Maintenance advice for a 70s era ten speed

[Tim R]

My Schwinn Super LeTour from the late 1970s sits on a trainer. I use it faithfully for fitness.

I've never done maintenance other than tubes and tires, maybe a new cable once in a while, so I don't have tools or experience. It must be long overdue for some care and feeding. (and yes I'm starting to feel some roughness in the pedaling, if it's not my imagination) New bearings and grease, at least? New chain?

But, where do I start? Can I still get parts that fit, etc.?

Any suggestions are welcome. I am reasonably competent at DIY stuff.

[Tom Kunich]

If you commonly use it to train the freewheel is worn out. They are easily available and cheap. If it is worn too badly the chainrings and the chain are also gone. Be sure and use a 5-6 or 7 speed chain.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Given that it's restricted to a trainer there really isn't much to worry about.

- If there is excessive wear in the drive train (worn chain and cogs) You'll probably be able to tell by skips when you pedal very hard. It it doesn't skip at all, probably just a bit lube on the chain is sufficient.
- Pop the chain off the chairings and give the cranks a spin. It should be clean and quiet and spin several rotations freely with just a simple push. Also wiggle it from side to side - there should be no play. If there is any noise or play, it's time for a bottom bracket rebuild.
- With no load on the rear wheel give that a spin also. Other than the freewheel ratchet there shouldn't be any other noises. As with the cranks, give the wheel a side to side test, again there should be no play, any grinding or play indicates a hub rebuild.

WE can go further into hub or BB rebuilds once you let us know if there's an issue there.

You could replace the chain and freewheel and maybe get some better shifting performance, but since you didn't complain about that it's something you might not see any great benefit from.

[AMuzi]

Yes bearing service is long overdue.
Measure your chain, replace when indicated.

On a trainer you can skip brakes and front wheel, right?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tim R]

It does not seem possible that a bearing could last 50 years without service. I would probably rather do it now rather than after I'm (even) older.

The chain measures 12 1/4 inches for 12 links. Google says that means replace. It's a 70s era ten speed, so I need a chain that fits? link breaker? looking for a source.

- Pop the chain off the chairings and give the cranks a spin. It should be clean and quiet and spin several rotations freely with just a simple push. Also wiggle it from side to side - there should be no play. If there is any noise or play, it's time for a bottom bracket rebuild.

With the chain off the chain rings it catches on my cadence magnet. Steel links I guess. Wiggling it partial turns, there's no noise or resistance.

- With no load on the rear wheel give that a spin also. Other than the freewheel ratchet there shouldn't be any other noises. As with the cranks, give the wheel a side to side test, again there should be no play, any grinding or play indicates a hub rebuild.

I don't hear any rear wheel noise except the ratchet. It does start the pedals turning. Does a free wheel wear out faster on a trainer? The trainer attaches to the axle/spindle. It seems kind of silly though to go to the trouble of removing the wheel, changing the freewheel, and not doing the bearings at the same time.

It shifts okay with one exception; the rear shifter slips a bit and the little D ring needs to be retightened frequently. I took it apart, cleaned etc., slight improvement.

[AMuzi]

On 7/12/2023 9:05 AM, Tim R wrote:

> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 4:20:13 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/10/2023 1:09 PM, Tim R wrote:
>>> My Schwinn Super LeTour from the late 1970s sits on a trainer. I use it faithfully for fitness.
>>>
>>> I've never done maintenance other than tubes and tires, maybe a new cable once in a while, so I don't have tools or experience. It must be long overdue for some care and feeding. (and yes I'm starting to feel some roughness in the pedaling, if it's not my imagination) New bearings and grease, at least? New chain?
>>>
>>> But, where do I start? Can I still get parts that fit, etc.?
>>>
>>> Any suggestions are welcome. I am reasonably competent at DIY stuff.
>>>
>> Yes bearing service is long overdue.
>> Measure your chain, replace when indicated.
>>
>> On a trainer you can skip brakes and front wheel, right?
>>
>

