overview of braking systems and culture

[AMuzi]

https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Lou Holtman]

There is a lot of truth in that article.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake


That’s an opinion piece dressed as fact, and essentially click bate.

road disks appeared before uci legal it largely was consumer led, be that
the commuters who wanted a fast road bike that didn’t need counties to stop
on wet grimy days, and so on.

Was plenty of roadies who wanted disks and has been for decades if folks
listened. As ever depends on the circles folks move in, but certainly the
roadies I know have wanted disks as for number of different reasons.

If anything I’m unconvinced that for most road races that disks
advantages/disadvantages particularly noting the slower wheel changes.

Over cobbles and white gravel roads yes clearly.

I guess that though could get 28/30mm rim bikes the braking at least for
the Pros might not be as good ie long flexing dual pivots?

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On 10/23/2023 10:53 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:31:25 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
>
>

> There is a lot of truth in that article.
>
> Lou

Agreed. Disc brakes do some things better for some riders in
some conditions. That's not a universal endorsement.

[Tom Kunich]

I used discs and never liked them. The very last thing in the world that road bikes needed was "power brakes".

[AMuzi]

Yes, it's opinion.

OTOH Here's the 1966 Paris Roubaix during which no one died
from lack of braking power:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/parisrou.jpg

Mostly Mafac Racer (this is pre-Record, pre-Mafac Comp).

Also note back in the dark ages people actually dressed like
adults when out in public.

[Tom Kunich]

Oh come on Roger, there was a reason to use discs on MTB's, but the only reason for using them on road bikes was to sell roadies superlight and very expensive carbon wheels. If you wish to believe marketing go right ahead.

[Joerg]

On 10/23/23 8:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
>

Quote "... you’d just assume that cyclists were fed up with rim brakes’
poor braking power and demanded something better. This isn’t the case; ..."

That's where I stopped reading.

After my first bike with disc brakes I never looked back. They have
saved the day more than once, especially in the rain.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Roger Merriman]

Lots of folks have over the years noted the performance differences, long
before the first road bikes with disks, everything from commuters who would
like better wet braking performance, to roadies into the soggy hills.

The market for a bike with wide road tires plus disk brakes has been
clearly there for decades, over the years various club mates or other
roadies have essentially said I’d like a bike with disks, why can’t they
move the technology over.

The pros are very traditional and conservative but amateurs generally are
not could see this as disks became more common, folks who raced or aspired
tended to rims folks even club cyclists with less performance or at least
racing focus had disks.

The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
> roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
> years ago.

Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.

I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.

- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
probably age as well.

But signs have been there for a while such as since the turn of century
maybe earlier some CX bikes with a more general use than pure racing, such
as the Tricross ie for dirt and pavement ie gravel bikes of sorts.

And just folks chatting at the cafe stop essentially why on earth don’t
road bikes have disks?

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

My experience as well.
For example Record (& copies) brakes are beautiful, well
made, with a stiff solid feel and very effective. From the
1970s through the end of the century, competitive riders
often chose a simpler cheaper caliper (Weinmann 500 etc)
which were adequate and quite a bit lighter weight.

Offroad of course entails a different set of problems and
values.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm certainly not arguing that the disc brakes are stronger than rim brakes. I'm saying that if you can lock the wheels with either brake that is all that is necessary. Disc's work better in the rain? They also stop the wheels turning and you slide until you fall. Yes, you can do this with rim brakes but it is more difficult.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>
> >> The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
> >> roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
> >> years ago.
> >
> > Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
> > bike manufacturers to use road disks.
> >
> > I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
> > 1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
> > some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
> > wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
> > brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
> > fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
> probably age as well.

The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.

Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"

- Frank Krygowski

[Mark Cleary]

I like my road bike with disk brakes and it took bit to get used to the concept. But if the truth be known at my age and what I do, rim brakes. tubes in the tires, and 11 speeds are more than enough.
Deacon mark

[John B.]

I think that the most important factor in brake systems is, "Are you
satisfied?"

I've been riding with rim brakes ever since I graduated from the
"coaster brakes" of my youth and they suit me. Of course, I try not to
ride in heavy rains but I did test a bike with "V" Brakes in the wet
and they would stop either, or both, wheel from turning at about 25
mph (I was afraid to try them any faster) and my conventional rim
brakes will stop fast enough at, probably 15 mph, to lift the rear
wheel off the ground.

But I did grow up in a small country town and spent my younger days
running around in the woods playing "Cowboys and Indians" so I have
little inclination to ride a bicycle out in the wilderness now that
I'm grown.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Indeed in most it was they rode a MTB even if just casually, or watched
others and thought I’d like that please!

My wife did that few years ago watching me and others able to comfortably
stop in filthy conditions, and asked for disk please as she wanted easy
stress freed braking ie for it to just work.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more
and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.

[Roger Merriman]

Oldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I’d assume that rims will remain
common for a while yet!

And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Painful as it is I have to agree with Frank. No one was asking for better brakes than the better rim brakes.

[Tom Kunich]

Are you implying that if you had disc brakes that same descent would have been fun?

