporosis is four times more common in women than in men..."

The problem is that osteoporosis is primarily a problem with older men
and women. Bicycle racers, both male and female, are young enough
that it will probably be 30 years before the first hint of bone loss
appears. If le Tour féminin race was among seniors:
"2023 National Senior Games"
<https://nsga.com/cycling/>
then Tom might have a point, but not for younger racers.

"Mayo Clinic - Osteoporosis"
<https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/osteoporosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20351968>
I suggest you read the section on "Risk Factors".

>> I think that climbing is more in their line.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

On 7/29/2022 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:46:59 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 4:19:58 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Ms Weibes leads, spectacular crash:
>>>
>>> https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/sport/insolite/enorme-chute-collective-sur-le-tour-feminin-1319194.html--
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.7sur7.be/cyclisme/lotte-kopecky-repond-aux-railleries-sur-les-nombreuses-chutes-lors-du-tour-feminin~a3012916/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com
>>>
>>> https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-feminin-une-terrible-chute-jette-une-cinquantaine-de-coureuses-a-terre-lors-de-la-5-e-etape-20220728
>>>
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>> I’m following the live coverage of the Tour Feminin and saw some very weird crashes also in todays stage.

>
> Riding with my step daughters and a couple of 8 year old girls of one of the group, they FAR excelled at climbing. But there doesn't seem to be much climbing in the Tour la Femm. I wonder why that is.
>
> I just watched the crash in stage 5 and it was pretty plain that the women simply do not have the training that the men have. While touching wheels could happen anywhere the men seldom have huge pileups like that. The yellow, white and green jerseys were near the front and were not involved,. I am pretty sure the polka dots missed as well.
>
> Since women are far more likely to break bones seriously, I think that climbing is more in their line.
>

'not much climbing' ?

TDFF officials have taken your criticism to heart:

https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/the-rouleur-journal/tour-de-france-femmes-2022-stage-seven-preview-the-real-climbing-begins

--

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I've only gotten to stage 5 and to tell you the truth, the courses have been embarrassingly easy.

[Lou Holtman]

Embarrassingly easy? WTF. You could not hold their wheel for 10 km. Stage of 175 km, average speed 40+ km/hr, two mountain stages with 2500 - 3000 m of climbing. That was a stupid remark, one of many.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Of course I couldn't. I'm 77 years old and not a pro. The MEN'S TdF averaged 3 mph faster and most of these women could not hold the wheels of those guys riding EASY. all of this aside from the fact that women has thinner and more brittle bone structure and tend to ride easier for that reason. Now women CAN probably climb as fast as men Pro's. In my experience women climbed at least as fast as the very best men. But to this point I haven't seen any really trying women/s course though Andrew did being Stage 6 to my attention. But even there it is only 3 Cat 1 climbs and no Hors Category.

I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing. But perhaps women's endurance is a problem since those climbs are usually very long.

[Lou Holtman]

Why do you want to compare women pro cycling with men pro cycling? That is stupid. Women don’t have the same physic (thank god). Tomorrow’s last climb is the same as the last climb of one of the stages of the men’s TdF. I did that climb myself and I can tell you that it is as hard as the Alpe d’Huez, a bit shorter, but steeper. ‘ I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing.’, what a nonsense. Two climbing stages in 8 days is more than enough. There should be a TT in though.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I don't want to compare them. But don't you think that if you do have a woman's Tour that you should play to their strengths and not their weaknesses? More hard climbs and less long flats.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Tommy shows his stupidity again.
Definition of PHYSIC
1a : the art or practice of healing disease. b : the practice or profession of medicine. 2 : a medicinal agent or preparation especially : purgative. 3 archaic : natural science.

Definition of PHYSIQUE
the form, size, and development of a person's body.

Tommy, get an education. Go to school. Learn vocabulary. Read a dictionary.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Uh Oh!!!!! My mistake. I mistook Lou's post for Tommy's. Sorry. I can and will forgive Lou for mistaking physic with physique. Since Lou is from the Netherlands and English is not his native language. My apologies to you Lou.

[Lou Holtman]

No I don't think so. I assure you that nothing is really flat in France. Most of the times it is at least hilly and they had some unpaved stretches combined with that. Besides this you have to give the sprinters also a chance. This fixation on 'hard climbs' is silly but still the best climber will win this Tour. Annemiek van Vleuten is an amazing cyclist. You should see her trainings program, you wimp. The women pro cyclists have to proof nothing to you. If you don't like it just don't watch. I enjoyed watching their race.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

That is what I meant, I was too lazy to look it up because it didn't look right. Don't worry about it. How is your Dutch ;-)

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Lou,. I've been to France and I can assure you that France would be considered flat when compared to over half of the US. Arizona is generally considered a flat state but the Grand Canyon is inside of its boundaries. The central California Valley is bounded north and south by mile high mountains that they cannot even begin to compare with the Rocky Mountains.

