Surgeon General Reveals Scary Risks Associated With Covid Jabs

[Andre Jute]

Yup! More evidence emerges to prove Tom was right and you monkeys who swallowed the lies of the Administration wholesale, and abused Tom for being smarter than you are, are still stoopid. Gee, who coulda guessed?

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/saraharnold/2022/12/09/florida-surgeon-general-reveals-scary-risks-associated-with-covid-jabs-n2616980

Andre Jute
I don't have to guess: I'm a scary judge of character and you clowns were obviously born lemmings.
>

[Tom Kunich]

I analyzed the deaths in northern Italy and plainly it was no danger. So why did they put a full court press on vaccines?

I showed the "Excess deaths from covid-19" page of the CDC and Frank cannot read it and called them liars.

Perhaps more important is that there are a LOT of excess deaths of people that are NOT connected to covid-19. While cases of covid-19 are rising they are not dying supposedly or otherwise from it. In GB several million cases and ONE possible death from it. (though with multiple comorbities)

This suggests that people are dying either from long term effects from the vaccine or from the lockdown and wearing masks. You can't make massive changes to social lifestyle without paying a price. Hopefully Liebermann will run out and get a new booster and wear his mask everywhere.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Nice of TownHaul to not include a link to the research report:
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365782650_Autopsy-based_histopathological_characterization_of_myocarditis_after_anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination>
Original Paper (11 pages PDF):
<https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Clinical-Research-in-Cardiology-1861-0692/publication/365782650_Autopsy-based_histopathological_characterization_of_myocarditis_after_anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination/links/6384224ec2cb154d29351bb3/Autopsy-based-histopathological-characterization-of-myocarditis-after-anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination.pdf>

Nice report. No raw data. Supplements mentioned seem to be missing.
No range of dates for the data collected. No test for statistical
significance.

Some interesting sample pre-selection:

"Data on autopsies of persons, who received anti-SARS-
CoV-2 vaccination (up to 20 days before their death), were
obtained from the COVID autopsy and biomaterial registry
Baden-Württemberg."

Is the biomaterial registry derived from tissue samples taken after an
autopsy? I believe so, but I'm not sure.

"Among the 35 cases of the University of Heidelberg, autopsies
revealed other causes of death (due to pre-existing illnesses) in 10
patients (Supplementary Table 1). Hence, these were excluded from
further analysis."

OK, so where did the data originate? Perhaps a European version of
the US VAERS database mess? Did someone pick through the data base
and select 35 likely victims? Seem like it me, especially since they
only found 5 genuine victims, one of which is problematic.

"Cardiac autopsy findings consistent with (epi-)myocarditis were found
in five cases of the remaining 25 bodies found unexpectedly dead at
home within 20 days following SARS-CoV-2 vaccination."

Ok, they found something resembling myocarditis in 5 dead patients
that didn't have pre-existing conditions, out of an pre-selected
population of 35 dead patients. Seem like the conclusion is based on
some rather sparse data.

Oddly, all those that died had received either no previous Covid
vaccinations or only the first. Also oddly, there's no date for when
the sample population was collected or when they died. From the lack
of initial vaccinations, it would seem to be from early 2021, during a
period everything related to Covid was a confused mess, especially
record keeping.

Meanwhile, 5.47 billion people have received at least one vaccination
shot so far in about 19 months without dropping dead:
<https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations>
The 5 unexplained deaths are worth digging deeper into a possible
problem, but not some manner of "stop everything" panic reaction. A
much larger number of people probably drop dead from "unexplained
causes" every day:
"Estimated incidence and risk factors of sudden unexpected death"
<https://openheart.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000321>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:31:34 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I would suspect that almost any immunization has some dangers. I
remember when I was getting my shots prior to being transfer to
Vietnam to "make the world safe from Communism". I got the usual
booster shots for the usual immunizations that all military get and
then had to drop my pants for another"shot" in the hip - a rather
large one I thought.

After the Medic gave me the shot, which was for the Plague, he asked
me, You aren't going anywhere in the next few days, are you?" When I
answer him, asking why he cared what I did, or words to that effect,
he replied that after getting the "Plague shot" they preferred that
the recipient "stay around for a few days".

When I questioned him, "Why!" he replied that "Well, some people have
a bit of a reaction".

Another time, at a training base in Alabama, we got the usual "flu
shot" that the A.F. used to give everyone at the beginning of the "flu
season" and so many had a rather violent reaction that they had to
cancel training for a week as not only were all the instructor pilots
sick but also all the aircraft maintenance people.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 12/10/2022 5:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Oddly, all those that died had received either no previous Covid
> vaccinations or only the first. Also oddly, there's no date for when
> the sample population was collected or when they died. From the lack
> of initial vaccinations, it would seem to be from early 2021, during a
> period everything related to Covid was a confused mess, especially
> record keeping.

One thing that you can be sure of is that anything from Townhall.com has
as much credibility as Tom or Andre, in other words, no credibility at all.

"Townhall scored an average Factual Grade of 47.9%, placing it in the
8th percentile of our dataset. A number of factors contribute to these
low scores. Critically, many articles lack sufficient evidence, meaning
there is sparse sourcing of information in the form of direct quotes or
links to relevant, high-quality articles. Some articles include almost
no relevant sources at all. Many articles also score poorly due to
highly biased language and headlines, suggesting that articles aim to
elicit an emotional response rather than neutrally convey information.
Finally, the site receives mixed scores for author expertise, which
suggests that authors for Townhall either rarely cover the same topics
consistently, a sign of low topical expertise, or fail to write
high-quality content generally."

Actually, it's amazing that they got such a high factual grade.

[sms]

On 12/10/2022 6:29 PM, sms wrote:

<snip>

> Actually, it's amazing that they got such a high factual grade.

If you want to check how reputable a news source is you can go to
<https://www.thefactual.com/blog/biased-factual-reliable-new-sources/>
and scroll down to "The Factual's Media Ecosystem 2022 (Table)."
Townhall rates very poorly but there are some sites and newspapers that
are worse, with the absolute worst being _The Epoch Times_.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:29:10 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>Actually, it's amazing that they got such a high factual grade.

The problem I was addressing was not so much the distortions of
TownHall, but rather the authors of the paper taking great liberties
with the data by not disclosing the details of their sources of
information and possibly the omission of source data. TownHall might
be guilty of finding and publishing only papers that fit their agenda,
but almost everyone does that. However the authors of the paper
seemed to be favoring a sensationalist approach to their conclusions
based on a tiny statistical sample that would certainly be rejected by
a peer review. I was really amazed at the huge amount of irrelevant
detail they provided on their procedures, while not mentioning
anything about their source of statistical data. I've seen this
before, where the authors are looking for funding for additional
research or need additional research credits on their resume.

Also, Andre should get some kind of credit for accepting the TownHall
article at face value, while not bothering to research the source of
the TownHall article and questioning its data and the validity of its
"results". I expected better from him.

I was wondering how many states have their very own surgeon generals:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon_general>
"In the United States, the chief public health officer is the Surgeon
General of the United States, and a small number of states have state
surgeons general."
Only 4 US states have surgeon generals.
<https://www.thenationshealth.org/content/49/3/1.1>
"To date, only five states have created such a post, and only four
still have it, as Michigan has not filled the position since 2010."
Little wonder as medical doctors working for governments tends to be
VERY expensive. For example, my local county:
<https://openpayrolls.com/rank/highest-paid-employees/santa-cruz-county-ca>

[Andre Jute]

On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 1:31:42 AM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:11:38 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Yup! More evidence emerges to prove Tom was right and you monkeys who swallowed the lies of the Administration wholesale, and abused Tom for being smarter than you are, are still stoopid. Gee, who coulda guessed?
> >
> >https://townhall.com/tipsheet/saraharnold/2022/12/09/florida-surgeon-general-reveals-scary-risks-associated-with-covid-jabs-n2616980
> >
> >Andre Jute
> >I don't have to guess: I'm a scary judge of character and you clowns were obviously born lemmings.
> >>
> Nice of TownHaul to not include a link to the research report:
>

It's a safe bet that the readers of Townhall are not Democrats who need to be spoonfed and told what to believe, but self-starters who can look up a study.

