REI Safari or Surly Long haul Trucker?
m...@privacy.net
Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
landotter
> I want to do some touring this summer.
>
> Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
Both are excellent choices. If you're going to be touring on rougher
terrain, the Novara would probably be a better choice, but other than
that, it's apples and oranges. I think the Surly's pertier. FWIW, the
spec on the Surly is next to perfect, except for the tires--it may
just have been the set I ran--but WTB "Slickasaurus" tires are the
most cheesy flat-prone name brand tires I've ever run. Worth a
consideration before taking off into the sunset for sure, but not a
deal breaker.
m...@privacy.net
OK thanks
I'm 50 and have dreamed of a tour all my life but never
went
I'm now at an age where my health concerns me more than
money or time so will do a tour this summer b4 its too
late
Woland99
>
> Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
I was facing similar choice - wanted a touring bike and
at the end had to decide betw Surly LHT and Novarra Randonee.
For me Novarra Safari was out of a question - I wanted something
that would look like road bike. PLus I had Novarra Viaggio - I guess
you can call it earlier version of Safari and I was VERY unhappy
with that B-shaped handlebar.
I eventually went with Randonee for two reasons - all things being
about the same on both bikes Randonee had much better wheel and I
wanted durable bike. Plus I know everybody in the bike shop at local
REI and those guys are fantastic when it comes to service and repairs.
patrick mitchel
"Woland99" <wola...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2141475c-831d-4eab...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...snip>
> PLus I had Novarra Viaggio - I guess
> you can call it earlier version of Safari and I was VERY unhappy
> with that B-shaped handlebar.
than satisfied with them. What's was the aspect that you found
unsatisfactory in them- the more upright ride they afford?
Interested....Pat
Woland99
> "Woland99" <wolan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I really cannot answer this question in a way that would be
unbiased. My problem with these type of handlebars on Novarra
Viaggio was probably affected to a great degree with fact that
I bought the bike without proper sizing and I could never find
configuration that was comfortable for a longer ride. I used
to commute on it (10-11miles one way) and I constantly had
problems with numbness in my hands. I do not think that there
was enough variety in hand positions to prevent it.
By comparison now I have Novarra Randonee with regular drop
bars and stem that can be raised up so you top bar position
is VERY relaxed. And I have zero problems with my hands.
On that Viaggio I eventually replaced handlebar with MTB style
one and put in steeper stem and made it sortta comfort bike.
m...@privacy.net
OK
My thoughts abt the Safari are that I may need to ride
down some pretty big gravel roads occasionally on a
tour.... as well as good paved roads. I worry abt the
wheels and tires on the LHT or Novara randoneee
m...@privacy.net
>By comparison now I have Novarra Randonee with regular drop
>bars and stem that can be raised up so you top bar position
>is VERY relaxed. And I have zero problems with my hands.
>On that Viaggio I eventually replaced handlebar with MTB style
>one and put in steeper stem and made it sortta comfort bike.
Interesting
Thanks for that opinion
I'm going to REI on Say to ride and look at both bikes
I REALLY REALY need to take a tour this summer and want
to get going with it. I think my soul and body needs
to be outside in the fresh air for extended period of
time and away form desks, computers, cell phones, etc.
Ha!
landotter
Both the LHT and Randonee come with too gimpy of a tire IMHO, but
that's easy to remedy. the LHT has super tough wheels with Deore hubs,
36 spokes, and nice Alex Adventurer rims--certainly I'd bring either
set up to tension before an extended tour. All three are good, solid
choices. The LHT is a little more traditional with choices like Sugino
cranks, bar-ends, square taper BB, regular bend bars,etc. No major
deal breakers.
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
sorting everything out before leaving is best. everything has to go
right where it goes packwise. The mission is orbital.
Touring motels? light load? Conti TT's are OK for the rear but a 35mm
double wall rim, a CR-18 iza good idea. heavy camping loads needa
Pasela Messenger, Conti Contact on the rear with a TT front.
Gravel? If there's a loota dirt upahead then go for a 29er or MTB if
ura short dude. Drag dirt tires along at wider widths than road tires.
Sheldon Brown's website has a rim/tire width graph for switching.
Touring dirt suggest a slightly wider front than rear.
Longer chainstays are better for tracking. MTB give shorter
chainstays, the Monocog comes from cyclocross. Take a look at that
idea. The 29er is stocked with wide slicks for smooth surfaces as well
as Conti knobbies. Overall the 29er/MTB with longer stays may be a
better choice for touring than a traditional sports-tourer
I have a 29er going together for the Front Range, Glacier Conti Divide
and Trans Canada/Myrna Canyon road-a Monocog converted to 3/8 speeds
BUT the cheap asian import japanese sports tourer comes along.
See Pavelka? 'long distance touring' in World Catalog at your library
than tap other books hyperlink.
also many guides for your path. SEARCH: Bicycle Touring Kearny
Stock saddles? try a Specialized Minkow and definitely Spec thorn
proof tubes with a CO2 inflator.
The biggest deal is getting the size right. You want to barrel over
the top of the pedal stroke and not pressure the knee directly
downward while the tuberosities sit on a firm surface without having
inside thighs rub on saddle's sides.
see Campmor.com for polyester T shirts and poly/acrylic socks: keeps
warm when wet or cool when sweating-nooooooooooooooooo cotton. bring a
WalMart painters trap for roadside shelter and bottom tarp.
Woland99
Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
I have not heard too much much good about Alex stuff. I also ride
in area were you have to shift a lot so I was not sure about
bar-end shifters. Plus I know everybody in my REI bike shop, live
10mins drive from there and had VERY positive previous experience
with them.
I wanted to really get a CX or road bike but with my weight I decided
touring bike was better option - did not want to have to fix the
wheels all the time. As I mentioned - that strem on Randonee - that
was a nice touch - you can start it more upright then as you lose
weight move it down to more typical road position.
datakoll
road surfaces but dirt? usually I press along. So I went to Nashbar
and bought 2 discount bars, a mustache bar to tilt and a wrist breaker
trekking double level bar.
