OT: Employment opportunity

[Frank Krygowski]

In case anyone needs a job so they can move to a better area:

https://www.news10.com/news/national/hotdogger-wanted-oscar-mayer-searches-for-next-wienermobile-driver/1718972915

--
- Frank Krygowski

[news18]

On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:09:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> In case anyone needs a job so they can move to a better area:
>
> https://www.news10.com/news/national/hotdogger-wanted-oscar-mayer-
searches-for-next-wienermobile-driver/1718972915

Wow, do people really get degrees in the USA just to flip burgers and the
like.

[slto...@gmail.com]

If you don't know the statistics - 80% of all college students never work one day in their major.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Yep, that would be me. I spent 6 years in 3 colleges getting a degree
in electrical and electronic engineering. My "part time" employment
during this time was in garment manufacture, various types of
automotive and electronics repair, aerospace calibration lab
construction, pushing a broom at a machine shop, a few military
adventures, and manual labor. I graduated into a recession in 1971,
so this continued for a few more years. It was 2 years after I
graduated before I found a real job in engineering. During college,
there were various "work-study" programs, but these didn't pay and
didn't seem very interesting.

Not having any experience in my chose major did not seem to be a
problem at the time because having a college diploma entitled me to
claim that I knew everything. For example, my illusion of how an
engineer works was that I arrive wearing a white shirt and narrow
black tie. I sit down at my drafting board and quietly swing my
T-square around as if it were a sword, until someone arrives with a
problem for me to solve. I return the T-square to the drafting table
and withdraw my slide rule from its scabbard. After some
calculations, I create a proper design, which I inscribe on vellum
with mechanical pencil, T-square, triangles, and Rapidesign symbol
templates. After my drawing receives immediate attention and the
proper signatures, I add another notch to the leg of my drafting
table, and return to swinging my T-square around.

It didn't take long for reality and my illusions to clash. I
survived, but many graduates did not. My guess(tm) is 80% of all
college engineering graduates don't have a clue how engineering is
really done, what is expected, how to sell their ideas, how to work
efficiently, and most important how to properly complete a job on
time.

Hint: I still have my original antique brass and walnut T-square
hanging on the wall.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2019 11:09 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:17:38 -0800 (PST), slto...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> If you don't know the statistics - 80% of all college students never work one day in their major.
>
> Yep, that would be me.

It depends heavily on choice of major.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/01/22/the-college-degrees-that-get-the-most-job-offers/#6953ef02c4eb

IIRC, engineering used to top that list.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:31:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>It depends heavily on choice of major.
>https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/01/22/the-college-degrees-that-get-the-most-job-offers/#6953ef02c4eb
>IIRC, engineering used to top that list.

This list is originally from GlassDoor.com for 2017:
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffkauflin/2017/05/23/the-20-most-popular-jobs-for-college-graduates/#1312de3671b4>
Engineering is #11.

Sales associate is #1, which is rather odd because the list is suppose
to be for college graduates. I guess a college education is now
required to operate a cash register. 12,000 openings for entry level
sales associate.

[slto...@gmail.com]

I was extremely lucky to always be at least in a good if not great place at the right time. When I got out of the Air Force, the first job I got was at Physics International and was assistant on a high energy nuclear research machine. I held a couple of positions like that and ended up in two years at Berkeley Computer Company where we built the first large scale time sharing computer. We went broke because no one knew how to sell it and the prototype became the central hub of the Pacific Coast Arcnet at UC Berkeley. That then became the Internet through countless add-ons.

I just happened to be in the meeting with Dr. Kary Mullis when those two really stupid PhDs thought they had a live one and told him to build his PCR machine it would take two IBM time sharing computers. I suppose they wanted some really great toys. Dr. Sean Michael McCown was sitting next to me and I was muttering about how stupid that was and he made me address Dr. Mullis. I said that I could do it with a micro-computer and Mick and I were given the project and I delivered. But we weren't in good stead with those two PhD's and as soon as I finished the largest iteration they canned me. But the die was cast and I continued an upward trajectory from there.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/27/2019 1:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:31:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> It depends heavily on choice of major.
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/01/22/the-college-degrees-that-get-the-most-job-offers/#6953ef02c4eb
>> IIRC, engineering used to top that list.
>
> This list is originally from GlassDoor.com for 2017:
> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffkauflin/2017/05/23/the-20-most-popular-jobs-for-college-graduates/#1312de3671b4>
> Engineering is #11.

That list is sort of an inversion. Rather than listing majors and who
got jobs, it lists jobs and which majors ended up there. Based on some
characters I've known, it could list "Coffee shop workers" top majors
"English."

> Sales associate is #1, which is rather odd because the list is suppose
> to be for college graduates. I guess a college education is now
> required to operate a cash register. 12,000 openings for entry level
> sales associate.

Not to rag (too much) on English majors, but a cartoon I had posted in
my office showed two guys discussing garbage. Their conversation was
something like "It seems to me the garbage represents the failed hopes
and dreams of the middle class..." and "But I think it's more an
allegory for the cycle of life, of death, burial and renewal..."

The cartoon showed two garbage men emptying trash cans into a truck. The
caption was "English majors."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B. Slocomb]

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 18:46:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Years ago, when I was in the Air Force, a young airman asked me what
collage courses I would suggest he take. I told him to write some
large corporations and ask what skills would make him likely to be
hired. He did and reported that General Motors, Ford and (I forget the
other) had all suggested that a degree in English would be most
acceptable to them.