If climbing the big mountains wasn't so interesting to spectators WHY were the flat states having spectators in villages standing outside of their doorways and watching the race pass and in the high mountains, thousands of motor homes and campers and entire sections of the hard parts of the courses lined 3 deep with spectators.

Even our local hills surrounding the San Francisco Bay have many 12% climbs and one of the local century rides goes up a 23% section that is a mile long. Novato which is near more farming area has 24% sections of paved road. The road that goes by Repack which is where mountain bikes were invented has a 14% section on it and travels out to the coast and returns past the Cheese Factory on a 12% more than a mile long climb. Lookout Point at the Golden Gate Bridge is 18%. I don't ride up one of the streets 2 miles from my home anymore but I used to and it is over 16%.

Climbing is more interesting than riding on flats and even old and slow me does rides that are 80% climbing.

[Tom Kunich]

Seaton can forgive you because he gives himself a physic every day.

[AMuzi]

On 7/31/2022 11:32 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 11:42:46 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 11:28:06 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 2:08:43 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 10:21:34 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:40:00 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:52:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 5:32:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/29/2022 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:46:59 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 4:19:58 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ms Weibes leads, spectacular crash:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/sport/insolite/enorme-chute-collective-sur-le-tour-feminin-1319194.html--
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.7sur7.be/cyclisme/lotte-kopecky-repond-aux-railleries-sur-les-nombreuses-chutes-lors-du-tour-feminin~a3012916/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-feminin-une-terrible-chute-jette-une-cinquantaine-de-coureuses-a-terre-lors-de-la-5-e-etape-20220728
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>>>>>>>>>> I’m following the live coverage of the Tour Feminin and saw some very weird crashes also in todays stage.

>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Riding with my step daughters and a couple of 8 year old girls of one of the group, they FAR excelled at climbing. But there doesn't seem to be much climbing in the Tour la Femm. I wonder why that is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just watched the crash in stage 5 and it was pretty plain that the women simply do not have the training that the men have. While touching wheels could happen anywhere the men seldom have huge pileups like that. The yellow, white and green jerseys were near the front and were not involved,. I am pretty sure the polka dots missed as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since women are far more likely to break bones seriously, I think that climbing is more in their line.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'not much climbing' ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TDFF officials have taken your criticism to heart:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/the-rouleur-journal/tour-de-france-femmes-2022-stage-seven-preview-the-real-climbing-begins
>>>>>>> Well, I've only gotten to stage 5 and to tell you the truth, the courses have been embarrassingly easy.
>>>>>> Embarrassingly easy? WTF. You could not hold their wheel for 10 km. Stage of 175 km, average speed 40+ km/hr, two mountain stages with 2500 - 3000 m of climbing. That was a stupid remark, one of many.
>>>>> Of course I couldn't. I'm 77 years old and not a pro. The MEN'S TdF averaged 3 mph faster and most of these women could not hold the wheels of those guys riding EASY. all of this aside from the fact that women has thinner and more brittle bone structure and tend to ride easier for that reason. Now women CAN probably climb as fast as men Pro's. In my experience women climbed at least as fast as the very best men. But to this point I haven't seen any really trying women/s course though Andrew did being Stage 6 to my attention. But even there it is only 3 Cat 1 climbs and no Hors Category.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing. But perhaps women's endurance is a problem since those climbs are usually very long.

>>>> Why do you want to compare women pro cycling with men pro cycling? That is stupid. Women don’t have the same physic (thank god). Tomorrow’s last climb is the same as the last climb of one of the stages of the men’s TdF. I did that climb myself and I can tell you that it is as hard as the Alpe d’Huez, a bit shorter, but steeper. ‘ I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing.’, what a nonsense. Two climbing stages in 8 days is more than enough. There should be a TT in though.