> It does not seem possible that a bearing could last 50 years without service. I would probably rather do it now rather than after I'm (even) older.
>
> The chain measures 12 1/4 inches for 12 links. Google says that means replace. It's a 70s era ten speed, so I need a chain that fits? link breaker? looking for a source.
>
> - Pop the chain off the chairings and give the cranks a spin. It should be clean and quiet and spin several rotations freely with just a simple push. Also wiggle it from side to side - there should be no play. If there is any noise or play, it's time for a bottom bracket rebuild.
>
> With the chain off the chain rings it catches on my cadence magnet. Steel links I guess. Wiggling it partial turns, there's no noise or resistance.
>
> - With no load on the rear wheel give that a spin also. Other than the freewheel ratchet there shouldn't be any other noises. As with the cranks, give the wheel a side to side test, again there should be no play, any grinding or play indicates a hub rebuild.
>
> I don't hear any rear wheel noise except the ratchet. It does start the pedals turning. Does a free wheel wear out faster on a trainer? The trainer attaches to the axle/spindle. It seems kind of silly though to go to the trouble of removing the wheel, changing the freewheel, and not doing the bearings at the same time.
>
> It shifts okay with one exception; the rear shifter slips a bit and the little D ring needs to be retightened frequently. I took it apart, cleaned etc., slight improvement.
>

Yes, clean and lubricate crank and rear wheel bearing
ideally with new balls.

Your chain and FW are shot, replace both.
Izumi still offers a great 5/6 speed full roller chain. Many
brands no longer offer full width or rollers.

Need to remove the freewheel at any rate to clean the RH
side of the hub during rebuild.

[Tom Kunich]

I would also replace the wheels since something that old and not serviced has also worn out the races. Likely the rings and BB assembly is shot. That would be the old square drive which COULD be replaced with a sealed bearing unit and go for the rest of his life. The loose bearing unit with races would be hard to replace with a new assembly.

[Frank Krygowski]

As Andrew says, your chain is shot. Your freewheel is almost certainly
worn. (Dribbling oil into the freewheel guts will probably stop the
freewheel from spinning the cranks, but it's not worth doing if you're
replacing the freewheel.)

But can I ask, what do you intend to do with the bike? If it's going to
get only occasional use as a spare runabout low-mileage bike, it may not
justify much work or expense. It may justify shortcuts.

Example: Some bikes of that era had oil port holes in the center of each
hub. If yours has those, I'd dribble some oil in there and see how well
the wheels spin. If they spin well with no slack, I might consider that
done.

The bottom bracket is not so easy, so it should be disassembled, cleaned
and given new balls and grease. But that probably means buying some
special tools, unless it's a steel one piece crank.

I don't think anyone's mentioned the headset. I'd definitely test it. A
couple weeks ago I did a short test ride of friends' tandem, trying and
failing to hear a mystery noise they complained about. But I found that
their steering was dangerous. The headset was so worn it took physical
effort to steer and balance the bike. The headset balls had doubtlessly
worn pockets into the race, but it happened so gradually over the years
that he, riding in front, was used to it. You should be sure your
headset is not loose, not tight, and not worn that way.

But again, think about your potential use of the bike. Let that guide
you in choosing the thoroughness of your repairs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

It is not a shortcut if the balls and races are worn out. New wheels are cheap and effective. Seems to me I saw 700c new wheels cheap: https://www.ebay.com/itm/351291415429?epid=15011367307&hash=item51ca999b85:g:~eMAAOSw0e9UvmWT&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8OST%2BTMkonaRxBk8NwOY5KtkEeAs%2BYCUjEbnmfThCLgnbvUMz0SIcZwjgKc1wBsLA3JWC%2FE9oxuTjPGy8O3ThHJ96bhZKAlw1wJ8xPLS8Dnd9ddadkSRipFXRHYXJo57Jz5sbjWa2X8w85gv%2B4JIsgeIO7V5jvw3dYHsK1yZ2Syeytj6lFt%2BrjqQpHipNbpJ5H%2BAsiNevAQS6VveznUCo5RXAn8PVHXQbpilqnCv1H%2BwLfyl6HBcPVjuV%2BMMKYGckdlNRBYejYrOii2lhKCoyYRIsk6JPuNs0C%2FliyNjghm8BbWjdw5AW%2BFTj7XYhJst9g%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgJvGtali

$90 with a freewheel added on and $35 shipping. Weight and fewer spokes count for nothing on a trainer.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'd forgotten it was just for trainer use.

I very much doubt the balls and races in the bottom bracket and rear
wheel would be worn. I replace bearing balls periodically just because
it's easier than cleaning them, but back when I had far less money I
used to clean and reuse them. IME it's rare to find one that's visibly bad.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 7/12/23 7:05 AM, Tim R wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 4:20:13 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/10/2023 1:09 PM, Tim R wrote:
>>> My Schwinn Super LeTour from the late 1970s sits on a trainer. I
>>> use it faithfully for fitness.
>>>
>>> I've never done maintenance other than tubes and tires, maybe a
>>> new cable once in a while, so I don't have tools or experience.
>>> It must be long overdue for some care and feeding. (and yes I'm
>>> starting to feel some roughness in the pedaling, if it's not my
>>> imagination) New bearings and grease, at least? New chain?
>>>
>>> But, where do I start? Can I still get parts that fit, etc.?