[Lou Holtman]

Less miserable. Braking would not be a part of the miserable equation and afterwards I would not have to dig out the aluminum particles out of the brake pads and align my pads again in a not well lit basement of the apartment building.

Lou

[Tanguy Ortolo]

AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
> https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake

The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?

With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly
maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not
sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I
should try to make sure. ;-)

Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it
should be harder to stop the rotation.

Cheers,

--
Tanguy

[Frank Krygowski]

Yet you did it and did it safely enough.

One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You NEED road disk brakes"??

The answer is: Marketing.

- Frank krygowski

[AMuzi]

For a reasonable human hand range of motion at a reasonable
pressure, the smaller travel of disc pads allows greater
pressure on the disc, cable or hydraulic. You're right that
a rim, AEBE is a more efficient radius for braking but the
other factors offset that advantage.

Also, stainless discs can function well at extremely high
temperatures. The total BTUs to be dissipated are the same
but rims/tires/pads can suffer problems at extreme brake
loads which are well inside a disc system's useful range.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.

What allows disk brakes to be more powerful? It's a little complicated, but I'd say
the key fact is that the rotor always stays almost perfectly flat. Here's why:

Force at the pads (disk or caliper) is a simple multiple of hand force on the lever.
Whether hydraulic or mechanical, that multiple is inversely proportional to the
ratio of the relevant distances. That is, if you want pad force to be four times hand
force, you have to put up with only one fourth as much pad motion. Want eight times
as much force? Then you can have only 1/8 as much motion.

Rim brakes have a practical lower limit to their motion, because rims tend to be
at least a little out of true from time to time. The pads have to spread enough to
not scrape. But brake disks are less likely to be out of true. You can have far less
pad travel with disks, so far more force multiplication.

Some of that advantage gets eaten up because the disk radius is far less than wheel
radius, but it usually still works out to less hand force for a given deceleration. And
the greater pad force on the disk (compared to the rim) means if moisture does
hit the disk, it's easily squeezed away.

Still, almost no road riders really need less hand force than what's available using
good quality rim brakes. The push (mostly by Shimano) for easier stopping is yet another
example of the bike industry chasing diminishing returns.

- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.

No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Shimano where late as ever to the road disk brake game, they tend to the
more conventional side compared to SRAM who are early adopters be that
disks or 1by and so on.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 09:18:54 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:

What you need is mostly a subjective evaluation.

>The answer is: Marketing.

More likely, people simply deciding for themselves what they want.

>- Frank krygowski

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:

I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.

Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?

Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:48:01 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:12:03?AM UTC-4, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
>>> AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
>>>> https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
>>>>
>>>
>>> The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
>>> make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?
>>>
>>> With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly
>>> maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not
>>> sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I
>>> should try to make sure. ;-)
>>>
>>> Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
>>> Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it
>>> should be harder to stop the rotation.
>>
>> I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
>> their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
>> one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
>> you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.
>>

Nope, I did it, once. Riding on the tops, hands on the brakes, maybe
10- 12 mph in dense traffic and someone flagged a taxi and he stopped,
maybe 10 feet in front of me. I grabbed the brakes and I certainly
felt the rear wheel lift. My reaction was to release the brakes and I
hit the taxi. My front tire and his rear bumper.

I suggest that your Gee forces are suspect as in reality the G force
would be dependent on the road surface, the brakes, and the amount of
rubber on the road. Try braking on ice versus braking on clean, dry,
asphalt (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some

I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

By "locking the front wheel" I mean zero rotation of the wheel (while
the bike moves forward). That's certainly what the term means for cars.
It would involve skidding the wheel. On a dry road surface that's not
possible without going over the bars.

> I suggest that your Gee forces are suspect as in reality the G force
> would be dependent on the road surface, the brakes, and the amount of
> rubber on the road. Try braking on ice versus braking on clean, dry,
> asphalt (:-)

I was talking about normal road riding on dry roads. You're correct that
someone can lock their front wheel on ice, wet leaves this time of year,
wet steel manhole covers, mud, etc. But if you do that, a crash is the
normal result.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

No, there are very significant benefits of dual brakes and multiple
gears over coaster brake single speed bikes, at least for the most
common types of riding. (Cruiser bikes still have their place for very
limited use.)

But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past
100 years. Nothing has changed that.

>
> Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
> KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?

Name calling, shouting and misspelling. Such a class act!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 23:01:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
>But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
>significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past
>100 years. Nothing has changed that.

.....at least in your opinion.

[Roger Merriman]

Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
a car park type of thing?

>> Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
>> KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
>
> Name calling, shouting and misspelling. Such a class act!
>

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better
bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly
at that price point!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> Oldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain

>>> common for a while yet!
>>>
>>> And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
>>> cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
>> The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
>> must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
>
>Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
>shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better
>bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly
>at that price point!
>
>Roger Merriman

My Avid BB7s are highly rated.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:28:00 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I can most definately lock up the brakes on my Catrike.