>>> I don't want to compare them. But don't you think that if you do have a woman's Tour that you should play to their strengths and not their weaknesses? More hard climbs and less long flats.
>> No I don't think so. I assure you that nothing is really flat in France. Most of the times it is at least hilly and they had some unpaved stretches combined with that. Besides this you have to give the sprinters also a chance. This fixation on 'hard climbs' is silly but still the best climber will win this Tour. Annemiek van Vleuten is an amazing cyclist. You should see her trainings program, you wimp. The women pro cyclists have to proof nothing to you. If you don't like it just don't watch. I enjoyed watching their race.
>
> Lou,. I've been to France and I can assure you that France would be considered flat when compared to over half of the US. Arizona is generally considered a flat state but the Grand Canyon is inside of its boundaries. The central California Valley is bounded north and south by mile high mountains that they cannot even begin to compare with the Rocky Mountains.
>
> If climbing the big mountains wasn't so interesting to spectators WHY were the flat states having spectators in villages standing outside of their doorways and watching the race pass and in the high mountains, thousands of motor homes and campers and entire sections of the hard parts of the courses lined 3 deep with spectators.
>
> Even our local hills surrounding the San Francisco Bay have many 12% climbs and one of the local century rides goes up a 23% section that is a mile long. Novato which is near more farming area has 24% sections of paved road. The road that goes by Repack which is where mountain bikes were invented has a 14% section on it and travels out to the coast and returns past the Cheese Factory on a 12% more than a mile long climb. Lookout Point at the Golden Gate Bridge is 18%. I don't ride up one of the streets 2 miles from my home anymore but I used to and it is over 16%.
>
> Climbing is more interesting than riding on flats and even old and slow me does rides that are 80% climbing.
>

The French magazines I read in the 1960s, 1970s were
photoshopped? Who knew?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=le+tour+alpe+d%27huez&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=le+tour+galibier&t=h_&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=le+tour+ventoux&t=h_&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

etc etc

--

[Lou Holtman]

I have been to the US multiple times and crossed it from East to West and I saw a lot of flattish parts. More than half of the spectators on the mountain stages know shit about cycling. They just want to party, see the riders suffer or want to come on TV. Just like formula 1 races were the just want to see crashes. Morons. I watched both live on TV, much better overview. Chris Horner gave his analysis after each TdF stage of the men on youtube. Highly recommended.


Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Who said anything about photoshopping? I can watched the closing stage and are you insinuating that the wider areas of roads were packed with campers and motorhomes? The same with yesterday's climbing stage.

[Tom Kunich]

And I followed the Tour two years and there were PLENTY of flat stages where the Peloton was averaging 28 mph.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Thankfully, thankfully, thankfully, when I was cycling in The Netherlands 30 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone I met spoke perfect English. That made staying at the hostels much easier for me. My Dutch is zero. How many languages are you fluent in? Writing and speaking.

[Sepp Ruf]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> The same with yesterday's climbing stage.

Did anyone report why that motorcycle fell over in the final unpaved
curve? Was it slowed down and couldn't accelerate while carrying a
camera-holding passenger, at 24% grade?

--
Hey, Jay Beattie - in case you occasionally lurk for your ego - can you
please congratulate your son's company of Specialized "geniuses" for
having put one S logo on each black leg!?
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlandsche_SS>

[Lou Holtman]

Just German and English and I don't starve in France, Spain and Italy. At work I have to speak English 80% of the time because my foreign colleagues refuse to learn Dutch, not even trying. I find this amazing considering that they already spent 4-5 years here studying and plan to start or already have a family here. I know Dutch is not the easiest language to learn but WTF. We make it too easy for them talking English.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

If you watch the footage carefully, it looks like he stalled the motorcycle. It was a 24% grade at that point.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:21:34 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:40:00 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:52:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 5:32:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > On 7/29/2022 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:46:59 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > >> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 4:19:58 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >>> Ms Weibes leads, spectacular crash:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/sport/insolite/enorme-chute-collective-sur-le-tour-feminin-1319194.html--
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> https://www.7sur7.be/cyclisme/lotte-kopecky-repond-aux-railleries-sur-les-nombreuses-chutes-lors-du-tour-feminin~a3012916/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-feminin-une-terrible-chute-jette-une-cinquantaine-de-coureuses-a-terre-lors-de-la-5-e-etape-20220728
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Andrew Muzi
> > > > >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > > >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > >> I’m following the live coverage of the Tour Feminin and saw some very weird crashes also in todays stage.
> > > > >
> > > > > Riding with my step daughters and a couple of 8 year old girls of one of the group, they FAR excelled at climbing. But there doesn't seem to be much climbing in the Tour la Femm. I wonder why that is.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just watched the crash in stage 5 and it was pretty plain that the women simply do not have the training that the men have. While touching wheels could happen anywhere the men seldom have huge pileups like that. The yellow, white and green jerseys were near the front and were not involved,. I am pretty sure the polka dots missed as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since women are far more likely to break bones seriously, I think that climbing is more in their line.
> > > > >
> > > > 'not much climbing' ?
> > > >
> > > > TDFF officials have taken your criticism to heart:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/the-rouleur-journal/tour-de-france-femmes-2022-stage-seven-preview-the-real-climbing-begins
> > > Well, I've only gotten to stage 5 and to tell you the truth, the courses have been embarrassingly easy.
> > Embarrassingly easy? WTF. You could not hold their wheel for 10 km. Stage of 175 km, average speed 40+ km/hr, two mountain stages with 2500 - 3000 m of climbing. That was a stupid remark, one of many.
>
> Of course I couldn't. I'm 77 years old and not a pro.