I was rather surprised as I had assumed that engineering would be the
most wanted skill but even in the more technical industries non
engineering skills such as marketing and finance seem to be of major
importance.



Cheers,
John B.

[AMuzi]

Peter Drucker: "Nothing gets done until somebody sells
something."


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B. Slocomb]

Lee Iacocca comes to mind here, or even Microsoft a company started by
two blokes neither of whom had a collage education :-)


Cheers,
John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 07:24:09 +0700, John B. Slocomb
<sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Years ago, when I was in the Air Force, a young airman asked me what
>collage courses I would suggest he take. I told him to write some
>large corporations and ask what skills would make him likely to be
>hired. He did and reported that General Motors, Ford and (I forget the
>other) had all suggested that a degree in English would be most
>acceptable to them.
>
>I was rather surprised as I had assumed that engineering would be the
>most wanted skill but even in the more technical industries non
>engineering skills such as marketing and finance seem to be of major
>importance.

I'm not surprised. During the 1980's, I was seeing large number of
H1B visa carrying engineers from various foreign countries (mostly
China and India). They could do marginal electronic design, but
lacked all but the most basic English reading and writing skills.
Technical English was lost cause. I assumed that English was somehow
not very important to the companies that imported and hired them. I'm
told that things have improved in the last 30 years. It's possible
that the young airman managed to contact the direct supervisors of
such people, where a deficiency in English language skills would have
the biggest effect. Something might have been lost in conveying the
message because I doubt these supervisors had intended to hire English
language majors and then teaching them engineering.

Incidentally, I've been interviewed and hired by companies, only to
find that the job description wasn't even close to what I was expected
to do for the company. At best, I had a week or two performing
something resembling the original job description, only to have it
radically change. These were not minor variations of some obscure
design skill, but rather radical changes requiring unfamiliar skills
which involved substantial reading and studying. These were sometimes
accompanied by major division level reorganizations. Despite feeling
like I was walking on quicksand, designs were completed, deadlines
were met, and products delivered. There were many casualties, mostly
among the foreign engineers.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 17:45:00 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 07:24:09 +0700, John B. Slocomb
><sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Years ago, when I was in the Air Force, a young airman asked me what
>>collage courses I would suggest he take. I told him to write some
>>large corporations and ask what skills would make him likely to be
>>hired. He did and reported that General Motors, Ford and (I forget the
>>other) had all suggested that a degree in English would be most
>>acceptable to them.
>>
>>I was rather surprised as I had assumed that engineering would be the
>>most wanted skill but even in the more technical industries non
>>engineering skills such as marketing and finance seem to be of major
>>importance.
>
>I'm not surprised. During the 1980's, I was seeing large number of
>H1B visa carrying engineers from various foreign countries (mostly
>China and India). They could do marginal electronic design, but
>lacked all but the most basic English reading and writing skills.
>Technical English was lost cause. I assumed that English was somehow
>not very important to the companies that imported and hired them. I'm
>told that things have improved in the last 30 years. It's possible
>that the young airman managed to contact the direct supervisors of
>such people, where a deficiency in English language skills would have
>the biggest effect. Something might have been lost in conveying the
>message because I doubt these supervisors had intended to hire English
>language majors and then teaching them engineering.
>

It was a long time ago but he probably addressed his inquiries to "The
Personal Manager" or some such figure.

>Incidentally, I've been interviewed and hired by companies, only to
>find that the job description wasn't even close to what I was expected
>to do for the company. At best, I had a week or two performing
>something resembling the original job description, only to have it
>radically change. These were not minor variations of some obscure
>design skill, but rather radical changes requiring unfamiliar skills
>which involved substantial reading and studying. These were sometimes
>accompanied by major division level reorganizations. Despite feeling
>like I was walking on quicksand, designs were completed, deadlines
>were met, and products delivered. There were many casualties, mostly
>among the foreign engineers.

My experiences as a manager was that engineers, like all people, vary
a lot. Some are an asset and others are not :-)



Cheers,
John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'll admit, the woman who taught the first robot programming course I
ever took was an English major who started as a secretary. She was
eventually charged with translating the robot manuals from Japanese
English to, well, English. And in the process, she learned more about
the programming than anyone else.

She was really cute, too. That helped a class full of engineers pay
attention, I'm sure.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I ran into the wife of one of my graduates from long ago. I asked what
he was doing professionally, and although he started in mechanical
engineering, he had moved into some other (better) position with the
same company with a very different skill set.

Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really learned
in college was how to learn."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

If I'm hiring for an engineering position, most definitely I'm looking for
brains and talent, but if they can't get their ideas out of their head and
into somebody else's (communications skills), I won't hire them.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 22:56:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski

When I was in Japan I came up with the idea of translating
Japanese-English to American-English and approached a couple of
companies about sub-contracting the writing of their manuals.

No one seemed interested and I finally determined that I was talking
to people who were "expert" English speakers and thus needed no help
in writing manuals :-)

Apparently the Chinese learned the art of manual writing from the
Japanese as their manuals are very reminiscent of the 1950 - 60's
Japanese manuals :-)


Cheers,
John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 2:24:41 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 22:56:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >On 1/27/2019 7:24 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

> >> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 18:46:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 1/27/2019 1:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

IIRC, that's precisely how Jobst Brandt got his foot in the door
at Porsche, where he eventually did engineering work.

- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:02:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really learned
>in college was how to learn."

That's the stock platitude delivered by colleges to justify the abuse
they inflict on their students. The real answer is that he didn't
learn much in college beyond that it was mostly a waste of time and
that real learning is performed on the job.

The key part of the college ordeal process is obtaining the diploma,
which demonstrates to prospective employers that the possessor of the
diploma willingly survived 4+ years of abuse, time wasting, overwork,
lost revenue, and drivel (attention to detail). From the employers
perspective, these are the most desirable attributes of a successful
engineering employee. In addition, the diploma possessor has
demonstrated that he can be motivated by a vague long term goal, with
minimal guarantee of success, while being asked to perform a variety
of un-natural acts. Looking back, my greatest skill was learning to
ignore the obvious.

Considering the high probability of obsolescence and age
discrimination in engineering, perhaps this college graduate might
have done better if you had used his new found learning abilities to
do some career planning? Few do.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Most of the companies I worked for didn't fail from the products which invariably worked up to specification but the lack of someone that knew how to sell them,

[Theodore Heise]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 10:56:32 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:02:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really
> >learned in college was how to learn."
>
> That's the stock platitude delivered by colleges to justify the
> abuse they inflict on their students. The real answer is that
> he didn't learn much in college beyond that it was mostly a
> waste of time and that real learning is performed on the job.

https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-01-21


--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Zen Cycle]

http://www.engrish.com/

yes, that's "engrish"

[Zen Cycle]

On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 1:56:36 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:02:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really learned
> >in college was how to learn."
>
> That's the stock platitude delivered by colleges to justify the abuse
> they inflict on their students. The real answer is that he didn't
> learn much in college beyond that it was mostly a waste of time and
> that real learning is performed on the job.

gee, that's only a little bit cynical. There are in fact some instances where students are taught how to think, and how to learn. Granted, the scenario you posit is the general rule, but my recent experience with hiring engineering interns has shown me that all is not lost. (I don't hire the interns, but for some reason I'm usually end up being their manager). Out of the last 5, two have been duds (one was completely useless), one was pleasant and easy to work with though lacking in skills (she was only a sophomore at UMass), and two have been fantastic. Those two are both from Northeastern University. We hired one after he graduated, and the second is still in school. Unfortunately Northeastern has a policy that an intern must work at _three_ different companies, and we're only his second. We're hoping he's still interested when he enters the workforce for real.

The thing we like about the two northeastern students and the UMAss student was their work ethic. They left their cellphones on their desks, were attentive and engaging in discussions, and sought criticism for their work.

All is not lost.

[John B. Slocomb]

I don't remember why I thought it but for some reason I believed that
Brandt hired on at Porsche as a draftsman.


Cheers,
John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 10:56:32 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:02:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really learned
>>in college was how to learn."
>
>That's the stock platitude delivered by colleges to justify the abuse
>they inflict on their students. The real answer is that he didn't
>learn much in college beyond that it was mostly a waste of time and
>that real learning is performed on the job.
>
>The key part of the college ordeal process is obtaining the diploma,
>which demonstrates to prospective employers that the possessor of the
>diploma willingly survived 4+ years of abuse, time wasting, overwork,
>lost revenue, and drivel (attention to detail). From the employers
>perspective, these are the most desirable attributes of a successful
>engineering employee. In addition, the diploma possessor has
>demonstrated that he can be motivated by a vague long term goal, with
>minimal guarantee of success, while being asked to perform a variety
>of un-natural acts. Looking back, my greatest skill was learning to
>ignore the obvious.
>
>Considering the high probability of obsolescence and age
>discrimination in engineering, perhaps this college graduate might
>have done better if you had used his new found learning abilities to
>do some career planning? Few do.

Perhaps that is why we never hired an engineer simply because he had
graduated from collage. We hired engineers based on their work
experience, which is also why a P.E. licence (Professional Engineer)
carries a certain amount of weight.

I guess that we assumed that a graduate engineer would have basic
knowledge... how to calculate the stress on a beam for example, but
might not be qualified to design a bridge.

I might even go a little further. We assumed that any collage graduate
with no experience was essentially useless in the terms of doing work
and just didn't hire them unless the terms of a contract required us
to have a certain number of warm bodies assigned to the job.


Cheers,
John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 13:52:38 -0800 (PST), Zen Cycle
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>http://www.engrish.com/
>yes, that's "engrish"

My contribution:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/china-menu.jpg>

Sometimes pride is a good thing. Other times, it can be not so good.

In a past life, I worked for SCC Japan (Standard Communications Corp,
now a division of Yeasu).
<http://www.standardhorizon.com>
My official job was to retrofit CTCSS (continuous tone-coded squelch
system) boards into existing radio products. My unofficial job was to
translate the manuals and instructions from Japanese flavored English
into American English. I could have done better by starting with the
original Japanese, but those documents were allegedly unavailable even
though I knew they existed. It seemed that the Japanese had a great
deal of pride in their products, work, and documentation. So much
pride that getting them to admit that there might be a problem and
then doing something about it was impossible. I did my best, but
someone much better at decoding the manuals was quickly found, thus
saving me from having to learn the Japanese language.

