Museeuw Flax Bicycle Frame Damping Characteristics

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bicycle_disciple

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Aug 22, 2009, 1:54:44 PM8/22/09
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Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

The article wrote towards the end :

" Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are stacked
up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
frame stood up against the competition. In short, the subjective
claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance
composite frame available today. "

There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?

Also, more reading about flax as bike material here : http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz

BD

Lou Holtman

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Aug 22, 2009, 2:20:47 PM8/22/09
to
bicycle_disciple schreef:

> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>
> The article wrote towards the end :
>
> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are stacked
> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> frame stood up against the competition. In short, the subjective
> claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> undoubtedly one of the finest � if not the finest � performance

> composite frame available today. "
>
> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>
> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here : http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
>
>
> BD


I cite:
`If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the note and
the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before fading away�.


Next....

Lou

someone

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Aug 22, 2009, 2:21:49 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 22, 6:54 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

>
> The article wrote towards the end :
>
> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance
> composite frame available today. "
>
> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?


LOL Brandt, opinionated? You have not been paying attention.

B

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 5:52:06 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 22, 2:20 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> bicycle_disciple schreef:
>
>
>
> > Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> > of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> > characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> >http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>
> > The article wrote towards the end :
>
> > " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> > of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> > collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> > performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> > up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> > frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> > claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> > ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> > results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> > undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance

> > composite frame available today. "
>
> > There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> > of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> > discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>
> > Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
> > BD
>
> I cite:
> `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the note and
> the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before fading away´.
>
> Next....
>
> Lou

Lou :

That does look a little confusing to me as well. Note, atleast as I
knew it, is pitch represented by cycles/second which is frequency.
Amplitude is not the note. It is the magnitude of the cycle. The
reciprocal of frequency gives time length or period.


BD

Lou Holtman

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 6:03:49 PM8/22/09
to
B schreef:

> On Aug 22, 2:20 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>> bicycle_disciple schreef:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
>>> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
>>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
>>> http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>>> The article wrote towards the end :
>>> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
>>> of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
>>> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
>>> performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are stacked
>>> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
>>> frame stood up against the competition. In short, the subjective
>>> claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
>>> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
>>> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
>>> undoubtedly one of the finest � if not the finest � performance

>>> composite frame available today. "
>>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
>>> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
>>> discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>>> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>>> BD
>> I cite:
>> `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the note and
>> the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before fading away�.

>>
>> Next....
>>
>> Lou
>
> Lou :
>
> That does look a little confusing to me as well. Note, atleast as I
> knew it, is pitch represented by cycles/second which is frequency.
> Amplitude is not the note. It is the magnitude of the cycle. The
> reciprocal of frequency gives time length or period.
>
>
> BD


It is a pseudo scientific article with a lot of pseudo tech bla bla with
a lot of embarrassing errors. TOUR magazine tested a Museeuw frameset
some time ago. It was ridiculous expensive, no notable difference in
comfort but very well finished. That's it.

Lou

B

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 6:34:35 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 22, 6:03 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> B schreef:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 22, 2:20 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >> bicycle_disciple schreef:
>
> >>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> >>> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> >>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> >>>http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
> >>> The article wrote towards the end :
> >>> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> >>> of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> >>> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> >>> performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> >>> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> >>> frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> >>> claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> >>> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> >>> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> >>> undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance

> >>> composite frame available today. "
> >>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> >>> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> >>> discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
> >>> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
> >>> BD
> >> I cite:
> >> `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the note and
> >> the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before fading away´.

>
> >> Next....
>
> >> Lou
>
> > Lou :
>
> > That does look a little confusing to me as well. Note, atleast as I
> > knew it, is pitch represented by cycles/second which is frequency.
> > Amplitude is not the note. It is the magnitude of the cycle. The
> > reciprocal of frequency gives time length or period.
>
> > BD
>
> It is a pseudo scientific article with a lot of pseudo tech bla bla with
> a lot of embarrassing errors. TOUR magazine tested a Museeuw frameset
> some time ago. It was ridiculous expensive, no notable difference in
> comfort but very well finished. That's it.
>
> Lou

Lou :

I'm not so much interested in the errors of the article save for the
information they passed out from the University of Ghent study.
Supposedly, Musseew signed a 5 year R&D deal with the University
(since he doesn't know much about engineering or design) to help
develop his bikes and that little graph they came out with showing
damping percentage is very interesting. I think it needs some
exploring to see whether those tiny %'s in difference between flax/cf
and just cf makes any real difference. Besides, the plots don't show
other types of bikes, such as bamboo, cf-al, titanium etc. One can't
definitely say that flax/cf bikes are the best in vibration dampening.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

Tim McNamara

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 6:55:29 PM8/22/09
to
In article <4a90370a$1...@news4us.nl>,
Lou Holtman <lhollaatd...@planet.nl> wrote:

> bicycle_disciple schreef:
> > Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the
> > results of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> > characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> > http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
> >
> > The article wrote towards the end :
> >
> > " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key
> > points of the bike that determine ride quality. From these
> > sensors, the collected data was then analysed to produce a map of
> > how each bike performed in terms of damping performance. When the
> > four are stacked up together, its clear from the graphs how well
> > the Museeuw flax-based frame stood up against the competition. In
> > short, the subjective claims of the many happy Museeuw owners
> > (and those fortunate to have ridden one in tests) are now backed-up
> > with an objective set of results confirming what they've known all

> > along; the Museeuw is undoubtedly one of the finest � if not the
> > finest � performance composite frame available today. "


> >
> > There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time
> > plot of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems
> > worth discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
> >
> > Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :
> > http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
>

> I cite: `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the
> note and the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before

> fading away�.
>
>
> Next....


Good grief. Thanks for saving me a waste of time reading the article.

z

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 9:15:33 PM8/22/09
to
B wrote:
> On Aug 22, 6:03 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>> B schreef:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2:20 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>>>> bicycle_disciple schreef:
>>>>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
>>>>> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
>>>>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
>>>>> http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>>>>> The article wrote towards the end :
>>>>> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
>>>>> of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
>>>>> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
>>>>> performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are stacked
>>>>> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
>>>>> frame stood up against the competition. In short, the subjective
>>>>> claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
>>>>> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
>>>>> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
>>>>> undoubtedly one of the finest � if not the finest � performance

>>>>> composite frame available today. "
>>>>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
>>>>> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
>>>>> discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>>>>> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>>>>> BD
>>>> I cite:
>>>> `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the note and
>>>> the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before fading away�.