You couldn't have held their wheel when you were in your "prime", asshat.

> The MEN'S TdF averaged 3 mph faster and most of these women could not hold the wheels of those guys riding EASY.

According to www.procyclingstats.com

2022 Mens TdF
Avg. speed winner: 42.102 km/h

2022 Womens TdFF
Avg. speed winner: 38.355 km/h

We know math is hard for you tommy, so here's some help:
42.102 KpH = 26.16 MpH
38.355 KpH = 23.83 MpH
26.16 - 23.83 = 2.33

Meh, we'll give you that one.....

> all of this aside from the fact that women has thinner and more brittle bone structure and tend to ride easier for that reason.

Sure sparky <eyeroll>

> Now women CAN probably climb as fast as men Pro's.

not even close:
https://www.strava.com/segments/31441334
https://www.strava.com/segments/683473
https://www.strava.com/segments/17851688

> In my experience women climbed at least as fast as the very best men.

Which only goes to prove what we've know about you for years: you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Certainly at _my_ level I've had my ass handed to me plenty of times on climbs by women. IT was usually a cat 1 or Cat 2 woman semi-pro hopping into the senior 3 race because there wasn't a women's field.

> But to this point I haven't seen any really trying women/s course though Andrew did being Stage 6 to my attention. But even there it is only 3 Cat 1 climbs and no Hors Category.

He may have brought something to your attention, but you certainly weren't paying attention. It was stages 7 and 8, not stage 6. Stage 7 had "only" 3 cat 1s - 12K feet of climbing over 80 miles. , stage 8 had "only" one cat 2 and two cat 1s - 9500 feet of climbing over 85 miles. Yesterday's stage finished at the top of a cat 1 climb 3700 feet over 4 1/2 miles, where the final KM was a gravel road with a 24% pitch in one section. But I guess that isn't a "trying" course by tommy standards. Neither then would stage 4 have been - 80 miles with two cat 3 climbs and three cat 4 climbs with 4 gravel sectors - yeah, that was a fucking cake walk - "embarrassingly easy".....

Gawd yer an idiot.....

[Tom Kunich]

It was too far out of the picture to see and they didn't mention it. I assumed that they simply slowed up too much. Motorcycles aren't like bikes and you can't balance them well slower than about 5 mph.

[Tom Kunich]

Usually the reason that Americans don't learn foreign languages are the dramatically different sounds of the letters of the alphabet. Slavic languages may have between 5 and 15 sounds (added letters in the alphabet) that Americans have never even heard before. This makes one feel stupid when your mouth and brain want to pronounce a letter one way and the truth sound in that language is completely different sounding.

[Lou Holtman]

The main reason Americans don't learn a foreign language is that the get away with it in most places because the other party start talking English to them and then they get lazy and aren't even trying. The reason the Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Fins speak their languages is because they get nowhere when the speak their native language when abroad. The French are as lazy as the Americans by the way. Once a French truck driver ask me for directions when I was working in my front garden (pre Google Maps era) and I was trying hard to understand what he was trying to say speaking French. I explained to him that I only could give him directions in English. Then he got mad.... I think he ended up in the complete other direction.


Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I don't know, perhaps it is just being lazy but I believe I made an honest attempt to learn French to go to the Tour. But if I tried to speak it the looks I got from French waiters etc. was such that I would simply revert to English. Perhaps if they made an attempt to correct your pronunciation that would help but I never saw a Frenchman do that.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 10:33:42 AM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

> The main reason Americans don't learn a foreign language is that the get away with it in most places because the other party start talking English to them and then they get lazy and aren't even trying. The reason the Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Fins speak their languages is because they get nowhere when the speak their native language when abroad. The French are as lazy as the Americans by the way. Once a French truck driver ask me for directions when I was working in my front garden (pre Google Maps era) and I was trying hard to understand what he was trying to say speaking French. I explained to him that I only could give him directions in English. Then he got mad.... I think he ended up in the complete other direction.
>
>