CAUTION: The brakes on your Catrike are very powerful. It is quite
possible to do a
“stoppie” on the Catrike (lock the front wheels and lift the rear
wheel off the ground by
jamming on the brakes). In extreme cases, you can hit the chain rings
on the ground and
damage them. Use common sense. Don't use maximum braking unless you
really need to. (At
high enough speeds, the trike won't lift the rear wheel…it will just
skid. And at very low speeds,
there isn't enough momentum to hit the chain rings on the ground.

https://bicycleman.com/wp-content/uploads/Catrike-Owners-Manual-2019.pdf

[Roger Merriman]

Where back in the day, trikes and similar seem to be the last bastion of
cable disks for what ever reason.

Paul components get lots of rave reviews though this is from the
hipster/retro grouch lot so I’d question their reliability!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:44:55 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

I got over 34000 miles on my original avid BB7 MTN calipers and
they're still fully functional. I only changed them out for the road
BB7s because of my short pull brake levers.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:07:29 -0400, Catrike Rider

I should point out that the reason for them being used on Catrikes is
because Catrikes and similar don't have forks.

[Tanguy Ortolo]

Frank Krygowski, 2023-10-24 18:33+0200:

> I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
> their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
> one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
> you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.

This is what I meant. To me, locking the front wheel means going over
the handlebar. :-)

--
Tanguy

[AMuzi]

Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake
header crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front
wheel contact, the force needed can be small (short bike,
low bars with long stem) or large (Cat Tricycle).

Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire
slip isn't going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.

[AMuzi]

They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.

OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.

[Roger Merriman]

Absolutely, even moving one’s weight about, my gravel bike wears though
it’s disk pads at a 3 to 1 ratio vs the MTB that is near enough 1-1 and the
MTB has more space to allow the rear to dig in.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

I’d assume they still use one of 3 standard out there though ie
Post/IS/Flat mounts, than lack of forks.

The choice of cable disk is likely down to it’s expected use, ie it’s
expected to be used like you use it, so unlikely to need more power, and
cables are more tolerant of folding.

Adaptive MTB such as Bowhead, use hydraulic and often seriously powerful
callipers with huge rotors!

https://youtu.be/Kqx8jnp7YHw?si=DCS9d1aPf1zo5hU2

By some margin more expensive and capable, is a hand cycle version as well
I’m told. Note the ability to lean though things, makes for a very capable
machine, granted Martyn is hugely skilled rider.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Again, I find myself agreeing with Krygowski, that you can lock a rim brake isn't an opinion but outright fact. Even with 3 inch wide knobbies, I could EASILY lock the front wheel with V-brakes and there's no question that I can RIGHT NOW lock the front wheel and rear wheel at the same time with rim brakes if I didn't know how to use rim brakes.

That rim brakes have been around for 100 years before someone decided that they didn't work and installed disc's simply shows that they are nothing more than marketing. As I said before, the ONLY reason that disc brakes came out is because you can't make thin expensive carbon wheels stand rim brakes and manufacturers stopped believing in "lighter is better" years ago now. Plus it has finally broken through to them that aerodynamics is preposterous for 99% of the riders in the world who can only go over 40 kph downhill.

Most of the "modern" cycling craze is entirely marketing. Although electric shifting certainly is better it is totally over-priced. It will be a very cold day in hell when I pay $2,000 for a performance bike, let alone $10,000. Because of the way I ride with a lot of hills, I don't much care for Frank's choice in bikes and components. But that works for him.

[Tom Kunich]

I have ridden disc performance road bikes for thousands of miles, I have also used them off-road one CX and MTB's. I didn't like them then and I don't like them now.

[Tom Kunich]

Presently on my gravel bike, I have cable actuated hydraulic disc brakes. They add nothing to the bike.

[Tom Kunich]

Which I've done. But most of the time, it means sliding on surfaces with poor traction from rain or ice.,

[AMuzi]

3 inch tires usually have discs and four inch+ always do.

[Lou Holtman]

We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in that direction.

Lou

[Radey Shouman]

I think that was the basis of Mr. Krygowski's calculation. There are
two torques about the front wheel contact patch that must sum to zero if
the attitude of the bike is not changing:

m*a*h + m*g*l = 0

m is mass, a is acceleration (negative in case of braking), g is the
acceleration due to gravity, h is the vertical distance between the
front wheel contact patch and the system center of gravity, l is the
horizontal distance. I assume he used some eyeballed or recalled set of
distances to come up with his figure of 0.7, but of course these vary
with the system. The rider has some control as well, by moving his
center of gravity rearwards and down.

--

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:42:52 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>>> hipster/retro grouch lot so I?d question their reliability!

>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>>> I got over 34000 miles on my original avid BB7 MTN calipers and
>>> they're still fully functional. I only changed them out for the road
>>> BB7s because of my short pull brake levers.
>>
>> I should point out that the reason for them being used on Catrikes is
>> because Catrikes and similar don't have forks.
>>
>I’d assume they still use one of 3 standard out there though ie
>Post/IS/Flat mounts, than lack of forks.
>
> The choice of cable disk is likely down to it’s expected use, ie it’s
>expected to be used like you use it, so unlikely to need more power, and
>cables are more tolerant of folding.
>
>Adaptive MTB such as Bowhead, use hydraulic and often seriously powerful
>callipers with huge rotors!
>
>https://youtu.be/Kqx8jnp7YHw?si=DCS9d1aPf1zo5hU2
>
>By some margin more expensive and capable, is a hand cycle version as well
>I’m told. Note the ability to lean though things, makes for a very capable
>machine, granted Martyn is hugely skilled rider.
>
>Roger Merriman
>

I've seen attempts at building a leaning pedal powered trike, but the
trikes are already so much heavier than diamond frames that the added
parts just makes them too heavy.