There's an adjustable stem: go adjustable stem.
Parts Costs with basic Deore for Monodog touring around $1200. But
that's the whole deal. Wheels MFG axles, Sun Rhyno rims, two sets top
line tires....
prices at MO bottom during winter sales. EG two CR's at $11 each.
pedals $12...
datakoll
buy a police model Mace gas cannister
landotter
Alex rims are great if built right. If I were building some touring
wheels, I'd go for an Adventurer or even a Sun Rhyno over a Mavic--
simply a better value. I've built and ridden several sets of Alex
rims. Never a problem. Good rims made from a nice strong alloy--so
don't be turned off by them in the future.
Funny, ran into D--- from down at the shop a couple days ago--and he
was pissing and moaning about the Alex wheels on his bike--turns out
that they weren't tensioned in any way I could consider reasonable--
you can usually blame the build, not the rim brand.
> I also ride
> in area were you have to shift a lot so I was not sure about
> bar-end shifters. Plus I know everybody in my REI bike shop, live
> 10mins drive from there and had VERY positive previous experience
> with them.
Service is always nice. REI should be able to order and assemble a
LHT, as it's distributed by QBP, if that's an option for somebody with
a Surly preference.
datakoll
narrow tires and ecetra...caws the idea is saving material costs and
giving a narrow air drag profile.
That's snot what touring is about. The 29er/MTB with longer stays and
trail-there's a few- you gotta copy the spec tables and chew thru
them, accepts 32c to 1.25" and that's where the action is in touring
snot a low air drag factor: adapting an easy ride to the surface. Also
why standard tires are no good at this, carcasses are cheaply made.
Hank
Since Mavic was bought by Salomon, they've really gone downhill. While
their Ax19 series is probably better than most of their road stuff,
I'd set the Alex Adventurer side-by-side with an A719, at a third of
the price.
FWIW, I used Salsa Delgado Cross rims when I built my LHT (half the
price of the A719) and they're great, but if I needed to build a new
set, I'd use the Adeventurer, which I was impressed with when I built
wheels for my Nexus Cruiser.
Woland99
I know exactly what you mean - I never toured on the bike but
I do some kayaking and that moment when you push this thing on
the water and it starts bouncing on the waves and you KNOW that
for next 8 hours it will be just you water and wind is the best.
One of these days I would like to ride across Texas. And really
SEE the land.
landotter
Holy crap, just googled--you're right, they're listing at $75!! An
Adventurer is the same weight, tough, easy to build and $25. No
brainer.
>
> FWIW, I used Salsa Delgado Cross rims when I built my LHT (half the
> price of the A719) and they're great, but if I needed to build a new
> set, I'd use the Adeventurer, which I was impressed with when I built
> wheels for my Nexus Cruiser.
Those Delgados look great on paper--I've got them mentally filed away
if I want to build a set of "light touring" wheels, as they look to be
perfect for a set of 32mm Paselas or similar poofy-fast tire.
Woland99
> Holy crap, just googled--you're right, they're listing at $75!! An
> Adventurer is the same weight, tough, easy to build and $25. No
> brainer.
>
Dunno - maybe that was a mistake - I went with Randonee over LHT
after guy at REI bike (shop who gave me good advice in the past)
spoke against Alex rims.
BTW - another bike I was considering was Bianchi Axis - not exactly
touring bike but LBS had 2006 model (triple). But in the end I decided
to go with steel frame and touring geometry.
SMS
I'd go with the Randonee. It's 20% off for the next three days, with the
20% REI discount on one item. Another 5% back with an REI Visa card.
OTOH, the frame on the LHT is better, 4130 versus 520. The LHT is hard
to purchase around here, it has to be ordered I believe. Maybe some
store stocks it, but probably not in multiple sizes.
landotter
> On Mar 28, 2:35 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Holy crap, just googled--you're right, they're listing at $75!! An
> > Adventurer is the same weight, tough, easy to build and $25. No
> > brainer.
>
> Dunno - maybe that was a mistake - I went with Randonee over LHT
> after guy at REI bike (shop who gave me good advice in the past)
> spoke against Alex rims.
Nothing wrong with those Mavics--I just wouldn't pay retail for them
is all. The big difference between the bikes is the choice of
shifters. If you like the Randonee's more contemporary style--then you
made the right choice.
Just because somebody works in a shop does not make them credible. The
same D--- at my local looked at my newly built set of wheels yesterday
and declared the "spokes to be too tight to be acting properly like
part of the suspension." He's not the wheelbuilder...thank goodness.
datakoll
Are Alex Rims made with eyelets? no eyelets no touring.
landotter
> Are Alex Rims made with eyelets? no eyelets no touring.
If you order the Adventurer or even the cheaper DM18 from QBP in the
US--it will have eyelets. I'd have no reservations doing a heavy tour
on the cheap DM18, only thing it needs to make it a pleasant rim is a
quick emery sanding of the rim joint for smooth braking. Adventurer is
nicer looking, $5 more, and 50g less. It's also black if you're color
coordinating. DM18 is silver in 700c, black in 26".
datakoll
Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a
rectangular construction allowing rebending.
DT offers a cafe rim at $$ but not with multiple chambers and as cafe,
of narrow width.
The Rhyno is aimed at tandems so on a tourer itsa go for no hassle
riding.
After 10 years of it, I'd say any showroom stock touring bike is a
short haul touring bike.
Before you go-situps/crunchs front and side. turning knee bends.
press down exercise for the vastus medialis. chondromalacia ex for the
tibialis ligament-rope a poly water jug around the big toe, sit on
steps, rasie and lower lower leg 3-4 inches while holding upper leg
steady. do that every morning toget the old bones knee lube going.
find the bicycle strechs and do it before and after on tour.
campmor has varitec cotton/poly tee's in dayglo-in a few weeks-
outstanding touring T
landotter
> Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
> some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
> rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a
The Alex Adventurers or DM18s do not have sockets, but they are plenty
strong regardless. I would consider sockets necessary on a rim with
the "Mavic" brand. For a lighter tourer, a CR18 or Salsa Delgado, as
Hank suggested, would be a nice choice.