"My reason for traveling is to make myself eager to come home. A month among the French should manage it. " - Violet Crawley, Dowager Countess of Grantham

[AMuzi]

On 8/1/2022 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 4:42:10 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 7:36:47 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 1:44:28 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 11:37:35 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:34:09 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:08:43 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 10:21:34 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:40:00 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:52:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 5:32:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/29/2022 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:46:59 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 4:19:58 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ms Weibes leads, spectacular crash:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/sport/insolite/enorme-chute-collective-sur-le-tour-feminin-1319194.html--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.7sur7.be/cyclisme/lotte-kopecky-repond-aux-railleries-sur-les-nombreuses-chutes-lors-du-tour-feminin~a3012916/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-feminin-une-terrible-chute-jette-une-cinquantaine-de-coureuses-a-terre-lors-de-la-5-e-etape-20220728
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m following the live coverage of the Tour Feminin and saw some very weird crashes also in todays stage.

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Riding with my step daughters and a couple of 8 year old girls of one of the group, they FAR excelled at climbing. But there doesn't seem to be much climbing in the Tour la Femm. I wonder why that is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just watched the crash in stage 5 and it was pretty plain that the women simply do not have the training that the men have. While touching wheels could happen anywhere the men seldom have huge pileups like that. The yellow, white and green jerseys were near the front and were not involved,. I am pretty sure the polka dots missed as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Since women are far more likely to break bones seriously, I think that climbing is more in their line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 'not much climbing' ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> TDFF officials have taken your criticism to heart:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/the-rouleur-journal/tour-de-france-femmes-2022-stage-seven-preview-the-real-climbing-begins
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I've only gotten to stage 5 and to tell you the truth, the courses have been embarrassingly easy.
>>>>>>>>> Embarrassingly easy? WTF. You could not hold their wheel for 10 km. Stage of 175 km, average speed 40+ km/hr, two mountain stages with 2500 - 3000 m of climbing. That was a stupid remark, one of many.
>>>>>>>> Of course I couldn't. I'm 77 years old and not a pro. The MEN'S TdF averaged 3 mph faster and most of these women could not hold the wheels of those guys riding EASY. all of this aside from the fact that women has thinner and more brittle bone structure and tend to ride easier for that reason. Now women CAN probably climb as fast as men Pro's. In my experience women climbed at least as fast as the very best men. But to this point I haven't seen any really trying women/s course though Andrew did being Stage 6 to my attention. But even there it is only 3 Cat 1 climbs and no Hors Category.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing. But perhaps women's endurance is a problem since those climbs are usually very long.

>>>>>>> Why do you want to compare women pro cycling with men pro cycling? That is stupid. Women don’t have the same physic (thank god).

>>>>>> Tommy shows his stupidity again.
>>>>>> Definition of PHYSIC
>>>>>> 1a : the art or practice of healing disease. b : the practice or profession of medicine. 2 : a medicinal agent or preparation especially : purgative. 3 archaic : natural science.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Definition of PHYSIQUE
>>>>>> the form, size, and development of a person's body.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tommy, get an education. Go to school. Learn vocabulary. Read a dictionary.

>>>>>>> Tomorrow’s last climb is the same as the last climb of one of the stages of the men’s TdF. I did that climb myself and I can tell you that it is as hard as the Alpe d’Huez, a bit shorter, but steeper. ‘ I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing.’, what a nonsense. Two climbing stages in 8 days is more than enough. There should be a TT in though.

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> Uh Oh!!!!! My mistake. I mistook Lou's post for Tommy's. Sorry. I can and will forgive Lou for mistaking physic with physique. Since Lou is from the Netherlands and English is not his native language. My apologies to you Lou.
>>>> That is what I meant, I was too lazy to look it up because it didn't look right. Don't worry about it. How is your Dutch ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> Thankfully, thankfully, thankfully, when I was cycling in The Netherlands 30 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone I met spoke perfect English. That made staying at the hostels much easier for me. My Dutch is zero. How many languages are you fluent in? Writing and speaking.
>> Just German and English and I don't starve in France, Spain and Italy. At work I have to speak English 80% of the time because my foreign colleagues refuse to learn Dutch, not even trying. I find this amazing considering that they already spent 4-5 years here studying and plan to start or already have a family here. I know Dutch is not the easiest language to learn but WTF. We make it too easy for them talking English.
>
> Usually the reason that Americans don't learn foreign languages are the dramatically different sounds of the letters of the alphabet. Slavic languages may have between 5 and 15 sounds (added letters in the alphabet) that Americans have never even heard before. This makes one feel stupid when your mouth and brain want to pronounce a letter one way and the truth sound in that language is completely different sounding.
>

And that's different from a Brooklynite in rural Georgia how
exactly?