SCC had a really good work-travel program for their employees.
Technicians from Japan would work at the factory in California for
about 9 months, and then travel around the USA for the remaining 3
months of the year. One day, I arrived at work to find the leader of
the Japanese contingent demanding that we drive to the home of one of
these techs. We did so, only to find the tech preparing to commit
suicide. After some discussion in Japanese, he was talked out of such
a drastic action. His error was forgetting to turn down the
temperature setting on an environmental oven used for burning in
radios during the day shift, and warming pizzas at night.

Somewhat later, I was in a position to hire a technician. One
Japanese candidate seemed especially knowledgeable and seemed
experienced. The problem was that I could not get him to disclose
anything about his prior work experience. He had worked as part of a
team and considered it unacceptable to assume credit for the work of
the team. It took a few days and some long distance phone calls to
untangle the problem.

I was going to say something clever about how one might react to
reading "Wienermobile Driver" as experience on a resume. Then, I
remember that my resume has "Owner of 4WD communications service
truck" on it, which attracted more attention from potential employers
than anything else on my resume. I eventually determined that by the
time potential employers had finished interviewing a large number of
prospective engineers, they were terminally bored with the repetitive
questions and answers. A discussion about my service truck was an
easily available distraction after we dispensed with the basics.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 1:56:36 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:02:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really learned
> >in college was how to learn."
>
> That's the stock platitude delivered by colleges to justify the abuse
> they inflict on their students. The real answer is that he didn't
> learn much in college beyond that it was mostly a waste of time and
> that real learning is performed on the job.

Really?

It seems to follow that he should have skipped the college education and... done what, exactly? Gotten an engineering job without the degree? Few people have
much success at that.

As I understand it, the guy's move to a better position within the company was
voluntary, not mandatory. He could have stayed in the job he had, if he had
wanted to. But I'll admit I don't know all the details.

> Considering the high probability of obsolescence and age
> discrimination in engineering, perhaps this college graduate might
> have done better if you had used his new found learning abilities to
> do some career planning? Few do.

Regarding career planning: I do think career counseling (and therefore planning)
is one of the key weaknesses of our society. Most high school graduates have
absolutely no idea what they should consider for careers, and I think that's why
most people are not very happy in their professional situations.

Especially in my early teaching years, I frequently taught the "Intro" course
for new students. I spent the first few hours explaining the field, what the job
was like, and advising them to refer to two books put out by the government, the
Occupational Outlook Handbooks - one for careers requiring post-secondary
education, the other for careers without that requirement. Those described
salary ranges, working conditions, future prospects and much else. I also
pointed students to the counseling and testing center on campus, which was
equipped to give good career advice.

Oh, and if students weren't intellectually capable of succeeding at the career,
I let them know that by their letter grades. That was another service I
provided.

Finally, I do think many if not most engineers are overworked and undervalued.
Sorry, I don't have a solution for that.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B. Slocomb]

My guess is because most engineers don't generate money for the
company. Not that they aren't important but when the sales department
generates all that beautiful money and the engineering department is
simply another cost center... who gets the glory?


Cheers,
John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 19:56:56 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 1:56:36 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:02:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> >Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really learned
>> >in college was how to learn."
>>
>> That's the stock platitude delivered by colleges to justify the abuse
>> they inflict on their students. The real answer is that he didn't
>> learn much in college beyond that it was mostly a waste of time and
>> that real learning is performed on the job.

>Really?

Yep. I was rather shocked at how little I knew and how much I was
expected to learn when I finally obtained an engineering position.
During the 1960's, when I went to skool, it was customary to require
students to work independently. Collaboration was considered a crime
and subject to expulsion followed by getting drafted into the army.
However, when I began doing engineering, I was expected to work
efficiently as part of a team. I didn't know how to do that.
Fortunately, I had plenty of mentoring and help from my friends and
associates. Learning came quickly. Appreciation, understanding,
tact, and diplomacy took a while longer. I also had problems
understanding that there NEVER was enough information available to
completely solve a problem, and that there was always more than one
right answer or solution. I often did better relying on intuition
than relying on rigorous calculation. I'll spare you my usual rant
about the value of a "well rounded education" and "general education"
type classes.

>It seems to follow that he should have skipped the college education
>and... done what, exactly?

Gone to work in the "trades" and get as much experience in the
practical aspects of the areas bordering his chose profession. A
little of everything and them move on. At the same time, he should
have worked evenings on obtaining his college degree. I've worked
with several engineers who did that. I would consider the results to
have been quite good.

>Gotten an engineering job without the degree? Few people have
>much success at that.

I worked for several of those. My favorite engineering manager was
originally a mathematician, psychologist, and some other fields that I
can't seem to recall. Her job was to make sure that the job got done
within budget and within schedule. She trusted the engineers to do
the right thing. No engineering degree, but she ran a department full
of engineers. Yes, it can be done.

Assorted lists of entrepreneurs, CEO's, business leaders, and
innovators who didn't have a diploma:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=company+founders+without+college+degrees>
Again, the only thing the diploma indicates is that the holder is
willing and able to survive 4+ years of abuse by academia, which
demonstrates to prospective employers that they can concentrate on
very specific goals and do whatever is necessary to achieve them. If
someone has no intention of being hired by an employer, the diploma is
totally worthless.

Incidentally, I graduated college in 1971. Since then, NOBODY has
asked for my grade point average. A few asked where I went to college
and whether I actually graduated. It seemed like college was just a
rite of passage or a ticket to the profession, with little real or
intrinsic value.