DAMPING. Does vibration change when wet?

B

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 9:27:33 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 22, 9:15 pm, z <N...@not.ca> wrote:
> B wrote:
> > On Aug 22, 6:03 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >> B schreef:
>
> >>> On Aug 22, 2:20 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >>>> bicycle_disciple schreef:
> >>>>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> >>>>> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> >>>>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> >>>>>http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
> >>>>> The article wrote towards the end :
> >>>>> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> >>>>> of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> >>>>> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> >>>>> performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> >>>>> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> >>>>> frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> >>>>> claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> >>>>> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> >>>>> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> >>>>> undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance

> >>>>> composite frame available today. "
> >>>>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> >>>>> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> >>>>> discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
> >>>>> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
> >>>>> BD
> >>>> I cite:
> >>>> `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the note and
> >>>> the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before fading away´.


Z wrote : "DAMPING. Does vibration change when wet?"

While trying to elicit mainly stupid responses, I should have thought
a few intelligent ones may squeeze their way in.

BD

bjwe...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 9:55:28 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 22, 10:54 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

>
> The article wrote towards the end :
>
> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance
> composite frame available today. "
>
> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>
> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
> BD

They don't really give any information about what this
"3D amplitude vs frequency" graph captioned as
"Science Bit #2" is supposed to be showing, but it
seems to show that the advertised frame damps
something by about 0.7 percent while the other
frames damp that something by about 0.6 percent.
Well, color me impressed! It would have been useful
if they'd attached one of their accelerometers above the
seat padding and measured how much THAT damps.

Ben

Kerry Montgomery

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 10:08:41 PM8/22/09
to

"b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjwe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7975fc58-848d-465f...@y10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Ben

<end of earlier posts>
If the article doesn't do similar comparisons of other frame
characteristics, this is pretty useless. I think I could design a frame that
had much more damping than the Museeuw Flax frame, but it wouldn't be
something anyone would want to ride.
Kerry


Andre Jute

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 10:17:39 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 22, 6:54 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

>
> The article wrote towards the end :
>
> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance
> composite frame available today. "
>
> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>
> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
> BD

Maybe you have the Flax Faith, Mr Disciple, but I don't put much chop
in the opinions of writer who puts himself forward as a technical
journalist and then confuses the meanings of frequency and amplitude.
Nor can I put too much faith in a bike designer, or his captive
university-based researchers when their graphs are so badly labelled
that I cannot make out what precisely is being damped where. All we
have here is a graphic claim that the non-flax frames damp aggregate
vibration (what sort? input where and how? damped where?)
approximately 15 per cent less than the flax frame. Even for popular
journalism, this is a significantly fact-free article. It would be
really useful, too, to have some comprehensible reference, say that
the same effect can be achieved by going up two tyre sizes (for a lot
less money...).

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

someone

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 10:52:56 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 23, 2:15 am, z <N...@not.ca> wrote:
> B wrote:
> > On Aug 22, 6:03 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >> B schreef:
>
> >>> On Aug 22, 2:20 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >>>> bicycle_disciple schreef:
> >>>>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> >>>>> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> >>>>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> >>>>>http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
> >>>>> The article wrote towards the end :
> >>>>> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> >>>>> of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> >>>>> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> >>>>> performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> >>>>> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> >>>>> frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> >>>>> claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> >>>>> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> >>>>> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> >>>>> undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance

> >>>>> composite frame available today. "
> >>>>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> >>>>> of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> >>>>> discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
> >>>>> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
> >>>>> BD
> >>>> I cite:
> >>>> `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is the note and
> >>>> the frequency is how long the bell holds that note before fading away´.

Most certainly, if you dont seal your linen with varnish/dope the
cloth will become heavy and nullify the sky-hooks effect from ever
occuring with undertensioned member within the strain relationshi[ of
green crank compression when pedalling under extreme loading enough to
falsify marmite and celery jerkin in the Sunday following gresae my
nipple day.

I always find that dampness always lessens the buzz of a group ride.

someone

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 10:55:43 PM8/22/09
to
On Aug 23, 3:08 am, "Kerry Montgomery" <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
> "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Gas pipe, anyone?

someone

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 11:04:17 PM8/22/09
to

Put water in your tyres, that's a good damp(en)er.
I dont even see any claims about the weight of these framesets on
their website never mind anything to do with just about anything
else. It's all open to interpretation because there does not appear
to be any foundation. It's a marketing trick, schoolyard rumours.
The company cannot be held liable if they make no claims, the frameset
only has to be a bike frame, value $10.49 Nicely decorated.

Tim McNamara

unread,
Aug 22, 2009, 11:35:23 PM8/22/09
to
In article <WK0km.116310$9P.1...@newsfe08.iad>, z <No...@not.ca>
wrote:

> B wrote:
> > On Aug 22, 6:03 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl>
> > wrote:
> >> B schreef:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 22, 2:20 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> bicycle_disciple schreef:
> >>>>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the
> >>>>> results of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> >>>>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> >>>>> http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
> >>>>> The article wrote towards the end : " Each bike was fitted with
> >>>>> five accelerometers at all the key points of the bike that
> >>>>> determine ride quality. From these sensors, the collected data
> >>>>> was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike performed
> >>>>> in terms of damping performance. When the four are stacked up
> >>>>> together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw
> >>>>> flax-based frame stood up against the competition. In short,
> >>>>> the subjective claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and
> >>>>> those fortunate to have ridden one in tests) are now backed-up
> >>>>> with an objective set of results confirming what they've known

> >>>>> all along; the Museeuw is undoubtedly one of the finest � if
> >>>>> not the finest � performance composite frame available today. "

> >>>>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride
> >>>>> time plot of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts?
> >>>>> This seems worth discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have
> >>>>> any opinions? Also, more reading about flax as bike material
> >>>>> here
> >>>>> :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
> >>>>> BD
> >>>> I cite: `If you think of it in terms of a bell, the amplitude is
> >>>> the note and the frequency is how long the bell holds that note