Tom Sherman
> [...]
> Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
I generally hear the opposite. No problems with any of the Alex rims on
my bicycles, and they typically cost half of what a Mavic rim does. I am
not paying twice as much just to get European Heritage & Mystique® in a rim.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
datakoll
seriously, perhaps yawl miss the point. Alex designers did not supply
"sockets" in the adventurer or 18. Not suppling sockets is a cost/
profit design feature not a road use consumer feature. Alex decison to
not "socket" rules out Alex' attempt to sell a cheap rim as a durable
rim.
landotter
Sockets aren't necessary when the rim is made of strong alloy and the
extrusion errs on the side of caution. A DM18 700c tips the scales at
a good 630g, while a skinnier Sun CR-18 is 500g. Who needs sockets
when you got meat? Eyelets are plenty.
Yeah, you can save 100g per wheel with socketed Mavics and pay $50
more per wheel--but what's 100g per end in the grand scheme when you
add tires? Use Paselas instead of Marathons if you want to go light.
You'll save 400g per wheel.
Alex are cheap and durable, but not the lightest, following the
conventional rules of cycling: pick two.
Hank
wrote:
Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices
landotter
The X-series are fine for re-rimming old 27" bikes for cheap. I've
done a couple. They're round and build easily. If you're doing a nice
old 27" sporting ride, go for a CR-18, but for a wide rimmed 70s 27"
bike with chrome rims, the X404 with the center ridge is perfect,
especially matched with a 1 1/4" tire. You know--for a bar bike or
neighborhood ride. It's a single wall rim is all, with single wall
weaknesses--don't be curb jumping too hard with them.
It's no single wall Araya at least--that's true fromage--I think I got
a couple of those in the garage, you can twist those into fun animal
shape with your bare hands!
datakoll
OK use washers. Runnin' on about my ERD crusade: the spoke is a
torsion bar twisting at ends. And the ends deserve correct lubrication
avoiding spoke failure (from inop stress reflief). Steel and whatever
concotion thius month bears but Al/whatever does snot.
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
off course, spending $10-20 more is a likker for yawl eatin' rice 3X
daily from paper cups-and that's what this here eyeletless outfit's
atrying to pull on yawl witless hilbillies: save money and we'll be in
St Tropez before sundown.
then there's the cosmic idea where the wheel builder goes on about
negative picamills out of perfcetion just short of reverse red shift
torque levels then grinds a thread distance or two off the ERD spoke
lengths thru whacko metalurrgy
BIZARRE
Tom Sherman
I had a bicycle with Alex X-101 rims and they held up fine for the
limited use I put them too. (The wheels were replaced for other reasons
- primarily a larger size on the front and a 3x7 hub in the rear).
Michael Press
<792eeb27-82cf-4708...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
landotter <land...@gmail.com> wrote:
And Chalo tells us that the Mavic alloy is functionally
inferior to Sun and Alex alloys, thereby eating up some
or all of the advantage of sockets.
> Alex are cheap and durable, but not the lightest, following the
> conventional rules of cycling: pick two.
--
Michael Press
Chalo
> In article
> <792eeb27-82cf-4708-8962-e467615cf...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
I have not been able to determine the alloy composition of Sun rims.
The polished models seem pretty soft, which is to say they are
probably made from a weaker alloy than 6061-T6. On the other hand
they are quite ductile compared to recent Mavics. At the same
absolute strength, a ductile rim beats a brittle one every time.
Most Mavic and Velocity rims use 6106 alloy, the weakest member of the
6000 series of aluminum alloy (but one that makes pretty extrusions).
All Alex rims I know of use 6061-T6 alloy, which is substantially
stronger.
A few Mavic rims, for instance the Open Pro, use some code-named alloy
which Mavic boasts to be "20% stronger!" or something to that effect.
To me, that means it might well be the same 6061-T6 alloy that Alex
sells for 1/4 the price.
Chalo
datakoll
I'm reasonbly pleased with Sun Rims. The Sun's hol dup well until I
run them into the watermeter hole, antique sewer grate, driveway-road
edge pothole. And true back with my modest skills.
But anything would be an improvement.
Take Wheels axles: strong don't bend easy and when the axle is bent,
the metal trues back tap tap tap in a vise perfectly no problem from
square one.
The rim iza lot ore complex than an axle but on a Wheels 100 rating
I'd give the Suns an 80-85.
Big deal is the chain. UNEEDA CHAIN GUARD to go with the Spec
thornproofs and CO2.
the Chain Guard 2$-see archives-does the job but a complete guard is
the ticket.
eyeballing the problem seems like two 5 gallon oil jugs popped togther
could cover it.
consider: howya gonna clean the chain?
Maybe a 70...
Chalo
>
> m...@privacy.net wrote:
>
> > I want to do some touring this summer.
> >
> > Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
>
> terrain, the Novara would probably be a better choice, but other than
> that, it's apples and oranges. I think the Surly's pertier. FWIW, the
> spec on the Surly is next to perfect, except for the tires--it may
> just have been the set I ran--but WTB "Slickasaurus" tires are the
> most cheesy flat-prone name brand tires I've ever run. Worth a
> consideration before taking off into the sunset for sure, but not a
> deal breaker.
I've had perfectly satisfactory service from a pair of 700x37
Slickasauri on one of my road bikes. They do not seem exceptional in
any regard, but they feel pretty fast for their size. They have
yielded no more than the expected number of flats.
I do wonder sometimes whether a design house like WTB switches
production of the same item between different suppliers. If so, that
might account for large variations in quality from batch to batch.
