"You're not doing it right"

[AMuzi]

https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/

"study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm
of sports and penetrates the corporate world: the notion
that safety can take a back seat in the pursuit of
performance or profit. "


O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 12:51:21 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/
>
>"study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm
>of sports and penetrates the corporate world: the notion
>that safety can take a back seat in the pursuit of
>performance or profit. "

Sports has progressed from a public spectacle of lethal carnage to
something less lethal. We have a way to go before we can make the
various contact sports into something less lethal.

This article was indicated as a source for the above article:
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925753523002734>
Click on the black PDF button near the top of the page for a more
readable format.

The article is typical of the "Nobody follows the rules. Therefore,
more rules are needed" mentality.

Table 1 show a list of recent cycling mechanical failures. Most are
"handlebar failure" and two are "steerer tube failure". I suppose it
might be useful to strengthen the handlebars before applying
additional safety measures.

>O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!

Marxist? I'm not sure which political label might be appropriate for
those who believe that ANYTHING is justifiable if it can "save just
one life". The ultimate expression of a safe sport is baseball, where
the perfect game, a shutout, is where nothing interesting happens.
Hopefully, cycling will not follow the same beaten path.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 12:51:21 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>

>https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/
>
>"study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm
>of sports and penetrates the corporate world: the notion
>that safety can take a back seat in the pursuit of
>performance or profit. "
>
>
>O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!

Well. what can we expect when the government, the media, education
cabal, the medication peddlers, and more are telling us how awful our
lives will be if we don't follow their instructions.

[Tom Kunich]

As it turns out, we have people preying for another Gulag Archipelago so that they can force you to do as they please or kill you for not doing so. Frank is the perfect example of this. While at a distance I have plenty of time to cool down - things said like this in my presence could solicit a rather painful warning that we are free to do as we please.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/11/2023 1:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/
>
> "study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm of sports
> and penetrates the corporate world: the notion that safety can take a
> back seat in the pursuit of performance or profit. "

Well, someone found a way to get published. That doesn't mean they made
any sense.

The paper didn't hold my interest enough to even skim through it all the
way. But the authors seem to think that bicycle racing (on a ~15 pound
vehicle, typical speed ~25 mph) should have the same "safety"
bureaucracy as Formula 1 racing, with 1800 pound cars hitting 200 mph.
And this is based on five incidents of handlebar failure? That's weird.

ISTM that neither the rider, mechanics or teams want handlebar failures.
Instituting a "safety culture" that says "No more handlebar failures!"
will change nothing.

> O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!

I don't believe that fits Marx's definition of Marxism. You shouldn't
overuse trigger words.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/11/2023 1:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/
>>
>> "study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm of sports
>> and penetrates the corporate world: the notion that safety can take a
>> back seat in the pursuit of performance or profit. "
>
> Well, someone found a way to get published. That doesn't mean they made
> any sense.
>
> The paper didn't hold my interest enough to even skim through it all the
> way. But the authors seem to think that bicycle racing (on a ~15 pound
> vehicle, typical speed ~25 mph) should have the same "safety"
> bureaucracy as Formula 1 racing, with 1800 pound cars hitting 200 mph.
> And this is based on five incidents of handlebar failure? That's weird.
>
> ISTM that neither the rider, mechanics or teams want handlebar failures.
> Instituting a "safety culture" that says "No more handlebar failures!"
> will change nothing.

Indeed I suspect that the UCI weight limit for example isn’t needed though
as evidenced by Stefan Kung while they have a head injury protocol clearly
they aren’t following it, athletes will not stop of their own choice as one
of the symptoms of concussion is the desire to keep going, “I’m fine” and
so on.

Nature of road cycling does make it challenging, ie can’t for example have
a substitute while they are assessed.

>
>> O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!
>
> I don't believe that fits Marx's definition of Marxism. You shouldn't
> overuse trigger words.