>As I understand it, the guy's move to a better position within the company was
>voluntary, not mandatory. He could have stayed in the job he had, if he had
>wanted to. But I'll admit I don't know all the details.

You might be wrong. Declining advancement in a corporation is a great
way to be sidelined. Nobody within the corporation will ever ask this
person to accept a better position again. The company leadership
usually assumes that only they can do the career planning. Anyone
that fails to cooperate with their plan, is left behind to go find
another job. Whether this person is qualified, is interested, wrecks
his home life, moves his family away from skool and friend, etc is of
little consequence. The corporation needs a body and he's the
designated victim.

Drivel: IBM means "I've Been Moved".

>> Considering the high probability of obsolescence and age
>> discrimination in engineering, perhaps this college graduate might
>> have done better if you had used his new found learning abilities to
>> do some career planning? Few do.

>Regarding career planning: I do think career counseling (and therefore planning)
>is one of the key weaknesses of our society. Most high school graduates have
>absolutely no idea what they should consider for careers,

Yep. I believe that I posted my horror story of delivering a talk to
the local high skool graduating seniors on what engineering is really
like. Most had no idea what it would be like to be an engineer. See
my previous rant on my illusions, where I would wear a white shirt and
narrow tie to work while swinging a t-square.

>and I think that's why
>most people are not very happy in their professional situations.

The same people are probably not happy with anything they do.

I'm a life long bachelor. I've never been married (although I've come
close). In theory, I do what I want, when I want, without asking or
considering others. People I know sometimes announce that they're
jealous of my life style and freedom, while they are buried in family
problems, relationships, and financial burdens. To these, the grass
seems greener on the other side of the fence. Same with engineers or
any other long term profession. We can do something to reduce their
boredom, improve their lifestyle, and compensate with better pay. In
my case, I reduce boredom by having multiple professions. I've turned
my hobby into a profession twice in my life. It works, but is
difficult. I only know one other engineer that does the same thing.

>Especially in my early teaching years, I frequently taught the "Intro" course
>for new students. I spent the first few hours explaining the field, what the job
>was like, and advising them to refer to two books put out by the government, the
>Occupational Outlook Handbooks - one for careers requiring post-secondary
>education, the other for careers without that requirement. Those described
>salary ranges, working conditions, future prospects and much else. I also
>pointed students to the counseling and testing center on campus, which was
>equipped to give good career advice.

See the section on becoming a "Computer Security Expert":
<https://youtu.be/LYE3GtXqDV0?t=202>

>Oh, and if students weren't intellectually capable of succeeding at the career,
>I let them know that by their letter grades. That was another service I
>provided.

That may be the only form of feedback that they get. Have you advised
any student to go to a trade skool instead of college? I've done that
(unofficially) and immediately incurred the wrath of the parents,
teachers, advisors, the tutor, and the skool administration. The kid
in question went to work for the local mechanical contractor, took
business management classes on the side, and about 10 years later now
owns a moderately successful HVAC business.

>Finally, I do think many if not most engineers are overworked and undervalued.
>Sorry, I don't have a solution for that.

Yeah, it's a common enough problem. It's fairly easy to see that
cause. These engineers go to college, where they demonstrate 4+ years
of taking abuse from the college. They are then hired by a
corporation because they have demonstrated that they can take it. Far
be it for the employer not to take advantage of the situation and
continue to abuse these engineers.

Perhaps an example will help. I haven't read the engineering
magazines for quite a while, but there used to be "Ideas for Design"
and design contests in these magazines. Engineers would willingly
submit their creations to the magazine so that everyone can admire and
plagiarize their work. Meanwhile, the legal journals have nothing
like that. Sure, there are legal briefs and opinions, but those are
released after the case is tried, not as part of contest. The
difference is that engineers are taught to give away the golden goose
eggs, while lawyers are taught to horde them.

China has it even worse, where abused engineers sometimes opt for a
suicidal solution:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides>
There were also some rather callous remarks by Foxconn upper
management, which seem to have disappeared from the web. Hopefully,
our overworked and undervalued engineers will not be pushed this far.

I also don't have a solution. Perhaps if we look at what has made it
so easy for engineers to be abused, a solution might magically appear.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 19:25:32 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

In English it is termed "pride", in most Asian languages it is called
"face" and it is important in "their" society. In Japanese one can
insult someone simply by not using the proper honorific to address
them.

>Somewhat later, I was in a position to hire a technician. One
>Japanese candidate seemed especially knowledgeable and seemed
>experienced. The problem was that I could not get him to disclose
>anything about his prior work experience. He had worked as part of a
>team and considered it unacceptable to assume credit for the work of
>the team. It took a few days and some long distance phone calls to
>untangle the problem.
>
>I was going to say something clever about how one might react to
>reading "Wienermobile Driver" as experience on a resume. Then, I
>remember that my resume has "Owner of 4WD communications service
>truck" on it, which attracted more attention from potential employers
>than anything else on my resume. I eventually determined that by the
>time potential employers had finished interviewing a large number of
>prospective engineers, they were terminally bored with the repetitive
>questions and answers. A discussion about my service truck was an
>easily available distraction after we dispensed with the basics.

I once was in a position that was termed by the client as a "Master
Mechanic", which was simply a Maintenance Manager in actuality. But it
sounded pretty good so I put it on my resume.