Chalo
datakoll
and possibly more wobbly or insensitive-vague? not vague, broadly
wooden. I gotta grind the sidepull brake mod plate to fit it.
anyone want a messenger?
one's Japanese. ones Tiwanese?
landotter
> landotter wrote:
>
> > m...@privacy.net wrote:
>
> > > I want to do some touring this summer.
>
> > > Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
>
> > Both are excellent choices. If you're going to be touring on rougher
> > terrain, the Novara would probably be a better choice, but other than
> > that, it's apples and oranges. I think the Surly's pertier. FWIW, the
> > spec on the Surly is next to perfect, except for the tires--it may
> > just have been the set I ran--but WTB "Slickasaurus" tires are the
> > most cheesy flat-prone name brand tires I've ever run. Worth a
> > consideration before taking off into the sunset for sure, but not a
> > deal breaker.
>
> I've had perfectly satisfactory service from a pair of 700x37
> Slickasauri on one of my road bikes. They do not seem exceptional in
> any regard, but they feel pretty fast for their size. They have
> yielded no more than the expected number of flats.
Mine got a good ten basic punctures in a thousand miles on good roads.
The bike with the WTBs then got sold. I haven't had a single puncture
in the 18months since. Terrible set of tires, those WTB, could have
just been a bad run, who knows? I usually go years between flats.
datakoll
WTB means what TB? terrible website, egregious website one visit and
back to Germany
Michael Press
<fa1e811d-1d34-421d...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks.
--
Michael Press
Chalo
>
> Hank wrote:
> >
> > Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
> > series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
> > market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
> > Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices
>
> The X-series are fine for re-rimming old 27" bikes for cheap. I've
> done a couple. They're round and build easily. If you're doing a nice
> old 27" sporting ride, go for a CR-18, but for a wide rimmed 70s 27"
> bike with chrome rims, the X404 with the center ridge is perfect,
> especially matched with a 1 1/4" tire. You know--for a bar bike or
> neighborhood ride. It's a single wall rim is all, with single wall
> weaknesses--don't be curb jumping too hard with them.
The single-walled Alex X101 is the only rim I have been able to find
in ISO 305 and 36 hole drilling. That configuration provides barely
enough room to turn a Park spoke wrench. Robust!
That single walled rim would probably be the strongest thing available
in the 16 inch size, were it not for the Alex DM-24 MTB rim in ISO
305. Though it is drilled for only 28 spokes, it still makes the
burliest 16 inch wheel money can buy.
Chalo
datakoll
Alex doesn't list a DM18 on that website. Alex does list a variety of
multiple chamber disc rims.
the 29er Alex weighs 620, Sun claims 420.
normally 33% more would send everyone screaming.
the Sun is for a tandem, the Alex is for a Jeep?
Tom Sherman
> landotter wrote:
>> Hank wrote:
>>> Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
>>> series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
>>> market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
>>> Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices
>> The X-series are fine for re-rimming old 27" bikes for cheap. I've
>> done a couple. They're round and build easily. If you're doing a nice
>> old 27" sporting ride, go for a CR-18, but for a wide rimmed 70s 27"
>> bike with chrome rims, the X404 with the center ridge is perfect,
>> especially matched with a 1 1/4" tire. You know--for a bar bike or
>> neighborhood ride. It's a single wall rim is all, with single wall
>> weaknesses--don't be curb jumping too hard with them.
>
> The single-walled Alex X101 is the only rim I have been able to find
> in ISO 305 and 36 hole drilling. That configuration provides barely
> enough room to turn a Park spoke wrench. Robust!
>
<http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=4949&src=froogleUS¤cy=USD>.
Not much space to turn a spoke wrench on an ISO 305-mm, 36-spoke wheel:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/2163925995/> (this is an
Alesa 219 rim) - but then there is not enough space for a suicide
squirrel either!
I do have an ISO 305-mm Alex X101 around also.
> That single walled rim would probably be the strongest thing available
> in the 16 inch size, were it not for the Alex DM-24 MTB rim in ISO
> 305. Though it is drilled for only 28 spokes, it still makes the
> burliest 16 inch wheel money can buy.
>
I have hit potholes at 70+ kph with an ISO 305-mm Alesa 219 rim and
35-305 Primo Comet tire without damage.
daveornee
Look under Cross Trekking Rims and go to the second page.
You will find DM 18 on the right end of the top row on the second
page.
Alex makes a wide variety of rims that are suitable for many different
riding applications. They seem to have more choices and more options
than any other rim manufacturer out there.
As usual, I thank Chalo for helping us discover some valuable solutions
that would otherwise be "unknown".
--
daveornee
datakoll
WELL, THAT WAS 3:44am
Yes I agree, a volume of information-maybe TWO volumes.
when I spoke with the recently deceased on rims, he advised the Rhyno
was obsolete for a single seat due to the weight over a CR-18.So
There!! nahnahnah
With Alex, we see the manufacturer selling a heavier rim without
eyelets, avoiding extra manufacturing costs. Just add washers for the
correct torsion bar effect.
local noise clams nipple gauling on the rim is positive twist control
but we rebutbutbut as the correct torsion bar end joint movement
reduces unwanted twist allowing spokes to self seat.
NOW ! to make the point, pushing it further into the nether parts, if
the weight sum for the DM18, washers 2.0 spokes, 16mm nipples,
thornproof tube, and a heavyweight trek tire are compared to a CR-18
with lightweight trek wheel components-
yawl will begin to see an affect.
then the Sun IS more ductile, easier to retrue after ramming the Primo
Comets down the water meter.
comes down to the same deal. Alex doesn't want to provide eyelets and
have a source for a cheap heavy alloy so no eyelets-anyway there's
another x grams.
Alex-makers of wheels that run like cast iron.
landotter
My meat scale scale in converted ounces says the DM18 is 650g. Uff Da!