Indeed doesn’t sound remotely Marxis

Roger Merriman
>

[Tom Kunich]

Right now they can make full suspension 29ers that weigh under the UCI road limit. Never doubt the foolishness of a pro with visions of grandeur. EVERYONE that could afford it was taking drugs even though they knew that it could cause cancer and shorten their lifespans. I have no doubt that they are still doping but with the present health passport they have to be very careful perhaps to the point that their health won't be noticeably effected.

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 21:50:38 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

Well, the solution seems obvious. Simply install a speed control on
all racing bicycles that will restrict the maximum speed to, oh say, 5
mph.

Which may sound illogical but no more so then the original "report".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 12:51:21 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>

>https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/
>
>"study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm
>of sports and penetrates the corporate world: the notion
>that safety can take a back seat in the pursuit of
>performance or profit. "
>
>
>O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!

What is a "Marxist expert"?

Someone who advocates paying people not to work? To enjoy a government
furnished retirement? To pay unwed women to have children? To,
essentially provide free collage for some people?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

'penetrates the corporate world... pursuit of ... profits'

It's a common faux analysis and misplaced cause (of
everything Marxist authors dislike) to besmirch any aspect
of free markets.

And typically unrelated to the supposed evils or failures,
as usual.

[AMuzi]

Well, yes,

"Ye shall know them by their works."

[John B.]

The Articles of Confederation, Article 2:
" Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and
every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this
Confederation expressly delegated."

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

Road bikes, absolutely could and can be sub 7 kg at least at the pro level.
Though with the more focus on aero not sure how close to the limit they
are.

I suspect for a XC MTB even a hardtail to reach sub 7kg you’d need to make
some performance compromises.

Bit like some of the kit at hill climb bikes, ie ultralight brakes that do
work but not effectively and so on.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 10:00:27 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

The "lightest" bike seems to be one built by a German guy named Gunter
Mai who logged over 20,000km on the machine for a couple years and it
weighed at around 3.2kg. He has now built a lighter one weighing 2.7
kg. (:-)
10 speed cassette, double chain ring, total 20 speed
https://antranik.org/worlds-lightest-road-bike-at-2-7kg/
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

The claim that someone is selling a 29er FS under 15 lbs is complete bullshit.

[Roger Meriman]

Most of the hill climb bikes tend to be under the UCI limit but not by
much, get a few headline 4kg but would seem performance trumps absolute
weight.

Note UCI doesn’t run these events.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

If anything I’d expect weight to climb as XC races are becoming more
technical at least I’m told!

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 1:51:26 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/
>
> "study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm
> of sports and penetrates the corporate world: the notion
> that safety can take a back seat in the pursuit of
> performance or profit. "
>
>
> O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!
> --

there's a lot wrong with that article, but little of it (if anything) smacks of Marxism. Not even your poorly parsed edit 'penetrates the corporate world... pursuit of ... profits'.

I realize you advocate for a completely anarchistic society, but advocating for an organization to follow its own rules in the interest of safety isn't indicative of anything other than advocating for an organization to follow its own rules in the interest of safety. From reading your posts over the years, it's easy to conclude that you might applaud the complete banning of any sanctioning body for competitive cycling. Indeed, there was a movement many years ago (and championed by domestic pro cyclist Adam Myerson) to "burn it down". Sure - lets completely eliminate any setting of standards within the the sport and allow for the pursuit of performance and profit at any cost. What could go wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB1LuCUovW4

[AMuzi]

Right. States are sovereign and are, as they ought to be,
the 'laboratories of democracy'.

https://www.northamerican.com/migration-map

And people vote on policy with their feet.

Federalizing such policies is beyond the Constitution's
scope, as you correctly noted. More explicitly:

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-10/

[AMuzi]

Well, possible if perhaps not optimal for intended use maybe:
https://bikerumor.com/bfs2018-the-worlds-lightest-29er-mountain-bikes-are-a-scott-spark-scale/

Note the date on that,

[AMuzi]

Extrapolating from rider injuries to corporate profits is a
leap of fanaticism not logic. No entity's shareholders want
rider injuries in pro racing and in fact they are bad for
business.