--

[Tom Kunich]

Americans ACCEPT what they consider to be mispronunciation of words as long as they can understand it. In my experience rather than correct you, a Frenchman would try and speak even the most atrocious attempt at English and it never occurred to him that I didn't switch to French because he couldn't speak English in a crude manner.

These are nothing more than the trials and travails of travel to foreign lands. And since English is pretty much the world's most common language it is of little problem is it?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/1/2022 10:33 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> The main reason Americans don't learn a foreign language is that the get away with it in most places because the other party start talking English to them and then they get lazy and aren't even trying.

I think learning a language is difficult for most people, and especially
difficult if it's not absolutely necessary. Having someone speak your
native language makes it less than absolutely necessary.

> The reason the Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Fins speak their languages is because they get nowhere when the speak their native language when abroad. The French are as lazy as the Americans by the way. Once a French truck driver ask me for directions when I was working in my front garden (pre Google Maps era) and I was trying hard to understand what he was trying to say speaking French. I explained to him that I only could give him directions in English. Then he got mad.... I think he ended up in the complete other direction.

I think the French tend to be unusually protective of their language.
When we traveled in New Brunswick, Canada we saw road signs in both
English and French. When we moved on to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia we saw
road signs in both English and Scots Gaelic (IIRC). When we returned via
Quebec we saw road signs only in French.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

One mistake you should never make is to tell a continental french person that French is spoken in Quebec. I've seen someone speaking "Québécois" to a Parisian, the Québécois would have been better off speaking in english.

[Bertrand]

>> Even our local hills surrounding the San Francisco Bay have many 12% climbs
>> and one of the local century rides goes up a 23% section that is a mile long.

If there's really a road climb (or any segment of a climb) in the U.S. that
averages 23% for a mile I'd like to see it.

[Tom Kunich]

If I get back into good enough shape to ride that century again I will photograph it. I would have said the same thing you do but I have done that out-of-the-way road plus just as steep but far shorter 23% sections in Novato where the roads are wide enough and without any traffic so you can slither back and forth. Just two miles from my house is a road that climbs at 16+% and I used to climb it though I don't any more because there is occasionally traffic on it and it is lined with houses with cars parked out in front so it is a straight shot up.

[AMuzi]

They are not technically 'roads'.

https://cdllife.com/2021/video-truck-driver-almost-hits-the-top-of-colorado-runaway-ramp-then-rolls-backwards/

[John B.]

I read that the Mt. Washington bike race claims to be "the Toughest
hill climb in the World!" and has, I believe, an average grade of
12%, with extended sections of 18%. The last 100 yards is 22%.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Isn't there still a policy, in Canada, that government officials must
be able to speak both French and English?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Years ago I worked with two French speakers. One from Louisiana and
one from Canada. They could barely understand each other. And I grew
up in a little New England town where half the population was
"French", immigrants from the "French? section of Canada. It was said
that during WW II a Free France ship docked in Boston and one of the
crew visited distant relatives in my little town. And nobody could
understand "his" French.