My regular driver is a 1982 custom road bike built in Europe with about
70,000 miles on it. So far I was always able to obtain something that
fits. It looks like a mongrel now but who cares?

>>>
>>> Any suggestions are welcome. I am reasonably competent at DIY
>>> stuff.
>>>
>> Yes bearing service is long overdue. Measure your chain, replace
>> when indicated.
>>
>> On a trainer you can skip brakes and front wheel, right?

That could only move during an earthquake :-)

>>
>> -- Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/> Open every day since 1
>> April, 1971
>
> It does not seem possible that a bearing could last 50 years without
> service. I would probably rather do it now rather than after I'm
> (even) older.
>

On good products it is possible. Our basement fridge is a Bosch built in
1956. Never any maintenance, never any trouble, including its compressor
bearings. Not even the light bulb has ever dared to burn out. Bosch told
me that its European compressor would not like 60Hz yet it hangs on.

Then there is this old drill that is pre-WW2 and was used a lot, no
bearing issues:

https://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/sed/olddrill.JPG

> The chain measures 12 1/4 inches for 12 links. Google says that
> means replace. It's a 70s era ten speed, so I need a chain that
> fits? link breaker? looking for a source.
>

Yes, 12-1/4" is way past due and usually means the cassette will now
also be shot. Do not go by chain stretch alone. Modern chains often
barely stretch but the rollers and pins wear out, then gradually destroy
the cassette.

Other than that, on a trainer I'd probably go until something screeches
or falls off :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


> >>
> >> But can I ask, what do you intend to do with the bike? If it's going to
> >> get only occasional use as a spare runabout low-mileage bike, it may not
> >> justify much work or expense. It may justify shortcuts.
> >>

> I very much doubt the balls and races in the bottom bracket and rear
> wheel would be worn. I replace bearing balls periodically just because
> it's easier than cleaning them, but back when I had far less money I
> used to clean and reuse them. IME it's rare to find one that's visibly bad.
>
> --

This bike is intended as a permanent trainer. I know it was a decent frame at the time but it's been retired to the basement. (As am I to some extent.)

The headset is known to be bad. The bike was damaged when I moved to Germany, and a very good German bike shop repaired everything including truing the wheels for about $50 USD. But they told me the headset was damaged and they couldn't get a part for it.

I'm used to the current tooth combinations for various workouts I do.

It sounds like consensus is new chain and freewheel for sure, rebuild wheel and crank bearing sets maybe. So chain, link breaker, freewheel tool needed, cone wrenches a maybe, ball bearings maybe.

[AMuzi]

On 7/12/2023 11:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 7:55:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/12/2023 9:05 AM, Tim R wrote:

>>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 4:20:13 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/10/2023 1:09 PM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>> My Schwinn Super LeTour from the late 1970s sits on a trainer. I use it faithfully for fitness.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never done maintenance other than tubes and tires, maybe a new cable once in a while, so I don't have tools or experience. It must be long overdue for some care and feeding. (and yes I'm starting to feel some roughness in the pedaling, if it's not my imagination) New bearings and grease, at least? New chain?
>>>>>
>>>>> But, where do I start? Can I still get parts that fit, etc.?
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions are welcome. I am reasonably competent at DIY stuff.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes bearing service is long overdue.
>>>> Measure your chain, replace when indicated.
>>>>
>>>> On a trainer you can skip brakes and front wheel, right?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It does not seem possible that a bearing could last 50 years without service. I would probably rather do it now rather than after I'm (even) older.
>>>
>>> The chain measures 12 1/4 inches for 12 links. Google says that means replace. It's a 70s era ten speed, so I need a chain that fits? link breaker? looking for a source.
>>>
>>> - Pop the chain off the chairings and give the cranks a spin. It should be clean and quiet and spin several rotations freely with just a simple push. Also wiggle it from side to side - there should be no play. If there is any noise or play, it's time for a bottom bracket rebuild.
>>>
>>> With the chain off the chain rings it catches on my cadence magnet. Steel links I guess. Wiggling it partial turns, there's no noise or resistance.
>>>
>>> - With no load on the rear wheel give that a spin also. Other than the freewheel ratchet there shouldn't be any other noises. As with the cranks, give the wheel a side to side test, again there should be no play, any grinding or play indicates a hub rebuild.
>>>
>>> I don't hear any rear wheel noise except the ratchet. It does start the pedals turning. Does a free wheel wear out faster on a trainer? The trainer attaches to the axle/spindle. It seems kind of silly though to go to the trouble of removing the wheel, changing the freewheel, and not doing the bearings at the same time.
>>>
>>> It shifts okay with one exception; the rear shifter slips a bit and the little D ring needs to be retightened frequently. I took it apart, cleaned etc., slight improvement.
>>>
>> Yes, clean and lubricate crank and rear wheel bearing
>> ideally with new balls.
>>
>> Your chain and FW are shot, replace both.
>> Izumi still offers a great 5/6 speed full roller chain. Many
>> brands no longer offer full width or rollers.
>>
>> Need to remove the freewheel at any rate to clean the RH
>> side of the hub during rebuild.