In most of the jobs for ex-pats in this part of the world you first
get to talk to the "personnel manager" who is more or less a buffer
for the working departments and if you have a skill that is needed
then you get to talk to the department manager.

So, when I finished my tour as Master Mechanic at the mine I was in
Singapore looking for a job and went to one of the offshore drilling
companies and handed in my resume and the P.M. practically glowed.
You! Are a Master Mechanic!

As it turned out I didn't get a job and I found out later that they
didn't need a "Master Mechanic"; what they needed was a "Mechanic" :-)


Cheers,
John B.

[Theodore Heise]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 12:18:52 +0700,
John B Slocomb <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 19:25:32 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 13:52:38 -0800 (PST), Zen Cycle
> ><funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>http://www.engrish.com/
> >>yes, that's "engrish"
> >
> >My contribution:
> ><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/china-menu.jpg>

My favorite was the English name over the door of a store in
Okinawa selling second-hand clothing and furniture for infants:

"Used Babies"

> >Sometimes pride is a good thing. Other times, it can be not so
> >good.

> >SCC had a really good work-travel program for their employees.
> >Technicians from Japan would work at the factory in California
> >for about 9 months, and then travel around the USA for the
> >remaining 3 months of the year. One day, I arrived at work to
> >find the leader of the Japanese contingent demanding that we
> >drive to the home of one of these techs. We did so, only to
> >find the tech preparing to commit suicide. After some
> >discussion in Japanese, he was talked out of such a drastic
> >action. His error was forgetting to turn down the temperature
> >setting on an environmental oven used for burning in radios
> >during the day shift, and warming pizzas at night.
>
> In English it is termed "pride", in most Asian languages it is
> called "face" and it is important in "their" society. In
> Japanese one can insult someone simply by not using the proper
> honorific to address them.

Exactly right, in my experience (from many dozens of trips to
Japan).

> >Somewhat later, I was in a position to hire a technician. One
> >Japanese candidate seemed especially knowledgeable and seemed
> >experienced. The problem was that I could not get him to
> >disclose anything about his prior work experience. He had
> >worked as part of a team and considered it unacceptable to
> >assume credit for the work of the team.

It may have been somewhat more complex than that. My experience
in Japanese culture has been that consenus is critically important
and that individual views are not well received. At one point I
had an employee who was native-born Japanese, but had lived in
many parts of the world because his father was a Japanese
diplomat. This guy had excellent English, but was deeply rooted
in Japanese culture. He described the typical Japanese reaction
to individuals with their own opinions as being, "nails that stick
out and need to be pounded down."

[AMuzi]

Great stories. My Japan idiomatic translation story is being
asked to join the next morning in 'biking breakfast'. It
seems that 'smorgasbord' doesn't roll off the tongue for
Japanese and, having no 'v' sound, the closest to
Scandinavian style is 'biking'.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/29/2019 12:18 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 19:56:56 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 1:56:36 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:02:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Supposedly, he told his wife "It doesn't matter. What I really learned
>>>> in college was how to learn."
>>>
>>> That's the stock platitude delivered by colleges to justify the abuse
>>> they inflict on their students. The real answer is that he didn't
>>> learn much in college beyond that it was mostly a waste of time and
>>> that real learning is performed on the job.
>
>> Really?
>
> Yep. I was rather shocked at how little I knew and how much I was
> expected to learn when I finally obtained an engineering position.

But it's well known that there is much to be learned once someone's
actually in the field, almost like an apprentice situation. Any
engineering program must teach a pile of fundamentals - forces,
accelerations, stresses, current flow, frequencies, bearing pressure,
interfacing, programming and tons more.

If the school knew precisely what job the graduate would get hired for
(as do the programs that teach diesel engine repair) they could teach
exactly what, and only what, the student would need. But engineering
isn't like that. You have to get the fundamentals, then learn the
specifics as they apply to your particular company and particular job's
responsibilities. And in most cases, you can't learn the specifics
unless you have those fundamentals.

> During the 1960's, when I went to skool, it was customary to require
> students to work independently. Collaboration was considered a crime
> and subject to expulsion followed by getting drafted into the army.
> However, when I began doing engineering, I was expected to work
> efficiently as part of a team.

?? You didn't work in teams doing lab work in college? You didn't work
in teams staying up late studying for tests, or doing homework? If
that's true, your experience was much different from mine, and from my
students'. I always heavily encouraged teamwork even on homework
projects - but put strict limits on just copying. Ditto on lab projects,
of which there were many. Details on request.

>> It seems to follow that he should have skipped the college education
>> and... done what, exactly?
>
> Gone to work in the "trades" and get as much experience in the
> practical aspects of the areas bordering his chose profession. A
> little of everything and them move on. At the same time, he should
> have worked evenings on obtaining his college degree. I've worked
> with several engineers who did that. I would consider the results to
> have been quite good.

I had many students who did something like that. For one thing, our
program conferred an Associate's Degree after two years, which was quite
marketable. One large local employer hired lots of those guys and helped
them by covering lots of the cost of completing the Bachelor's Degree.

But because of that, most of our junior and senior courses were taught
only in the evenings. That allowed lots of people who worked for
manufacturing firms, etc. to get their degrees part time after work
hours, once they realized that it would definitely be worth it. It's a
very, very tough project, but hundreds of them pulled it off. (And BTW,
the fact that they were already employed but saw the value of the degree
- and that in many cases their employers paid for their educations -
indicates that there IS real value in that education.)