Woof!
datakoll
and they lie!!!
daveornee
SSE = Stainless Steel Eyelets) ranged from 648 to 653 grams over 4
samples. I like the durability and price + availability: which to me
equates to value. I don't like the industrial look and finish of the
samples I received, especially how offset they were at the rim joints.
I am now building some Alex Adventurer 700C 36H Black rims. They have
a nicer finish and are smoother at the rim joint; possibly because they
have machined brake tracks.
I noticed that more mountain bicycle racing teams are being sponsored
at least partially by Alex. I hope that their distribution and
connections to the cycling world grows as I see them as a viable source
for good value product.
I would like to get my hands on some Crostini T 1.1 and T 1.2 rims with
SSE to see how they compare to Velocity Synergy and Synergy OC.
--
daveornee
landotter
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> landotter Wrote:> On Mar 30, 2:44 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Alex doesn't list a DM18 on that website. Alex does list a variety
> > of
> > > multiple chamber disc rims.
> > > the 29er Alex weighs 620, Sun claims 420.
> > > normally 33% more would send everyone screaming.
> > > the Sun is for a tandem, the Alex is for a Jeep?
>
> > My meat scale scale in converted ounces says the DM18 is 650g. Uff Da!
> > Woof!
>
> On my precision scale, the Alex DM 18 rims that I have (with optional
> SSE = Stainless Steel Eyelets) ranged from 648 to 653 grams over 4
> samples. I like the durability and price + availability: which to me
> equates to value. I don't like the industrial look and finish of the
> samples I received, especially how offset they were at the rim joints.
They aren't pretty, but once built, and the tires mounted, they look
fine and rimmy.
The rim joint on my most recent pair from QBP was slightly offset: 30s
with some emery paper and Bob's yer uncle! One was perfectly round,
the other had a slight warp needing some 1/4 turns to get true. No
biggie.
Nice to hear my meat scale is accurate!
> I am now building some Alex Adventurer 700C 36H Black rims. They have
> a nicer finish and are smoother at the rim joint; possibly because they
> have machined brake tracks.
> I noticed that more mountain bicycle racing teams are being sponsored
> at least partially by Alex. I hope that their distribution and
> connections to the cycling world grows as I see them as a viable source
> for good value product.
> I would like to get my hands on some Crostini T 1.1 and T 1.2 rims with
> SSE to see how they compare to Velocity Synergy and Synergy OC.
>
I've seen those out in the wild as OEM rims. Nice! You'll most likely
have to scour Ebay to find some still attached to a hub.
datakoll
A RARE OPPORTUNITY two honest wheel builders in the same place at...
Alex 18 are harder, less ductile than Sun Rhyno/CR
do yawl see a difference in trueing a hole bent rim-for the group 2
wheelbuilder ?????
on the race teams (to which the above question should be directed but
not answered) the upper limits of bang-bend are in racing. A NO BEND
rim is better than a lighter sometimes bend rim. AND OFF COURSE the
eyelet question is irrelevant to a racer. In fact racers using Alex
rim is irrelevant to the Trekker, is it snot?
BTW- what are messengers using? whatever they can steel ?
Chalo
>
> Alex 18 are harder, less ductile than Sun Rhyno/CR
>
> do yawl see a difference in trueing a hole bent rim-for the group 2
> wheelbuilder ?????
More metal = stiffer rim = more spoke tension change to move the rim
by X amount. But that also means it took a harder blow to bend the
rim by X amount.
In normal circumstances, spokes don't pull a rim far enough to yield
it, so ductility doesn't really come into play. The reason that
ductility is a benefit is because a ductile rim gets dinged where a
hard one may crack instead, and because a ductile rim is easier to
iron out with mallet/wrench/pliers before truing and tensioning.
The DM-18 is heavier than the CR-18, but not 200g heavier. Weight
Weenies says 460g claimed, 515g measured. That's 135g less than the
DM-18, or 270g (9.5 oz.) for a bike's worth. And it's one of those
places where the extra beef really works for you.
> BTW- what are messengers using? whatever they can steel ?
The messenger rim of first choice among my Seattle messenger friends
is the velocity Deep-V-- unless they decided on something else since I
last looked. That rim is rugged but not wide enough for good 29ing.
Weight Weenies says 520g claimed, 580g measured.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=rims
Chalo
Chalo
>
> The Alesa 219 is also available in 36-hole, ISO 305-mm size:
Good to know. I wonder if there's anywhere to get one on this
continent.
> I have hit potholes at 70+ kph with an ISO 305-mm Alesa 219 rim and
> 35-305 Primo Comet tire without damage.
At that speed, it seems to me that you'd be missing most of the depth
of the pothole. Not that I feel like trying it myself.
Chalo
datakoll
you're pulling my spokes? the sum of (which is the math reality here)
36 spokes radiating from a central pull area to the pull circle out
300mm do not pull strong enough to give a positive or negative affect
on common rim alloys? leading to the alloy as a variable in total
spoke pull?
at realities metalurgy extremes that's false, therefore your
conclusion is false as the alloy's characteristics for in this case
suitability as rim material, move more closely together.
Galleo Galleo
It's odd that riders spending time argueing 10 grams suddenly find 300
grams not worth the effort to grovel over to Weight Weenies for an
"outside opinion"
I guess if WW has reported Sun was understating the weights (not in WW
journalistic favour) yawl wudda repeated that stat?
datakoll
that's really wierd about the messengers? I'm told retrueing a bent
Aero is difficult. Whadda they do? toss 'em
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
additonally, before wego: the weight 30% differential strongly
suggests significant alloy differences are in fact significant in
reality. The formullah isnot on hand off course but just Chem/Physics
101 says ura blowing steam here
Tom Sherman
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> The Alesa 219 is also available in 36-hole, ISO 305-mm size:
>> <http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=4949&src=froogleUS&curre...>.
>
> Good to know. I wonder if there's anywhere to get one on this
> continent.
>
the two Alesa 219 rims I have.