[AMuzi]

+1 my evaluation as well.
(moreso for 'suspension' wheelchairs)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
>> significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past
>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
>>
>>>
> Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
> a car park type of thing?

I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.

But what would a longer test ride tell me? I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.

I admit that former r.b.tech poster Jay Beattie got good benefit from
road disk brakes. That's because he commuted to work essentially every
day on the hilly side of rainy Portland Oregon. But he's very atypical.

How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-road
problems did you experience?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>>
>> They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
>> you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
>> braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
>>
>> OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
>> various true things with more or less importance. This is in
>> the realm of taste not physics.

Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's "taste" is heavily
influenced by marketing. (If that weren't true, marketing would not
exist.) And the marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of _course_ you want
disk brakes..." with no discussion at all of advantages vs.
disadvantages, except in occasional online articles.

> We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in that direction.

That paragraph was much more rational than most discussion of brakes.
Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked the feel." He's allowed to like the
feel, of course, but it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical
decision. Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his friend
had not considered, and showed a possible alternative.

Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of reaching a
decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I used memory of past calculations. I actually assigned this as a class
problem, using fairly detailed measurements.

BTW, height of the center of mass of bike+rider is important in the
calculation. So, how would you determine that? It was another class
problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:52:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>> They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
>>> you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
>>> braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
>>>
>>> OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
>>> various true things with more or less importance. This is in
>>> the realm of taste not physics.
>
>Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's "taste" is heavily
>influenced by marketing. (If that weren't true, marketing would not
>exist.) And the marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
>marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of _course_ you want
>disk brakes..." with no discussion at all of advantages vs.
>disadvantages, except in occasional online articles.

Many people are simply capable of seeing the marketing of a new or
improved product, checking out it's features and determining whether
or not they want to buy it.

>> We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in that direction.
>
>That paragraph was much more rational than most discussion of brakes.
>Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked the feel." He's allowed to like the
>feel, of course, but it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical
>decision.

For many, it's not really a technical decision. Many people simply
just like the product, for whatever reason, and think it's worth
trying.

> Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his friend
>had not considered, and showed a possible alternative.
>
>Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of reaching a
>decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"

Or maybe, "that looks interesting, and since I'm not concerned about
not being trendy, I'll give it a try." That's basically why I tried
out a Catrike. That was in 2009, the rest is history.

[AMuzi]

Now that's interesting!

And dynamic; we all change our position/height/weight over
front wheel etc, and even stand to climb. Constant change is
more usual than a time trialist's well practiced fixed posture.

There are many search hits but I didn't find much for actual
results. I think this simple diagram of 'center of
length/center of height' is irrelevant for example:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dimensions-of-the-bicycle-including-center-of-mass_fig1_330392063

I thought this elegant:
https://ucscphysicsdemo.sites.ucsc.edu/physics-5a6a/finding-the-center-of-mass-for-irregularly-shaped-objects/

but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be
approximate and conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'

[AMuzi]

The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.

That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom dispositive.

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
>>> significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past
>>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
>>>
>>>>
>> Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
>> a car park type of thing?
>
> I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
> probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
> have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
> knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
> because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
> ability.
>
> But what would a longer test ride tell me?

Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.

I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride
them, and my MTB friends have them. Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used
hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had
upgrades or part swapped.

Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.

this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about technology
and how it works…

> I already know lever force is
> lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
> 1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
> around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
> squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
> bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
> the other bikes either, including the tandem.


>
> I admit that former r.b.tech poster Jay Beattie got good benefit from
> road disk brakes. That's because he commuted to work essentially every
> day on the hilly side of rainy Portland Oregon. But he's very atypical.
>

Sounds quite typical really for many a European city ie soggy and very few
are pan flat, of the cycling cities only Cambridge in the uk is that, rest
have hills.

> How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-road
> problems did you experience?
>

I guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been
mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.

In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes,
certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in
terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentially what a
more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thus easier
to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having to grip a
lever.

As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on
different bikes, probably down to levers.

The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even on road. The
single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.

All of them where to differing degrees woeful, in the rain less so on a
ride compared to commuting/utility riding mainly that you could predict
braking, where as urban riding do occasionally need to brake hard, the CX
was almost certainly had the least powerful brakes but did at least have
much greater grip margins ie 35mm tires vs 23/25mm so less skittish in the
rain.

And let’s not forget cables don’t last and need replacement, pads need
adjustment as they wear and depending on if you have a cartridge or not
readjusting new pads.

Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into the working, they
are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember last time any of
mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!