> I would also replace the wheels since something that old and not serviced has also worn out the races. Likely the rings and BB assembly is shot. That would be the old square drive which COULD be replaced with a sealed bearing unit and go for the rest of his life. The loose bearing unit with races would be hard to replace with a new assembly.
>

I would not replace wheels flippantly.
OP did not mention rim/spoke problems.

Details of internal hub wear are not yet known.

That era of square spindle crank is usually asymmetric, for
which there are not reasonably priced cartridge units.

Again, let's see if anything warrants replacement before
offering advice.

[Frank Krygowski]

Sounds about right. In the days of freewheels, shops around here would
sometimes remove a freewheel for free. It's usually a one minute job.
That saves buying the tool, because it's not needed for reinstallation.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 10:05:20 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 4:20:13 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 7/10/2023 1:09 PM, Tim R wrote:
> > > My Schwinn Super LeTour from the late 1970s sits on a trainer. I use it faithfully for fitness.
> > >
> > > I've never done maintenance other than tubes and tires, maybe a new cable once in a while, so I don't have tools or experience. It must be long overdue for some care and feeding. (and yes I'm starting to feel some roughness in the pedaling, if it's not my imagination) New bearings and grease, at least? New chain?
> > >
> > > But, where do I start? Can I still get parts that fit, etc.?
> > >
> > > Any suggestions are welcome. I am reasonably competent at DIY stuff.
> > >
> > Yes bearing service is long overdue.
> > Measure your chain, replace when indicated.
> >
> > On a trainer you can skip brakes and front wheel, right?
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> It does not seem possible that a bearing could last 50 years without service. I would probably rather do it now rather than after I'm (even) older.

Stranger things have happened

>
> The chain measures 12 1/4 inches for 12 links. Google says that means replace. It's a 70s era ten speed, so I need a chain that fits? link breaker? looking for a source.
> - Pop the chain off the chairings and give the cranks a spin. It should be clean and quiet and spin several rotations freely with just a simple push. Also wiggle it from side to side - there should be no play. If there is any noise or play, it's time for a bottom bracket rebuild.
> With the chain off the chain rings it catches on my cadence magnet. Steel links I guess.

I should have been more clear, drop the chain so it rests on the bottom bracket shell.

> Wiggling it partial turns, there's no noise or resistance.

My suggestion is that BB servicing then is optional. If there was a problem, you'd hear/feel grinding or some resistance. You need special tools for it, then with old ball bearing types there are issues with preload when retightening. Too loose and you'll wear the races, too tight and you could disintegrate both the balls and the races. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

> - With no load on the rear wheel give that a spin also. Other than the freewheel ratchet there shouldn't be any other noises. As with the cranks, give the wheel a side to side test, again there should be no play, any grinding or play indicates a hub rebuild.
> I don't hear any rear wheel noise except the ratchet. It does start the pedals turning. Does a free wheel wear out faster on a trainer? The trainer attaches to the axle/spindle. It seems kind of silly though to go to the trouble of removing the wheel, changing the freewheel, and not doing the bearings at the same time.

The freewheel is probably dry, binding a bit which is causing the pedals to turn. Freewheel replacement is easy, but again you'll need a special tool and it the threads are seized you'll need some assistance*. If it's a lost cause a new wheel is in order. Then you'll need to make a choice - just leave on the old parts since it really isn't hurting anything (on the trainer it isn't a safety issue.). If you run into that, you shouldn't replace the chain either. The chain and freewheel have worn together, so the mating surfaces are matched. A new chain won't match to the worn tooth profile and will pop out. Putting a new chain on an old freewheel will result in the chain skipping, which could break the chain depending on how much power you can put down. If you break the chain while standing on the pedals you could injure yourself.