And it was always great to have those guys in classes. The guys fresh
out of high school sometimes got "deer in the headlights" looks when
in-class conversations with those older guys made it clear that "No,
this stuff is not just book work. This is real! You really need to learn
this!"

>> Gotten an engineering job without the degree? Few people have
>> much success at that.
>
> I worked for several of those. My favorite engineering manager was
> originally a mathematician, psychologist, and some other fields that I
> can't seem to recall. Her job was to make sure that the job got done
> within budget and within schedule. She trusted the engineers to do
> the right thing. No engineering degree, but she ran a department full
> of engineers. Yes, it can be done.

But hold on: She was managing the department. She wasn't doing the
engineering. There has to be a cadre of people who actually know how to
crunch the numbers, choose the design parameters, run the simulations or
whatever. In real life, "Teach me to be an engineer" doesn't work. See
https://dilbert.com/strip/1999-10-27

> Incidentally, I graduated college in 1971. Since then, NOBODY has
> asked for my grade point average. A few asked where I went to college
> and whether I actually graduated. It seemed like college was just a
> rite of passage or a ticket to the profession, with little real or
> intrinsic value.

Well. I remember precisely two times that a mommy contacted me about her
precious but unsuccessful son. One time was after a guy graduated by the
skin of his teeth. He'd had to repeat several classes, he rarely got a
grade above C, and he just barely cleared the minimum GPA for the degree.

His mommy called me because he couldn't get a job. Obviously, _someone_
was looking at his GPA. And in his case, it was a very good thing they
did. I'd have hated to have him get a job and have his employer think he
was representative of our competent graduates. But in his case, the
degree was NOT a "ticket to the profession."

>> Oh, and if students weren't intellectually capable of succeeding at the career,
>> I let them know that by their letter grades. That was another service I
>> provided.
>
> That may be the only form of feedback that they get. Have you advised
> any student to go to a trade skool instead of college? I've done that
> (unofficially) and immediately incurred the wrath of the parents,
> teachers, advisors, the tutor, and the skool administration.

Yes, I have - or at least, told some students gently but emphatically
that they really needed to go to the Counseling and Testing Center and
find some field that they'd have a better chance of success.

And let me tell you, that's a difficult thing to tell a student. I have
spent _hours_ in my office, helping people try to learn the concepts. I
recall one very nice guy in his mid-50s who had been laid off from some
manufacturing job. He was trying like hell to learn. He was getting
financial assistance, he had a family to take care of, he was working
himself into the ground, but he just didn't have the mental horsepower.
It was very, very sad.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/29/2019 9:26 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Great stories. My Japan idiomatic translation story is being asked to
> join the next morning in 'biking breakfast'.  It seems that
> 'smorgasbord' doesn't roll off the tongue for Japanese and, having no
> 'v' sound, the closest to Scandinavian style is 'biking'.

More detail on that: As I understand it, when babies are just beginning
to learn language, they are capable of (eventually) processing almost
any sound made by other humans. But in the process of learning, they
actually develop filters that cause them to focus only on the sounds
present in their target language. In time, especially once they are
adults, they become (nearly?) incapable of detecting some subtleties of
sound that are not part of their language.

So adults that (say) live in the U.S. for decades but still have accents
can probably not even hear the differences between how they speak and
how others speak.

I've been in a language class where the teacher was telling us "No, the
sound is not 'ssshhh.' The sound is 'ssshhh.' Can't you hear that
difference?"

Answer: Nope.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[slto...@gmail.com]

While in my experience the very smartest engineers and scientists have advanced degrees MOST of them are pretty stupid.

Most of the really effective working engineers and scientists are almost entirely self trained.

When I was in middle school they decided that I didn't have enough intelligence to be put in the college prep classes. My IQ is 145. So the decision of one teacher who didn't like a kid with blonde hair and brown skin could have set my future.

[slto...@gmail.com]

You should see the job applications around here. 10 years experience as a bachelors and NO experience if you are a PhD for a hot job that needs someone to hit the floor running.

Experience seems not to count around here for anything. I will get hiring companies calling me all the time asking me if I'd be interested in this job or that. I don't call them. So why do they then send me an email saying that I'm not qualified to do firmware since I haven't worked since the end of 2014. That is in my resume.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:40:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/29/2019 9:26 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Great stories. My Japan idiomatic translation story is being asked to
>> join the next morning in 'biking breakfast'.  It seems that
>> 'smorgasbord' doesn't roll off the tongue for Japanese and, having no
>> 'v' sound, the closest to Scandinavian style is 'biking'.
>
>More detail on that: As I understand it, when babies are just beginning
>to learn language, they are capable of (eventually) processing almost
>any sound made by other humans. But in the process of learning, they
>actually develop filters that cause them to focus only on the sounds
>present in their target language. In time, especially once they are
>adults, they become (nearly?) incapable of detecting some subtleties of
>sound that are not part of their language.
>

Certainly. My Thai wife literally cannot pronounce the "L" sound. Luck
is pronounced "ruck". And I might add, it took me many days of
practice before I could pronounce the "ng" sound in the word ngo
(stupid) or ngu (snake).

>So adults that (say) live in the U.S. for decades but still have accents
>can probably not even hear the differences between how they speak and
>how others speak.