>
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365782650_Autopsy-based_histopathological_characterization_of_myocarditis_after_anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination>
> Original Paper (11 pages PDF):
> <https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Clinical-Research-in-Cardiology-1861-0692/publication/365782650_Autopsy-based_histopathological_characterization_of_myocarditis_after_anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination/links/6384224ec2cb154d29351bb3/Autopsy-based-histopathological-characterization-of-myocarditis-after-anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination.pdf>
>
> Nice report. No raw data. Supplements mentioned seem to be missing.
> No range of dates for the data collected. No test for statistical
> significance.
>
> Some interesting sample pre-selection:
>

Get your nose out of your ass, Jeff. You weren't so dumb before you started trying to prove everything Tom and I say is wrong. For a start, if you're investigating the reason for people dying, you're by definition working with a preselected sample, dead people, so sneers of the nature of "Some interesting sample pre-selection" are out of order and not even amusing; that's just a dumbass debating trick. All statistics have some level of preselection of the overall sample, for reasons of simple cost and convenience. Amateurs confuse sample pre-selection for cost and manageability with intra-sample post-selection for political or commercial bias. I gave a shattering demonstration of the latter on this forum in the case of the Zimmermann dissertation on which the 97% lie of the global warmies is based. If your hypothesis to be proved or disproved is furthermore the possibility that the COVID vaccine cause heart failures, then your sample is fixed to people who took the COVID shot and died suddenly without preconditions within x days. In most civilised societies autopsies are routinely performed on people who die suddenly without obvious cause. So the time limit of 20 days then determines how many autopsies can be looked at. Apparently there was a geographical limit as well. (Germany is a federation, just like the US. The province or Staat corresponds roughly to a US State, which is likely to have only one or a very few mortuaries capable of handling an autopsy in viral disease case, and it is likely to have a strong connection with a local teaching hospital and through that with the University Medical School.)

>
> "Data on autopsies of persons, who received anti-SARS-
> CoV-2 vaccination (up to 20 days before their death), were
> obtained from the COVID autopsy and biomaterial registry
> Baden-Württemberg."
>
> Is the biomaterial registry derived from tissue samples taken after an
> autopsy? I believe so, but I'm not sure.
>

I don't know either but see above.; I think it is extremely likely.

>
> "Among the 35 cases of the University of Heidelberg, autopsies
> revealed other causes of death (due to pre-existing illnesses) in 10
> patients (Supplementary Table 1). Hence, these were excluded from
> further analysis."
>
> OK, so where did the data originate? Perhaps a European version of
> the US VAERS database mess?
>

Tom's only been telling you lot for years now that the COVID bookkeeping is an obfuscating mess, and you lot have been mindlessly abusing him for it, even when I told you were very likely wrong, and I would hold you to account for it..
>
So, now that you're finally admitting it, Jeff, when can we see your apology to Tom in print on this forum, and the individual personal apologies of rest of your gang street corner bullies?

>
>Did someone pick through the data base
> and select 35 likely victims? Seem like it me, especially since they
> only found 5 genuine victims, one of which is problematic.
>

Once more, Jeff, you have your nose so firmly up your ass, sniffing your obsession with proving Tom and me wrong, you don't even integrate what you yourself just wrote above in the paragraph starting "Data on autopsies of persons, who received anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination..." The people you're quoting didn't pick through any data. They just asked the pathologist or the compiler of statistics for the government reports for the raw data. As for demand for the raw data, above, have you never heard of privacy legislation?

>
> "Cardiac autopsy findings consistent with (epi-)myocarditis were found
> in five cases of the remaining 25 bodies found unexpectedly dead at
> home within 20 days following SARS-CoV-2 vaccination."
>
> Ok, they found something resembling myocarditis
>

"Resembling?" Bullshit. More vague sneering in your limp effort to discredit the report.

>
> in 5 dead patients
> that didn't have pre-existing conditions, out of an pre-selected
> population of 35 dead patients.
>

Before your wits were dulled by your obsession, Jeff, you didn't fail simple mathematical tests. They weren't studying 35. You told us yourself only a few lines ago that 10 autopsied patients were excluded because of preconditions. This incidentally, is a point Tom made to you clowns more times than you deserved, and each time your lack of thanks for good advice was strikingly obvious, and your graceless abuse of him despicable. Just in case you want to argue, you can look up the number of times Tom told you to differentiate between people died *of* COVID from those who died *with* COVID. These medical investigators aren't as stupid as you lot: they excluded those who died of obvious natural causes.
>
So now they were left with 25 cases and investigation showed five died of a possibly vaccine-related heart failure. That's 20% of those who died suddenly without prior conditions.

>
>Seem like the conclusion is based on
> some rather sparse data.
>

Crap. That's all the data available at the time. These people weren't sitting in an ivory tower being Monday-morning quarterbacks, they were studying a catastrophe in motion, probably with one eye on policy implications. Would you rather they waited until, say, another thousand people died of heart failures brought on by the vaccine?

>
> Oddly, all those that died had received either no previous Covid
> vaccinations or only the first. Also oddly, there's no date for when
> the sample population was collected or when they died. From the lack
> of initial vaccinations, it would seem to be from early 2021, during a
> period everything related to Covid was a confused mess, especially
> record keeping.
>

You can't condemn a study that was done to good effect against the odds by blaming those odds against the investigators on the investigators. That's a tautological argument, entirely circular, stupid beyond belief.

>
> Meanwhile, 5.47 billion people have received at least one vaccination
> shot so far in about 19 months without dropping dead:
> <https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations>
>
> The 5 unexplained deaths are worth digging deeper into a possible
> problem, but not some manner of "stop everything" panic reaction. A
> much larger number of people probably drop dead from "unexplained
> causes" every day:
>

These medical researchers saw you coming, Jeff, and all the other little control freaks who saw in COVID a golden opportunity to interfere in the lives of other people. They limited their study to "within 20 days of the COVID shot". So, the obvious question to you on hand of you objections is, does your "much larger number of people probably drop dead from "unexplained causes" every day" drop dead within 20 days

>
> "Estimated incidence and risk factors of sudden unexpected death"
> <https://openheart.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000321>
>

Pointless in this extremely particular situation.
>
Andre Jute
Statistics is an art form, not a branch of mathematics as the knuckleheads will have us believe. The math is just the shorthand of Statistics.
>

[Andre Jute]

On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 2:29:18 AM UTC, sms wrote:
> On 12/10/2022 5:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Oddly, all those that died had received either no previous Covid
> > vaccinations or only the first. Also oddly, there's no date for when
> > the sample population was collected or when they died. From the lack
> > of initial vaccinations, it would seem to be from early 2021, during a
> > period everything related to Covid was a confused mess, especially
> > record keeping.
> One thing that you can be sure of is that anything from Townhall.com has
> as much credibility as Tom or Andre, in other words, no credibility at all.
>

Are you the same Steven M Scharf who used to operate a netsite with photographs of naked women on bicycles?
>
Are you the same "SMS" who refers to his wife as "the spousal unit" as if she were a robot?"
>
Are you the same Mayor Scharf who was to thick to steal anything except paperclips during your term of office?
>
Are you the same Scharfie who doesn't even try to contest any of the facts in the reference but tries to muzzle the messenger with generic ad hominem.

>
> "Townhall scored an average Factual Grade of 47.9%, "
>

Who are these unnamed clowns who wrote this report. You should run and tell them that Downhill is a collection of columnists, Scharfie, and tell them not to make pompous assholes of themselves with irrelevant crap like "Factual Grade."

>
> "placing it in the
> 8th percentile of our dataset.
>

Pretensions of scientific method.

>
>A number of factors contribute to these
> low scores. Critically, many articles lack sufficient evidence, meaning
> there is sparse sourcing of information in the form of direct quotes or
> links to relevant, high-quality articles.
>

Holy shit, these guys are thicker than two short planks together. Yo, morons, columns are loaded with opinions. Townhall is not, repeat not, a newsmagazine. If you don't, can't or won't understand that, you''re in the wrong profession.

>
>Some articles include almost
> no relevant sources at all. Many articles also score poorly due to
> highly biased language and headlines, suggesting that articles aim to
> elicit an emotional response rather than neutrally convey information.
>

Yup, columnists universally tend to use language that their audience find acceptable. That's why they're columnists and not, for instance, journalists.
?

> Finally, the site receives mixed scores for author expertise, which
> suggests that authors for Townhall either rarely cover the same topics
> consistently, a sign of low topical expertise, or fail to write
> high-quality content generally."
>

Generic bullshit from a bunch of biased fools or incompetents; there are no alternative categories for these clowns, unnamed by Scharfie, who tries to pretend they're qualified to judge Townhall, and by implication me. They're out of their class, as I just demonstrated.