Odd that the ISO 305-mm size is so much more expensive than the ISO
349-mm size:
<http://www.google.com/products?q=Alesa+rims&hl=en&safe=off&ei=qPvvR4O7G6jkigGzmtF6&redir_esc=www5&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf>.
datakoll
I'm back. As an example: steel rims true waaaaay easier than aluminum
rims. This is snot due to the metal's characteristics but ? tidal
effects? The Ides of March?
daveornee
the directions they feel are valuable. Relevance to a Trekker isn't
something I can easily evaluate, but I think the exposure in both
directions does some good.
I agree with Chalo's explanations on the values of heavier and stiffer
rims. I would add that Alex rims like DM 18 and Adventurer seem to last
longer when subjected to the normal abrasion from braking.
I have built with every available brand and most available models out
there. My most recent good results for over 1,000 wheels came from
Velocity USA.
I don't have good long term results with reshaping rims once they have
been plastically deformed, thus I consider ductility something of little
or no worth to me. I have used Sun CR18, Rhyno Lite, Rhyno, and other
versions of Sun rims with mixed results. Fortunately, Sun rims were
relatively inexpensive and none were DOA out of the box as I have
experienced with a few other manufacturer's products.
I have built many wheels for Chicago messengers. Velocity Deep V seems
to be the favorite, especially for single speed and/or Fixie riders.
Chicago messengers that I deal with who favor wider tires seem to be
split between Velocity Dyad or Velocity Synergy (now available with OC
for rear multispeed and/or disc applications).
--
daveornee
datakoll
as a Sun rider: what are "mixed results" ?
Is a plastically deformed rim-a state the owner/builder deals with-
more responsive to retrue with an alloy more ductile more malleable
more plastic than a harder alloy?
I undertand what Chalo is writing: metals' characteristics bring each
rim into being but are not defined without tests at limits beyond the
metals intended use.
Yet in designing an ideal wheel-to sell, continue selling, and profit
from-there is an ideal alloy.
maybe, maybe not or somewhere inbetween.
last Sun rims bought for my 29er Monodog are from Universal Cycles,
nicely packed and round round. I was relieved taht's fersure as yes MO
rims are not always.
A Muzi
Sure, generally much more flexible, hence more responsive to your
efforts. But less likely to stay straight after riding/abuse.
Some steel rims (Chicago Schwinns, Panasonic Sport) were overbuilt
behemoths which could be ridden/punished over an amazing life. Quite
hefty of course compared to aluminum rims, and dismal braking for the bonus.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
datakoll
anyone for rim science?
from the flat, 1200 rortating wheel grams up 300 grams from the
flatlanders' 900 rotating gram weight gives what grade ?
I've read this equation interms of "when do we arrive at Elysian
Fields State Park" but the source eludes.
Tom Sherman
The Earth's magnetic field affects the steel rim, but not the aluminium
alloy rim.
datakoll
recumbent
Tom Sherman
>
Inline wheelchair.
datakoll
forget gravity?
local noise sez 300 grams is a 2% grade
Tom Sherman
>
>
The secret to flying - when you fall towards the ground you must miss it!
> local noise sez 300 grams is a 2% grade
Street value?
Chalo
>
> "In normal circumstances, spokes don't pull a rim far enough to yield
> it, so ductility doesn't really come into play"
>
> you're pulling my spokes? the sum of (which is the math reality here)
> 36 spokes radiating from a central pull area to the pull circle out
> 300mm do not pull strong enough to give a positive or negative affect
> on common rim alloys? leading to the alloy as a variable in total
> spoke pull?
All that spoke tension adds up to a whole lot of hoop compression.
Aluminum alloy is pretty good at withstanding it, up to the point
where the yield point is reached and the rim buckles into a Brandt's
Potato Chip figure.
As long as the rim's section is large enough to resist Euler column
type buckling, the alloy's strength does have an effect on how much
total tension you can use. But truing a wheel does not bring a rim to
its yield stress-- there isn't any permanent deformation going on.
Any rim yielding from spoke tension (other than very locally, like
where the nipple heads bed into the spoke holes) inevitably results in
the appearance of Brandt's Potato Chip.
When you true a bent rim, you're not plastically yielding the thing
back to a round and flat shape, you're just flexing it to that shape.
If you undo the same number of turns it took to true the wheel, it
will relax back to its bent shape.
Chalo
m...@privacy.net
>I know exactly what you mean - I never toured on the bike but
>I do some kayaking and that moment when you push this thing on
>the water and it starts bouncing on the waves and you KNOW that
>for next 8 hours it will be just you water and wind is the best.
>One of these days I would like to ride across Texas. And really
>SEE the land.
Sounds very cool!!
I don't know..... I think people spend SO MUCH time
inside now days that something inside of you dies... or
cries out for nourishment!!
At least I know that's how I've felt lately. I just
cant handle any more "technology"..... and just have a
need for some time away from all of it
m...@privacy.net
>I eventually went with Randonee for two reasons - all things being
>about the same on both bikes Randonee had much better wheel and I
>wanted durable bike. Plus I know everybody in the bike shop at local
>REI and those guys are fantastic when it comes to service and repairs.
How you liking hat Novara Randonee so far?
I bought one over the weekend..... 55 cm model....
haven't put any miles on it yet. I can return it if I
don't like it, right?
m...@privacy.net
>I'd go with the Randonee. It's 20% off for the next three days, with the
>20% REI discount on one item. Another 5% back with an REI Visa card.
Well I bought the Randonee..... not sure I'm gonna keep
it tho. have 30 days to decide, right?
>OTOH, the frame on the LHT is better, 4130 versus 520. The LHT is hard
>to purchase around here, it has to be ordered I believe. Maybe some
>store stocks it, but probably not in multiple sizes.