> >>>> before fading away�. Next.... Lou


> >>> Lou : That does look a little confusing to me as well. Note,
> >>> atleast as I knew it, is pitch represented by cycles/second which
> >>> is frequency. Amplitude is not the note. It is the magnitude of
> >>> the cycle. The reciprocal of frequency gives time length or
> >>> period. BD
> >> It is a pseudo scientific article with a lot of pseudo tech bla
> >> bla with a lot of embarrassing errors. TOUR magazine tested a
> >> Museeuw frameset some time ago. It was ridiculous expensive, no
> >> notable difference in comfort but very well finished. That's it.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > Lou :
> >
> > I'm not so much interested in the errors of the article save for
> > the information they passed out from the University of Ghent study.
> > Supposedly, Musseew signed a 5 year R&D deal with the University
> > (since he doesn't know much about engineering or design) to help
> > develop his bikes and that little graph they came out with showing
> > damping percentage is very interesting. I think it needs some
> > exploring to see whether those tiny %'s in difference between
> > flax/cf and just cf makes any real difference. Besides, the plots
> > don't show other types of bikes, such as bamboo, cf-al, titanium
> > etc. One can't definitely say that flax/cf bikes are the best in
> > vibration dampening.
> >
> > BD http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com
>
> DAMPING. Does vibration change when wet?

Family newsgroup, buddy.

Jobst Brandt

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 12:26:59 AM8/23/09
to
some secretive person wrote;

> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the
> results of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking

> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model):

http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

> The article wrote toward the end :

# Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
# of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
# collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
# performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are
# stacked up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw
# flax-based frame stood up against the competition. In short, the
# subjective claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those
# fortunate to have ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an
# objective set of results confirming what they've known all along;
# the Museeuw is undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest –
# performance composite frame available today.

> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time
> plot of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems
> worth discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?

The article takes a long time to get to the subject, but then uses
classic similes and allusions to desirable characteristics, a few of
which directly conflict, like "rigid but vibration absorbent". All I
missed were the old saws of "suppleness and stiffness". Rings like a
bell alludes to audible response that has nothing to do with ride
quality, I suppose is manual vibration in handlebars or pedal
response, but that was not specified or maybe not measured.

> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here:

http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz

I can't take any more of this jive. It sounds a lot like how great
Tesla cars are, they having nothing new in electric propulsion except
a water cooled version of thousands of tiny camera batteries. This is
the Wankel all over again... a dead horse. The flax bicycle frame has
all the earmarks of a dud.

Keep flax fibers in linen cloth (sheets, shirts, and napkins) where it
earned its fame.

Jobst Brandt

B

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 2:01:56 AM8/23/09
to
On Aug 22, 10:17 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 22, 6:54 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> > of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> > characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>
> > The article wrote towards the end :
>
> > " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> > of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> > collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> > performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> > up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> > frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> > claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> > ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> > results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> > undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance
> > composite frame available today. "
>
> > There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> > of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> > discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>
> > Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
> > BD
Andre Jute wrote :

> Maybe you have the Flax Faith, Mr Disciple, but I don't put much chop
> in the opinions of writer who puts himself forward as a technical
> journalist and then confuses the meanings of frequency and amplitude.
> Nor can I put too much faith in a bike designer, or his captive
> university-based researchers when their graphs are so badly labelled
> that I cannot make out what precisely is being damped where. All we
> have here is a graphic claim that the non-flax frames damp aggregate
> vibration (what sort? input where and how? damped where?)
> approximately 15 per cent less than the flax frame. Even for popular
> journalism, this is a significantly fact-free article. It would be
> really useful, too, to have some comprehensible reference, say that
> the same effect can be achieved by going up two tyre sizes (for a lot
> less money...).

Dear Andre,

I'm looking at Flax bikes as objectively as you are. I did not confuse
the meaning of frequency and amplitude. I perfectly know what they
are, and one cannot use them alone to describe how a signal dampens
over time. The author of the frame forum article did get muddled a lot
and I wrote them an email asking them to correct it, else it would
stand out as embarrassing.

I do however stand by your statement that it is confusing to look at
the graph in the article and ascertain what "damping percentage" means
and how they arrived at it. %'s can be really tricky. Infact, a change
in small numbers can signify a big percentage. For instance, a change
of a system's value (any value) from 10 to 15 is a 50% change
increase. But if we look at the graph, particularly at this point :
(Frequency, Ride Time) = (3 Hz, 3000 seconds), the plot for the flax
bike seems to show a big hump in damping percentage that is infact
only 0.1 to 0.15% better than the other 3 frames. How do you put
something like that in perspective? So is that telling me that for
that much ride time (3000 secs = 0.8 hour), that bike is superior to
the rest but in the overall scheme of things, it is more or less
similar in vibration dampening? Not sure. The article did promise that
they would get their hands on more plots come Euro Bike, where Museeuw
would be holding some kind of press conference.


BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 2:07:25 AM8/23/09
to
On 23 Aug 2009 04:26:59 GMT, Jobst Brandt <jbr...@sonic.net> wrote:

>The article takes a long time to get to the subject, but then uses
>classic similes and allusions to desirable characteristics,

I'm actually reminded of some of your comments about deep profile
wheels, though in that case you were using alllusions to posit that
they are extremely difficult to ride downhill or in brisk winds. I
think the phrase was only "marginally" better than disk wheels and
some reference to Tour de France riders not using disk wheels on the
front of bikes.

You never came out and said it, so perhaps you can clarify here: have
you ever ridden deep section wheels yourself?

B

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 2:11:13 AM8/23/09
to

Dear Jobst,

You seem to think this has all the earmarks of a dud. I would have
passed by the bike and its marketing, only if weren't for the fact
that a well known University in Belgium and their Materials Science
department has been involved in the R&D. Yes, its a 5 year contract
and Museeuw is probably paying them to do these tests and what not,
but I still would think it very unprofessional on an engineering
institution's part to put a spin over things, just to get sales to
their customer. That said, I haven't seen anyone generate vibration
plots like this for any bike in the past. Everyone in the industry
talks about compliancy and vibration dampening, yet none give us any
objective data. This is the first time something like this happens,
which spurs an interest from my side.


BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

Ben C

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 5:08:36 AM8/23/09
to
On 2009-08-23, Jobst Brandt <jbr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> some secretive person wrote;
>
>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the
>> results of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model):
>
> http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>
>> The article wrote toward the end :
>
> # Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> # of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
> # collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> # performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are
> # stacked up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw
> # flax-based frame stood up against the competition. In short, the
> # subjective claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those
> # fortunate to have ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an
> # objective set of results confirming what they've known all along;
> # the Museeuw is undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest –
> # performance composite frame available today.
>
>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time
>> plot of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems
>> worth discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>
> The article takes a long time to get to the subject, but then uses
> classic similes and allusions to desirable characteristics, a few of
> which directly conflict, like "rigid but vibration absorbent".

There's no conflict there-- "vibration absorbency" refers to damping not
to stiffness.

Try hitting a cricket ball with a cricket bat and then with a frying
pan. The bat is stiffer but better damped.

This new bike is meant to be more like a cricket bat than a frying pan.

Chalo

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 5:19:49 AM8/23/09
to
Ben C wrote:

>
> Jobst Brandt wrote:
> >
> > The article takes a long time to get to the subject, but then uses
> > classic similes and allusions to desirable characteristics, a few of
> > which directly conflict, like "rigid but vibration absorbent".
>
> There's no conflict there-- "vibration absorbency" refers to damping not
> to stiffness.
>
> Try hitting a cricket ball with a cricket bat and then with a frying
> pan. The bat is stiffer but better damped.
>
> This new bike is meant to be more like a cricket bat than a frying pan.

It's actually more like a wooden bat versus a metal bat. In baseball,
metal bats actually work very well and would be indispensable in
professional leagues if they were permitted.

But does this difference even matter if there is an airbag between the
ball and whatever you're hitting it with?

Does it matter if one bat or the other breaks and injures you in the
process?

Chalo

Ben C

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 5:29:47 AM8/23/09
to
On 2009-08-23, Chalo <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
>>
>> Jobst Brandt wrote:
>> >
>> > The article takes a long time to get to the subject, but then uses
>> > classic similes and allusions to desirable characteristics, a few of
>> > which directly conflict, like "rigid but vibration absorbent".
>>
>> There's no conflict there-- "vibration absorbency" refers to damping not
>> to stiffness.
>>
>> Try hitting a cricket ball with a cricket bat and then with a frying
>> pan. The bat is stiffer but better damped.
>>
>> This new bike is meant to be more like a cricket bat than a frying pan.
>
> It's actually more like a wooden bat versus a metal bat. In baseball,
> metal bats actually work very well and would be indispensable in
> professional leagues if they were permitted.

Right, although I'm not sure which is stiffer: the wooden or metal bat.

> But does this difference even matter if there is an airbag between the
> ball and whatever you're hitting it with?

I don't know. Would have to ride the bike. I was just pointing out that
rigid but better damped does at least make sense in principle.

> Does it matter if one bat or the other breaks and injures you in the
> process?

Of course, but there's no reason to think this flax bike is weaker
than a regular CF one.

The flax fibres probably aren't as strong, but they maybe use more of
them or something, or have as much CF in there too as they would anyway.

spins

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 7:53:20 AM8/23/09
to

I graduated there. IT IS A DUMP.

someone

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 8:03:38 AM8/23/09
to
On 23 Aug, 10:08, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:

Cricket bat handles which are wrapped in line (so bear a similarity)
before fitting a rubber sleeve are not 3000 euros. I'm not declaring
there is no benefit, simply that the minimal change there is, is being
sold at an elevated price.

someone

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 8:14:31 AM8/23/09
to
On 23 Aug, 10:29, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:

Flax fibre will likely improve the failure mode of a composite frame
so is does not splinter when overstressed. I dont think carbon fibre
frames should be constructed with only one fibre length. There should
be a combination of fibre length so as to avoid fragmentation into
shards upon fracture. I think for the possible safety benefits, a
flax/carbon mix will be more popular with professionals. Weights of
frames are low enough that encasement of a carbon frame is viable.

Lou Holtman

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 8:29:25 AM8/23/09
to
B schreef:

> On Aug 23, 12:26 am, Jobst Brandt <jbra...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> some secretive person wrote;
>>
>>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the
>>> results of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
>>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model):
>> http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>>
>>> The article wrote toward the end :
>> # Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
>> # of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
>> # collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
>> # performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are
>> # stacked up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw
>> # flax-based frame stood up against the competition. In short, the
>> # subjective claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those
>> # fortunate to have ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an
>> # objective set of results confirming what they've known all along;
>> # the Museeuw is undoubtedly one of the finest � if not the finest �


No it is not the first time this sort of tests are done. I read a couple
and all the time the results were too embarrassing to publish widely.
The test is really simple. You want the dampening of a material compared
with another material take a tube of that material and measure the
frequency response and compare it with frequency response of a tube with
the same dimensions made of a different material. You don't take a whole
bike and then say something about the material the frame was made off.
That is sloppy research.

Lou

Tim McNamara

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 12:41:56 PM8/23/09
to
In article
<84140db7-d414-47e9...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
B <1.crazy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You seem to think this has all the earmarks of a dud. I would have
> passed by the bike and its marketing, only if weren't for the fact
> that a well known University in Belgium and their Materials Science
> department has been involved in the R&D. Yes, its a 5 year contract
> and Museeuw is probably paying them to do these tests and what not,
> but I still would think it very unprofessional on an engineering
> institution's part to put a spin over things, just to get sales to
> their customer.

This is SOP in university research these days. Whomever is paying for
the research gets the results they want. Research is marketing, and a
university which doesn't play ball doesn't get grants.

Jobst Brandt

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 1:13:48 PM8/23/09
to
Ben C? mysterious wrote:

http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

Your example is a non sequitur. Try a wooden cricket bat and a rubber
one and you'll be closer. Don't compare frying pans with bicycle
frames either. A rider does not feel acoustic resonances in
handlebars of a bicycle that are usually absent because the bars are
wrapped with tape, flax or otherwise. However, vibrations enter the
bicycle through pneumatic tires that don't transmit sharp step
functions or acoustic noise, although this is often put forth as the
basis of ride quality. That is mainly resonances of highly inflated
lightweight tire casings.