>
> Actually, it's amazing that they got such a high factual grade.
>

And here's Scharfie, predictably making a fool of himself by agreeing with fools.
>
Andre Jute
These are presumably educated people. They must be a real embarrassment to other alumni at the institutions which mendaciously punched their tickets.

[Andre Jute]

These monkeys that Scharfie is dumb enough to recommend can't even distinguish between a newsmagazine and one full of opinion pieces written by columnists. Their clear bias and their obvious stupidity which I've demonstrated in another post in this thread, totally disqualifies them from passing judgement on any media.
>
It would be amusing to discover whether they rate any left-wing journal as low as they rate Townhall but I can't be bothered.
>
Unsigned out of contempt for Scharfie's champion and for Scharfie himself.

[Andre Jute]

On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 3:11:21 AM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:29:10 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
> >Actually, it's amazing that they got such a high factual grade.
> The problem I was addressing was not so much the distortions of
> TownHall, but rather the authors of the paper taking great liberties
> with the data by not disclosing the details of their sources of
> information and possibly the omission of source data.
>

WTF is this, Jeff? They told you where they got the data, and you acknowledged that you know that by quoting them on it. That is not "taking great liberties" as you try to make out.

>
> and possibly the omission of source data.
>

WTF is this, Jeff? It's your unfounded opinion, in a post in which you condemn researchers for what you claim is unfounded opinion. "Possible" -- my arse. Prove it and we can talk again. Until then, everything from you is unfounded sneers and innuendo.

>
> TownHall might
> be guilty of finding and publishing only papers that fit their agenda,
> but almost everyone does that. However the authors of the paper
> seemed to be favoring a sensationalist approach to their conclusions
> based on a tiny statistical sample that would certainly be rejected by
> a peer review.
>

Not if their peers are medical researchers in the same field. I ask you again, Jeff, would you rather they waited until a thousand vaccinees had died of unexplained heart attacks before they published?

>
> I was really amazed at the huge amount of irrelevant
> detail they provided on their procedures, while not mentioning
> anything about their source of statistical data.
>

Here we go again. You've reprinted their source of information from their report. Are you blind, Jeff, or is your memory going, or what?
>
From you earlier letter, and extract made by *you* from their report, apparently by some kind of magic without reading it:

>> "Data on autopsies of persons, who received anti-SARS-
>> CoV-2 vaccination (up to 20 days before their death), were
>> obtained from the COVID autopsy and biomaterial registry
>> Baden-Württemberg."
>

QED.

>
> I've seen this
> before, where the authors are looking for funding for additional
> research or need additional research credits on their resume.
>

Mindless speculation intended to throw a cloud of doubt over the researchers. If you can prove any of your sneers, Jeff, you should do so, otherwise you should retract them. Where I live, that paragraph by you above is enough to see you in court charged with libel.

>
> Also, Andre should get some kind of credit for accepting the TownHall
> article at face value,
>

More of the same. The face value of the article is that the Surgeon-General of Florida, with the Governor of Florida standing behind him, mentioned the findings of the article. If you, Jeff, a California repairman of electrical appliances, think the Surgeon-General isn't a fit person to judge the research report, you should explain why. I take him at face value, the same way I took Fauci at face value until he gave me reason to mistrust him.

>
> while not bothering to research the source of
> the TownHall article and questioning its data and the validity of its
> "results". I expected better from him.
>

WTF are you on about now, Jeff. What, I should not be allowed to cite an article until I had researched every word in it? And then perhaps come here and write reams of sneers and innuendo, as you and Scharfie are doing? You're off your rocker.dd
>
Unsigned for the usual reason. I've had enough of this wannabe-clever crap.

[Andre Jute]

This from Tom is interesting;

> I analyzed the deaths in northern Italy and plainly it was no danger.
> So why did they put a full court press on vaccines?
>

Interestingly, Northern Italy has a huge population of itinerant Chinese workers, and a great many of them are from Wuhan, where COVID-19, the cause of the Chinese Pandemic, originated. Northern Italy is at the end of controlled atmosphere ride from Wuhan airport. So, if any region suffered more deaths from Covid than others, Northern Italy should show something clear and inarguable in their statistics. If it doesn't, I'm willing to take that as a very strong indication that governments overreacted to a paper tiger. -- AJ

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 8:31:42 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:11:38 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Yup! More evidence emerges to prove Tom was right and you monkeys who swallowed the lies of the Administration wholesale, and abused Tom for being smarter than you are, are still stoopid. Gee, who coulda guessed?
> >
> >https://townhall.com/tipsheet/saraharnold/2022/12/09/florida-surgeon-general-reveals-scary-risks-associated-with-covid-jabs-n2616980
> >
> >Andre Jute
> >I don't have to guess: I'm a scary judge of character and you clowns were obviously born lemmings.
> >>
> Nice of TownHaul to not include a link to the research report:
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365782650_Autopsy-based_histopathological_characterization_of_myocarditis_after_anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination>
> Original Paper (11 pages PDF):
> <https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Clinical-Research-in-Cardiology-1861-0692/publication/365782650_Autopsy-based_histopathological_characterization_of_myocarditis_after_anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination/links/6384224ec2cb154d29351bb3/Autopsy-based-histopathological-characterization-of-myocarditis-after-anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination.pdf>
>
> Nice report. No raw data. Supplements mentioned seem to be missing.
> No range of dates for the data collected. No test for statistical
> significance.
>

Very clearly a poorly researched and biased report. This isn't how science is done. But, as pointed out previously, andre thinks any science he agrees with is good science.

[Tom Kunich]

One of the interesting stupidities of Liebermann is that he doesn't realize, and never had the brains to, that medical examiners are often described as failed MD's that have to resort to autopsies to make a living. That should have been clear to anyone with a single brain in their head by reading those papers. In what way do people dying from the mRNA vaccine make it less the fault of the vaccine simply because they have comorbities?

Virtually ALL of the claimed covid-19 deaths are from people with usually many comorbities and either from the additional load of the disease (which would be an equal outcome with a bad influenza) or effects of the vaccine WHICH THEY discovered in all 25 of these deaths.

But Liebermann with all of his hard earned knowledge of medicine which he gained by repairing ink jet printers to put food on the table can't see that.

[Tom Kunich]

Clearly that was the source of covid-19. But my analysis was the age and healthy of the people dying. Northern Italy happens to have one of the largest and sickest populations of very old people in Europe. Influenza could have equally ravaged it. But Covid-19 has a far higher infection rate since it is so easily airborne.

[Frank Krygowski]

And to examine the problem's next step: Of course, those who love
Townhall will say "Well, the people doing the rating are just biased."

And how do they prove the bias? Ultimately, as with Tom, any agency that
disagrees with their views must be wrong.

So evidence, history, qualifications, data etc. don't matter. Their own
opinion is the final authority. In their own minds, that is.



--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Does it surprise you that Scharf who proclaimed himself a Republican so that he could run in a very conservative district uses a FACT CHECK site that opinionates what are and what aren't facts? These people have already been outed like Scharf was when the electorate watched him in action and clearly observed that he was RINO.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 21:37:09 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>WTF is this, Jeff? They told you where they got the data,

No, they didn't. The report claimed it came from said:

>>> "Data on autopsies of persons, who received anti-SARS-
>>> CoV-2 vaccination (up to 20 days before their death), were
>>> obtained from the COVID autopsy and biomaterial registry
>>> Baden-Württemberg."

with no pointers to the actual data pool, project name or time period
involved. I did find that there is a biomaterial registry involved in
Covid-19 research at Baden-Württemberg:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=biomaterial+registry+Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg>
This give a description of what they're doing:
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9250824/> (2022 Jul 3)
I already see some potential problems with time span and number of
autopsies. By the time of the report, it looks like they only had
data from March 2020 to December 2021 and a total of 250 autopsy
reports. That seems like a rather small sample.

However, I have a problem today. It rained hard yesterday and I have
friends and neighbors who need my help patching their roofs and
chainsawing downed branches before the next rain storm arrives. I'll
hopefully be back to answer your accusations on Monday evening, when
the rain is predicted to stop. Meanwhile, enjoy the view:
<https://zoom.earth/maps/precipitation/#view=38.37,-116.95,6z/model=icon/overlays=wind>

[John B.]

I see. You condemn Tom, saying that "So evidence, history,
qualifications, data etc. don't matter" when you, yourself, having
been shown the evidence and data to demonstrate that the AR type rifle
is actually used in very, very, few cases of forearm homicide, refuse
to acknowledge the fact.