But it isn't only the French. People from different sections of China
can't understand each other, and I believe that the German spoken in
parts of Switzerland varies greatly from that spoken just across the
border. And even people from one section of London, England, sound
different from the people in other districts.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 10:14:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/1/2022 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 4:42:10 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 7:36:47 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 1:44:28 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 11:37:35 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:34:09 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:08:43 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 10:21:34 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:40:00 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:52:19 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 5:32:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/29/2022 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:46:59 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 4:19:58 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ms Weibes leads, spectacular crash:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/sport/insolite/enorme-chute-collective-sur-le-tour-feminin-1319194.html--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.7sur7.be/cyclisme/lotte-kopecky-repond-aux-railleries-sur-les-nombreuses-chutes-lors-du-tour-feminin~a3012916/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-feminin-une-terrible-chute-jette-une-cinquantaine-de-coureuses-a-terre-lors-de-la-5-e-etape-20220728
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m following the live coverage of the Tour Feminin and saw some very weird crashes also in todays stage.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Riding with my step daughters and a couple of 8 year old girls of one of the group, they FAR excelled at climbing. But there doesn't seem to be much climbing in the Tour la Femm. I wonder why that is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just watched the crash in stage 5 and it was pretty plain that the women simply do not have the training that the men have. While touching wheels could happen anywhere the men seldom have huge pileups like that. The yellow, white and green jerseys were near the front and were not involved,. I am pretty sure the polka dots missed as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since women are far more likely to break bones seriously, I think that climbing is more in their line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'not much climbing' ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> TDFF officials have taken your criticism to heart:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/the-rouleur-journal/tour-de-france-femmes-2022-stage-seven-preview-the-real-climbing-begins
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I've only gotten to stage 5 and to tell you the truth, the courses have been embarrassingly easy.
>>>>>>>>>> Embarrassingly easy? WTF. You could not hold their wheel for 10 km. Stage of 175 km, average speed 40+ km/hr, two mountain stages with 2500 - 3000 m of climbing. That was a stupid remark, one of many.
>>>>>>>>> Of course I couldn't. I'm 77 years old and not a pro. The MEN'S TdF averaged 3 mph faster and most of these women could not hold the wheels of those guys riding EASY. all of this aside from the fact that women has thinner and more brittle bone structure and tend to ride easier for that reason. Now women CAN probably climb as fast as men Pro's. In my experience women climbed at least as fast as the very best men. But to this point I haven't seen any really trying women/s course though Andrew did being Stage 6 to my attention. But even there it is only 3 Cat 1 climbs and no Hors Category.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing. But perhaps women's endurance is a problem since those climbs are usually very long.

>>>>>>>> Why do you want to compare women pro cycling with men pro cycling? That is stupid. Women don’t have the same physic (thank god).

>>>>>>> Tommy shows his stupidity again.
>>>>>>> Definition of PHYSIC
>>>>>>> 1a : the art or practice of healing disease. b : the practice or profession of medicine. 2 : a medicinal agent or preparation especially : purgative. 3 archaic : natural science.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Definition of PHYSIQUE
>>>>>>> the form, size, and development of a person's body.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tommy, get an education. Go to school. Learn vocabulary. Read a dictionary.

>>>>>>>> Tomorrow’s last climb is the same as the last climb of one of the stages of the men’s TdF. I did that climb myself and I can tell you that it is as hard as the Alpe d’Huez, a bit shorter, but steeper. ‘ I would think that if you want to showcase the abilities of the women's peloton that you would put in a lot of climbing.’, what a nonsense. Two climbing stages in 8 days is more than enough. There should be a TT in though.

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> Uh Oh!!!!! My mistake. I mistook Lou's post for Tommy's. Sorry. I can and will forgive Lou for mistaking physic with physique. Since Lou is from the Netherlands and English is not his native language. My apologies to you Lou.
>>>>> That is what I meant, I was too lazy to look it up because it didn't look right. Don't worry about it. How is your Dutch ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> Thankfully, thankfully, thankfully, when I was cycling in The Netherlands 30 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone I met spoke perfect English. That made staying at the hostels much easier for me. My Dutch is zero. How many languages are you fluent in? Writing and speaking.
>>> Just German and English and I don't starve in France, Spain and Italy. At work I have to speak English 80% of the time because my foreign colleagues refuse to learn Dutch, not even trying. I find this amazing considering that they already spent 4-5 years here studying and plan to start or already have a family here. I know Dutch is not the easiest language to learn but WTF. We make it too easy for them talking English.
>>
>> Usually the reason that Americans don't learn foreign languages are the dramatically different sounds of the letters of the alphabet. Slavic languages may have between 5 and 15 sounds (added letters in the alphabet) that Americans have never even heard before. This makes one feel stupid when your mouth and brain want to pronounce a letter one way and the truth sound in that language is completely different sounding.
>>
>
>And that's different from a Brooklynite in rural Georgia how
>exactly?

(:-) Or even one from the gulf coast of Texas in West Texas (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

The inability to speak a language other then their native language
seem to be largely a feature English speakers. My wife (Thai national)
when I brought her to Indonesia was "talking" to the Indonesian maid,
in Indonesian, within days of arrival. No, she wasn't fluent but she
could make herself understood and could understand the maid
sufficiently well to manage the house, do the shopping, etc.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/1/2022 7:20 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Years ago I worked with two French speakers. One from Louisiana and
> one from Canada. They could barely understand each other. And I grew
> up in a little New England town where half the population was
> "French", immigrants from the "French? section of Canada. It was said
> that during WW II a Free France ship docked in Boston and one of the
> crew visited distant relatives in my little town. And nobody could
> understand "his" French.
>
> But it isn't only the French. People from different sections of China
> can't understand each other, and I believe that the German spoken in
> parts of Switzerland varies greatly from that spoken just across the
> border. And even people from one section of London, England, sound
> different from the people in other districts.