That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice always note but for
most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side effects ie larger
tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though the longer reach
dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots sized for that.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:06:52 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about technology
>and how it works…

I'm very interested in new technology, and I often evaluate whether or
not it's something I can use. Playing a game of advantages vs.
disadvantages. is something I don't have time for.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:27:31 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2, AMuzi

Having new products presented to me is nice, telling me that it's
something I need, or worse, something that I deserve, is a turn off.

Generally, I go with gut feeling as to whether or not I look into an
advertised product. Evaluating advantages vs disadvantages is like
herding cats.

[Frank Krygowski]

I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim that
because I don't own a 15 pound bike, I can't possibly comment on things
like his insane top speed claims.

Engineers have to be able to assess equipment without getting years of
experience with it. They do that by knowledge of physics. One relevant
bit of physics is that a standard bike's deceleration is limited by risk
of pitchover; and that limit can easily be reached with most standard
caliper brakes. You don't need disks for that.

> this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about
technology
> and how it works…

Of course! But I do know how disk brakes work. I don't have to own them
to know that.

>
>> I already know lever force is
>> lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
>> 1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
>> around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
>> squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
>> bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
>> the other bikes either, including the tandem.
>

>> How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-road
>> problems did you experience?
>>
> I guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been
> mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.
>
> In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes,
> certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in
> terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentially
what a
> more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thus
easier
> to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having to
grip a
> lever.
>
> As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on
> different bikes, probably down to levers.
>
> The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even on
road. The
> single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.
>

> All of them where to differing degrees woeful...

You're using words like "outclassed" or "woeful" but you're not
describing actual _problems_ caused by rim brakes.

You seem to like the lower hand force typical of disks. Fine, I guess,
if that's your preference. But squeezing with 5 pounds force instead of
3 pounds force is not an actual problem for normal people.

Did you ever have a crash or even a near miss because your rim brakes
wouldn't stop the bike?

Personally, I had one real problem on exactly one occasion. My wife and
I were riding in very heavy pouring rain, on the first cheap ten speeds
we bought in 1973 or so. They had very flexible "Balilla" center pull
brakes, and chrome steel rims pockmarked with hundreds of dimples that I
later realized acted as reservoirs of water. We tried braking for a turn
and had almost zero braking power. But buying a pretty nice Raleigh with
smooth aluminum rims fixed that problem acceptably. It's never occurred
again, despite thousands of miles of rain riding. (I don't like it, but
I do ride in rain from time to time.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview

"The global advertising industry expects to continue its expansion,
albeit at different speeds depending on the medium and the country. A
late 2022 projection estimated that ad media owners' revenue worldwide
would grow by about six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S.
dollars in 2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "

ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of billions of
dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed most of my
notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we calculated the location
for a normal riding position and for a position with the rider's butt
scooted back as far as possible.

No other takers on how to determine center of mass height? Come on, guys!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

If I were to buy a new bicycle I'd like one with wide tires, drop handlebar and if possible hydraulic disk brakes. With disk brakes I could have black rims and hubs which wouldn't be as visible when I'm camping in the woods. Plus I wouldn't have to worry about my brake pads getting grit in them and then grinding against my rims. Also, I wouldn't have any problem with forward mounted rear panniers hitting the brake calipers. Lastly I'd have much better stopping in snow and slush.
I switched from cantilever brakes to V-brakes on my winter bike because V-brake are far superior in stopping my bike that the properly set up and adjust cantilever brakes ever were.

Cheers

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:05:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski

This discussion seems to be another of the "I prefer it" vs "but you
don't need it," arguments that go round and round in this forum.

That type of argument does not have any possible logical conclusions
because the "don't need it," argument doesn't necessarily contradict
the "prefer" statement.

It seems to me that the " you don't need it," arguer is simply upset
that the "I prefer it" person doesn't agree with his preferences.


"....people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble
handling anything they view as criticism. They can:

Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special recognition
or treatment.

Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted.

React with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to
make themselves appear superior.

Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior.

Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change.

Withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail.

Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection.

Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of
being
exposed as a failure.


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

[Roger Merriman]

That’s a woefully simplistic model and thus wrong mainly due to its huge
simplification. To reach parity a rim brake needs the speed to be be lower
so less force, and for it to be dry and generally it to be a clean simple
model not the dirty real world, let alone that disks modulation allow finer
control at the limit ie to keep the bike at the edge of pitchover.

>
>> this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about
> technology
>> and how it works…
>
> Of course! But I do know how disk brakes work. I don't have to own them
> to know that.
>

Doesn’t sound like it sounds like your repeated comments made as they fit
your narrative.

Most folks ride within the limits of the brakes, so knowing that the bike
ability to stop and how it changes if wet. Disks are much more powerful so
you can brake later, and are only mildly reduced in the wet. Essentially
always had to baby rim brakes.

Only a few times did have almost zero brakes all low speed no hazard
moments as well I was aware of the brakes lack of power in wet conditions.