Yeah the LHT Trucker IS hard to find!!! I couldn't
even find one to set on and make sure the size was
right. So that's why I went with the Novara Randonee
landotter
See if you get along with the shifting system, that's the major
difference, really. You might just love it, or your inner techno
grouch might long for the simplicity of the LHT's bar-ends. Once you
know how the Randonee fits--if you want to switch to a different bike--
it's pretty easy to look at the specs and find your size. For example,
the 55cm Randonee and 56cm LHT have top tubes that are within a couple
mms of each other. Hopefully the Randonee will work out for you.
datakoll
mount decent kevlar/aramid belt tires, Specialized thornproof tubes
with a CO2 threaded and unthreaded inflator
landotter
> On Mar 27, 10:30 am, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>
> > I want to do some touring this summer.
>
> > Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
>
> I was facing similar choice - wanted a touring bike and
> at the end had to decide betw Surly LHT and Novarra Randonee.
> For me Novarra Safari was out of a question - I wanted something
> that would look like road bike. PLus I had Novarra Viaggio - I guess
> you can call it earlier version of Safari and I was VERY unhappy
> with that B-shaped handlebar.
> I eventually went with Randonee for two reasons - all things being
That's not true. The Randonee has a perfectly good wheel with Tiagra
hubs, Mavic rims, and generic SS spokes. The LHT has even better XT
hubs, DT spokes, and Adventurer rims. Both are good wheels, but at the
end of the day--I'd say the LHTs are higher pedigree.
m...@privacy.net
>See if you get along with the shifting system, that's the major
>difference, really. You might just love it, or your inner techno
>grouch might long for the simplicity of the LHT's bar-ends. Once you
>know how the Randonee fits--if you want to switch to a different bike--
>it's pretty easy to look at the specs and find your size. For example,
>the 55cm Randonee and 56cm LHT have top tubes that are within a couple
>mms of each other. Hopefully the Randonee will work out for you.
OK thanks
The Luddite in me does wonder if the combo shifter and
brake levers of the Novara Randonee make sense
I will give it a week or so before deciding whether to
keep it
m...@privacy.net
>
>
>mount decent kevlar/aramid belt tires, Specialized thornproof tubes
>with a CO2 threaded and unthreaded inflator
Mount on what?
Who are you talking to?
datakoll
well, ya gotta get ridda the generic spokes too. nooooooo touring on
generic spokes.
less ya wanna spend the sumer in Demoine learnin taxidermee
datakoll
EVER WONDER WHY your supplier has a bad attitude?
datakoll
WHERE'S FRANK?
YO FRANK HOW'S THE BIKE ????
Tom Sherman
> datakoll <data...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> mount decent kevlar/aramid belt tires, Specialized thornproof tubes
>> with a CO2 threaded and unthreaded inflator
>
> Mount on what?
>
> Who are you talking to?
Hominids.
Tom Sherman
I thought that was in West Grain Elevator?
Tom Sherman
>
REI = Return Every Item?
Tom Sherman
> WHERE'S FRANK?
>
With the beans, presumably.
Hank
And at the end of the day, most tourists would prefer the LHT's wheels
just for the reduced dish offered by the 135mm spacing, vs. 130 on the
Randonee.
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
The radonee frame: does it take a shimano deore rear hub at 135mm?
that's a UCJ standard right?
or WalThink spreading?
landotter
> And at the end of the day, most tourists would prefer the LHT's wheels
> just for the reduced dish offered by the 135mm spacing, vs. 130 on the
> Randonee.
Indeed. I find it strange that the Randonee specs a road rear hub,
when 135mm is pretty much standard for touring/trekking these days. I
didn't see it clearly specced on the site so didn't mention it, though
I was pretty sure it was 130.
I do see a benefit to this, though. A lot of people walk into an REI
and say: "gimme a bike to do everything", and the Randonee is a great
answer to this. Under a grand, and upon casual inspection it has the
same gee-whiz shifters that the racy bikes have. If the owner wants to
buy a pair of super-light weekend century wheels--they'll fit the
spacing just fine. If somebody wants a true expedition quality bike,
the REI people can point towards the Novara Safari.
Werehatrack
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> may have said:
>datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>> On Mar 31, 3:21 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>>> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> mount decent kevlar/aramid belt tires, Specialized thornproof tubes
>>>> with a CO2 threaded and unthreaded inflator
>>> Mount on what?
>>>
>>> Who are you talking to?
>>
>> well, ya gotta get ridda the generic spokes too. nooooooo touring on
>> generic spokes.
>> less ya wanna spend the sumer in Demoine learnin taxidermee
>
>I thought that was in West Grain Elevator?
In West Grain Elevator you get tutelage in Corn Shuck Macrame.
Taxidermy is the favorite in Des Moines, particularly during tourist
season along I-70.
--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
Werehatrack
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> may have said:
>datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>>
>> EVER WONDER WHY your supplier has a bad attitude?
>>
>> "Well I bought the Randonee..... not sure I'm gonna keep
>> it tho. have 30 days to decide, right? "
>
>REI = Return Every Item?
That's why they have garage sales.
(At REI garage sales, I've seen some impressive demonstrations of the
observation that nothing is idiot-proof.)
datakoll
Novarra Safari covers a lota ground for $900.
I swear this morning the stats were deore and this afternoon tiagra/
sram.
both Rad and Saf need Spec tubes and a hacksaw for cutting that rack
loop off.
sand and paint 1/2 A/B plywood to fit past the rear tire and up to
under the seat. bolt down with 8/10's and steel straps drilled either
side to snug up on the rack tubes.
A touring rack should carry a 24" duffle then extend far enough to
rear so the bike can strand up against a wall on rack's rear lip.
cut, thread, file a steel seat post nut and a seat stop bolt into
the post saddle.