Jobst Brandt

Ben C

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 1:31:25 PM8/23/09
to
On 2009-08-23, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article
><84140db7-d414-47e9...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> B <1.crazy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You seem to think this has all the earmarks of a dud. I would have
>> passed by the bike and its marketing, only if weren't for the fact
>> that a well known University in Belgium and their Materials Science
>> department has been involved in the R&D. Yes, its a 5 year contract
>> and Museeuw is probably paying them to do these tests and what not,
>> but I still would think it very unprofessional on an engineering
>> institution's part to put a spin over things, just to get sales to
>> their customer.
>
> This is SOP in university research these days. Whomever is paying for
> the research gets the results they want.

Whoever.

Ben C

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 1:38:30 PM8/23/09
to
On 2009-08-23, Jobst Brandt <jbr...@sonic.net> wrote:

No it isn't.

> Try a wooden cricket bat and a rubber one and you'll be closer.

A rubber cricket bat resembles a dead horse or a herring more than it
does a metal bicycle frame.

> Don't compare frying pans with bicycle frames either. A rider does
> not feel acoustic resonances in handlebars of a bicycle that are
> usually absent because the bars are wrapped with tape, flax or
> otherwise.

That may be true. I was just clarifying what's meant "rigid but
vibration absorbent"-- it's a perfectly intelligible idea, even if it
doesn't matter.

Anyway, vibration absorbency is even lower on the agenda for frying
pans.

B

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 1:47:49 PM8/23/09
to
On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article
> <84140db7-d414-47e9-b8d3-7cc67ad15...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,

Tim,

I certainly don't know that.It may happen, it may not. I think its not
right to generalize that to all institutions and reduce their work to
just some cleverly crafted hogwash.


BD

Tom Sherman °_°

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 1:59:24 PM8/23/09
to
Ben C? wrote:
> [...]

> A rubber cricket bat resembles a dead horse or a herring more than it
> does a metal bicycle frame.[...]

And is about as useful for cutting down the mightiest tree in the forest.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
Celebrity culture is an opposite of community, informing us
that these few nonsense-heads matter but that the rest of
us do not. - Jay Griffiths

Ron

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 2:03:53 PM8/23/09
to

Dear Someone,

After a little bit of research, I found out that the patented process
by which these bikes are made are similar to those used in the
cigarette making industry. http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6584981/description.html.
The frame is a bunch of tubes combining both carbon with fiber,
produced by a patented high temperature and pressure process, and
these tubes are bonded to form a frame using a special purpose glue.


BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

Michael Press

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 3:12:19 PM8/23/09
to
In article <oeadnY1QH7cxOQ3X...@earthlink.com>,
"Kerry Montgomery" <kamo...@teleport.com> wrote:


Outlook Express sometimes fails to quote text,
as it did with your message. I removed all quoted
text so as not to transmit the confusing set of
attributions and quotes. Please read your own
article to see where your news reader failed to
quote with a `>' character in the first column.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 3:18:31 PM8/23/09
to
In article <slrnh921k4....@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spam...@spam.eggs> wrote:

> Try hitting a cricket ball with a cricket bat and then with a frying
> pan. The bat is stiffer but better damped.

A cast iron frying pan?

--
Michael Press

Michael Press

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 3:20:59 PM8/23/09
to
In article <slrnh922rr....@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spam...@spam.eggs> wrote:

> On 2009-08-23, Chalo <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ben C wrote:
> >>
> >> Jobst Brandt wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The article takes a long time to get to the subject, but then uses
> >> > classic similes and allusions to desirable characteristics, a few of
> >> > which directly conflict, like "rigid but vibration absorbent".
> >>
> >> There's no conflict there-- "vibration absorbency" refers to damping not
> >> to stiffness.
> >>
> >> Try hitting a cricket ball with a cricket bat and then with a frying
> >> pan. The bat is stiffer but better damped.
> >>
> >> This new bike is meant to be more like a cricket bat than a frying pan.
> >
> > It's actually more like a wooden bat versus a metal bat. In baseball,
> > metal bats actually work very well and would be indispensable in
> > professional leagues if they were permitted.
>
> Right, although I'm not sure which is stiffer: the wooden or metal bat.
>
> > But does this difference even matter if there is an airbag between the
> > ball and whatever you're hitting it with?
>
> I don't know. Would have to ride the bike. I was just pointing out that
> rigid but better damped does at least make sense in principle.

What is to be damped
that is not already damped in the tires and saddle?

--
Michael Press

carl...@comcast.net

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 3:55:55 PM8/23/09
to
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 10:54:44 -0700 (PDT), bicycle_disciple
<1.crazy...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
>of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking

>characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
>http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>
>The article wrote towards the end :


>
>" Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points

>of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the

>collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike

>performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are stacked
>up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
>frame stood up against the competition. In short, the subjective
>claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
>ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
>results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
>undoubtedly one of the finest � if not the finest � performance


>composite frame available today. "
>
>There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
>of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
>discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>

>Also, more reading about flax as bike material here : http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
>
>

>BD

Dear BD,

Find a beautifully smooth road where you don't notice any vibration.

Ride a long, smooth, straight stretch while holding a digital camera
in video mode.

Switch between resting your camera hand on the handlebar, where the
frame vibration affects things, and holding the camera up in the air,
where your body damps the vibration.

The sensitive camera will show a dramatic difference, not just in the
video shaking, but also in the sound level.

But it's still a beautifully smooth road.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Bill Sornson

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 4:41:18 PM8/23/09
to
Michael Press wrote:
> In article <oeadnY1QH7cxOQ3X...@earthlink.com>,
> "Kerry Montgomery" <kamo...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>
> Outlook Express sometimes fails to quote text,
> as it did with your message.

Kerry's post had fully quoted text on my newsreader, and I use OE.

> I removed all quoted
> text so as not to transmit the confusing set of
> attributions and quotes. Please read your own
> article to see where your news reader failed to
> quote with a `>' character in the first column.

My you're helpful. You could work for the nanny state.