*the first shop I wrenched at used a large vise bolted to the work bench. We would hold the freewheel tool in place with the QR skewer (or the axle bolts on a solid axle), hold the wheel horizontal with the freewheel tool clamped in the vise, then rotate the wheel to loosen. I do remember one instance where even that didn't work since the threads were seized.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

If you're going to work on the BB you'll need BB tools as well, and it needs to be the _right_ BB tool. Also, some brands of cranks have recessed crank bolts, so you may need a thin-walled socket.

I don;t think you have any BB issues, so I'd suggest leaving it alone.

As far as the rear wheel - If you can't get the freewheel off (as I mentioned in another response), you'll need a new rear wheel - don't replace the chain without replacing the freewheel.

If the freewheel does come off, do the same bearing check you did with the bottom bracket. If there';s no noise/play/grinding just leave it. You'll need a set of cone wrenches to service them, then you run into the same preloading issues (as I mentioned in another response) about the bottom bracket.

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2023 5:27 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 6:41:49 PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:

Freewheels can always be removed. Replacement wheel is not
necessary.

For torn/damaged remover notches on older models, break or
cut the cover plate, grab the inner body in a vise.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

that depends on how hard you want to work at it. For some the cost and time involved in removing the cogs (he would need chainwhips) then removing the outer freewheel body (technique varies with manufacturer) is more problematic that purchasing replacement set-up. Sure, if you have a record hub laced up to a nice Nisi rim you'll want to do what it takes, but I doubt his 70's Schwinn has anything above a Suzue hub with an Araya steel rim. Something like that really isn't worth spending a lot of time on if he runs into a problem....unless you're into that sort of thing.

[Frank Krygowski]

That's how I've always done it.

And regarding the binding (i.e. slightly non-coasting) freewheel, that's
probably no problem on a trainer. You're not going to coast.

It occurs to me, if the freewheel absolutely won't come off the hub, one
can probably unscrew individual cogs using a chain whip, perhaps with a
pipe as extension handle. You might be able to scavenge replacement cogs
from a new-old-stock freewheel, if Andrew has none available.

>> It shifts okay with one exception; the rear shifter slips a bit and the little D ring needs to be retightened frequently. I took it apart, cleaned etc., slight improvement.

You could try a tiny drop of blue Loctite on that D ring's threads.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Agreed. And regarding rear axle bearings, one could probably position
the wheel horizontally on a workbench, then find a way to dribble oil in
from the left side. Do it long enough and the oil should reach bearings
on both sides. After all, it's just a trainer bike.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 12:58:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/13/2023 6:17 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 10:05:20 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
> >>
> > The freewheel is probably dry, binding a bit which is causing the pedals to turn. Freewheel replacement is easy, but again you'll need a special tool and it the threads are seized you'll need some assistance*. If it's a lost cause a new wheel is in order. Then you'll need to make a choice - just leave on the old parts since it really isn't hurting anything (on the trainer it isn't a safety issue.). If you run into that, you shouldn't replace the chain either. The chain and freewheel have worn together, so the mating surfaces are matched. A new chain won't match to the worn tooth profile and will pop out. Putting a new chain on an old freewheel will result in the chain skipping, which could break the chain depending on how much power you can put down. If you break the chain while standing on the pedals you could injure yourself.
> >
> > *the first shop I wrenched at used a large vise bolted to the work bench. We would hold the freewheel tool in place with the QR skewer (or the axle bolts on a solid axle), hold the wheel horizontal with the freewheel tool clamped in the vise, then rotate the wheel to loosen. I do remember one instance where even that didn't work since the threads were seized.
> That's how I've always done it.
>
> And regarding the binding (i.e. slightly non-coasting) freewheel, that's
> probably no problem on a trainer. You're not going to coast.

Right, that was what I was implying when I wrote that if it the freewheel won't come off, you could just leave it on and not bother replacing since it's just on a trainer.

>
> It occurs to me, if the freewheel absolutely won't come off the hub, one
> can probably unscrew individual cogs using a chain whip, perhaps with a
> pipe as extension handle. You might be able to scavenge replacement cogs
> from a new-old-stock freewheel, if Andrew has none available.

That's a good point too, getting replacement cogs for a specific make and model of freewheel could prove problematic.

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2023 10:21 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 10:00:50 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/13/2023 5:27 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 6:41:49 PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:

A disc grinder across the cover plate (no need to remove
sprockets) and it all falls away. Grab inner body with a
vise and the whole job is a minute or two.

(For me. That assumes you have a suitable vise and a disc
grinder at hand)

The Official Schwinn Service Manual (Vol. 1, page 61)shows
another technique which shocked me when working at a Schwinn
dealership before that book was printed. Remove axle
assembly, mount big fat #8 EZ-out in a vise, drop wheel over
it and unscrew. Now, _that's_ a lot of time and tool expense.