True :-) I "think" that my Thai is perfect although strangers often
have a problem understanding me :-)

>I've been in a language class where the teacher was telling us "No, the
>sound is not 'ssshhh.' The sound is 'ssshhh.' Can't you hear that
>difference?"
>
>Answer: Nope.

Cheers,
John B.

[news18]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:59:07 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

> Experience seems not to count around here for anything. I will get
> hiring companies calling me all the time asking me if I'd be interested
> in this job or that. I don't call them. So why do they then send me an
> email saying that I'm not qualified to do firmware since I haven't
> worked since the end of 2014. That is in my resume.

They don't actually "read' your resume. They have software that
"character"/word matches. Been that way for decades.

In decades past my resume include CP/M with blah, blah and dBase II. the
number of calls I got wanting IBM mainframe dBase II was very large.

I very quickly culled the number of agencies I'd deal with and then
finally stopped using them at all.

Firstly, they want to show their customer(the employing company) they
have lots of resumes to hand and second they want to block other
companies fulfilling the job.

[news18]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:53:25 -0800, sltom992 wrote:


> When I was in middle school they decided that I didn't have enough
> intelligence to be put in the college prep classes. My IQ is 145.

Lol, haven't you learn't that IQ tests are crap and indicate nothing more
that your relative score on a particular test on that day. They are also
a total burden through out your early life.

[news18]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 07:21:06 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:40:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 1/29/2019 9:26 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> Great stories. My Japan idiomatic translation story is being asked to
>>> join the next morning in 'biking breakfast'.  It seems that
>>> 'smorgasbord' doesn't roll off the tongue for Japanese and, having no
>>> 'v' sound, the closest to Scandinavian style is 'biking'.
>>
>>More detail on that: As I understand it, when babies are just beginning
>>to learn language, they are capable of (eventually) processing almost
>>any sound made by other humans. But in the process of learning, they
>>actually develop filters that cause them to focus only on the sounds
>>present in their target language. In time, especially once they are
>>adults, they become (nearly?) incapable of detecting some subtleties of
>>sound that are not part of their language.
>>
> Certainly. My Thai wife literally cannot pronounce the "L" sound. Luck
> is pronounced "ruck". And I might add, it took me many days of practice
> before I could pronounce the "ng" sound in the word ngo (stupid) or ngu
> (snake).

Or Vietnamese names like "Ng"
Me; How do you pronounce that?
Him; Just call me John.
SWMBO'd can pronounce it perfectly after her decades teaching kids in
school and she also had the ability of telling POMs what parts of the UK
they had lived in from her few years over there.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Well, that's the belief of people that don't understand what IQ tests are designed to measure. Which is the ability to understand what you are reading. Granted that this was relatively easy for me because I read out two libraries before ever taking one of these tests but they are not complete crap as you would have people believe.

As I noted elsewhere, only a very small percentage of college students work in their major at any time in their lives. So that specialized study is nothing more than a waste of time and money.

And putting people into college prep course based on classroom performance instead of actual ability is pretty silly. I probably wouldn't have gone to college but I could have saved a great deal of study time on English and Mathematics since I never used carpentry much and mathematics a great deal.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 10:14:43 AM UTC-8, slto...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 5:35:35 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
> > On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:53:25 -0800, sltom992 wrote:
> >
> >
> > > When I was in middle school they decided that I didn't have enough
> > > intelligence to be put in the college prep classes. My IQ is 145.
> >
> > Lol, haven't you learn't that IQ tests are crap and indicate nothing more
> > that your relative score on a particular test on that day. They are also
> > a total burden through out your early life.
>
> Well, that's the belief of people that don't understand what IQ tests are designed to measure. Which is the ability to understand what you are reading. Granted that this was relatively easy for me because I read out two libraries before ever taking one of these tests but they are not complete crap as you would have people believe.
>
> As I noted elsewhere, only a very small percentage of college students work in their major at any time in their lives. So that specialized study is nothing more than a waste of time and money.

Waxing a car has nothing to do with karate. Or does it? College is waxing cars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fULNUr0rvEc

My IQ is 270. Stephen Hawking stole my theory on black holes.

-- Jay Beattie.

[news18]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 10:14:41 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 5:35:35 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:53:25 -0800, sltom992 wrote:
>>
>>
>> > When I was in middle school they decided that I didn't have enough
>> > intelligence to be put in the college prep classes. My IQ is 145.
>>
>> Lol, haven't you learn't that IQ tests are crap and indicate nothing
>> more that your relative score on a particular test on that day. They
>> are also a total burden through out your early life.
>
> Well, that's the belief of people that don't understand what IQ tests
> are designed to measure. Which is the ability to understand what you are
> reading.

Err nope. That is just a badly designed IQ test.

> Granted that this was relatively easy for me because I read out
> two libraries before ever taking one of these tests but they are not
> complete crap as you would have people believe.

Gee, I didn't even know what a library was before I took my first test
and woops scored higher than you.

Hint, IQ isn't knowledge per see and testing for knowledge does not make
a good IQ test.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Here's a hint - after you make a really stupid comment and then double down on it you don't look all that bright. I liked the pert where you couldn't read but took a written test.

[news18]

Obviously its pertency did not gel with you in your rush to your usual
fabrication. Thank you for demonstrating what I posted.

[Zen Cycle]

+1