BS


Jobst Brandt

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 4:41:43 PM8/23/09
to
Carl Fogel wrote:

>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the
>> results of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).

http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

>> The article wrote towards the end:

# Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
# of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
# collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
# performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are
# stacked up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw
# flax-based frame stood up against the competition. In short, the
# subjective claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those
# fortunate to have ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an
# objective set of results confirming what they've known all along;
# the Museeuw is undoubtedly one of the finest - if not the finest -
# performance composite frame available today.



>> There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time
>> plot of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems
>> worth discussing a bit. Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?

>> Also, more reading about flax as bike material here:

http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz

> Find a beautifully smooth road where you don't notice any vibration.

> Ride a long, smooth, straight stretch while holding a digital camera
> in video mode.

> Switch between resting your camera hand on the handlebar, where the
> frame vibration affects things, and holding the camera up in the
> air, where your body damps the vibration.

> The sensitive camera will show a dramatic difference, not just in
> the video shaking, but also in the sound level.

> But it's still a beautifully smooth road.

Performing this test on a steel frame and a flax frame bicycle, using
the same wheels, is a more valid comparison. Shake seen in a camera
does not represent what a bicyclist considers am uncomfortable ride.

Jobst Brandt

B

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 4:54:23 PM8/23/09
to

Dear Carl,

What are you suggesting? Are you saying that a camera mounted on your
helmet is better than a camera mounted on the seattube or the
handlebar? It doesn't make sense. Humans and cameras vary. A fat human
probably has more body dampening than a thin one as it has to go
through all those layers of fat. Similarly, a camera designed with
special circuits can take films while filtering out vibration to a
decent amount. Both aren't objective ways to analyze the dampening
characteristics of a bicycle frame.

I article I linked to and quoted from (the University of Ghent study)
is also sketchy. How can you measure frame energy absorption with just
5 accelerometers? The article also does not point out who rode the
bikes, where they rode it, the techniques they used to excite the
bike, whether it was correctly loaded etc. That said, the plot is
still interesting to discuss.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

Lou Holtman

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Aug 23, 2009, 5:06:03 PM8/23/09
to
B schreef:

> On Aug 23, 3:55 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 10:54:44 -0700 (PDT), bicycle_disciple
>>
>>
>>
>> <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
>>> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
>>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
>>> http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
>>> The article wrote towards the end :
>>> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
>>> of the bike that determine ride quality. From these sensors, the
>>> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
>>> performed in terms of damping performance. When the four are stacked
>>> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
>>> frame stood up against the competition. In short, the subjective
>>> claims of the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
>>> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
>>> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
>>> undoubtedly one of the finest � if not the finest � performance

I just reread the test in TOUR magazine of the Museeuw MF 5 frameset.
The frame was not very torsional stiff and the bike came with a one
piece handlebar stem also made out of that flax fiber stuff. Frameset
cost 3550 euro......

Lou

carl...@comcast.net

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Aug 23, 2009, 5:20:15 PM8/23/09
to

Dear BD,

Okay, try simpler experiments.

See if you notice the difference in damping between the same bicycle
with and without a 16-ounce bottle of water attached to the frame.

Or see if you notice the difference between the same bicycle before
and after you tap the presta valves with a finger--pfffft!--and reduce
the pressure about half of one psi.

You'll have about as much luck doing that as you will noticing a 0.5%
difference in frame damping by watching how much a video shakes off a
handlebar at 20 mph.

Using five accelerometers to detect damping differences of less than
half one one per cent--and making a wild fuss about the
results--suggests that someone lost sight of the scale.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

B

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 5:52:13 PM8/23/09
to
On Aug 23, 5:06 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> B schreef:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 23, 3:55 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 10:54:44 -0700 (PDT), bicycle_disciple
>
> >> <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> >>> of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> >>> characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).
> >>>http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html
> >>> The article wrote towards the end :
> >>> " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> >>> of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> >>> collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> >>> performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> >>> up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> >>> frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> >>> claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> >>> ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> >>> results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> >>> undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance

Dear Lou,

It seems you are right. I too did some digging to literature from Tour
Mag. The torsional stiffness of the headtube ("Lenkkopfsteifigkeit")
for a Museeuw Flax Bike Model MF-5 (the bike shown in the 3D plot from
the U of Ghent study) was 68 Nm/degree and bottom bracket stiffness
("Tretlagersteifigkeit") was 44 N/mm. Let's put that in perspective.
Early this year, the same independent magazine tested 27 top end
carbon fiber bikes that you can buy for money. From the published test
results, I calculated that the average torsional stiffness for those
27 bikes was on the order 95.85 Nm/degree and the average bottom
bracket stiffness was 55.77 N/mm. So the flax bike appears to be 29%
lower in torsional stiffness and 21.10% lower in bottom bracket
stiffness. This isn't sensational. But since the Flax bike doesn't not
claim to be superior in stiffness but does claim to be superior in
vibration dampening, my results prompt me to question whether the
vibration dampening is simply because the bike is made to be more
complaint than its stiffer cousins. Does flax have anything at all to
do with vibration dampening? The 3D graph certainly shows tiny
percentages of different and I argue those minute figures may hardly
be perceptible to a rider.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

B

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Aug 23, 2009, 6:11:14 PM8/23/09
to

Carl,

Ahhh, I see where you're going with this. One way to get out of the
trap of capturing the effects of a tire in a study like this is to
test the frameset alone. Load it on a shaking table attached via
dropouts, simulate some frequencies seen in real life (such as the
cobbles of Paris-Roubaix) and lets see what the results show from one
frame to the next.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

B

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Aug 23, 2009, 6:13:07 PM8/23/09
to

Ahhh, I see where you're going with this. One way to get out of the

bjwe...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 23, 2009, 7:12:27 PM8/23/09
to

Stop engaging in wishful thinking.

Capturing the effects of a tire in a study of vibration
damping is not a drawback. It is a necessity, because
hardly anyone rides a bicycle without tires.

The test you propose of a bare frame on a table
would be illegitimate because the input spectrum
of vibrations to the frame in any real life use is modified
by the tires, the response is modified by the fact that
the frame is loaded by the rider's weight, and so on.