Tell us Frank, are you actually so stupid that you can not understand
documented facts?
Or perhaps your ego is such that you are unable to admit that you are
wrong?
Or you are just another liar like Tommy?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/11/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> You condemn Tom, saying that "So evidence, history,
> qualifications, data etc. don't matter" when you, yourself, having
> been shown the evidence and data to demonstrate that the AR type rifle
> is actually used in very, very, few cases of forearm homicide, refuse
> to acknowledge the fact.

AR types are used in many murders. They are "very few" only if counted
percentage-wise; and that's only because America has such a grossly high
number of firearm murders.

ARs are used in almost every high volume mass murder - those that kill
rooms full of people. They've killed dozens of little kids at a time.
They've killed congregations of worshippers and piles of music
listeners. And based on your lack of answers to the question, they've
done no _practical_ good at all. None.

They fail based on detriments greatly exceeding benefits.

> Or you are just another liar like Tommy?

You should be wondering: How weak is your position if Tommy is arguing
what you're arguing? You're allying yourself with a fool.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Now you make positive statements about how dangerious AR type firearms
that just aren't true. Andrew just the other day provided you with a
list of "mass shootings" and the weapons used. Strangely the list
showed that AR types were used in a small percentage of the total. But
apparently you ignore it as, of course, it doesn't agree with your
imaginary "facts".

So tell us Frank, are you so stupid that you can't read a list and
understand it? Are you emotionally incapable of admitting that you are
wrong? Or have you fallen back on lies to justify your fantasies?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

Hey, Frankie-boy, you're in my thread, rabbiting on about rifles. You're weren't invited and you aren't wanted. Piss off.
>

[sms]

The fact that his only reference is the discredited "townhall.com"
speaks volumes about his knowledge of science.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 20:31:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/11/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> You condemn Tom, saying that "So evidence, history,
>> qualifications, data etc. don't matter" when you, yourself, having
>> been shown the evidence and data to demonstrate that the AR type rifle
>> is actually used in very, very, few cases of forearm homicide, refuse
>> to acknowledge the fact.
>
>AR types are used in many murders. They are "very few" only if counted
>percentage-wise; and that's only because America has such a grossly high
>number of firearm murders.
>
>ARs are used in almost every high volume mass murder - those that kill
>rooms full of people. They've killed dozens of little kids at a time.
>They've killed congregations of worshippers and piles of music
>listeners. And based on your lack of answers to the question, they've
>done no _practical_ good at all. None.
>
>They fail based on detriments greatly exceeding benefits.

Failed what> Your approval?

> > Or you are just another liar like Tommy?
>
>You should be wondering: How weak is your position if Tommy is arguing
>what you're arguing? You're allying yourself with a fool.

More irony from Krygowski who allies himself with Joe Biden.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Hey McCoy, You're in a cycling forum rabbiting on about covid. You weren't invited and you aren't wanted. Shut the fuck up.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Gee johnny, do you think maybe people who have been shown documented facts about the lethality of small caliber rounds yet continue to insist they aren't recommended for anything larger than a gopher are stupid or lying? (don't try to claim ballistics data haven't been posted in this forum repeatedly, you know it has.)

[Tom Kunich]

He thinks that the more he writes the more than anyone other than Scharf and Flunky are going to agree with him. Apparently he cannot read.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/11/2022 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 20:31:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> AR types are used in many murders. They are "very few" only if counted
>> percentage-wise; and that's only because America has such a grossly high
>> number of firearm murders.
>>
>> ARs are used in almost every high volume mass murder - those that kill
>> rooms full of people. They've killed dozens of little kids at a time.
>> They've killed congregations of worshippers and piles of music
>> listeners. And based on your lack of answers to the question, they've
>> done no _practical_ good at all. None.
>>
>> They fail based on detriments greatly exceeding benefits.
>>

>>> [JB] Or you are just another liar like Tommy?

>>
>> You should be wondering: How weak is your position if Tommy is arguing
>> what you're arguing? You're allying yourself with a fool.
>

> Now you make positive statements about how dangerious [sic] AR type

firearms
> that just aren't true.

It just isn't true that AR type firearms are dangerous?

June 20, 2012: Aurora, Colo. 12 dead, 58 wounded

Dec. 14, 2012: Newtown, Conn., 27 dead

Dec. 2, 2015: San Bernardino, Calif 14 dead, 21 wounded

June 12, 2016: Orlando 49 dead 50 wounded

Oct. 1, 2017: Las Vegas 58 dead, hundreds wounded

Nov. 5, 2017: Sutherland Springs, Texas 26 dead

Feb. 14, 2018: Parkland, Fla. 17 dead

Aug. 4, 2019: Dayton, Ohio 10 dead, 27 wounded even though cops
stopped him in less than a minute

Aug. 3, 2019: El Paso, TX 23 dead, 23 wounded

Mar. 22, 2021: Boulder, CO 10 dead, 2 wounded

May 14, 2022: Buffalo, NY 10 dead, 3 wounded

May 24, 2022: Uvalde, TX 22 dead, 18 wounded

Those are just the AR atrocities I've found where the count of the dead
reached double digits. I'm omitting incidents where the dead were 9 or
fewer. Still, that's 279 victims whose families would say that yes,
those guns are unusually dangerous.

279 extreme disadvantages, not even counting the wounded, not even
counting smaller scale massacres.

And you can't even give one practical advantage of having those in
private hands.

So you avoid that issue and give childish insults. You're not looking
very smart.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:39:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/11/2022 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 20:31:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> AR types are used in many murders. They are "very few" only if counted
> >> percentage-wise; and that's only because America has such a grossly high
> >> number of firearm murders.
> >>
> >> ARs are used in almost every high volume mass murder - those that kill
> >> rooms full of people. They've killed dozens of little kids at a time.
> >> They've killed congregations of worshippers and piles of music
> >> listeners. And based on your lack of answers to the question, they've
> >> done no _practical_ good at all. None.
> >>
> >> They fail based on detriments greatly exceeding benefits.
> >>
> >>> [JB] Or you are just another liar like Tommy?
> >>
> >> You should be wondering: How weak is your position if Tommy is arguing
> >> what you're arguing? You're allying yourself with a fool.
> >
> > Now you make positive statements about how dangerious [sic] AR type
>firearms
> > that just aren't true.
>
>It just isn't true that AR type firearms are dangerous?

Nope, the guns aren't dangerous, but the people shooting them are.
Take away the AR15s and they'll find another way to kill. ONly way to
stop the killers is to lock them up.

[AMuzi]

279 over ten years. No one is disputing that.

Weekend pistol tally for a typical weekend in one city:

https://www.audacy.com/wbbm780/news/local/25-people-shot-6-fatally-in-chicago-shootings-over-weekend

Years pass between rifle murders in Chicago (as most cities).

This year is a happy 3455 compared to last year's total of
3747 shot.

http://heyjackass.com/

On the other hand, 19 days more to go.
On the other other hand, the New Year's eve tally (often
quite high) scores to 2023 after midnight.

One city. One year.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

You're forgetting those especially deadly features of an AR15 that make them preferred by weekday shooters.

[Andre Jute]

Science is empirically falsifiable knowledge. Flunky disputes it. Scharfie agrees with Flunky. Flunky won't say what his idea of science is. Scharfie thinks science and Scientology is the same. Flunky and Scharfie should take a motel room together and fondle the fat around each other's waist. That's about as near to science as they'll come.
>
Andre Jute
Given on my own authority.

[Andre Jute]

That's the difference between you and me, cowardly anonymous Flunky: I just want Krygowski to fuck out of my threads unless he can stay on topic. You want to shut me up altogether because you can't argue facts with me, and you don't have what it takes to go face to face with me in a slanging match, you poor little man. -- Unsigned out of contempt.
>

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 1:26:33 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

But according to Krygowski, that AR15 is so more dangerous than a pistol (S & W 1911 .45's seem to be most easily available) that they absolutely must be banned.

I've been saying the Frank is really stupid for years. I am curious as to why he feels the need to prove it virtually every day.

[John B.]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:39:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski

So, in 10 years there were 279 AR deaths, or some 27.9 per year.

And in one year alone, 2020, there were 891 bicycle deaths.

Do you want to go on about the terrifying dangers of the infernal AR?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Read the overnight crime reports for a few weeks and you'll
see almost exclusively striker-fired 9mm L, .380/.40 ACP.