>
> You seem to like the lower hand force typical of disks. Fine, I guess,
> if that's your preference. But squeezing with 5 pounds force instead of
> 3 pounds force is not an actual problem for normal people.
>
> Did you ever have a crash or even a near miss because your rim brakes
> wouldn't stop the bike?
>
> Personally, I had one real problem on exactly one occasion. My wife and
> I were riding in very heavy pouring rain, on the first cheap ten speeds
> we bought in 1973 or so. They had very flexible "Balilla" center pull
> brakes, and chrome steel rims pockmarked with hundreds of dimples that I
> later realized acted as reservoirs of water. We tried braking for a turn
> and had almost zero braking power. But buying a pretty nice Raleigh with
> smooth aluminum rims fixed that problem acceptably. It's never occurred
> again, despite thousands of miles of rain riding. (I don't like it, but
> I do ride in rain from time to time.)
>

Most folks seem to like the feel of hydraulic disks, and well the
performance of said brakes and there general lack of maintenance needed.

Are a few retro grouches clearly and some cheaper bikes really would do
better with some rim brakes and so on, though please to see still being
sold in that market, does mean they can’t upgrade to disks but I suspect
the number who would are low.

I did or rather cable to hydraulic as well was early so very few hydraulic
road groupset about and they do look very dated now even 2018 or so as
technology has changed.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Not nearly enough as word of mouth or your mates doing it. Recently one of
my cycle club got himself a new gravel bike which has inspired 3/4 others
to so!

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:13:05 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net>:

>On 10/25/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:

[...]

>> but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be approximate and
>> conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
>
>Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed most of my
>notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we calculated the location
>for a normal riding position and for a position with the rider's butt
>scooted back as far as possible.
>
>No other takers on how to determine center of mass height? Come on, guys!

While riding? IMHO an approximation or a calculation for an intervall is
good enough, for something as varying as that.*)

A dispute including that question arose in 1995 during an argument in
the German language bicycle newsgroup. A guy warned everyone about the
grave danger of fatal falls caused by braking hard and then going over
the bars, resulting in sudden death. All bicycles should have mandatory
"brake modulators," a spring element that limits the force that can be
applied. Crazy. But there are indeed still bicycles seen now and then
having such elements in the brake cables.

Anyway, I was interested in those questions. How much braking
deceleration is necessary for this? Under what conditions is a topple
even possible?

The first concrete question is then, of course, whether or when the
resulting force vector is above or below the axis of rotation, being the
front wheels axis.

Unfortunately, I've lost my notes too, but from memory ...

Based on the geometry of my road bike
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg> and my body weight at
the time, I estimated that my front wheel would not slip when braking on
dry and clean asphalt because the rear wheel would lift off first. A
further estimation of the energy necessary to lift the whole mass - its
center of mass, that is - to the max, above the front wheel axis,
followed by a conversion to it's speed equivalent of that mass moving
horizontally resulted in about 12 km/h. In short, riding with less that
12 km/h shouldn't cause a topple. The rear wheel will be lifted, but
after the bike coming to a full stop, it will just come down again, in
reverse direction.

To verify my estimation, I tried it somewhat slower, 10 km/h perhaps and
indeed, it happened just as calculated. What came somewhat unexpected
was the experience that the whole event took quite some time - enough
time to somewhat control it. However, it is essential not to apply the
brake too abruptly. After all, it takes energy and time to set the mass
in rotation, too. In addition, it helps to somewhat control it while
going down. Last but not least, don't do it while cornering, even
slightly. A bicycle wheel doesn't like lateral force. I had to retrue a
wheel after lifting the back wheel only a few centimeters in an
emergency brake.

After that initial experiment, I lost all fear of the rear wheel lifting
off, when riding one of my road bikes. It is rarely necessary or
usefull, but sometimes after an emergency brake, I was glad to gain that
little less braking distance.

Disclaimer: Calculation and experience apply to road (racing) bicycles
geometry, utility bicycles with long wheelbase or heavy luggage on the
rear carrier are a different matter. Even with a road bike I'd suggest
to experiment carefully instead of trying to calculate and to apply the
result blindly. Calculation is good for having a baseline what to try,
though.


Notes


*) Build a large version of a balance board
<https://fitsy.in/uploads/products/312/4ac88fc45d5c40dc9e74e62834e626fd.jpg>
and position a rider and his/her bike in a balanced position there. Or
just use a board large enough, a football and four guys on the four
edges, for getting that in balance.

Going over the bars
<https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/over-the-bars.html>



--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

[AMuzi]

I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.

Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.

[AMuzi]

As with cycling generally, we practice rear weight shift for
braking based on empirical experience. I could probably
approximate CM of a static human-on-bicycle model but not an
actual dynamic cyclist while riding.

p.s. Isn't the relevant CM position a combination of height
and distance from the front wheel contact? Tandems can't do
headers for example.

[AMuzi]

Shouldn't we all have gratitude that we live in a world of
so many wonderful and varied choices, even down to bicycle
braking systems?

They all stop the bike. They all have features and foibles.
Name your poison.