[Roger Meriman]

Those disks look like they would warp just if you looked at them the wrong
way! Be fine on fire roads and similar and for 2015 sort of gravel type
bike stuff the london 2012 XC mountain bike course is very much rideable by
a gravel bike bar perhaps some of the drop offs!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

At one time Flunky used to have the ability to read. I suppose that disappeared when he claimed to be an engineer. I said that a sub 15 kg full suspension 29er COULD be built, not that it presently was being built. Even my Ridley is 8 kg because I wouldn't pay for superlight parts. I could save a full kilogram in wheels and tires alone. But I prefer reliability and braking to a kg which I couldn't feel. I did have a Look KG 685 that was 16 lbs with heavy wheels and tire and a Chorus group in a 58 cm so plainly building superlight bikes is easy now.

[Tom Kunich]

My friend the cop who lives in Phoenix tells me that many team mechanics winter there and they've told him that they have a car that follows the broom wagon and picks up all of the carbon fiber failures so that they are not photographed. So yes it must be very bad for business.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/11/2023 9:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/11/2023 4:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/11/2023 1:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> https://cyclingindustry.news/elite-cycling-has-a-safety-problem-says-report/
>>>
>>> "study unearths a systemic issue that goes beyond the realm of sports
>>> and penetrates the corporate world: the notion that safety can take a
>>> back seat in the pursuit of performance or profit. "

...

>>
>>> O deliver us from 'experts' especially Marxist experts!
>>
>> I don't believe that fits Marx's definition of Marxism. You shouldn't
>> overuse trigger words.
>>
>
> 'penetrates the corporate world... pursuit of ... profits'
>
> It's a common faux analysis and misplaced cause (of everything Marxist
> authors dislike) to besmirch any aspect of free markets.

Sorry, Andrew, while I disagree with the slant of the article under
discussion, I just don't believe that "free markets" should be _totally_
free. Profit-making companies have a long, long history of putting
profits above safety, and of externalizing their problems, letting
others deal with them.

As I've mentioned, before I was born, my grandfather was killed in an
industrial accident that OSHA would have prevented, had it existed. I
would have liked to meet him.

But that company and its allies in the industry also made the local
river into an industrial sewer. It's been almost 50 years that their
pollution has been stopped, and it's only recently that the river has
resumed some appearance of normality. But people are still warned not to
eat many fish, and not to stand where they'll sink into the industrial
waste muck just under the surface.

Other examples abound. Companies need at least some reasonable regulation.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Still, the FS one is over 17 pounds. Is someone selling one under 15
pounds?

Not that I'm interested in one. Stupid light, chasing diminishing
returns, etc. etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/12/2023 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> My friend the cop who lives in Phoenix tells me that many team mechanics winter there and they've told him that they have a car that follows the broom wagon and picks up all of the carbon fiber failures so that they are not photographed.

:-) Ah, such imagination! Tom, why haven't you added fantasy novels and
movie scripts to your long list of purported achievements?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Very unlikely to be faster or perform better, even within the uk hill climb
doesn’t seem to go that low, particularly the folks who win!

Full suspension MTB light weight rotors and tires are asking for trouble,
in terms of performance ie grip/braking let alone durability.

Need to be used in quite narrow type of areas/terrain.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

"while Gustav has got the bike down as low as 7.33kg with the same light and sketchy wheel setup as on the hardtail, the complete build here uses some DT Swiss rims & Dugast tubulars for a more race-ready 7.86kg (17.33lb) complete weight."

Tom wrote "Right now they can make full suspension 29ers that weigh under the UCI road limit"
The UCI road limit is 15 pounds (6.8 Kg)

7.33 > 6.8

> Note the date on that,

and?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Funny coming from someone who doesn't remember what he wrote a few hours ago

> I said that a sub 15 kg full suspension 29er COULD be built, not that it presently was being built.

No, you wrote "Right now they can make full suspension 29ers that weigh under the UCI road limit. "

The UCI road limit is 15 pounds (6.8 Kg)

No one, not even from the link Andrew provided, is making a FS 29r under 15 pounds.

You're still a fucking idiot.