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2023 11:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/13/2023 6:17 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 10:05:20 AM UTC-4, Tim R

Why would you remove individual sprockets from a damaged
freewheel? Used sprockets have no value beyond steel scrap.

[Frank Krygowski]

We know the freewheel cogs are worn, given the chain measurement.
Replacing the chain requires replacing cogs, at least, to prevent skipping.

The idea of changing just cogs was only in case the freewheel absolutely
could not be removed. For a bike that never leaves a trainer, I think
swapping out worn freewheel cogs might make more sense than buying an
entire new wheel.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I would not consider that flippant. Older wheels don't have sealed bearings and when the balls wear out it takes the races with them. I have no doubt that he could find replacements but wheels are so cheap now, why bother?

[Tom Kunich]

There are a LOT of freewheel Chinese bikes in China so new freewheels are easily available and cheap. I just throw the whole freewheel away and replace it with a new one.

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2023 3:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/13/2023 3:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/13/2023 11:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2023 6:17 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 10:05:20 AM UTC-4,

Oh, I see your reasoning now, thank you.

Unfortunately in the real world a replacement wheel is 2.5x
to 3x the price of a sprocket. Freewheels are cheap,
individual sprockets are not. Same for cranksets by the way.

At two sprockets maybe, but four sprockets plus labor makes
no sense at all.

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2023 5:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 3:55:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/12/2023 11:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 7:55:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/12/2023 9:05 AM, Tim R wrote:

> I would not consider that flippant. Older wheels don't have sealed bearings and when the balls wear out it takes the races with them. I have no doubt that he could find replacements but wheels are so cheap now, why bother?
>

The wheel in question is $60 off the rack with loose balls
just like the original. It's a commodity and any LBS will
have several.

We are not talking about $400/pair wheels here, nor $2000
bicycles.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Shimano or Suntour freewheels (I don't know about other brands) if you remove the cover plate (usually to indents to accept a pin tool or even a punch) the cogs all come off as a unit. Lots of little ball-bearings spill out and there are the springs and ratchet pawls left on the body. I've often disassembled a freewheel this way, removed the body after wrapping it with something to protect it and then reassembling the freewheel once I've gotten the body off the wheel hub.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

If his freewheel is a SunTour, I probably have the cogs he'd need.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim R]

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 6:17:13 AM UTC-4, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > The chain measures 12 1/4 inches for 12 links. Google says that means replace. It's a 70s era ten speed, so I need a chain that fits? link breaker? looking for a source.
> > - Pop the chain off the chairings and give the cranks a spin. It should be clean and quiet and spin several rotations freely with just a simple push. Also wiggle it from side to side - there should be no play. If there is any noise or play, it's time for a bottom bracket rebuild.
> > With the chain off the chain rings it catches on my cadence magnet. Steel links I guess.
> I should have been more clear, drop the chain so it rests on the bottom bracket shell.

I want to thank everybody for their suggestions. There is a lot of accumulated maintenance experience here.
I did understand, drop the chain on the bracket shell, but there's a saddle for the shift cable that takes up half the space, and the magnet from the cadence counter takes up just enough so you can't spin. I can't remember how I attached that, whether it is stuck on or glued.

> The freewheel is probably dry, binding a bit which is causing the pedals to turn. Freewheel replacement is easy, but again you'll need a special tool and it the threads are seized you'll need some assistance*. If it's a lost cause a new wheel is in order. Then you'll need to make a choice - just leave on the old parts since it really isn't hurting anything (on the trainer it isn't a safety issue.). If you run into that, you shouldn't replace the chain either. The chain and freewheel have worn together, so the mating surfaces are matched. A new chain won't match to the worn tooth profile and will pop out. Putting a new chain on an old freewheel will result in the chain skipping, which could break the chain depending on how much power you can put down. If you break the chain while standing on the pedals you could injure yourself.
>

I don't see how to tell the freewheel brand. The derailleur is marked Shimano 600 and the wheels are Araya 27 x 1 1/4 w/o HI. The teeth are 14, 17, 20, 24, 28. 39/52 in front. Yes, the crankset has recessed bolts that would need a thin socket.

Looking closely at the teeth on the rear, they are sharply angled. Are they designed that way? The edge of the circumference is not at 90 degrees to the plane of the cog, but more like 45 from inside edge to out. This decreases from large to small cog with the small cog being close to flat.