When I first moved to the deep south of America, I was working as hard
as I could to understand the local version of English. There were times
I made embarrassing mistakes, until I began to catch on.

And on our first overseas bike tour, we were taking a train to escape
rain in the Lake District of England. While I was off purchasing
tickets, an old local guy started a long friendly conversation with my
wife. When I finally had the tickets, she seemed really relieved to join
me and move on. I asked if the guy had made her uncomfortable, but she
said "No, I just couldn't understand a word he was saying!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Q: What do you call a person who speaks two languages? A: Bilingual.

Q: What do you call a person who speaks three languages? A: Trilingual.

Q: What do you call a person who speaks only one language? A: American.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Dutch, German, English. Compliments. I've ridden in France, Spain and Italy too. I did not starve even though I am only conversant in English. Gestures and pointing work well for getting food. I agree on your colleagues. If you are spending years in a foreign country, make the effort to learn the language. You may not be fluent and able to hold a conversation, but you can at least speak a few words to get ideas across.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Now I am all for criticizing our Tommy boy for the foolishness he says. But some things are just so stupid or nonsensical as to not even warrant a response. Such as someone saying they can beat up the heavyweight boxing champion. (Although some idiot tried to take on Mike Tyson recently.) Or someone saying they are stronger than Lou Ferrigno or Arnold Schwarzenegger in their prime.

Anyone saying they are comparable to a professional cyclist falls into this nonsensical category not even requiring a response. And whether you are in your prime or not is immaterial. Professional athletes are completely different from normal people. And yes I am mistakenly including Tommy in the normal people category.

> > The MEN'S TdF averaged 3 mph faster and most of these women could not hold the wheels of those guys riding EASY.
> According to www.procyclingstats.com
>
> 2022 Mens TdF
> Avg. speed winner: 42.102 km/h
>
> 2022 Womens TdFF
> Avg. speed winner: 38.355 km/h
>
> We know math is hard for you tommy, so here's some help:
> 42.102 KpH = 26.16 MpH
> 38.355 KpH = 23.83 MpH
> 26.16 - 23.83 = 2.33
>
> Meh, we'll give you that one.....
> > all of this aside from the fact that women has thinner and more brittle bone structure and tend to ride easier for that reason.
> Sure sparky <eyeroll>
> > Now women CAN probably climb as fast as men Pro's.
> not even close:
> https://www.strava.com/segments/31441334
> https://www.strava.com/segments/683473
> https://www.strava.com/segments/17851688
> > In my experience women climbed at least as fast as the very best men.
> Which only goes to prove what we've know about you for years: you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Certainly at _my_ level I've had my ass handed to me plenty of times on climbs by women. IT was usually a cat 1 or Cat 2 woman semi-pro hopping into the senior 3 race because there wasn't a women's field.
> > But to this point I haven't seen any really trying women/s course though Andrew did being Stage 6 to my attention. But even there it is only 3 Cat 1 climbs and no Hors Category.
> He may have brought something to your attention, but you certainly weren't paying attention. It was stages 7 and 8, not stage 6. Stage 7 had "only" 3 cat 1s - 12K feet of climbing over 80 miles. , stage 8 had "only" one cat 2 and two cat 1s - 9500 feet of climbing over 85 miles. Yesterday's stage finished at the top of a cat 1 climb 3700 feet over 4 1/2 miles, where the final KM was a gravel road with a 24% pitch in one section. But I guess that isn't a "trying" course by tommy standards. Neither then would stage 4 have been - 80 miles with two cat 3 climbs and three cat 4 climbs with 4 gravel sectors - yeah, that was a fucking cake walk - "embarrassingly easy".....
>
> Gawd yer an idiot.....

Agree on Tommy the idiot. But why did the women's race have so many gravel sections? Were the organizers intentionally picking less travelled roads (gravel) to minimize the disruption to public roads? I'm sure for the men's Tour they don't care if they go right through the middle of Paris!!!!!!

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

The same reason they add gravel and cobblestone sections to the mens races - it makes them more interesting and creates a challenge for the riders. There has been a women's Paris Roubaix off and on over the years - https://www.paris-roubaix-femmes.fr/en. And for what it's worth, the first stage of the TdFF finished on the Champs-Élysées. It was about making the race race as much a visual spectacle as possible, these challenging gravel and cobble sections are big spectator draws.