Almost no M1911. Or rifles for that matter.

[Tom Kunich]

I was referring to 1911 type. .45's were especially common for a long while because everyone brought them home from the war. And because there were a billion rounds of army surplus ammunition around after the war. Because of this most of the gun companies made 1911 designed automatics. It is difficult to find a different design. There were several other designs for automatics but you rarely see them. The Luger design worked very reliably but I suppose there was a pox on them.

I don't even know if there are army/navy surplus stores anymore. We used to have 3 or 4 of them down by the Oakland Airport and you could buy boxes of 50 rounds of .45 for less than a dollar. 150 rounds of 30-06 for the same. I think that there is a shooting program where I could buy an M1 today for $50. Though they are now so old that they are pretty beat up. If you're a Boy Scout you can get them refurbished for the same. So they used to have Scout days at shooting ranges until people like Frank cried alligator tears about it.

[Andre Jute]

I'm not generally a gun person. I live in a country where my hunting rifles were kept in my gunsmith's safe for many years until I sold them when I realised I was never returning to Africa.
>
But that idiot Krygowski is going to turn me into a gun person by his stubborn wrongheaded stupidity.
>
Andre Jute
Why are there so may patent idiots on RBT? My Facebook group has more than ten thousand times as many members, all of them guaranteed by the vetting process to be at least smarter than Krygowski, and none of them seem inclined to make fools of themselves for obscene obsessions like some RBTers.
>

[Andre Jute]

That's unfair, Andrew. Frank can't discuss Chicago gun deaths, or any other black on black gun deaths, or other black crimes. The Donkey Party will ostracise him if he does.
>
Andre Jute
Chairman, Society for the Protection Against Reality of Foolish Frankie-boy Krygowski
>
PS And anyhow, Kim Foxx, DA of Cook County, has declared black gangbangers killing each other, and innocent bystanders, to be "mutual combat", not prosecutable murders. Seems pretty racist to me, but Foolish Franki-boy will be here shortly to defend Ms Foxx.
>

[Catrike Rider]

I'm partial to hammer-fired SA/DA. Springfireld made a slick little
hammer-fired version of the XD. I bought one before they stopped
making it.

[John B.]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:24:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Well, that makes sense. Try tucking an AR in your hip pocket and
walking down the street :-)

The M1911, I always thought was "over kill" as a hand gun. The recoil
IS rather much. It was said to have been developed to stop frenzied
Filipino insurgents who were out of their mind on narcotics, but that
really seems unlikely as in a standard army "Company" there are 4 - 5
Officers carrying hand guns and as many as 200 troops carrying rifles
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

> That's unfair, Andrew. Frank can't discuss Chicago gun deaths, or any other black on black gun deaths, or other black crimes. The Donkey Party will ostracise him if he does.
>>
> Andre Jute
> Chairman, Society for the Protection Against Reality of Foolish Frankie-boy Krygowski
>>
> PS And anyhow, Kim Foxx, DA of Cook County, has declared black gangbangers killing each other, and innocent bystanders, to be "mutual combat", not prosecutable murders. Seems pretty racist to me, but Foolish Franki-boy will be here shortly to defend Ms Foxx.
>>

Chicago, while declining in population, is still a large
city. Several mid size urban areas suffer higher firearms
injury/death rates per population. I just happen to listen
to Chicago early radio news daily (having given up hope for
the once-great Chicago Tribune)

[AMuzi]

"When the military fought the Tausug Guerillas during the
Moro rebellion, it found the 38 Colt cartridge weak and
anemic. So a colonel and a major began shooting cadavers
with various calibers to see what did the most damage. The
results of this test led the Army to require their next
pistol to fire a projectile .45 inches in diameter."

https://sofrep.com/gear/the-m1911-warhorse-everything-you-should-know-about-it/

[John B.]

Oh My God! That means that the 1911 is a "war weapon". They must be
banned!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Should we wait to see what's used on the next room full of school
children? Or don't they matter?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

recent school shootings:
https://www.wistv.com/2022/12/08/orangeburg-wilkinson-high-school-shooting-survivor-allegedly-murdered/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/new-mexico-state-police-release-fatal-campus-shooting-video/ar-AA153Nch

https://www.timesnownews.com/world/brazil-school-shooting-watch-the-moment-16-year-old-former-student-opened-fire-killing-3-shooter-arrested-article-95784534

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/university-virginia-shooting-suspect-search/index.html

https://6abc.com/overbrook-high-school-shooting-students-shot-philadelphia-police/12485459/

all pistols.

[Bob F]

On 12/10/2022 2:11 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> Yup! More evidence emerges to prove Tom was right and you monkeys who swallowed the lies of the Administration wholesale, and abused Tom for being smarter than you are, are still stoopid. Gee, who coulda guessed?
>
> https://townhall.com/tipsheet/saraharnold/2022/12/09/florida-surgeon-general-reveals-scary-risks-associated-with-covid-jabs-n2616980
>
> Andre Jute
> I don't have to guess: I'm a scary judge of character and you clowns were obviously born lemmings.
>>

That Florida "surgeon general" is a well know total anti-vaccine hack.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-state-of-florida-spreads-antivaccine-disinformation-disguised-as-an-epidemiological-study/

[John B.]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 21:09:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Gee, Andrew just posted 5, yes 5, school shootings all less then a
month ago, and at least 1 only days ago. Do we really have to wait for
the next one?

And if the next one doesn't include mention of a AR then I suppose
that we'll have to wait for the one after that, and then the one after
that , and the next one...

Where will it end?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Perhaps one might look at the 23 (if I counted correctly) countries
with 90% or greater covid vaccination counts. If the vaccine is really
dangerious then logically the citizens of those countries must be
dropping dead in the streets.... but they aren't :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Its easy to quote what science is from google, eh skippy? I did in fact explain how science _really_ works to you, but your interest isn't in actual science, your interest is in lying about it to see how many people buy into your bullshit. You'd rather claim I never did (in other words, lie about it) - to wit: if you did have a real interest, you would have proven your association with John Popper by showing how he advised you on your dissertation. In fact, you can't even tell us what your dissertation was. In other words, lie followed with lies - that's the Andre McCoy way. No one believes you, your not wanted here, piss off little twat.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

More hypocrisy from andre the welfare queen - we notice you have no problem with kitty, the admitted coward whoa actually demands anonymity.

> I just want Krygowski to fuck out of my threads unless he can stay on topic.

Another lie - you want frank off RBT.

> You want to shut me up altogether because you can't argue facts with me,

Facts? You mean like backing up your claim that you worked with popper? Tell ya what skippy, the next time you post an actual fact, you be sure and let us know.

> and you don't have what it takes to go face to face with me in a slanging match, you poor little man

Sure skippy, You're such a master debater that you claim to be able to 'set me straight' (or whatever quaint little turn of phrase you hijack in the moment) yet in every case you slink away from me with your tail between your legs, unable to provide any "facts" to back up your ridiculous claims. You couldn't debate yourself out a wet paper bag.

> Unsigned out of contempt.

oh, I'm so hurt, andwe didn't sign his message to me, boohoo...

Fuck off you ignorant dweeb. Isn't there a welfare queue you should be lining up for? I hear the Irish national healthcare system leaves a bit to be desired.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

In fact (yes andre, _FACT_) desantis hired Ladapo _specifically_ becasue he was an anti-vaccine hack who was more than willing to manipulate covid information to the extent that they sent their minions after whistle-blowers
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/06/04/florida-whistleblower-rebekah-jones-gives-a-look-behind-the-scenes/
"Sworn affidavits from DOH leaders acknowledge Jones’ often-denied claim that she was told to remove data from public access"

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 21:09:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski

More fear mongering..

[Frank Krygowski]

One shot here, one shot there, three shot there, one didn't even have
any fatalities...

Obviously the shooters you chose were using the wrong tool.

I was envisioning rooms full of dead kids, as has happened in the past.

BUT:

If you want to put big restrictions on handguns, I promise not to argue
against you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

No one is defending homicidal maniacs, especially child
killers. Fortunately they are extremely rare outliers.

Rifles generally, and moreso AR platform firearms, are
statistically irrelevant to criminal deaths, even to
firearms homicide.

Wishing firearms away is not a plan. 'Banning' firearms is
just not going to happen in our country, founded on
individual liberty. It just won't happen. Any serious
attempt to disarm half the population is a nonstarter and a
completely stupid way to further avoid the necessary removal
of criminals from our midst.