[Tom Kunich]

The wheels I suggested were $65 a pair but if you can get them over the counter for the same price you'd save on shipping costs. I don't frequent low end bicycle shops so don't know what you can get there.

[AMuzi]

On 7/14/2023 10:41 AM, Tim R wrote:

Brand (often date & model as well) is stamped on the cover
plate, the round disc surrounding the remover area. Try a
toothbrush.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/stfwmetr.jpg

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 11:41:41 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
> On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 6:17:13 AM UTC-4, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > The chain measures 12 1/4 inches for 12 links. Google says that means replace. It's a 70s era ten speed, so I need a chain that fits? link breaker? looking for a source.
> > > - Pop the chain off the chairings and give the cranks a spin. It should be clean and quiet and spin several rotations freely with just a simple push. Also wiggle it from side to side - there should be no play. If there is any noise or play, it's time for a bottom bracket rebuild.
> > > With the chain off the chain rings it catches on my cadence magnet. Steel links I guess.
> > I should have been more clear, drop the chain so it rests on the bottom bracket shell.
> I want to thank everybody for their suggestions. There is a lot of accumulated maintenance experience here.
> I did understand, drop the chain on the bracket shell, but there's a saddle for the shift cable that takes up half the space, and the magnet from the cadence counter takes up just enough so you can't spin. I can't remember how I attached that, whether it is stuck on or glued.
> > The freewheel is probably dry, binding a bit which is causing the pedals to turn. Freewheel replacement is easy, but again you'll need a special tool and it the threads are seized you'll need some assistance*. If it's a lost cause a new wheel is in order. Then you'll need to make a choice - just leave on the old parts since it really isn't hurting anything (on the trainer it isn't a safety issue.). If you run into that, you shouldn't replace the chain either. The chain and freewheel have worn together, so the mating surfaces are matched. A new chain won't match to the worn tooth profile and will pop out. Putting a new chain on an old freewheel will result in the chain skipping, which could break the chain depending on how much power you can put down. If you break the chain while standing on the pedals you could injure yourself.
> >
> I don't see how to tell the freewheel brand.

As Andrew notes, it's inside the smallest cog, probably pretty cruddy in there.....

The derailleur is marked Shimano 600 and the wheels are Araya 27 x 1 1/4 w/o HI. The teeth are 14, 17, 20, 24, 28. 39/52 in front. Yes, the crankset has recessed bolts that would need a thin socket.
>
> Looking closely at the teeth on the rear, they are sharply angled. Are they designed that way? The edge of the circumference is not at 90 degrees to the plane of the cog, but more like 45 from inside edge to out. This decreases from large to small cog with the small cog being close to flat.

Yes, there was a generation of Shimano cogs that had twisted teeth it was alleged to help shifting from a lower gog (which is shy you don't see it on the smallest cog). It kinda worked.

[AMuzi]

On 7/14/2023 3:31 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 11:41:41 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:

It does work, and well, especially with a proper six speed
chain. More recent tooth profile innovations are optimized
for no-rivet-sticking-out (9-10-11-12) chains.

Crank removal:
http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-1rmgckn/products/1001/images/8225/img_8925_1200x800__31884.1411479424.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

Modern versions are dirt cheap at your LBS. Or if you prefer
have them remove the bolts and buy a pair of (anachronistic)
allen head bolts.

Since you're visiting you might have them remove that
freewheel for you. They do it all day long and won't have
difficulty with it. At worst they will put two guys on that
wheel to unscrew it.

A new six FW with 28 low is about $20. A good one is about $80.

[Tim R]

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 10:00:07 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > Freewheels can always be removed. Replacement wheel is not
> > > necessary.
> > >
> > > For torn/damaged remover notches on older models, break or
> > > cut the cover plate, grab the inner body in a vise.
> > that depends on how hard you want to work at it. For some the cost and time involved in removing the cogs (he would need chainwhips) then removing the outer freewheel body (technique varies with manufacturer) is more problematic that purchasing replacement set-up. Sure, if you have a record hub laced up to a nice Nisi rim you'll want to do what it takes, but I doubt his 70's Schwinn has anything above a Suzue hub with an Araya steel rim. Something like that really isn't worth spending a lot of time on if he runs into a problem....unless you're into that sort of thing.
> On Shimano or Suntour freewheels (I don't know about other brands) if you remove the cover plate (usually to indents to accept a pin tool or even a punch) the cogs all come off as a unit. Lots of little ball-bearings spill out and there are the springs and ratchet pawls left on the body. I've often disassembled a freewheel this way, removed the body after wrapping it with something to protect it and then reassembling the freewheel once I've gotten the body off the wheel hub.
>
> Cheers

With the chain off, the crankset spins for a long time with no noise, so does the rear wheel. (although it is round, it is clearly not flat in that plane) So new chain and freewheel should do it.

