R.B.T Mt Shasta Ride

[Doug Landau]

Jay can you come down from Portland?
Tom can you come up from Oakland?
We'll ride the mtn and get on the same page

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 12:59:42 AM UTC-5, doug....@gmail.com wrote:
> Jay can you come down from Portland?

> Tom can you come up from Oakland? 2-

> We'll ride the mtn and get on the same page

Not answering for Tom or Jay. But in my travels long ago, I learned that California is a really big state. Half of California is above San Francisco. And its about 300+ miles up to Oregon. For fun I looked up the distance from Portland, Jay's home, to Mt. Shasta and its 360 miles. And from Oakland, Tom's home, its 270 miles. I'm all for bicycling. Yeah. But when you have to drive 2-3-4 times further than you are going to ride, its not worth it.

[Roger Merriman]

If you drive to MTB centres or otherwise you probably will!

Actually having checked, my normal MTB places are about 30miles out, I
rarely ride that distance on the MTB, 20 is the sweet spot, for such
terrain.

Longer tamer stuff is the Gravel bikes thing.

Due to lockdowns etc I did ride more local loops on the MTB 35 or so miles,
don’t get me wrong was fun flattening and flattering some of the rooty bits
which on the Gravel do need to pick your line, not so on the MTB which just
point at the horizon and let it float though!

But it’s hard work rolling the beasty over such distance and is totally
overkill!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

There is a local ride around Lake Chabot on a trail that is DAMNED hard. I haven't done that yet this year because of the lockdowns and the weather has left much etc. under the shadowed areas. But usually the gravel bikes easily outrun the trail bikes except on hard downhills. Some of the climbs are so difficult that it takes a full suspension to keep the wheels on the ground enough to make them. I developed a manner of making it 90% to the top on a gravel bike and stepping off like I knew what I was doing. But the downhills had a LOT of rain ruts cut into them and it is difficult to ride down that stuff. The local dirt is a clay-like powder that will harden solid as rock in the dry season and then turn back into powder as the season rolls on. with those ruts unseen under the powder. The super low gearing on the gravel bike isn't to climb steep hills but to climb long distances at relatively mild inclines. A gravel bike is so light that on a steep climb it will simply lift the front wheel and then swing around dumping you on the ground.

[Roger Merriman]

That’s geometry than weight that will cause a bike to pop it’s wheel, plus
technique. I run out of grip/fitness long before the gravel or MTB lifts
it’s wheel.

Gravel bikes don’t tend to have super low gearing, just a touch below 1-1
with the most common setups either 1 or 2 by, get the odd one with near MTB
gearing but they are fairly uncommon, and even rarer seen!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Many of the gravel trails around here are in the state parks in the Oakland hills and there are place in which you have 24% climbs. No technique is going to help you not to life a carbon fiber fork on a bike geared low enough to make it up a climb like that.

[Roger Merriman]

If it’s a true 24% it will be grip that makes one walk not balance. Ive
climbed plenty of hills with max grades into the 20/30% area, where I’m
from originally has plenty on and off road, with my MTB background while
I’m aware folks do struggle to keep the front wheel planted, it’s not a
issue for myself as essentially I’m used to such stuff.

While I do like the downhills if I’m honest my favourite is steep technical
climbs the challenge of clearing said feckers!

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

I guess I'm not clear what you think that you're saying. Explain how you can keep the front wheel on a road bike down on a 30% grade? It takes a VERY low gear to climb that and there is NO way of keeping the front wheel down on a road bike. Cyclocross people purposely use very large gears to keep from putting enough power to the rear wheel to lift it. That works if you want to pretend that you can ride 1200 watts output like a pro.

[News 2021]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 18:17:45 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:

>> While I do like the downhills if I’m honest my favourite is steep
>> technical climbs the challenge of clearing said feckers!
> I guess I'm not clear what you think that you're saying. Explain how you
> can keep the front wheel on a road bike down on a 30% grade? It takes a
> VERY low gear to climb that and there is NO way of keeping the front
> wheel down on a road bike.

You are arguing with yourself and tryig to make yr claim mot by changing
what was said. that said, frame geometry/setup only counts for so much,
then riding style/technique matters. Finally yo can swap to a different
set of muscles.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/30/2021 9:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Explain how you can keep the front wheel on a road bike down on a 30% grade? It takes a VERY low gear to climb that and there is NO way of keeping the front wheel down on a road bike.

<sigh> Wrong again, Tom.

(Perhaps) the steepest paved street in the world is Canton Ave. in
Pittsburgh, at 37%. (Some claim it's merely in second place, but no matter.)

Here's video of the annual Dirty Dozen race in Pittsburgh. Watch them
climb Canton Avenue:

https://youtu.be/NWXNvuCAxrU?t=6


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, no one is arguing that you can't climb a paved road. On such, you can stand up over the front wheel because you have almost unlimited traction. Weren't we talking about gravel/MTB type of trails where the traction can be almost non-existent to way more than you want? Or maybe I've just lost my own thread? I was saying "road bike" not because it was a bike used on the road but a road bike type of gravel bike without no suspension so that the front wheel has only the weight of the light fork.

[Roger Merriman]

Off road unless it’s very tame you’ll either loose traction or ability to
climb, since off road tends to be more technical, and energy sapping, hence
MTB tend to do better at on the steeper/technical stuff as you can be less
fussy with line choice, and less likely to stall hitting roots and what
not.