[Roger Merriman]

Indeed though note that manufacturers be that bikes or groupsets said that
the market for rim bike like for like, just didn’t sell as well.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

"brake modulators"

Oh, how I hate those pernicious gizmos! Customers assume we
could not make a proper brake adjustment (which, in
fairness, cannot be done with them) and unhappy customers
are a real and present danger to the com0pany.

[Frank Krygowski]

IIRC, Jobst believed that many or most incidents of "over the bars"
crashes were exacerbated by riders not bracing themselves properly,
perhaps causing the handlebars to whip to one side. There are cyclists
(and motorcyclists) who are skilled at "nose wheelies," balancing their
bikes on the front wheel during heavy deceleration.

About determining the height of the bike+rider center of mass: We had
the person on the bike leaning against a wall. We weighed front wheel
load and rear wheel load using bathroom scales. Then with the person in
exactly the same position relative to the bike, we repeated the
measurements with the front wheel raised on a platform. The tilt put the
center of mass farther back, changing the wheel loads. From there it's a
trigonometry problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/26/2023 4:35 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim that
>> because I don't own a 15 pound bike, I can't possibly comment on things
>> like his insane top speed claims.
>>
>> Engineers have to be able to assess equipment without getting years of
>> experience with it. They do that by knowledge of physics. One relevant
>> bit of physics is that a standard bike's deceleration is limited by risk
>> of pitchover; and that limit can easily be reached with most standard
>> caliper brakes. You don't need disks for that.
>
> That’s a woefully simplistic model and thus wrong mainly due to its huge
> simplification. To reach parity a rim brake needs the speed to be be lower
> so less force, and for it to be dry and generally it to be a clean simple
> model not the dirty real world, let alone that disks modulation allow finer
> control at the limit ie to keep the bike at the edge of pitchover.

ISTM you're using fuzzy words and hypotheticals. "To reach parity"
regarding what practical effect?

I've successfully panic braked using my touring bike's cantilevers at
over 30 mph. (Sudden deer in the road.) Need to be dry and clean? I've
ridden countless miles in rain and in dirt. Finer control to keep the
bike at the edge of pitchover? I do that with rim brakes. I've taught
others how to do it.

Disks are heavily promoted, very trendy, and often the only choice
offered. But only a tiny proportion of bicyclists get real value out of
disk brakes. That's how bicycling has been able to be done for 100+
years with rim brakes, including with some cyclists pushing the envelope
by doing loaded touring in mountains, road racing at high speeds,
extreme braking for corners during criterium races, cyclocross racing
through mud, riding tandems or triples and more. Yes, muddy mountain
bikers and rainy every-day commuters sometimes do, by reducing rim wear.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

I never heard of them, but now, I hate them too.

[Catrike Rider]

So you don't want disk brake, but others do. Why is that such a
problem for you?

[Roger Merriman]

Seems a solution in search of a problem!

Roger merriman

[Radey Shouman]

I was wondering that. The cg of the bike by itself is easy, because
it's rigid and can be suspended by this or that, but not so for the
combined system. Horizontal position is easy with a scale or scales.

* Suspend the bike + rider on a platform as a pendulum, and time its
oscillations? Sounds like fun, but a bit too much of a project.

* Estimate, based on a determination of human cg in a riding-like posture,
but lying down? Doesn't seem quantitative enough to inspire.

* Put the bike & rider on an inclined plane, and use scales to measure
horizontal position of cg? Rider posture would surely change somewhat from
the horizontal position, but sounds doable in a two hour lab.

[Radey Shouman]

A man after my own heart. I too am conservatively lazy and hate new
stuff. Sorry economists.

> handlebar and if possible hydraulic disk brakes. With disk brakes I
> could have black rims and hubs which wouldn't be as visible when I'm
> camping in the woods. Plus I wouldn't have to worry about my brake
> pads getting grit in them and then grinding against my rims. Also, I
> wouldn't have any problem with forward mounted rear panniers hitting
> the brake calipers. Lastly I'd have much better stopping in snow and
> slush.

I ride very conservatively when water is really running off the roads,
because I know from experience that my rim brakes will be less
effective. I periodically touch the brakes even if I don't want to
slow, just to rub some water off the rims. That's a solution of sorts,
but perhaps not the one that is most fun.

When descending and it's really wet, I get aluminum sludge over
everything, which is a mess and hard on rims. It's about time to
replace my rims now, as they are getting hollowed out.

Despite my own personal choice, I can see that bicycle disk brakes
probably do have significant advantages.

> I switched from cantilever brakes to V-brakes on my winter bike
> because V-brake are far superior in stopping my bike that the properly
> set up and adjust cantilever brakes ever were.
>
> Cheers

--

[Roger Merriman]

> note also a fair difference between a emergency stop which aren’t common
> and predictable hard braking where riders will shift there weight back
> and rear, some bikes are easier to do this with and so on.

> I was wondering that. The cg of the bike by itself is easy, because
> it's rigid and can be suspended by this or that, but not so for the
> combined system. Horizontal position is easy with a scale or scales.
>
> * Suspend the bike + rider on a platform as a pendulum, and time its
> oscillations? Sounds like fun, but a bit too much of a project.
>
> * Estimate, based on a determination of human cg in a riding-like posture,
> but lying down? Doesn't seem quantitative enough to inspire.
>
> * Put the bike & rider on an inclined plane, and use scales to measure
> horizontal position of cg? Rider posture would surely change somewhat from
> the horizontal position, but sounds doable in a two hour lab.
>
>

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>>>> On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,

I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out
and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for
breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but
do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.