But I'm struggling with the freewheel. Youtube says just take the cover plate off with a punch, but there are no notches. I have angle grinder and dremel, not sure which pieces need to be cut.

Photo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U0bimSDJ6hK8w2bzrCvegMOT0MN7jUN7/view?usp=drive_link

[Tim R]

Whoops, spoke too soon. Notches were under the plastic. Cover plate came off easily. Lots of little tiny ball bearings.

[Roger Meriman]

Do you need to? The cogs look dirty but not worn. So unless the bearings
need replacing?

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

I agree. Maybe the cogs are worn, but it's not visually apparent.

But since he's now looking at many dozens of tiny bearing balls, he's
probably committed to piecewise removal.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 8/7/2023 11:09 AM, Tim R wrote:

Slice a line through it not touching the axle. The cover
plate and outer body/sprockets will fall off or may need a
little help. Grab the remaining inner body in a vise and
unscrew the wheel from it. Two minute job.

[Tim R]

If I'd known that, it might have been worth just replacing the chain.

But thinking I had to do both, I removed the old flywheel and replaced it. Just as someone recommended, after the flywheel came apart a piece of cloth and a pipe wrench took the rest off. Once I found the notches on the cover, it came off easily too.

I picked up the little ball bearings with a nail on a magnet. Take the magnet off and tap the nail, they fall into a cup.

What do you all use for chain lube? Keeping in mind this is a dedicated indoor trainer, brakes removed.

And at some point in this process, I found an extra part on my workbench. I don't recognize it. It looks a little like part of a bike chain, but.........with a cotter pin?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-q3U82hSV_1XPNniDpM-JEld2iS8ooJ7/view?usp=drive_link

[Sir Ridesalot]

By flywheel, did you mean freewheel?

That chain link piece looks a lot like a half link. Why it has a cotter pin is beyond me unless it's a kludge due to a lost rivet. Or perhaps it's just to keep the half link plates oriented in the same plane until it's installed?

Cheers

[AMuzi]

On 8/7/2023 3:18 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 2:07:09 p.m. UTC-5, Tim R wrote:

>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:30:46 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/7/2023 12:26 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Tim R <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Traditional half-link design uses a headed pin with a small
cotter

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/HALFLINK.JPG

[Tim R]

That's what it looks like but I don't know why it would have appeared on my work bench. It doesn't match the size of the ten speed chain.

[AMuzi]

On 8/7/2023 7:47 PM, Tim R wrote:

> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 6:31:59 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/7/2023 3:18 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 2:07:09 p.m. UTC-5, Tim R wrote:

>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:30:46 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 8/7/2023 12:26 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Tim R <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's what it looks like but I don't know why it would have appeared on my work bench. It doesn't match the size of the ten speed chain.
>

Yes, you're right.
They aren't made in 3/32" (AFAIK) because derailleur systems
do not need them.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/7/2023 3:07 PM, Tim R wrote:
>
> What do you all use for chain lube? Keeping in mind this is a dedicated indoor trainer, brakes removed.

On r.b.tech, that's like asking "What's your religion?"

I wax my chains, but that's for outdoor road use. For a trainer, it
doesn't matter what you use. It's not subject to dirt, nor to very heavy
loads, and it will probably never contact your dress clothes.

Just keep it very lightly lubricated, and maybe wipe the outside dry to
reduce the chance of getting the lube on your leg.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim R]

One reason I ask is because when I had the chain off I cleaned the chainwheel and rear derailleur, and there was solidified crud on there that was really hard to get off.

Granted that's my fault for not keeping up with PMCS, still I didn't want to use something that would harden like that stuff did.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

As long as the bike never leaves the trainer pretty much anything will do. Stick with something dry as Frank suggests - cleaner and neater indoors. The bike I have on my trainer is somewhat permanent as well, I use the same chain wax I use for outdoors

[Tim R]

The chain came pretty well lubricated. I went with SRAM 830 from Amazon. I said shifting was fine before, but it turns out I'd just got used to it. Shifting is much better now.

Thanks all, I do appreciate the help.

[Radey Shouman]

Faerie folk? Don't piss them off, no telling what they might bring you.

[Tom Kunich]

All of my present components are Campy except for my gravel bike which is 9 speed Shimano. So none of the rear derailleurs have enough throw and chain length is always a problem. Shimano understood that from the beginning and they seldom had to worry about chain length problems.