It's all wishful thinking. Compared to the soft stuff
in the system - tires, seats, handlebar tape, arms
and legs - frames are so much more stiff that there
is no point in measuring the vibration differences
between frames and claiming it means something.
Variations in frame geometry are probably more
important (slacker head angle for rougher surfaces, etc).
I have no doubt that someone at this university measured
vibrations in frames. The error is in assuming that
the measurement shows something meaningful.

Ben

B

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Aug 23, 2009, 7:42:58 PM8/23/09
to
On Aug 23, 7:12 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjwei...@gmail.com>

Ben,

I engaged in wishful thinking only to eliminate the effects of tire
and tube on frame dampening. In reality, you're right, bikes are
ridden with wheels on and they above all see the major impacts of road
surface irregularities. Note that wheels are not the only dynamic
components. Cranks, chainrings and chains are too. It would be hard to
believe that they have zero effect on vibration. Think about a sprint
cyclist running at a top 100-120 RPM and shifting gears along with it.
It would be interested to see if U of Ghent studied the effects these
could have on vibration.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

Jobst Brandt

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Aug 23, 2009, 8:24:41 PM8/23/09
to
All this talk of vibration damping seems to be misdirected, because
bicyclists have as a whole, not complained about vibration in the
amplitudes that the structure transmits. For bumpy surfaces spring
suspension frames have been designed. Throughout the history of
bicycling, the functions of structural integrity and shock absorption
have been separate as they are in all vehicles, be they cars, trucks,
railways, prams, bicycles, and motorcycles.

These vehicles have structurally rigid elements that for shock
absorption have been equipped with hinges with links supported by
springs. No reasonable designer combines the two functions that are
anathema to each other. Yet people unclear on the concept continue
claim to have merged springs with structures using "space age
materials". I can think of a good subject for these folks. They
should focus on making a pogo stick in which the shaft is the
elastomer and leave bicycles alone.

Jobst Brandt

Andre Jute

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Aug 23, 2009, 11:58:41 PM8/23/09
to
On Aug 23, 7:01 am, B <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 22, 10:17 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 22, 6:54 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> > > Here's an interesting article from Frame Forum which shows the results
> > > of a University of Ghent study on the vibration soaking
> > > characteristics of a Museeuw Flax Frame (2010 model).http://www.frameforum.org/newportal/preview-museeuw-2010.html

>
> > > The article wrote towards the end :
>
> > > " Each bike was fitted with five accelerometers at all the key points
> > > of the bike that determine ride quality.  From these sensors, the
> > > collected data was then analysed to produce a map of how each bike
> > > performed in terms of damping performance.  When the four are stacked
> > > up together, its clear from the graphs how well the Museeuw flax-based
> > > frame stood up against the competition. In short,  the subjective
> > > claims of  the many happy Museeuw owners (and those fortunate to have
> > > ridden one in tests) are now backed-up with an objective set of
> > > results confirming what they've known all along; the Museeuw is
> > > undoubtedly one of the finest – if not the finest – performance
> > > composite frame available today. "
>
> > > There's also a picture of 3D amplitude vs frequency vs ride time plot
> > > of 'vibration' in the frames tested. Any thoughts? This seems worth
> > > discussing a bit.  Jobst Brandt, do you have any opinions?
>
> > > Also, more reading about flax as bike material here :http://tinyurl.com/ng82gz
>
> > > BD
>
>  Andre Jute wrote :
>
> > Maybe you have the Flax Faith, Mr Disciple, but I don't put much chop
> > in the opinions of writer who puts himself forward as a technical
> > journalist and then confuses the meanings of frequency and amplitude.
> > Nor can I put too much faith in a bike designer, or his captive
> > university-based researchers when their graphs are so badly labelled
> > that I cannot make out what precisely is being damped where. All we
> > have here is a graphic claim that the non-flax frames damp aggregate
> > vibration (what sort? input where and how? damped where?)
> > approximately 15 per cent less than the flax frame. Even for popular
> > journalism, this is a significantly fact-free article. It would be
> > really useful, too, to have some comprehensible reference, say that
> > the same effect can be achieved by going up two tyre sizes (for a lot
> > less money...).
>
> Dear Andre,
>
> I'm looking at Flax bikes as objectively as you are. I did not confuse
> the meaning of frequency and amplitude. I perfectly know what they
> are, and one cannot use them alone to describe how a signal dampens
> over time. The author of the frame forum article did get muddled a lot
> and I wrote them an email asking them to correct it, else it would
> stand out as embarrassing.
>
> I do however stand by your statement that it is confusing to look at
> the graph in the article and ascertain what "damping percentage" means
> and how they arrived at it. %'s can be really tricky. Infact, a change
> in small numbers can signify a big percentage. For instance, a change
> of a system's value (any value) from 10 to 15 is a 50% change
> increase. But if we look at the graph, particularly at this point :
> (Frequency, Ride Time) = (3 Hz, 3000 seconds), the plot for the flax
> bike seems to show a big hump in damping percentage that is infact
> only 0.1 to 0.15% better than the other 3 frames. How do you put
> something like that in perspective? So is that telling me that for
> that much ride time (3000 secs = 0.8 hour), that bike is superior to
> the rest but in the overall scheme of things, it is more or less
> similar in vibration dampening? Not sure. The article did promise that
> they would get their hands on more plots come Euro Bike, where Museeuw
> would be holding some kind of press conference.
>
> BDhttp://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

As I said to the pedalpals today when they somewhat over-effusively
congratulated me on the perfection of my arrangements for our Tour of
Ireland outing (I was asleep until they came to pull me out of bed),
"Kiss the ring." You see, I was right, the article is rubbish but the
graph is seriously misleading, because I got fifteen per cent from it,
whereas you get 0.15 per cent. If that graph was in addition scaled in
inverse log, I would without a moment's hesitation have accused its
makers of deliberate and probably mercenary malice rather than
carelessness or ignorance. (Don't even ask how I know such tricks of
the statistical trades!)

Apologies for my tone in the first message. I read and admire your
netsite, especially the speculative slant of it, which I miss from the
pretend-engineers here on RBT, some of whom are positively proud of
not having a shred of humour -- or originality, or brains for that
matter. I thought I was writing to one of these wankers. An
embarrassing mistake: I blush.