[Catrike Rider]

Some people, usually liberally bent people, are so devoid of
independant, innovative thinking, themselves, that they cannot imagine
a person intent on mass murder couldn't come up with another way of
doing it. They think the potential mass murderer will loose their
murdering intent if they can't get their hands on an AR15.

[AMuzi]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/not-just-sandy-hook-chinas-terrifying-knife-attacks

[Catrike Rider]

Unfortunately, there are other ways to commit mass murder. Some of
them are more destructive and can kill more people than what can be
done with a semi-automatic rifle.

[Tom Kunich]

Perhaps you can explain to us all why the CDC said that the mRNA vaccines were completely ineffective and you're calling the Surgeon General of Florida "antivax"?

Can you explain your medical training to suggest how you could comment on a surgeon generals opinion?

Or perhaps you could explain why the vaccination rate was very low in Florida and yet the incidence of deaths from covid-19 among the age group of 49 up was the same as other states and the incidence of deaths in the under 49 was lower than states with high rates of vaccination?

Don't you think it odd that now that Fauci cannot effect the statistics that they are shown to be only 60% complete? How could they be claiming millions of deaths if they, in fact, didn't have the data? And before the CDC started fiddling with the statistics page, it showed that only 8854 people died directly from covid-19, that those deaths were in late March and early April of 2020 and after that deaths from undefined respiratory diseases (covid-19) were significantly below normal?

Tell us all, if a person has multiple heart diseases and contracts the flu which is one more load on his system and dies, did he die from the flu or did he die from the heart diseases that made him so weak that he couldn't withstand influenza?

Perhaps if you don't understand these things you shouldn't be making wiseass comments as if you did?

[Tom Kunich]

One of the deadliest items possible is a bomb. Thery are far too easily made with household or easily available chemicals. And what is that ignorant fool of a Krygowski blathering on about? a gun that is used in a miniscule percentage of murders, let alone mass murders. Maybe Frank should be demanding that chemistry not be taught in high school. Take away other forms of mass murder and what you have left is bombs. Whyt he could even claim that children that go to college are less likely to commit mass murder and delay chemistry until then.

[Frank Krygowski]

How about if we start with calling out the macho types who like to
intimidate people with their play toys?

And point out that pretending to be a soldier is for children?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/13/2022 5:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> One of the deadliest items possible is a bomb.

True. A bomb thrown into a classroom could easily kill 20 kids. And like
ARs, they have no legitimate use by civilians.

So should those be as legal as AR rifles? Is that the next step for
quasi-military insanity?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/13/2022 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Can you explain your medical training to suggest how you could comment on a surgeon generals opinion?

Say, about that, Tom... :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

You're in my thread, Frankie-boy Krygowski. Your vapid smileys are adding nothing to the discourse. Piss off.
>

[Catrike Rider]

Is Frank really so dumb as to have missed the point, or is he just
avoiding the cold hard fact that eliminating AR15s will not prevent
mass murders..

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

shut the fuck up you hypocrite.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 22:56:20 -0500, Frank Krygowski

<chuckle> Krygowski thinks "calling out" somebody will make them
agree to his demands. Group thinking followers like Frank have
trouble understanding that many people are not motivated by a need to
conform.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 4:41:55 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 7:09:12 PM UTC-8, Bob F wrote:
> > On 12/10/2022 2:11 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > Yup! More evidence emerges to prove Tom was right and you monkeys who swallowed the lies of the Administration wholesale, and abused Tom for being smarter than you are, are still stoopid. Gee, who coulda guessed?
> > >
> > > https://townhall.com/tipsheet/saraharnold/2022/12/09/florida-surgeon-general-reveals-scary-risks-associated-with-covid-jabs-n2616980
> > >
> > > Andre Jute
> > > I don't have to guess: I'm a scary judge of character and you clowns were obviously born lemmings.
> > >>
> > That Florida "surgeon general" is a well know total anti-vaccine hack.
> >
> > https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-state-of-florida-spreads-antivaccine-disinformation-disguised-as-an-epidemiological-study/

And here we see tommy pissing about in andres thread, spreading more lies. But andre's ok with that, becasue his interpretation of 'good science' is anything that he agrees with.

> Perhaps you can explain to us all why the CDC said that the mRNA vaccines were completely ineffective

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7142a4.htm
"VE against COVID-19–related hospitalization among adults with immunocompromising conditions hospitalized for COVID-like illness during Omicron predominance was 36% ≥14 days after dose 2, 69% 7–89 days after dose 3, and 44% ≥90 days after dose 3."

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj-2021-069761
"Effectiveness of the mRNA vaccines to prevent covid-19 associated hospital admissions was 85% (95% confidence interval 82% to 88%) for two vaccine doses against the alpha variant, 85% (83% to 87%) for two doses against the delta variant, 94% (92% to 95%) for three doses against the delta variant, 65% (51% to 75%) for two doses against the omicron variant; and 86% (77% to 91%) for three doses against the omicron variant."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00677-0/fulltext
" Vaccine efficacy against moderate-to-severe COVID-19 was 70·7%"

IOW - The CDC said the exact opposite.

> and you're calling the Surgeon General of Florida "antivax"?

He is. So are you. You have a problem with it?

> Can you explain your medical training to suggest how you could comment on a surgeon generals opinion?

You first - and no, your claims to have discovered HIV because you worked at a company that developed the PCR testing equipment (_after_ the virus was actually discovered) doesn't qualify you for anything except lying about it.

> Or perhaps you could explain why the vaccination rate was very low in Florida and yet the incidence of deaths from covid-19 among the age group of 49 up was the same as other states and the incidence of deaths in the under 49 was lower than states with high rates of vaccination?

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/7/17/21324398/florida-coronavirus-covid-cases-deaths-outbreak
"Florida’s governor took a victory lap on the coronavirus. Now his state has the most cases in the US." - dumbass....

> Don't you think it odd that now that Fauci cannot effect the statistics that they are shown to be only 60% complete? How could they be claiming millions of deaths if they, in fact, didn't have the data?

And here we see how tommy the polymath manages to fuck up basic statistics.

> And before the CDC started fiddling with the statistics page, it showed that only 8854 people died directly from covid-19, that those deaths were in late March and early April of 2020 and after that deaths from undefined respiratory diseases (covid-19) were significantly below normal?

The CDC never 'fiddled' with the statistics page you idiot. What happened was you lied about how to read the page, got caught in the lie, now you have to lie about it.

> Tell us all, if a person has multiple heart diseases and contracts the flu which is one more load on his system and dies, did he die from the flu or did he die from the heart diseases that made him so weak that he couldn't withstand influenza?

And here we see tommy's ignorance - or perhaps just blatantly lying - over the concept of 'complicating factors'.

> Perhaps if you don't understand these things you shouldn't be making wiseass comments as if you did?

Right back atcha, dumbass.

Hey andre, I'm in your thread, Care to argue any facts or are you just going to slink away with your tail between your legs like usual?

[AMuzi]

>> individual liberty. It just won't happen. Any serious

>> attempt to disarm half the population is a nonstarter and
>> a completely stupid way to further avoid the necessary
>> removal of criminals from our midst.
>
> How about if we start with calling out the macho types who
> like to intimidate people with their play toys?
>
> And point out that pretending to be a soldier is for children?
>
>

We have common ground here. IMHO the idiots among us give
the other ~150 million firearms owners a bad name. As do
redlight runners on bicycles, drunks piloting autos and
sports fans who can't resist punching some poor sap in the
other color clothing.

[AMuzi]

When you successfully legislate against immigrant jihadis on
welfare making pressure cooker bombs, get back to us.

https://www.history.com/topics/21st-century/boston-marathon-bombings

Or perhaps the pressure cooker was not the crucial factor in
the deaths/maimings in Boston.

https://www.history.com/topics/21st-century/boston-marathon-bombings

[Tom Kunich]

Apparently Frank's Alzheimer's is getting the better of him. I worked on many medical machines supervised directly by medical doctors and specialists. I wonder what Frank has ever done except snivel about my not having done so despite it being in my resume. To get a new job they would obviously have called my last and inquire as to if I had done what I claimed to have done in my resume. But since Frank has no resume nothing he claims to have ever done is verifiable. And even though he claims to have taught Mechanical Engineering, the school lists him as teaching Industial Engineering so, who is it there that is provably telling the truth and who not?