But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components,
the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include
fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly
sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to
shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams,
and much more. And that's just bike stuff.

Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companies
are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.

And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:52:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps so, but why does that bother you so?

[John B.]

I wonder about Frank.

I asked a perfectly valid question, "do people rush out and buy
something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?" I probably
should have asked, do people, of normal intelligence, rush out and buy
something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?"

Back in my younger days I smoked cigarettes, like most men in that
era, And I used to see the adds showing "The Marlboro Man", big,
strong Cowboy sort of fellow, implying that real men smoked Marlboro
cigarettes. I can't say that it ever induced me to switch cigarette
brands.

But, perhaps I'm unique? After all Frank, and Tom, spend hours and
yards of paper "marketing themselves", trying to convince readers here
of their great importance. Just Imagine, Frank has ridden a bicycle
in ten countries. Can you imagine? Ten countries and only fallen off
three times.

As for disk brakes? Why? My side pull rim brakes work and have worked
for many years now, and yes they do stop in the wet although I prefer
not to ride in the rain. But having said that I ride on roads as I
have no interest in fumbling around in the bushes.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

We just have to admit that disk brakes are marketing driven that will probably stop him. Most products are marketing driven in our economic system. I looked at my on line supplier and I see they still sell various forms of rim brakes; side pull, V brakes, cantilever and hydraulic rim brakes (4 pages):

https://www.bike-components.de/en/components/brakes/rim-brakes/?page=1

A new modern frame for rim brakes will be harder to get but I can't blame the frame manufacturers for not keeping two production lines. Do they still sell new cars with carburators instead of fuel injection or with a tape deck? As for every product get informed before you buy. If you buy the wrong product it is your own fault. The information is out there. Like Andrew always says 'choice is good' and there is plenty of choice nowadays. YMMV.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

And John has been wrong about absolutely everything.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, think about it. How much of your belief in disc brakes is market driven? Then cost, completed, over 10 times as much. They add NOTHING to the actual braking of your bike - of what value is being able to have the smaller discs clean off slightly faster than a rim? And what bicycle company is not going to be willing to sell you a disc setup for all of that money or pay professional racers to ride them despite so many pro's saying that they don't like them?

If you actually like them that is your choice to pay the premium, but how much of that is brain washing when the one supposed advantage is working better in the rain and both rim brakes and discs will lock your wheels and slide your bike out from under you in the rain? I used a lot of different brands of discs and Shimano was by far the easiest to bleed and set up, but I found no real advantage.

Of course I didn't ride them in the rain but I have ridden rim brakes without problems.

[Radey Shouman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:

[ ... ]

> And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
> of riding, how
> much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
> rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
> road disk brakes?"

This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.

For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.

In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.

But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.

The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. Who
knew he needed a knife made of steel, when obsidian or flint had always
worked so well?

[Catrike Rider]

Most people understand that one can think highly of a product but
still, for many reasons, have no use for it themselves.

[Roger Merriman]

Indeed! Or even simply better, over years every time I’ve replaced my
lights I’ve been impressed by the difference, though has personally reached
a plateau in the commute light though quite a few years old now, is good
enough, at least for the commute and dark parks/woods. In that it has a
decent spread does my new ish light for Gravel/MTB rides totally outperform
it yes? But for the commute I’m not descending at 20+ mph threading my way
through woods and what not!

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

He I'm not pushing disk brakes. I have disk brakes on the bikes where it makes sense for me (50-50). I give a shit about what brakes you are using but on the bikes where I have disk brakes they have added value for me. Those rim brakes on the descent of the Passo Sella and the Passo Gardena in the pouring rain wore me out more than the climbs did.. Disks wouldn't have done that. Yes I survived.

Lou

[John B.]

As usual Franks "arguments" are fatuous, at best and stupid most of
the time.

Stone "knives" were replaced, not by steel but by some other metal
such as copper or bronze, and later by iron and finally, at long last,
by steel.

And they were replaced not because of marketing but because stone
really is a very poor material to make cutting devices from. It is
difficult to work and is brittle.

The American "Indians" are an example. Literally stone age savages
when the "White" man arrived they immediately realized the advantage
of metal cutting devices and would lie, steal or even kill to obtain
one.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey Shouman
<sho...@comcast.net> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>[ ... ]
>
>> And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
>> of riding, how
>> much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
>> rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
>> road disk brakes?"
>
>This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
>

Well... Frank is a bit weird (:-)

>For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
>walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
>burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
>harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
>
>In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
>someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
>myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
>were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
>
>But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.

But when bicycles became available they really were innovative.
Imagine! A device that lets you move over the ground several times
faster then you can run, without all the problems of keeping a horse,
feeding a horse, cleaning up after a horse. And cheaper then a horse.
--
Cheers,

John B.