The Safari with deore hubs iza good deal-not too much cheating the
customer for the whole package. an honest bicycle. shows what compared
to the Radonee what the pay is for chrome moly welding v. Aluminum
the Surly v Radonee not v. Safari is an easy choice. The LHT iza
grade up and $5-600 up with the basic mechanicals/tires/racks.
go cheap but complete or go $600 more and go fast and bulletproof
Hank
And it wouldn't surprise me if the frame is spaced at 132.5, like many
in-betweenish frames are (Surly Cross-check, Nashbar Touring) and I
think that's a great idea - not even really a compromise.. But out of
the box, the Randonee's rear wheel is weaker than the LHT's, by virtue
of its greater dish.
landotter
A quick google seems to indicate that it's indeed a 130mm and that's
been a PITA for people looking to buy off the shelf replacement
wheels.
Well, I guess that gives the OP an excuse to return it--how *dare* REI
spec such hubs on a *touring* bike.
<shakes fist>
However, for anything short of heavy touring, and with the wheel
dialed in, I doubt it will be unreliable.
Tom Sherman
> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:57:20 -0500, Tom Sherman
> <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> may have said:
>
>> datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>>> On Mar 31, 3:21 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>>>> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> mount decent kevlar/aramid belt tires, Specialized thornproof tubes
>>>>> with a CO2 threaded and unthreaded inflator
>>>> Mount on what?
>>>>
>>>> Who are you talking to?
>>> well, ya gotta get ridda the generic spokes too. nooooooo touring on
>>> generic spokes.
>>> less ya wanna spend the sumer in Demoine learnin taxidermee
>> I thought that was in West Grain Elevator?
>
> In West Grain Elevator you get tutelage in Corn Shuck Macrame.
> Taxidermy is the favorite in Des Moines, particularly during tourist
> season along I-70.
>
State of Misery, er Missouri.
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
THE RAD COSTS $900 with a steel frame spreadable to 135mm, that's the $
$$ mix. The safari has all the goodies with an aluminum frame welded
by a monkey butbutbut "this morning the Safari had deore deore deore"
then this afternoon the safari was tiagra/sram.
The buyer M said he bought generic spokes on the weaker wheel.
so keep your eyes open and deal for the deore.
Chalire Chan loads boat no?
Werehatrack
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> may have said:
>Werehatrack wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:57:20 -0500, Tom Sherman
>> <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> may have said:
>>
>>> datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>>>> On Mar 31, 3:21 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>>>>> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> mount decent kevlar/aramid belt tires, Specialized thornproof tubes
>>>>>> with a CO2 threaded and unthreaded inflator
>>>>> Mount on what?
>>>>>
>>>>> Who are you talking to?
>>>> well, ya gotta get ridda the generic spokes too. nooooooo touring on
>>>> generic spokes.
>>>> less ya wanna spend the sumer in Demoine learnin taxidermee
>>> I thought that was in West Grain Elevator?
>>
>> In West Grain Elevator you get tutelage in Corn Shuck Macrame.
>> Taxidermy is the favorite in Des Moines, particularly during tourist
>> season along I-70.
>>
>I-80 traverses Iowa east-west. I-70 at similar longitudes is in the
>State of Misery, er Missouri.
Yup, you're right. I guess that possum skinning would be the hobby of
choice along 70. Further south, along I-20, it's Architectural Use Of
Freeway Armadilloes.
m...@privacy.net
>Well, I guess that gives the OP an excuse to return it--how *dare* REI
>spec such hubs on a *touring* bike.
So the Randonee has a road hub on it?
landotter
Yeah, which is no major scandal. It means that it's 5mm narrower than
mtb/touring hubs which are fairly standard these days on touring
bikes, and that it'll be dished slightly more and thus slightly
weaker. All that said, if the wheel is dialed, and you're not hauling
expedition level loads, and otherwise enjoy the bike--don't fret about
it.
The upside to having road spacing is that you can buy some off the
shelf "fast" wheels, like some Ultegra/OPs, mount up some 28mm tires
and a close ratio cassette--and the Randonee becomes a little more
sporting for weekend fun rides--all with a quick wheel change.
Woland99
> Woland99 <wolan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I eventually went with Randonee for two reasons - all things being
> >wanted durable bike. Plus I know everybody in the bike shop at local
> >REI and those guys are fantastic when it comes to service and repairs.
>
> How you liking hat Novara Randonee so far?
>
> I bought one over the weekend..... 55 cm model....
> haven't put any miles on it yet. I can return it if I
> don't like it, right?
Yeah - you can ALWAYS return things to REI - as long as it is within
some reasonable time - ie. not couple of years. Altho that is just
if you do not want them to look at you funny. Their policy has no
limitats - I once returned a kayak that I had for over 5 years.
They looked at me funny but I did not care.
I presume you took advantage of 20% off - so now you can ride it
for a few week and test ride LHT too.
I like my Randonee a lot and ride it every chance I have but I
must confess - I was not looking for a hardcore touring bike when
I bought it - rather I wanted a steel frame, road-like bike that
could carry my weight. SO I was looking at touring and cyclocross
bikes. Randonee seemed like a good choice - decent components, price
and good REI service and satisfaction guarantee.
I presume that some of the critique (130 vs 135) discussed here is
applicable - I was not aware of that issue. I have 57cm Randonee
which fits me perfectly and I use it now as a stepping stone toward
real roadbike (losing weight etc) - after I get one I wlll be very
likely still using Randonee as a backup/commuting bike.
datakoll
'a real road bike' ?
Woland99
> 'a real road bike' ?
The machine of a dream. Such a clean machine.
Different tires. Different wheels. Different gearing.
I love Randonee but it is not exactly the speed demon.
But I weight too much now for skinny tires and skinny
rims - I posted a thread before asking for max load
and then decided that perhaps Randonee is a good
intermediate step. O/w I would have probably bought
2003 Lemons Alpe d'Huez that LBS had.
datakoll
my bike cost $50. I got it caws the shop knew I 'd take care of it.
You prob don't know how to so it's better ruining a Radonee before
tackling a finely tuned sports machione like a LeMond. The Rad will
give better service while learning.