Frank again and again is showing himself to be mentally deteriorating. But latest analysis of the covid-19 mRNA vaccines have shown this to be one of the long term side effect. It appears that it is very likely the manufacturers of the mRNA vaccines are going to be sued by the British and they are not protected by Biden's claim of legal immunity. If this proves that indeed 1 out of 10 children under 6 are hospitalized because of the nRNA vaccines this will be taken to the Supreme Court which will annul any legal protection for the makers of mRNA vaccines.

Now it is growing more clear that the long term effects of the vaccines may not show up for a year or longer and be very serious indeed. Hardening of the arteries due to immune system reaction to the covid-19 spike protein which was the target of the mRNA vaccines instead of the body components of the SARS-Cov-2 virus and if the testing was even honestly reported it was completely inadequate. The absolute failure of these vaccines has been reported by Great Britain - even in the Parliament - and just as hideously by Israeli medical studies.

[Tom Kunich]

He could possibly be missing the point, Alzheimer's is excessively high and appears to be only among those that were vaccinated with mRNA vaccines for covid-19.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/14/2022 10:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 4:13:30 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 12/13/2022 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you explain your medical training to suggest how you could comment on a surgeon generals opinion?
>>> Say, about that, Tom... :-)
>>>

>>> I worked on many medical machines supervised directly by medical doctors and specialists.

You programmed simple motion control internal to a device smaller than a
microwave oven - something my students could have done with ease. That
does not constitute "medical training," Tom, even if it was a medical
doctor who told you "Make it go there."

Your claim constitutes gross exaggeration by a self-trained technician
who could never keep a job for more than a couple years.

The rest of your decades of hopping from job to job had nothing to do
with medicine at all. From what we can tell, you've got no successful
"training."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/14/2022 8:49 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/13/2022 9:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 12/13/2022 5:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> One of the deadliest items possible is a bomb.
>>
>> True. A bomb thrown into a classroom could easily kill 20
>> kids. And like ARs, they have no legitimate use by civilians.
>>
>> So should those be as legal as AR rifles? Is that the next
>> step for quasi-military insanity?
>>
>
> When you successfully legislate against immigrant jihadis on welfare
> making pressure cooker bombs, get back to us.

OK, I just took care of that. From now on you'll see no more pressure
cooker bombs set off by immigrant jihadis.

You're welcome.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

Yo, Frankie-boy Krygowski, you're in my thread making childish comments and giving all cyclists a bad name. Fuck off, will you, so the good people can undo the damage you've done. -- Andre Jute
>

[Tom Kunich]

Again Krygowski shows his advancing Alsheimer's. He clearly compared a bomb as less of a threat than an AR15. Soon he and Flunky will become lovers and Flunky can "race" on the back of Krygowski's tandem.

[Andre Jute]

Disgusting image! -- AJ
>

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 9:48:11 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:39:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 12/11/2022 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:

> > > On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 20:31:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> AR types are used in many murders. They are "very few" only if counted
> > >> percentage-wise; and that's only because America has such a grossly high
> > >> number of firearm murders.
> > >>
> > >> ARs are used in almost every high volume mass murder - those that kill
> > >> rooms full of people. They've killed dozens of little kids at a time.
> > >> They've killed congregations of worshippers and piles of music
> > >> listeners. And based on your lack of answers to the question, they've
> > >> done no _practical_ good at all. None.
> > >>
> > >> They fail based on detriments greatly exceeding benefits.
> > >>
> > >>> [JB] Or you are just another liar like Tommy?
> > >>
> > >> You should be wondering: How weak is your position if Tommy is arguing
> > >> what you're arguing? You're allying yourself with a fool.
> > >
> > > Now you make positive statements about how dangerious [sic] AR type
> >firearms
> > > that just aren't true.
> >
> >It just isn't true that AR type firearms are dangerous?

> Nope, the guns aren't dangerous, but the people shooting them are.
> Take away the AR15s and they'll find another way to kill. ONly way to
> stop the killers is to lock them up.

> >June 20, 2012: Aurora, Colo. 12 dead, 58 wounded
> >
> >Dec. 14, 2012: Newtown, Conn., 27 dead
> >
> >Dec. 2, 2015: San Bernardino, Calif 14 dead, 21 wounded
> >
> >June 12, 2016: Orlando 49 dead 50 wounded
> >
> >Oct. 1, 2017: Las Vegas 58 dead, hundreds wounded
> >
> >Nov. 5, 2017: Sutherland Springs, Texas 26 dead
> >
> >Feb. 14, 2018: Parkland, Fla. 17 dead
> >
> >Aug. 4, 2019: Dayton, Ohio 10 dead, 27 wounded even though cops
> >stopped him in less than a minute
> >
> >Aug. 3, 2019: El Paso, TX 23 dead, 23 wounded
> >
> >Mar. 22, 2021: Boulder, CO 10 dead, 2 wounded
> >
> >May 14, 2022: Buffalo, NY 10 dead, 3 wounded
> >
> >May 24, 2022: Uvalde, TX 22 dead, 18 wounded
> >
> >Those are just the AR atrocities I've found where the count of the dead
> >reached double digits. I'm omitting incidents where the dead were 9 or
> >fewer. Still, that's 279 victims whose families would say that yes,
> >those guns are unusually dangerous.
> >
> >279 extreme disadvantages, not even counting the wounded, not even
> >counting smaller scale massacres.
> >
> >And you can't even give one practical advantage of having those in
> >private hands.
> >
> >So you avoid that issue and give childish insults. You're not looking
> >very smart.

According to Frank, this is harmless https://palmettostatearmory.com/panzer-m4-tactical-12-gauge-shotgun-18-5-w-fixed-skeleton-stock-black.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_deals&utm_campaign=20221214&utm_term=afternoon

But an AR15 is the most dangerous thing on this planet.

[Tom Kunich]

But they would have full approval of their great leader Biden's government. Did you know that Biden just proclaimed queer marriage legal? Apparently no one told him that Obama did that 10 years ago.

[AMuzi]

This one is an actual properly legislated law. Mr Biden
merely signed it.

[Catrike Rider]

IMHO, the governments should get entirely out of the marriage
business.

[AMuzi]

It's a State function except universalized as under the 14th
Amendment (Loving, 1967 a decision with which almost no one
disagrees).

The rub is that this new law codifies and protects religious
discrimination and child grooming.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/14/2022 6:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> According to Frank, this is harmless https://palmettostatearmory.com/panzer-m4-tactical-12-gauge-shotgun-18-5-w-fixed-skeleton-stock-black.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_deals&utm_campaign=20221214&utm_term=afternoon
>
> But an AR15 is the most dangerous thing on this planet.

Tom lacks the intellect to intelligently discuss what I've actually
said. He prefers to discuss what he imagines or pretends I've said.

Straw Man arguments are stupid and cowardly. But that's Tom.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

The problem with you, Frankie-boy, is that you have no sense of humour and therefore no idea of how ludicrous you appear in your conviction that you're qualified to be the gatekeeper, and not only the gatekeeper but the rulemaker as well. Or you'll take your bat and ball and go sulk at home. Grow up, sport.
>
Tom isn't inventing things you said and arguing against them -- what you pompously call "Straw Man arguments", complete with superfluous capitals to make you accusation sound important. What Tom is doing is demonstrating how foolish and over the top you sound by driving your arguments to their absurd conclusion. He's been doing it for years, and you haven't caught on yet. You should sit in a corner and put on your dunce's hat, and contemplate whether that isn't your fault rather than Tom's.
>
In general, you're the one who screws yourself by your navel-centric outlook and pompous self-importance, Frankie-boy, not to mention your repeatedly demonstrated talent -- apparently your only talent -- for choosing the wrong enemies, people who wouldn't even notice you if you didn't march up and self-righteously get in their faces, people who will never be impressed by you because they are far more impressive people than you will ever be, people who don't back down from confrontations with jerkoffs like you, no matter how big your gang of fellow-travelling bullyboys (with whom inevitably in time you will pick a fight, as you're now doing with Slow Johnny).
>
Andre Jute
Frankie-boy Krygowski is probably too old to learn anything. I just feel sorry for the poor fuckwit.
>

[Andre Jute]

> This is a very dangerous line being crossed. I certainly how the States will challenge Biden's immoral law all the way up to the Supreme Court. If this nonsense is not challenged, Americans will no longer be able describe their society as civilised.
>
Andre Jute
A sad day.
>

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

SCOTUS did it in 2015, you fucking idiot.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 12:06:24 AM UTC-5, andre the bloviating shitbag once again used RBT as his toilet:
>
<snipped the usual lies and ad hom hypocrisy, if so desired it can be read his post>

Hey mccoy, The problem with you is that you've long since outlived any usefulness to society in general, if you ever had anything more than a glimmer of hope in doing so to begin with. You and your favorite little mutual buttlicker tommy do nothing but invent accusations from whole cloth. Just so you understand - and we know this is a difficult concept for someone who actual excreted some excuse of fictional writing - tommy the non-white slav doesn't understand what a strawman argument is. He doesn't have the training, education, back, experience, or intellectual capacity to grasp the concept. I suspect you do, though your behaviour in this forum belies my suspicions. The only thing impressive about you and tommy the genius medical researcher are that you both continue to lie about things others did and didn't write, then write your own lies self-aggrandizing what neither of you have done, and even when caught in the lies (which _always_ happens) you instead double down ala Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf.