Andre Jute
Pedontologist: "Doesn't everyone have his foot in his mouth?"

B

unread,
Aug 24, 2009, 12:27:55 AM8/24/09
to

Andre :

Is the "speculative slant" of my site good or bad? What did you expect
anyway?

I shared the graph we're discussing with Jim Papadopoulos of MIT as
well as the article. He wrote that there is zero technical content to
validate the claims of the plot and hence its meaningless. I also
emailed the author of Frame Forum asking him to correct the
inaccuracies in the definitions of amplitude and frequency, kindly
offering him suggestions. I got a sort of sarcastic and almost pompous
email from him back implying that he's not an expert, yet he believes
in what he wrote, and if he needs more help on uncovering the science
behind "ringing bells", he'll give me a buzz. That I thought was
pretty unprofessional, especially for the admin of a site read by
thousands.What's even strange is that he openly asks for donations
towards his website in spite of inaccuracies in his articles (http://
frameforum.org/forum3/fdp.html). That should take the cake?


BD

B

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Aug 24, 2009, 12:32:05 AM8/24/09
to

Andre :

I'm sorry I don't know your background. Your involvement with the Tour
of Ireland leads me to believe you are based in Ireland, else you're a
traveling photographer or journalist of some sort? Please correct me.


BD

bjwe...@gmail.com

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Aug 24, 2009, 1:21:29 AM8/24/09
to

Cranks, chainrings, chains??? All distractions.
It's not the dynamic properties of wheels that
matter here, it's the dynamic properties of tires.

What you are doing here is like the princess and
the pea story. You're arguing about whether it
matters whether it was a pea or a machine nut
that is under the pile of mattresses, and further
does it matter whether the nut is SAE or metric?
For the rest of us that aren't princesses, the only
thing that matters is whether the mattress is
rated firm or squishy.

Ben

Jan Jolly

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Aug 24, 2009, 2:21:58 AM8/24/09
to
On Aug 24, 1:21 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjwei...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The problem with the pea and princess story is that she wasn't a bike
rider. Its also a fairy tale. Hyuck hyuck....

B

unread,
Aug 24, 2009, 2:25:33 AM8/24/09
to
On Aug 24, 1:21 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjwei...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Dear Ben,

All I'm saying is that bold claims should be validated. Nothing wrong
in discussing sources of vibration in bicycles. This newsgroup is
about discussion so prepare to be a little open minded.


BD

carl...@comcast.net

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Aug 24, 2009, 3:02:04 AM8/24/09
to
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 23:25:33 -0700 (PDT), B
<1.crazy...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Aug 24, 1:21锟絘m, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjwei...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> On Aug 23, 4:42锟絧m, B <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 23, 7:12锟絧m, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjwei...@gmail.com>


>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > Stop engaging in wishful thinking.
>>
>> > > Capturing the effects of a tire in a study of vibration

>> > > damping is not a drawback. 锟絀t is a necessity, because


>> > > hardly anyone rides a bicycle without tires.
>>
>> > > The test you propose of a bare frame on a table
>> > > would be illegitimate because the input spectrum
>> > > of vibrations to the frame in any real life use is modified
>> > > by the tires, the response is modified by the fact that
>> > > the frame is loaded by the rider's weight, and so on.
>>

>> > > It's all wishful thinking. 锟紺ompared to the soft stuff


>> > > in the system - tires, seats, handlebar tape, arms
>> > > and legs - frames are so much more stiff that there
>> > > is no point in measuring the vibration differences
>> > > between frames and claiming it means something.
>> > > Variations in frame geometry are probably more
>> > > important (slacker head angle for rougher surfaces, etc).
>> > > I have no doubt that someone at this university measured

>> > > vibrations in frames. 锟絋he error is in assuming that


>> > > the measurement shows something meaningful.
>>
>> > > Ben
>>
>> > Ben,
>>
>> > I engaged in wishful thinking only to eliminate the effects of tire
>> > and tube on frame dampening. In reality, you're right, bikes are
>> > ridden with wheels on and they above all see the major impacts of road
>> > surface irregularities. Note that wheels are not the only dynamic
>> > components. Cranks, chainrings and chains are too. It would be hard to
>> > believe that they have zero effect on vibration. Think about a sprint
>> > cyclist running at a top 100-120 RPM and shifting gears along with it.
>> > It would be interested to see if U of Ghent studied the effects these
>> > could have on vibration.
>>

>> Cranks, chainrings, chains??? 锟紸ll distractions.


>> It's not the dynamic properties of wheels that
>> matter here, it's the dynamic properties of tires.
>>
>> What you are doing here is like the princess and

>> the pea story. 锟結ou're arguing about whether it


>> matters whether it was a pea or a machine nut
>> that is under the pile of mattresses, and further
>> does it matter whether the nut is SAE or metric?
>> For the rest of us that aren't princesses, the only
>> thing that matters is whether the mattress is
>> rated firm or squishy.
>>
>> Ben
>
>Dear Ben,
>
>All I'm saying is that bold claims should be validated. Nothing wrong
>in discussing sources of vibration in bicycles. This newsgroup is
>about discussion so prepare to be a little open minded.
>
>
>BD

Dear BD,

According to the data in the article, we need to be open-minded to
damping differences amounting to about 0.5% (at some frequencies, but
not all).

You can think of plenty of 0.5% differences and how unlikely any rider
is to notice them.

Who can tell if he's going 20.0 mph or 20.1 mph just by the difference
in vibration?

Who can tell if his tires are at 100 or at 99.5 psi by just riding
around?

Who can tell the difference by riding in a straight line over normal
pavement between a short, harsh-riding wheelbase of 1,000 mm and a
plush limousine-like wheelbase of 1,005 mm?

Who can feel the difference between a 10.0 mph headwind and a headwind
that's only 9.95 mph?

The colorful and detailed graphs are boldly distracting you from the
obvious lack of scale--all four frames damp <1%, meaning that they all
transmit >99% of vibration.

200 dots:
.........................
.........................
.........................
.........................
.........................
.........................
.........................
.........................

99.5% of 200 dots:
.........................
.........................
.........................
.........................
........ ................
.........................
.........................
.........................

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Andre Jute

unread,
Aug 24, 2009, 3:47:45 AM8/24/09