I suspect that maintaining grip which means either sitting on the saddle or
hovering over it, would limit most off road climbs to 15/20% or Thereabouts
clearly be some fire road climbs or stuff closer to a road that would be
easier to a) ride up b) grip, so a max gradient closer to what you’d manage
on tarmac but that’s a lot of variables!

I have a *climb* in summer that is a difficult to clear as it’s thick sand,
it can’t be more than 3% if that but due to the sand it’s a hard slog, and
not always doable in winter the sand is wetter so it’s easier.

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/1/2021 10:16 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:59:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/30/2021 9:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Explain how you can keep the front wheel on a road bike down on a 30% grade? It takes a VERY low gear to climb that and there is NO way of keeping the front wheel down on a road bike.
>> <sigh> Wrong again, Tom.
>>
>> (Perhaps) the steepest paved street in the world is Canton Ave. in
>> Pittsburgh, at 37%. (Some claim it's merely in second place, but no matter.)
>>
>> Here's video of the annual Dirty Dozen race in Pittsburgh. Watch them
>> climb Canton Avenue:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/NWXNvuCAxrU?t=6
>
> Frank, no one is arguing that you can't climb a paved road.

_Someone_ was saying "Explain how you can keep the front wheel on a road
bike down on a 30% grade? ... there is NO way of keeping the front wheel

down on a road bike."

The video proves that guy was wrong. But that guy will NEVER say "OK, I
was wrong." Instead he tries to deflect. What's wrong with that guy?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I had a Trek HiFi full suspension bike and the front end was heavy, the gearing was low and I could ride up things I couldn't even think of doing on a cyclocross/gravel bike, Though you could get used to running up the steepest parts and you could drop a full suspension MTB and if it was stuck in a rut. But MAN, the gravel bike would crash every other day and I always had bandages on me. I don't believe I ever crashed on the full suspension. In fact, on heavy rain ruts you could just ride through them as if they weren't even there.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm supposed to say I was wrong after you change the entire subject of discussion. Frank, we have watched you do these things forever now. Remember "You didn't hit your head"? Remember, the American medical system is third rate followed by your explanation that you have complete coverage and have no worries about medical care? Are you even aware that you do these things?

[Frank Krygowski]

I didn't change the subject. I addressed exactly what you said.

You said there was no way to keep a road bike's front wheel down on a
30% grade. I showed a video of guys doing that on an even steeper grade.

Sheesh. Take notes!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

So, I'm correct, you're too stupid to even know what you're doing. No surprise I suppose.

[Roger Merriman]

Some of the 650b Gravel bikes have near or actual MTB tires ie 1.9/2.1
which would ride though ruts and what not, better not quite point and shoot
as a full suspension MTB. But much closer to the XC MTB of old, arguably
better in some way ie better brakes!

I rarely crash, generally able to foot out save it.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

Mine have all been 700c with 32 mm tires and you really have to be careful. I even had routes where the hikers would break these ruts into powder so I could ride through them without a worry. These generally turned out to be the longest routes though since they radiated from the camp grounds. Then Obama came along and the homeless because so thick that people were living in motor homes and rotating around through the county and state parks and staying the maximum time limits then moving on to the next park. I can't even imagine living like that. And there is absolutely no way of helping these people out. The illegals live 10 people to a house and so can pay rents of mortgages that normal working people can't.

[Roger Merriman]

Since I have a decent trail MTB with full suspension, which is lovely.

My gravel bike will take 35mm with mud clearance if I lived somewhere dry
could go to 38/40 or so.

But I use the Gravel bike to ride mix together road and off road. I am a
old MTBer so I’ve had to temper it a touch, as CX tires are fragile race
tires, and Gravel are not much better, so I did rip the sidewalls out of a
few tires. Essentially stuff that can be ridden but perhaps shouldn’t!

On the whole with my MTB heritage I tend to the more technical side so I
can and do enjoy terrifying MTBer on MTB trails but on the whole temper it
as the Gravel bikes skills are riding fast on tamer stuff, and mixing in
some roads and what not.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Typically I am unimpressed with the construction of gravel tires. Even MTB tires have a very thin cord between the knobs. They always appear to me to be a flat waiting to happen but even though the routes I have traveled on gravel often have sharp rocks upon them I have very seldom gotten a flat as opposed to Joerg who talks about getting flats almost daily to listen to him. How you could get a flat with a Gatorskin is entirely outside of my experience. The only problem I've ever had with flats on a Gatorskin is Goat's head thorns and during Obama, people were out of work and would drive their steel belted tires until they were riding on the belts which would then shed wires all over the roads

[Roger Merriman]

Well it’s weight vs speed isn’t it! MTB isn’t a problem but then I use
fairly beefy trail tires rather than XC stuff, so they have armoured
sidewalls and what not, in short while it’s possible to get punctures from
thorns etc, it’s vanishing rare.

The Gravel tires are fairly light fast things, which is fine but do need to
be careful with stuff like flint as it can just rip the sidewall out.

Gatorskins where dreadful had so little grip, even in the dry! On a wet
urban roundabout terrifying!

Which is the other reason I like Gravel bikes, just not a issue grip or
potholes.

Roger Merriman