It's ironic, stupid, and yet comical how you still extoll your imaginary debating tactics, yet cowardly slink away from every real challenge to anything substantive you've written (I should clarify, anything _you_ consider to be substantive - in reality you haven't written anything objectively substantive for decades). Tommy's the one in the corner with the dunce cap, and you're the little yappy dog laying at his feet snapping aggressively at the ridicule tom suffers on a daily basis, only serving to complete the comical picture.

At least you take take comfort in the fact that no one here feels sorry for either of you, though that's only because we're disgusted that you've managed to live this long.

Fuck off you half-wit. no one wants you here.


> >

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 12:11:44 AM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
>
> >
> > This is a very dangerous line being crossed. I certainly how the States will challenge Biden's immoral law all the way up to the Supreme Court. If this nonsense is not challenged, Americans will no longer be able describe their society as civilised.

Gee, I guess if gay marriage is uncivilized, Ireland turned into a third-world country in 2015 when they legalized it - and there aren't any serious challenges from bigots like you to change it.

And by the way - just to explain to you how the American legislative process works (because you clearly don't) - the only thing Biden had to do with the law was to sign it. The bill was first introduced in 2009, and this time it passed with overwhelming majorities. To claim it's somehow a unilateral order from Biden only goes to show your abject ignorance of American politics. The law codifies the SCOTUS ruling in 2015 which legalized gay marriage.

> >
> Andre Jute - ignorant shitbag extraordinaire
> A sad day - is any day you decide to pollute this forum with your presence.
> >

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:28:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>
> >
> It's a State function except universalized as under the 14th
> Amendment (Loving, 1967 a decision with which almost no one
> disagrees).
>
> The rub is that this new law codifies and protects religious
> discrimination and child grooming.
> --

fer fucks sake andrew, stop parroting right-wing 'christian' nationalist opinion. The law does nothing of the kind.
There are no provisions whatsoever regarding anything having to do with children and and it explicitly protects _against_ religious discrimination - that was in fact the whole point of the law. In fact, this is from the bill:

"
SEC. 6. NO IMPACT ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AND CONSCIENCE.

(a) In General.—Nothing in this Act, or any amendment made by this Act, shall be construed to diminish or abrogate a religious liberty or conscience protection otherwise available to an individual or organization under the Constitution of the United States or Federal law.

(b) Goods Or Services.—Consistent with the First Amendment to the Constitution, nonprofit religious organizations, including churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, nondenominational ministries, interdenominational and ecumenical organizations, mission organizations, faith-based social agencies, religious educational institutions, and nonprofit entities whose principal purpose is the study, practice, or advancement of religion, and any employee of such an organization, shall not be required to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage. Any refusal under this subsection to provide such services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges shall not create any civil claim or cause of action.
"

Claims like the ones you just regurgitated are quite frankly embarrassing, and only serve to inflame those too ignorant and/or arrogant (e.g tom and andre) to understand what the bill is actually intended to do.

Don't be a tom or andre, Andrew, it's well-beneath you.

[Catrike Rider]

>> IMHO, the v should get entirely out of the marriage

>> business.
>>
>
>It's a State function except universalized as under the 14th
>Amendment (Loving, 1967 a decision with which almost no one
>disagrees).

I said "governments." All of them.

>The rub is that this new law codifies and protects religious
>discrimination and child grooming.

I didn't know that. I'll have to look it up.

[Rolf Mantel]

Do you mean as in 'There is no such thing as a legal marriage' or as in
'Everybody who feels that way should jut self-declare to be married'?

IMHO, it is completely impossible that governments get out entirely of
any part of the legal system. Without the power of governments behind,
what's left of any legal system?

[Catrike Rider]

Indeed, the phrase, "acting under cover of State law," is ambiguous.
It's an attempt to force force businesses, and to some extent,
individuals to provide services that their religious beliefs don't
sanction. The SCOTUS will have to decide and they've already decided
on some aspects of that particular issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colorado_Civil_Rights_Commission


On the issue of "child grooming;" I don't see it.

[Catrike Rider]

In legal terms, it's nothing more than a contract. People should be
free to make any legal contract they with to ake.

>IMHO, it is completely impossible that governments get out entirely of
>any part of the legal system.

Indeed... See my sentences above and below.

>Without the power of governments behind,
>what's left of any legal system?

The governments have power to enforce legal contracts.

[AMuzi]

On 12/15/2022 5:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:28:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>>
>> It's a State function except universalized as under the 14th
>> Amendment (Loving, 1967 a decision with which almost no one
>> disagrees).
>>
>> The rub is that this new law codifies and protects religious
>> discrimination and child grooming.
>> --
>
> fer fucks sake andrew, stop parroting right-wing 'christian' nationalist opinion. The law does nothing of the kind.
> There are no provisions whatsoever regarding anything having to do with children and and it explicitly protects _against_ religious discrimination - that was in fact the whole point of the law. In fact, this is from the bill:
>
> "
> SEC. 6. NO IMPACT ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AND CONSCIENCE.
>

> (a) In General.—Nothing in this Act, or any amendment made by this Act, shall be construed to diminish or abrogate a religious liberty or conscience protection otherwise available to an individual or organization under the Constitution of the United States or Federal law.
>
> (b) Goods Or Services.—Consistent with the First Amendment to the Constitution, nonprofit religious organizations, including churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, nondenominational ministries, interdenominational and ecumenical organizations, mission organizations, faith-based social agencies, religious educational institutions, and nonprofit entities whose principal purpose is the study, practice, or advancement of religion, and any employee of such an organization, shall not be required to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage. Any refusal under this subsection to provide such services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges shall not create any civil claim or cause of action.

> "
>
> Claims like the ones you just regurgitated are quite frankly embarrassing, and only serve to inflame those too ignorant and/or arrogant (e.g tom and andre) to understand what the bill is actually intended to do.
>
> Don't be a tom or andre, Andrew, it's well-beneath you.
>

That horse has left the barn now.
From
https://reason.com/2021/06/17/supreme-court-rules-philadelphia-cant-force-catholic-agency-to-serve-gay-foster-parents/

to
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/gay-conn-couple-accused-rape-face-trial-article-1.1310010

[AMuzi]

Marriage is unlike other contracts in that it deals with
inheritance (in lieu of a valid will) and care of minor
children, both of which are generally seen as being
necessary to an orderly society (despite various strongly
held opinions on various facets of both).

How are those student loan contracts going?

[Catrike Rider]

Inheritance and child custody issues are already decided in court
without any marriage contract. A couple's inheritance standing can be
established in the contract. It already is if there is a prenuptial
agreement.

I see marriage as just another case of governments getting involved in
private lives. There should be a way for people to contractually agree
on issues involving their personal relationships without having a
bureaucrat decide if their personal relationship is a valid one.

[Tom Kunich]

The funny thing is that Frank couldn't bully a puppy who would simply raise a leg on his shoe. It is useless in an argument because he has never had the slightest practice at it. He stood in front of children with the power of the grade book and expected them to adhere to him or else. The first time he tried that to me in a classroom setting he would be in an ambulance in short order.

And comical Fluny makes Krygowski look logical. Imagine seizing on an argument about AR15's when that wasn't and never was a military weapon? The militarized version was initially fully automatic and you cannot make a semiautomatic a reliable fully automatic without extensive changes. But Flunky in full stupid mode is trying to convince the world that stupid is better than smart.

[Tom Kunich]

The government must always be involved in marriages in which natural children can be born. Other than that let queers self declare.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 08:38:52 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>

>How are those student loan contracts going?

Looks like they're going to be held valid. It's beyond Biden's power
to invalidate them.